PDA

View Full Version : News If this were my kid I'd kick him out on his butt after...


warpaint*
07-08-2010, 11:36 AM
...turning down a $40,000/yr job. This article is supposed to make me feel sorry for him I know, but for some reason the only thing I feel compelled to do is kick his ass. $40k is chicken scratch in Boston but it beats the unemployment line.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/07/business/economy/07generation.html?_r=1

American Dream Is Elusive for New Generation

By LOUIS UCHITELLE
Published: July 6, 2010

GRAFTON, Mass. — After breakfast, his parents left for their jobs, and Scott Nicholson, alone in the house in this comfortable suburb west of Boston, went to his laptop in the living room. He had placed it on a small table that his mother had used for a vase of flowers until her unemployed son found himself reluctantly stuck at home.

The daily routine seldom varied. Mr. Nicholson, 24, a graduate of Colgate University, winner of a dean’s award for academic excellence, spent his mornings searching corporate Web sites for suitable job openings. When he found one, he mailed off a résumé and cover letter — four or five a week, week after week.

Over the last five months, only one job materialized. After several interviews, the Hanover Insurance Group in nearby Worcester offered to hire him as an associate claims adjuster, at $40,000 a year. But even before the formal offer, Mr. Nicholson had decided not to take the job.

Rather than waste early years in dead-end work, he reasoned, he would hold out for a corporate position that would draw on his college training and put him, as he sees it, on the bottom rungs of a career ladder.

“The conversation I’m going to have with my parents now that I’ve turned down this job is more of a concern to me than turning down the job,” he said.

He was braced for the conversation with his father in particular. While Scott Nicholson viewed the Hanover job as likely to stunt his career, David Nicholson, 57, accustomed to better times and easier mobility, viewed it as an opportunity. Once in the door, the father has insisted to his son, opportunities will present themselves — as they did in the father’s rise over 35 years to general manager of a manufacturing company.

“You maneuvered and you did not worry what the maneuvering would lead to,” the father said. “You knew it would lead to something good.”

Complicating the generational divide, Scott’s grandfather, William S. Nicholson, a World War II veteran and a retired stock broker, has watched what he described as America’s once mighty economic engine losing its pre-eminence in a global economy. The grandfather has encouraged his unemployed grandson to go abroad — to “Go West,” so to speak.

“I view what is happening to Scott with dismay,” said the grandfather, who has concluded, in part from reading The Economist, that Europe has surpassed America in offering opportunity for an ambitious young man. “We hate to think that Scott will have to leave,” the grandfather said, “but he will.”

The grandfather’s injunction startled the grandson. But as the weeks pass, Scott Nicholson, handsome as a Marine officer in a recruiting poster, has gradually realized that his career will not roll out in the Greater Boston area — or anywhere in America — with the easy inevitability that his father and grandfather recall, and that Scott thought would be his lot, too, when he finished college in 2008.

“I don’t think I fully understood the severity of the situation I had graduated into,” he said, speaking in effect for an age group — the so-called millennials, 18 to 29 — whose unemployment rate of nearly 14 percent approaches the levels of that group in the Great Depression. And then he veered into the optimism that, polls show, is persistently, perhaps perversely, characteristic of millennials today. “I am absolutely certain that my job hunt will eventually pay off,” he said.

For young adults, the prospects in the workplace, even for the college-educated, have rarely been so bleak. Apart from the 14 percent who are unemployed and seeking work, as Scott Nicholson is, 23 percent are not even seeking a job, according to data from the Bureau of Labor Statistics. The total, 37 percent, is the highest in more than three decades and a rate reminiscent of the 1930s.

The college-educated among these young adults are better off. But nearly 17 percent are either unemployed or not seeking work, a record level (although some are in graduate school). The unemployment rate for college-educated young adults, 5.5 percent, is nearly double what it was on the eve of the Great Recession, in 2007, and the highest level — by almost two percentage points — since the bureau started to keep records in 1994 for those with at least four years of college.

Yet surveys show that the majority of the nation’s millennials remain confident, as Scott Nicholson is, that they will have satisfactory careers. They have a lot going for them.

“They are better educated than previous generations and they were raised by baby boomers who lavished a lot of attention on their children,” said Andrew Kohut, the Pew Research Center’s director. That helps to explain their persistent optimism, even as they struggle to succeed.

So far, Scott Nicholson is a stranger to the triumphal stories that his father and grandfather tell of their working lives. They said it was connections more than perseverance that got them started — the father in 1976 when a friend who had just opened a factory hired him, and the grandfather in 1946 through an Army buddy whose father-in-law owned a brokerage firm in nearby Worcester and needed another stock broker.

From these accidental starts, careers unfolded and lasted. David Nicholson, now the general manager of a company that makes tools, is still in manufacturing. William Nicholson spent the next 48 years, until his retirement, as a stock broker. “Scott has got to find somebody who knows someone,” the grandfather said, “someone who can get him to the head of the line.”

While Scott has tried to make that happen, he has come under pressure from his parents to compromise: to take, if not the Hanover job, then one like it. “I am beginning to realize that refusal is going to have repercussions,” he said. “My parents are subtly pointing out that beyond room and board, they are also paying other expenses for me, like my cellphone charges and the premiums on a life insurance policy.”

Scott Nicholson also has connections, of course, but no one in his network of family and friends has been able to steer him into marketing or finance or management training or any career-oriented opening at a big corporation, his goal. The jobs are simply not there.

The Millennials’ Inheritance

The Great Depression damaged the self-confidence of the young, and that is beginning to happen now, according to pollsters, sociologists and economists. Young men in particular lost a sense of direction, Glen H. Elder Jr., a sociologist at the University of North Carolina, found in his study, “Children of the Great Depression.” In some cases they were forced into work they did not want — the issue for Scott Nicholson.

Military service in World War II, along with the G.I. Bill and a booming economy, restored well-being; by the 1970s, when Mr. Elder did his retrospective study, the hardships of the Depression were more a memory than an open sore. “They came out of the war with purpose in their lives, and by age 40 most of them were doing well,” he said, speaking of his study in a recent interview.

The outlook this time is not so clear. Starved for jobs at adequate pay, the millennials tend to seek refuge in college and in the military and to put off marriage and child-bearing. Those who are working often stay with the jobs they have rather than jump to better paying but less secure ones, as young people seeking advancement normally do. And they are increasingly willing to forgo raises, or to settle for small ones.

“They are definitely more risk-averse,” said Lisa B. Kahn, an economist at the Yale School of Management, “and more likely to fall behind.”

In a recent study, she found that those who graduated from college during the severe early ’80s recession earned up to 30 percent less in their first three years than new graduates who landed their first jobs in a strong economy. Even 15 years later, their annual pay was 8 to 10 percent less.

Many hard-pressed millennials are falling back on their parents, as Scott Nicholson has. While he has no college debt (his grandparents paid all his tuition and board) many others do, and that helps force them back home.

In 2008, the first year of the recession, the percentage of the population living in households in which at least two generations were present rose nearly a percentage point, to 16 percent, according to the Pew Research Center. The high point, 24.7 percent, came in 1940, as the Depression ended, and the low point, 12 percent, in 1980.

Striving for Independence

“Going it alone,” “earning enough to be self-supporting” — these are awkward concepts for Scott Nicholson and his friends. Of the 20 college classmates with whom he keeps up, 12 are working, but only half are in jobs they “really like.” Three are entering law school this fall after frustrating experiences in the work force, “and five are looking for work just as I am,” he said.

Like most of his classmates, Scott tries to get by on a shoestring and manages to earn enough in odd jobs to pay some expenses.

The jobs are catch as catch can. He and a friend recently put up a white wooden fence for a neighbor, embedding the posts in cement, a day’s work that brought Scott $125. He mows lawns and gardens for half a dozen clients in Grafton, some of them family friends. And he is an active volunteer firefighter.

“As frustrated as I get now, and I never intended to live at home, I’m in a good situation in a lot of ways,” Scott said. “I have very little overhead and no debt, and it is because I have no debt that I have any sort of flexibility to look for work. Otherwise, I would have to have a job, some kind of full-time job.”

That millennials as a group are optimistic is partly because many are, as Mr. Kohut put it, the children of doting baby boomers — among them David Nicholson and his wife, Susan, 56, an executive at a company that owns movie theaters.

The Nicholsons, whose combined annual income is north of $175,000, have lavished attention on their three sons. Currently that attention is directed mainly at sustaining the self-confidence of their middle son.

“No one on either side of the family has ever gone through this,” Mrs. Nicholson said, “and I guess I’m impatient. I know he is educated and has a great work ethic and wants to start contributing, and I don’t know what to do.”

Her oldest, David Jr., 26, did land a good job. Graduating from Middlebury College in 2006, he joined a Boston insurance company, specializing in reinsurance, nearly three years ago, before the recession.

“I’m fortunate to be at a company where there is some security,” he said, adding that he supports Scott in his determination to hold out for the right job. “Once you start working, you get caught up in the work and you have bills to pay, and you lose sight of what you really want,” the brother said.

He is earning $75,000 — a sum beyond Scott’s reach today, but not his expectations. “I worked hard through high school to get myself into the college I did,” Scott said, “and then I worked hard through college to graduate with the grades and degree that I did to position myself for a solid job.” (He majored in political science and minored in history.)

It was in pursuit of a solid job that Scott applied to Hanover International’s management training program. Turned down for that, he was called back to interview for the lesser position in the claims department.

“I’m sitting with the manager, and he asked me how I had gotten interested in insurance. I mentioned Dave’s job in reinsurance, and the manager’s response was, ‘Oh, that is about 15 steps above the position you are interviewing for,’ ” Scott said, his eyes widening and his voice emotional.

Scott acknowledges that he is competitive with his brothers, particularly David, more than they are with him. The youngest, Bradley, 22, has a year to go at the University of Vermont. His parents and grandparents pay his way, just as they did for his brothers in their college years.

In the Old Days

Going to college wasn’t an issue for grandfather Nicholson, or so he says. With World War II approaching, he entered the Army not long after finishing high school and, in the fighting in Italy, a battlefield commission raised him overnight from enlisted man to first lieutenant. That was “the equivalent of a college education,” as he now puts it, in an age when college on a stockbroker’s résumé “counted for something, but not a lot.”

He spent most of his career in a rising market, putting customers into stocks that paid good dividends, and growing wealthy on real estate investments made years ago, when Grafton was still semi-rural. The brokerage firm that employed him changed hands more than once, but he continued to work out of the same office in Worcester.

When his son David graduated from Babson College in 1976, manufacturing in America was in an early phase of its long decline, and Worcester was still a center for the production of sandpaper, emery stones and other abrasives.

He joined one of those companies — owned by the family of his friend — and he has stayed in manufacturing, particularly at companies that make hand tools. Early on, he and his wife bought the home in which they raised their sons, a white colonial dating from the early 1800s, like many houses on North Street, where the grandparents also live, a few doors away.

David Nicholson’s longest stretch was at the Stanley Works, and when he left, seeking promotion, a friend at the Endeavor Tool Company hired him as that company’s general manager, his present job.

In better times, Scott’s father might have given his son work at Endeavor, but the father is laying off workers, and a job in manufacturing, in Scott’s eyes, would be a defeat.

“If you talk to 20 people,” Scott said, “you’ll find only one in manufacturing and everyone else in finance or something else.”

The Plan

Scott Nicholson almost sidestepped the recession. His plan was to become a Marine Corps second lieutenant. He had spent the summer after his freshman year in “platoon leader” training. Last fall he passed the physical for officer training, and was told to report on Jan. 16.

If all had gone well, he would have emerged in 10 weeks as a second lieutenant, committed to a four-year enlistment. “I could have made a career out of the Marines,” Scott said, “and if I had come out in four years, I would have been incredibly prepared for the workplace.”

It was not to be. In early January, a Marine Corps doctor noticed that he had suffered from childhood asthma. He was washed out. “They finally told me I could reapply if I wanted to,” Scott said. “But the sheen was gone.”

So he struggles to get a foothold in the civilian work force. His brother in Boston lost his roommate, and early last month Scott moved into the empty bedroom, with his parents paying Scott’s share of the $2,000-a-month rent until the lease expires on Aug. 31.

And if Scott does not have a job by then? “I’ll do something temporary; I won’t go back home,” Scott said. “I’ll be a bartender or get work through a temp agency. I hope I don’t find myself in that position.”

Priest31kc
07-08-2010, 11:40 AM
Shit, I would take anything for 8 bucks an hour right now. Selfish, greedy bastard.

Deberg_1990
07-08-2010, 11:45 AM
Alot of people turn down jobs they feel are "below" them or their skillset.

Phobia
07-08-2010, 11:46 AM
Shit, I would take anything for 8 bucks an hour right now. Selfish, greedy bastard.

But, would you drive to Lee's Summit for it?

rockymtnchief
07-08-2010, 11:54 AM
I smell a bum with an ego.

No college debt and $40,000 isn't enough?

Use every job as a stepping stone to something better.

Priest31kc
07-08-2010, 11:59 AM
But, would you drive to Lee's Summit for it?

Well since I live in Carrollton, Lee Summit is 80 miles away, 160 round trip, I have a pretty crappy car, so no, not for 8 bucks an hour. Id probably relocate there though lol.

Phobia
07-08-2010, 12:02 PM
I smell a bum with an ego.

No college debt and $40,000 isn't enough?

Use every job as a stepping stone to something better.

Well... it's Boston. I took a job in Boston right after I left the USMC 15 years ago for $40k. It wasn't enough to live on then. Of course, I had a small family but still. What college graduate wants an adjuster job? They'll typically give those to almost anybody. I don't really blame him but I do acknowledge ego plays a part, especially on the part of a young man who expected to start making $60-75k.

Phobia
07-08-2010, 12:03 PM
Well since I live in Carrollton, Lee Summit is 80 miles away, 160 round trip, I have a pretty crappy car, so no, not for 8 bucks an hour. Id probably relocate there though lol.

Seriously though, I do have some short-term work that pays better than that if you have any construction experience. I could work you 10-14 hours a day to make the commute worthwhile. Do you have any construction experience? PM me.

kepp
07-08-2010, 12:11 PM
...turning down a $40,000/yr job. This article is supposed to make me feel sorry for him I know, but for some reason the only thing I feel compelled to do is kick his ass. $40k is chicken scratch in Boston but it beats the unemployment line.

I doubt he's ever had a real job, meaning he's probably never contributed to unemployment insurance, meaning he wouldn't be eligible to receive unemployment.

On one side I do think it's stupid to turn that down given the economy right now, but I can see his point. It's easy to work yourself into a corner and then reach a dead end.

rockymtnchief
07-08-2010, 12:15 PM
Point taken, Phobia.

But there's no reason for him to turn down a job. He can still live at the folks house and hoard the dough. He doesn't have any bills or mouths to feed.

Use it as a stepping stone to something better.

Granted, I don't know anything about being an adjuster. Sounds like it must be more grueling than digging ditches or flipping burgers.:D

Nine years ago I was layed off a $96k per year job. Four days later I took a job making $8.25 an hour working the docks at Carquest. It was money until I found something better. I didn't even hesitate when offered the job.

Phobia
07-08-2010, 12:17 PM
That simply means you have your ego in check, rmc. There's not too many 20-somethings who do - especially college graduates who won all sorts of academic awards.

loochy
07-08-2010, 12:18 PM
I doubt he's ever had a real job, meaning he's probably never contributed to unemployment insurance, meaning he wouldn't be eligible to receive unemployment.

On one side I do think it's stupid to turn that down given the economy right now, but I can see his point. It's easy to work yourself into a corner and then reach a dead end.

Yeah once you start working in a position you kind of get stuck in that field with that on your resume. If I had the convenience of having my parents to depend on, I would have turned it down too.

It all depends on how desperate he is for money and if the parents are willing to kick him out. My parents would have said "take it or GTFO," so I would have taken it.

However, did anyone notice his worthless (to the job market) degree? Political Science with a minor in History. Lame. He probably won't end up finding a job after all.

If he was really that concerned about getting a good paying job, he would have studied something other than Poli Sci with a History minor.

Brock
07-08-2010, 12:20 PM
I don't feel sorry for anyone who wastes a college education on Poli Sci. He is qualified to do absolutely nothing.

DJ's left nut
07-08-2010, 12:21 PM
Hey Jackass - you have a Bachelors from Colgate, not a PhD from Yale. Probably in some dumb****ery like Business.

You don't get a 'corporate job' in leadership with a piddling Bachelors. Hell, a Masters is only going to get you that if you're lucky.

You're in a flooded job market with little to set you apart from your peers other than a solid academic track record and a pretty serious sense of entitlement. (Though I'll let y'all in on a secret, I have 3 "Dean's awards" and they usually mean you did better than a 3.6 that semester or some bullshit like that)

Yeah, this piece is gonna get you hired. I'm sure corporate types love guys that decide that a $40K job in an incredibly down environgment is beneath them. Higher ups that busted their asses to get their love that attitude.

EDIT: Hey! Poli-Sci with a minor in History...yeah, that'll do it. Just go to law school or start teaching because your undergrad degree isn't worth shit (so says the guy with a Poli-Sci degree himself).

What a doofus.

Mile High Mania
07-08-2010, 12:27 PM
It was likely a crappy job, but ... right out of college, you have no skins on the wall in most situations. Experience is everything, so take the job and keep looking for better options. It sounds like this guy is like a lot of new graduates, they think they should get a six figure nice job for having a diploma.

I wasn't even that crazy... I worked at Dillards for 10 months after moving to Texas so I could pay the bills until I found something that was entry level sales. I think it's rare (especially now) that a new college grad with little experience can find "the job" right out of the gate.

But, if mom and dad were to kick this guy out on his own... I would imagine his thoughts change quite a bit.

warpaint*
07-08-2010, 12:33 PM
I doubt he's ever had a real job, meaning he's probably never contributed to unemployment insurance, meaning he wouldn't be eligible to receive unemployment.

On one side I do think it's stupid to turn that down given the economy right now, but I can see his point. It's easy to work yourself into a corner and then reach a dead end.

Oh I know - all I meant by it is "$40k job" > "no job", not that I literally thought he was collecting benefits.

I could see his point if he had options beyond bilking mom and dad. Reality has yet to set in - Insurance companies hire a lot of people w/ poly-sci, history, and phych degrees for those type of entry claims jobs.

How many people like their first job out of college?

blaise
07-08-2010, 12:37 PM
I think a claims adjuster would be the bottom rung on a corporate ladder. If it's an insurance company like State Farm, Allstate, Geico, etc. you can go as high and as far as your ambition and talent will take you.

warpaint*
07-08-2010, 12:42 PM
Well... it's Boston. I took a job in Boston right after I left the USMC 15 years ago for $40k. It wasn't enough to live on then. Of course, I had a small family but still. What college graduate wants an adjuster job? They'll typically give those to almost anybody. I don't really blame him but I do acknowledge ego plays a part, especially on the part of a young man who expected to start making $60-75k.

You make it sound like he'd be flipping burgers.

I guarantee I didn't "want" the first job I got out of college, but I took it as it was better than not working and worked hard at it until I found something better.

warpaint*
07-08-2010, 12:43 PM
I think a claims adjuster would be the bottom rung on a corporate ladder. If it's an insurance company like State Farm, Allstate, Geico, etc. you can go as high and as far as your ambition and talent will take you.

That is 100% correct.

Amnorix
07-08-2010, 12:43 PM
Well... it's Boston. I took a job in Boston right after I left the USMC 15 years ago for $40k. It wasn't enough to live on then. Of course, I had a small family but still. What college graduate wants an adjuster job? They'll typically give those to almost anybody. I don't really blame him but I do acknowledge ego plays a part, especially on the part of a young man who expected to start making $60-75k.

Even in Boston a single guy can squeak by on $40K. And I agree he should have taken the job.

All that said, I think he's holding out not for more pay as much as a job that he likes.

Jobs are work. They put bread on the table. Suck it up fool, it ain't the worst job ever born.

I'm fine with my job, but everyone has those days when they wish they'd done something else. And that is why I try, whenever I'm out and about and seeing someone who has just a truly shitty job doing what he needs to in order to feed himself and his family, I remind myself that i have it good. A roofer or guy paving a road on a 90+ degree day. A cop doing a detail in February, with nothing except his eyes exposed to the elements. A window washer in the city, hanging outside the 20th floor by a couple pieces of rope or whatever.

Take the job, suck it up and give me a break.

KCUnited
07-08-2010, 12:56 PM
Reality has yet to set in - Insurance companies hire a lot of people w/ poly-sci, history, and phych degrees for those type of entry claims jobs.


This. Walk around the floor at my work and ask the adjusters what kind of degree they have and its always something worthless like Polysci, Biology, Psychology, Literature, etc. No offense or homo.

FWIW, they are literally walking off the job here though due to workload. Companies are shrinking the workforce and increasing the quality standards and its just too much for some. Its shit work being someones verbal punching bag for peanuts.

Amnorix
07-08-2010, 12:59 PM
This. Walk around the floor at my work and ask the adjusters what kind of degree they have and its always something worthless like Polysci, Biology, Psychology, Literature, etc. No offense or homo.

Biology? I wouldn't think that is "worthless", though I understand that it's probably not an end-result degree unto itself. But compared to the other "soft" majors you mentioned...

FWIW, they are literally walking off the job here though due to workload. Companies are shrinking the workforce and increasing the quality standards and its just too much for some. Its shit work being someones verbal punching bag for peanuts.

Seems like all the big companies are squeezing more out of a smaller workforce, which is drivign morale down dramatically. But as there are few job choices, employees feel trapped. I hope the cycle break soon, because it really sucks that employers are using the lousy job market to basically make everyone work harder even though (in some cases) they are making strong profits.

warpaint*
07-08-2010, 01:13 PM
This. Walk around the floor at my work and ask the adjusters what kind of degree they have and its always something worthless like Polysci, Biology, Psychology, Literature, etc. No offense or homo.

FWIW, they are literally walking off the job here though due to workload. Companies are shrinking the workforce and increasing the quality standards and its just too much for some. Its shit work being someones verbal punching bag for peanuts.

There again though that is how it is when you take an entry level job esp in a down economy. The onus is on the employee to work for something better.

There are worse jobs out there that pay less.

loochy
07-08-2010, 01:14 PM
Biology? I wouldn't think that is "worthless", though I understand that it's probably not an end-result degree unto itself. But compared to the other "soft" majors you mentioned...

What he means is "worthless in the job market."

I'd call biology more of a preparatory degree. There aren't a whole lot of jobs out there for folks with only a bachelor's in biology. The good biology jobs require a master's or phd.

jiveturkey
07-08-2010, 01:15 PM
This may have already been covered but it's probably a smart move for the kid. If he took that job he would been pigeon holed into similar positions in the future. Everyone would look at his resume and see him as an insurance guy.

Short term it looks dumb.

warpaint*
07-08-2010, 01:15 PM
Biology? I wouldn't think that is "worthless", though I understand that it's probably not an end-result degree unto itself. But compared to the other "soft" majors you mentioned...



Seems like all the big companies are squeezing more out of a smaller workforce, which is drivign morale down dramatically. But as there are few job choices, employees feel trapped. I hope the cycle break soon, because it really sucks that employers are using the lousy job market to basically make everyone work harder even though (in some cases) they are making strong profits.

Nature of the beast. Eventually the economy will rebound and things will change again. 7-8 years ago those same companies were kissing those same employees' butts begging them not to leave.

loochy
07-08-2010, 01:16 PM
This may have already been covered but it's probably a smart move for the kid. If he took that job he would been pigeon holed into similar positions in the future. Everyone would look at his resume and see him as an insurance guy.

Short term it looks dumb.

Yeah, I know!

Whenever he looks for something new, he's going to get nailed with the "no applicable experience" label and pretty much he will only be able to move up in the insurance industry.

ChiTown
07-08-2010, 01:19 PM
Hey Jackass - you have a Bachelors from Colgate, not a PhD from Yale. Probably in some dumb****ery like Business.



:cuss:

warpaint*
07-08-2010, 01:21 PM
Not at all. You can get plenty of business management, finance, etc experience working for an insurance company. It's a business just like any other company. The adjuster job gets your foot in the door. From there you can go anywhere in the company. Most of them hire from that pool of employees for all of those other jobs sans some of the ultra-specialized stuff like corporate attorney, etc. All any smart college graduate should be doing is trying to get his/her foot in the door.

loochy
07-08-2010, 01:31 PM
Not at all. You can get plenty of business management, finance, etc experience working for an insurance company. It's a business just like any other company. The adjuster job gets your foot in the door. From there you can go anywhere in the company. Most of them hire from that pool of employees for all of those other jobs sans some of the ultra-specialized stuff like corporate attorney, etc. All any smart college graduate should be doing is trying to get his/her foot in the door.

Do you have personal experience with that? I know that at my company they SAY that and they lead you to believe that. You might even get an interview. But odds are if you didn't start as "so and so position" you will NOT be hired into the new job. For what it's worth, I work at a MAJOR international company that everyone here will recognize.

warpaint*
07-08-2010, 01:37 PM
Do you have personal experience with that? I know that at my company they SAY that and they lead you to believe that. You might even get an interview. But odds are if you didn't start as "so and so position" you will NOT be hired into the new job. For what it's worth, I work at a MAJOR international company that everyone here will recognize.

Yes that is how my company operates. The entry level job sucks hind teet to be sure but if you succeed you can go anywhere your talent will take you. It's just like any other company in terms of inter-office politics and what not but at the end of the day talent and more importantly performance wins out. The people complaining (at my company) about this sort of thing are virtually always the low performers if you get my drift. Everyone here would recognize my employer and half of you are probably insured w/ us.

loochy
07-08-2010, 01:40 PM
Yes that is how my company operates. The entry level job sucks hind teet to be sure but if you succeed you can go anywhere your talent will take you. It's just like any other company in terms of inter-office politics and what not but at the end of the day talent and more importantly performance wins out. The people complaining (at my company) about this sort of thing are virtually always the low performers if you get my drift. Everyone here would recognize my employer and half of you are probably insured w/ us.

Ah, well you are actually in the insurance field, so I guess I should yield to your knowledge.

Bob Dole
07-08-2010, 01:57 PM
This may have already been covered but it's probably a smart move for the kid. If he took that job he would been pigeon holed into similar positions in the future. Everyone would look at his resume and see him as an insurance guy.

Short term it looks dumb.

Yeah, because it's impossible to take the job so you have an income, and continue to search for a job more to your liking.

If he was Bob Dole's son, his "lease" would be running out 7/31/2010.

jiveturkey
07-08-2010, 02:03 PM
Yeah, because it's impossible to take the job so you have an income, and continue to search for a job more to your liking.

If he was Bob Dole's son, his "lease" would be running out 7/31/2010.That's a possibility as well.

The problem is still the fact that his resume is going to stink of insurance and it may reduce his chances of clearing the gate keeper at the company he really wants to work at.

Bob Dole
07-08-2010, 02:20 PM
That's a possibility as well.

The problem is still the fact that his resume is going to stink of insurance and it may reduce his chances of clearing the gate keeper at the company he really wants to work at.

How the hell is 1-6 months in insurance at your first job out of college going to make a resume "stink of insurance"? Do people in HR departments get brainwashed to forget that people have bills to pay, and a recent college graduate probably doesn't have a nest egg to live off of indefinitely?

jspchief
07-08-2010, 02:25 PM
He applied at that company's management training program. He didn't meet their requirements, but they offered him a foot in the door.

Sounds to me like he blew a chance.

loochy
07-08-2010, 02:27 PM
How the hell is 1-6 months in insurance at your first job out of college going to make a resume "stink of insurance"? Do people in HR departments get brainwashed to forget that people have bills to pay, and a recent college graduate probably doesn't have a nest egg to live off of indefinitely?

Actually, yes they do.

jiveturkey
07-08-2010, 02:34 PM
How the hell is 1-6 months in insurance at your first job out of college going to make a resume "stink of insurance"? Do people in HR departments get brainwashed to forget that people have bills to pay, and a recent college graduate probably doesn't have a nest egg to live off of indefinitely?Recruiters don't care that people have bills to pay. They're concern is finding the best person for the job that they have open.

For this kid it's the difference between finding a career and finding a job. It's not a completely ridiculous move.

loochy
07-08-2010, 02:42 PM
It's not a completely ridiculous move.

Especially because his parents are willing to pay while he waits.....he has the luxury.

phisherman
07-08-2010, 02:43 PM
Actually, yes they do.

to an extent, this is true. however, i do think that in this kind of economy, any opportunity to get into a reputable company, no matter what level, is a good opportunity.

loochy
07-08-2010, 02:48 PM
to an extent, this is true. however, i do think that in this kind of economy, any opportunity to get into a reputable company, no matter what level, is a good opportunity.

Oh, believe me, if I was one of his parents, I'd have said "take this job or leave." But, they didn't, so he has the luxury of cherry picking.

Brock
07-08-2010, 02:49 PM
Recruiters don't care that people have bills to pay. They're concern is finding the best person for the job that they have open.

For this kid it's the difference between finding a career and finding a job. It's not a completely ridiculous move.

What you're saying is that he's better off having no job experience than having some job experience, no matter what field it's in. That is ridiculous.

phisherman
07-08-2010, 02:50 PM
the kid's attitude does irk me just a little bit, but only because it sounds like he'll only take his dream job.

here's some news for that kid; it's called work, unless you're a really lucky person, there are always going to be duties that suck, people you don't like and bad days when you wish you did something else.

mlyonsd
07-08-2010, 02:51 PM
As someone that's done some hiring I'm more wary of a resume that has date gaps when it comes to previous employment then I am what job they are actually doing, as long as they have a reasonable explanation.

loochy
07-08-2010, 02:53 PM
As someone that's done some hiring I'm more wary of a resume that has date gaps when it comes to previous employment then I am what job they are actually doing, as long as they have a reasonable explanation.

Well yeah, you've got a point there too. The longer he waits, the harder this will get. Eventually, he'll have to work the night shift at Quick Trip.

bobbymitch
07-08-2010, 02:55 PM
So he didn't want a "dead-end" $40K job, but looks like he will settle to be a bartender or work for a temp agency??? And he even joined the Marines? Huh?

He would have been working out of the corporate location, which should give him a leg up on advancement.

It sounds like starting out at the bottom wasn't in his job plans. I know of several folks who started on the low rung and in 20 years worked their way up to senior management positions.

I think that he screwed the pooch on this one.

mikeyis4dcats.
07-08-2010, 02:56 PM
So he didn't want a "dead-end" $40K job, but looks like he will settle to be a bartender or work for a temp agency??? And he even joined the Marines? Huh?

He would have been working out of the corporate location, which should give him a leg up on advancement.

It sounds like starting out at the bottom wasn't in his job plans. I know of several folks who started on the low rung and in 20 years worked their way up to senior management positions.

I think that he screwed the pooch on this one.

I would have to agree with him for a college graduate, working up to Senior Management over 20 years is bullshit.

loochy
07-08-2010, 03:00 PM
So he didn't want a "dead-end" $40K job, but looks like he will settle to be a bartender or work for a temp agency??? And he even joined the Marines? Huh?

Actually joining the Air Force and going to OTS might not be a bad idea. He'd have a job, pretty good pay, rack up experience, and get his stuff straightened out.

Frosty
07-08-2010, 03:07 PM
When I was interviewing out of college, any work experience outside of the engineering field meant exactly squat to anyone I interviewed with, so I can kind of see his point. That said, I am not exactly sure what kind of job would be in the field of someone with a BA in Political Science? I always thought that was a degree that you got if you were eventually planning on going into law school.

Brock
07-08-2010, 03:11 PM
When I was interviewing out of college, any work experience outside of the engineering field meant exactly squat to anyone I interviewed with, so I can kind of see his point.

what would it mean if you had a gigantic blank spot on your resume instead of any kind of employment?

warpaint*
07-08-2010, 03:14 PM
That's a possibility as well.

The problem is still the fact that his resume is going to stink of insurance and it may reduce his chances of clearing the gate keeper at the company he really wants to work at.

First of all this is the height of hyperbole. In this case he has bachelor's degree in poly sci. What dream job are we talking about here? An insurance company is a business. There are actuarial jobs, marketing jobs, management jobs, I.T. jobs, H.R. jobs, etc in addition to claims jobs. He needs to get his foot in the door somewhere, be it an insurance company or otherwise. From there his performance will take him where it takes him.

It is all about options.

He graduated college in 2008. It would appear that the job he turned down is as good an option as is available to him in this current climate.

Frosty
07-08-2010, 03:14 PM
what would it mean if you had a gigantic blank spot on your resume instead of any kind of employment?

It took me 9 months to get my first job out of college and I was unemployed during that time (I stayed home and took care of my newborn son while my wife worked). I wasn't really asked about it other than talking about the job search during that time. I suppose it would be an issue if it was for several years.

MOhillbilly
07-08-2010, 03:17 PM
My dad let me screw off the summer after HS. That fall he told me i had to start paying rent. When i told him that i didnt think that was right he told me to box my shit up & that he was taking me to the poor house.
i got a job and payed rent.

warpaint*
07-08-2010, 03:17 PM
When I was interviewing out of college, any work experience outside of the engineering field meant exactly squat to anyone I interviewed with, so I can kind of see his point. That said, I am not exactly sure what kind of job would be in the field of someone with a BA in Political Science? I always thought that was a degree that you got if you were eventually planning on going into law school.

Right.

It is all about context. If he had an engineering degree, graduated last December, and wanted to do that sort of work that would be one thing.

Saul Good
07-08-2010, 04:30 PM
At least we know this kid is a super hard worker...a real go-getter. I mean, he sends out 4 or 5 resumes a week. Why, that's one every 36 hours.

Bwana
07-08-2010, 05:00 PM
Heh, I would have to agree with some of you. If it were my kid, I would give him a date to get "a job" or show him the door. What a sloth.

Pablo
07-08-2010, 05:12 PM
Fuck that dude.

I graduated last spring and couldn't find a goddamn job to save my life.

I used my BS in Econ to mow yards and cut brush for a while. I have a decent job now, and I'm still not making shit but at least I'm getting some work history.

Poli-sci degree. What a fucking tard.

Demonpenz
07-08-2010, 05:33 PM
Find your passion and do that, the money will come

The Pedestrian
07-08-2010, 09:38 PM
Before I even started reading the article, I knew it would be an Insurance Claims Adjuster. Maybe....MAYBE if you honestly don't care what you're doing all day 40 hours a week, it could be alright. On the other hand, taking that job means that you just wasted thousands of dollars and four years of your life in college.

If I had a kid take that job after getting a college education that I helped pay for, 10% of every paycheck would come back to me until it's paid off.

loochy
07-08-2010, 09:50 PM
Before I even started reading the article, I knew it would be an Insurance Claims Adjuster. Maybe....MAYBE if you honestly don't care what you're doing all day 40 hours a week, it could be alright. On the other hand, taking that job means that you just wasted thousands of dollars and four years of your life in college.

If I had a kid take that job after getting a college education that I helped pay for, 10% of every paycheck would come back to me until it's paid off.

And if you paid for a Poli Sci degree with a History minor you've already wasted thousands of dollars in the beginning...those aren't really "money degrees."

Brock
07-08-2010, 09:56 PM
And if you paid for a Poli Sci degree with a History minor you've already wasted thousands of dollars in the beginning...those aren't really "money degrees."

This. He's entering the job market with exactly the amount of consideration he deserves, given the weak degree he bilked his parents out of.

The Pedestrian
07-08-2010, 10:01 PM
And if you paid for a Poli Sci degree with a History minor you've already wasted thousands of dollars in the beginning...those aren't really "money degrees."

As with anything else, it depends on how far you want to carry the degree and whether you have a career plan in mind. A Poli Sci with History minor has a damn good chance at elections at the BA level, but at the Masters and Doctoral levels, one can become an analyst, which pays $80,000-120,000 per year. On the other hand, a BA or BS in Business Administration is pretty much jack-sh*t unless you're planning on getting the MBA.

Brock
07-08-2010, 10:04 PM
As with anything else, it depends on how far you want to carry the degree and whether you have a career plan in mind. A Poli Sci with History minor has a damn good chance at elections at the BA level, but at the Masters and Doctoral levels, one can become an analyst, which pays $80,000-120,000 per year. On the other hand, a BA or BS in Business Administration is pretty much jack-sh*t unless you're planning on getting the MBA.

What do you mean a "damn good chance at elections"?

As for the rest of it, he doesn't have an MA or a doctorate, so.....

Bearcat
07-08-2010, 10:12 PM
Yeah once you start working in a position you kind of get stuck in that field with that on your resume. If I had the convenience of having my parents to depend on, I would have turned it down too.

It all depends on how desperate he is for money and if the parents are willing to kick him out. My parents would have said "take it or GTFO," so I would have taken it.


Obviously, the guy is in a nice situation... I skimmed the article, and don't really get the point (target audience? Are we supposed to feel bad for him? Strange...), eh.

I disagree that you can get stuck in a field though... getting a job doesn't mean you have to stop looking. Hell, I'd discourage people from not knowing what's available, even if you love your job. Anyway, if he was actually under pressure to make money, even working a few months before finding something else would be worth something, and you might not even put it on your resume. It took me a few years of grunt work to get into IT, and it certainly beat mooching off my parents....

Before I even started reading the article, I knew it would be an Insurance Claims Adjuster. Maybe....MAYBE if you honestly don't care what you're doing all day 40 hours a week, it could be alright. On the other hand, taking that job means that you just wasted thousands of dollars and four years of your life in college.

If I had a kid take that job after getting a college education that I helped pay for, 10% of every paycheck would come back to me until it's paid off.

...this is awkward.

Pfft... it means you have income. You can go to back to school, keep looking for a job, keep networking, etc... all while earning a paycheck.

The Pedestrian
07-08-2010, 10:28 PM
What do you mean a "damn good chance at elections"?

As for the rest of it, he doesn't have an MA or a doctorate, so.....

When you're trained in knowing campaign trends, government, and other political science areas--granted you have developed the communication skills--winning elections is generally easier...not to mention more interesting to the person who got the major in the first place.

Beyond that, political science is widely used for polling and research, non-profit organizations, and less traditional jobs.

The Pedestrian
07-08-2010, 10:30 PM
Obviously, the guy is in a nice situation... I skimmed the article, and don't really get the point (target audience? Are we supposed to feel bad for him? Strange...), eh.

I disagree that you can get stuck in a field though... getting a job doesn't mean you have to stop looking. Hell, I'd discourage people from not knowing what's available, even if you love your job. Anyway, if he was actually under pressure to make money, even working a few months before finding something else would be worth something, and you might not even put it on your resume. It took me a few years of grunt work to get into IT, and it certainly beat mooching off my parents....



...this is awkward.

Pfft... it means you have income. You can go to back to school, keep looking for a job, keep networking, etc... all while earning a paycheck.

ROFL

I was wondering when you'd say something.

Bearcat
07-08-2010, 10:36 PM
ROFL

I was wondering when you'd say something.

And your defense?

Bearcat
07-08-2010, 10:56 PM
:shake:

Pablo
07-08-2010, 11:22 PM
When you're trained in knowing campaign trends, government, and other political science areas--granted you have developed the communication skills--winning elections is generally easier...not to mention more interesting to the person who got the major in the first place.

Beyond that, political science is widely used for polling and research, non-profit organizations, and less traditional jobs.Winning elections is generally easier when you can communicate with people and you're an effective salesman for your cause. It doesn't have shit to do with a Poli-Sci degree.

The only reason somebody should major in Poli-Sci is if they're playing on going to Law School or going into academia.

The Pedestrian
07-09-2010, 12:07 AM
Winning elections is generally easier when you can communicate with people and you're an effective salesman for your cause. It doesn't have shit to do with a Poli-Sci degree.

The only reason somebody should major in Poli-Sci is if they're playing on going to Law School or going into academia.

While I would still defend several jobs that you could get after graduating with a Poli-Sci degree, it doesn't help much for getting into law schools. Any university that gives you an analytical background and tons of reading in their political science department is going to do the same for most of their other departments, and that's what gives you a good LSAT score. It's that particular myth that keeps thousands of students going into Poli Sci programs each year strictly as a stepping stone.

The Pedestrian
07-09-2010, 12:17 AM
And your defense?

My defense would be that you're wasting a third of your day slowly getting depressed just to get home and find that you're too mentally burned out on mind-numbing crap/pencil-pushing to create a decent coverletter or resume. Whereas, on the other hand, working on networking/applying/etc for somewhere between 8 and 16 hours a day keeps him focused on the goal--and I wouldn't be the first to say that looking for a job is a full-time job in and of itself--while keeping him motivated to research other resumes/coverletters and alter his own accordingly...not to mention that the gradual starvation from forgetting to eat every now and then may cause epiphanies akin to those gained from vision quests.

Guru
07-09-2010, 12:43 AM
Shit, these days you have to have a degree to be a store manager at Family Video. You take what you can get and then try to find something better in the mean time. You don't turn down decent paying jobs for ego.

Pablo
07-09-2010, 12:50 AM
My defense would be that you're wasting a third of your day slowly getting depressed just to get home and find that you're too mentally burned out on mind-numbing crap/pencil-pushing to create a decent coverletter or resume. Whereas, on the other hand, working on networking/applying/etc for somewhere between 8 and 16 hours a day keeps him focused on the goal--and I wouldn't be the first to say that looking for a job is a full-time job in and of itself--while keeping him motivated to research other resumes/coverletters and alter his own accordingly...not to mention that the gradual starvation from forgetting to eat every now and then may cause epiphanies akin to those gained from vision quests.

This is spoken like someone who has yet to graduate school and have that true WTF moment when you realize you need a job. Any job. Dream jobs are just that right now. Dreams. Unless you're a Harvard grad or in a highly specialized field you can't afford to be picky.

And absolutely nobody spends 8-16 hours a day networking/applying.

Bearcat
07-09-2010, 01:02 AM
My defense would be that you're wasting a third of your day slowly getting depressed just to get home and find that you're too mentally burned out on mind-numbing crap/pencil-pushing to create a decent coverletter or resume. Whereas, on the other hand, working on networking/applying/etc for somewhere between 8 and 16 hours a day keeps him focused on the goal--and I wouldn't be the first to say that looking for a job is a full-time job in and of itself--while keeping him motivated to research other resumes/coverletters and alter his own accordingly...not to mention that the gradual starvation from forgetting to eat every now and then may cause epiphanies akin to those gained from vision quests.

Actually, sitting in an office & getting paid for 8 hours a day followed by a few hours of job hunting is less depressing than spending all day everyday dealing with the rejection and struggles of looking for a job. I don't think sitting at your computer 16 hours a day looking for a job is a good way to avoid being depressed.

Besides, you make it sound like a defense mechanism to avoid admitting failure (and that's what sucks about America's schools, but that's a whole new discussion). If taking a $10/hr job doesn't get someone's ass in gear, they probably don't have the motivation needed to get and keep a better job, anyway. Not that being unemployed is failure these days, but regardless of the economy, college grads will always think of it that way.... (and not being able to admit failure isn't something employers are looking for, btw).

If you get mentally burned out by a 40hr/week (or less) job, how would you deal with real stress? I get what you're saying, your brain can get mushy when you don't exercise it, but again, is it really all that worse than not having a job?

I've used the same basic resume/cover letter for 10 years and been fine... there's no 16-hour workday tweaking a resume or cover letter; it might take 15 minutes to change a few things for each job. I guess it's catchy to say looking for a job is a full time job, but there's only so much you can do, especially if you're not even looking for the jobs that are supposedly beneath you. There are only so many local companies, only so many job sites, etc.... and even if there was enough to keep someone busy, there's no way I'd be able to stay focused on it & stay motivated for that long each day. Hell, if someone had enough resources to keep busy for 40-60 hours a week just looking for jobs, they would probably send out 1000 resumes in a month, and I don't see how that much rejection wouldn't be depressing.

Bearcat
07-09-2010, 01:05 AM
This is spoken like someone who has yet to graduate school and have that true WTF moment when you realize you need a job. Any job. Dream jobs are just that right now. Dreams. Unless you're a Harvard grad or in a highly specialized field you can't afford to be picky.

And absolutely nobody spends 8-16 hours a day networking/applying.

Yeah, and he's talking to the one person he knows that not only has the opposite opinion, but the experience and perspective to back it up.

Bob Dole
07-09-2010, 02:38 AM
Shit, these days you have to have a degree to be a store manager at Family Video. You take what you can get and then try to find something better in the mean time. You don't turn down decent paying jobs for ego.

Sure you do. If you're part of a generation that's never had to experience any sort of negative consequence for your actions.

"We can't give Johnny a bad grade, because we might negatively impact his feelings of self worth. Let's create a special class, with lowered expectations, so he and others like him can get A's on their report card, too."

"What? Johnny is still struggling? Maybe he has a disability of some sort, like ADHD. Let's medicate him and make another special class with even LOWER expectations. All that REALLY matters is our school district's cumulative scores on standardized tests. We can teach to that goal an hour a day (because SURELY we can hold their attention that long), and the rest of the school day they can explore whatever subjects they find interesting."

On and on, in area after area of their lives it goes, until the kid understandably develops a sense of entitlement. Everything is adjusted to their new and unique "learning style" "Why ask a kid to get up in the morning, get dressed and go sit in a boring classroom when we can present them with all the information asynchronously over the internet. They can do their coursework whenever they want! Structure is just silly...this generation multitasks!"

Bob Dole could go on for PAGES about the ****ed up generation of people we've managed to create. If you look back at wealthy families, with some exceptions, the wealth lasts 3 generations. The first earns it, the second maintains it, and the third fritters it away. We've essentially done the same thing with an entire generation.

The Greatest Generation made huge sacrifices to make this the most powerful nation on Earth. The Boomers pretty much maintained it. Now the Millennials, so far removed from what was sacrificed to EARN the position we held, can take it all for granted as an entitlement and throw it all away.

Guru
07-09-2010, 02:45 AM
God it is sickening to see that in print. I'm glad I am not letting my kids get away with that crap.
Rep for reporting the truth though.

HC_Chief
07-09-2010, 05:33 AM
What do you mean a "damn good chance at elections"?

As for the rest of it, he doesn't have an MA or a doctorate, so.....

...and even if he did it is highly unlikely he would land an 80-120k position right out of college. Employers choose experience over diploma. The latter is nice and it proves you have the ability to finsih what you start, but it does not necessarily mean you know anything about the real world. (more often than not a fresh-grad knows jack shit about the "real world")

phisherman
07-09-2010, 05:38 AM
I'm sorry Bob Dole, but I just can't see how the Millennials are responsible for 100% of this. Which generation created the low expectations for the children currently in school? Aren't a lot of Boomers in the teaching field? I'm pretty sure there are MANY educators in their 50's and 60's, NOT wanting to reture, particularly now in such a weak economy.

Laying the blame on one generation solely is complete BS.

One might say that the "Greatest Generation" started the entitlement when they decided that their kids wouldn't have to go through the hard times of the Depression. "My kids will never have to live through that", they'd say. Then their kids, the Boomers, grew up just a little more entitled. And so on, and so on.

I have nothing but respect for our past generations, but completely exempting entire chunks of the populace for our current situation is just dumb.

Bearcat
07-09-2010, 08:02 AM
Sure you do. If you're part of a generation that's never had to experience any sort of negative consequence for your actions.

"We can't give Johnny a bad grade, because we might negatively impact his feelings of self worth. Let's create a special class, with lowered expectations, so he and others like him can get A's on their report card, too."

"What? Johnny is still struggling? Maybe he has a disability of some sort, like ADHD. Let's medicate him and make another special class with even LOWER expectations. All that REALLY matters is our school district's cumulative scores on standardized tests. We can teach to that goal an hour a day (because SURELY we can hold their attention that long), and the rest of the school day they can explore whatever subjects they find interesting."


Yep... employers aren't looking for people who have never failed, they're looking for people who can take responsibility, own up to failure, fix it, and move on... yet, we're taught that failure is such a horrible thing and that no one should ever experience it. Uh, sorry, that's not how the real world works. You're going to f*** up, and when you do, you better know how to handle it like an adult... hell, if you never f*** up, you're probably not taking chances and don't have much initiative, and a machine or someone from Bangalore will be doing your job soon.

My sister was like 300th/350 in her HS class, and she says her teachers told her "I know you're smart, you just don't apply yourself" and crap like that, and she believes every word.... yeah, now we're (we're = past generations, btw ;) ) loading them up with excuses before they hit the real world.
Employer: "I see you sucked at HS"
Applicant: "Oh, I was just lazy, I'll totally try harder for you lol"
Employer: "Can't argue with that, can you start tomorrow?"
^ Good luck with that.

Fat Elvis
07-09-2010, 09:58 AM
My defense would be that you're wasting a third of your day slowly getting depressed just to get home and find that you're too mentally burned out on mind-numbing crap/pencil-pushing to create a decent coverletter or resume. Whereas, on the other hand, working on networking/applying/etc for somewhere between 8 and 16 hours a day keeps him focused on the goal--and I wouldn't be the first to say that looking for a job is a full-time job in and of itself--while keeping him motivated to research other resumes/coverletters and alter his own accordingly...not to mention that the gradual starvation from forgetting to eat every now and then may cause epiphanies akin to those gained from vision quests.

Networking on Mom's couch? Wouldn't networking in the real world be better? WTF do I know? I only have a job, family, house and no debt....

Bob Dole
07-09-2010, 10:08 AM
I'm sorry Bob Dole, but I just can't see how the Millennials are responsible for 100% of this. Which generation created the low expectations for the children currently in school? Aren't a lot of Boomers in the teaching field? I'm pretty sure there are MANY educators in their 50's and 60's, NOT wanting to reture, particularly now in such a weak economy.

Laying the blame on one generation solely is complete BS.

Reading comprehension fail? Where did Bob Dole assign 100% of the blame on Millennials?

Bob Dole is pretty certain that he said WE HAVE CREATED a generation of individuals with a sense of entitlement. It's certainly not their fault--they know nothing else, and society goes out of its way to make sure they don't know anything else.

We're all equal! Just because Bill down the block is a lazy fuck who couldn't be bothered to put forth the effort to finish high school, doesn't mean that Bill doesn't deserve all the fine things in life the rest of us enjoy! It's everyone's responsibility to make sure Bill wants for nothing and has feelings of self worth!

loochy
07-09-2010, 10:10 AM
Reading comprehension fail? Where did Bob Dole assign 100% of the blame on Millennials?

Bob Dole is pretty certain that he said WE HAVE CREATED a generation of individuals with a sense of entitlement. It's certainly not their fault--they know nothing else, and society goes out of its way to make sure they don't know anything else.

We're all equal! Just because Bill down the block is a lazy fuck who couldn't be bothered to put forth the effort to finish high school, doesn't mean that Bill doesn't deserve all the fine things in life the rest of us enjoy! It's everyone's responsibility to make sure Bill wants for nothing and has feelings of self worth!

When did anyone say we are all responsible for this guy's self worth? If his parents feel like (and have the resources) to support him, why shouldn't he look for what he wants?

phisherman
07-09-2010, 10:10 AM
The Greatest Generation made huge sacrifices to make this the most powerful nation on Earth. The Boomers pretty much maintained it. Now the Millennials, so far removed from what was sacrificed to EARN the position we held, can take it all for granted as an entitlement and throw it all away.

this is the passage that i was referring to. i realize what you meant now, in context with the rest of the post, but this small part sure makes it sound like The Greatest Generation and The Boomers were good to go, and then the Millennials pissed it away.

RJ
07-09-2010, 10:11 AM
I have always told my sons.....Doing something always leads to something, doing nothing always leads to nothing.

Basically, if you get moving something good will probably happen. If you sit on your ass it definitely won't.

Cave Johnson
07-09-2010, 10:16 AM
Worcester is a hole. That said, color me shocked a millennial has an entitled attitude.....

The Pedestrian
07-09-2010, 01:05 PM
Networking on Mom's couch? Wouldn't networking in the real world be better? WTF do I know? I only have a job, family, house and no debt....

Yes, in fact, it would be better in the real world. It's also even better if you're out networking in your field rather than sitting in an insurance cubicle all day.

RJ
07-09-2010, 01:10 PM
Yes, in fact, it would be better in the real world. It's also even better if you're out networking in your field rather than sitting in an insurance cubicle all day.


Wouldn't most of the people he would need to "network" with be at work?

The Pedestrian
07-09-2010, 01:19 PM
Actually, sitting in an office & getting paid for 8 hours a day followed by a few hours of job hunting is less depressing than spending all day everyday dealing with the rejection and struggles of looking for a job. I don't think sitting at your computer 16 hours a day looking for a job is a good way to avoid being depressed.

Besides, you make it sound like a defense mechanism to avoid admitting failure (and that's what sucks about America's schools, but that's a whole new discussion). If taking a $10/hr job doesn't get someone's ass in gear, they probably don't have the motivation needed to get and keep a better job, anyway. Not that being unemployed is failure these days, but regardless of the economy, college grads will always think of it that way.... (and not being able to admit failure isn't something employers are looking for, btw).

If you get mentally burned out by a 40hr/week (or less) job, how would you deal with real stress? I get what you're saying, your brain can get mushy when you don't exercise it, but again, is it really all that worse than not having a job?

I've used the same basic resume/cover letter for 10 years and been fine... there's no 16-hour workday tweaking a resume or cover letter; it might take 15 minutes to change a few things for each job. I guess it's catchy to say looking for a job is a full time job, but there's only so much you can do, especially if you're not even looking for the jobs that are supposedly beneath you. There are only so many local companies, only so many job sites, etc.... and even if there was enough to keep someone busy, there's no way I'd be able to stay focused on it & stay motivated for that long each day. Hell, if someone had enough resources to keep busy for 40-60 hours a week just looking for jobs, they would probably send out 1000 resumes in a month, and I don't see how that much rejection wouldn't be depressing.

First of all, I'm going to start from the bottom and point out that you're also in the IT field, which has specific targets/jargon/etc. Your resume hasn't changed in 10 years because it doesn't have to...just like all other natural-science/technology/medical positions. Liberal Arts and Social Sciences, on the other hand, are about developing skill sets so that a wide variety of jobs are available; unfortunately, everyone graduating has the same skill sets. It becomes more about selling yourself and improving those skills...to do that, employers want you to actually research their company so they know you will stay with them.

And on second thought, I'm not going to bother with the rest of your "arguments".

The Pedestrian
07-09-2010, 01:26 PM
This is spoken like someone who has yet to graduate school and have that true WTF moment when you realize you need a job. Any job. Dream jobs are just that right now. Dreams. Unless you're a Harvard grad or in a highly specialized field you can't afford to be picky.

And absolutely nobody spends 8-16 hours a day networking/applying.


I actually have graduated with my Bachelors and been going for jobs that will utilize the skills I've learned in college.

And, yes, I--like several other graduates today--do spend 8-16 hours networking/applying. Every day. I'd be willing to assume you haven't seen the reports yet that establish 18 - 24 as the age group currently having the hardest time getting jobs. Would I be correct in that assumption?

Brock
07-09-2010, 01:27 PM
Yes, in fact, it would be better in the real world. It's also even better if you're out networking in your field rather than sitting in an insurance cubicle all day.

You don't have a "field".

RJ
07-09-2010, 01:29 PM
I actually have graduated with my Bachelors and been going for jobs that will utilize the skills I've learned in college.

And, yes, I--like several other graduates today--do spend 8-16 hours networking/applying. Every day. I'd be willing to assume you haven't seen the reports yet that establish 18 - 24 as the age group currently having the hardest time getting jobs. Would I be correct in that assumption?


I have to ask.....how do you do that? What exactly do you do that takes up that many hours of your day?

Brock
07-09-2010, 01:30 PM
I have to ask.....how do you do that? What exactly do you do that takes up that many hours of your day?

Is Facebook considered networking?

stumppy
07-09-2010, 01:39 PM
Yes, in fact, it would be better in the real world. It's also even better if you're out networking in your field rather than sitting in an insurance cubicle all day.

Theres a little flaw in your reasoning. It has to do with the way things actually are in the real world not the way you percieve them to be.

If your are gainfully employed anywhere doing anything you are a much better prospect to any perspective employer than the dumb schmuck who has spent month after month after month sending out resumes and networking. All things being equal the guy who already works a steady job while looking move up the job ladder is already proving himself a better prospect than the one who lives in moms basement while sending resumes and holding out for a managment position.

Demonpenz
07-09-2010, 01:45 PM
I should quit my job and focus all my energy into writing a pickup girls book with ms paint drawings.

warpaint*
07-09-2010, 01:50 PM
I actually have graduated with my Bachelors and been going for jobs that will utilize the skills I've learned in college.

And, yes, I--like several other graduates today--do spend 8-16 hours networking/applying. Every day. I'd be willing to assume you haven't seen the reports yet that establish 18 - 24 as the age group currently having the hardest time getting jobs. Would I be correct in that assumption?

Oh......you're just a kid.

Well heck that explains why you don't know what you're talking about.

SDChiefs
07-09-2010, 01:51 PM
Do you have personal experience with that? I know that at my company they SAY that and they lead you to believe that. You might even get an interview. But odds are if you didn't start as "so and so position" you will NOT be hired into the new job. For what it's worth, I work at a MAJOR international company that everyone here will recognize.

I would have to disagree. I have done many different jobs and have never been held back for not having experience in that current industry. If you have a good enough work history and do well in the interview you most certainly can get a job in just about any industry. All you have to prove to them is that you can learn it. Some would prefer not having prior exp. because then they can train you their way.

Bearcat
07-09-2010, 01:54 PM
First of all, I'm going to start from the bottom and point out that you're also in the IT field, which has specific targets/jargon/etc. Your resume hasn't changed in 10 years because it doesn't have to...just like all other natural-science/technology/medical positions. Liberal Arts and Social Sciences, on the other hand, are about developing skill sets so that a wide variety of jobs are available; unfortunately, everyone graduating has the same skill sets. It becomes more about selling yourself and improving those skills...to do that, employers want you to actually research their company so they know you will stay with them.

And on second thought, I'm not going to bother with the rest of your "arguments".

LOL, yeah, the perspective from someone who had to make a seasonal mailroom/CSR job a permanent job for over a year after college, and has since gone on to work worldwide in his selected industry and makes over 200% of what he was making <5 years ago is ridiculous.... no need to get off your high horse and even consider that person's opinion, much less learn from it.


FFS.

And yeah, the data on my resume has changed quite a bit, I was talking about the need to format/reformat/reword/etc that's unecessary to the degree that you're describing it. Yeah, in the tech world, there's an endless supply of skills that I could have sat at home learning, but employers want real-life experience or at least formal education (there are exceptions, of course). And yes, every company regardless of the industry wants you to research the company itself and the job.... it takes maybe 15-30 minutes to do that. Of course, you could research all day, but there's really no point in that since most won't ever call once much less schedule 2nd and 3rd interviews. It sounds like you're trying to bullshit your way through an interview, trying to perfect your resume to make yourself standout... the thing about HR people and interviewers (aka your potential manager) is they've been around the block a few times and know what questions to ask in order to cut the crap.

The Pedestrian
07-09-2010, 05:05 PM
I have to ask.....how do you do that? What exactly do you do that takes up that many hours of your day?

Originally, it was searching through Monster, CareerBuilder, and other such sites to send out a pretty general resume and a coverletter that was tailored a little bit for each job...then during breaks, research how to make the resume and coverletter better. From the best advice I've found, it seemed much better to change strategies. So more recently, it's look into each company's website, tailor the resume and coverletter to match each position and sometimes even a little extra to say "Yes, I'm promotable," and, naturally, speaking with people who are connected to either a job or someone who is connected to a job.
Yes, it's the longer way. It's less convenient than clicking "Apply" to every decent job on career boards. But I am getting fewer scam/phishing emails from people who allegedly saw my public resume.

Pablo
07-09-2010, 05:39 PM
I actually have graduated with my Bachelors and been going for jobs that will utilize the skills I've learned in college.

And, yes, I--like several other graduates today--do spend 8-16 hours networking/applying. Every day. I'd be willing to assume you haven't seen the reports yet that establish 18 - 24 as the age group currently having the hardest time getting jobs. Would I be correct in that assumption?Brah. I'm 23 years old. I like most everyone in my age group thought I'd graduate school and find that the world was my oyster. That I'd find a job that was specifically tailored to the "skillset" I acquired in college. Truth is, I got a BS in Econ. It's not that riveting. It doesn't make me an economist and Charles Schwab didn't want to hire me just because I HAZ AN ECON DEGREEZ I DESERVEZ CUSHY, HI PAYIN JOBZ. Business degrees(including mine) are almost as worthless as liberal arts degrees in the general career population.

They aren't impressive. You aren't any different than the other 20,000 people like yourself that applied for "good" jobs with a BA in Philosophy or a soft ass Business Management degree. Really dude, you don't learn any real "skills" in college. Skills are acquired in the job market. You'll never acquire any of them without getting a job first and holding out for that "dream job" that perfectly utilized your particular learned skillset is laughable. I was there once too man. I thought like you did for about a month after I graduated school last spring. Then I realized I have an assload of debt and need to be able to eat.

Your degree is just an incredibly expensive piece of paper that says you had the fortitude to stick it out. It doesn't mean shit to anyone. That's just how it is.

BWillie
07-09-2010, 05:43 PM
Brah. I'm 23 years old. I like most everyone in my age group thought I'd graduate school and find that the world was my oyster. That I'd find a job that was specifically tailored to the "skillset" I acquired in college. Truth is, I got a BS in Econ. It's not that riveting. It doesn't make me an economist and Charles Schwab didn't want to hire me just because I HAZ AN ECON DEGREEZ I DESERVEZ CUSHY, HI PAYIN JOBZ. Business degrees(including mine) are almost as worthless as liberal arts degrees in the general career population.

They aren't impressive. You aren't any different than the other 20,000 people like yourself that applied for "good" jobs with a BA in Philosophy or a soft ass Business Management degree. Really dude, you don't learn any real "skills" in college. Skills are acquired in the job market. You'll never acquire any of them without getting a job first and holding out for that "dream job" that perfectly utilized your particular learned skillset is laughable. I was there once too man. I thought like you did for about a month after I graduated school last spring. Then I realized I have an assload of debt and need to be able to eat.

Your degree is just an incredibly expensive piece of paper that says you had the fortitude to stick it out. It doesn't mean shit to anyone. That's just how it is.

You nailed it head on. This coming from a 26 year old guy w/ a bachelors degree in business marketing.

Bearcat
07-09-2010, 07:22 PM
Originally, it was searching through Monster, CareerBuilder, and other such sites to send out a pretty general resume and a coverletter that was tailored a little bit for each job...then during breaks, research how to make the resume and coverletter better. From the best advice I've found, it seemed much better to change strategies. So more recently, it's look into each company's website, tailor the resume and coverletter to match each position and sometimes even a little extra to say "Yes, I'm promotable," and, naturally, speaking with people who are connected to either a job or someone who is connected to a job.
Yes, it's the longer way. It's less convenient than clicking "Apply" to every decent job on career boards. But I am getting fewer scam/phishing emails from people who allegedly saw my public resume.

That's really no different than anyone else who's motivated to stick out in the crowd, and it doesn't take that much time. You can tell us it takes all day everyday to apply for jobs and that you don't have time for even a part time job, but then again it doesn't really matter if we believe it or not.

Seriously, don't fool yourself... with 20 hours a week at $10/hr, you can take home over $600/month, and if you only have that job for one month, it'll pay for the security deposit on an apartment, and for every month you're not making that $600/month, you're basically wasting a chance to save a month's rent at a future apartment or two car payments or whatever.

Brah. I'm 23 years old. I like most everyone in my age group thought I'd graduate school and find that the world was my oyster. That I'd find a job that was specifically tailored to the "skillset" I acquired in college. Truth is, I got a BS in Econ. It's not that riveting. It doesn't make me an economist and Charles Schwab didn't want to hire me just because I HAZ AN ECON DEGREEZ I DESERVEZ CUSHY, HI PAYIN JOBZ. Business degrees(including mine) are almost as worthless as liberal arts degrees in the general career population.

They aren't impressive. You aren't any different than the other 20,000 people like yourself that applied for "good" jobs with a BA in Philosophy or a soft ass Business Management degree. Really dude, you don't learn any real "skills" in college. Skills are acquired in the job market. You'll never acquire any of them without getting a job first and holding out for that "dream job" that perfectly utilized your particular learned skillset is laughable. I was there once too man. I thought like you did for about a month after I graduated school last spring. Then I realized I have an assload of debt and need to be able to eat.

Your degree is just an incredibly expensive piece of paper that says you had the fortitude to stick it out. It doesn't mean shit to anyone. That's just how it is.

Hey, another person with that perspective thing.... :clap:

RJ
07-09-2010, 08:59 PM
Originally, it was searching through Monster, CareerBuilder, and other such sites to send out a pretty general resume and a coverletter that was tailored a little bit for each job...then during breaks, research how to make the resume and coverletter better. From the best advice I've found, it seemed much better to change strategies. So more recently, it's look into each company's website, tailor the resume and coverletter to match each position and sometimes even a little extra to say "Yes, I'm promotable," and, naturally, speaking with people who are connected to either a job or someone who is connected to a job.
Yes, it's the longer way. It's less convenient than clicking "Apply" to every decent job on career boards. But I am getting fewer scam/phishing emails from people who allegedly saw my public resume.


Apparently job hunting has changed a lot over the years.

While you're looking you might consider working part time in a restaurant. You could make a few bucks and maybe bang a couple of waitresses. Bartending is a good gig for a young man. There are few better ways to "network" than tending bar.

Just a suggestion.

The Pedestrian
07-09-2010, 10:52 PM
Apparently job hunting has changed a lot over the years.

While you're looking you might consider working part time in a restaurant. You could make a few bucks and maybe bang a couple of waitresses. Bartending is a good gig for a young man. There are few better ways to "network" than tending bar.

Just a suggestion.

Yeah, I've been trying with some of the restaurants around here, too. Just hoping my applications don't get lost in the shuffle (I used to help friends out of that particular mess).