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Direckshun
06-17-2010, 08:41 AM
Is going to take a while.

No duh statement of the day, I'm sure.

Here are some horrific anti-semitic images (http://www.tomgrossmedia.com/mideastdispatches/archives/001118.html) printed in editorial cartoons in the Middle East. Check them out, they're stunning.

If there's a way to douse these flames of extreme religious hatred, I'd like to hear them.

Direckshun
06-17-2010, 08:42 AM
The irony in this one is especially touching:

http://www.adl.org/Anti_semitism/arab/cartoons/flotillacartoons/flotillacartoon_32.jpg

HonestChieffan
06-17-2010, 08:53 AM
Is going to take a while.

No duh statement of the day, I'm sure.

Here are some horrific anti-semitic images (http://www.tomgrossmedia.com/mideastdispatches/archives/001118.html) printed in editorial cartoons in the Middle East. Check them out, they're stunning.

If there's a way to douse these flames of extreme religious hatred, I'd like to hear them.

Well the current policy s to avoid being friends with Israel, give US Tax money to Hamas, join the UN in support for terrorists like Iran, Turkey, and other Jew hate regimes.

Radar Chief
06-17-2010, 08:57 AM
The irony in this one is especially touching:

http://www.adl.org/Anti_semitism/arab/cartoons/flotillacartoons/flotillacartoon_32.jpg

.

Direckshun
06-17-2010, 09:09 AM
Well the current policy s to avoid being friends with Israel,

Except for the immunity we give everything they do.

And the billions we give to them every year -- more than any other country on earth.

SLAG
06-17-2010, 09:12 AM
I am a Palestinian

This mess is wayyy too f'd up - there isn't really much else to say about it

I am not anti-Semitic - but I am Anti Israel

Direckshun
06-17-2010, 09:20 AM
I am a Palestinian

This mess is wayyy too f'd up - there isn't really much else to say about it

I am not anti-Semitic - but I am Anti Israel

Wow, I had no fucking clue.

What do you mean anti-Israel? As in you never believe the nation should have been founded? Or you heavily disagree with their actions as a military and police power re: Gaza and the Palestinians?

Otter
06-17-2010, 09:24 AM
If there's a way to douse these flames of extreme religious hatred, I'd like to hear them.No. One side is going to need to wipe the other out. They'll never come to an mutual agreement. Ever.

Or do you want to hear unicorns and rainbow bullshit? Did you see that video of the monkey using the frogs ****ing body to jerk off with? We're one layer above that chimp. Figure out if your the monkey or the frog real quick bitch or someone will do it for you.

SLAG
06-17-2010, 09:31 AM
Wow, I had no ****ing clue.

What do you mean anti-Israel? As in you never believe the nation should have been founded? Or you heavily disagree with their actions as a military and police power re: Gaza and the Palestinians?

All of the above

I do realize its a bit late for Israel to just go away - its nice to dream isn't it....

The Occupation and the Police state that has been created has only increased tensions in the area.

Fundamentalist muslim jiahad's should butt out of the fight too - between them and the Zionists... idk.. maybe lock them both all up and never let either out... that might be your best way for peace

Direckshun
06-17-2010, 09:33 AM
No. One side is going to need to wipe the other out. They'll never come to an mutual agreement. Ever.

Or do you want to hear unicorns and rainbow bullshit? Did you see that video of the monkey using the frogs ****ing body to jerk off with? We're one layer above that chimp. Figure out if your the monkey or the frog real quick bitch or someone will do it for you.

Yippekayay, motherfucker.

petegz28
06-17-2010, 09:37 AM
Where's The Zohan????

Otter
06-17-2010, 09:38 AM
Yippekayay, mother****er.

Am I wrong?

Take history in to account before answering.

Direckshun
06-17-2010, 09:39 AM
All of the above

I do realize its a bit late for Israel to just go away - its nice to dream isn't it....

The Occupation and the Police state that has been created has only increased tensions in the area.

Fundamentalist muslim jiahad's should butt out of the fight too - between them and the Zionists... idk.. maybe lock them both all up and never let either out... that might be your best way for peace

I honestly don't mind the creation of Israel in the Middle East. It's a necessary respite to protect them from being absurdly oppressed by whatever Muslim majority they'd be subject to if we hadn't created Israel.

The incredibly unfortunate blowback on that decision was that we ended up giving them a minority of their own, and they've effectively done to the Palestinians what we feared a Muslim majority would do to them.

It's a problem that needed time for a solution to crystalize. And while a two-state solution is not the be-all end-all of peace in Israel, it would effectively end the police state, bring the victimization that Palestine's felt to a conclusion in a couple generations, and begin a roadmap for a more stable region.

I think the poverty and religiousity of the region have made pure peace unreasonable at this time. But stability isn't an impossible goal.

Otter
06-17-2010, 09:43 AM
Yippekayay, mother****er.

For the record "bitch" just seemed to fit in there, it wasn't really directed towards anyone.

Donger
06-17-2010, 10:30 AM
Yes, we really should care about the Palestinians:

<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/KrM0dAFsZ8k&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/KrM0dAFsZ8k&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

KC Dan
06-17-2010, 10:34 AM
Yes, we really should care about the Palestinians
</EMBED>Put their flag in your avatar then....

Donger
06-17-2010, 10:45 AM
Put their flag in your avatar then....

I'm not that pompous.

petegz28
06-17-2010, 11:35 AM
<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/8wslHVtmk3E&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/8wslHVtmk3E&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

FishingRod
06-17-2010, 03:03 PM
I am a Palestinian

This mess is wayyy too f'd up - there isn't really much else to say about it

I am not anti-Semitic - but I am Anti Israel

SLAG, Just curious do you feel the Palestinians have been treated worse by their so called enemies ( the Israelis) or their so called friends ( see Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia and so forth) . I've for the most part seen the Palestinians as a people that great lip service was given to with regard to their plight but we don't want them in our country either.

SLAG
06-17-2010, 06:17 PM
SLAG, Just curious do you feel the Palestinians have been treated worse by their so called enemies ( the Israelis) or their so called friends ( see Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia and so forth) . I've for the most part seen the Palestinians as a people that great lip service was given to with regard to their plight but we don't want them in our country either.
I think that is a fair assessment...

The locals in Jordan and Syria have equal disdain for the Israelis as well as the Saudis in particularly at least when I visited there in 2002

Bill Parcells
06-17-2010, 06:35 PM
The Jews and Palestinians have been disliking each other for forever. even before the creation of Israel in 1948, and before WWII. there will never be peace there. ever.

patteeu
06-18-2010, 08:14 AM
The sooner the world recognizes that the palestinians' problems are caused by the Arabs (from surrounding countries) rather than the Israelis, the sooner the conflict can be resolved.

Huffmeister
06-18-2010, 03:30 PM
No. One side is going to need to wipe the other out. They'll never come to an mutual agreement. Ever.

Or do you want to hear unicorns and rainbow bullshit?

What color do I need to change my font to in order to help foster peace in Israel?

Iowanian
06-18-2010, 03:32 PM
The answer is obviously to have a beer with them, share an uncomfortably long hug and give the Palestinians millions of US dollars to buy weapons from "humanitarian convoys".

orange
06-18-2010, 03:44 PM
there will never be peace there. ever.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_bjqmGmHDb1w/SUPpTl-5aKI/AAAAAAAABvs/UltgDaBXSEA/s320/anti-japanese-propaganda-poste-+hate.jpg http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_osrVjnPbdEM/S4_NWKtddgI/AAAAAAAAXL8/31_99VayXDo/s640/Anti-American_propaganda_from_north_korea_10.jpg

Donger
06-18-2010, 04:19 PM
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_bjqmGmHDb1w/SUPpTl-5aKI/AAAAAAAABvs/UltgDaBXSEA/s320/anti-japanese-propaganda-poste-+hate.jpg http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_osrVjnPbdEM/S4_NWKtddgI/AAAAAAAAXL8/31_99VayXDo/s640/Anti-American_propaganda_from_north_korea_10.jpg

What are you trying to say, orange?

Taco John
06-18-2010, 04:30 PM
Bitches get stitches...

vailpass
06-18-2010, 04:39 PM
Trailers get hitches...

Captain Obvious
06-18-2010, 04:41 PM
Where's The Zohan????

I don't know. You'd just better not mess with him.

orange
06-18-2010, 04:44 PM
What are you trying to say, orange?

I'm trying to say (1) people get over things.
(2) propaganda pictures are extreme; it doesn't mean anything.

mlyonsd
06-18-2010, 05:34 PM
Can someone give me a one paragraph synopsis of what the Palestinians and rest of the Arab world want that would once and for all make them happy for good?

KC Dan
06-18-2010, 05:42 PM
Can someone give me a one paragraph synopsis of what the Palestinians and rest of the Arab world want that would once and for all make them happy for good?All Jewish people dead and the entire world converted to Islam with full Sharia law in effect. Nothing else will suffice.

patteeu
06-18-2010, 05:47 PM
All Jewish people dead and the entire world converted to Islam with full Sharia law in effect. Nothing else will suffice.

Is that really too much to ask for a lasting peace? /Direckshun

vailpass
06-18-2010, 06:09 PM
Is that really too much to ask for a lasting peace? /Direckshun

ROFL

Taco John
06-18-2010, 06:17 PM
I hope that you guys, and, of course, the Isreali people, and, uh, the Palistinain people can come to some sort of compromise.

orange
06-18-2010, 06:27 PM
Can someone give me a one paragraph synopsis of what the Palestinians and rest of the Arab world want that would once and for all make them happy for good?

NOT this:

http://rtsf.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/israeli-war-crimes.jpg

NOR this:

http://allisonkilkenny.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/gaza3.jpg

NOT this either:

http://gaza2009.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/gaza_blood1.jpg

NOPE, not this one:

http://artintifada.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/gaza-ruine-021.jpg?w=480

THIS maybe?

http://www.indybay.org/uploads/2008/12/27/gaza.massacre.27dec08.jpg

No, I don't think so.


You got me. What could they possibly want?

mlyonsd
06-18-2010, 06:30 PM
All Jewish people dead and the entire world converted to Islam with full Sharia law in effect. Nothing else will suffice.

Well I have to admit something close to that would be my first impression as well. I'm wondering if anything short of that is what they are asking for.

Would all Jews moving out of Israel and moving back to Germany or Poland be the only thing that would suffice? Or is there some middle ground as far as land goes? For example if Israel gave back all the land they claimed during the 6 day war would that be enough?

BucEyedPea
06-18-2010, 06:32 PM
What are you trying to say, orange?

My Gawd, you actually had to ask a question about THAT!? LMAO

mlyonsd
06-18-2010, 06:34 PM
NOT this:

http://rtsf.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/israeli-war-crimes.jpg

NOR this:

http://allisonkilkenny.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/gaza3.jpg

NOT this either:

http://gaza2009.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/gaza_blood1.jpg

NOPE, not this one:

http://artintifada.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/gaza-ruine-021.jpg?w=480

THIS maybe?

http://www.indybay.org/uploads/2008/12/27/gaza.massacre.27dec08.jpg

No, I don't think so.


You got me. What could they possibly want?

Are all of those pictures of Palestinians? Or are some of them Jews killed by rockets?

patteeu
06-18-2010, 06:36 PM
You got me. What could they possibly want?

I don't know, but your post didn't get us any closer to the answer.

Direckshun
06-18-2010, 06:37 PM
Can someone give me a one paragraph synopsis of what the Palestinians and rest of the Arab world want that would once and for all make them happy for good?

All Jewish people dead and the entire world converted to Islam with full Sharia law in effect. Nothing else will suffice.

Ha. I was going to answer mlyonsd's question sarcastically by going way over the top, but my reply looked exactly like KC Dan's.

Congratulations, you know nothing.

To honestly answer your question, mlyonsd: no. Nobody can summarize what the Palestinians and the rest of the Arab world want that would end violence in Israel, in one measly paragraph. If I were to even try, the necessary lack of specificity inherent in the answer would get me roasted for pages upon pages.

go bowe
06-18-2010, 06:44 PM
Ha. I was going to answer mlyonsd's question sarcastically by going way over the top, but my reply looked exactly like KC Dan's.

Congratulations, you know nothing.

To honestly answer your question, mlyonsd: no. Nobody can summarize what the Palestinians and the rest of the Arab world want that would end violence in Israel, in one measly paragraph. If I were to even try, the necessary lack of specificity inherent in the answer would get me roasted for pages upon pages.roasting is good...

what do the moderate palestinians and arab regimes want?

go bowe
06-18-2010, 06:48 PM
All of the above

I do realize its a bit late for Israel to just go away - its nice to dream isn't it....

The Occupation and the Police state that has been created has only increased tensions in the area.

Fundamentalist muslim jiahad's should butt out of the fight too - between them and the Zionists... idk.. maybe lock them both all up and never let either out... that might be your best way for peaceother than an end to the occupation, which is a given, what do the moderate palestinians want from israel in order for peace to become possible?

Direckshun
06-18-2010, 06:55 PM
roasting is good...

what do the moderate palestinians and arab regimes want?

I'm happy to answer the question (obviously), but unfortunately for me, I'm running out for the evening.

I'll be back either tonight or tomorrow with material, if you'll allow.

Maybe somebody else can pick up the baton in my absence.

orange
06-18-2010, 06:59 PM
Are all of those pictures of Palestinians? Or are some of them Jews killed by rockets?

When you KILL PEOPLE wantonly, you should expect them to fight back.

How many Israeli communities have been invaded and destroyed by the Arabs in the last, oh, fifty years?

mlyonsd
06-18-2010, 07:00 PM
I don't know, but your post didn't get us any closer to the answer.

Right, exactly. I think we have all taken sides. I'll admit I'm on the Israeli side. As a third party observer I'm trying to determine if my position is justified depending on what it will take for everyone to be happy.

orange
06-18-2010, 07:05 PM
I don't know, but your post didn't get us any closer to the answer.

They want to stop being stolen from, overrun, starved, and killed for starters. They also want some kind of "government by consent of the governed."

mlyonsd
06-18-2010, 07:12 PM
other than an end to the occupation, which is a given, what do the moderate palestinians want from israel in order for peace to become possible?

And, if I might tag along....will the moderate palestinians getting what they want really end the violence?

stevieray
06-18-2010, 07:13 PM
When you KILL PEOPLE wantonly, you should expect them to fight back.

How many Israeli communities have been invaded and destroyed by the Arabs in the last, oh, fifty years?

They tried thirty-three years ago, and got their asses kicked.

stevieray
06-18-2010, 07:17 PM
other than an end to the occupation, which is a given, what do the moderate palestinians want from israel in order for peace to become possible?
...it's not an occupation, it's their homeland.... the Palenstinians didn't build King Solomon's temple. God's prophecy was fulfilled when no stone was left unturned and the Temple destroyed... Jews scattered to the four corners of the Earth, and their subsequent homecoming.

orange
06-18-2010, 07:21 PM
...it's not an occupation, it's their homeland.... the Palenstinians didn't build King Solomon's temple. God's prophecy was fulfilled when no stone was left unturned and the Temple destroyed... Jews scattered to the four corners of the Earth, and their subsequent homecoming.

... And there we have it in a NUTshell. America OWES Israel unqualified support because it's our duty to God! :)

stevieray
06-18-2010, 07:23 PM
... And there we have it in a NUTshell. America OWES Israel unqualified support because it's our duty to God! :)

as He died to make men Holy, let us die to make men free.

stevieray
06-18-2010, 07:28 PM
... And there we have it in a NUTshell. America OWES Israel unqualified support because it's our duty to God! :)
....and Iran has a "duty" to destroy Israel, becasue Iran is the Persian word for Aryan...

:doh!:

SLAG
06-18-2010, 08:03 PM
other than an end to the occupation, which is a given, what do the moderate palestinians want from israel in order for peace to become possible?

Since this was actually directed at me.. i will attempt an answer


in short

Jerusalem

If Israel said the Gaza Strip and Jerusalem were now in the Official Palestinian State... and the occupation was over

I think 95% of the Palestinians would back off

The problem is - the Christians have supported Israel for precisely the reason of having the "Jews" have their "homeland" because that is where Jesus is supposedly to return - F'n Religion ruins everything...

patteeu
06-18-2010, 08:44 PM
They want to stop being stolen from, overrun, starved, and killed for starters. They also want some kind of "government by consent of the governed."

Israel already tried that several times and it didn't work. Guess again.

mlyonsd
06-18-2010, 08:48 PM
Since this was actually directed at me.. i will attempt an answer


in short

Jerusalem

If Israel said the Gaza Strip and Jerusalem were now in the Official Palestinian State... and the occupation was over

I think 95% of the Palestinians would back off

The problem is - the Christians have supported Israel for precisely the reason of having the "Jews" have their "homeland" because that is where Jesus is supposedly to return - F'n Religion ruins everything...

Thanks for the response. You paint a pretty dim picture though. At least in my mind.

googlegoogle
06-18-2010, 08:54 PM
There will never be peace there.

go bowe
06-18-2010, 09:29 PM
And, if I might tag along....will the moderate palestinians getting what they want really end the violence?no, it won't end the violence but it probably would reduce it somewhat...

the hard liners in hamas and other terrorist groups will never give up the "fight" but they would lose the popular support that they have now and it's possible that fatah or a new coalition in charge of palestine would actually go back to arresting terrorists...

patteeu
06-18-2010, 09:47 PM
Since this was actually directed at me.. i will attempt an answer


in short

Jerusalem

If Israel said the Gaza Strip and Jerusalem were now in the Official Palestinian State... and the occupation was over

I think 95% of the Palestinians would back off

The problem is - the Christians have supported Israel for precisely the reason of having the "Jews" have their "homeland" because that is where Jesus is supposedly to return - F'n Religion ruins everything...

95% backing off isn't enough to even make sharing Jerusalem attractive, much less handing over complete control. The other 5% are enough to make that arrangement untenable. The 95% are going to have to be willing to kick the 5%'s ass or at least turn them in to the authorities to become a realistic peace partner and then only for some kind of shared control situation.

Mr. Kotter
06-18-2010, 09:56 PM
95% backing off isn't enough to even make sharing Jerusalem attractive, much less handing over complete control. The other 5% are enough to make that arrangement untenable. The 95% are going to have to be willing to kick the 5%'s ass or at least turn them in to the authorities to become a realistic peace partner and then only for some kind of shared control situation.

5% assholes should be tazed. They should be erased from the planet. Driven into the Red Sea.

Yeah, folks like you. Heh. So just, fugg ya'all. "Here's a quarter, call someone who cares...bi-atch."

:)

Have a great night, patty.

go bowe
06-18-2010, 10:11 PM
5% assholes should be tazed. They should be erased from the planet. Driven into the Red Sea.

Yeah, folks like you. Heh. So just, fugg ya'all. "Here's a quarter, call someone who cares...bi-atch."

:)

Have a great night, patty.have you been drinking again tonight?

you're slurring your words... :eek: :eek: :eek:

Mr. Kotter
06-18-2010, 10:17 PM
have you been drinking again tonight?

you're slurring your words... :eek: :eek: :eek:

Not a single word is slurred....that would have been....

5% aaazzz-hhhholllles shuddd be tazzzzz-eeeddd. They should be eraaaazzzz---eede from the plAAA-Nutttt. Dr-VVVVven in da Reddddddddd Seeeeea.

Yeah! Biaaaa-ttttchhhh. Fugged-up folks, like youu----unns. Heh. So just, fugg-fukkkkkkk-FUCCCCCCKKKK yOOOU 'all. "Here's a PENNY, call someone who cares...puzzy-azzzz-lezzzbo-bi-ATTTTCCCchhhh."

;)

go bowe
06-18-2010, 10:24 PM
you left lezzbo out of the first version... LMAO LMAO LMAO

Direckshun
06-19-2010, 12:56 AM
roasting is good...

what do the moderate palestinians and arab regimes want?

"Arab regimes" is difficult to say, because they're not a monolithic group. They're actually a complex web of different motives. And "Arab regimes" only describes part of the power structure in the Middle East, because there are some Arab countries that ultimately don't have that much control over their own population. In Syria and Lebanon, for example, a hard right militia power is militarily more powerful than either country. What that militia wants is distinct from what the governments themselves want.

As for the "moderate Palestinians," my answer is fairly simple: your question is a nonstarter, because there actually aren't any moderate Palestinians at this point.

Easily most (maybe even all) Palestinians hate the Israeli government and any Israelis who support it, they all want to refuse any Israeli rule over their lives, they would prefer Israel as a formal nation not to exist at all rather than exist in some sort of two-state solution, and they will embrace any political party that believes in that aim with the most sincerity (i.e., Hamas). And they don't do it for no reason.

Moderate Palestinians will exist when the Palestinian populace hasn't been forced by the government into a nationwide shanty-town. Moderate Palestinians will exist when the Israeli government allows them to build an economy. Moderate Palestinians will exist when the Israeli government allows in more humanitarian aid (Israel's taken a positive step in that direction as of late). Moderate Palestinians will exist when Jerusalem and parts of current Palestine are not being preemptively stolen through UN-prohibited settlements by the Israeli government.

When all these things happen, you make the people you're oppressing more radical and a lot less moderate.

Israel's government has had, perhaps, earnest intentions. They've been attacked by some really nasty Palestinian terrorists, and they think they can fix the problem the American way: sheer force and complete control.

But that just makes Palestinian grievances more extreme, and there's a lot less ground for moderation when you're debating humanitarian aid rather than border allocation and sovereignty. So instead of a more moderate population, you end up with a population more willing to support the hardliners that hates Israel, and a more impoverished, unemployed population with scores to settle. A breeding ground for extremism if there ever was one.

So before we can settle for what moderate Palestinians want, we have to have a moderate Palestinian population that matters. And you'll only do that if the most oppressive police state actions cease.

Once they do, it will probably take a generation or so for the Palestinians to mellow enough to get their most crucial religious/political issues resolved: sovereignty over ALL Palestinian land, not just the land that hasn't yet been stolen by the Israeli government through settlements. Jerusalem is an insanely tricky matter with which there are no clear cut solutions, but both parties treating the matter as fairly as possible is enough to ease tensions.

But the tensions will continue with some rogue members of society, even in this two-state solution a generation down the road. There will still be occasional Palestinian terrorists haunting the Israeli population one tragic attack at a time. But like most terrorism, that can be resolved by getting a functional economy, not by eliminating Islam as a religion. And I don't pretend to know how crack-able that nut is. But get a functional economy going again, in a fair two-state solution a generation or two down the road... and I'm betting you will see the terrorism in the region between Jews and Palestinians decrease to historic levels.

Not nonexistant levels. And because of the religious issues, not even average levels. But historic levels for sure.

In no way would that be easy, or will it be guaranteed. But that's the clearest answer I can accumulate.

patteeu
06-19-2010, 06:54 AM
5% assholes should be tazed. They should be erased from the planet. Driven into the Red Sea.

Yeah, folks like you. Heh. So just, fugg ya'all. "Here's a quarter, call someone who cares...bi-atch."

:)

Have a great night, patty.

Huh?

patteeu
06-19-2010, 06:57 AM
"Arab regimes" is difficult to say, because they're not a monolithic group. They're actually a complex web of different motives. And "Arab regimes" only describes part of the power structure in the Middle East, because there are some Arab countries that ultimately don't have that much control over their own population. In Syria and Lebanon, for example, a hard right militia power is militarily more powerful than either country. What that militia wants is distinct from what the governments themselves want.

As for the "moderate Palestinians," my answer is fairly simple: your question is a nonstarter, because there actually aren't any moderate Palestinians at this point.

Easily most (maybe even all) Palestinians hate the Israeli government and any Israelis who support it, they all want to refuse any Israeli rule over their lives, they would prefer Israel as a formal nation not to exist at all rather than exist in some sort of two-state solution, and they will embrace any political party that believes in that aim with the most sincerity (i.e., Hamas). And they don't do it for no reason.

Moderate Palestinians will exist when the Palestinian populace hasn't been forced by the government into a nationwide shanty-town. Moderate Palestinians will exist when the Israeli government allows them to build an economy. Moderate Palestinians will exist when the Israeli government allows in more humanitarian aid (Israel's taken a positive step in that direction as of late). Moderate Palestinians will exist when Jerusalem and parts of current Palestine are not being preemptively stolen through UN-prohibited settlements by the Israeli government.

When all these things happen, you make the people you're oppressing more radical and a lot less moderate.

Israel's government has had, perhaps, earnest intentions. They've been attacked by some really nasty Palestinian terrorists, and they think they can fix the problem the American way: sheer force and complete control.

But that just makes Palestinian grievances more extreme, and there's a lot less ground for moderation when you're debating humanitarian aid rather than border allocation and sovereignty. So instead of a more moderate population, you end up with a population more willing to support the hardliners that hates Israel, and a more impoverished, unemployed population with scores to settle. A breeding ground for extremism if there ever was one.

So before we can settle for what moderate Palestinians want, we have to have a moderate Palestinian population that matters. And you'll only do that if the most oppressive police state actions cease.

Once they do, it will probably take a generation or so for the Palestinians to mellow enough to get their most crucial religious/political issues resolved: sovereignty over ALL Palestinian land, not just the land that hasn't yet been stolen by the Israeli government through settlements. Jerusalem is an insanely tricky matter with which there are no clear cut solutions, but both parties treating the matter as fairly as possible is enough to ease tensions.

But the tensions will continue with some rogue members of society, even in this two-state solution a generation down the road. There will still be occasional Palestinian terrorists haunting the Israeli population one tragic attack at a time. But like most terrorism, that can be resolved by getting a functional economy, not by eliminating Islam as a religion. And I don't pretend to know how crack-able that nut is. But get a functional economy going again, in a fair two-state solution a generation or two down the road... and I'm betting you will see the terrorism in the region between Jews and Palestinians decrease to historic levels.

Not nonexistant levels. And because of the religious issues, not even average levels. But historic levels for sure.

In no way would that be easy, or will it be guaranteed. But that's the clearest answer I can accumulate.

It's not Israel who has kept palestinians in shanty towns all these years.

BucEyedPea
06-19-2010, 02:33 PM
I bet I could bring peace to the area. Ayup!

Valiant
06-19-2010, 04:04 PM
There is no peace unless one side is completly dead..

Hardliners and extremist will never let peace happen, if they do then they have zero power over the people..

As a person though, I through my support towards Israel..

BucEyedPea
06-19-2010, 05:47 PM
What you do is work with the moderates to an agreement...then get the to squeeze the extremists out.
That an a few other confidential techniques I have.

Mr. Kotter
06-19-2010, 09:57 PM
What you do is work with the moderates to an agreement...then get the to squeeze the extremists out.
That an a few other confidential techniques I have.

Just like in the U.S., right? Heh.

The voice of experience, eh? Extremists always get squeezed out.

So "techniques" are all you got left, right? Heh. LMAO

go bowe
06-19-2010, 10:47 PM
Just like in the U.S., right? Heh.

The voice of experience, eh? Extremists always get squeezed out.

So "techniques" are all you got left, right? Heh. LMAOi always thought it was babies that get squeezed out...

Mr. Kotter
06-19-2010, 11:14 PM
i always thought it was babies that get squeezed out...

Maybe, but you ever heard of Kegle Exercises...that's some mighty good squeezing there. Heh.

That, and Linda Lovelace imitations I've heard about sound really cool.

go bowe
06-19-2010, 11:21 PM
oh yeah, i love me some kegel...

was linda the ugly one?

the ivory soap girl came later, didn't she?

Mr. Kotter
06-19-2010, 11:23 PM
oh yeah, i love me some kegel...

was linda the ugly one?

the ivory soap girl came later, didn't she?

I can't remember either, sorry. Heh. LMAO

go bowe
06-20-2010, 01:44 AM
gettin' old rob, you're gettin' old...

ForeverChiefs58
06-21-2010, 12:41 PM
I am a Palestinian

This mess is wayyy too f'd up - there isn't really much else to say about it

I am not anti-Semitic - but I am Anti Israel


Guess what? If you are against the creation of isreal, you are anti semetic you realize this right? I can't be against the birth of africa and obsess and bitch about it like I can change it, and still not be a racist asshole douchbag.
You support groups like hamas. They are not sworn to peace, a palastinian state, or helping anyone, but to isreals destruction. If they could take their focus off of hating, they could make progress, but you can't make deals with someone who has hitler type ideas and dreams, not peace. A people who cheer and celebrate on 9-11 as thousands die because we are an ally to their enemy. They can burn a flag and picture of our president, but if someone so much as draws a f%$ picture of muhammad as a terrorist they riot and kill all over the world. They would elect al-queda, and osama bin laden as their president if they could.

ClevelandBronco
06-21-2010, 12:43 PM
...So "techniques" are all you got left, right? Heh. LMAO

Dammit, keep quiet. Those techniques are confidential.

go bowe
06-21-2010, 12:55 PM
from wikipedia:

Annette Krüger Spitta of the ARD's (German public broadcasting) TV magazine Panorama states that footage not aired shows that the street surrounding the celebration in Jerusalem is quiet. Furthermore, she states that a man in a white T-shirt incited the children and gathered people together for the shot. The Panorama report, dated September 20, 2001, quotes Communications Professor Martin Löffelholz explaining that in the images one sees jubilant Palestinian children and several adults but there is no indication that their pleasure is related to the attack. The woman seen cheering (Nawal Abdel Fatah) stated afterwards that she was offered cake if she celebrated on camera, and was frightened when she saw the pictures on television afterward.<sup class="reference" id="cite_ref-23">[24]</sup> http://snipurl.com/xmfgx

go bowe
06-21-2010, 01:04 PM
* * *
A people who cheer and celebrate on 9-11 as thousands die because we are an ally to their enemy.see the text from wiki...

the pna condemned the attacks and the demonstrations were apparently small and some at least were staged, according to the excerpt from wiki...

They can burn a flag and picture of our president, but if someone so much as draws a f%$ picture of muhammad as a terrorist they riot and kill all over the world. They would elect al-queda, and osama bin laden as their president if they could.the problem isn't so much whether muhammad is depcited as a terrorist, it's that under their religion any image or representation of the phophet is strictly forbidden...

ClevelandBronco
06-21-2010, 01:11 PM
see the text from wiki...

the pna condemned the attacks and the demonstrations were apparently small and some at least were staged, according to the excerpt from wiki...

the problem isn't so much whether muhammad is depcited as a terrorist, it's that under their religion any image or representation of the phophet is strictly forbidden...

Should I be expected to follow the rules of a game I'm not playing?

ForeverChiefs58
06-21-2010, 01:41 PM
the problem isn't so much whether muhammad is depcited as a terrorist, it's that under their religion any image or representation of the phophet is strictly forbidden...

The problem is that their religion doesn't tell them it is wrong for anyone with representation to the prophet to lie or kill, too bad that little part isn't as forbidden.

<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/tj6bx0X1EPI&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/tj6bx0X1EPI&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/NJ_Kh8ecoxk&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/NJ_Kh8ecoxk&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/kRyLe_NgtIY&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/kRyLe_NgtIY&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

ForeverChiefs58
06-21-2010, 02:13 PM
<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/zbQ5PTZmYiw&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/zbQ5PTZmYiw&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

go bowe
06-21-2010, 02:27 PM
The problem is that their religion doesn't tell them it is wrong for anyone with representation to the prophet to lie or kill, too bad that little part isn't as forbidden.

<object height="385" width="480">


<embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/tj6bx0X1EPI&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" height="385" width="480"></object>

<object height="385" width="480">


<embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/NJ_Kh8ecoxk&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" height="385" width="480"></object>

<object height="385" width="480">


<embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/kRyLe_NgtIY&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" height="385" width="480"></object>the first video appears to be the small staged demonstration referred to in the wiki except...

there are certainly no crowds visible in the video which was all shot at close range (pardon the pun), not showing a wider view of quiet streets...

the second video is of some idiot radical cleric preaching hate to "dozens" of attendees...

hardly representative of massive outpourings of support, and again the pna condemned the attacks...

to be clear, i am discussing palestinian "celebrations" only, not demonstrations in other countries (which were usually the exception rather than rule)...

i would think slag could give us a much better idea of what actually transpired...

the third video is disturbing, but even terrorists have children that are raised on extremist principles...

that doesn't mean that all palestinian children want to be martyrs...

i'm just suggesting that the palestinian "celebrations" weren't necessarily representative of muslim sentiment world wide, and certainly not of the majority of palestinians...

ClevelandBronco
06-21-2010, 03:01 PM
SLAG is a good guy, but I wouldn't mistake him for a disinterested reporter of facts when it comes to this subject.

ForeverChiefs58
06-21-2010, 03:03 PM
More palestinian children want to be martyrs than don't you can bet that. They talk about it on TV, radio, books, magazines, and teachers teach about it everyday in all their schools.

You are either ignorant/uninformed to the truth, or are a typical propaganda BS liar. I am more informed than slag I can tell you this much as I use to actually live there and I am not palestinian or jewish so I can give a very fair unbiased representation to the truth and living conditions as only a 3rd party could after living with both people.
I am very fair to everyone and have never thought that there is any state that doesn't have a right to exist.

ClevelandBronco
06-21-2010, 03:09 PM
More palestinian children want to be martyrs than don't you can bet that. They talk about it on TV, radio, books, magazines, and teachers teach about it everyday in all their schools.

You are either ignorant/uninformed to the truth, or are a typical propaganda BS liar. I am more informed than slag I can tell you this much as I use to actually live there and I am not palestinian or jewish so I can give a very fair unbiased representation to the truth and living conditions as only a 3rd party could after living with both people.
I am very fair to everyone and have never thought that there is any state that doesn't have a right to exist.

Where do you suggest that the Lakota should erect a militarized fence to keep us out?

ForeverChiefs58
06-21-2010, 03:11 PM
Where do you suggest that the Lakota should erect a militarized fence to keep us out?

I am not talking about anything that happened centuries ago. I am talking about countries right now, not long time ago, in a far, far away land.

Direckshun
06-22-2010, 08:05 PM
What you do is work with the moderates to an agreement...then get the to squeeze the extremists out.
That an a few other confidential techniques I have.

You need a moderate population that matters, first.

Direckshun
06-22-2010, 08:07 PM
Guess what? If you are against the creation of isreal, you are anti semetic you realize this right? I can't be against the birth of africa and obsess and bitch about it like I can change it, and still not be a racist asshole douchbag.
You support groups like hamas. They are not sworn to peace, a palastinian state, or helping anyone, but to isreals destruction. If they could take their focus off of hating, they could make progress, but you can't make deals with someone who has hitler type ideas and dreams, not peace. A people who cheer and celebrate on 9-11 as thousands die because we are an ally to their enemy. They can burn a flag and picture of our president, but if someone so much as draws a f%$ picture of muhammad as a terrorist they riot and kill all over the world. They would elect al-queda, and osama bin laden as their president if they could.

So why not kill them all, FC?

Direckshun
06-22-2010, 08:09 PM
The problem is that their religion doesn't tell them it is wrong for anyone with representation to the prophet to lie or kill, too bad that little part isn't as forbidden.

The Koran actually does say killing is bad. While also condoning tons of killing in the name of Allah.

I betcha I can find a similar monotheistic religion that does the same, very quickly...

Direckshun
06-22-2010, 08:11 PM
SLAG is a good guy, but I wouldn't mistake him for a disinterested reporter of facts when it comes to this subject.

I don't think really anybody qualifies to be a disinterested reporter of facts when it comes to Israel.

Direckshun
06-22-2010, 08:12 PM
More palestinian children want to be martyrs than don't you can bet that. They talk about it on TV, radio, books, magazines, and teachers teach about it everyday in all their schools.

You are either ignorant/uninformed to the truth, or are a typical propaganda BS liar. I am more informed than slag I can tell you this much as I use to actually live there and I am not palestinian or jewish so I can give a very fair unbiased representation to the truth and living conditions as only a 3rd party could after living with both people.
I am very fair to everyone and have never thought that there is any state that doesn't have a right to exist.

So why not kill them all, FC?

vailpass
06-22-2010, 08:19 PM
Where do you suggest that the Lakota should erect a militarized fence to keep us out?

Anywhere they fucking think they can.

Duck Dog
06-22-2010, 09:11 PM
Is going to take a while.

No duh statement of the day, I'm sure.

Here are some horrific anti-semitic images (http://www.tomgrossmedia.com/mideastdispatches/archives/001118.html) printed in editorial cartoons in the Middle East. Check them out, they're stunning.

If there's a way to douse these flames of extreme religious hatred, I'd like to hear them.

You can start by not supporting them.

GoHuge
06-22-2010, 11:29 PM
These people have hated each other since the beginning of time. Throw in religious extremist and you've doubled down on stupid. There are injustices against people involved on both sides from illegal Israeli settlements and inprisonment of palestinian people to innocent Israeli citizens being targeted by terrorists. This issue will die as quickly as racism has in the world and throughout world history........meaning never. People involved on both sides, but especially muslims have been indoctrinated with ideologies of hatred and intolerance. Groups like Al Qaeda will never be satisfied with anything less than the total destruction of Israel. One group or both will have to be wiped from existence for there to ever be peace. Extremist will never allow moderates to come to an amicable solution.

SLAG
06-23-2010, 01:03 AM
Guess what? If you are against the creation of isreal, you are anti semetic you realize this right? I can't be against the birth of africa and obsess and bitch about it like I can change it, and still not be a racist asshole douchbag.
You support groups like hamas. They are not sworn to peace, a palastinian state, or helping anyone, but to isreals destruction. If they could take their focus off of hating, they could make progress, but you can't make deals with someone who has hitler type ideas and dreams, not peace. A people who cheer and celebrate on 9-11 as thousands die because we are an ally to their enemy. They can burn a flag and picture of our president, but if someone so much as draws a f%$ picture of muhammad as a terrorist they riot and kill all over the world. They would elect al-queda, and osama bin laden as their president if they could.

shit man
I'm an American - Small town Kansas Boy
My Blood ain't my choice - but I can see as well as anyone that the Palestinians seems to have gotten the jagged side of this double edge sword that is this ancient conflict

I am done with this conversation - any more banter at here would be like me throwing a rock at someone pointing a gun at me just because of my heritage... i'll just mind my own business in my own country

ForeverChiefs58
06-23-2010, 06:11 AM
shit man
I'm an American - Small town Kansas Boy
My Blood ain't my choice - but I can see as well as anyone that the Palestinians seems to have gotten the jagged side of this double edge sword that is this ancient conflict

I am done with this conversation - any more banter at here would be like me throwing a rock at someone pointing a gun at me just because of my heritage... i'll just mind my own business in my own country


You know I have NEVER understood throwing a rock at anyone who has a gun; if it is pointed in their direction then they are in a hurry to become a martyr. If the black 17 yr old that got punched by a cop picks up a rock and throws it at the officer she would have gotten shot. you see how that works? If there are no suicied bombers there wouldn't be so many check points and blast walls. If there is no kidnapping of soldier and terrorist gov. elected there is no blockade. If there are no rockets fired, and anyone with a problem turned to a non violent way, there would be peace. Do you see how that works?

Direckshun
06-23-2010, 08:42 AM
Answer my question, FC.

Why not kill them all?

mlyonsd
06-23-2010, 09:02 AM
You know I have NEVER understood throwing a rock at anyone who has a gun; if it is pointed in their direction then they are in a hurry to become a martyr. If the black 17 yr old that got punched by a cop picks up a rock and throws it at the officer she would have gotten shot. you see how that works? If there are no suicied bombers there wouldn't be so many check points and blast walls. If there is no kidnapping of soldier and terrorist gov. elected there is no blockade. If there are no rockets fired, and anyone with a problem turned to a non violent way, there would be peace. Do you see how that works?

I actually knew a rock throwing Palestinian. His family sent him and his brother to the states to live with their uncle in St. Louis before they were killed by the Israelis.

We talked about it a bit and he said as a kid you couldn't help grow up hating Israel because that's the way you were raised. I remember him likening it to Santa Claus. He told me every kid in the US growing up loves Santa Claus because it was implanted into you. Same way with them and the Israeli's.

Anyway, him and his brother were abrubtly sent over here at high school age. Got off the plane and couldn't speak a lick of English.

Both worked their way through school and graduated from Louisville.

One of the nicest guys I'll ever know.

BucEyedPea
06-23-2010, 09:43 AM
Guess what? If you are against the creation of isreal, you are anti semetic you realize this right?
Propaganda by redefinition of words, crazy logic and reeks of the political correctness from the right. The counter part to this thinking is the racist charge by the left that if you disagree with a political point of view or policy of a black leader.

Anti-semitisim means being hostile toward or prejudiced against Jews because of Judaism or ethnicity believing one is superior or better than them. That existed in Europe long before Israel was even created. Israel is a political entity. It just happens to be established by the UN for the sake of Jewish people having their own nation. It resulted in a conflict—one that in the opinion of many is understandable whether they support a two state solution or none.

People can discuss the merits or demerits on the complications of returning to land where they lived 2000 years ago ( with Arabs at times even) without resorting to charges of anti-semitism. The anti-semetism in the ME today still doesn't match what it was at times in Europe when it had no good reason than for who they were, their beliefs and customs.

The anti-semitism charge is nothing but a ploy shut down debate and differing opinions. A lot of people know it too.

I can't be against the birth of africa and obsess and bitch about it like I can change it, and still not be a racist asshole douchbag.
The counterpart would be if Mexicans wanted a portion of the American Southwest back for themselves. Immigrating back to it and then going to the UN when needing official world recognition.

Using Africa is not equivalent.

You support groups like hamas. They are not sworn to peace, a palastinian state, or helping anyone, but to isreals destruction. If they could take their focus off of hating, they could make progress, but you can't make deals with someone who has hitler type ideas and dreams, not peace. A people who cheer and celebrate on 9-11 as thousands die because we are an ally to their enemy. They can burn a flag and picture of our president, but if someone so much as draws a f%$ picture of muhammad as a terrorist they riot and kill all over the world. They would elect al-queda, and osama bin laden as their president if they could.

It's a war. Both sides are taking part in it.

vailpass
06-23-2010, 09:59 AM
shit man
I'm an American - Small town Kansas Boy
My Blood ain't my choice - but I can see as well as anyone that the Palestinians seems to have gotten the jagged side of this double edge sword that is this ancient conflict

I am done with this conversation - any more banter at here would be like me throwing a rock at someone pointing a gun at me just because of my heritage... i'll just mind my own business in my own country

Interesting choice of words.

ForeverChiefs58
06-23-2010, 10:03 AM
Answer my question, FC.

Why not kill them all?


Same reason we didn't kill all the german people.

ForeverChiefs58
06-23-2010, 10:10 AM
I actually knew a rock throwing Palestinian. His family sent him and his brother to the states to live with their uncle in St. Louis before they were killed by the Israelis.

We talked about it a bit and he said as a kid you couldn't help grow up hating Israel because that's the way you were raised. I remember him likening it to Santa Claus. He told me every kid in the US growing up loves Santa Claus because it was implanted into you. Same way with them and the Israeli's.

Anyway, him and his brother were abrubtly sent over here at high school age. Got off the plane and couldn't speak a lick of English.

Both worked their way through school and graduated from Louisville.

One of the nicest guys I'll ever know.

Unless you are a jew or friends with jews, right? People who grow up learning to hate usually end up always having hate for something.

BucEyedPea
06-23-2010, 10:38 AM
Unless you are a jew or friends with jews, right? People who grow up learning to hate usually end up always having hate for something.

That includes you. Obviously you hate a certain side as well. How 'bout not hating either side but seeing either side had been capable of doing wrong at times.

ForeverChiefs58
06-23-2010, 10:44 AM
Propaganda by redefinition of words, crazy logic and reeks of the political correctness from the right. The counter part to this thinking is the racist charge by the left that if you disagree with a political point of view or policy of a black leader.

Anti-semitisim means being hostile toward or prejudiced against Jews because of Judaism or ethnicity believing one is superior or better than them. That existed in Europe long before Israel was even created. Israel is a political entity. It just happens to be established by the UN for the sake of Jewish people having their own nation. It resulted in a conflict—one that in the opinion of many is understandable whether they support a two state solution or none.

People can discuss the merits or demerits on the complications of returning to land where they lived 2000 years ago ( with Arabs at times even) without resorting to charges of anti-semitism. The anti-semetism in the ME today still doesn't match what it was at times in Europe when it had no good reason than for who they were, their beliefs and customs.

The anti-semitism charge is nothing but a ploy shut down debate and differing opinions. A lot of people know it too.


The counterpart would be if Mexicans wanted a portion of the American Southwest back for themselves. Immigrating back to it and then going to the UN when needing official world recognition.

Using Africa is not equivalent.



It's a war. Both sides are taking part in it.

Its a war alright, with our closest ally fighting a terrorist gov. that is run by iran who also swears to isreals destruction, and is on the verge of war with the US, so pick a fucking side!

I have never met anyone who was against the creation of isreal and wasn't racist or had an agenda against jewish people in general.
It doesn't matter why or how Isreal was created; it happened so accept it and get over it! Just like North Koreans not happy with the line the UN made, need to get over it cause it is done.
If you are against the creation of the USA, odds are your not going to be real friendly to the people who live there. Imagine if the indians started bitching that this was their land and we needed to leave or they would start a killing campaign...oh yeah, just ask sitting bull how that works out.

ForeverChiefs58
06-23-2010, 10:59 AM
That includes you. Obviously you hate a certain side as well. How 'bout not hating either side but seeing either side had been capable of doing wrong at times.


You know what? I hate ANY terrorist side period. I hate a side that wants to puposely kill a bus full of school childeren, because they are mad at a gov.
I hate a side that would purposely fly planes full of innocent people into a building full of innocent people, and laugh as they burn and die, because they are friends with someone the terrorists don't like. I am against a side that thinks it is ok to kill in the name of religion, or if someone makes a drawing, or cartoon they don't approve of.
I am on the "side" of my country. I am on the side of freedom. The human side. The good side. What side are you on?

BucEyedPea
06-23-2010, 11:09 AM
Its a war alright, with our closest ally fighting a terrorist gov. that is run by iran who also swears to isreals destruction, and is on the verge of war with the US, so pick a ****ing side!
No I won't pick a side for the simple reason that both sides have a right to that land if you go back in time and add up who was where when.

Furthermore, I will NOT pick a side because this is the classic entangling alliance we were warned about by our Founders as a means to drag us into foreign wars. I realize, we can't be totally uninvolved as we already are. But that does not make it our fight for our men to die. If Israel wants it, she'll have to fight using her men. We give it enough arms and support. In fact she has an arsenal of nukes.

I have never met anyone who was against the creation of isreal and wasn't racist or had an agenda against jewish people in general.
Really? That's unfortunate but you don't strike me like someone who travels in circles outside your own view on this issue.

I have three Jewish friends who think having a state that is Jewish is not needed. One is a conservative, one a liberal the other a socialist. So I guess that means they get the self-loathing Jew smear instead right. This is a political battle about land and boundaries stemming from the anti-semitism of Europe. It is not a religious one or an ethnic one—at all. If that does exist with some, it's a symptom and reaction to the politics.


It doesn't matter why or how Isreal was created; it happened so accept it and get over it!
That's your opinion and you are being very authoritarian by enforcing that point of view on others. This is one of the reasons there has been no solution.

As far as I am concerned, there are extremists on both sides. Work with the moderates, and then you work on squeezing out the extremists who won't die out overnight but will in time. You can't defang them otherwise....unless you want a world war. Because I assure you, we're the ones sabre rattling about Iran with the same lies as before Iraq being pushed by the same interests—AIPAC which is in Likud's camp. I joined JStreet to help those Jews who don't agree with Likud. A war with Iran will not just end with Iran. Islam is world wide. It would be a disaster.

BTW Iran's president never said he'd wipe the face of Israel off the map— that was a Farsi mistranslation that was picked up by the media and forwarded along as if it was the truth. In fact I watched his speech at the UN with the subtitles while a US announcer re-interpreted it and he changed what he said even there. It's nothing but war propaganda being pushed by the NeoCons in the US and their counterparts in Israel the Likud party.

As far as NK goes, the UN is the CAUSE of too much war on this earth eventhough it's mission was to end war. Time to end the UN.

BucEyedPea
06-23-2010, 11:14 AM
You know what? I hate ANY terrorist side period. I hate a side that wants to puposely kill a bus full of school childeren, because they are mad at a gov.
Yes but war has increasingly targeted civilians since the two WWs. This is guerrilla war (of those with no army ) and cannot be fought with conventional war tactics. This is why working with the moderates to squeeze out the extremists is the only way. It can be done. Send me over there.

You should read the works of conservative Robert Pape on the true cause of terrorism. It is occupation of land. It's not just a tactic against Israel. The Tamil Tigers use it in Sri Lanka. Something tells me you don't hate them let alone care.

ForeverChiefs58
06-23-2010, 12:51 PM
No I won't pick a side for the simple reason that both sides have a right to that land if you go back in time and add up who was where when.

Furthermore, I will NOT pick a side because this is the classic entangling alliance we were warned about by our Founders as a means to drag us into foreign wars. I realize, we can't be totally uninvolved as we already are. But that does not make it our fight for our men to die. If Israel wants it, she'll have to fight using her men. We give it enough arms and support. In fact she has an arsenal of nukes.


Really? That's unfortunate but you don't strike me like someone who travels in circles outside your own view on this issue.

I have three Jewish friends who think having a state that is Jewish is not needed. One is a conservative, one a liberal the other a socialist. So I guess that means they get the self-loathing Jew smear instead right. This is a political battle about land and boundaries stemming from the anti-semitism of Europe. It is not a religious one or an ethnic one—at all. If that does exist with some, it's a symptom and reaction to the politics.



That's your opinion and you are being very authoritarian by enforcing that point of view on others. This is one of the reasons there has been no solution.

As far as I am concerned, there are extremists on both sides. Work with the moderates, and then you work on squeezing out the extremists who won't die out overnight but will in time. You can't defang them otherwise....unless you want a world war. Because I assure you, we're the ones sabre rattling about Iran with the same lies as before Iraq being pushed by the same interests—AIPAC which is in Likud's camp. I joined JStreet to help those Jews who don't agree with Likud. A war with Iran will not just end with Iran. Islam is world wide. It would be a disaster.

BTW Iran's president never said he'd wipe the face of Israel off the map— that was a Farsi mistranslation that was picked up by the media and forwarded along as if it was the truth. In fact I watched his speech at the UN with the subtitles while a US announcer re-interpreted it and he changed what he said even there. It's nothing but war propaganda being pushed by the NeoCons in the US and their counterparts in Israel the Likud party.

As far as NK goes, the UN is the CAUSE of too much war on this earth eventhough it's mission was to end war. Time to end the UN.

Wow. If you REALLY feel that way, then you really should leave the county now. You are on occupied land taken from the indians, you can't possibly feel right about that. Do you really think they wanted all of us here? Here is reality, the USA is here where it is and there is nothing anyone can do about it.
I hope you don't have to go to the middle east as you would probably be killed for having the conversations and education you enjoy. The people you stand up for kill women who try and get an education or don't cover themselves, or are seen in public with non related men, or if they have a drink of alcohol, or are gay, or have sex etc etc.

You say it has nothing to do with religion, then say a war with iran is a war with islam. It is everything to do with religion. I don't really have to explain it anymore, you either get it or don't. Are you a holocost denier also?

Freedom always comes with a price, it is never free. There will always be militants who want to fight freedom and try to kill those who enjoy it, or kill those who disagree with their idiology. That is never a side I would try to speak for, and I don't really give a crap the "logic" some sociopath has in trying to justify it. The USA will always send our soldiers who are willing to die to fight and protect freedom for our country and our allies, wheather you agree or disagree that is our promise that we proudly stand behind.
Isreal is a sovern nation, that is there to stay. That is not an authoritarian position or opinion, but a fact and there is nothing you or anyone else can do about it. No amount of killing innocent people will change that.

BucEyedPea
06-23-2010, 01:01 PM
Wow. If you REALLY feel that way, then you really should leave the county now. You are on occupied land taken from the indians, you can't possibly feel right about that. Do you really think they wanted all of us here? Here is reality, the USA is here where it is and there is nothing anyone can do about it.
I hope you don't have to go to the middle east as you would probably be killed for having the conversations and education you enjoy. The people you stand up for kill women who try and get an education or don't cover themselves, or are seen in public with non related men, or if they have a drink of alcohol, or are gay, or have sex etc etc.

You say it has nothing to do with religion, then say a war with iran is a war with islam. It is everything to do with religion. I don't really have to explain it anymore, you either get it or don't. Are you a holocost denier also?

Freedom always comes with a price, it is never free. There will always be militants who want to fight freedom and try to kill those who enjoy it, or kill those who disagree with their idiology. That is never a side I would try to speak for, and I don't really give a crap the "logic" some sociopath has in trying to justify it. The USA will always send our soldiers who are willing to die to fight and protect freedom for our country and our allies, wheather you agree or disagree that is our promise that we proudly stand behind.
Isreal is a sovern nation, that is there to stay. That is not an authoritarian position or opinion, but a fact and there is nothing you or anyone else can do about it. No amount of killing innocent people will change that.

Yup, just another NeoCon ranting about more war, even when it has nothing to do with freedom let alone ours with the predictable ending of "leave the country" when an American won't fight for a foreign country. I have a better idea, YOU should leave the country since you do not advocate Americanism.

ForeverChiefs58
06-23-2010, 01:30 PM
Yup, just another NeoCon ranting about more war, even when it has nothing to do with freedom let alone ours with the predictable ending of "leave the country" when an American won't fight for a foreign country. I have a better idea, YOU should leave the country since you do not advocate Americanism.


Huh, you are really wierd. Are you a holocaust denier? Do you support terrorism? Do you support Hamas or Hezbulla? Please answer.

Do you get that we founded this country after we took it from the indians and there is nothing you can do about it?
Do you get that Isreal is a sovern nation that isn't going anywhere either?

ForeverChiefs58
06-23-2010, 01:50 PM
Yup, just another NeoCon ranting about more war, even when it has nothing to do with freedom let alone ours with the predictable ending of "leave the country" when an American won't fight for a foreign country. I have a better idea, YOU should leave the country since you do not advocate Americanism.

Oh no, you don't know your history. Study up and get back to the convo.
Sometimes, you have to fight on a foreign shore to protect freedom.

9-11 brought their fight to us. This is not for a foreign country. My entire history of my family is not/has not been over fighting for a foreign country. They are fighting for our country, our freedom. Even for you. You didn't find this country. You didn't write the laws. You do enjoy the freedom we have that other countries don't, yet you are unwilling to fight for those freedoms, but have no problem standing up for terrorists.

You can't handle the truth! Son, we live in a world that has walls. And those walls have to be guarded by men with guns. Who's gonna do it? You? You, BucEyedPea? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for Direckshun and Orange and you curse the Marines. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know: that Denise's death, while tragic, probably saved lives. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives...You don't want the truth. Because deep down, in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that wall. You need me on that wall.
We use words like honor, code, loyalty...we use these words as the backbone to a life spent defending something. You use 'em as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a chiefsplanet poster who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom I provide, then questions the manner in which I provide it! I'd rather you just said thank you and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon and stand a post. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you're entitled to!
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ForeverChiefs58
06-23-2010, 03:13 PM
You can start by not supporting them.

this times a goggle

BucEyedPea
06-23-2010, 03:36 PM
Huh, you are really wierd. Are you a holocaust denier? Do you support terrorism? Do you support Hamas or Hezbulla? Please answer.

Do you get that we founded this country after we took it from the indians and there is nothing you can do about it?
Do you get that Isreal is a sovern nation that isn't going anywhere either?

More looney tunes using binary 2 valued logic. If you're for working with the moderates, knowing there are those on both sides that want all the land to themselves in Palestine, it means you're a holocaust denier. That's some strawman you're working up. I see you've run out of arguments except for name calling.

Go back and read what I actually posted for the answers to your question. Or check the search using my handle.

Have a good day. I've learned you can't argue with a NeoCon they just regurgitate the same talking points. And I do know my history probably better than you since I researched after 9/11 and taught a course in ME studies. You just want the msm pov which omits too much. I think you're the one that can't confront the truth. That flaw speaks loudly in accusation.

You might google " A Clean Break" too.

See ya' later warmonger.

ForeverChiefs58
06-23-2010, 03:54 PM
More looney tunes using binary 2 valued logic. If you're for working with the moderates, knowing there are those on both sides that want all the land to themselves in Palestine, it means you're a holocaust denier. That's some strawman you're working up. I see you've run out of arguments except for name calling.

Go back and read what I actually posted for the answers to your question. Or check the search using my handle.

Have a good day. I've learned you can't argue with a NeoCon they just regurgitate the same talking points. And I do know my history probably better than you since I researched after 9/11 and taught a course in ME studies. You just want the msm pov which omits too much. I think you're the one that can't confront the truth. That flaw speaks loudly in accusation.

You might google " A Clean Break" too.

See ya' later warmonger.


A holocaust denier is someone who denies the facts of history because they are so ignorant of the truth. So, do you deny there was a holocaust that killed 6 million jews? Just wondering since you side with the terrorist dictator in iran on other issues. Do you support Hamas or Hezbulla?

BucEyedPea
06-23-2010, 04:07 PM
Blah Blah Blah Keep projecting.

ForeverChiefs58
06-23-2010, 04:21 PM
Blah Blah Blah Keep projecting.

Why won't you answer?? Bet I know why.

ForeverChiefs58
06-23-2010, 04:28 PM
This is the problem. Letting someone who supports terrorist enemies of the USA and all their propaganda teach anyone. You should NOT be a teacher period. Your head is so far up your own ass I don't know how you could see the classroom, let alone the chaulkboard. You remind me of this guy I use to work with who use to go on about how Seinfeld was the head of the zionist jews running hollywood.

ForeverChiefs58
06-23-2010, 04:32 PM
Do you support Hamas or Hezbulla? Do you deny the holocaust and death of 6 million jews? answer the question! I can handle the truth, can you?

ForeverChiefs58
06-23-2010, 05:24 PM
Speaker David Horowitz during the Q & A portion of a lecture he gave at UC San diego was confronted by BucEyedPea from the crowd. In her opening the student mentions the annual Hitler Youth Week where they parade around campus in Muslim garb with a God Bless Hitler sign. When asked if she would condemn Hamas, an organization denounced by the United States, Canada, the European Union, Japan and Isreal as a terrorist organization, she is unable to condemn it. Finally when asked if she is for or against Hezbollah a paramilitary organization that has been condemned as a terrorist organization by most Western nations and even some Arab nations, and whose leader has said he wants to exterminate the Jewish people, she admits she is for it.
The fact you teach anything should be a crime!
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BucEyedPea
06-23-2010, 05:38 PM
OMG Horowitz is a leading NeoConservative.

BucEyedPea
06-23-2010, 05:40 PM
Why won't you answer?? Bet I know why.

You're questions are the typical two-valued logic bate of a NeoCon warmonger.
Presenting false dichotomies. It's also a strawman because you got nuthin'.
You can check my archive for this conservative Republican's views. I've already done this before. No need to rinse and repeat.

ForeverChiefs58
06-23-2010, 05:42 PM
OMG Horowitz is a leading NeoConservative.

Like OMG I can't believe anyone hired you to teach!
Don't know the speaker, he wasn't the point. Why don't you answer? Is it because you are a terrorist supporting traitor to this country?

BucEyedPea
06-23-2010, 05:42 PM
Did you say something?

VAChief
06-23-2010, 05:49 PM
Unless you are a jew or friends with jews, right? People who grow up learning to hate usually end up always having hate for something.

I guess we could discern how you were raised then?

ForeverChiefs58
06-23-2010, 05:50 PM
Did you say something?


You know what we do with traitors don't ya? Someone get a rope!

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ForeverChiefs58
06-23-2010, 06:00 PM
I guess we could discern how you were raised then?

I'm sorry, where did I ever say I hate anyone besides terrorists? That is the way I was raised. Every male in the history of my family has served to protect this country, several were proud war heros. If you are for them then I know where you stand and the hate you have for this country and the principles they were founded on. Now get back in your line of people with their head up their own ass right behind your hero Ahmadinejad.

ForeverChiefs58
06-23-2010, 06:11 PM
BTW Iran's president never said he'd wipe the face of Israel off the map— that was a Farsi mistranslation that was picked up by the media and forwarded along as if it was the truth. In fact I watched his speech at the UN with the subtitles while a US announcer re-interpreted it and he changed what he said even there. It's nothing but war propaganda being pushed by the NeoCons in the US and their counterparts in Israel the Likud party.

YOU ARE AN IDIOT ANTI SEMITIC

Iran: President Says Israel Should Be 'Wiped Off Map'
October 27, 2005
By Golnaz Esfandiari


President Ahmadinejad speaking at the conference in Tehran (Fars)

Iranian President Mahmud Ahmadinejad's call for Israel to be "wiped off the map" has triggered a sharp international response and widespread condemnation. Ahmadinejad made the comments yesterday at a conference in Tehran entitled "The World without Zionism." Following the remarks, Israel said it considers Iran "a clear and present danger" and Washington said the comments highlight U.S. concerns about Iran's nuclear activities. Several countries, including Great Britain, France, and Spain said they would summon their Iranian envoys to demand an explanation.



Prague, 27 October 2005 (RFE/RL) -- Iran’s President Mahmud Ahmadinejad yesterday cited comments by Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini, the founder of the Islamic revolution, when he declared, "As the imam said, Israel must be wiped off the map."



Ahmadinejad told an audience of 3,000 students that there was "no doubt the new wave [of attacks] in Palestine will soon wipe off this disgraceful blot from the face of the Islamic world."



The remarks were immediately condemned by a number of countries including Israel, which said that Iran should be expelled from the United Nations.



Israeli Foreign Ministry spokesman Mark Regev said in reaction to the remarks that Iran represents a danger for Israel. "Today, Israelis saw two extreme examples of violent language, where leaders in the Muslim world called for the destruction of Israel," he said. "Both the Iranian president and the leader of Hamas, al-Zahar, talked openly about destroying Israel. It is not surprising that there are people out there who take this extreme language, this violent language, and transform it into violent actions."



The United States also expressed concern over Ahmadinejad’s remarks. U.S. State Department spokesman Sean McCormack said last night in Washington: "I think you are starting to see, through some of these remarks, some of the true views and intentions of this [Iranian] regime, and I think that it only serves to underscore our concern, as well as the international communities concern, about Iran's pursuit of nuclear weapons."



There were also condemnation by a number of European countries, including Great Britain, which described the comments as "sickening," and Germany, which said the remarks are "unacceptable".



Anti-Israel comments are regularly made by hard-line Iranian officials during official events and regime rallies. They are usually aimed at their supporters inside the country. Ahmadinejad made his comments at a conference held in preparation for an anti-Israel demonstration, which is held every year on the last Friday of the holy month of Ramadan.



Mehdi Mozafari, a professor of international relations at Arhus University in Denmark, told RFE/RL that Ahmadinejad was eyeing his supporters, but he was also trying to justify the Islamic Republic’s nuclear ambitions. "He is trying to create a new enemy, which is actually an old enemy, but he is putting emphasis on that so that Iran’s attempts to attain nuclear arms are justified," he said. "Right now, Iran is not being threatened by any country, and regimes that threatened Iran like the regime of Saddam Hussein have been destroyed. So [Iranian officials] are forced to create a new enemy and say that it represents a serious threat to Iran."



Some observers believe yesterday's comments by President Ahmadinejad could signal a change in Iran’s foreign policy.



During the eight-year term of President Mohammad Khatami, the Islamic Republic followed a policy of detente and Khatami used every opportunity to promote his idea of "dialogue among civilizations".



President Ahmadinejad had harsh words for Islamic countries that might recognize Israel. "Anybody who takes a step toward Israel will burn in the fire of the Islamic nation’s fury," he said.



Israel currently has diplomatic relations with several Muslim-majority countries, including Jordan, Egypt, Mauritania, and Turkey. Qatar has had low-level diplomatic contacts with Israel, as has Pakistan.



Mozafari said Ahmadinejad’s comments demonstrate Iran’s concern over developments in the region. "This is an attempt to create a new crisis for the survival of Iran’s regime, and maybe it also shows the anxiety of Iranian officials in face of new developments such as the fact that Syria is being caught for the first time, Lebanon is separating itself from Syria and Iran, Pakistan is on its way to recognize Israel, and this is not good news for a regime that has always been engaged in brinkmanship and crisis," he said. "Therefore, Mr. Ahmadinejad is launching a new call to the youth that we need to return to the essence of the revolution and to our leader."



Mozafari believes that in the coming days the international condemnation of Ahmadinejad's call for Israel to be wiped out will intensify.



Dr. Sadegh Zibakalam, a professor of political science at Tehran University, said Ahmadinejad's comments put Iran in a difficult position on the international scene. "In my view, whatever the views and feeling of Ahmadinejad are about Israel and Palestine, he should not forget that he speaks as an official of the Islamic Republic. He speaks as the president of Iran and when he says very clearly that Israel should be eradicated, a country that has been accepted by the UN. This is against all international principles and agreements and it is not in line with rational and acceptable behavior that is expected by the heads of countries. On the one hand we say why is the world so sensitive about our nuclear program, on the other hand if we want the international community to respect us then we also have to follow some international norms and principles," Zibakalam said.



The "Financial Times" today reported that European diplomats suggested the comments would not derail efforts by France, Britain, and Germany to get Iran to return to the negotiating table and halt work at its uranium-conversion facility in Isfahan.





Iranian leader denies Holocaust

Ahmadinejad's remarks echo other recent statements
Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has courted further controversy by explicitly calling the Nazi Holocaust of European Jewry a "myth".
"They have created a myth today that they call the massacre of Jews and they consider it a principle above God, religions and the prophets," he said.

On live TV, he called for Europe or North America - even Alaska - to host a Jewish state, not the Middle East.

Israel swiftly denounced the president's comments.
"We hope these extremist comments... will make the international community open its eyes and abandon any illusions about this regime," foreign ministry spokesman Mark Regev told AFP news agency.

Mr Ahmadinejad's latest declaration echoes comments he made last week, in which he said territory should be "provided" in Germany or Austria to establish Israel "if European countries claim that they have killed Jews in World War II".

The president sparked international outrage in October when he said Israel should be "wiped off the map".

'Europe's fault'

Speaking to thousands of people in the south-eastern city of Zahedan, Mr Ahmadinejad brushed aside criticism of his views, saying it was orchestrated by supporters of Israel.

"If someone were to deny the existence of God... or prophets and religion, they would not bother him.

"However, if someone were to deny the myth of the Jews' massacre, all the Zionist mouthpieces and the governments subservient to the Zionists tear their larynxes and scream against the person as much as they can," he said.

He returned to his earlier theme that Europe should shoulder the responsibility for a Jewish state.

"If you [Europeans] committed this big crime, then why should the oppressed Palestinian nation pay the price?

"This is our proposal: give a part of your own land in Europe, the US, Canada or Alaska to them so that the Jews can establish their country," he said.


HAVE YOUR SAY
The Iranian president's comments are extremely concerning - and I worry they are also calculated

G Wilson, London


Send us your comments
Since his election in June 2005, Mr Ahmadinejad has taken a more hardline stance towards Israel in public than his predecessors, and has recently stepped up his anti-Israel rhetoric.
Israel's spokesman said the Iranian president's latest remarks reflected a "perverse vision of the world held by this regime".

BBC Tehran correspondent Frances Harrison says the Iranian press has endorsed the president's views, calling them logical and less passive than the approach of previous Iranian governments.

Condemnation

The foreign minister of Germany criticised Mr Ahmadinejad's remarks as "shocking and unacceptable" and warned they could influence negotiations with Iran over its nuclear programme.

"I cannot hide the fact that this weighs on bilateral relations and on the chances for the negotiation process," Frank-Walter Steinmeier said.

German officials are scheduled to meet their Iranian counterparts on 21 December for the next round of talks over Iran's nuclear ambitions.

Talks between Tehran and three European Union nations - Germany, France and the UK - have been deadlocked over Iran's renewed efforts to produce nuclear fuel.

The EU renewed its condemnation of Mr Ahmadinejad's position, saying it had no place in civilised political debate.

VAChief
06-23-2010, 06:12 PM
I'm sorry, where did I ever say I hate anyone besides terrorists? That is the way I was raised. Every male in the history of my family has served to protect this country, several were proud war heros. If you are for them then I know where you stand and the hate you have for this country and the principles they were founded on. Now get back in your line of people with their head up their own ass right behind your hero Ahmadinejad.

You might want to stop reinforcing the observation.

ForeverChiefs58
06-23-2010, 06:45 PM
You might want to stop reinforcing the observation.

You might want to stop reinforcing the observation of being an anti sematic terrorist supporting traitor fucking asshole.

ForeverChiefs58
06-23-2010, 10:43 PM
awesome
You can't handle the truth! Son, we live in a world that has walls. And those walls have to be guarded by men with guns. Who's gonna do it? You? You, BucEyedPea? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for Direckshun and Orange and you curse the Marines. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know: that Denise's death, while tragic, probably saved lives. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives...You don't want the truth. Because deep down, in places you don't talk about at chiefs tailgate parties, you want me on that wall. You need me on that wall.
We use words like honor, code, loyalty...we use these words as the backbone to a life spent defending something. You use 'em as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a chiefsplanet poster who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom I provide, then questions the manner in which I provide it! I'd rather you just said thank you and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon and stand a post. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you're entitled to!
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BucEyedPea
06-23-2010, 10:46 PM
Ayup, you got nuthin' just argumentum ad hominems.

ForeverChiefs58
06-23-2010, 11:18 PM
Ayup, you got nuthin' just argumentum ad hominems.

You try to argue for a terrorist group. You make no sense. Here's to you dumbass! :clap:
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Direckshun
06-24-2010, 12:07 PM
Same reason we didn't kill all the german people.

I don't know what you mean?

Can you explain?

The Mad Crapper
06-24-2010, 12:10 PM
If you were/are curious to know what a red diaper baby is:

I don't know what you mean?

Can you explain?

Direckshun
06-24-2010, 02:08 PM
Waiting, FC.

ForeverChiefs58
06-24-2010, 02:28 PM
I don't know what you mean?

Can you explain?

Yes you do. You know exactly what I mean.
The Nazis wanted to exterminate all the jews, they taught it to their children and it was accepted everywhere.
Visit the ME, and there are overwellming simularities. Imagine if Isreal had been right next to Germany

Direckshun
06-24-2010, 02:31 PM
So your solution, since it worked so well with Germany, would be to conquer all Middle Eastern countries, divide them up into manageable subdivisions, and slowly allow them to congeal into natural nations?

ForeverChiefs58
06-24-2010, 02:48 PM
So your solution, since it worked so well with Germany,

It didn't work well? Do you see very many Nazis running around?
I would say that part of mission was accomplished well.

The Mad Crapper
06-24-2010, 02:55 PM
It didn't work well? Do you see very many Nazis running around?
I would say that part of mission was accomplished well.

Dude, you are argueing with an imbecile.

You know Reno 911, right? Think Terry from Reno 911

Direckshun
06-24-2010, 02:56 PM
It didn't work well? Do you see very many Nazis running around?
I would say that part of mission was accomplished well.

I'm saying it worked well.

Are you suggesting we do the same in the Middle East?

Conquer all Middle Eastern countries, divide them up into manageable subdivisions?

ForeverChiefs58
06-24-2010, 03:12 PM
So your solution, since it worked so well with Germany, would be to conquer all Middle Eastern countries, divide them up into manageable subdivisions, and slowly allow them to congeal into natural nations?

only if they behave themselves :clap:

The Mad Crapper
06-24-2010, 03:18 PM
It didn't work well? Do you see very many Nazis running around?
I would say that part of mission was accomplished well.

Dude, I tried to tell you--- the guy is an idiot. He's Terry from Reno 911.

Direckshun
06-24-2010, 03:27 PM
only if they behave themselves :clap:

So you're serious.

Your solution is to conquer the Middle East, and subdivide them up into manageable states.

Holy shit, buddy. That's mental.

The Mad Crapper
06-24-2010, 03:32 PM
So you're serious.

Your solution is to conquer the Middle East, and subdivide them up into manageable states.

Holy shit, buddy. That's mental.

Hi Terry.

ForeverChiefs58
06-24-2010, 03:43 PM
So you're serious.

Your solution is to conquer the Middle East, and subdivide them up into manageable states.

Holy shit, buddy. That's mental.

Yea, thats it. Besides, you couldn't go in to subdivide just like that. It would take years for the radiation levels to go down. Not to mention all the glass.

Direckshun
06-24-2010, 03:50 PM
Yea, thats it. Besides, you couldn't go in to subdivide just like that. It would take years for the radiation levels to go down. Not to mention all the glass.

You are being purposefully evasive about what solutions you'd seek in Israel.

Why?

I'll ask again: what solutions would you seek in Israel, if not simply ethnically cleansing it?

ForeverChiefs58
06-24-2010, 04:01 PM
You are being purposefully evasive about what solutions you'd seek in Israel.

Why?

I'll ask again: what solutions would you seek in Israel, if not simply ethnically cleansing it?

solution to the middle east? oh thats an easy one, surprised no one asked earlier. :rolleyes:
Are you suggesting another holocaust to fix it, or do you deny the holocaust even happened? Are you a holocaust denier?

Direckshun
06-24-2010, 04:01 PM
solution to the middle east? oh thats an easy one, surprised no one asked earlier. :rolleyes:
Are you suggesting another holocaust to fix it, or do you deny the holocaust happened?

I've already made my case in this thread. I'm just trying to figure out yours.

Please help. Because you seem to spend a lot of time on cause without any time on solution.

What would your ideas for solutions be?

Donger
06-24-2010, 04:09 PM
I've already made my case in this thread. I'm just trying to figure out yours.

Please help. Because you seem to spend a lot of time on cause without any time on solution.

What would your ideas for solutions be?

It seems that actually acknowledging Israel's existence and right to exist is a pretty good start. Ask Egypt.

ForeverChiefs58
06-24-2010, 04:09 PM
I've already made my case in this thread. I'm just trying to figure out yours.

Please help. Because you seem to spend a lot of time on cause without any time on solution.

What would your ideas for solutions be?

you brought up a holocaust, and I am waiting for you to answer if you believe the holocaust happened?You see its kind of hard to really talk with someone about the future, when they deny the past.

ForeverChiefs58
06-24-2010, 04:11 PM
I've already made my case in this thread. I'm just trying to figure out yours.

Please help. Because you seem to spend a lot of time on cause without any time on solution.

What would your ideas for solutions be?

Start out by forgetting all that nonsense of isreals destruction. duh :clap:

Direckshun
06-24-2010, 04:22 PM
you brought up a holocaust, and I am waiting for you to answer if you believe the holocaust happened?You see its kind of hard to really talk with someone about the future, when they deny the past.

I'm sorry, I honestly didn't think you were serious. I've literally never been asked if I deny the Holocaust.

So for the record: I am not a Holocast denier. I believe the Holocaust happened, in all its brutality and senselessness. For what it's worth I've been to the Holocaust museum and I'm square with history. It's not something I've ever doubted.

Direckshun
06-24-2010, 04:23 PM
Start out by forgetting all that nonsense of isreals destruction. duh :clap:

Okayyyyyyyy. That's a start. Not a great start ("I want an entire nation of people to believe something different!"), but it's a start.

What else.

ForeverChiefs58
06-24-2010, 04:32 PM
I'm sorry, I honestly didn't think you were serious. I've literally never been asked if I deny the Holocaust.

So for the record: I am not a Holocast denier. I believe the Holocaust happened, in all its brutality and senselessness. For what it's worth I've been to the Holocaust museum and I'm square with history. It's not something I've ever doubted.

I have just seen that denial with a lot of anti isreal stuff. Iran even had the balls to build a holocaust denial museum filled with that BS propaganda.

ForeverChiefs58
06-24-2010, 04:39 PM
Okayyyyyyyy. That's a start. Not a great start ("I want an entire nation of people to believe something different!"), but it's a start.

What else.

Try to look at this for a second. You are isreal, just for a moment. You have to negotiate security and borders with someone who's first sworn mission is your destruction? Do you see the problem with that? Without changing that minor, little motto mission statement makes it too difficult to work with someone who's sole objective in life is to kill you.

Direckshun
06-24-2010, 04:46 PM
Try to look at this for a second. You are isreal, just for a moment. You have to negotiate security and borders with someone who's first sworn mission is your destruction? Do you see the problem with that? Without changing that minor, little motto mission statement makes it too difficult to work with someone who's sole objective in life is to kill you.

Again, you keep describing causes but you aren't describing solutions.

Give me a solution. Right now it's sounding a lot like "kill them all."

Do you have any ideas, or are you just a hot air balloon?

vailpass
06-24-2010, 04:48 PM
Again, you keep describing causes but you aren't describing solutions.

Give me a solution. Right now it's sounding a lot like "kill them all."

Do you have any ideas, or are you just a hot air balloon?

So his only two options are to solve the middle east crisis or be a hot air balloon?

Direckshun
06-24-2010, 04:50 PM
So his only two options are to solve the middle east crisis or be a hot air balloon?

He doesn't have to solve it. He could use an idea or two, though. It doesn't even have to work. It could simply be something.

I'm not big on bitching about political problems without trying to form my own ideas for resolutions. Maybe others are. Maybe FC is. Guess we'll see. But that's what we call hot air.

vailpass
06-24-2010, 04:54 PM
He doesn't have to solve it. He could use an idea or two, though. It doesn't even have to work. It could simply be something.

I'm not big on bitching about political problems without trying to form my own ideas for resolutions. Maybe others are. Maybe FC is. Guess we'll see. But that's what we call hot air.

Sorry, it sounded like you were asking him to solve a problem no one on earth has been able to solve or be labeled a blowhard.

How do you evaluate the efforts to date of obama and the current administration in helping to bring peace in the middle east?

ForeverChiefs58
06-24-2010, 05:02 PM
Again, you keep describing causes but you aren't describing solutions.

Give me a solution. Right now it's sounding a lot like "kill them all."

Do you have any ideas, or are you just a hot air balloon?

Kill all of who? I am only for the killing of terrorists, people who kill innocent people on purpose even though they have nothing to do with their cause.

I told you a solution. You know about dropping all the isreal must die, kill kill kill isreali destruction mission statements. you would be surprised how far you can go with someone when they drop that their main goal in life is to kill you.
You can't have peace with someone who's goal is your death, can't be done period. I hope you get that.

Donger
06-24-2010, 05:05 PM
The only way that there will be peace for Israel is:

1) Israel is destroyed.

2) Israel's enemies are destroyed.

3) Israel and her enemies agree to co-exist.

1 and 2 are pretty unpleasant. So, it comes to 3. History has shown that Israel can co-exist with an enemy who tried to destroy her, once they acknowledged her right to exist. So, will Israel's enemies acknowledge her right to exist? Seems like that's the only workable solution.

ForeverChiefs58
06-24-2010, 05:09 PM
wonder why they can't model the egypt or jordan agreemants. ahhh thats right, they would rather have nothing than acknowledge isreal

Direckshun
06-24-2010, 05:10 PM
Sorry, it sounded like you were asking him to solve a problem no one on earth has been able to solve or be labeled a blowhard.

How do you evaluate the efforts to date of obama and the current administration in helping to bring peace in the middle east?

Well the Middle East is a geographically humongous area with about a hundred different hotspots of war/conflict/instability. You can't bring peace to it all simultaneously, you have to try to extinguish certain fires at a time and hope it all comes around someday. And in many instances, it's out of your hands -- you just have to contribute in what limited ways you can.

The five major hotspots, which doesn't include everything Obama's done but :

Iraq -- The first major drawdown under Obama, out of major cities. Otherwise, an embrace of pretty much the same counterinsurgency strategy that was used by Bush. But even as 100,000+ troops are stationed there, the country is incredibly unstable. Obama understood it was time to withdraw and let Iraq settle its own issues when he was running for President. But he's since blown past the deadline he set as the candidate for withdrawal. Unhappy.

Afghanistan/Pakistan -- Love the strategy of "huge in with a quick out," although Patreus throws that all in doubt as he'll certainly want to string this bitch out. Our efforts in Pakistan have shown the most reward of any time during the war as we've run Al Qaeda out of the country and are crunching them against the border. We still make more enemies than friends with our battle against the Taliban and we've no doubt propped up a corrupt theocrat in Karzai. Mixed, and generally pessimistic. Though I'm pleased with our progress with Pakistan.

Israel/Palestine -- Obama administration has taken the extreme blank check for Israel and made it... a slightly more moderate but still extreme blank check for Israel. Spoke very well on this subject in the Cairo speech and has largely abided by it. Have made some strides in two-state negotiations but has had that progress largely blown out of the water by Netanyahu's insistence on settlements. Incomplete, but encouraging.

Kyrgyzstan -- Has kept a hands-off approach during the Tulip revolution, and wisely. Vowed to support the new government and be less of a vehicle for corruption there. Incomplete, but encouraging.

Iran -- Handled this issue with expertise the split-second he came into office. Was willing to sit down with them until they rigged their elections. Has since gone mute and extremely hands-off to defang Iran's propaganda machine, and has worked brilliantly. But it's up to Iran at this point, as it should be. Very pleased.

Other general acts: Pushing for energy reform, huge speech delievered in Cairo, ending of "enhanced interrogation" although he covertly continues it in selected spots across the Middle East, and failed so far to close Guantanamo Bay. Mixed results.

Direckshun
06-24-2010, 05:14 PM
I told you a solution. You know about dropping all the isreal must die, kill kill kill isreali destruction mission statements. you would be surprised how far you can go with someone when they drop that their main goal in life is to kill you.
You can't have peace with someone who's goal is your death, can't be done period. I hope you get that.

Yes, yes... you've said that.

So how do you help them "drop" that "main goal"?

ForeverChiefs58
06-24-2010, 05:16 PM
Well the Middle East is a geographically humongous area with about a hundred different hotspots of war/conflict/instability. You can't bring peace to it all simultaneously, you have to try to extinguish certain fires at a time and hope it all comes around someday. And in many instances, it's out of your hands -- you just have to contribute in what limited ways you can.

The five major hotspots, which doesn't include everything Obama's done but :

Iraq -- The first major drawdown under Obama, out of major cities. Otherwise, an embrace of pretty much the same counterinsurgency strategy that was used by Bush. But even as 100,000+ troops are stationed there, the country is incredibly unstable. Obama understood it was time to withdraw and let Iraq settle its own issues when he was running for President. But he's since blown past the deadline he set as the candidate for withdrawal. Unhappy.

Afghanistan/Pakistan -- Love the strategy of "huge in with a quick out," although Patreus throws that all in doubt as he'll certainly want to string this bitch out. Our efforts in Pakistan have shown the most reward of any time during the war as we've run Al Qaeda out of the country and are crunching them against the border. We still make more enemies than friends with our battle against the Taliban and we've no doubt propped up a corrupt theocrat in Karzai. Mixed, and generally pessimistic. Though I'm pleased with our progress with Pakistan.

Israel/Palestine -- Obama administration has taken the extreme blank check for Israel and made it... a slightly more moderate but still extreme blank check for Israel. Spoke very well on this subject in the Cairo speech and has largely abided by it. Have made some strides in two-state negotiations but has had that progress largely blown out of the water by Netanyahu's insistence on settlements. Incomplete, but encouraging.

Kyrgyzstan -- Has kept a hands-off approach during the Tulip revolution, and wisely. Vowed to support the new government and be less of a vehicle for corruption there. Incomplete, but encouraging.

Iran -- Handled this issue with expertise the split-second he came into office. Was willing to sit down with them until they rigged their elections. Has since gone mute and extremely hands-off to defang Iran's propaganda machine, and has worked brilliantly. But it's up to Iran at this point, as it should be. Very pleased.

Other general acts: Pushing for energy reform, huge speech delievered in Cairo, ending of "enhanced interrogation" although he covertly continues it in selected spots across the Middle East, and failed so far to close Guantanamo Bay. Mixed results.

enjoyed your thoughts. :clap: I might not agree with you on everything, but you are so much easier to talk to than that orange guy

Direckshun
06-24-2010, 05:19 PM
enjoyed your thoughts. :clap: I might not agree with you on everything, but you are so much easier to talk to than that orange guy

'Preciate it.

Some of us do have a little more piss and vinegar than others. We're liberals.

ForeverChiefs58
06-24-2010, 05:20 PM
Yes, yes... you've said that.

So how do you help them "drop" that "main goal"?

Do what turey, egypt jordan did. Start with that then.

Have to acknowledge isreal

Direckshun
06-24-2010, 05:25 PM
Do what turey, egypt jordan did. Start with that then.

Have to acknowledge isreal

Okay, it's clear that you believe Israel should do nothing differently.

If that's the case, right or wrong, Palestine's not going to be believing anything differently.

And if Palestine refuses to come around, what do you suggest be done, then?

vailpass
06-24-2010, 05:29 PM
Well the Middle East is a geographically humongous area with about a hundred different hotspots of war/conflict/instability. You can't bring peace to it all simultaneously, you have to try to extinguish certain fires at a time and hope it all comes around someday. And in many instances, it's out of your hands -- you just have to contribute in what limited ways you can.

The five major hotspots, which doesn't include everything Obama's done but :

Iraq -- The first major drawdown under Obama, out of major cities. Otherwise, an embrace of pretty much the same counterinsurgency strategy that was used by Bush. But even as 100,000+ troops are stationed there, the country is incredibly unstable. Obama understood it was time to withdraw and let Iraq settle its own issues when he was running for President. But he's since blown past the deadline he set as the candidate for withdrawal. Unhappy.

Afghanistan/Pakistan -- Love the strategy of "huge in with a quick out," although Patreus throws that all in doubt as he'll certainly want to string this bitch out. Our efforts in Pakistan have shown the most reward of any time during the war as we've run Al Qaeda out of the country and are crunching them against the border. We still make more enemies than friends with our battle against the Taliban and we've no doubt propped up a corrupt theocrat in Karzai. Mixed, and generally pessimistic. Though I'm pleased with our progress with Pakistan.

Israel/Palestine -- Obama administration has taken the extreme blank check for Israel and made it... a slightly more moderate but still extreme blank check for Israel. Spoke very well on this subject in the Cairo speech and has largely abided by it. Have made some strides in two-state negotiations but has had that progress largely blown out of the water by Netanyahu's insistence on settlements. Incomplete, but encouraging.

Kyrgyzstan -- Has kept a hands-off approach during the Tulip revolution, and wisely. Vowed to support the new government and be less of a vehicle for corruption there. Incomplete, but encouraging.

Iran -- Handled this issue with expertise the split-second he came into office. Was willing to sit down with them until they rigged their elections. Has since gone mute and extremely hands-off to defang Iran's propaganda machine, and has worked brilliantly. But it's up to Iran at this point, as it should be. Very pleased.

Other general acts: Pushing for energy reform, huge speech delievered in Cairo, ending of "enhanced interrogation" although he covertly continues it in selected spots across the Middle East, and failed so far to close Guantanamo Bay. Mixed results.


Thanks for a cogent and well-thought out response.

ForeverChiefs58
06-24-2010, 05:43 PM
Okay, it's clear that you believe Israel should do nothing differently.

If that's the case, right or wrong, Palestine's not going to be believing anything differently.

And if Palestine refuses to come around, what do you suggest be done, then?

I think both sides should make same agreement as egypt and jordan did. But you have to do what they did and acknowledge isreal. That is something they have refused to do.

BucEyedPea
06-24-2010, 05:49 PM
I think both sides should make same agreement as egypt and jordan did. But you have to do what they did and acknowledge isreal. That is something they have refused to do.

So, in other words you actually agree with me just paraphrased. Got it! Thank you very much!
That's an example of working with the moderates to squeeze out the extremists. 'Cept those are also govts. Egypt does have a festering class of Islamic fundamentalists. The thing is there are those on both sides who want ALL the land with one side completely gone. Yes! On BOTH sides.

Direckshun
06-24-2010, 06:17 PM
I think both sides should make same agreement as egypt and jordan did. But you have to do what they did and acknowledge isreal. That is something they have refused to do.

And if this "first step" you're describing doesn't happen, if Palestine continues to refuse Israel's right to exist, what then?

ForeverChiefs58
06-24-2010, 07:31 PM
And if this "first step" you're describing doesn't happen, if Palestine continues to refuse Israel's right to exist, what then?

Then i guess the suffering poverty and hardship will continue. You should be angry the palestinian leaders wouldn't just recognize what the entire rest of the would does, that isreal is a sovergn nation and learn to live with it.

Direckshun
06-24-2010, 09:47 PM
Then i guess the suffering poverty and hardship will continue. You should be angry the palestinian leaders wouldn't just recognize what the entire rest of the would does, that isreal is a sovergn nation and learn to live with it.

It's official. You're just hot air.

You have no answers, no ideas you adhere to for solutions, no understanding of why Palestine functions and believes as it does, and of course, a vehemently simplistic hatred of the Palestinian people.

You're welcome to your (complete lack of) opinion, of course. But it will get you no where but a self-satisfied world of impotent hate.

Which makes you no better, in the intellectual arena, than many of the extremists you despise.

patteeu
06-25-2010, 07:12 AM
Again, you keep describing causes but you aren't describing solutions.

Give me a solution. Right now it's sounding a lot like "kill them all."

Do you have any ideas, or are you just a hot air balloon?

No one can describe a solution short of extermination because you can't control the thoughts and actions of the two sides or force them to accept anything short of extermination of the other side. Extermination, either of Israel or of those who wish to exterminate the Israelis is the only sure fire solution.

Since that solution isn't something we can realistically advocate, I think our position should be that the palestinians should be absorbed by the surrounding Arab countries, especially Jordan, and/or form a tiny, demilitarized state in the portion of the so-called "occupied territories" that Israel is willing to donate for the sake of peace. The palestinians don't deserve anything more than this and they shouldn't have their hopes stoked by international pressure on Israel to remain restrained. The West should collectively agree to give the palestianians a limited time to get their shit together and find peace after which any and all efforts to restrain Israel would be dropped and any actions taken by Israel to end the conflict conclusively would be supported. It won't happen, but if it did, peace would come one way or the other.

patteeu
06-25-2010, 07:20 AM
Iran -- Handled this issue with expertise the split-second he came into office. Was willing to sit down with them until they rigged their elections. Has since gone mute and extremely hands-off to defang Iran's propaganda machine, and has worked brilliantly. But it's up to Iran at this point, as it should be. Very pleased.

Iran continues to move full-steam-ahead toward a nuclear weapon. They continue to harbor al Qaeda. They continue to help our enemies kill Americans in both Iraq and Afghanistan. They're moving closer and closer to a conflict with Israel. Yeah, what's not to like?! /sarcasm

:eek:

patteeu
06-25-2010, 07:22 AM
It's official. You're just hot air.

You have no answers, no ideas you adhere to for solutions, no understanding of why Palestine functions and believes as it does, and of course, a vehemently simplistic hatred of the Palestinian people.

You're welcome to your (complete lack of) opinion, of course. But it will get you no where but a self-satisfied world of impotent hate.

Which makes you no better, in the intellectual arena, than many of the extremists you despise.

What's your solution, Direckshun? Or are you just a hot air balloon?

stevieray
06-25-2010, 07:26 AM
What's your solution, Direckshun?

daffodils

BucEyedPea
06-25-2010, 07:34 AM
It's official. You're just hot air.

You have no answers, no ideas you adhere to for solutions, no understanding of why Palestine functions and believes as it does, and of course, a vehemently simplistic hatred of the Palestinian people.
That makes him an anti-semite too. Palestinians are a semitic people too.

You're welcome to your (complete lack of) opinion, of course. But it will get you no where but a self-satisfied world of impotent hate.

Which makes you no better, in the intellectual arena, than many of the extremists you despise.

Ayup!

The Mad Crapper
06-25-2010, 07:49 AM
I was a fan of Ho Chi Mihn when Ho Chi Mihn wasn't cool.

http://www.lumbeetribe.com/images/Pete_Seeger.jpg

ForeverChiefs58
06-25-2010, 08:03 AM
It's official. You're just hot air.

You have no answers, no ideas you adhere to for solutions, no understanding of why Palestine functions and believes as it does, and of course, a vehemently simplistic hatred of the Palestinian people.
You're welcome to your (complete lack of) opinion, of course. But it will get you no where but a self-satisfied world of impotent hate.

Which makes you no better, in the intellectual arena, than many of the extremists you despise.

WTH is wrong with you? I said I hate terrorist, so you lump ALL the palestinians in that catagory. wow. You just don't agree with the solutions and the rest of the free world on isreal.

You: Tell me a solution to the middle east right now or you are full of hot
air. Afterwards, you will have a few moments to come up with a
solution to the oil spill and global warming or your full of the dreaded
hot air.

Me: Well how about acknowledging isreal?

You: Still can't think of anything, huh? Got anything else?

Me: How about not being sworn on isreals destruction.

You: I see you obviously have no suggestions, and are unable to come up
with just one simple easly breezy, lemon squeezy solution. Now you are
hot air.

Me: What about doing the same peace agreement done with other muslim
neighbor countries?

You: Would that mean actually recognizing isreal?

Me: Yeesss. But all the people would have a state.

You: What if the palestinians just didn't recognize isreal, then what?

Me: I guess there won't be peace and people will continue to suffer.

You: It is clear that you couldn't think of even one little suggestion and you
just want to exterminate brown people, are full of hatred, and are
probably under the zionist jews mind contol. They run the world ya
know with the banks and Seinfeld and stuff.

Direckshun
06-26-2010, 05:35 AM
What's your solution, Direckshun? Or are you just a hot air balloon?

I've already posted a lengthy attempt at resolution in this thread.

It's called intellectual honesty.

Direckshun
06-26-2010, 05:39 AM
WTH is wrong with you? I said I hate terrorist, so you lump ALL the palestinians in that catagory. wow. You just don't agree with the solutions and the rest of the free world on isreal.

You: Tell me a solution to the middle east right now or you are full of hot
air. Afterwards, you will have a few moments to come up with a
solution to the oil spill and global warming or your full of the dreaded
hot air.

Me: Well how about acknowledging isreal?

You: Still can't think of anything, huh? Got anything else?

Me: How about not being sworn on isreals destruction.

You: I see you obviously have no suggestions, and are unable to come up
with just one simple easly breezy, lemon squeezy solution. Now you are
hot air.

Me: What about doing the same peace agreement done with other muslim
neighbor countries?

You: Would that mean actually recognizing isreal?

Me: Yeesss. But all the people would have a state.

You: What if the palestinians just didn't recognize isreal, then what?

Me: I guess there won't be peace and people will continue to suffer.

You: It is clear that you couldn't think of even one little suggestion and you
just want to exterminate brown people, are full of hatred, and are
probably under the zionist jews mind contol. They run the world ya
know with the banks and Seinfeld and stuff.

You believe two things that are really stupid:

1. Isreal shouldn't have to change how it's acting right now re: Palestine.

2. Western society and/or Israel should conquer the Middle East and divide it up into manageable subdivisions. When, you know, we've already done that, which is part of the reason the Middle East is as unmanageable as it is.

You need to fix both of those ideas.

patteeu
06-26-2010, 06:57 AM
I've already posted a lengthy attempt at resolution in this thread.

It's called intellectual honesty.

If you're talking about post 66 where you said that what needs to happen is for Israel to stop using what you call "police state tactics" for a generation or two, I can't say that that "solution" is any more complete or realistic than ForeverChiefs58's idea that the palestinians should accept Israel's right to exist like Egypt and Jordan. Why is he officially "just hot air", but you aren't?

patteeu
06-26-2010, 07:03 AM
You believe two things that are really stupid:

1. Isreal shouldn't have to change how it's acting right now re: Palestine.

2. Western society and/or Israel should conquer the Middle East and divide it up into manageable subdivisions. When, you know, we've already done that, which is part of the reason the Middle East is as unmanageable as it is.

You need to fix both of those ideas.

Israel has changed the way it acts over and over and they've proven that they can live in peace with their Arab neighbors. The palestinians are the ones who have repeatedly shown that they can't (or don't want to) make peace. It's time for the palestinians to change the way they act.

And just for the record, I realize that it's not all palestinians who refuse to make peace, but until someone (whether it's a palestinian leader or the leaders of the allied Arab states) steps in and imposes a change in behavior, there can be no peace. It's ridiculous to even suggest that Israel can make peace happen unilaterally over the course of a couple of generations without exposing itself to extermination in the process.

ForeverChiefs58
06-26-2010, 08:42 AM
You believe two things that are really stupid:

1. Isreal shouldn't have to change how it's acting right now re: Palestine.

2. Western society and/or Israel should conquer the Middle East and divide it up into manageable subdivisions. When, you know, we've already done that, which is part of the reason the Middle East is as unmanageable as it is.

You need to fix both of those ideas.

Actually, I think it is you that needs to accept reality. I said two things HAVE to happen BEFORE anything else. You dismiss them, but thats where the problem is, refusal of very basic things that everyother nation in the entire world has already done.

1) Recognize what is already there - isreal.
2) How about this one, try this: Don't make ANYONES destruction your ultimate goal and sworn mission.

If you can't do those two simple things then you don't deseve anything.
It isn't really about what ISREAL has to do, isreal is already a sovern nation. What you need to get through your head is it is up to no one but the palestinians to achieve their goal of one also.
Palestinians want a state. Isreal just wants peace like they have already established with other muslim countries not run by iran.
The worlds problems are not caused by jews as you think, but by terrorists who NEVER EVER want peace only death and destruction.

Bwana
06-26-2010, 08:46 AM
Peace in Israel

http://img2.timeinc.net/ew/dynamic/imgs/060713/133310__tattoo_l.jpg

Bill Parcells
06-26-2010, 09:47 AM
Peace in Israel

http://img2.timeinc.net/ew/dynamic/imgs/060713/133310__tattoo_l.jpg

ROFL

ForeverChiefs58
06-26-2010, 09:57 AM
Hey look, your favorite show is on tv:

http://bokertov.typepad.com/btb/images/2007/05/30/no_better_blood.jpg

ForeverChiefs58
06-26-2010, 10:02 AM
Are these friends of yours?

http://faithfreedom.org/Gallery/baby_terrorist2.jpg
http://faithfreedom.org/Gallery/suicide_bomber.jpg
http://faithfreedom.org/Gallery/suicidekid.jpg
http://faithfreedom.org/Gallery/hamas.jpg
http://faithfreedom.org/Gallery/new03.8.jpg
http://faithfreedom.org/Gallery/new03.11.jpg
http://faithfreedom.org/Gallery/suicidebomber.jpg

ForeverChiefs58
06-26-2010, 10:17 AM
Are these friends of yours?

http://e-biscuit.com/images/uploads/IslamoBaby_thumb.jpg
http://faithfreedom.org/Gallery/baby_terrorist2.jpg
http://faithfreedom.org/Gallery/suicide_bomber.jpg
http://faithfreedom.org/Gallery/suicidekid.jpg
http://faithfreedom.org/Gallery/hamas.jpg
http://faithfreedom.org/Gallery/new03.8.jpg
http://faithfreedom.org/Gallery/new03.11.jpg
http://faithfreedom.org/Gallery/suicidebomber.jpg
http://iranpoliticsclub.net/islam/images/Child%20bombers%203.jpeg
http://iranpoliticsclub.net/islam/images/Child%20Bombers%201.jpeg
http://iranpoliticsclub.net/islam/images/Child%20bombers%202.jpeg
http://iranpoliticsclub.net/islam/images/Baby%20Bombers%201.jpeg
http://iranpoliticsclub.net/islam/images/Baby%20Bombers%204.jpeg
http://iranpoliticsclub.net/islam/images/Baby%20bomber%20Hamas.jpeg
http://iranpoliticsclub.net/islam/images/Baby%20Bombers%205.jpeg Child with suicide belt, posing with a gun. Picture of former suicide bombers in his Hamas head band.

Anyone that does this shit to children needs to be exterminated. Period no excuses. Can't believe anyone would want harm to their own child.

You say isreal is the one that needs to change? Accept some damn responsibility for once and try making a change for yourselves. You do that and things will work out, but until you just TRY peace, nothing will change.

Direckshun
06-26-2010, 10:36 AM
Actually, I think it is you that needs to accept reality. I said two things HAVE to happen BEFORE anything else. You dismiss them, but thats where the problem is, refusal of very basic things that everyother nation in the entire world has already done.

1) Recognize what is already there - isreal.
2) How about this one, try this: Don't make ANYONES destruction your ultimate goal and sworn mission.

If you can't do those two simple things then you don't deseve anything.
It isn't really about what ISREAL has to do, isreal is already a sovern nation. What you need to get through your head is it is up to no one but the palestinians to achieve their goal of one also.
Palestinians want a state. Isreal just wants peace like they have already established with other muslim countries not run by iran.
The worlds problems are not caused by jews as you think, but by terrorists who NEVER EVER want peace only death and destruction.

Thing is -- those things don't really have to happen before anything else.

Palestine is extreme right now, and it's not because of any sworn allegiance to destroy Israel. There are extremists who believe it, sure. But those extremists are never going to change. Nothing you do will be successful in stopping terrorism. Period.

And overly-aggressive police states that make entire parts of your country a glorified shanty-town only make the terrorism and extremism worse. Because your extremists are never going to want to recognize Israel, and they'll always want to kill their enemies. Much like extremists of every religion.

What you need to do is (1.) facilitate the rehabilitation of moderate Palestinians, and (2.) pull Palestine out of poverty by facilitating an economy there. If you do that, hardliners and extremists will lose their credibility, and they'll have a shallower pool with which to recruit for future terrorists.

Israel has made both (1.) and (2.) worse. Their illegal settlements, and domination of humanitarian aid, and their reduction of Gaza into a gigantic, starving shanty town, has destroyed moderation in Palestine for a generation. Isreal also allows for virtually zero economy in Palestine, putting them in irreconcilable poverty. And no aid, no half-hearted generosity, will ever be enough to stop that.

You're not going to get anywhere expecting Palestine's radicalism to go away on its own. But that's exactly what you want to happen, with absolutely no Plan B if it doesn't.

That's short sighted.

Direckshun
06-26-2010, 10:38 AM
Hey look, your favorite show is on tv:

Are these friends of yours?

k

Direckshun
06-26-2010, 10:42 AM
By the way --

You believe two things that are really stupid:

1. Isreal shouldn't have to change how it's acting right now re: Palestine.

2. Western society and/or Israel should conquer the Middle East and divide it up into manageable subdivisions. When, you know, we've already done that, which is part of the reason the Middle East is as unmanageable as it is.

Tell me that I'm wrong on either (1.) or (2.) here. Tell me I'm incorrect.

ForeverChiefs58
06-26-2010, 05:15 PM
Thing is -- those things don't really have to happen before anything else.

Palestine is extreme right now, and it's not because of any sworn allegiance to destroy Israel. There are extremists who believe it, sure. But those extremists are never going to change. Nothing you do will be successful in stopping terrorism. Period.

And overly-aggressive police states that make entire parts of your country a glorified shanty-town only make the terrorism and extremism worse. Because your extremists are never going to want to recognize Israel, and they'll always want to kill their enemies. Much like extremists of every religion.

What you need to do is (1.) facilitate the rehabilitation of moderate Palestinians, and (2.) pull Palestine out of poverty by facilitating an economy there. If you do that, hardliners and extremists will lose their credibility, and they'll have a shallower pool with which to recruit for future terrorists.

Israel has made both (1.) and (2.) worse. Their illegal settlements, and domination of humanitarian aid, and their reduction of Gaza into a gigantic, starving shanty town, has destroyed moderation in Palestine for a generation. Isreal also allows for virtually zero economy in Palestine, putting them in irreconcilable poverty. And no aid, no half-hearted generosity, will ever be enough to stop that.

You're not going to get anywhere expecting Palestine's radicalism to go away on its own. But that's exactly what you want to happen, with absolutely no Plan B if it doesn't.

That's short sighted.

I would rather be short sighted than blind my friend. Again you are blaming all the problems on someone else and NOT taking responsibility for ANYTHING.
I 100% agree with both of your (1.) facilitate the rehabilitation of moderate Palestinians, and (2.) pull Palestine out of poverty by facilitating an economy there. I just disagree who's job it is to do that. As a fair minded and simplistic reasoning person, I cannot understand why someone would think that would be the job of someone else? Again, take responsibility and don't wait for someone else to come along and do something, do it yourself.
I HATE the Gaza blockade. I think it sucks and is awful. But I also know the reason it is there.
It pisses me off that I can't bring any liquids on a plane, and all the airline security, but I get the reason why. Some dumbass terrorist caused that too.
If the palestinians want a better life then people have to stand up and actually blame the terrorists, and stop supporting the idiots launching rockets and suicide bombers.

You don't think having a terrorist gov whos only sworn goal is isreals destruction is that big of a peace block huh? No biggie there. Can you imagine what would happen to mexico or canada if they announced their plans to take the US for themselves, and the obliteration or nullification of the USA, or launching daily rocket attacks, and kidnapping and killing of marines??

The palestinians caused it, they are the only ones that decided to have a gov that is known all over the world as a terrorist org., launch rockets every f%$# day at innocent people, and go and kidnap an isreali solder. Those are the only reasons for the blockade. isreal isn't the reason its there, Hamas and hezbullshita are the only causes of these problems, and only because iran is behind them.

If jordan did that shit the same thing would happen with them, but don't you see, THEY DON"T DO THAT SHIT, thats why peace works there, and that's really what you should be focusing on.
There is poverty everywhere, all over the world. Way worse than Gaza. Places where they can't afford guns, bullets, and bombs. Quit giving terrorism excuses. Time to grow up, put on your big boy pants and take some responsibility for your own actions.

patteeu
06-26-2010, 06:20 PM
The first step for bringing peace to Israel and it's neighbors is for people like Direckshun to stop providing a payoff for terrorist attacks by the way they rush to blame Israeli "police state" actions for the anger/frustration of the palestinians.

The Mad Crapper
06-29-2010, 01:18 AM
I've already posted a lengthy attempt at resolution in this thread.

It's called intellectual honesty.

ROFL

go bowe
06-29-2010, 08:51 PM
The first step for bringing peace to Israel and it's neighbors is for people like Direckshun to stop providing a payoff for terrorist attacks by the way they rush to blame Israeli "police state" actions for the anger/frustration of the palestinians.aren't the police state actions fueling the cycle of anger/hatred/violence?

it might not go away if the police state vanished...

but it won't go away if the police state continues as is...

go bowe
06-29-2010, 08:52 PM
ROFLwhat's funny about intellectual honesty?

er, never mind...

patteeu
06-29-2010, 08:58 PM
aren't the police state actions fueling the cycle of anger/hatred/violence?

it might not go away if the police state vanished...

but it won't go away if the police state continues as is...

What police state? Israel completely withdrew from Gaza and the rocket attacks surged. It was only then that they instituted the blockade with the cooperation of the Egyptians.

go bowe
06-29-2010, 09:16 PM
What police state? Israel completely withdrew from Gaza and the rocket attacks surged. It was only then that they instituted the blockade with the cooperation of the Egyptians.i guess i was thinking more of the west bank in terms of "police state"...

have there been rocket attacks from the west bank? maybe the israelis should try a unilateral withdrawal from most of the west bank, it might work out better (what with no hamas running the show)...

who knows, but imo they've got to keep trying different approaches again and again if they ever hope to achieve the kind of peace they have with egypt...

go bowe
06-29-2010, 09:19 PM
What police state? Israel completely withdrew from Gaza and the rocket attacks surged. It was only then that they instituted the blockade with the cooperation of the Egyptians.as for gaza, i agree that unilateral withdrawal escalated the rocket attacks but hamas is a different animal than fatah...

i think they should work with fatah and the plo and work out a seperate peace with the west bank and let gaza fester until something else can be figured out...

patteeu
06-30-2010, 06:28 AM
as for gaza, i agree that unilateral withdrawal escalated the rocket attacks but hamas is a different animal than fatah...

i think they should work with fatah and the plo and work out a seperate peace with the west bank and let gaza fester until something else can be figured out...

Maybe. But Fatah was at least technically in charge of Gaza when the Israelis pulled out. I suppose that in practical terms, Hamas had the upper hand there though, even before they won the elections a few months later.

As for the west bank, I don't really think it's fair to characterize it as a police state. The Israelis have gone a long way toward allowing the palestinians autonomy there even if the Israelis remain as the ultimate authority. As long as the palestinians aren't sending suicide bombers or rockets into Israel, the Israelis are willing to let them manage their own affairs (and they've demonstrated a willingness to live side by side in a two state situation as long as they can be confident in their own security).

go bowe
06-30-2010, 12:18 PM
Maybe. But Fatah was at least technically in charge of Gaza when the Israelis pulled out. I suppose that in practical terms, Hamas had the upper hand there though, even before they won the elections a few months later.

As for the west bank, I don't really think it's fair to characterize it as a police state. The Israelis have gone a long way toward allowing the palestinians autonomy there even if the Israelis remain as the ultimate authority. As long as the palestinians aren't sending suicide bombers or rockets into Israel, the Israelis are willing to let them manage their own affairs (and they've demonstrated a willingness to live side by side in a two state situation as long as they can be confident in their own security).police state may be a little overstated (hey, i've been reading penchief for years)...

while the plo manages its own affairs, the very restricted travel and difficulties in maintaining employment within israel etc. contributes to the appalling poverty in the west bank and fuels the hatred, perpetuating the cycle of hate and violence...

israel may be living side by side with the west bank, which is encouraging, but the palestinians are not really living and certainly don't have a state of their own or much hope for one at this point...

i just think the israelis should consider moving forward with the idea of pursuring a separate peace with the plo or other elected representatives of the west bank...

nothing else has really worked so far, why not give it a try? at least explore the possibilities in a serious way with the west bank...

patteeu
06-30-2010, 01:54 PM
police state may be a little overstated (hey, i've been reading penchief for years)...

while the plo manages its own affairs, the very restricted travel and difficulties in maintaining employment within israel etc. contributes to the appalling poverty in the west bank and fuels the hatred, perpetuating the cycle of hate and violence...

israel may be living side by side with the west bank, which is encouraging, but the palestinians are not really living and certainly don't have a state of their own or much hope for one at this point...

i just think the israelis should consider moving forward with the idea of pursuring a separate peace with the plo or other elected representatives of the west bank...

nothing else has really worked so far, why not give it a try? at least explore the possibilities in a serious way with the west bank...

I think your idea is a good starting point, but I think the Israelis have already tried it and would continue to be open to it except for some practical problems. First, the palestinian people selected Hamas to represent them. Second, Fatah doesn't seem capable of restraining the more radical elements of their society even with security aid from Israel and the US. Unfortunately, to lie down with Fatah and treat them like presumed lambs is to lie down with the Hamas/Islamic Jihad/Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade/etc. Allowing a peace-loving moderate completely unrestricted travel means allowing the same to the next suicide bomber. IMO, greater freedom/autonomy has to be concurrent with a greater ability of the palestinians to police their own.

ForeverChiefs58
06-30-2010, 02:44 PM
I think your idea is a good starting point, but I think the Israelis have already tried it and would continue to be open to it except for some practical problems. First, the palestinian people selected Hamas to represent them. Second, Fatah doesn't seem capable of restraining the more radical elements of their society even with security aid from Israel and the US. Unfortunately, to lie down with Fatah and treat them like presumed lambs is to lie down with the Hamas/Islamic Jihad/Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade/etc. Allowing a peace-loving moderate completely unrestricted travel means allowing the same to the next suicide bomber. IMO, greater freedom/autonomy has to be concurrent with a greater ability of the palestinians to police their own.

Well put. I agree:clap:

ForeverChiefs58
06-30-2010, 02:55 PM
police state may be a little overstated (hey, i've been reading penchief for years)...

while the plo manages its own affairs, the very restricted travel and difficulties in maintaining employment within israel etc. contributes to the appalling poverty in the west bank and fuels the hatred, perpetuating the cycle of hate and violence...

israel may be living side by side with the west bank, which is encouraging, but the palestinians are not really living and certainly don't have a state of their own or much hope for one at this point...

i just think the israelis should consider moving forward with the idea of pursuring a separate peace with the plo or other elected representatives of the west bank...

nothing else has really worked so far, why not give it a try? at least explore the possibilities in a serious way with the west bank...

I really like this idea a lot. Isreal needs to show the rest of the palestinians that terrorism is not the way to go, and give them a reason to abandon that hamas thinking by boasting fatah, and by giving them more reward than hamas could.
The key is the palestinian people police themselves more and punish criminal terrorism to show isreal they won't allow it. then isreal doesn't have a reason to police them, and there can be real peace. Sounds great. So, how do we get it started?