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View Full Version : Economics Time to nuke the Swiss


mlyonsd
06-08-2010, 02:33 PM
GENEVA (AP) — Switzerland (http://content.usatoday.com/topics/topic/Places,+Geography/Countries/Switzerland)'s efforts to calm a banking furor hit a major setback Tuesday as nationalist and left-wing lawmakers blocked a treaty with the United States that would have allowed UBS to hand over thousands more files on its American clients to U.S. tax authorities.

The Swiss government and Washington had painstakingly crafted the treaty last August to resolve a long-standing dispute over the bank's alleged role in aiding tax evasion, but 104 lawmakers in Switzerland's lower house voted against the deal Tuesday, compared to 76 in favor. Sixteen lawmakers abstained.

FLASHBACK: UBS says IRS has 20 Swiss banks in its sights for tax evasion (http://www.usatoday.com/money/perfi/taxes/2010-03-12-ubs-irs-tax-evasion_N.htm?loc=interstitialskip)

The government had urged lawmakers to approve the deal to avert harm to the Swiss economy, which is heavily dependent on the country's banking industry.

The deal is crucial to UBS — the country's largest bank — which has faced intense pressure from U.S. authorities since 2007.

Last year the bank agreed to turn over hundreds of client files and pay a $780 million penalty in return for a deferred prosecution agreement. But Washington has signaled that unless UBS reveals a further 4,450 American names demanded in the U.S.-Swiss agreement, it may face a crippling civil investigation just as the bank is recovering from the subprime crisis and seeking to rebuild its U.S. business.

The deal was blocked Tuesday by lawmakers from Switzerland's two biggest parties, the People's Party and the Social Democrats (http://content.usatoday.com/topics/topic/Organizations/Political+Bodies/Democratic+Party).

The Social Democrats had tied their consent to a binding government commitment to tax bankers' bonuses. The People's Party wanted parliament to vote against such a tax before dealing with the U.S. tax treaty. Both parties' demands were rejected by the government.

The bill will now be passed back to the upper house for further debate and could be voted on again by the lower house later this month. But lawmakers also voted to put any eventual compromise to a popular referendum, making a further delay likely.

Shares in UBS (UBS) (http://stocks.usatoday.com/custom/usatoday-com/html-quote.asp?symb=UBS) fell after the vote, as the bank now risks being drawn into costly civil litigation by U.S. authorities over the 4,450 suspected American tax cheats.

Switzerland has made many compromises in recent years to fend off demands by Germany, France, the United States and others for an end to its treasured banking secrecy rules, but the treaty that failed Tuesday would have gone far beyond those measures.

Last year, the government agreed to do away with the difference between tax evasion and tax fraud — a key legal distinction that has allowed foreigners with accounts in Switzerland to avoid having their details handed over to investigators back home.

Copyright 2010 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.<!-- EdSysObj ID="SSI-A" FRAGMENTID="35167852" rberthol --><!--startclickprintexclude-->

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BucEyedPea
06-08-2010, 02:52 PM
I'm proud of them for voting against it. Every true, red white and blue American should be too. It's sad and shameful that we have to us a tiny country in Europe to find financial freedom when this country is supposed to be about that.

blaise
06-08-2010, 02:53 PM
Their army men can stab you and then open your canned food.

BucEyedPea
06-08-2010, 02:56 PM
Their army men can stab you and then open your canned food.

And their mts are loaded with munitions even the 3rd Reich was afraid to invade a country where the people are it's army.
This thread should be a tribute to William Tell who told the bully statists off and to get out.

Iowanian
06-08-2010, 03:14 PM
I have a better idea.

I'll volunteer to impregnate their Bikini team and breed those bastards out.




Swiss Miss also makes a delicious instant hot cocoa packet.

Dave Lane
06-08-2010, 03:18 PM
Good. If you pay your taxes like the rest of us you have nothing to fear from the release of these records.

blaise
06-08-2010, 03:20 PM
I have a better idea.

I'll volunteer to impregnate their Bikini team and breed those bastards out.




Swiss Miss also makes a delicious instant hot cocoa packet.

And a chain of restaurants in Canada named Swiss Chalet.

Amnorix
06-08-2010, 03:23 PM
And their mts are loaded with munitions even the 3rd Reich was afraid to invade a country where the people are it's army.
This thread should be a tribute to William Tell who told the bully statists off and to get out.

Yeah, the Nazis were willing to take on the Russian hordes, but were terrified of Switzerland. That's exactly it.

:rolleyes:

Iowanian
06-08-2010, 03:34 PM
If they don't shut it, I'm going to go on the "Price is Right" and rex kwan do roundhouse kick that yodeling bastard off of the Cliffhanger game!

Don't even let me near that Riccola sonnabitch

http://priceisrightyodel.ytmnd.com

ClevelandBronco
06-08-2010, 03:37 PM
Yeah, the Nazis were willing to take on the Russian hordes, but were terrified of Switzerland. That's exactly it.

:rolleyes:

ROFL

BucEyedPea
06-08-2010, 03:57 PM
Good. If you pay your taxes like the rest of us you have nothing to fear from the release of these records.
Isn't that what the right said regarding the Patriot Act etc?

It's none of the govt's business in a Declaration of Independence sense. It's another usurption.
Our govt is out of control in spending. What next will they tax? The internet? I heard that's being considered. The air.

Nice to know Americans on both the left and right support being slaves and if there are some that escape they should be punished. Pure evil!

“THEY CAME FIRST for the Communists,
and I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Communist.

THEN THEY CAME for the trade unionists,
and I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a trade unionist.

THEN THEY CAME for the Jews,
and I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Jew.

THEN THEY CAME for those trying to keep their property
and I didn’t speak up because I didn't have as much to keep and relied on what they had to be taken

THEN THEY CAME for Dave Lane
and by that time no one was left to speak up.”

BucEyedPea
06-08-2010, 03:59 PM
Yeah, the Nazis were willing to take on the Russian hordes, but were terrified of Switzerland. That's exactly it.

:rolleyes:

That's actually true but as usual your statist history books never told you that. :p Gawd you're indoctrinated as hell. And devoted to hijacking threads as well. I put up the references to it before.

Iowanian
06-08-2010, 03:59 PM
"It's not a purse, it's a satchel, Indiana Jones Wears one"

Amnorix
06-08-2010, 04:05 PM
That's actually true but as usual your statist history books never told you that. :p Gawd you're indoctrinated as hell. I put up the references to it before.

Yeah, think I debunked them before too.

You seriously need to think about what you're saying.

What is more probable -- that Germany was afraid of Switzerland, or that Switzerland gave Nazi Germany just about everything they wanted/needed, thereby eliminating any need or desire for Germany to invade in the first place?

Let's face it, Germany didnt' look at Switzerland for its laubensraum, nor did it have any minerals or anything else that it coveted. So it didn't invade. Because it had no reason to. NOT because it was scared to.

vailpass
06-08-2010, 04:05 PM
Good. If you pay your taxes like the rest of us you have nothing to fear from the release of these records.

Fuck you and obama too.

Amnorix
06-08-2010, 04:05 PM
Isn't that what the right said regarding the Patriot Act etc?

It's none of the govt's business in a Declaration of Independence sense. It's another usurption.
Our govt is out of control in spending. What next will they tax? The internet? I heard that's being considered. The air.

Nice to know Americans on both the left and right support being slaves and if there are some that escape they should be punished. Pure evil!

“THEY CAME FIRST for the Communists,
and I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Communist.

THEN THEY CAME for the trade unionists,
and I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a trade unionist.

THEN THEY CAME for the Jews,
and I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Jew.

THEN THEY CAME for those trying to keep their property
and I didn’t speak up because I didn't have as much to keep and relied on what they had to be taken

THEN THEY CAME for Dave Lane
and by that time no one was left to speak up.”


Well done on this. Gotta give credit when credit is due.

BucEyedPea
06-08-2010, 04:07 PM
20th Century

"In the 20th Century, Switzerland deterred invasion and forced involvement in both World Wars with its rugged terrain, a heavily-armed populace, and a policy of relative non-intervention. Prior to WWI, the German Kaiser asked in 1912 what the quarter of a million Swiss militiamen would do if invaded by a half million German soldiers. In response a man from Switzerland replied: "shoot twice and go home".

During the Nazi invasion of France, the Luftwaffe violated Swiss airspace over 200 times; the Swiss responded by forcing down Luftwaffe aircraft and even shot down 11+ Luftwaffe aircraft. The Third Reich responded by sending in saboteurs to destroy Swiss airfields, an unsuccessful endeavor. Shortly thereafter, Hitler called the Swiss "the most despicable and wretched people, mortal enemies of the new Germany" and began immediate plans for the invasion of Switzerland, known as Operation Tannenbaum.

Hitler abandoned Operation Tannenbaum after it was realized that an invasion of Switzerland was untenable, with 20% of the civilian population voluntarily mobilized to defend the country – including old men and young boys, with Swiss women manning anti-aircraft artillery (AAA) pieces and running the civil defense corps. The Third Reich also realized that there was no central government to target, nullifying the strategy of blitzkrieg; most Swiss citizens did not even recognize the authority of the Federal President, and any surrender by the Federal Government would have been ignored in the Cantons. [ ROFL I love it!! My kind of govt!]

The Swiss also defended their sovereignty against Allied aggression as well. After US aircraft began accidentally bombing Swiss towns near the German border, the Swiss Air Force enacted a policy of forcing down single Allied aircraft and shooting at Bomber Formations (some have speculated that the bombings were not accidental and were designed to force Switzerland in the Alliance; during the war, the Swiss flaunted Allied and Axis sanctions by smuggling to the surrounding Axis powers). As accidental bombings persisted, the Swiss government declared that any further accidental bombings would be declared acts of war. Although Switzerland never declared war on the Allies, the Swiss Air Force forced down 23 aircraft in a three-day period in July of '44. In total, 1,700 US airmen were interred during the War and a few US aircraft were even shot down (this chapter of WWII history is entirely missing from US textbooks). "


National Security Swiss Style - Nick Bradley:an analyst in the United States Air Force and is currently pursuing an M.A. in Strategic Intelligence at American Military University (http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig8/bradley1.html)

BucEyedPea
06-08-2010, 04:07 PM
This thread should be in the "I hate "Big Government"...... ohhh wait!"

Sorry mylonsd. I still luv ya' though. It must be just the French part you want to nuke.
This is directed more at some of the responses by alleged libertarians and small govt conservatives.

KC native
06-08-2010, 04:44 PM
That info will be turned over to US authorities. There are several other countries that are going after the Swiss banks for them helping people evade taxes by hiding assets in Swiss bank accounts.

Oh, and BEP, you're still fucking stupid.

KC native
06-08-2010, 04:44 PM
That info will be turned over to US authorities. There are several other countries that are going after the Swiss banks for them helping people evade taxes by hiding assets in Swiss bank accounts.

Oh, and BEP, you're still fucking stupid.

Amnorix
06-08-2010, 04:50 PM
20th Century

"In the 20th Century, Switzerland deterred invasion and forced involvement in both World Wars with its rugged terrain, a heavily-armed populace, and a policy of relative non-intervention. Prior to WWI, the German Kaiser asked in 1912 what the quarter of a million Swiss militiamen would do if invaded by a half million German soldiers. In response a man from Switzerland replied: "shoot twice and go home".

During the Nazi invasion of France, the Luftwaffe violated Swiss airspace over 200 times; the Swiss responded by forcing down Luftwaffe aircraft and even shot down 11+ Luftwaffe aircraft. The Third Reich responded by sending in saboteurs to destroy Swiss airfields, an unsuccessful endeavor. Shortly thereafter, Hitler called the Swiss "the most despicable and wretched people, mortal enemies of the new Germany" and began immediate plans for the invasion of Switzerland, known as Operation Tannenbaum.

Hitler abandoned Operation Tannenbaum after it was realized that an invasion of Switzerland was untenable, with 20% of the civilian population voluntarily mobilized to defend the country – including old men and young boys, with Swiss women manning anti-aircraft artillery (AAA) pieces and running the civil defense corps. The Third Reich also realized that there was no central government to target, nullifying the strategy of blitzkrieg; most Swiss citizens did not even recognize the authority of the Federal President, and any surrender by the Federal Government would have been ignored in the Cantons. [ ROFL I love it!! My kind of govt!]

The Swiss also defended their sovereignty against Allied aggression as well. After US aircraft began accidentally bombing Swiss towns near the German border, the Swiss Air Force enacted a policy of forcing down single Allied aircraft and shooting at Bomber Formations (some have speculated that the bombings were not accidental and were designed to force Switzerland in the Alliance; during the war, the Swiss flaunted Allied and Axis sanctions by smuggling to the surrounding Axis powers). As accidental bombings persisted, the Swiss government declared that any further accidental bombings would be declared acts of war. Although Switzerland never declared war on the Allies, the Swiss Air Force forced down 23 aircraft in a three-day period in July of '44. In total, 1,700 US airmen were interred during the War and a few US aircraft were even shot down (this chapter of WWII history is entirely missing from US textbooks). "


National Security Swiss Style - Nick Bradley:an analyst in the United States Air Force and is currently pursuing an M.A. in Strategic Intelligence at American Military University (http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig8/bradley1.html)



Without spending too much time on the matter, I'm hardly surprised that Lew Rockwell's site focuses its entire narrative on the seemingly invincible citizen army. Here's the Wikipedia entry on Operation Tannenbaum, the cited German plan to invade Switzerland, and the reasons it was never executed.


Possible reasons for non-execution
There are several possible reasons why the Germans did not execute the plan:

Switzerland was not seen as a threat to Germany. Hitler's attention was focused first on the Battle of Britain (http://www.chiefsplanet.com/wiki/Battle_of_Britain) (Operation Sealion (http://www.chiefsplanet.com/wiki/Operation_Sealion), where the few available German mountain divisions were allocated) and afterwards on the invasion of the Soviet Union Operation Barbarossa (http://www.chiefsplanet.com/wiki/Operation_Barbarossa) (already in August/September 1940 large numbers of troops were moved to the East to counter the Soviet (http://www.chiefsplanet.com/wiki/Soviet_Union) threat to Bessarabia (http://www.chiefsplanet.com/wiki/Bessarabia)).
The main window of opportunity for military action against Switzerland was the period between the Fall of France and October/November 1940. After this time, weather would not have permitted a real blitzkrieg attack due to the Swiss terrain. And after the winter of 1940/41 Hitler was occupied with Operation Marita (http://www.chiefsplanet.com/wiki/Operation_Marita) and Barbarossa (http://www.chiefsplanet.com/wiki/Operation_Barbarossa).
Italian dependence on coal imports from Germany after the Italian declaration of war meant the use of an intact Swiss rail network was necessary to meet demand.
While the Swiss military was markedly outnumbered by German forces in artillery and aircraft, to control the nation the Germans would have had to destroy a large and well-trained infantry force drawn directly from the Swiss population. The example of the Winter War (http://www.chiefsplanet.com/wiki/Winter_War) showed how a similar force of trained riflemen could stop a much larger, better equipped army. While some have questioned the notion that Swiss rifles stopped the invasion, there can be no doubt that an invasion would have cost the Germans troops and resources needed elsewhere. Had there been no meaningful Swiss military force, the potential invasion would have been considerably less costly.
The Swiss government (http://www.chiefsplanet.com/wiki/Politics_of_Switzerland) also had a decentralised structure, so even the Federal President (http://www.chiefsplanet.com/wiki/President_of_the_Swiss_Confederation) was a relatively powerless official with no authority to surrender the country. Indeed, Swiss citizens had been instructed to regard any surrender broadcast as enemy lies and resist to the end.
Some industrialists in Switzerland (http://www.chiefsplanet.com/wiki/Switzerland) contributed to the German war effort by selling goods such as ball bearings and parts for torpedo guidance systems, manufactured in facilities that could not be bombed by the Allies due to the country's neutral status.
Switzerland was entirely encircled by Germany and its ally Italy by 1940, and so was already 'controlled' by Germany in that all trade had to occur with Germany or Germany's occupied territories.

As you can see, the cited citizen army is ntoed, as well as the decentralized structure. But there are a number of other very signifciant factors listed there.

And they don't even bother to list yet another factor -- what exactly did Switzerland have that Germany needed badly enough to commit forces? It's not as if the German army had much down time -- invade Poland, invade the low countries and France, invade Greece, hit Crete, try to control North Africa, and invade Russia. It seemingly had enough on its plate to not bother taking Switzerland.

And just to solidify the absurdity of the limited focus of "Germany was ascared of the Swiss", let's look at a map of Europe at the height of German power, while it was still at war with three major powers, including the millions of soldiers engaged on the Russian front.

And you're telling me the big bad guys who own all that red territory are ascared of the ones that own that little gray space in the middle? Yeah.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/images/occupymap.jpg

BucEyedPea
06-08-2010, 04:51 PM
* crickets*

Iowanian
06-08-2010, 04:54 PM
grasshoppers

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RJ
06-08-2010, 05:04 PM
I'm trying to envision a "citizen's army" in my neighborhood. Probably half my neighbors won't even make eye contact at the mail boxes. If the Menacing Horde comes down my block the resistance is going to be minimal. Unless I buy beer. They'll probably show up for beer.

BucEyedPea
06-08-2010, 05:19 PM
I'm trying to envision a "citizen's army" in my neighborhood. Probably half my neighbors won't even make eye contact at the mail boxes. If the Menacing Horde comes down my block the resistance is going to be minimal. Unless I buy beer. They'll probably show up for beer.

Americans have been pussified by BIG govt that's why. They have us right where they want us to day—subjects not free men and women.

Anyhow, I was just trying to show Mr. Indoctrinated why he was wrong about German in that instance, but insisted I was.

orange
06-08-2010, 05:22 PM
Americans have been pussified by BIG govt that's why. They have us right where they want us to day—subjects not free men and women.

Anyhow, I was just trying to show Mr. Indoctrinated why he was wrong about German in that instance, but insisted I was.

That's right. We could never put up the five years of resistance that the free communists of Yugoslavia did.

BucEyedPea
06-08-2010, 05:26 PM
Fact: Hitler backed off of Switzerland.

mlyonsd
06-08-2010, 05:30 PM
This thread should be in the "I hate "Big Government"...... ohhh wait!"

Sorry mylonsd. I still luv ya' though. It must be just the French part you want to nuke.
This is directed more at some of the responses by alleged libertarians and small govt conservatives.

My deal is if American taxpayers are cheating by breaking a law I want it fixed.

I don't like high taxes but I do think people should pay what our laws designate they owe.

Iowanian
06-08-2010, 05:34 PM
Fact: Hitler backed off of Switzerland.

Fact: You're an annoying whackadoo



Maybe he decided it just wasn't worth it for 50lbs of chocolate bars and a yodeling jug band.

BucEyedPea
06-08-2010, 06:16 PM
My deal is if American taxpayers are cheating by breaking a law I want it fixed.

I don't like high taxes but I do think people should pay what our laws designate they owe.
I understand. I thought you wanted to nuke them for it though. I take it you were being cheeky for the sake of driving the point home though.

Anyhow, I prefer to see more rebellion because it just encourages them to take more steps in the wrong direction and taking more privacy.
I say kudos to them and thank God for the Swiss. ( I would never do though. I'm a chickenhawk on this plus I don't have that kind of money to worry about.)

In celebration:

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Chiefspants
06-09-2010, 01:44 AM
And their mts are loaded with munitions even the 3rd Reich was afraid to invade a country where the people are it's army.
This thread should be a tribute to William Tell who told the bully statists off and to get out.

What exactly did Hitler have to gain from the ripe land of Switzerland?

Taco John
06-09-2010, 01:51 AM
Yeah, the Nazis were willing to take on the Russian hordes, but were terrified of Switzerland. That's exactly it.

:rolleyes:



Hordes! That's racist!

BucEyedPea
06-09-2010, 08:29 AM
Yeah, the Nazis were willing to take on the Russian hordes, but were terrified of Switzerland. That's exactly it.

:rolleyes:

I forgot to say, nice STRAWMAN as well.