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notorious
06-28-2010, 10:46 PM
I thought I had it all figured out, but out of nowhere this article kicks me in the nuts:


http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=96095009


Here is the part that had fuses popping upstairs:


"Einstein's theories posit that as one gets closer to a center of gravity, time will "slow down." So if you spend the rest of your life closer to the Earth's center of gravity on 34th Street while I spend the rest of my life at the top of the Empire State Building, time for you will tick a teeny, teeny bit more slowly than time for me."


I was under the impression that the faster an object or person travels, the more time slows down for them. If he was at the top of the Empire State building, he would be traveling faster then I would be on the ground, thus slowing time a little more for him.


I know that we are both correct, but damnit, would someone please explain in simple terms why time slows down for objects closer to the center of gravity? Is it due to the gravity center bending time/space similar to a black hole?

stevieray
06-28-2010, 10:50 PM
picture a ferris wheel..think about going around, sitting on the center hub, as opposed to outer ring.

or being in the center of a carousel on a playground as oppossed to the edge

notorious
06-28-2010, 10:57 PM
I might be on the right track.....

http://www.metaresearch.org/cosmology/gps-relativity.asp

"General Relativity (GR) predicts that clocks in a stronger gravitational field will tick at a slower rate. Special Relativity (SR) predicts that moving clocks will appear to tick slower than non-moving ones. Remarkably, these two effects cancel each other for clocks located at sea level anywhere on Earth. So if a hypothetical clock at Earth’s north or south pole is used as a reference, a clock at Earth’s equator would tick slower because of its relative speed due to Earth’s spin, but faster because of its greater distance from Earth’s center of mass due to the flattening of the Earth. Because Earth’s spin rate determines its shape, these two effects are not independent, and it is therefore not entirely coincidental that the effects exactly cancel. The cancellation is not general, however. Clocks at any altitude above sea level do tick faster than clocks at sea level; and clocks on rocket sleds do tick slower than stationary clocks."


I was thinking of Special Relativity.

notorious
06-28-2010, 11:06 PM
picture a ferris wheel..think about going around, sitting on the center hub, as opposed to outer ring.

or being in the center of a carousel on a playground as oppossed to the edge

Thanks Stevieray, but it must be too late for my brain to get clicking.


Please expand upon your example.


Why would time be slower in the center of the ferris wheel? The outside is traveling many times faster, so wouldn't time be slower on the outside?

Ebolapox
06-28-2010, 11:15 PM
there are a LOT of messed up things that happen when you consider special and general relativity. there's a reason that einstein spent the last half of his life rebelling against his own suppositions and against quantum mechanics.

Willie Lanier
06-28-2010, 11:27 PM
Thanks Stevieray, but it must be too late for my brain to get clicking.


Please expand upon your example.


Why would time be slower in the center of the ferris wheel? The outside is traveling many times faster, so wouldn't time be slower on the outside?

The center of the pendulous mechanism will always be moving faster than the outerlaying instruments.

notorious
06-28-2010, 11:35 PM
The center of the pendulous mechanism will always be moving faster than the outerlaying instruments.

But the outer lying parts are traveling a longer distance in the same amount of time, thus having to maintain a faster speed.


Does it have to do with the speed of light staying constant with the faster moving outlying instruments, yet traveling relatively slower (yet the same speed) in the center?


I apologize if it is blatanly obvious. I might be going full retard right now.

T-post Tom
06-28-2010, 11:43 PM
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Buck
06-28-2010, 11:44 PM
Should we tell him guys?

BWillie
06-28-2010, 11:47 PM
there are a LOT of messed up things that happen when you consider special and general relativity. there's a reason that einstein spent the last half of his life rebelling against his own suppositions and against quantum mechanics.

Probably just being afraid of dying.

Willie Lanier
06-28-2010, 11:53 PM
But the outer lying parts are traveling a longer distance in the same amount of time, thus having to maintain a faster speed.


Does it have to do with the speed of light staying constant with the faster moving outlying instruments, yet traveling relatively slower (yet the same speed) in the center?


I apologize if it is blatanly obvious. I might be going full retard right now.

No worries

The pieces controlling the device's movement will have to trigger faster than the pieces it moves, so the central engine of the "clock" or what have you will always be dependent on the central control system, much like the human body.

Ebolapox
06-29-2010, 12:04 AM
Probably just being afraid of dying.

not so much. have you read some of the posits and the natural conclusions and paths that his theories naturally lead to? some VERY exotic things.

T-post Tom
06-29-2010, 12:09 AM
not so much. have you read some of the posits and the natural conclusions and paths that his theories naturally lead to? some VERY exotic things.

E = mc2:

http://arteknyc.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/adriana-lima.jpg

googlegoogle
06-29-2010, 12:35 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitational_time_dilation

Willie Lanier
06-29-2010, 12:37 AM
But the outer lying parts are traveling a longer distance in the same amount of time, thus having to maintain a faster speed.


Does it have to do with the speed of light staying constant with the faster moving outlying instruments, yet traveling relatively slower (yet the same speed) in the center?


I apologize if it is blatanly obvious. I might be going full retard right now.

I also apologize if I am interpreting incorrectly. I may not be quick enough for the brilliance of chiefs planet. I just wanted to pop in and share my limited wisdom on subjects out of my field.

Saccopoo
06-29-2010, 01:18 AM
Hypothetical bullshit that, in the end, has no relevance to a singular person in terms of longevity. Genetics, diet and basic upkeep (brushing your teeth) are substantially more relative to life expectancy than some nanosecondential differences due to gravatational positioning as it relates to the Earths rotational patterns.

If it wasn't for modern health practices, most people would kick the bucket at around 40-50 years old. Just when most chicks start getting an abundance of cottage cheese on the upper thighs. Maybe we should be employing some type of Logan's Run situation just to avoid shit like that and people having far too much time on their hands to worry about three to for milliseconds of life difference because of geographical/altitude positioning.

Baby Lee
06-29-2010, 07:05 AM
Hypothetical bullshit that, in the end, has no relevance to a singular person in terms of longevity. Genetics, diet and basic upkeep (brushing your teeth) are substantially more relative to life expectancy than some nanosecondential differences due to gravatational positioning as it relates to the Earths rotational patterns.

If it wasn't for modern health practices, most people would kick the bucket at around 40-50 years old. Just when most chicks start getting an abundance of cottage cheese on the upper thighs. Maybe we should be employing some type of Logan's Run situation just to avoid shit like that and people having far too much time on their hands to worry about three to for milliseconds of life difference because of geographical/altitude positioning.

Millions of people are using technology that is critically dependent on those milliseconds as I type this.

Keeps them from taking a right into a storefront.

http://tycho.usno.navy.mil/ptti/1996/Vol%2028_16.pdf

notorious
06-29-2010, 07:15 AM
I also apologize if I am interpreting incorrectly. I may not be quick enough for the brilliance of chiefs planet. I just wanted to pop in and share my limited wisdom on subjects out of my field.

Thanks for helping. You led me to a few more questions I can ponder while working today.



It is really neat stuff, and it blows me away that a few people history figured all of this out.

notorious
06-29-2010, 07:17 AM
Millions of people are using technology that is critically dependent on those milliseconds as I type this.

Keeps them from taking a right into a storefront.

http://tycho.usno.navy.mil/ptti/1996/Vol%2028_16.pdf

Every time I shoot a GPS approach while in some not-so-good conditions I depend on those milliseconds, too.

Dave Lane
06-29-2010, 07:20 AM
It's not being close to gravity it's speed normally. However where gravity is so great that it bends space time then time will slow. Also being higher up gives the other person more speed so actually then the time issue would probably be about equal.

I thought I had it all figured out, but out of nowhere this article kicks me in the nuts:


http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=96095009


Here is the part that had fuses popping upstairs:


"Einstein's theories posit that as one gets closer to a center of gravity, time will "slow down." So if you spend the rest of your life closer to the Earth's center of gravity on 34th Street while I spend the rest of my life at the top of the Empire State Building, time for you will tick a teeny, teeny bit more slowly than time for me."


I was under the impression that the faster an object or person travels, the more time slows down for them. If he was at the top of the Empire State building, he would be traveling faster then I would be on the ground, thus slowing time a little more for him.


I know that we are both correct, but damnit, would someone please explain in simple terms why time slows down for objects closer to the center of gravity? Is it due to the gravity center bending time/space similar to a black hole?

notorious
06-29-2010, 07:22 AM
Also being higher up gives the other person more speed so actually then the time issue would probably be about equal.

You are correct: General Relativity and Special Realtivity cancel each other out at Sea Level. Pretty amazing.

loochy
06-29-2010, 07:48 AM
I thought I had it all figured out, but out of nowhere this article kicks me in the nuts:


http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=96095009


Here is the part that had fuses popping upstairs:


"Einstein's theories posit that as one gets closer to a center of gravity, time will "slow down." So if you spend the rest of your life closer to the Earth's center of gravity on 34th Street while I spend the rest of my life at the top of the Empire State Building, time for you will tick a teeny, teeny bit more slowly than time for me."


I was under the impression that the faster an object or person travels, the more time slows down for them. If he was at the top of the Empire State building, he would be traveling faster then I would be on the ground, thus slowing time a little more for him.


I know that we are both correct, but damnit, would someone please explain in simple terms why time slows down for objects closer to the center of gravity? Is it due to the gravity center bending time/space similar to a black hole?

I don't think positioning yourself differently on the Earth will matter in your time passing rate. The amount of distance covered there is tiny in comparison to the distance covered as the Earth rotates around the Sun. Also, I know that the Milky Way is rotating. So even though the Galaxy is rotating relatively slow in galactic terms, in terms of Earth we are speeding along at quite a clip. Also, who knows.....the whole universe may be moving.

(I didn't actually read the article, so if this has already been covered then F me)

Detoxing
06-29-2010, 09:39 AM
Weird. I was going to start this thread on Friday, but decided not too. And now here it is.

Some of these..(Fuck that, most of these) concepts are hard to grasp. Like Einsteins experiment:

If two lighting bolts are striking at the same exact time on two different poles, then why would one seem to strike first if you are traveling towards it? That doesn't really make sense to me.

Also, if I am traveling on the freeway at 80 MPH, and every one else is doing 55, would that mean that I am technically time traveling as it relates to everyone else? Is time slowing down for me opposed to the person doing 55? How does that work?

Basically, I think I understand the concepts, but not sure how to apply them to real world scenarios.

bevischief
06-29-2010, 09:41 AM
Should we tell him guys?

no...

Planetman
06-29-2010, 09:54 AM
Basically, I think I understand the concepts, but not sure how to apply them to real world scenarios.
It's best to just live your life in ignorance. Most of these theories boggle the normal person's mind.

There are other proven factors that, while we can undersdtand them, never really cross your mind until someone points them out to you. For example:

Everything your eye sees happened in the past. It's easy to think about that in terms of of star gazing.

Galaxy XYZ is 100 light years from Earth. (The light-year is a measure of distance, not time. It is the total distance that a beam of light, moving in a straight line, travels in one year. To obtain an idea of the size of a light-year, take the circumference of the earth (24,900 miles), lay it out in a straight line, multiply the length of the line by 7.5 (the corresponding distance is one light-second), then place 31.6 million similar lines end to end. The resulting distance is almost 6 trillion (6,000,000,000,000) miles!) Thus, it takes light 100 light years to reach our eye from that galaxy. Therefore, the light we are seeing now was emmited 100 light years ago.

That's pretty easy to wrap your brain around and no one really gives it a second thought.

Now, look at your spouce/significant other, your chid, your friend, etc. What you are seeing is in the past.

Why? Because for about every 10 feet of distance, it takes light about one billionth of a second to reach your eye. What you are seeing is what that person or thing "used to look like."

Hmmmm ....

Bowser
06-29-2010, 10:06 AM
If Galaxy XYZ is a mere 100 light years from Earth, then we are all truly fucked.

Donger
06-29-2010, 10:26 AM
Weird. I was going to start this thread on Friday, but decided not too. And now here it is.

Some of these..(**** that, most of these) concepts are hard to grasp. Like Einsteins experiment:

If two lighting bolts are striking at the same exact time on two different poles, then why would one seem to strike first if you are traveling towards it? That doesn't really make sense to me.

Also, if I am traveling on the freeway at 80 MPH, and every one else is doing 55, would that mean that I am technically time traveling as it relates to everyone else? Is time slowing down for me opposed to the person doing 55? How does that work?

Basically, I think I understand the concepts, but not sure how to apply them to real world scenarios.

We are all time traveling, whether we are driving or not.

loochy
06-29-2010, 10:29 AM
We are all time traveling, whether we are driving or not.

This. We travel forward through time at a constant rate (more or less)

Bowser
06-29-2010, 10:38 AM
This. We travel forward through time at a constant rate (more or less)But what IS time, exactly? Just the effect of gravity?

loochy
06-29-2010, 10:47 AM
But what IS time, exactly? Just the effect of gravity?


Bowser, like anyone could even know that.

http://www.moviewavs.com/0059305935/WAVS/Movies/Napoleon_Dynamite/worstvideo.wav

Hydrae
06-29-2010, 11:02 AM
Time is entropy. I have contended for years that if we had a true value for Pi, time would not exist. Without a true value for Pi, we can not accurately describe a circle mathematically. Thus, a true circle does not exist, it is actually a spiral. Since we never get back to the same point on our "circle," time exists to describe that change of position. Eventually everything collapses into chaos.



Ok, now that I have exposed one of my nuttier ideas, have fun with it guys!

Donger
06-29-2010, 11:20 AM
But what IS time, exactly? Just the effect of gravity?

Time is what keeps everything from happening at once.

Bowser
06-29-2010, 11:22 AM
Time is what keeps everything from happening at once.

I need to introduce the concept of time to the wife's side of the family. With them, it's a constant barrage of everything happening all at once.

googlegoogle
06-29-2010, 02:30 PM
don't forget the

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equivalence_principle

really how einstein thought experiments work.