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View Full Version : Nat'l Security Obama will Challenge Arizona. Another reason to distrust him


HonestChieffan
06-18-2010, 02:53 PM
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20008171-503544.html

petegz28
06-18-2010, 03:01 PM
I find it rather amazing that Hillary announces this in another country yet Obama failed to meet his 2 week promise to get back with the Az. Gov.

thecoffeeguy
06-18-2010, 03:09 PM
Unbelievable.

State is taking measures to protect itself and this jack ass wants to undo it?

Whats next? :cuss:

Donger
06-18-2010, 03:14 PM
Excellent.

talastan
06-18-2010, 03:20 PM
Unbelievable.

State is taking measures to protect itself and this jack ass wants to undo it?

Whats next? :cuss:

I'd prefer to not find out.....:shake:

2bikemike
06-18-2010, 09:16 PM
I think it would be awsome if the Feds sue and lose. It would open the door for many states to follow suit with AZ.

Of course you would still have dumb asses who can't understand illegal is illegal and would still welcome the masses.

alnorth
06-18-2010, 09:38 PM
He isn't doing anything the last 3 administrations wouldn't have also done, and the current court precedent is basically against Arizona. The courts have held for a long time now that immigration is the sole jurisdiction of the feds, and no one else can get involved in any way without their authorization. All the "discrimination" crap won't fly here, this is a technical jurisdiction issue.

So, you may as well get used to the idea that the federal court and the appeals court will both rule against Arizona because those judges don't have much choice but to follow precedent.

My hope is that when it finally makes it to the SCOTUS in a year or two, they will decide to set new precedent and reverse.

mlyonsd
06-18-2010, 09:55 PM
This is where I'd expect the keystone cops to back down since public sentiment is against them but they do realize it's an election year and they need all the latino vote they can get.

I say good, have it out. They really can't look any more moronic on the issue.

alnorth
06-18-2010, 09:58 PM
This is where I'd expect the keystone cops to back down since public sentiment is against them but they do realize it's an election year and they need all the latino vote they can get.

I say good, have it out. They really can't look any more moronic on the issue.

For political reasons, Obama probably should have stayed out anyway because his support or opposition is irrelevant. There are plenty of plaintiffs going forward already. This fight will happen with or without him, so there's no reason for the justice dept to carry the torch. If they want to file a brief with their opinion when it reaches the SCOTUS fine, but they probably should have just sat back and watched the show.

mlyonsd
06-18-2010, 10:04 PM
For political reasons, Obama probably should have stayed out anyway because his support or opposition is irrelevant. There are plenty of plaintiffs going forward already. This fight will happen with or without him, so there's no reason for the justice dept to carry the torch. If they want to file a brief with their opinion when it reaches the SCOTUS fine, but they probably should have just sat back and watched the show.

Exactly right. They're rolling the political dice and in the long run I think it will hurt Obama.

It's one thing to call wiretapping of Americans out in the media...quite another to call out a state that is trying to protect its own citizens while pointing it out to everyone that the guy in charge isn't willing to protect them. I'm thinking they fumbled this one, especially when Hillary is the one that spilled the beans before they were ready. Like I said, keystone cops.

go bowe
06-18-2010, 10:43 PM
Exactly right. They're rolling the political dice and in the long run I think it will hurt Obama.

It's one thing to call wiretapping of Americans out in the media...quite another to call out a state that is trying to protect its own citizens while pointing it out to everyone that the guy in charge isn't willing to protect them. I'm thinking they fumbled this one, especially when Hillary is the one that spilled the beans before they were ready. Like I said, keystone cops.keystone cops, eh?

what have you got against keystone cops, anyway?

Chiefshrink
06-19-2010, 12:18 AM
This is where I'd expect the keystone cops to back down since public sentiment is against them but they do realize it's an election year and they need all the latino vote they can get.

I say good, have it out. They really can't look any more moronic on the issue.

One of 2 things is going on here.

The fact that this was released on a Thursday going into a Friday before the weekend all the way from Equador from her Thighmus herself(Hillary)

1. Either this is a trial balloon to see how the public will react and see if they can manipulate the uneducated masses and move the sentiment or

2. This is Hillary letting the cat out of the bag without Obama's permission meaning she is going against Obama's wishes which is her first signal that she sees Obama as weak and will run against him in 2012 in the primary.

I lean more towards No.1

orange
06-19-2010, 01:18 AM
One of 2 things is going on here.

The fact that this was released on a Thursday going into a Friday before the weekend all the way from Equador from her Thighmus herself(Hillary)

1. Either this is a trial balloon to see how the public will react and see if they can manipulate the uneducated masses and move the sentiment or

2. This is Hillary letting the cat out of the bag without Obama's permission meaning she is going against Obama's wishes which is her first signal that she sees Obama as weak and will run against him in 2012 in the primary.

I lean more towards No.1

You should probably stop leaning and have a seat before you fall over. HRC said it TUESDAY the 8th. It just got picked up and reported yesterday (by a conservative blogger)... because after all, who watches Equadoran TV?

pr_capone
06-19-2010, 01:33 AM
Good to hear that the Obama administration took care of all those other pressing matters like the gulf spill, wars, and unemployment and now has the time to fight the good fight in favor of illegals.

w00t!

Prez for life!
















/asshole

FAX
06-19-2010, 12:15 PM
I don't see that the DOJ has much of a choice. Immigration is a Federal matter. Things could only get worse if each State had their own, unique approach to illegal immigration ... problem is, when it comes to actual implementation of the laws ... they already do.

What a complicated/simple issue. It's a complete mess.

Ah well. I like the Gov of Arizona. I think she's a ball-buster and she's been all over this problem for a long time.

McCain said the other day that Mexico City is the numero uno city for kidnapping in the world ... numero dos? ... that would be Phoenix. Congratulations to Federal Immigration Policy!!

Arizonians deserve to be able to govern themselves in a State relatively free of the "illegals" problem. Hopefully, this head-knocking will result in some common sense approaches.

FAX

vailpass
06-19-2010, 12:36 PM
Federal attention leading to federal action leading to federal funds has been the goal of AZ since the beginning.
Even obama isn't so tone deaf as to strike down a state law by saying it is a federal responsibility then failing to provide federal support.
Is he?

mikey23545
06-19-2010, 12:55 PM
Most of these posts sound like complete bullshit. Arizona is not trying to legislate immigration policy - they're trying to enforce the federal laws already in place!

How in the hell can that be ruled unconstitutional?

FAX
06-19-2010, 03:20 PM
Most of these posts sound like complete bullshit. Arizona is not trying to legislate immigration policy - they're trying to enforce the federal laws already in place!

How in the hell can that be ruled unconstitutional?

I'm the first to admit confusion regarding the Federal immigration statutes, and I'm certainly no expert, but I thought the Arizona law went beyond current Federal regulations by allowing the police to question any person "suspected" of being an illegal alien. And, of course, it also requires all immigrants to carry their documentation with them at all times.

The part about holding employers accountable seems a little more stringent than current Federal law, as well.

If I'm mistaken, please educate me.

FAX

craneref
06-19-2010, 06:40 PM
I'm the first to admit confusion regarding the Federal immigration statutes, and I'm certainly no expert, but I thought the Arizona law went beyond current Federal regulations by allowing the police to question any person "suspected" of being an illegal alien. And, of course, it also requires all immigrants to carry their documentation with them at all times.

The part about holding employers accountable seems a little more stringent than current Federal law, as well.

If I'm mistaken, please educate me.

FAX

That is left wing misinformation. Immigrants that have not become naturalized ALWAYS have to carry their documentation and can always be questioned about their status if they can't prove it. Carrying a workers permit allows you to work in this country legally, without it you are legally not allowed to be emloyed, and employers are held accountable. My wife is a naturalized citizen, and the law has been that way since at least 1985 when she first came to this country. This is nothing more than a way to gain votes from those that can't vote, yet!!

FAX
06-19-2010, 06:47 PM
That is left wing misinformation. Immigrants that have not become naturalized ALWAYS have to carry their documentation and can always be questioned about their status if they can't prove it. Carrying a workers permit allows you to work in this country legally, without it you are legally not allowed to be emloyed, and employers are held accountable. My wife is a naturalized citizen, and the law has been that way since at least 1985 when she first came to this country. This is nothing more than a way to gain votes from those that can't vote, yet!!

Thanks, Mr. craneref. So, under current law, a police officer may detain and question any person whom he may suspect as being an illegal immigrant?

FAX

footballguy84
06-19-2010, 06:50 PM
ARIZONA... Doing the job the Feds won't do! Protecting our borders from A to Z!

alnorth
06-19-2010, 08:04 PM
Thanks, Mr. craneref. So, under current law, a police officer may detain and question any person whom he may suspect as being an illegal immigrant?

FAX

Arizona law basically mirrors federal law. Everything the Arizona law is doing for AZ cops, federal laws already has in place for federal immigration officials. That wasn't an accident, they wanted to pretty much mirror federal law to give it a decent chance of surviving constitutional challenges.

The only faint hope this law has, is for the SCOTUS to overturn precedent and say that states can enforce federal immigration law, but they can not deviate from federal law. If federal law changes, they must change too, something like that, maybe.

alnorth
06-19-2010, 08:08 PM
Most of these posts sound like complete bullshit. Arizona is not trying to legislate immigration policy - they're trying to enforce the federal laws already in place!

How in the hell can that be ruled unconstitutional?

Under current precedent, state cops do NOT have the authority to enforce federal immigration law on their own without authorization from congress and while working with federal immigration officers.

This isn't an across the board thing, states can mirror many federal laws and enforce them as state law, but there are a couple exceptions where the feds reserve the exclusive right to enforce. Two I can think of off the top of my head is the ability to print and regulate currency, and enforce immigration law.

I am hoping that SCOTUS recognizes that the feds have blatantly abdicated their duty, allowing a small number of people in border states to suffer because of lack of political will. Maybe they could proceed from there to rule that the feds have the exclusive right to make immigration law to which states must conform, but open it up to state police to help enforce.

mlyonsd
06-19-2010, 09:14 PM
keystone cops, eh?

what have you got against keystone cops, anyway?

Nothing really. They're funny the first time you see them but it seems to be the same old schtick after that.

Seriously, can you imagine these clowns in control right after 911?

go bowe
06-19-2010, 09:43 PM
Nothing really. They're funny the first time you see them but it seems to be the same old schtick after that.

Seriously, can you imagine these clowns in control right after 911?i don't know...

men sometimes rise to the challenges life presents...

Mr. Flopnuts
06-19-2010, 09:51 PM
CBS News polling has found that a majority of Americans support the Arizona law, which has spawned protests and boycotts.

Love it.

FAX
06-20-2010, 01:20 AM
Arizona law basically mirrors federal law. Everything the Arizona law is doing for AZ cops, federal laws already has in place for federal immigration officials. That wasn't an accident, they wanted to pretty much mirror federal law to give it a decent chance of surviving constitutional challenges.

The only faint hope this law has, is for the SCOTUS to overturn precedent and say that states can enforce federal immigration law, but they can not deviate from federal law. If federal law changes, they must change too, something like that, maybe.

One more time for the kids in back ...

So, under current Federal law, can Federal law enforcement personnel detain and question any person whom they suspect as being an illegal alien?

FAX

go bowe
06-20-2010, 02:37 AM
One more time for the kids in back ...

So, under current Federal law, can Federal law enforcement personnel detain and question any person whom they suspect as being an illegal alien?

FAXreasonable suspicion is enough...

[422 U.S. 873, 885] [/SIZE] of traffic on the particular road, and previous experience with alien traffic are all relevant. See Carroll v. United States, 267 U.S. 132, 159 (http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/getcase.pl?court=us&vol=267&invol=132#159)-161 (1925); United States v. Jaime-Barrios, 494 F.2d 455 (CA9), cert. denied, 417 U.S. 972 (http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/getcase.pl?navby=case&court=us&vol=417&invol=972) (1974). 10 They also may consider information about recent illegal border crossings in the area. The driver's behavior may be relevant, as erratic driving or obvious attempts to evade officers can support a reasonable suspicion. See United States v. Larios-Montes, 500 F.2d 941 (CA9 1974); Duprez v. United States, 435 F.2d 1276 (CA9 1970). Aspects of the vehicle itself may justify suspicion. For instance, officers say that certain station wagons, with large compartments for fold-down seats or spare tires, are frequently used for transporting concealed aliens. See United States v. Bugarin-Casas, 484 F.2d 853 (CA9 1973), cert. denied, 414 U.S. 1136 (http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/getcase.pl?navby=case&court=us&vol=414&invol=1136) (1974); United States v. Wright, 476 F.2d 1027 (CA5 1973). The vehicle may appear to be heavily loaded, it may have an extraordinary number of passengers, or the officers may observe persons trying to hide. See United States v. Larios-Montes, supra. The Government also points out that trained officers can recognize the characteristic appearance of persons who live in Mexico, relying on such factors as the mode of dress and haircut. Reply Brief for United States 12-13, in United States v. Ortiz, post, p. 891. In all situations the officer is entitled to assess the facts in light of his experience in detecting illegal entry and smuggling. Terry v. Ohio, 392 U.S., at 27 (http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/getcase.pl?navby=volpage&court=us&vol=392&page=27#27).
Ithese factors are considered when deciding if reasonable suspicion exists...

it's less than probable cause...

go bowe
06-20-2010, 02:41 AM
One more time for the kids in back ...

So, under current Federal law, can Federal law enforcement personnel detain and question any person whom they suspect as being an illegal alien?

FAXshort answer yes...

border patrol and immigration enforcement can indeed do just that...

orange
06-20-2010, 04:52 AM
short answer yes...

border patrol and immigration enforcement can indeed do just that...

Did you even read your own post?

"... in the border area ..."

You bolded it and everything.

headsnap
06-20-2010, 06:45 AM
Did you even read your own post?

"... in the border area ..."

You bolded it and everything.

from where I sit in KY, AZ IS the border area...

vailpass
06-20-2010, 10:30 AM
from where I sit in KY, AZ IS the border area...

Absolutely. I love the knee-jerk liberals living in middletown USA who want to tell a border state what they should do.
Clowns.

Garcia Bronco
06-21-2010, 08:22 PM
Most of these posts sound like complete bullshit. Arizona is not trying to legislate immigration policy - they're trying to enforce the federal laws already in place!

How in the hell can that be ruled unconstitutional?


If it is, and the court as already ruled that the States can, then their is a slew of laws that get dropped immediately.