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BossChief
06-05-2010, 08:21 PM
http://www.nfl.com/news/story?id=09000d5d818749bc&template=with-video-with-comments&confirm=true

Conventional wisdom suggests that defenses are built from front to back, but the Kansas Chiefs are attempting to revive their dismal defense by restoring the proud tradition of their secondary.

From the Emmitt Thomas-led units of the late 1960's to the star-studded crews of the 90s that featured Pro Bowlers Albert Lewis, Kevin Ross, Deron Cherry, James Hasty and Dale Carter, the Chiefs have always excelled when their secondary led the way.
Associated Press
The Chiefs' pass defense was subpar last year in just about every category. Take a look at the unit's stats:
Secondary concerns


Total

Rank
Yards

3,707

22
Passer rating

87.1

20
TDs

25

T-20
40-plus yard passes

16

T-29

Last season, however, the Chiefs' secondary greatly contributed to the team's defensive woes. The unit was repeatedly victimized by the big play, and an inability to stop the deep ball resulted in the 22nd-ranked pass defense.

The Chiefs allowed the third-highest total of completions of 40 yards or more (16), and surrendered 25 passing touchdowns, which tied for 20th in the league. With the secondary unable to keep the ball from flying over their heads, the Chiefs finished 29th in scoring defense with a whopping average of 26.5 points per game.

Given the ineptitude of the defense as a whole, coach Todd Haley replaced coordinator Clancy Pendergast with Romeo Crennel during the offseason.

Crennel, who sat out the 2009 season after being fired by the Cleveland Browns following a 24-40 stint as their coach, comes to Kansas City with an excellent reputation as a defensive coordinator after serving as Bill Belichick's right-hand man in New England.

Known for using a clever blend of coverage and pressures, Crennel's system is deeply rooted in a "quarter-quarter-half" cover scheme that has the ability to suffocate offenses if executed properly.

The field is split into quarters with the strong corner (typically the left corner because most offenses tilt right) and the strong safety each responsible for covering a quarter of the field. On the weak-side, the boundary corner and free safety play a half-field coverage to create a double team on the split end (X-receiver). With the corner playing a "cloud" technique (corner is aligned three-to-five yards off the receiver forcing an inside release on all routes to ensure that the safety is able to stay on top of the receiver down the field) to disrupt the release of the receiver, the scheme can make it difficult for the quarterback to find open receivers.

In Kansas City, Crennel has the pieces in the secondary to enjoy tremendous success utilizing a system that puts all of the pressure on the strong corner and strong safety.

Brandon Flowers, the team's starting left corner, is a promising young player with the skills to develop into a star. Though he entered the league regarded as too short (five-foot-nine) and slow to be an elite corner, Flowers has proved his detractors wrong by routinely locking down the opposition's top receiver. He is physical and tenacious, and makes it tough on wideouts to create separation out of their break. With impressive ball skills to boot (his five interceptions led the team last season), Flowers has the ability to handle the one-on-one matchups that fall on the shoulders of the strong corner.

Eric Berry, the fifth overall pick in the 2010 draft, possesses the versatility to become a difference-maker at strong safety. As a big hitter with corner-like cover skills, Berry can function as the eighth-defender in the box on run downs, while also taking on the challenge of covering tight ends or slot receivers in passing situations. In addition, his sneaky rush skills will allow Crennel to use him as blitzer off the edge in select packages.

While some have criticized the Chiefs for using their first-round pick on a defensive back instead of addressing their pass rush, the need for a hybrid player of Berry's pedigree is a requirement for Crennel's scheme, and his presence could lead to a defensive revival.

Though the Chiefs' secondary will ultimately be the key, Crennel must also find a way to get more production from his front seven.

In looking for ways to juice up a pass rush that only generated 22 sacks a season ago, he will have to devise a game plan that creates favorable matchups for Tamba Hali. The fifth-year pro led the team with 8.5 sacks, and has the speed to wreak havoc off the edges. With another year under his belt as an outside linebacker, Hali could post double-digit sack totals for the first time in his career.

Crennel would have an easier time creating favorable situations for Hali and others if the defensive line could do a better job against the run on early downs. Last season, opponents rushed for 4.7 yards a carry, and the duo of Tyson Jackson and Glenn Dorsey failed to create enough negative plays to put opponents in long yardage situations.

Dorsey, who struggled making the transition from 4-3 defensive tackle to 3-4 defensive end, is critical to the success of their run defense with his quickness and athleticism. Though he lacks the ideal length to play the position, the scheme can be tweaked in a way to get him into spots where he can become a force. If he can create any kind of disruption on a consistent basis, the pass rush and secondary will ultimately benefit.

Given the Chiefs' 6-35 record over the past 41 games, the team's decision to overhaul its woeful defense is hardly surprising, but relying on the secondary to spark the turnaround is an ode to defensive tradition in Kansas City.

Haley and Co. are taking a nostalgic view towards rebuilding the Chiefs. Time will soon tell if the reflective approach will yield more wins.

LetsSignRussell
06-05-2010, 08:22 PM
are they really hoping that or is the writer making up bs

BossChief
06-05-2010, 08:25 PM
2/3 of their top picks going to the secondary...

Von Dumbass
06-05-2010, 08:29 PM
The secondary is only as good as the front seven.

KurtCobain
06-05-2010, 08:33 PM
The secondary is only as good as the front seven.

You're such a tool.

Steve
06-05-2010, 08:37 PM
If this gets a defense like the ones we had early to mid 90s this will be fun.

BossChief
06-05-2010, 08:42 PM
The secondary is only as good as the front seven.

I agree with this, for the most part anyway. But the NFL is changing more and more into a passing league with the way the rules are making it easier to do so. You need guys that can cover in space and make plays on the ball.

If you dont have 4 guys that can cover back there, teams will pick you apart game in and game out.

CupidStunt
06-05-2010, 08:45 PM
The secondary is only as good as the front seven.

Hence why McTeballs traded a future 1st for Mighty Mouse to be Denver's nickelback (which he can't even win the job for).

milkman
06-05-2010, 08:59 PM
I agree with this, for the most part anyway. But the NFL is changing more and more into a passing league with the way the rules are making it easier to do so. You need guys that can cover in space and make plays on the ball.

If you dont have 4 guys that can cover back there, teams will pick you apart game in and game out.

It still comes down to one thing.

If you can't get pressure on the QB, then QBs will pick the secondary apart, regardless of the quality of that secondary.

The entire prmise of this article, that the Chiefs excelled on defense in privious eras because of the secondary is absolute bull.

The defense in the 60s excelled because the front 7 for the Chiefs was one of the best in all of football.

The defense of the 80s was pretty damn good, even though the team didn't win a lot of games because the front 7 was pretty damn good.

That 80s secondary was outstaning, but they still needed the players in front of them to do thier jobs.

He goes on to talk about the defense struggling because Dorsey and Jackson struggled.

That's bull also.

Jackson struggled.

But Dorsey played pretty damn good.
The problem is that he didn't get any help from anyone else in the front 7, except from Hali as a pass rusher.

In short, whoever wrote this is a clueless fucking dumbass.

Ebolapox
06-05-2010, 09:08 PM
yeah, he shoots himself in the foot when he claims dorsey doesn't have much length (heh, that's what she said). he has the arms of a gorilla supposedly. freak arms.

Von Dumbass
06-05-2010, 10:00 PM
Hence why McTeballs traded a future 1st for Mighty Mouse to be Denver's nickelback (which he can't even win the job for).

He also brought in Ronald Fields, Andra Davis, Ryan McBean and Robert Ayers before he drafted Alphonso Smith.

el borracho
06-05-2010, 10:12 PM
Uh, wouldn't matter if we had Champ Bailey, Ronnie Lott, Troy Polamalu and Deion Sanders back there, if you don't pressure the quarterback, you won't succeed. Jeez, didn't the Pats win with WRs playing corner?

milkman
06-05-2010, 10:15 PM
He also brought in Ronald Fields, Andra Davis, Ryan McBean and Robert Ayers before he drafted Alphonso Smith.

Jesus, just shut the fuck up, dumbass.

Chief Roundup
06-05-2010, 10:37 PM
Uhh without reading everything. Hasty and Carter were good but without Neil Smith, and Derrick Thomas they wouldn't of been that good. The Trenches are where the game is won or lost on both sides of the ball. Period

Rain Man
06-05-2010, 10:49 PM
Is Berry seriously going to be our strong safety? I had always assumed he'd be a free safety.

el borracho
06-05-2010, 10:54 PM
Is Berry seriously going to be our strong safety? I had always assumed he'd be a free safety.

The official word from the organization was that they wanted their safeties to be interchangeable. I assume that means Berry will move about a bit.

Rain Man
06-05-2010, 10:56 PM
The official word from the organization was that they wanted their safeties to be interchangeable. I assume that means Berry will move about a bit.


That's better. I'd just hate to see a guy who's supposedly a ball hawk playing up in the box a lot. It would seem like a misuse of his talents.

lostcause
06-06-2010, 04:32 AM
That's better. I'd just hate to see a guy who's supposedly a ball hawk playing up in the box a lot. It would seem like a misuse of his talents.

Well via the description in the text of strong and free safety, (if i'm understanding crennel's vision that strong safety plays off the tight end and free safety is playing the weak side) it makes more sense to me to have Berry and Flowers lined up strong side where they have individual assignments and Berry has the option of covering the tight end. Whereas on the weak side, Carr and Page (?) will be able to double team wide recievers releasing alone. Additionally, I would rather have Berry playing the run side of the oline, since he can, well, tackle.

RustShack
06-06-2010, 06:46 AM
I think people forget that Hali was second in the NFL in pressures... that Jackson was a rookie... and Dorsey was only in his second year..

boogblaster
06-06-2010, 07:21 AM
Did someone say we needed a NT ....

Hog Farmer
06-06-2010, 07:31 AM
The secondary is only as good as the front seven.



REP !

cdcox
06-06-2010, 07:34 AM
Uhh without reading everything. Hasty and Carter were good but without Neil Smith, and Derrick Thomas they wouldn't of been that good. The Trenches are where the game is won or lost on both sides of the ball. Period

Hasty and Carter were good. Period. Hasty had great technique and Carter had elite closing speed and athleticism.

Maybe what you meant to say is that the pass rush provided by Smith and Thomas contributed just as much to the success of the passing defense as the excellent coverage provided by the secondary.

To have an elite pass defense you have to have both a strong pass rush and secondary. To have an elite passing game you have to have both a great QB and great receivers (an adequate OL is sufficient). It is a team game.

milkman
06-06-2010, 08:07 AM
Hasty and Carter were good. Period. Hasty had great technique and Carter had elite closing speed and athleticism.

Maybe what you meant to say is that the pass rush provided by Smith and Thomas contributed just as much to the success of the passing defense as the excellent coverage provided by the secondary.

To have an elite pass defense you have to have both a strong pass rush and secondary. To have an elite passing game you have to have both a great QB and great receivers (an adequate OL is sufficient). It is a team game.

Hasty and Carter could have been the best corner duo ever, but a QB who is allowed to sit in the pocket will pick apart a secondary all day long, no matter how good that secondary is.

Chiefless
06-06-2010, 08:55 AM
Elite secondaries create more coverage sacks for the front seven. That being said, I'd be surprised to see the Chiefs record any sacks from the middle of their D...coverage or otherwise. This D with a MLB that can get through OLs or a NT that can cave in the pocket would go from barely average to top 10, IMO. So, while I think The Chiefs improved their overall Defense, I believe the middle of the field will be open again a lot in both running and passing situations.

milkman
06-06-2010, 09:15 AM
Elite secondaries create more coverage sacks for the front seven. That being said, I'd be surprised to see the Chiefs record any sacks from the middle of their D...coverage or otherwise. This D with a MLB that can get through OLs or a NT that can cave in the pocket would go from barely average to top 10, IMO. So, while I think The Chiefs improved their overall Defense, I believe the middle of the field will be open again a lot in both running and passing situations.

Coverage sacks are not all that common.

Chiefless
06-06-2010, 09:40 AM
Coverage sacks are not all that common.

True, but they are more likely to occur on teams with good-to-great secondaries. The chiefs should have more than 22 sacks this year. The way this off-season went KC is counting on getting pressure by forcing the QB to consistently hold the ball longer. If that happens, then a bunch of those plays where they were a half-step late in getting to the QB will turn into big plays for the D. I think it's the hard way to do it, but it is what it is I guess. We'll know if it worked in a couple of months. IMO, KC will have a better D than last year, but they will still be below average unless Crennel's scheme creates an surprise stud in the middle.

Saccopoo
06-06-2010, 10:22 AM
That's better. I'd just hate to see a guy who's supposedly a ball hawk playing up in the box a lot. It would seem like a misuse of his talents.

As stated previously, 3-4 safeties are interchangeable in their duties versus a 4-3 system which requires that a SS play "in the box" a lot more than his 3-4 counterpart. It's kinda why Pollard was an expendable casualty for the Chiefs last season, but contributed for the Houston Texans. He's a pure 4-3 SS, and was a borderline liability in the 3-4, as evidence by his incredibly horrific performance in that pre-season game which saw him released by the Chiefs soon after.

By drafting Berry, the Chiefs substantially improved the defense as it provides a substantial increase in speed and versatility at the safety position - something that was severely lacking last season. (Though, I think that Arenas might have an even greater impact on the defense initially than Berry, as it was our nickelback coverage that was routinely gouged for career highlight numbers. He excelled at just that thing at Alabama.)

Mr. Laz
06-06-2010, 10:24 AM
pretty much got to since they decided not to upgrade the front 7

Mr. Laz
06-06-2010, 10:26 AM
As stated previously, 3-4 safeties are interchangeable in their duties versus a 4-3 system which requires that a SS play "in the box" a lot more than his 3-4 counterpart. It's kinda why Pollard was an expendable casualty for the Chiefs last season, but contributed for the Houston Texans. He's a pure 4-3 SS, and was a borderline liability in the 3-4, as evidence by his incredibly horrific performance in that pre-season game which saw him released by the Chiefs soon after.

By drafting Berry, the Chiefs substantially improved the defense as it provides a substantial increase in speed and versatility at the safety position - something that was severely lacking last season. (Though, I think that Arenas might have an even greater impact on the defense initially than Berry, as it was our nickelback coverage that was routinely gouged for career highlight numbers. He excelled at just that thing at Alabama.)
*cough* weren't you the one who didn't want Berry?

you said a safety wasn't worth that pick and wanted an OT iirc

Saccopoo
06-06-2010, 10:43 AM
*cough* weren't you the one who didn't want Berry?

you said a safety wasn't worth that pick and wanted an OT iirc

Actually, I was pretty happy with the Berry pick. I'm not a big positional value guy, so I didn't mind them spending it on a player of Berry's caliber. Sure, I would have preferred Okung as I'm not convinced of Albert's protection capabilities on the edge, but I'm not disappointed with the selection of Berry. It was a definite position of need.

Okung was my #1 choice, but Berry was a very close #2.

As well, I thought that the Arenas pick was a very good choice for the previously mentioned reasons.

milkman
06-06-2010, 10:45 AM
Actually, I was pretty happy with the Berry pick. I'm not a big positional value guy, so I didn't mind them spending it on a player of Berry's caliber. Sure, I would have preferred Okung as I'm not convinced of Albert's protection capabilities on the edge, but I'm not disappointed with the selection of Berry. It was a definite position of need.

Okung was my #1 choice, but Berry was a very close #2.

As well, I thought that the Arenas pick was a very good choice for the previously mentioned reasons.

I still find it amazing that you can watch Okung get pushed straight back into Zac Robinson and think he's better at protecting the edge.

Saccopoo
06-06-2010, 10:50 AM
I still find it amazing that you can watch Okung get pushed straight back into Zac Robinson and think he's better at protecting the edge.

Okung will be Hall of Fame eligible by game 3 in the '10 season.

mcaj22
06-06-2010, 11:31 AM
top 5 secondary and bottom 5 front seven, I'm sure that will yield the most marginal results. Great we will hold QBs to 50.0 QB passer ratings while giving some unknown running back Joe McDuggle a 250 yard rushing career day putting him on the NFL map for a paycheck.

cdcox
06-06-2010, 11:40 AM
Hasty and Carter could have been the best corner duo ever, but a QB who is allowed to sit in the pocket will pick apart a secondary all day long, no matter how good that secondary is.

By the same token, you can rush the best front 7 in football at Peyton Manning all day long, but if you don't have guys that can hold coverage for 3.5 seconds, he'll carve you alive.*

*Playoffs excluded.

mcaj22
06-06-2010, 11:43 AM
terrible argument if you exclude playoffs, because including playoffs is the counter argument to the Peyton Manning theory.

xztop12
06-06-2010, 01:06 PM
Uh, wouldn't matter if we had Champ Bailey, Ronnie Lott, Troy Polamalu and Deion Sanders back there, if you don't pressure the quarterback, you won't succeed. Jeez, didn't the Pats win with WRs playing corner?

You do realize that we had 0 slot cornerbacks last year right? I dont know what the hell Pioli was thinking quite honestly, but to go into a season with no nickle corner is inexcusable. regardless of front 7 or pass rush

CoMoChief
06-06-2010, 01:14 PM
You always start within the trenches. Every good defense gets pressure on the QB.

Every good offense has a good Oline. Not that hard to figure out.

Can't believe we didn't focus on the front 7 this offseason. Hopefully we will next season, I guess you can't fix everything all at once. Pioli's first offseason was just a horrible and major disaster. If he can string together a few more offseasons like this current one, along with a couple drafts that pluck out 2-3 starters each, this team will be playoff bound soon.

That also all depends on how shitty Cassel plays.

chiefzilla1501
06-06-2010, 02:55 PM
You always start within the trenches. Every good defense gets pressure on the QB.

Every good offense has a good Oline. Not that hard to figure out.

Can't believe we didn't focus on the front 7 this offseason. Hopefully we will next season, I guess you can't fix everything all at once. Pioli's first offseason was just a horrible and major disaster. If he can string together a few more offseasons like this current one, along with a couple drafts that pluck out 2-3 starters each, this team will be playoff bound soon.

That also all depends on how shitty Cassel plays.

This statement is wrong on a lot of levels. The Colts and Patriots don't have all-world o-lines. They have QBs with lightning quick releases which neutralizes the need to have one. The Jets have some pretty decent pass rushers, but the fact is, that team revolves around having an absolutely suffocating secondary. Many teams in fact are built on good not great d-lines with ballhawk safeties who thrive on creating turnovers.

Of course the Chiefs can't be playoff bound by having the kind of front 7 they have today. But if in a few years, they have one of the best secondaries in the league, solid but unspectacular line play and inside linebackers, one stud pass rusher, and a solid OLB on the other end, you could still have a really good defense in Romeo's scheme. I think it's absolutely possible to build around the secondary and make some sacrifices in the front 7.

RedThat
06-06-2010, 03:59 PM
I remember in the 90's when we had a good secondary.

Our corners were so good in coverage, we used to take advantage of the blitz more often.

Mind you, we had DT. However, I still remember DT had a brief stint when he was injured that forced him to miss about 7 games in the '97 season and the Chiefs still managed to get pressure on the QB. I think a large part of it came from the secondary since the coverages were outstanding which enabled us to blitz more.

That team had good speed and excellent blitzers. Not sure this team does? But I also think the game was different back then where CB's were allowed to be more physical by jamming and holding up their receiver counterparts more causing disruption in the timing of their routes. Can't do that today or else you get nailed for holding or illegal contact which sucks.

I think in the 90's you could get away with having a medicore front seven if you have an excellent secondary because there was lesser emphasis on holding and a lot of it had to with outstanding coverages that made for a better pass rush. In today's game Im not so sure. I don't think you can get away with having a good secondary and a not so good front seven because of the rules and just the fact that the game has changed.

*I wish it was like before. Let these guys play defense more.

el borracho
06-06-2010, 04:53 PM
You do realize that we had 0 slot cornerbacks last year right? I dont know what the hell Pioli was thinking quite honestly, but to go into a season with no nickle corner is inexcusable. regardless of front 7 or pass rush

What? Of course we had corners playing the slot last year. You may not have liked the players, but it's not like the Chiefs never played a nickel defense in 2009.

Additionally, I'm not sure what that has to do with my original post. It doesn't matter how talented a secondary is, if there is no pass rush then eventually receivers will get open. That is just how it is. No one can cover forever.

chiefzilla1501
06-06-2010, 05:11 PM
What? Of course we had corners playing the slot last year. You may not have liked the players, but it's not like the Chiefs never played a nickel defense in 2009.

Additionally, I'm not sure what that has to do with my original post. It doesn't matter how talented a secondary is, if there is no pass rush then eventually receivers will get open. That is just how it is. No one can cover forever.

The original point was right. We have tall, 5'11, bigger guys. At nickel back, it's better to be low to the ground, quick, and able to make quick sharp cuts. You can't just plant a bunch of out of position players on a nickel defense and say they had any chance in hell at success.

As for the original post, the primary point of the original article is that the Chiefs are prioritizing the secondary over the front 7. If you have an outstanding secondary, you don't have to have an outstanding front 7. It would be nice, but you can't have it all in this league.

OnTheWarpath58
06-06-2010, 05:21 PM
The original point was right. We have tall, 5'11, bigger guys. At nickel back, it's better to be low to the ground, quick, and able to make quick sharp cuts. You can't just plant a bunch of out of position players on a nickel defense and say they had any chance in hell at success.

As for the original post, the primary point of the original article is that the Chiefs are prioritizing the secondary over the front 7. If you have an outstanding secondary, you don't have to have an outstanding front 7. It would be nice, but you can't have it all in this league.

Well, no one has much right to bitch about a lack of nickle CB's now, considering we've spent a 4th and 2nd round pick in back-to-back drafts on the position.

RedThat
06-06-2010, 05:22 PM
By the same token, you can rush the best front 7 in football at Peyton Manning all day long, but if you don't have guys that can hold coverage for 3.5 seconds, he'll carve you alive.*

*Playoffs excluded.

In other words, you need everything.

milkman
06-06-2010, 05:28 PM
Well, no one has much right to bitch about a lack of nickle CB's now, considering we've spent a 4th and 2nd round pick in back-to-back drafts on the position.

It appears we spent a 4th round pick last year on a project CB, who now is a project safety.

We spent a 1st and 5th round pick on safeties this year.

Seems that safety is the defensive version of TE.

We collect them.

OnTheWarpath58
06-06-2010, 05:33 PM
It appears we spent a 4th round pick last year on a project CB, who now is a project safety.

We spent a 1st and 5th round pick on safeties this year.

Seems that safety is the defensive version of TE.

We collect them.

I'm not sure they'll keep Washington at safety, I think they might just be working him out there to see if they might have something since they just invested a high 2 in Arenas.

I'd like to start collecting DT's, ILB's and pass rushing OLB's, personally.

Without them, the back 7 won't matter much. You can't ask these kids to cover for 7 seconds.

That's what makes Flowers even more impressive to me.

This team has no pass rush, he's forced to cover WAY too long, and ProFootballFocus rated him the 5th best CB in the league last year.

Kid is severely underrated around the NFL. Imagine how good he could be if he had some help up front?

cdcox
06-06-2010, 05:36 PM
In other words, you need everything.

I just invented the rule of 2. If you have two very good players with each unit, (offensive backfield, receivers, OL, DL, LB and secondary) and average players elsewhere, you are basically a dynasty. I would be willing to live with average players on the OL before I would any of the other 5 areas.

milkman
06-06-2010, 05:44 PM
I'm not sure they'll keep Washington at safety, I think they might just be working him out there to see if they might have something since they just invested a high 2 in Arenas.

I'd like to start collecting DT's, ILB's and pass rushing OLB's, personally.

Without them, the back 7 won't matter much. You can't ask these kids to cover for 7 seconds.

That's what makes Flowers even more impressive to me.

This team has no pass rush, he's forced to cover WAY too long, and ProFootballFocus rated him the 5th best CB in the league last year.

Kid is severely underrated around the NFL. Imagine how good he could be if he had some help up front?

I think the switch will prove to be permanent.

As for Flowers, if this team had a pass rush, he's be up there just in the discussion as the best corner not named Revis, Woodson, or Namde (since I can't spell his last name. Asomuogha?).

Mr. Laz
06-06-2010, 05:46 PM
the main thing is to be solid everywhere and then have greatness in certain spots that make everyone else better.

Traditional thinking says "great QB" makes everyone on offense better "great pass rush" makes everyone on defense better.

Traditional but not mandatory ... the jets are almost the exact opposite. They use "great Oline" to make everyone on offense better and "great coverage" to make everyone on defense better.

Some teams try to scheme to hide positions to give more emphasis on their "great" area ala Baltimore pretty much sacrificing offense to help their defense stay great.

I guess the Chiefs are hoping to have a generally solid offense with a great coverage unit to make up for a weak defense.

:shrug:

long shot

cdcox
06-06-2010, 05:51 PM
the main thing is to be solid everywhere and then have greatness in certain spots that make everyone else better.

Traditional thinking says "great QB" makes everyone on offense better "great pass rush" makes everyone on defense better.

Traditional but not mandatory ... the jets are almost the exact opposite. They use "great Oline" to make everyone on offense better and "great coverage" to make everyone on defense better.

Some teams try to scheme to hide positions to give more emphasis on their "great" area ala Baltimore pretty much sacrificing offense to help their defense stay great.

I guess the Chiefs are hoping to have a generally solid offense with a great coverage unit to make up for a weak defense.

:shrug:

long shot

It's still relatively early in the rebuild. If next year's draft added a big stud pass rusher at OLB and a fatass NT, and get decent development of the young talent we already have, the D could be quite good in '11.

At that point we'd be crappy at QB and have a few holes to fill elsewhere.

RedThat
06-06-2010, 05:53 PM
I just invented the rule of 2. If you have two very good players with each unit, (offensive backfield, receivers, OL, DL, LB and secondary) and average players elsewhere, you are basically a dynasty. I would be willing to live with average players on the OL before I would any of the other 5 areas.

I could live with this, but it all depends on which player Im getting at the units you mentioned that could elevate the play of the team and the players around them.

For example, give me Peyton Manning, and I could live with average players on the Oline and a decent RB. Take away Peyton Manning, and its going to be a lot different.

Want to elaborate here, the positions I would choose from each unit you mentioned that would make the most difference in impact on a football team are QB, RB, LT, WR, also give me a passrushing DE, a solid DT, a dominant MLB, and a game changing safety. jmo

milkman
06-06-2010, 05:53 PM
the main thing is to be solid everywhere and then have greatness in certain spots that make everyone else better.

Traditional thinking says "great QB" makes everyone on offense better "great pass rush" makes everyone on defense better.

Traditional but not mandatory ... the jets are almost the exact opposite. They use "great Oline" to make everyone on offense better and "great coverage" to make everyone on defense better.

Some teams try to scheme to hide positions to give more emphasis on their "great" area ala Baltimore pretty much sacrificing offense to help their defense stay great.

I guess the Chiefs are hoping to have a generally solid offense with a great coverage unit to make up for a weak defense.

:shrug:

long shot

The Ravens haven't sacrificed offense to keep their defense great.

They've used numerous high picks on offensive players, including two first round picks on QB in the last ten years.

They just didn't hit on the first QB, or the other skill positions beyond RB.

RedThat
06-06-2010, 05:54 PM
I think the switch will prove to be permanent.

As for Flowers, if this team had a pass rush, he's be up there just in the discussion as the best corner not named Revis, Woodson, or Namde (since I can't spell his last name. Asomuogha?).

I bet if he made a few of those easy pick 6's last year people would already be hyping him up as one of the best.

RedThat
06-06-2010, 06:04 PM
the main thing is to be solid everywhere and then have greatness in certain spots that make everyone else better.

Traditional thinking says "great QB" makes everyone on offense better "great pass rush" makes everyone on defense better.

Traditional but not mandatory ... the jets are almost the exact opposite. They use "great Oline" to make everyone on offense better and "great coverage" to make everyone on defense better.

Some teams try to scheme to hide positions to give more emphasis on their "great" area ala Baltimore pretty much sacrificing offense to help their defense stay great.

I guess the Chiefs are hoping to have a generally solid offense with a great coverage unit to make up for a weak defense.

:shrug:

long shot

From a fans perspective, Im looking at this as improvement more than anything. And Im fine with that. I don't expect them to compete this year. Not without a LB corps and good passrush or a really good front seven I should say.

Still a lot of areas on the team that need to be addressed, and we all know that, and Im sure they know it too. Like Cdcox mentioned it's still early in the rebuild so more time is required to build this team into a contender. The team was a mess from the day Pioli and co. got here. Even if you hire the best exec's in the world, I think this is a 3-4 year rebuild we were looking at here. And thats provided that everything goes well imo.

*Im in the realistic way of thinking category.

milkman
06-06-2010, 06:11 PM
From a fans perspective, Im looking at this as improvement more than anything. And Im fine with that. I don't expect them to compete this year. Not without a LB corps and good passrush or a really good front seven I should say.

Still a lot of areas on the team that need to be addressed, and we all know that, and Im sure they know it too. Like Cdcox mentioned it's still early in the rebuild so more time is required to build this team into a contender. The team was a mess from the day Pioli and co. got here. Even if you hire the best exec's in the world, I think this is a 3-4 year rebuild we were looking at here. And thats provided that everything goes well imo.

*Im in the realistic way of thinking category.

The team was not a mess when Pioli and company got here.

The '08 draft still had the potential for providing a great foundation for the future of this team with the right person running things, both in the front office and on the field.

Clark Hunt essentially decided to blow up that foundation when he brought in Pioli.

Marcellus
06-06-2010, 06:11 PM
It's still relatively early in the rebuild. If next year's draft added a big stud pass rusher at OLB and a fatass NT, and get decent development of the young talent we already have, the D could be quite good in '11.

At that point we'd be crappy at QB and have a few holes to fill elsewhere.

He may end up a liability against the run but I bet Hali has a good year as a pass rusher this year.

Hopefully we can stop the run well enough to force some passing downs.

milkman
06-06-2010, 06:13 PM
He may end up a liability against the run but I bet Hali has a good year as a pass rusher this year.

Hopefully we can stop the run well enough to force some passing downs.

In order to do that on a regular basis, you need a strong front 7, especially in the middle.

It's going to be another long season.

Marcellus
06-06-2010, 06:16 PM
The team was not a mess when Pioli and company got here.

The '08 draft still had the potential for providing a great foundation for the future of this team with the right person running things, both in the front office and on the field.

Clark Hunt essentially decided to blow up that foundation when he brought in Pioli.

Hmmmm. I can't really agree with this. 2-14 and a record for fewest sacks in a season (by a mile) don't bode well for not a mess.

Most of the "foundation" is still here. Flowers, Carr, Hali, Charles, Albert. It didn't get blown up.

I also have no doubt Herm and Carl wouldn't have been able to turn the corner, ever. Unless you call 10-6 every other year success.

Time will still tell whether current crew can do it. I have a feeling the current FO and coaches have a better shot at it than the last.

cdcox
06-06-2010, 06:19 PM
He may end up a liability against the run but I bet Hali has a good year as a pass rusher this year.

Hopefully we can stop the run well enough to force some passing downs.

I agree that Hali will be a decent pass rusher. But he won't be Jared-Allen or DT good. We could really use someone of that caliber to compliment Hali. At that point, the defense would have the potential to be lights out against the pass.

Superstar Pass rusher
Hali
DJ (his strength is pass defense)
Flowers
Berry

That has real potential.

cdcox
06-06-2010, 06:22 PM
Hmmmm. I can't really agree with this. 2-14 and a record for fewest sacks in a season (by a mile) don't bode well for not a mess.

Most of the "foundation" is still here. Flowers, Carr, Hali, Charles, Albert. It didn't get blown up.

I also have no doubt Herm and Carl wouldn't have been able to turn the corner, ever. Unless you call 10-6 every other year success.

Time will still tell whether current crew can do it. I have a feeling the current FO and coaches have a better shot at it than the last.

The point is that several players, most notably Dorsey, could have been stars in a 4-3 but aren't well suited for a 3-4. Plus we wouldn't have been stuck drafting Tyson Jackson had we stayed in the 4-3.

milkman
06-06-2010, 06:27 PM
Hmmmm. I can't really agree with this. 2-14 and a record for fewest sacks in a season (by a mile) don't bode well for not a mess.

Most of the "foundation" is still here. Flowers, Carr, Hali, Charles, Albert. It didn't get blown up.

I also have no doubt Herm and Carl wouldn't have been able to turn the corner, ever. Unless you call 10-6 every other year success.

Time will still tell whether current crew can do it. I have a feeling the current FO and coaches have a better shot at it than the last.

Reading comprehension problem?

I said "If the right people" were in charge.

Clearly that means that Carl and Herman fucking Edwards were not the right people.

This rebuild would be much further along had Clark Hunt hired someone who wasn't determined to blow up the scheme and put someone in charge that could have built with the foundation that was already in place.

Yes, the team sucked.
Yes they only had 10 sacks.

But a good staff could have moved forward with what was in place without transitioning everyone into new positions.

They could have focused on offense in the '09 draft, and worked on defense in this draft.

Instead, we wasted #3 overall a 5 tech because we just had to transition to a 34 immediately.

Mr. Laz
06-06-2010, 06:28 PM
here we go ........

Saccopoo
06-06-2010, 06:38 PM
I'm not sure they'll keep Washington at safety, I think they might just be working him out there to see if they might have something since they just invested a high 2 in Arenas.

I'd like to start collecting DT's, ILB's and pass rushing OLB's, personally.

Without them, the back 7 won't matter much. You can't ask these kids to cover for 7 seconds.

That's what makes Flowers even more impressive to me.

This team has no pass rush, he's forced to cover WAY too long, and ProFootballFocus rated him the 5th best CB in the league last year.

Kid is severely underrated around the NFL. Imagine how good he could be if he had some help up front?

I think Flowers is pretty respected around the league, and one has to also consider that he played hurt last season, or at least not 100%. He's the one guy that teams have to watch out for and why Leggett was torched repeatedly last season. Teams went to multiple receiver sets just to get us into nickle packages. Flowers and Carr were pretty darn good last year, and with the additions of Berry and Arenas, they'll have an exponential level of help over last season.

Now listening to: Allman Brothers - "Live at the Fillmore East"

Saccopoo
06-06-2010, 06:47 PM
In order to do that on a regular basis, you need a strong front 7, especially in the middle.

It's going to be another long season.

Smith is a legit 3-4 NT. Dorsey and Jackson are top five first rounders who now have a year under their belt. Hali led the team in sacks, led the league in forced fumbles and was near the top for QB pressures. Belcher looked legit as a MLB the last three games of the season. Johnson is playing for his career at this point. And we have a defensive coordinator who is widely respected around the league as one of, if not the best 3-4 guys in the business.

In addition, the secondary has been drastically improved for three down coverage and support. (Berry, Arenas and Lewis should thrive in a 3-4 set, and provide a lot of impact, especially in third and long situations.)

They better be a significantly improved front seven. The tools are there.

BossChief
06-06-2010, 06:57 PM
Smith is a legit 3-4 NT. Dorsey and Jackson are top five first rounders who now have a year under their belt. Hali led the team in sacks, led the league in forced fumbles and was near the top for QB pressures. Belcher looked legit as a MLB the last three games of the season. Johnson is playing for his career at this point. And we have a defensive coordinator who is widely respected around the league as one of, if not the best 3-4 guys in the business.

In addition, the secondary has been drastically improved for three down coverage and support. (Berry, Arenas and Lewis should thrive in a 3-4 set, and provide a lot of impact, especially in third and long situations.)

They better be a significantly improved front seven. The tools are there.

Hali didnt lead the league in forced fumbles

milkman
06-06-2010, 07:41 PM
Hali didnt lead the league in forced fumbles

And Smith hasn't been a legit 34 nose in 2 or 3 years.

chiefzilla1501
06-06-2010, 08:06 PM
Smith is a legit 3-4 NT. Dorsey and Jackson are top five first rounders who now have a year under their belt. Hali led the team in sacks, led the league in forced fumbles and was near the top for QB pressures. Belcher looked legit as a MLB the last three games of the season. Johnson is playing for his career at this point. And we have a defensive coordinator who is widely respected around the league as one of, if not the best 3-4 guys in the business.

In addition, the secondary has been drastically improved for three down coverage and support. (Berry, Arenas and Lewis should thrive in a 3-4 set, and provide a lot of impact, especially in third and long situations.)

They better be a significantly improved front seven. The tools are there.

A bit over-optimistic. Smith isn't a legit NT. He's serviceable. We have two serviceable NTs, which is an improvement over 1 over-stretched, exhausted NT. But it's still a noticeable gap in our defense. Belcher has some potential, but he's still very small for a 3-4 ILB position. As for DJ, how many years does he have to play for his career before he finally gets it? I think Lewis is an interesting pick too, but he's still a later round pick with some potential speed issues.

This defense is still a year away. And not having a Nose Tackle is a noticeable gap, but we were going to have gaps anyway and I"m not convinced that it's a particularly hard position to fill.

Von Dumbass
06-06-2010, 09:57 PM
And Smith hasn't been a legit 34 nose in 2 or 3 years.

He was the 79th best DT/NT in the NFL in 2009, 63rd best DT/NT in the NFL in 2008, and the 63rd best DT/NT in the NFL in 2007 according to pro football focus.

OnTheWarpath58
06-06-2010, 10:13 PM
He was the 79th best DT/NT in the NFL in 2009, 63rd best DT/NT in the NFL in 2008, and the 63rd best DT/NT in the NFL in 2007 according to pro football focus.

91st against the run in 2007.

72nd against the run in 2008.

53rd in 2009.

Not good at all.

milkman
06-06-2010, 10:19 PM
He was the 79th best DT/NT in the NFL in 2009, 63rd best DT/NT in the NFL in 2008, and the 63rd best DT/NT in the NFL in 2007 according to pro football focus.

91st against the run in 2007.

72nd against the run in 2008.

53rd in 2009.

Not good at all.

So essentially profootball focus is telling us what I said already.

He's not a legit nose, and hasn't been for 2 or 3 years.

OnTheWarpath58
06-06-2010, 10:20 PM
So essentially profootball focus is telling us what I said already.

He's not a legit nose, and hasn't been for 2 or 3 years.

Yep.

Ralphy Boy
06-07-2010, 05:09 PM
It still comes down to one thing.

If you can't get pressure on the QB, then QBs will pick the secondary apart, regardless of the quality of that secondary.



In short, whoever wrote this is a clueless ****ing dumbass.

Amen.