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View Full Version : Environment I hate "Big Government"...... ohhh wait!


max sleeper
06-06-2010, 02:54 PM
Why is it many people hate "Big Government" until something like the oil spill happens... then they want "Big Government" to come save the day! It is a shame what is going on in the Gulf but cleaning up oil is not like picking up litter on the side of the road. It is just time to get off oil period! Go Chiefs!

irishjayhawk
06-06-2010, 03:03 PM
Why is it many people hate "Big Government" until something like the oil spill happens... then they want "Big Government" to come save the day! It is a shame what is going on in the Gulf but cleaning up oil is not like picking up litter on the side of the road. It is just time to get off oil period! Go Chiefs!

Same with immigration.

mlyonsd
06-06-2010, 03:08 PM
Same with immigration.

We want big immigration? I'm confused.

Reaper16
06-06-2010, 03:24 PM
Government is so inefficient as to be useless except when it comes to grand, sweeping, conspiratorial takeovers of Liberty!

Pitt Gorilla
06-06-2010, 03:30 PM
We also need the government to make sure that churches (etc.) aren't allowed to marry folks of the same sex.

|Zach|
06-06-2010, 05:33 PM
Government is so inefficient as to be useless except when it comes to grand, sweeping, conspiratorial takeovers of Liberty!

ROFL

Taco John
06-06-2010, 05:44 PM
Hey look! Morons!

Brock
06-06-2010, 06:12 PM
Newsflash, we have big government and it's failed to hold up its promises.

irishjayhawk
06-06-2010, 07:10 PM
We want big immigration? I'm confused.

Since I don't know how to read that statement I'll clarify:

Arizona is a fine example where Republicans - notorious for their anti-big-government stances - are passing a law because the Federal Government is not moving fast enough or doing their job. The same people who want government out of their lives and leave them alone are the same people who want the government to step in and close the borders or fix immigration.

AZ's law has been described by those very people as being a "wake up call for Washington".

irishjayhawk
06-06-2010, 07:10 PM
We also need the government to make sure that churches (etc.) aren't allowed to marry folks of the same sex.

Another good point.

Silock
06-06-2010, 08:21 PM
As I've said before: The gov't exists for a few reasons, and things like making sure oil spills don't wreck the national economy and ecosystem is one of them.

Fat Elvis
06-06-2010, 08:26 PM
As I've said before: The gov't exists for a few reasons, and things like making sure oil spills don't wreck the national economy and ecosystem is one of them.

Socialist Obamabot! ROFL

cannon1988
06-06-2010, 08:30 PM
Newsflash, we have big government and it's failed to hold up its promises.

Newsflash: We have big government, and its failures can be traced to the free market and its devolution into corporatocracy.

HonestChieffan
06-06-2010, 09:05 PM
Same with immigration.


Border security is Governments job. Throwing hissyfits because the leak isnt plugged yet wont plug the leak.

Taco John
06-06-2010, 10:00 PM
Newsflash: We have big government, and its failures can be traced to the free market and its devolution into corporatocracy.


We've had progressive government for a century. The end result has been endless international wars, an ever growing welfare class, bailouts of "too big to fail" institutions, trillions in debt, and an oil spill the size of Oregon.

Progressivism has failed.

Taco John
06-06-2010, 10:06 PM
And for what it's worth, protecting the lives and property of those affected by this oil spill is actually a legitimate function of government. It's a serious problem that government has grown so big that it is sluggish and ineffective when it's time for them to actually perform in a legitimate role. This is what you get with progressive government. A hundred ways to tax people into social reform, but no leadership or solutions when that money is needed to be put in action to protect the citizens affected by this terrible encroachment.

Taco John
06-06-2010, 10:23 PM
Government is 'dithering'
By Mike DiGiuro

The oil spill in the Gulf of Mexico is a disaster. Like most disasters, it was not caused by any one thing, but by a combination of multiple defects in equipment and poor decisions.

British Petroleum made this mess, and it is its responsibility to clean it up. If it takes their every dollar and asset, so be it. The fallout in lost jobs and lost wealth by stockholders will be unfortunate, especially since the majority of the stockholders are probably pension and retirement plans, or held in 401(k) plans.

Helping BP with the clean-up (and fully billing it for the help) is what the government ought to be doing. We don't need our government to tell us what to eat, what to smoke, what kind of car to drive and trying to control our daily lives. We do need them to step in to help with natural and manmade disasters.

The federal government is dithering. Making speeches and forming commissions are not going to keep the oil off the beaches. Pursuing criminal charges against BP executives is not going to keep the oil from killing sea life. My God, quit talking and do something. Get every federal employee in the country on the beaches with a bucket and rubber gloves. Get the National Guard setting up camp for the workers. Hire tankers to siphon up the oil. Do something -- anything! If I hear Obama say one more time that the government has had a plan from Day One, and that the plan is working, I'm going to puke.

When you don't want the government, it is intruding into every aspect of your life. When you need it, it is nowhere to be found.

http://pointtaken.courier-journal.com/2010/06/government-is-dithering.html

BucEyedPea
06-06-2010, 10:28 PM
Not being for BIG govt isn't being for NO govt. The Constitution has a formula...of specific and enumerated powers. We're for those.

Besides it was big govt and it's cronies sucking of it that to the the oil spill. Read all about it in the thread on that.

irishjayhawk
06-06-2010, 10:30 PM
Well, BEP, please cite the "specific an enumerated power" that describes cleaning up, assisting with, or otherwise addressing an (corporate) oil spill.

I'll wait.

Taco John
06-06-2010, 10:32 PM
Well, BEP, please cite the "specific an enumerated power" that describes cleaning up, assisting with, or otherwise addressing an (corporate) oil spill.

I'll wait.



The Commerce Clause, right? I mean, it covers everything else doesn't it.

BucEyedPea
06-06-2010, 10:33 PM
He extrapolated something I didn't mean. Or should I say ASSumed.

Taco John
06-06-2010, 10:35 PM
He extrapolated something I didn't mean.

He's hardly worth your time. He's a confused kid who is still trying to figure life out. He was pumping Ron Paul during the election, then Obama wins and suddenly he's the biggest Obama fan on the board. He's probably got a Saints jersey in his wardrobe purchased in February.

BucEyedPea
06-06-2010, 10:37 PM
He's hardly worth your time. He's a confused kid who is still trying to figure life out. He was pumping Ron Paul during the election, then Obama wins and suddenly he's the biggest Obama fan on the board. He's probably got a Saints jersey in his wardrobe purchased in February.

That's why I hardly respond....plus he keeps it going endlessly and doesn't know when to end.

Taco John
06-06-2010, 10:39 PM
That's because he has no philosophy. He bases his politics on his feelings. Like Kotter.

irishjayhawk
06-06-2010, 10:55 PM
He's hardly worth your time. He's a confused kid who is still trying to figure life out. He was pumping Ron Paul during the election, then Obama wins and suddenly he's the biggest Obama fan on the board. He's probably got a Saints jersey in his wardrobe purchased in February.

ROFL

I'm the biggest Obama fan on the board?

FTR, I dropped Paul well before Obama won.

irishjayhawk
06-06-2010, 10:57 PM
That's because he has no philosophy. He bases his politics on his feelings. Like Kotter.

Oh my god.

Feelings.


Get me some SOMA, ASAP!

BucEyedPea
06-06-2010, 11:06 PM
That's because he has no philosophy. He bases his politics on his feelings. Like Kotter.

He's still forming though. But I've never called for the govt to clean up the oil spill. That's his ASSumption.

irishjayhawk
06-06-2010, 11:07 PM
He's still forming though. But I've never called for the govt to clean up the oil spill. That's his ASSumption.

I even included "addressing" the oil spill.

You are not for the government addressing the oil spill? If you are, how so?

Pitt Gorilla
06-07-2010, 12:28 AM
We don't need our government to tell us what to eat, what to smoke, what kind of car to drive and trying to control our daily lives. We do need them to step in to help with natural and manmade disasters.[/url]That's an interesting statement. Should the government have moved to control lead in consumer products or should we have let the market take care of that problem? I mean, the government in that case severely limited the kind of car people could drive.

BigChiefFan
06-07-2010, 01:13 AM
We're paying out the ass for their services, might as well attempt to get some perk out of it. I think most know their pretty much worthless, but that shouldn't keep hard-working AMERICANS from demanding more.

googlegoogle
06-07-2010, 02:01 AM
What exactly has the coast guard done?

In any case they should should just drill 500 ft of ammonium nitrate and set it of near the well casing. They should have done it a month ago since BP has no clue and isn't listening to anyone else.

Baby Lee
06-07-2010, 06:44 AM
And for what it's worth, protecting the lives and property of those affected by this oil spill is actually a legitimate function of government. It's a serious problem that government has grown so big that it is sluggish and ineffective when it's time for them to actually perform in a legitimate role. This is what you get with progressive government. A hundred ways to tax people into social reform, but no leadership or solutions when that money is needed to be put in action to protect the citizens affected by this terrible encroachment.

If you aren't on board with every entitlement doled out, you don't deserve firemen or police!!!

blaise
06-07-2010, 07:28 AM
Why is it many people hate "Big Government" until something like the oil spill happens... then they want "Big Government" to come save the day! It is a shame what is going on in the Gulf but cleaning up oil is not like picking up litter on the side of the road. It is just time to get off oil period! Go Chiefs!

Probably for the same reasons that people who would be saying the government is ultimately accountable and responsible for not saving the day if Bush were president are not saying that now.

blaise
06-07-2010, 07:36 AM
I like how all of a sudden being conservative means you were for totally unregulated oil drilling and just letting the oil companies do everything and anything they want.
That's about as bright as the people who say liberals want schools to teach kids to have gay sex and hate America.

Reaper16
06-07-2010, 08:28 AM
I like how all of a sudden being conservative means you were for totally unregulated oil drilling and just letting the oil companies do everything and anything they want.
That's about as bright as the people who say liberals want schools to teach kids to have gay sex and hate America.
You mean that isn't bright? *HonestChiefFan, Mad Crapper, LOCOChief, etc. back out of room slowly*

Baby Lee
06-07-2010, 08:31 AM
YOU'RE like this!!

No I'm NOT!! And YOU'RE like this!!!

rinse and repeat.

BigChiefFan
06-07-2010, 08:32 AM
Whoever thinks the Coast Guard shouldn't be involved, needs their head examined. Last time I checked, the Coast Guard was a government entity.

stevieray
06-07-2010, 08:36 AM
Whoever thinks the Coast Guard shouldn't be involved, needs their head examined. Last time I checked, the Coast Guard was a government entity.

United States Coast Guard.

Government needs to be the oil, and let the people be the engine.

Reaper16
06-07-2010, 08:39 AM
United States Coast Guard.

Governmnet needs to be the oil, and let the people be the engine.
Instead, We the People were a drill. And now Government is gushing out everywhere and we're having difficulty stopping its spread! /Taco John-style Analogy

BigChiefFan
06-07-2010, 08:39 AM
United States Coast Guard.

Governmnet needs to be the oil, and let the people be the engine.I was thinking the government is the meat grinder and the people are the meat.:D

Brock
06-07-2010, 09:09 AM
Newsflash: We have big government, and its failures can be traced to the free market and its devolution into corporatocracy.

Its failures are purely its own.

BucEyedPea
06-07-2010, 09:14 AM
That's an interesting statement. Should the government have moved to control lead in consumer products or should we have let the market take care of that problem? I mean, the government in that case severely limited the kind of car people could drive.

This is what I call binary or two valued logic. It's more often used by math types I've noticed. It's stupid though. Because I don't recall anyone here saying protecting life was not a govt's job. In fact, I heard plenty of calling for protecting life being the govt's job from the beginning of life ( abortion ) to other phases like national defense. It's how it's done too. For instance, Hong Kong has the freest markets of all countries, but it has some regulation but it's straightforward and rational.

Also, I know I posted this,some regulation does not make a market unfree. It's excessive micromanaged regulation, regulation for egalitarian purposes and not allowing for any "buyer beware" by people at all when they should also take some responsibility.

Bottom line, it's the lump sum total that make it BIG govt.
Nanny to grave provisions is BIG govt. Someone who wrecks property of others being disciplined is NOT BIG govt. So let the lawsuits happen. That is a proper role of govt to have courts for justice and to address damages. Only, in this particular case the regulators had conflicts of interest. It was big govt that let us down. So much for it being the safeguard it's claimed to be.

banyon
06-07-2010, 01:20 PM
If you aren't on board with every entitlement doled out, you don't deserve firemen or police!!!

How about "If you insist that the government be literally limited to the things spellled out and minimally interpreted in the Constitution, that you don't get to apply a double standard when it fits your whims?"

Does that work better?

Chief Faithful
06-07-2010, 02:22 PM
If you aren't on board with every entitlement doled out, you don't deserve firemen or police!!!
Or roads, schools, parks, hospitals,...etc...and you're racist.

irishjayhawk
06-07-2010, 09:43 PM
How about "If you insist that the government be literally limited to the things spellled out and minimally interpreted in the Constitution, that you don't get to apply a double standard when it fits your whims?"

Does that work better?

:clap:

(in lieu of rep, since I have to "spread it around")

BucEyedPea
06-07-2010, 09:52 PM
Yeah right! The govt specifically telling a company what "this or that" has to be used is when they know less about the matter is the way to go— NOT.

BucEyedPea
06-07-2010, 09:53 PM
Or roads, schools, parks, hospitals,...etc...and you're racist.

+ 1
I have to spread some around too. To balance out the bad ideas.

googlegoogle
06-07-2010, 10:31 PM
As I've said before: The gov't exists for a few reasons, and things like making sure oil spills don't wreck the national economy and ecosystem is one of them.

We attempted to burn the oil but enviro whackos stopped it.

We tried using dispersants but that was stopped too.

cannon1988
06-08-2010, 12:51 AM
It is time for control.

alanm
06-08-2010, 01:00 AM
We've had progressive government for a century. The end result has been endless international wars, an ever growing welfare class, bailouts of "too big to fail" institutions, trillions in debt, and an oil spill the size of Oregon.

Progressivism has failed.And yet people still can't spot a progressive if their life depended on it. And it soon might. :shake:

joesomebody
06-08-2010, 10:30 AM
Government is 'dithering'
By Mike DiGiuro

The oil spill in the Gulf of Mexico is a disaster. Like most disasters, it was not caused by any one thing, but by a combination of multiple defects in equipment and poor decisions.

British Petroleum made this mess, and it is its responsibility to clean it up. If it takes their every dollar and asset, so be it. The fallout in lost jobs and lost wealth by stockholders will be unfortunate, especially since the majority of the stockholders are probably pension and retirement plans, or held in 401(k) plans.

Helping BP with the clean-up (and fully billing it for the help) is what the government ought to be doing. We don't need our government to tell us what to eat, what to smoke, what kind of car to drive and trying to control our daily lives. We do need them to step in to help with natural and manmade disasters.

The federal government is dithering. Making speeches and forming commissions are not going to keep the oil off the beaches. Pursuing criminal charges against BP executives is not going to keep the oil from killing sea life. My God, quit talking and do something. Get every federal employee in the country on the beaches with a bucket and rubber gloves. Get the National Guard setting up camp for the workers. Hire tankers to siphon up the oil. Do something -- anything! If I hear Obama say one more time that the government has had a plan from Day One, and that the plan is working, I'm going to puke.

When you don't want the government, it is intruding into every aspect of your life. When you need it, it is nowhere to be found.

http://pointtaken.courier-journal.com/2010/06/government-is-dithering.htmlGreat article.

DJ's left nut
06-08-2010, 10:35 AM
Since I don't know how to read that statement I'll clarify:

Arizona is a fine example where Republicans - notorious for their anti-big-government stances - are passing a law because the Federal Government is not moving fast enough or doing their job. The same people who want government out of their lives and leave them alone are the same people who want the government to step in and close the borders or fix immigration.

AZ's law has been described by those very people as being a "wake up call for Washington".

Because immigration is a national sovereignty issue, which is one of the few areas where the Federal Government should play a major role.

Do you really not understand this?

It never ceases to amaze me how little the left understands the positions of the people they are so quick to disparage.

headsnap
06-08-2010, 10:46 AM
Government is 'dithering'
By Mike DiGiuro

The oil spill in the Gulf of Mexico is a disaster. Like most disasters, it was not caused by any one thing, but by a combination of multiple defects in equipment and poor decisions.


spot on!



BTW, the author Mike DiGiuro is my neighbor...

ClevelandBronco
06-08-2010, 10:51 AM
Because immigration is a national sovereignty issue, which is one of the few areas where the Federal Government should play a major role.

Do you really not understand this?

It never ceases to amaze me how little the left understands the positions of the people they are so quick to disparage.

I think most of them are bright enough to understand, but juvenile enough to make silly arguments.

Iowanian
06-08-2010, 10:53 AM
I do hate big govt.

I'm working on a 2nd business venture. I need to dig a 10'x20'x10' hole. To do that, I am dealing with 3-4 agencies of the dnr, the army corps of engineers, none of which work together, all require permits, payments and different requirements. To dig this hole, I have to also bond significant money, have an archeological survey, flood plain work, "habitat survey" for any possible harm this hole may cause endangered species or plants. This is the beginning and doesn't include the permits, documents, explanatory paragraphs, diagrams, profiles etc.....

At least the IRS can't seem to manage to check the correct box when I do complicated things like monthly payroll taxes.


You want to create jobs and "fix" things...get the govt the hell out of the way of progress.

Baby Lee
06-08-2010, 11:06 AM
How about "If you insist that the government be literally limited to the things spellled out and minimally interpreted in the Constitution, that you don't get to apply a double standard when it fits your whims?"

Does that work better?

I suppose, for whatever sparse conglomeration of people nation-wide to whom it applies. ;)

HonestChieffan
06-08-2010, 11:12 AM
Obama says he would have fired CEO of BP.

Maybe he should meet the guy first.

70% of Americans would fire Obama tomorrow if we could.

Taco John
06-08-2010, 12:01 PM
I suppose, for whatever sparse conglomeration of people nation-wide to whom it applies. ;)


Strawmen everywhere have been told.


http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee6/amdscooter/Strawman.jpg

Iowanian
06-08-2010, 12:04 PM
OH NO!! not the dreaded "straw man pokemon" fireball card!

banyon
06-08-2010, 12:54 PM
I suppose, for whatever sparse conglomeration of people nation-wide to whom it applies. ;)

It's a pretty small sample, to be sure.

petegz28
06-08-2010, 12:56 PM
Same with immigration.

That's idiotic. Protecting our borders is one of the primary obligations of our government. Perhaps they could do so if they weren't too busy growing themsevles for social programs?

LOCOChief
06-08-2010, 01:02 PM
What exactly has the coast guard done?

In any case they should should just drill 500 ft of ammonium nitrate and set it of near the well casing. They should have done it a month ago since BP has no clue and isn't listening to anyone else.

I don't think that ammonium nitrate would be the explosive of choice in underwater demolition such as it is. And if that's the solution, you don't think that they would've done just that?

InChiefsHell
06-08-2010, 02:02 PM
My intense hatred of the Gubment really started with my IRS assfucking that I recieved in 1996. From then on, I've been hyper-vigilant of their activities with our money, and have reached the conclusion that they are clueless and not designed to fill the role that they currently fill. That's our fault as a people, we let the bastards get out of control.

That said, there are some things they are good for, and necessary for. Thomas Paine said Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one. Boy did he ever have it right. Shit, even when they are doing what they are supposed to do, they can't do it right.

In 1994, Congress passed a law stating that the responsibility for the cleanup of oil spills falls at the feet of the Federal Government. Now, while I find this laughable, they signed the fucker into law. Which means that legally, Obutthead needs to get on the stick and fix this shit. Can he? No, he's the government. Should he? According to our own laws, yeah...

petegz28
06-08-2010, 02:14 PM
My intense hatred of the Gubment really started with my IRS ass****ing that I recieved in 1996. From then on, I've been hyper-vigilant of their activities with our money, and have reached the conclusion that they are clueless and not designed to fill the role that they currently fill. That's our fault as a people, we let the bastards get out of control.

That said, there are some things they are good for, and necessary for. Thomas Paine said Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one. Boy did he ever have it right. Shit, even when they are doing what they are supposed to do, they can't do it right.

In 1994, Congress passed a law stating that the responsibility for the cleanup of oil spills falls at the feet of the Federal Government. Now, while I find this laughable, they signed the ****er into law. Which means that legally, Obutthead needs to get on the stick and fix this shit. Can he? No, he's the government. Should he? According to our own laws, yeah...

I don't hate the government. I hate what it has and is becoming though.

googlegoogle
06-08-2010, 02:31 PM
I don't think that ammonium nitrate would be the explosive of choice in underwater demolition such as it is. And if that's the solution, you don't think that they would've done just that?

They trusted BP. Why would they shut it off. They thought they could reclaim the oil.

Anyways I think BP chose poorly in not trying to install a cutoff valve instead of the domes.

orange
06-08-2010, 02:33 PM
I think most of them are bright enough to understand, but juvenile enough to make silly arguments.

Speaking of silly arguments:

Get every federal employee in the country on the beaches with a bucket and rubber gloves. Get the National Guard setting up camp for the workers. Hire tankers to siphon up the oil. Do something -- anything!

Okay, not technically "silly" - just flaming stupid!!! And the Wingers here are just eatin' it up! ROFL

InChiefsHell
06-08-2010, 02:43 PM
I don't hate the government. I hate what it has and is becoming though.

Well, I'll back off on "hating the government" lest I get followed around by the black helicopter people. Suffice to say, I despise the role government has taken in our lives, really for the last century, but especially in the last 40 years or so. It's only getting worse too...

BucEyedPea
06-08-2010, 02:53 PM
Speaking of silly arguments:



Okay, not technically "silly" - just flaming stupid!!! And the Wingers here are just eatin' it up! ROFL

Eatin' what up oil? Nah!

blaise
06-08-2010, 02:59 PM
Eatin' what up oil? Nah!

No, clearly the conservatives and "wingers" here on the board were turned on their ears by Taco John's post and conservatives here have just been falling all over themselves about it, starting threads in tribute to it, adding it to their sigs, crafting coded personalized license plates in honor of it, naming children after it and just eating it up! You can tell because orange used an exclamation point and the little laughing man to add emphasis.
Soon he'll be along to copy and paste several other posts and possibly a Huffington Post article demonstrating that all "wingers" here are marching together to the tune of Taco John's post.

RJ
06-08-2010, 03:54 PM
No, clearly the conservatives and "wingers" here on the board were turned on their ears by Taco John's post and conservatives here have just been falling all over themselves about it, starting threads in tribute to it, adding it to their sigs, crafting coded personalized license plates in honor of it, naming children after it and just eating it up! You can tell because orange used an exclamation point and the little laughing man to add emphasis.
Soon he'll be along to copy and paste several other posts and possibly a Huffington Post article demonstrating that all "wingers" here are marching together to the tune of Taco John's post.


Then perhaps you'd be interested in the 20 oz coffee mugs I'm selling. They come in GOP red with TJ's quote beautifully emblazoned in bold black lettering.
A set of four is only $19.95.

blaise
06-08-2010, 03:58 PM
Then perhaps you'd be interested in the 20 oz coffee mugs I'm selling. They come in GOP red with TJ's quote beautifully emblazoned in bold black lettering.
A set of four is only $19.95.

Make it $39.99 and you've got yourself a deal.

RJ
06-08-2010, 04:06 PM
Make it $39.99 and you've got yourself a deal.


Done, but I'm only including 2 mugs.

orange
06-08-2010, 04:07 PM
No, clearly the conservatives and "wingers" here on the board were turned on their ears by Taco John's post and conservatives here have just been falling all over themselves about it, starting threads in tribute to it, adding it to their sigs, crafting coded personalized license plates in honor of it, naming children after it and just eating it up!

You got it!

spot on!

BTW, the author Mike DiGiuro is my neighbor...

Great article.

Yep. And of course, Taco John himself, who sees nothing wrong with it apparently.

And I didn't notice YOU actually commenting on it, only continuing your obsession with posting about me. I suppose I should be flattered in some bizarre way that I have a groupie.

BucEyedPea
06-08-2010, 04:09 PM
No, clearly the conservatives and "wingers" here on the board were turned on their ears by Taco John's post and conservatives here have just been falling all over themselves about it, starting threads in tribute to it, adding it to their sigs, crafting coded personalized license plates in honor of it, naming children after it and just eating it up! You can tell because orange used an exclamation point and the little laughing man to add emphasis.
Soon he'll be along to copy and paste several other posts and possibly a Huffington Post article demonstrating that all "wingers" here are marching together to the tune of Taco John's post.

Sounds like my tribute thread. Tells one a lot about those who respond or do things like that.

irishjayhawk
06-08-2010, 05:51 PM
Because immigration is a national sovereignty issue, which is one of the few areas where the Federal Government should play a major role.

Do you really not understand this?

It never ceases to amaze me how little the left understands the positions of the people they are so quick to disparage.

You can rationalize it all you want. Fact is, many people want government out of their lives yet in certain instances - and they seem very inconsistent on what qualifies - they'll scream for the government to do something.

One could argue that health care is a national security issue and I doubt people will object to the government taking care of national security. It's all in how you see it. And I see a bunch of hypocrites.

JonesCrusher
06-08-2010, 06:00 PM
You can rationalize it all you want. Fact is, many people want government out of their lives yet in certain instances - and they seem very inconsistent on what qualifies - they'll scream for the government to do something.

One could argue that health care is a national security issue and I doubt people will object to the government taking care of national security. It's all in how you see it. And I see a bunch of hypocrites.

So the bridge to nowhere and the Brooklyn bridge are just equal stretches of road in your opinion?

irishjayhawk
06-08-2010, 06:06 PM
So the bridge to nowhere and the Brooklyn bridge are just equal stretches of road in your opinion?

Where's that picture of a Straw Man that TJ posted....

Taco John
06-08-2010, 06:08 PM
One could argue that health care is a national security issue...

No one could make that argument. I would sure like to see them try though. That's the kind of mind numbing, logic betraying argument that I like to see leftists attempt.

KC Dan
06-08-2010, 06:13 PM
No one could make that argument. I would sure like to see them try though. That's the kind of mind numbing, logic betraying argument that I like to see leftists attempt.They'll make that argument and promise to send voters a $250 check.......

BucEyedPea
06-08-2010, 06:32 PM
I could argue that getting rid of every rogue nation in the world is a national security issue too. LMAO

patteeu
06-08-2010, 07:42 PM
Why is it many people hate "Big Government" until something like the oil spill happens... then they want "Big Government" to come save the day! It is a shame what is going on in the Gulf but cleaning up oil is not like picking up litter on the side of the road. It is just time to get off oil period! Go Chiefs!

I wonder if you'll think it's funny when the people who keep calling for us to get off oil start whining about how civilization has collapsed once we don't have enough.

max sleeper
06-08-2010, 07:48 PM
I wonder if you'll think it's funny when the people who keep calling for us to get off oil start whining about how civilization has collapsed once we don't have enough.

Do you really think you or I will be around when the black sh.t runs out? Wait that would be nice... clean air! cleaner water! the middle east sucking ass because they have no $! I hope I am around to see that! Go Chiefs!

blaise
06-08-2010, 10:56 PM
You got it!





Yep. And of course, Taco John himself, who sees nothing wrong with it apparently.

And I didn't notice YOU actually commenting on it, only continuing your obsession with posting about me. I suppose I should be flattered in some bizarre way that I have a groupie.

Wow, you showed me with those two posts that you found.
There's no obsession, just a recognition that you're a toad. I think almost everyone here can agree with that. You've got all the personality of a screen door.

patteeu
06-09-2010, 08:25 AM
Do you really think you or I will be around when the black sh.t runs out? Wait that would be nice... clean air! cleaner water! the middle east sucking ass because they have no $! I hope I am around to see that! Go Chiefs!

I didn't say anything about running out. I don't know when that will happen. I'm talking about people like you who want us to get off oil whether we've run out or not. Or people, perhaps like you, who want to use over-regulation and taxation to take the profit motive away from those who would produce it for us.

Which do you prefer?

The air, water, and middle east we have today + civilization
Cleaner air and water and no problems from the middle east along with a post apocalyptic society at about an 1800 level of technology (after the widespread famine and disease wipe out huge chunks of population)?

patteeu
06-09-2010, 08:41 AM
No one could make that argument. I would sure like to see them try though. That's the kind of mind numbing, logic betraying argument that I like to see leftists attempt.

Then you're in luck. That happens to be irish's specialty!

banyon
06-09-2010, 09:35 AM
I didn't say anything about running out. I don't know when that will happen. I'm talking about people like you who want us to get off oil whether we've run out or not. Or people, perhaps like you, who want to use over-regulation and taxation to take the profit motive away from those who would produce it for us.

Which do you prefer?

The air, water, and middle east we have today + civilization
Cleaner air and water and no problems from the middle east along with a post apocalyptic society at about an 1800 level of technology (after the widespread famine and disease wipe out huge chunks of population)?


Wow. Do i have your permission to copy this example in case I ever teach logic again to use to illustrate the concept of a false dichotomy? I mean this is flat textbook perfect.

banyon
06-09-2010, 09:42 AM
No one could make that argument. I would sure like to see them try though. That's the kind of mind numbing, logic betraying argument that I like to see leftists attempt.

I don't think it's a very difficult argument to make at some levels. Are you unfamiliar with deadly viruses like Ebola and the Hantavirus?

How about the concept of weaponizing certain bacteria and viruses for biological warfare?

Do you not know that our own military has protocols in the event of a dangerous viral epidemic as far as isolation and quarantines are concerned?

Do you think research and discovery of these potential threats is important or unimportant?

InChiefsHell
06-09-2010, 10:13 AM
I don't think it's a very difficult argument to make at some levels. Are you unfamiliar with deadly viruses like Ebola and the Hantavirus?

How about the concept of weaponizing certain bacteria and viruses for biological warfare?

Do you not know that our own military has protocols in the event of a dangerous viral epidemic as far as isolation and quarantines are concerned?

Do you think research and discovery of these potential threats is important or unimportant?

So you are linking Obamacare to being a National Security Tool against the possibility of a bio attack?

Fuckin' wow...

banyon
06-09-2010, 10:57 AM
So you are linking Obamacare to being a National Security Tool against the possibility of a bio attack?

****in' wow...

Where did I mention Obamacare in most post?

Reading comprehension? F*cking wow, man. Wow!

InChiefsHell
06-09-2010, 12:18 PM
Where did I mention Obamacare in most post?

Reading comprehension? F*cking wow, man. Wow!

Sorry, I guess it was more Irishjayhawk, who simply said one could argue that Health Care is a national security issue, and you responded to TJ's post asking someone to make that argument...so my brain was stuck on IJH calling health care a matter of national security when I saw your response...

...yeah, apparently reading comprehension out the window on the convoluded course of replies in this thread. I flagellate myself electronically sir.

Taco John
06-09-2010, 12:40 PM
Banyon, that was just embarassing. You owe InChiefsHell an apology.

It's your reading compreshension that is lacking here.

BucEyedPea
06-09-2010, 12:46 PM
Banyon, that was just embarassing. You owe InChiefsHell an apology.

It's your reading compreshension that is lacking here.

Don't tempt me to peak to see what the brouhaha is all about!:hmmm: ;) :D

BucEyedPea
06-09-2010, 12:49 PM
O.M.G. That is worse than making Iraq or Somali pirates a national security issue!!!
No differentiation—at all! Is that how logic is taught these days? If so, our grads are in a heep of trouble.

banyon
06-09-2010, 01:07 PM
Banyon, that was just embarassing. You owe InChiefsHell an apology.

It's your reading compreshension that is lacking here.

Even InChiefshell understood that he mischaracterized my post. Your ability to engage is honest discussions on this forum is almost completely disintegrated. Pretty soon, you too will be wholly dependent on Thomas DiLorenzo for your understanding of history, LewRockwell for your understanding of politics, and the Misean clown-of-the-month for your understanding of economics. You'll parrot their views, and then put anyone on "fake ignore" who dares to dispute them. Well on your way.

banyon
06-09-2010, 01:20 PM
Sorry, I guess it was more Irishjayhawk, who simply said one could argue that Health Care is a national security issue, and you responded to TJ's post asking someone to make that argument...so my brain was stuck on IJH calling health care a matter of national security when I saw your response...

...yeah, apparently reading comprehension out the window on the convoluded course of replies in this thread. I flagellate myself electronically sir.

No problem. :D

banyon
06-09-2010, 02:00 PM
O.M.G. That is worse than making Iraq or Somali pirates a national security issue!!!
No differentiation—at all! Is that how logic is taught these days? If so, our grads are in a heep of trouble.

What is worse? Are you responding to my post on fake ignore? Did you "peek" again? What is so O.M.G. Terrible? Did you have an actual point here to make?

patteeu
06-09-2010, 02:51 PM
Wow. Do i have your permission to copy this example in case I ever teach logic again to use to illustrate the concept of a false dichotomy? I mean this is flat textbook perfect.

Before you teach logic, you should brush up on when a choice becomes a fallacious argument.

I just asked about his preference between two of an infinite number of potential futures, but if you think there's a third choice that combines the absence of oil and a well-functioning society similar to or better than the one to which we've grown accustomed in the near or mid-term future, you're kidding yourself.

P.S. If I misunderstood your request and you just want to use my post as an example of something that looks like it could be a false dichotomy but isn't really a false dichotomy, then go ahead. :p

Taco John
06-09-2010, 03:46 PM
Even InChiefshell understood that he mischaracterized my post.

That was gracious of him even though he was right and you were wrong and way out of bounds.

Your ability to engage is honest discussions on this forum is almost completely disintegrated. Pretty soon, you too will be wholly dependent on Thomas DiLorenzo for your understanding of history, LewRockwell for your understanding of politics, and the Misean clown-of-the-month for your understanding of economics. You'll parrot their views, and then put anyone on "fake ignore" who dares to dispute them. Well on your way.


Said the expert creator of strawmen who manages to marginalize himself more and more every day. Looks like you just managed to do it again with patteeu. You're losing your grip.

banyon
06-09-2010, 04:01 PM
That was gracious of him even though he was right and you were wrong and way out of bounds.

Out of bounds? Are you insane? All I was doing was satirizing his post that he had already used those words in. Context much?



Said the expert creator of strawmen who manages to marginalize himself more and more every day. Looks like you just managed to do it again with patteeu. You're losing your grip.

It's telling that you keep trumpeting "strawmen" like a parroted clarion call, even though you never explain or detail how such alleged example constitute "strawmen" whatsoever. It's basically your version now of "I disagree with your post, but don't want to bother explaining why", er "it's a strawman!"

It would be like here , instead of specifically replying to your accusations, as I have done, I just said "that's a strawman dude, my work here is done!"

Taco John
06-09-2010, 04:12 PM
When we're talking about obamacare, and you veer off and start talking about biological weaponry, you're making a strawman. I shouldn't have to lower myself to have to explain this. You could try upping your game. You've become such a master of derailing conversations with your straw man that I'd think you were doing it on purpose.

In some forums, they call that being a troll. Apparently, though, you're doing it haphazardly. Which isn't trolling. It's just being stupid.

acesn8s
06-10-2010, 12:26 AM
It is time for control.

The government should take over the oil industry like they did healthcare.

cannon1988
06-10-2010, 03:09 PM
The government should take over the oil industry like they did healthcare.

You are correct.

KC Dan
06-10-2010, 03:13 PM
You are correct.Move to China if you want this. The original post had to have been sarcastic but yours, we all know is not. Most of us actually believe in freedom and capitalism and want to live in a country that isn't oppressive. What the hell is your nationality, really?

cannon1988
06-10-2010, 08:37 PM
Move to China if you want this. The original post had to have been sarcastic but yours, we all know is not. Most of us actually believe in freedom and capitalism and want to live in a country that isn't oppressive. What the hell is your nationality, really?

China is far from my idea of perfect government.

Why is this even an issue? You have your extremism, I'll have mine.

irishjayhawk
06-11-2010, 12:40 AM
Sorry, I guess it was more Irishjayhawk, who simply said one could argue that Health Care is a national security issue, and you responded to TJ's post asking someone to make that argument...so my brain was stuck on IJH calling health care a matter of national security when I saw your response...

...yeah, apparently reading comprehension out the window on the convoluded course of replies in this thread. I flagellate myself electronically sir.

It's quite an easy argument to make. Securing the well being of the inner state is the same as securing itself from outer attacks.

That's why economic collapses can be considered a national security issue and as important.

irishjayhawk
06-11-2010, 12:49 AM
When we're talking about obamacare, and you veer off and start talking about biological weaponry, you're making a strawman. I shouldn't have to lower myself to have to explain this. You could try upping your game. You've become such a master of derailing conversations with your straw man that I'd think you were doing it on purpose.

In some forums, they call that being a troll. Apparently, though, you're doing it haphazardly. Which isn't trolling. It's just being stupid.


Whoa, who was talking about obamacare?


I sure wasn't.


I said health care. I didn't say Obama's Health Care, the bill we just passed, or previous versions. I said health care. It could be anyone's bill. The fact that "health care" as a term has become conflated with "obamacare" is absurd.

That's also why it's not a "left" or "right" issue.

Taco John
06-11-2010, 01:03 AM
Of course it's not absurd. Obamacare and healthcare are synonomous. It's a practical reality. But that's neither here nor there. This is all a conflation for the fact that you argued that an argument could be made that healthcare is a national security issue. Banyon attempted to and failed. He veered into biological warfare, which has nothing to do with health care - or in modern parlance, obamacare.

BIG_DADDY
06-11-2010, 01:06 AM
Why is it many people hate "Big Government" until something like the oil spill happens... then they want "Big Government" to come save the day! It is a shame what is going on in the Gulf but cleaning up oil is not like picking up litter on the side of the road. It is just time to get off oil period! Go Chiefs!

WOW

irishjayhawk
06-11-2010, 09:39 AM
Of course it's not absurd. Obamacare and healthcare are synonomous. It's a practical reality. But that's neither here nor there. This is all a conflation for the fact that you argued that an argument could be made that healthcare is a national security issue. Banyon attempted to and failed. He veered into biological warfare, which has nothing to do with health care - or in modern parlance, obamacare.

Talking about health care as a general concept devoid of politics is different than health care as in obamacare. If you can't see the difference and continue to think they're synonymous, that's the type of propaganda that's ruining the country. That and your and idiot.


As for whether an argument can be made, it certainly can.

Is avoiding an economic collapse an issue of national security?

patteeu
06-11-2010, 11:44 AM
WOW

There are some crazy people around here, that's for sure.

irishjayhawk
06-11-2010, 11:46 AM
There are some crazy people around here, that's for sure.

You really don't see any hypocritical stances with respect to when the government can and cannot come into help?

patteeu
06-11-2010, 11:49 AM
Talking about health care as a general concept devoid of politics is different than health care as in obamacare. If you can't see the difference and continue to think they're synonymous, that's the type of propaganda that's ruining the country. That and your and idiot.


As for whether an argument can be made, it certainly can.

Is avoiding an economic collapse an issue of national security?

Let me help clear up this confusion. Taco John should have said there are no good arguments that can be made. All such arguments pervert the meaning of "national security" beyond it's acceptable limits. I hope this helps. ;)

patteeu
06-11-2010, 11:57 AM
You really don't see any hypocritical stances with respect to when the government can and cannot come into help?

Not on this issue, in general.

People who say the government doesn't have a legitimate roll when it comes to large-scale natural disasters probably don't have much room for calling on the Feds to intervene here, but most conservatives see such risk-sharing and collective action as acceptable on some level (meaning they may still have differences with liberals over the types of intervention).

I think Baby Lee skewered the message of the OP pretty well early in the thread when he restated Taco John's response.

irishjayhawk
06-11-2010, 12:01 PM
Let me help clear up this confusion. Taco John should have said there are no good arguments that can be made. All such arguments pervert the meaning of "national security" beyond it's acceptable limits. I hope this helps. ;)

If that's a perversion of "national security", Taco has outright murdered "health care".

Not on this issue, in general.

People who say the government doesn't have a legitimate roll when it comes to large-scale natural disasters probably don't have much room for calling on the Feds to intervene here, but most conservatives see such risk-sharing and collective action as acceptable on some level (meaning they may still have differences with liberals over the types of intervention).

I think Baby Lee skewered the message of the OP pretty well early in the thread when he restated Taco John's response.

I whole heartedly disagree.

For example, the bailouts. The bailouts are like the government helping to plug up a money drain (collapse). There, conservatives don't see "such risk-sharing and collective action as acceptable".

Hydrae
06-11-2010, 12:29 PM
For me at least, generic "health care" is talking about me going to my doctor to get a physical. I fail to see what this has to do with national security.

Now, protecting against a biological attack would be a matter of national security. I believe that is why we have something called the CDC.