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View Full Version : Nat'l Security Real-World Illegal Immigrant Article-Long but Good


vailpass
06-09-2010, 02:07 PM
Here is a very good article describing real-life impact illegal immigrants that considers both sides of the story. Written in the ultra-liberal rag Phoenix New Times but well worth the read if you want a first-hand account from the people that live the illegal story every day.

Badlands: For Those Living in the Arizona County That's Ground Zero for Drug and Human Trafficking Along the Border, the Illegal Immigration Crisis Is Personal......(continued at:

http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/2010-06-03/news/badlands-for-those-living-in-the-arizona-county-that-s-ground-zero-for-drug-and-human-trafficking-along-the-border-the-illegal-immigration-crisis-is-personal/

|Zach|
06-09-2010, 02:30 PM
I will be the first one to admit. I am not well versed on illegal immigration as a whole. It just seems to be a mess with no easy answers.

Thinking out loud here...it just seems like we are all culpable in this whole thing. People like buying things cheap. We love the idea of buying...say...a bag of apples for 3 dollars. Paying Americans to do the same thing pushes the bag up apples...to what...7? 10?

Are there Americans ready to step up and take those shitty jobs. Are employers ready to pay those people what they would expect to get paid for it. Are the consumers ready to take on that burden? It is going to be passed to them.

I don't really have a strong opinion either way but this is the kind of stuff I think about. I need to educate myself on all of it.

Brock
06-09-2010, 02:33 PM
Forget the bag of apples, let's talk about how the construction industry is not even discussed as a career path for American kids anymore.

dirk digler
06-09-2010, 02:35 PM
Are there Americans ready to step up and take those shitty jobs. Are employers ready to pay those people what they would expect to get paid for it. Are the consumers ready to take on that burden? It is going to be passed to them.


IMVHO the answer is a definite no on all counts. That is why we have no problem buying cheap shit that was made in sweatshops from Mexico or China.

RJ
06-09-2010, 02:43 PM
Forget the bag of apples, let's talk about how the construction industry is not even discussed as a career path for American kids anymore.

Very true. I don't know about other parts of the country, but here in Albuquerque if you visit a construction site you'll have a hard time finding a non-Hispanic working there, other than the supervisors from the GC.

I don't say that to make any kind of judgment, it's just something I observe on a regular basis.

cdcox
06-09-2010, 02:45 PM
We trade cheaper food and construction for fewer jobs, more taxes, and poorer government services.

vailpass
06-09-2010, 02:50 PM
I will be the first one to admit. I am not well versed on illegal immigration as a whole. It just seems to be a mess with no easy answers.

Thinking out loud here...it just seems like we are all culpable in this whole thing. People like buying things cheap. We love the idea of buying...say...a bag of apples for 3 dollars. Paying Americans to do the same thing pushes the bag up apples...to what...7? 10?

Are there Americans ready to step up and take those shitty jobs. Are employers ready to pay those people what they would expect to get paid for it. Are the consumers ready to take on that burden? It is going to be passed to them.

I don't really have a strong opinion either way but this is the kind of stuff I think about. I need to educate myself on all of it.

This article provides a pretty good Illegal Impact 101, presented from a way-left publication so you don't have to worry about any right-wing indoctrination.

LOCOChief
06-09-2010, 03:01 PM
Are there Americans ready to step up and take those shitty jobs. .

Shitty jobs/ Like carpenters, tile layers, masons,??? Hell yeah and most "Americans" while they might not be as cheap (because we pay back into the system) do a hell of a alot better job. Mexicans don't just do shitty jobs, they do shitty work period.

dirk digler
06-09-2010, 03:07 PM
Mexicans don't just do shitty jobs, they do shitty work period.

That hasn't been my experience.

Donger
06-09-2010, 04:12 PM
I will be the first one to admit. I am not well versed on illegal immigration as a whole. It just seems to be a mess with no easy answers.

Thinking out loud here...it just seems like we are all culpable in this whole thing. People like buying things cheap. We love the idea of buying...say...a bag of apples for 3 dollars. Paying Americans to do the same thing pushes the bag up apples...to what...7? 10?

Are there Americans ready to step up and take those shitty jobs. Are employers ready to pay those people what they would expect to get paid for it. Are the consumers ready to take on that burden? It is going to be passed to them.

I don't really have a strong opinion either way but this is the kind of stuff I think about. I need to educate myself on all of it.

I recently had some work done on my driveway, and had five companies give bids. I made it clear that I would not accept any workers that were illegal. That's apparently not a usual demand, because three of the companies did not bid.

I probably paid more for the company that I finally chose, but I don't care.

vailpass
06-09-2010, 04:17 PM
I recently had some work done on my driveway, and had five companies give bids. I made it clear that I would not accept any workers that were illegal. That's apparently not a usual demand, because three of the companies did not bid.

I probably paid more for the company that I finally chose, but I don't care.

This action, more than any other, if adopted across this country no matter what the job, will help the illegal immigration problem.
The illegal criminal operations i.e. drugs, human trafficking, are a separate issue.

KC Dan
06-09-2010, 04:26 PM
This action, more than any other, if adopted across this country no matter what the job, will help the illegal immigration problem.
The illegal criminal operations i.e. drugs, human trafficking, are a separate issue.I've had some work done at my place (what I didn't have time for myself) & I profiled the workers. Is that wrong?

i don't care now that I think about it....

Detoxing
06-09-2010, 04:27 PM
Shitty jobs/ Like carpenters, tile layers, masons,??? Hell yeah and most "Americans" while they might not be as cheap (because we pay back into the system) do a hell of a alot better job. Mexicans don't just do shitty jobs, they do shitty work period.

What an ignorant, bitter statement. Same with the "mexican's are taking all the construction Jobs" statement.

Most of the construction workers i know are all white. And since most are unions, they aren't Illegal. A lot of the carpenters, masons and tile layers are private business and are white. The Mexicans that i do know that are carpenters do very good quality work. They dont half ass it like a lot of other guys. Mexicans are known for being hard workers.

My boss, a white guy, prefers hiring Mexicans (legal) over white guys, and it has nothing to do with pay, seeing as our head body foreman is Mexican and makes more money than anyone. He likes them because they work hard, don't bitch, and don't over value themselves.

I cant recall my dad, who is a carpenter, ever working with any mexicans. All of his co workers were cocky white or black guys who thought they deserved 25 bucks an hour but always wanted to cut out early.

Im not saying this is the same for every case, nor am I bagging on anyone, but my experience is the opposite of the statements some of you are making.

Now landscapers and plumbers OTOH.....

Detoxing
06-09-2010, 04:32 PM
And furthermore, some of the best Automotive work is done by Mexicans. Some of the best Automotive painters are Mexican. The best detail/buffer guy in So-cal is Mexican. That "beaner" charges whitie over 10K for a color sand and buff on cars worth over 1 mill.

Lyle Fisk, a legendary pin striper with the ranks of Ed Big Daddy Roth, is a Mexican.

So to say that they dont do good quality work is pretty fucking stupid.

petegz28
06-09-2010, 04:35 PM
IMVHO the answer is a definite no on all counts. That is why we have no problem buying cheap shit that was made in sweatshops from Mexico or China.

It was reported on Bloomberg today that the Auto Makers are looking to produce more in Mexico where the will pay the Mexican workers less than 1/10 of what American workers would be paid. They said it would be around $4 and hr.

petegz28
06-09-2010, 04:37 PM
Shitty jobs/ Like carpenters, tile layers, masons,??? Hell yeah and most "Americans" while they might not be as cheap (because we pay back into the system) do a hell of a alot better job. Mexicans don't just do shitty jobs, they do shitty work period.

I can't say that. While the Mexicans that built my deck did a rather less than desireable job, the one's that did my landscaping did pretty fucking good.

Donger
06-09-2010, 04:37 PM
And furthermore, some of the best Automotive work is done by Mexicans. Some of the best Automotive painters are Mexican. The best detail/buffer guy in So-cal is Mexican. That "person of Hispanic heritage" charges whitie over 10K for a color sand and buff on cars worth over 1 mill.

Lyle Fisk, a legendary pin striper with the ranks of Ed Big Daddy Roth, is a Mexican.

So to say that they dont do good quality work is pretty ****ing stupid.

A Mexican named Lyle Fisk?

vailpass
06-09-2010, 04:37 PM
And furthermore, some of the best Automotive work is done by Mexicans. Some of the best Automotive painters are Mexican. The best detail/buffer guy in So-cal is Mexican. That "person of Hispanic heritage" charges whitie over 10K for a color sand and buff on cars worth over 1 mill.

Lyle Fisk, a legendary pin striper with the ranks of Ed Big Daddy Roth, is a Mexican.

So to say that they dont do good quality work is pretty ****ing stupid.

Are you about done or can we expect more of your rant?

Hydrae
06-09-2010, 04:39 PM
Forget the bag of apples, let's talk about how the construction industry is not even discussed as a career path for American kids anymore.

My son in law graduated from high school with a certification as an electrician and has worked in that field since then, 6 years now.

It seems like all we hear about when it comes to high school is college prep. That is not right for everyone. We should keep kids on the same track through their sophmore year and then have them spend the last two years of school either on a college prep track or something closer to an apprenticeship track to learn a skill they can take out to the real world. This would better support them across the board no matter which way they go after high school.

vailpass
06-09-2010, 04:39 PM
A Mexican named Lyle Fisk?

A legendary pin striper? How about a world-renowned muffler guy?
The god-like window tinter?

Detoxing
06-09-2010, 04:39 PM
A Mexican named Lyle Fisk?

Yep. Very cool old man. Met him him through our air brush artist.

Detoxing
06-09-2010, 04:43 PM
Are you about done or can we expect more of your rant?

You're not in the industry. But of course, like always, because you haven't experienced it or seen it, it can't be true right?

It's pretty sad dude.

Lyle Fisk recently came out in a book called, "legends of Pinstripping" They did an excerpt on him. Back in the 70's people paid BIG time money for his work and still do.

I've met these people and worked with them.

So, you believe Mexicans do shitty work? Is that your take on things?

Detoxing
06-09-2010, 04:44 PM
Are you about done or can we expect more of your rant?

So, do you believe that all mexicans do shitty labor?

Detoxing
06-09-2010, 04:48 PM
A legendary pin striper? How about a world-renowned muffler guy?
The god-like window tinter?

http://lylefisk.com/ENTER.htm

But of course, im lying right?

You're so full of your self Vail. You come off as a very bitter old man.

vailpass
06-09-2010, 04:53 PM
http://lylefisk.com/ENTER.htm

But of course, im lying right?

You're so full of you self Vail. You come off as a very bitter old man.

Do I think you are lying? No.
Am I bitter? Not at all, I wake up every morning looking forward to what the day will bring. Life is good, my family is happy so I'm happy.
Am I old? Getting there. 43 feels old some days no doubt but what can I do?
Do I find the term "legendary pinstriper" amusing? Oh yes.
It's like "epic car detailer" or "celebrated window washer".

RJ
06-09-2010, 04:55 PM
Shitty jobs/ Like carpenters, tile layers, masons,??? Hell yeah and most "Americans" while they might not be as cheap (because we pay back into the system) do a hell of a alot better job. Mexicans don't just do shitty jobs, they do shitty work period.


I deal with (legal) Mexican workers every day and that is not true in my experience. In fact, the flooring installers I work with here are the best I've ever worked with anywhere and every one of them is from Mexico.

vailpass
06-09-2010, 04:55 PM
So, do you believe that all mexicans do shitty labor?

Of course not, they are bad, good or excellent depending on which ones you get just like any other nationality.

Donger
06-09-2010, 04:58 PM
Yep. Very cool old man. Met him him through our air brush artist.

So, he's not an American? He's a Mexican national living in the US?

Detoxing
06-09-2010, 05:01 PM
Do I think you are lying? No.
Am I bitter? Not at all, I wake up every morning looking forward to what the day will bring. Life is good, my family is happy so I'm happy.
Am I old? Getting there. 43 feels old some days no doubt but what can I do?
Do I find the term "legendary pinstriper" amusing? Oh yes.
It's like "epic car detailer" or "celebrated window washer".

So you don't think a Pinstripper can be legendary in his Industry? You wouldn't call Chip Foose a legend in his industry? Or Big Daddy Roth?

No they are not celebrities, but in THIS industry, they are HUGE names. I don't know anyone in our business who does not know who Ed "Big Daddy" Roth is.

And how many Auto Buffers do you know that can charge more than what most people's cars are worth? I understand that you don't know, but it doesn't make it not true or any less impressive. People send their cars from all over the country for this guy to polish, because he's the best at it. He does pebble beach kinda cars. Our shop couldn't even afford to employ him to polish out some of our cars.

And it may be hard for some of you to swallow, but guess what, he's a Mexican. If i could remember his last name I'd google him for you too. Juan-something....I'll have to ask my boss for his last name.

Detoxing
06-09-2010, 05:01 PM
Of course not, they are bad, good or excellent depending on which ones you get just like any other nationality.

That's all I was saying, yet you still chose to give me a hard time about it.

Detoxing
06-09-2010, 05:05 PM
So, he's not an American? He's a Mexican national living in the US?

Mexican American. Just like all these unionized construction workers, masons, carpenters, handymen, etc.

I understand you don't want illegals working on your property. That's fine. There is nothing wrong with that. But my posts are more in response to LoCochief....or whatever the **** his name is.

vailpass
06-09-2010, 05:06 PM
So you don't think a Pinstripper can be legendary in his Industry? You wouldn't call Chip Foose a legend in his industry? Or Big Daddy Roth?

No they are not celebrities, but in THIS industry, they are HUGE names. I don't know anyone in our business who does not know who Ed "Big Daddy" Roth is.

And how many Auto Buffers do you know that can charge more than what most people's cars are worth? I understand that you don't know, but it doesn't make it not true or any less impressive. People send their cars from all over the country for this guy to polish, because he's the best at it. He does pebble beach kinda cars. Our shop couldn't even afford to employ him to polish out some of our cars.

And it may be hard for some of you to swallow, but guess what, he's a Mexican. If i could remember his last name I'd google him for you too. Juan-something....I'll have to ask my boss for his last name.


Do you really think I, or most people, have any clue who chip foose or ed roth is?

RJ
06-09-2010, 05:06 PM
And BTW, good article so far but you're right.....it is long. I don't know if i have enough goof-off time to finish it. Damn job.

You know, it occurs to me....I have a job Americans don't want to do. Where's a Mexican when you need one?

RJ
06-09-2010, 05:09 PM
Of course not, they are bad, good or excellent depending on which ones you get just like any other nationality.

Of course.

I happen to work with some great flooring installers who are from Mexico. I've also known some really bad flooring installers from Mexico.

Detoxing
06-09-2010, 05:11 PM
Do you really think I, or most people, have any clue who chip foose or ed roth is?

A lot of people know who they are. Dude, Chip has his own, incredibly successful show, "Overhaulin' " You know that "Elenore" Mustang in "Gone in 60 Seconds" that everyone thinks is a Shelby? That's a Foose design that Shelby put his name on to market it.

Did you know that large companies such as Ford and GM out source there sculpting and CAD to a company owned by Chip Foose?

Chip is a huge name.

Chip is to cars as Jesse James is to motorcycles. Like I said, A Legend in his industry, which happens to be a very, very big industry.

Big Daddy Roth is HUGE name in the auto paint and graphics industry. If you know custom cars, you know who these people are.

Once again; Legends in their industry.

vailpass
06-09-2010, 05:15 PM
A lot of people know who they are. Dude, Chip has his own, incredibly successful show, "Overhaulin' " You know that "Elenore" Mustang in "Gone in 60 Seconds" that everyone thinks is a Shelby? That's a Foose design that Shelby put his name on to market it.

Did you know that large companies such as Ford and GM out source there sculpting and CAD to a company owned by Chip Foose?

Chip is a huge name.

Chip is to cars as Jesse James is to motorcycles. Like I said, A Legend in his industry, which happens to be a very, very big industry.

Big Daddy Roth is HUGE name in the auto paint and graphics industry. If you know custom cars, you know who these people are.

Once again; Legends in their industry.

Sounds great, I respect anyone who is good at what they do regardless of what they do.
Doesn't mean I can't find the term "legendary pinstriper" amusing. People need to lighten up and quit looking to get offended.

vailpass
06-09-2010, 05:24 PM
Has anyone other than RJ (thanks RJ)glanced at the article?

Donger
06-09-2010, 05:25 PM
Mexican American. Just like all these unionized construction workers, masons, carpenters, handymen, etc.

I understand you don't want illegals working on your property. That's fine. There is nothing wrong with that. But my posts are more in response to LoCochief....or whatever the **** his name is.

Okay, but I hope that you realize that there's a massive difference between the two.

Detoxing
06-09-2010, 05:27 PM
Okay, but I hope that you realize that there's a massive difference between the two.

Obviously. Im not arguing on behalf of Illegals. Im arguing against this retarded generalization that "Mexicans dont do good quality work"

Donger
06-09-2010, 05:30 PM
Has anyone other than RJ (thanks RJ)glanced at the article?

The vast majority of the incoming illegal aliens have no criminal designs

:spock:

RJ
06-09-2010, 05:33 PM
Has anyone other than RJ (thanks RJ)glanced at the article?


It's interesting stuff. I've traveled the border all the from east Texas to east Arizona and I know the area the article is about. I've been through places like Douglas and Bisbee. Personally, I can't imagine those Mexicans that walk through that part of the country. Wherever they're going, they must want to get there bad.

vailpass
06-09-2010, 05:58 PM
The vast majority of the incoming illegal aliens have no criminal designs

:spock:

It is from a totally left leaning local rag. You have to ignore the opinions, the interviews with law enforcement and the border dwellers are informative.

Donger
06-09-2010, 06:05 PM
It is from a totally left leaning local rag. You have to ignore the opinions, the interviews with law enforcement and the border dwellers are informative.

Yes, it was an interesting read. Thank you.

KC native
06-09-2010, 06:11 PM
The vast majority of the incoming illegal aliens have no criminal designs

:spock:

Not everyone is a pedantic asshole like you.

KC native
06-09-2010, 06:15 PM
Actually a decent article. Nothing groundbreaking but I didn't see anything wrong with it.

I do have one quibble with the picture of drug smuggling. The people carrying drugs are small timers. The big loads come in on 18 wheelers and train cars. The people carrying loads can carry 50-100 lbs tops. A semi can have a couple of tons.

Donger
06-09-2010, 06:24 PM
Not everyone is a pedantic asshole like you.

You don't think it's ridiculous that they wrote that?

BigChiefFan
06-09-2010, 06:29 PM
If you want to come to the USA and become part of society the right way, than more power to you, but doing it illegally isn't the answer and once again, it's a bullshit argument. Illegals are ILLEGALS. Fix your own damn country. I'm sick of the liberals stance on the issue. If you want them here so bad, YOU PAY FOR IT. I want my tax dollars going to those that play by the rules.

Capricorn
06-09-2010, 07:26 PM
This is my personal take, why in the world would anyone want to allow illegal ALIEN'S to continue to infiltrate our society?

1. They and there families are an extreme burden on our health system.
2. They shoot out a kid on our soil, we pay the bill, the kid is naturalized, entitled to so much more than you or I.
3. How much does it cost manufacturer's and such to have to label everything they produce in English & Spanish?
4. Why are Manufacturers required to label in two languages at all?
5. The Alien's are not always invading our country to do good.

What am I missing here?

Donger
06-09-2010, 07:29 PM
This is my personal take, why in the world would anyone want to allow illegal ALIEN'S to continue to infiltrate our society?

1. They and there families are an extreme burden on our health system.
2. They shoot out a kid on our soil, we pay the bill, the kid is naturalized, entitled to so much more than you or I.
3. How much does it cost manufacturer's and such to have to label everything they produce in English & Spanish?
4. Why are Manufacturers required to label in two languages at all?
5. The Alien's are not always invading our country to do good.

What am I missing here?

You are obviously a racist, and probably pedantic as well.

KC native
06-09-2010, 09:16 PM
You don't think it's ridiculous that they wrote that?

No.

Donger
06-09-2010, 09:19 PM
No.

How come? Is there some disconnect between illegal and criminal of which I'm not aware?

KC native
06-09-2010, 09:27 PM
How come? Is there some disconnect between illegal and criminal of which I'm not aware?

Do you really feel like rehashing this argument?

Donger
06-09-2010, 09:28 PM
Do you really feel like rehashing this argument?

Sure. Proceed.

KC native
06-09-2010, 09:33 PM
Sure. Proceed.

No.

headsnap
06-09-2010, 09:38 PM
No.


come on... there are those of us that missed it the first 3 times you failed...

Donger
06-09-2010, 09:48 PM
No.

So, you think that illegal immigrants are not criminals?

Simple question.

KC native
06-09-2010, 10:01 PM
Initiate pedantic inane questioning subroutine 1

.

Donger
06-09-2010, 10:06 PM
.

The only possible conclusion that I can reach is that you think illegal and criminal are not the same when when it comes to illegal immigration.

Is that correct or not?

Hydrae
06-10-2010, 07:36 AM
The only possible conclusion that I can reach is that you think illegal and criminal are not the same when when it comes to illegal immigration.

Is that correct or not?

Do you ever speed? Are you a criminal? :Poke:

morphius
06-10-2010, 07:39 AM
I will be the first one to admit. I am not well versed on illegal immigration as a whole. It just seems to be a mess with no easy answers.

Thinking out loud here...it just seems like we are all culpable in this whole thing. People like buying things cheap. We love the idea of buying...say...a bag of apples for 3 dollars. Paying Americans to do the same thing pushes the bag up apples...to what...7? 10?

Are there Americans ready to step up and take those shitty jobs. Are employers ready to pay those people what they would expect to get paid for it. Are the consumers ready to take on that burden? It is going to be passed to them.

I don't really have a strong opinion either way but this is the kind of stuff I think about. I need to educate myself on all of it.
Anyone who believes that the illegal immigrants are doing jobs that Americans won't do has not seen an episode of Dirty Jobs...

Otter
06-10-2010, 08:42 AM
Has anyone other than RJ (thanks RJ)glanced at the article?

I read the entire article but didn't take much from it outside 'a day in the life of...' which is neat but doesn't do too much to advance the subject. Everyone is getting fucked and our government has sit back idle watching a mole grow into a 10 pound tumor.

Bottom line to me is these people broke the law. They invaded sovereign soil with no regard for our laws or respect for our borders.

Disney Land fills up with thousands of people a day. When you shut down the rides and turn off the lights people leave without having to be escorted out at the end of a gun barrel.

Take away free education, health care, access to any community service on any government level and enforce hiring illegals on the employer side and the proverbial lights are shut off and the rides are stopped.

If they have legal children by exploiting the birthright law give them an option to take their kids with them or leave them here. Cruel? Not when you consider they put themselves in this position by free will and through breaking the law.

Detoxing
06-10-2010, 09:43 AM
I read the entire article but didn't take much from it outside 'a day in the life of...' which is neat but doesn't do too much to advance the subject. Everyone is getting ****ed and our government has sit back idle watching a mole grow into a 10 pound tumor.

Bottom line to me is these people broke the law. They invaded sovereign soil with no regard for our laws or respect for our borders.

Disney Land fills up with thousands of people a day. When you shut down the rides and turn off the lights people leave without having to be escorted out at the end of a gun barrel.

Take away free education, health care, access to any community service on any government level and enforce hiring illegals on the employer side and the proverbial lights are shut off and the rides are stopped.

If they have legal children by exploiting the birthright law give them an option to take their kids with them or leave them here. Cruel? Not when you consider they put themselves in this position by free will and through breaking the law.


And what if that child was born in Mexico, and then brought here when they were weeks old and has been here all their life, even into their 20's. What then?

Now you have an adult, who is undocumented but has lived in America their entire life, knows nothing of Mexico, schooled in America, is American by culture. What happens to someone like that?

Otter
06-10-2010, 09:47 AM
And what if that child was born in Mexico, and then brought here when they were weeks old and has been here all their life, even into their 20's. What then?

Now you have an adult, who is undocumented but has lived in America their entire life, knows nothing of Mexico, schooled in America, is American by culture. What happens to someone like that?

They suffer the consequences of their parents poor decision making by having to go back to the country where they can legally reside and apply for citizenship under the consideration of their background I'd imagine.

Donger
06-10-2010, 09:51 AM
And what if that child was born in Mexico, and then brought here when they were weeks old and has been here all their life, even into their 20's. What then?

Now you have an adult, who is undocumented but has lived in America their entire life, knows nothing of Mexico, schooled in America, is American by culture. What happens to someone like that?

They are illegal and should be deported.

Detoxing
06-10-2010, 09:54 AM
They suffer the consequences of their parents poor decision making by having to go back to the country where they can legally reside.


That's not a well thought out answer. Why should this person have to pay the consequences for their parents mistake? Do you have to pay for the consequences of your parents mistakes?

This is why the system is fucked.

This is the situation of someone I know.

Her parents came here illegally. Got pregnant, and fear of having their daughter taken away, went back across the border to give birth. Then, after giving birth, came back.

So, since she was two weeks old, she has been living here in America. She isn't from Mexico. She is raised in America. Went through school in America. All of her friends, her entire life is in America. It's not her fault. She has never even been to Mexico.

She is by all accounts, aside from some paperwork, an American girl. You wouldn't know the difference.

And your answer is to ship her to Mexico? Where she would be an outcast, nowhere to go, no friends, no family. Coming from a completely different culture? That's a good solution? Really?

There needs to be a law for someone like this. There should be a way to legalize someone in this sort of situation.

Detoxing
06-10-2010, 09:56 AM
They are illegal and should be deported.

You don't think there should be a law passed to help someone in this sort of situation? you would rather take an otherwise American, and just ship them to a country they know nothing of....jesus..some of you are unreal.

Donger
06-10-2010, 09:58 AM
That's not a well thought out answer. Why should this person have to pay the consequences for their parents mistake? Do you have to pay for the consequences of your parents mistakes?

This is why the system is ****ed.

This is the situation of someone I know.

Her parents came here illegally. Got pregnant, and fear of having their daughter taken away, went back across the border to give birth. Then, after giving birth, came back.

So, since she was two weeks old, she has been living here in America. She isn't from Mexico. She is raised in America. Went through school in America. All of her friends, her entire life is in America. It's not her fault. She has never even been to Mexico.

She is by all accounts, aside from some paperwork, an American girl. You wouldn't know the difference.

And your answer is to ship her to Mexico? Where she would be an outcast, nowhere to go, no friends, no family. Coming from a completely different culture? That's a good solution? Really?

There needs to be a law for someone like this. There should be a way to legalize someone in this sort of situation.

The fact remains that she is here illegally, whether through her mother's actions or not. She's paying for her mother's actions, true, but she's still not a US citizen. She should have to go back to the place of her birth and apply for permanent residency.

That's the thing: there IS a legal process for immigration.

Otter
06-10-2010, 09:59 AM
That's not a well thought out answer. Why should this person have to pay the consequences for their parents mistake? Do you have to pay for the consequences of your parents mistakes?

This is why the system is ****ed.

This is the situation of someone I know.

Her parents came here illegally. Got pregnant, and fear of having their daughter taken away, went back across the border to give birth. Then, after giving birth, came back.

So, since she was two weeks old, she has been living here in America. She isn't from Mexico. She is raised in America. Went through school in America. All of her friends, her entire life is in America. It's not her fault. She has never even been to Mexico.

She is by all accounts, aside from some paperwork, an American girl. You wouldn't know the difference.

And your answer is to ship her to Mexico? Where she would be an outcast, nowhere to go, no friends, no family. Coming from a completely different culture? That's a good solution? Really?

There needs to be a law for someone like this. There should be a way to legalize someone in this sort of situation.

And how exactly does your solution deter 15 million more people from using the same exploit to gain citizenship?

Donger
06-10-2010, 10:00 AM
You don't think there should be a law passed to help someone in this sort of situation? you would rather take an otherwise American, and just ship them to a country they know nothing of....jesus..some of you are unreal.

Laws are funny that way. What would you propose? "If you weren't born here but have lived most of your life here illegally, that's okay. You're comped."?

What does that say to the thousands of people who are trying to immigrate legally?

Detoxing
06-10-2010, 10:04 AM
The fact remains that she is here illegally, whether through her mother's actions or not. She's paying for her mother's actions, true, but she's still not a US citizen. She should have to go back to the place of her birth and apply for permanent residency.

That's the thing: there IS a legal process for immigration.

She would have to go back to Juarez mexico, the rape and murder capitol of that country. You wanna send an American girl to Juarez?

That's not good enough.

So here is this girl who gets to watch her friends get jobs and enjoy the benefits of having a social and she can't do anything. She is american. She doesn't know what it's like to be from Mexico. This isn't someone who border hoped.

She won't steal a social because she knows it's wrong. She has never been in any trouble, nothing but a good student. She is a whitewashed, American girl. Sending her to mexico is suicide. She would not survive there.

A law needs to be passed to people like this. I bring this up because she spoke to an immigration lawyer this week. Even the Lawyer told her that going to Juarez is suicide, because she would face extreme prejuidice. She could not pass as a Mexican from Mexico.

Something has to be done about cases like these.

Detoxing
06-10-2010, 10:06 AM
And how exactly does your solution deter 15 million more people from using the same exploit to gain citizenship?

IF it's something that you could prove. She has school records dating all the way back from pre school. Her Diploma is proof enough that she is and can be a contributing member of American Society.

She already is.

Otter
06-10-2010, 10:06 AM
She would have to go back to Juarez mexico, the rape and murder capitol of that country. You wanna send an American girl to Juarez?

That's not good enough.

So here is this girl who gets to watch her friends get jobs and enjoy the benefits of having a social and she can't do anything. She is american. She doesn't know what it's like to be from Mexico. This isn't someone who border hoped.

She won't steal a social because she knows it's wrong. She has never been in any trouble, nothing but a good student. She is a whitewashed, American girl. Sending her to mexico is suicide. She would not survive there.

A law needs to be passed to people like this. I bring this up because she spoke to an immigration lawyer this week. Even the Lawyer told her that going to Juarez is suicide, because she would face extreme prejuidice. She could not pass as a Mexican from Mexico.

Something has to be done about cases like these.

Why does she have to go to Juarez as opposed to say a more stable area?

Donger
06-10-2010, 10:06 AM
She would have to go back to Juarez mexico, the rape and murder capitol of that country. You wanna send an American girl to Juarez?

That's not good enough.

So here is this girl who gets to watch her friends get jobs and enjoy the benefits of having a social and she can't do anything. She is american. She doesn't know what it's like to be from Mexico. This isn't someone who border hoped.

She won't steal a social because she knows it's wrong. She has never been in any trouble, nothing but a good student. She is a whitewashed, American girl. Sending her to mexico is suicide. She would not survive there.

A law needs to be passed to people like this. I bring this up because she spoke to an immigration lawyer this week. Even the Lawyer told her that going to Juarez is suicide, because she would face extreme prejuidice. She could not pass as a Mexican from Mexico.

Something has to be done about cases like these.

No, she isn't an American. She is a Mexican citizen living in the United States illegally.

Donger
06-10-2010, 10:07 AM
IF it's something that you could prove. She has school records dating all the way back from pre school. Her Diploma is proof enough that she is and can be a contributing member of American Society.

She already is.

Let's see her birth certificate.

Otter
06-10-2010, 10:08 AM
IF it's something that you could prove. She has school records dating all the way back from pre school. Her Diploma is proof enough that she is and can be a contributing member of American Society.

She already is.

And this prevents others from using the same exploit how?

Sorry, but being nice has gotten us nothing buy our faces rubbed in the dirt and being called racists when we want the problem addressed. But you'll be happy to know I'm not president so I have no more power than you do in having my viewpoint enforced.

Detoxing
06-10-2010, 10:20 AM
No, she isn't an American. She is a Mexican citizen living in the United States illegally.

Ok, and there should be a law that allows to her to go through whatever necessary steps to fix her citizenship. She isn't asking for amnesty. She wants to do everything the right way. But, going to Juarez is, literaly suicide.

Why are you lumping her in a group with the guys that sit across the street from Home depot.

The only difference between her and her best friend is a freaking birth certificate. She is raised American. It's not her fault her parents fucked up.

She can't have a life in Mexico. It's not going to work. It'd be like sending a gringo to Mexico who has spent there entire life in America, giving them a pat on the back and then saying, "Good Luck, hope you dont get raped and disrimanated against"

And you're telling her she can't have a life in America either, even though she has been here since she was a baby and knows nothing but American Culture.

Donger, I understand your extreme views towards the border hoppers, but you should understand that not every case is the same, especially the horrible situation that this young girl faces. You cant just say, "too bad, your parents fucked up, even though you arent from Mexico, are a white-washed mexican, have never even been to Mexico, we're shipping you to Juarez anyway"

Detoxing
06-10-2010, 10:23 AM
Why does she have to go to Juarez as opposed to say a more stable area?

Apparently, according to the lawyer, they all have to go to Juarez for a minimum of 2 months, maximum of 15 mos, and that still does not guarantee approval. She could go down there and be stuck there for the rest of her life.

She has no home their, no friends, no one. Nor does she know anything about that culture. She acts white, like an American. Dresses like an American. She wouldn't stand a chance down there.

Like I said, she understands that she needs to do it right. But America needs to give her the chance to do it right. What else can she do to hold on to the only life she has ever known?

Detoxing
06-10-2010, 10:25 AM
Thank God not everyone thinks like Donger:

The DREAM Act
By Nick - 90 AP
Last edited: 9 Apr 2010 - 2:50pm

Over three million students graduate from U.S. high schools every year. Most get the opportunity to test their dreams and live their American story. However, a group of approximately 65,000 youth do not get this opportunity; they are smeared with an inherited title, an illegal immigrant. These youth have lived in the United States for most of their lives and want nothing more than to be recognized for what they are, Americans.

The DREAM Act is a bipartisan legislation ‒ pioneered by Sen. Orin Hatch [R-UT] and Sen. Richard Durbin [D-IL] ‒ that can solve this hemorrhaging injustice in our society. Under the rigorous provisions of the DREAM Act, qualifying undocumented youth would be eligible for a 6 year long conditional path to citizenship that requires completion of a college degree or two years of military service.

Otter
06-10-2010, 10:27 AM
Apparently, according to the lawyer, they all have to go to Juarez for a minimum of 2 months, maximum of 15 mos, and that still does not guarantee approval. She could go down there and be stuck there for the rest of her life.

She has no home their, no friends, no one. Nor does she know anything about that culture. She acts white, like an American. Dresses like an American. She wouldn't stand a chance down there.

Like I said, she understands that she needs to do it right. But America needs to give her the chance to do it right. What else can she do to hold on to the only life she has ever known?

Thank you. Now how do you address every case like this with the compassion you want to see without giving incentive to millions more to use the same exploit in gaining citizenship for their children?

Detoxing
06-10-2010, 10:30 AM
Thank you. Now how do you address every case like this with the compassion you want to see without giving incentive to millions more to use the same exploit in gaining citizenship for their children?

See my post above.

When I come on here, I dont argue cases for the guy across the street from Home depot. More or less, I agree with most on here. But situations like hers really gets under my skin. These people are American Cultured and know nothing but America. They have the same education and a lot of the same beliefs. They have adopted American Culture. They have tried to become functioning parts of American Society. There should be a law that doesn't require them to be deported to a country they know nothing of that they'll be disriminated against in. So many people who are ignorant of the true issues here just wanna lump all Mexicans together.

Well, Mexicans from Mexico do not like Mexicans from America. They just don't. She would be fresh meat out there. Sending an American Accented girl to Juarez is like sending her to die.

The DREAM Act solves this issue perfectly, IMO.

Otter
06-10-2010, 10:47 AM
See my post above.

When I come on here, I dont argue cases for the guy across the street from Home depot. More or less, I agree with most on here. But situations like hers really gets under my skin. These people are American Cultured and know nothing but America. They have the same education and a lot of the same beliefs. They have adopted American Culture. They have tried to become functioning parts of American Society. There should be a law that doesn't require them to be deported to a country they know nothing of that they'll be disriminated against in. So many people who are ignorant of the true issues here just wanna lump all Mexicans together.

Well, Mexicans from Mexico do not like Mexicans from America. They just don't. She would be fresh meat out there. Sending an American Accented girl to Juarez is like sending her to die.

The DREAM Act solves this issue perfectly, IMO.

I'll mark your answer as: it does provide an easy loophole for future illegals to exploit but I'm emotionally attached.

Detoxing
06-10-2010, 10:49 AM
I'll mark your answer as: it does provide an easy loophole for future illegals to exploit but I'm emotionally attached.

How is the DREAM Act a loophole for future immigrants? The dream act does nothing for the majority of illegals. Nothing.

Otter
06-10-2010, 10:57 AM
How is the DREAM Act a loophole for future immigrants? The dream act does nothing for the majority of illegals. Nothing.

It encourages parents to bring their kids over illegally young based on the amnesty given through the dream act in hopes of being part of dream act part II. Much like the 1986 amnesty accomplished but on a smaller scale and with a different approach.

Detoxing
06-10-2010, 11:05 AM
It encourages parents to bring their kids over illegally young based on the amnesty given through the dream act in hopes of being part of dream act part II. Much like the 1986 amnesty accomplished but on a smaller scale and with a different approach.

Amnesty? Hardly.

In order to become documented they have to complete high school and at least 2 years of college or military service. It forces them to become, intelligent, diverse members of American Society. That's what we want, isn't it? Functioning members of society that help fuel it, not feed off of it? And if can continue to secure our borders, then teh amount of illegals coming over should significantly decrease. The number of students who qualify for the DREAM act would reduce yearly.

How many citizens do we have now that don't even finish high school or attend college? They just waste away.

Dont you think an educated citizen is more valuable to society than an uneducated one? You don't think that AT least 2 years of college is enough to prove that you can be a functioning member of society?

Donger
06-10-2010, 11:06 AM
Ok, and there should be a law that allows to her to go through whatever necessary steps to fix her citizenship. She isn't asking for amnesty. She wants to do everything the right way. But, going to Juarez is, literaly suicide.

Why are you lumping her in a group with the guys that sit across the street from Home depot.

The only difference between her and her best friend is a freaking birth certificate. She is raised American. It's not her fault her parents ****ed up.

She can't have a life in Mexico. It's not going to work. It'd be like sending a gringo to Mexico who has spent there entire life in America, giving them a pat on the back and then saying, "Good Luck, hope you dont get raped and disrimanated against"

And you're telling her she can't have a life in America either, even though she has been here since she was a baby and knows nothing but American Culture.

Donger, I understand your extreme views towards the border hoppers, but you should understand that not every case is the same, especially the horrible situation that this young girl faces. You cant just say, "too bad, your parents ****ed up, even though you arent from Mexico, are a white-washed mexican, have never even been to Mexico, we're shipping you to Juarez anyway"

What would you suggest instead of the present law?

Donger
06-10-2010, 11:09 AM
Thank God not everyone thinks like Donger:

The DREAM Act
By Nick - 90 AP
Last edited: 9 Apr 2010 - 2:50pm

Over three million students graduate from U.S. high schools every year. Most get the opportunity to test their dreams and live their American story. However, a group of approximately 65,000 youth do not get this opportunity; they are smeared with an inherited title, an illegal immigrant. These youth have lived in the United States for most of their lives and want nothing more than to be recognized for what they are, Americans.

The DREAM Act is a bipartisan legislation ‒ pioneered by Sen. Orin Hatch [R-UT] and Sen. Richard Durbin [D-IL] ‒ that can solve this hemorrhaging injustice in our society. Under the rigorous provisions of the DREAM Act, qualifying undocumented youth would be eligible for a 6 year long conditional path to citizenship that requires completion of a college degree or two years of military service.

I don't oppose that, actually, only if it only applies to the kids, not the parents. I would oppose it if the kids get public assistance to complete college, however.

Although I think it would encourage pregnant mothers to come across the border soon after birth (or before) to take advantage of it.

Hydrae
06-10-2010, 11:10 AM
This example from Detoxing is the reason why illegals should not have access to services that are intended for citizens. I am sorry but this young lady should have never had the opportunuity to go to a public school paid for by tax paying citizens. This would have stopped the problem many years ago because her parents would have had a need to move back to their own country so she could attend school.

Donger
06-10-2010, 11:12 AM
This example from Detoxing is the reason why illegals should not have access to services that are intended for citizens. I am sorry but this young lady should have never had the opportunuity to go to a public school paid for by tax paying citizens. This would have stopped the problem many years ago because her parents would have had a need to move back to their own country so she could attend school.

Yep. What do you want to bet that she's got a SSN?

Otter
06-10-2010, 11:14 AM
Amnesty? Hardly.

In order to become documented they have to complete high school and at least 2 years of college or military service. It forces them to become, intelligent, diverse members of American Society. That's what we want, isn't it? Functioning members of society that help fuel it, not feed off of it? And if can continue to secure our borders, then teh amount of illegals coming over should significantly decrease. The number of students who qualify for the DREAM act would reduce yearly.

How many citizens do we have now that don't even finish high school or attend college? They just waste away.

Dont you think an educated citizen is more valuable to society than an uneducated one? You don't think that AT least 2 years of college is enough to prove that you can be a functioning member of society?

Before I answer any more of your questions could you please answer mine in a 'yes' or 'no' fashion?

Can you see how citizenship attained through the dream act will inspire more parents to bring children over illegally in hopes of catching the next dream act as opposed to applying for citizenship legally?

Otter
06-10-2010, 11:16 AM
This example from Detoxing is the reason why illegals should not have access to services that are intended for citizens. I am sorry but this young lady should have never had the opportunuity to go to a public school paid for by tax paying citizens. This would have stopped the problem many years ago because her parents would have had a need to move back to their own country so she could attend school.

Agree. It has a total domino affect that's why I've given up on compromise. That and the fact of being called 'puto' and 'racist' because I don't want my country to become a third world cess pool from the invaders from mexico.

Detoxing
06-10-2010, 11:17 AM
I don't oppose that, actually, only if it only applies to the kids, not the parents. I would oppose it if the kids get public assistance to complete college, however.

Although I think it would encourage pregnant mothers to come across the border soon after birth (or before) to take advantage of it.

Which it would only apply to these good students. If you read the act, not only does it require you to complete at least 2 yrs of college, but also requires you to be a good citizen. So, those who have been deported and have returned would not be eligable. Those who have been jailed would not be eligible.

It gives you the opportunity to be rewarded with citizenship if you can prove that you can be a model citizen and contributing member of society.

Detoxing
06-10-2010, 11:20 AM
Yep. What do you want to bet that she's got a SSN?

She doesn't. I already posted that.

Why doesn't she? Because she is afraid that if she gets caught with an Illegal SSN then it would jeopordize her chances to become a citizen.

So...all she can do is find jobs that pay her under the table, like baby sitting, and wait. Wait for something like the dream act to pass.

Detoxing
06-10-2010, 11:22 AM
Before I answer any more of your questions could you please answer mine in a 'yes' or 'no' fashion?

Can you see how citizenship attained through the dream act will inspire more parents to bring children over illegally in hopes of catching the next dream act as opposed to applying for citizenship legally?

Yes.

Of course it would. But if we secure our borders, like we have been doing, then it would greatly reduce their ability to actually get over here. Wanting to be here and having the ability to get here are two different things.

Dont you think plenty of immigrants want to come over here regardless of the Act?

Donger
06-10-2010, 11:23 AM
She doesn't. I already posted that.

Why doesn't she? Because she is afraid that if she gets caught with an Illegal SSN then it would jeopordize her chances to become a citizen.

So...all she can do is find jobs that pay her under the table, like baby sitting, and wait. Wait for something like the dream act to pass.

As she should be. Honestly, it sounds like she should be pissed at her mother the most. She caused this.

Detoxing
06-10-2010, 11:25 AM
As she should be. Honestly, it sounds like she should be pissed at her mother the most. She caused this.

Which she is. She resents her for it. She has had the American Life style pounded in her head since she was a baby, just like every one of us. But, she can't do anything about it. She can't have it.

It's unfortunate. Neither Country wants her.

Otter
06-10-2010, 11:42 AM
Yes.

Of course it would. But if we secure our borders, like we have been doing, then it would greatly reduce their ability to actually get over here. Wanting to be here and having the ability to get here are two different things.

Dont you think plenty of immigrants want to come over here regardless of the Act?

Absolutely and they do by the millions both legally and illegally. Do you have any idea how many legal immigrants the US accepts on a yearly bases when you include permanent, long-term, short-term, H1B and L1 and all the others?

About 30 million a year?

http://www.dhs.gov/xlibrary/assets/statistics/publications/ni_fr_2009.pdf

vailpass
06-10-2010, 11:56 AM
And what if that child was born in Mexico, and then brought here when they were weeks old and has been here all their life, even into their 20's. What then?

Now you have an adult, who is undocumented but has lived in America their entire life, knows nothing of Mexico, schooled in America, is American by culture. What happens to someone like that?

Goodbye. Feel free to apply for citizenship once you get back to Mexico.

Huffmeister
06-10-2010, 12:51 PM
She doesn't. I already posted that.

If she doesn't have an SSN, how does she pay her taxes? (If this has already been covered, I didn't see it)

KC native
06-10-2010, 05:53 PM
Some real classy posts in this thread.

LOCOChief
06-10-2010, 08:51 PM
What an ignorant, bitter statement. Same with the "mexican's are taking all the construction Jobs" statement.

Most of the construction workers i know are all white. And since most are unions, they aren't Illegal. A lot of the carpenters, masons and tile layers are private business and are white. The Mexicans that i do know that are carpenters do very good quality work. They dont half ass it like a lot of other guys. Mexicans are known for being hard workers.

My boss, a white guy, prefers hiring Mexicans (legal) over white guys, and it has nothing to do with pay, seeing as our head body foreman is Mexican and makes more money than anyone. He likes them because they work hard, don't bitch, and don't over value themselves.

I cant recall my dad, who is a carpenter, ever working with any mexicans. All of his co workers were cocky white or black guys who thought they deserved 25 bucks an hour but always wanted to cut out early.

Im not saying this is the same for every case, nor am I bagging on anyone, but my experience is the opposite of the statements some of you are making.

Now landscapers and plumbers OTOH.....

I'm here in SW Fl and while I'm not saying that they don't work hard, I am saying for the most part they do sub par work.. You want em building pianos for you fine, but not me.