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Fat Elvis
07-13-2010, 09:45 AM
I watched this documentary on netflix last night.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/suicidetourist/

It was pretty thought provoking. I understand his reasons for committing suicide, but I don't know if I, personally, could go through with it.

For PBS, it was pretty "in your face." They didn't pull any punches.

Slainte
07-13-2010, 09:50 AM
Yes, I could and would commit suicide if I were in Craig Ewert's position. Who the fuck would want to live with ALS?

Frosty
07-13-2010, 09:50 AM
At this point, I would have to say no. However, if I were faced with a terminal, painful disease, I may change my mind.

Monty
07-13-2010, 09:55 AM
No way, no how, not under any circumstances, period.

kepp
07-13-2010, 09:55 AM
At this point, I would have to say no. However, if I were faced with a terminal, painful disease, I may change my mind.

Yeah, it's hard to give a blanket answer to this.

Mr. Laz
07-13-2010, 09:56 AM
i don't know if i could but ....

OnTheWarpath58
07-13-2010, 10:04 AM
Yes, I could and would commit suicide if I were in Craig Ewert's position. Who the fuck would want to live with ALS?

Bruce Edwards, Tom Watson's old caddy, for one.

That SOB was still carrying Tom's bag literally until the day he couldn't anymore. At one point he was writing down yardages for Tom because his speech had become unintelligible.

I don't care what I have, I'm living every day I possibly can.

Monty
07-13-2010, 10:06 AM
Bruce Edwards, Tom Watson's old caddy, for one.

That SOB was still carrying Tom's bag literally until the day he couldn't anymore. At one point he was writing down yardages for Tom because his speech had become unintelligible.

I don't care what I have, I'm living every day I possibly can.

Ed Zachary.

Brock
07-13-2010, 10:06 AM
If it looked as if I was going to be spending the next few years drooling and shitting my pants, I'd have to consider it.

Gonzo
07-13-2010, 10:08 AM
Every time Buck starts a thread, I die a little inside.
Posted via Mobile Device

OnTheWarpath58
07-13-2010, 10:14 AM
Ed Zachary.

Ed Zachary as in, "exactly, I agree with this post"?

Or, Ed Zachary as in "Ed Zachary Disease."

Where your face looks Ed Zachary like your ass?

I've been living with the latter for 37 years.

LMAO

jiveturkey
07-13-2010, 10:15 AM
When I watched the Road I thought it would be better to kill myself than wonder around a planet that can't support any form of life.

Since that scenario is highly unlikely I'll go with the painful debilitating disease as a reason to consider. It would probably take a while to come into a consideration though.

luv
07-13-2010, 10:18 AM
Everything happens for a reason. Sure, sometimes you have to make things happen, but death is not one of those things.

CaliforniaChief
07-13-2010, 10:22 AM
Another documentary about suicide (although through different method) is a show called "The Bridge" which documents people who jump off the Golden Gate Bridge and the stories that lead to them jumping. In many cases, they actually show the person jumping. They had a camera fixed on the bridge for a year, or something like that.

Personally I would never do it. (suicide by bridge or by Swiss). But rooting for the Chiefs/Royals has been like a slow sort of suicide.

RJ
07-13-2010, 10:23 AM
Personally, I don't plan on cheating myself out of a single second of this life.

Jilly
07-13-2010, 10:25 AM
I could not. Even when faced with a terminal illness (or so I say now). And the reason is....

when my grandma was diagnosed with ahlseimer's I hated it. I wanted her to die. It just wasn't her and I thought it so cruel that she had to live out the rest of her days in that condition. I felt like she had no purpose, no reason for being alive and all her dignity was stripped from her.
The day of her funeral.....all of the nurses from the care center showed up. And they all came up to me telling me how much my grandmother had blessed them. How they loved her and it was because of her they went to work and wanted to be there.
She had a purpose, it may not have been what I thought her purpose was, it wasn't to be my grandmother anymore, but she had a reason for being here, even if I couldn't see it.

Count Alex's Wins
07-13-2010, 10:27 AM
Only if I could do it live on the internet.

Lumpy
07-13-2010, 10:30 AM
When you're already dead inside, suicide would be overkill. Might as well try to enjoy the ride and see where your life takes you.

SDChiefs
07-13-2010, 10:36 AM
If I were paralyzed or had a painful terminal illness then whats the point of living? If you can't be happy, might as well be dead. Bring on Dr. K.

CHENZ A!
07-13-2010, 10:37 AM
Fuck all that, I'll fight.
Posted via Mobile Device

Count Alex's Wins
07-13-2010, 10:44 AM
When you're already dead inside, suicide would be overkill. Might as well try to enjoy the ride and see where your life takes you.

I agree totally.

I knew a guy who didn't have a very good relationship with his parents when he was about 17. He used to hang out with an old family friend quite a bit. This was an older, single man, so he got all kinds of shit for it.

It didn't help that his best friend left to go off to school. He didn't have many friends, but this old guy had always been there for him. So anyway, one day he's palling around with his surrogate grandpa, and in his absence his parents were murdered in their own home. Shot to pieces.

This guy was devastated of course, and went off to live with the old guy. He didn't have any relatives, so the old man was sort of like his foster parent. Told him stories, showed him life, took him out to a bar, met a couple of new friends.

They moved away, and things were looking up, and when they got to their new home it was GONE. Nothing left. Completely destroyed, like the kid's parents.

Then, to make matters worse, turns out the government apparently had all kinds of shit on this old man. He got arrested, fought the cops, and was killed senselessly.

So basically, this kid had nothing. But he never contemplated suicide, even though he got really depressed. Eventually the new friends he met through the old man steered him in the right direction and Luke Skywalker blew up the death star and saved the Rebel Alliance.

OnTheWarpath58
07-13-2010, 10:46 AM
I agree totally.

I knew a guy who didn't have a very good relationship with his parents when he was about 17. He used to hang out with an old family friend quite a bit. This was an older, single man, so he got all kinds of shit for it.

It didn't help that his best friend left to go off to school. He didn't have many friends, but this old guy had always been there for him. So anyway, one day he's palling around with his surrogate grandpa, and in his absence his parents were murdered in their own home. Shot to pieces.

This guy was devastated of course, and went off to live with the old guy. He didn't have any relatives, so the old man was sort of like his foster parent. Told him stories, showed him life, took him out to a bar, met a couple of new friends.

They moved away, and things were looking up, and when they got to their new home it was GONE. Nothing left. Completely destroyed, like the kid's parents.

Then, to make matters worse, turns out the government apparently had all kinds of shit on this old man. He got arrested, fought the cops, and was killed senselessly.

So basically, this kid had nothing. But he never contemplated suicide, even though he got really depressed. Eventually the new friends he met through the old man steered him in the right direction and Luke Skywalker blew up the death star and saved the Rebel Alliance.

LMAO

CHENZ A!
07-13-2010, 10:49 AM
I agree totally.

I knew a guy who didn't have a very good relationship with his parents when he was about 17. He used to hang out with an old family friend quite a bit. This was an older, single man, so he got all kinds of shit for it.

It didn't help that his best friend left to go off to school. He didn't have many friends, but this old guy had always been there for him. So anyway, one day he's palling around with his surrogate grandpa, and in his absence his parents were murdered in their own home. Shot to pieces.

This guy was devastated of course, and went off to live with the old guy. He didn't have any relatives, so the old man was sort of like his foster parent. Told him stories, showed him life, took him out to a bar, met a couple of new friends.

They moved away, and things were looking up, and when they got to their new home it was GONE. Nothing left. Completely destroyed, like the kid's parents.

Then, to make matters worse, turns out the government apparently had all kinds of shit on this old man. He got arrested, fought the cops, and was killed senselessly.

So basically, this kid had nothing. But he never contemplated suicide, even though he got really depressed. Eventually the new friends he met through the old man steered him in the right direction and Luke Skywalker blew up the death star and saved the Rebel Alliance.

This sounds made up to me.
Posted via Mobile Device

Heather
07-13-2010, 10:51 AM
Terminal illness would probably lead me to suicide. I would try, perhaps, to find another answer, but personally, I wouldn't want to leave the kind of debt behind me that major illnesses incur.

Lonewolf Ed
07-13-2010, 10:53 AM
Being relatively healthy and happy, it seems plausible to say suicide would be an option if faced with a permanent disability that ruined the quality of life. Then, I'd have to weigh quality versus quantity. But, if I found myself in that situation, maybe my views would change. It's pure conjecture not being in the condition. If I was like the guy in the Metallica song "One," then as the line from Pet Cemetery goes... sometimes, dead is bettah.

ChiTown
07-13-2010, 10:56 AM
This sounds made up to me.
Posted via Mobile Device

It's true. I saw the movie.......

SCTrojan
07-13-2010, 10:57 AM
Suicide? No.

Homicide? Probably.

MOhillbilly
07-13-2010, 11:02 AM
My best friend when i was little put head phones on and walked train tracks untill a train came along.

Lumpy
07-13-2010, 11:02 AM
Leave it GC to play off my serious post w/ something ghey. :p

BigMeatballDave
07-13-2010, 11:04 AM
If I were terminal and living with excruciating pain daily and people had to care for me, then yes, without question.

Count Alex's Wins
07-13-2010, 11:07 AM
This sounds made up to me.
Posted via Mobile Device

OK you got me. I altered the story a bit.

The deal is this guy lived alone, and his only real friend was this fat drunk slob. The old man was this creepy dude who kept coming around pestering him, trying to get him to go off in the woods, just the two of them.

Creepy as fuck, right? Anyway, this dude's life is so fucked up he eventually AGREES and goes off in the wilderness with this old guy, with the condition that his fat drunk friend comes along. Even so, he's no help, and they end up in a FUCKING CAVE with a bunch of the old dude's creepy friends. Can you imagine?

So this guy is in this cave with all these creepy dudes, not knowing if he's gonna be raped, killed, eaten, who knows what. The old dude falls down a hole and dies, which is horrific enough as it is, but now essentially this guy is alone with a bunch of strangers.

And what do they do? They drag him off into the woods to meet a bunch of hippies. It's not so bad at first, but they're sleeping one night and one of the hippie chicks is like high on acid or something and basically FREAKS OUT and attacks this dude. I mean, holy fuck.

So this dude is just tagging along with these weirdos, not knowing what the hell is going to happen next. Eventually, a bunch of gangs throw down with these dudes. So this guy basically could have been killed dozens, maybe hundreds of miles from home. He was scared shitless, but he found it within himself to escape. He got his fat friend, got in a fucking boat and rowed the fuck on out of there.

And eventually Frodo saved Middle Earth.

boogblaster
07-13-2010, 11:07 AM
if in pain with no relief .. hand me a gun ....

BigMeatballDave
07-13-2010, 11:08 AM
I just would not want to be a burden to anyone, especially my son.

Fat Elvis
07-13-2010, 11:14 AM
"I am dying. There is no sense in trying to deny that fact," 59-year-old Craig Ewert says of his rapid deterioration just months after being diagnosed with ALS, a motor neuron disorder often referred to as Lou Gehrig's disease.

"I'm not tired of living," explains Ewert, a retired computer science professor. "I'm tired of the disease, but I'm not tired of living. And I still enjoy it enough that I'd like to continue. But the thing is that I really can't."

Directed by Academy Award-winning filmmaker John Zaritsky, The Suicide Tourist is a portrait of Ewert's final days as the Chicago native pursues a physician-assisted suicide in the one place where it's legal for foreigners to come to end their lives: Switzerland. With unique access to Dignitas, the Swiss nonprofit that has helped more than 1,000 people die since 1998, The Suicide Tourist follows Ewert as he debates the morality -- and confronts the reality -- of choosing to die before his disease further ravages his body, and he loses the option to die without unbearable suffering.

"At this point, I've got two choices," Ewert reasons. "If I go through with it, I die, as I must at some point. If I don't go through with it, my choice is essentially to suffer and to inflict suffering on my family and then die -- possibly in a way that is considerably more stressful and painful than this way. So I've got death, and I've got suffering and death. You know, this makes a whole lot of sense to me."

Assisted suicide is legal in Switzerland and several other countries, as well as in two U.S. states. But only Switzerland allows outsiders to come in to end their lives, leading to criticism about "suicide tourism." The Swiss government has recently countered by imposing greater restrictions on the sorts of cases Swiss doctors can approve for suicide, largely limiting it to those in the late stages of terminal illness who feel their lives have become unbearable -- the same standard that's in place in Oregon and Washington state.

"There are people who will look at this and say: 'No. Suicide is wrong. God has forbidden it. You cannot play God and take your own life.'" Craig Ewert anticipates some of the objections to the act he's preparing to carry out. "But you know what? This ventilator is playing God. If I had lived without access to technology, chances are I would be dead now."

As Ewert journeys through Switzerland and is wheeled into the Zurich apartment rented by Dignitas where he will drink the lethal sedative that will end his life, his wife, Mary, stands by his side. She is there to kiss him goodbye and wish him a "safe journey" as the medication takes hold and his eyes close for the final time. "In a sense, I lost Craig six months ago as he was," Mary Ewert explains. "[These last months] we probably had more of one another than maybe in the past. ... You know, there may have been some people who still think, well, I wouldn't have done that, or he shouldn't have done that, or something. But if they felt that way, they didn't say anything to me about it. I [still] feel his presence. ..."

This intro kind of situates the discussion from Ewerts perspective....

CoMoChief
07-13-2010, 11:22 AM
If I was terminally ill on my death bed in a hospital non-responsive, I'd let my parents, wife etc, pull the plug.

I could very well easy commit suicide, anyone can, just get a gun and blow your head off. Doesn't mean I'm ever going to do it or every think about doing it.

I could never do something like that. People who do that are being selfish.

Hog Farmer
07-13-2010, 11:55 AM
Hey, I've been jacking off Boars for 20 years. If I haven't killed myself yet chances are I won't. But then again, I swear , if I get shot in the eye one more fucking time !

Old Dog
07-13-2010, 01:44 PM
I guess I could, but don't have any intention of doing so anytime soon.
In my younger years thought of it numerous times (as many have).

At a particularly dark period in my life I came damn close once (closer than I care to admit really). I realized that it was a move that only a selfish son of a bitch would pull and though it may be the "easy way out" for me it could undoubtedly leave emotional scars on those that I care about that may never heal. I unloaded the gun, put it away, went and grabbed a bottle of bourbon (probably not the smartest move, but it worked) and sat there and drank for a while.
Though in retrospect I can't honestly say I "dealt with" what the issue at the time was it's hazy at best in my mind and I can say that for the past 15 years or so I've never thought about doing it again and I am quite thankful that I wasn't selfish enough to finish the job.

Renegade
07-13-2010, 01:46 PM
No way, no how, not under any circumstances, period.

This!!

FAX
07-13-2010, 02:08 PM
Interesting thread, Mr. Fat Elvis. Somber and somewhat depressing, but interesting nonetheless. I have a personal story on the subject ...

My best friend growing up ... from grade/middle/high school ... I was best man at his wedding and he was best man at mine ... committed suicide early this summer. He was absolutely the last person in the world whom I would have expected to be capable of such an act. I knew him well and he was an extremely strong, independent and solid individual. He was, however, very close to my mother and took her passing awfully hard. On top of that, he was having difficulties with his wife who was a hard-nosed, greedy person and who was threatening a very nasty divorce. But, still ... I never would have dreamed him capable of suicide. Not in my wildest nightmares would I have thought it possible. When I last saw him (at my mother's memorial service) I knew he seemed depressed and even tried to convince him to come to Nashville for a couple of weeks to hang out. Unfortunately, a couple of months later, he shot himself in the heart with a twenty-gauge pump. He waited until his wife was coming home and did it where she could find him as soon as she arrived. An expression of anger, no doubt.

I guess what I'm saying is that this event has convinced me that anyone ... and I mean anyone ... is ultimately capable of the act under certain circumstances. All it takes is a complete and absolute loss of all hope, depression, and a desire to punish the people whom you think have let you down. I never really believed that before, but I do now.

FAX

booger
07-13-2010, 02:14 PM
i'll have to read up on more of this thread later..........gonna be away from the computer.

had a parent that i wasn't very close with do it.

tough on his friends and siblings/family.

ChiTown
07-13-2010, 02:38 PM
I'm not trying to throw my religion around, but it is my belief that the only one that can determine life and death is God. If it is his will that I should die, then so be it. However, I believe those that take their own life are sentenced to eternal damnation (I know, there are all sorts of situations that "could" be justified). However, I feel strongly that none of them would be justified in the eyes of the Lord. Therefore, I can't and won't go against His will.

Sorry for the minor rant and possibly sounding like a crazy bible thumper (which I'm actually not).

CrazyPhuD
07-13-2010, 03:04 PM
If I was depressed no...

But if I was crippled without possibility of recovery or terminally ill, then yes 110% I could. Now in those cases I'd rather go out testing highly experimental surgeries that have small percentages that would work but we could learn something, rather than traditional suicide. But doubtful that the government would let me donate my life to science.

Jilly
07-13-2010, 03:52 PM
I'm not trying to throw my religion around, but it is my belief that the only one that can determine life and death is God. If it is his will that I should die, then so be it. However, I believe those that take their own life are sentenced to eternal damnation (I know, there are all sorts of situations that "could" be justified). However, I feel strongly that none of them would be justified in the eyes of the Lord. Therefore, I can't and won't go against His will.

Sorry for the minor rant and possibly sounding like a crazy bible thumper (which I'm actually not).

Oh man, I am never going to take you seriously again!

Brock
07-13-2010, 03:55 PM
However, I believe those that take their own life are sentenced to eternal damnation (I know, there are all sorts of situations that "could" be justified). However, I feel strongly that none of them would be justified in the eyes of the Lord.

What about people who sacrifice their own lives to protect others?

Otter
07-13-2010, 04:13 PM
Interesting thread, Mr. Fat Elvis. Somber and somewhat depressing, but interesting nonetheless. I have a personal story on the subject ...

My best friend growing up ... from grade/middle/high school ... I was best man at his wedding and he was best man at mine ... committed suicide early this summer. He was absolutely the last person in the world whom I would have expected to be capable of such an act. I knew him well and he was an extremely strong, independent and solid individual. He was, however, very close to my mother and took her passing awfully hard. On top of that, he was having difficulties with his wife who was a hard-nosed, greedy person and who was threatening a very nasty divorce. But, still ... I never would have dreamed him capable of suicide. Not in my wildest nightmares would I have thought it possible. When I last saw him (at my mother's memorial service) I knew he seemed depressed and even tried to convince him to come to Nashville for a couple of weeks to hang out. Unfortunately, a couple of months later, he shot himself in the heart with a twenty-gauge pump. He waited until his wife was coming home and did it where she could find him as soon as she arrived. An expression of anger, no doubt.

I guess what I'm saying is that this event has convinced me that anyone ... and I mean anyone ... is ultimately capable of the act under certain circumstances. All it takes is a complete and absolute loss of all hope, depression, and a desire to punish the people whom you think have let you down. I never really believed that before, but I do now.

FAX

I have a very good friend (best friend if that still applies in your mid 30s) that is going through a very hard time right now very similar to what your friend went through. His wife already left him in a nasty divorce and she remarried to someone he knows quiet well although I wouldn't call them close friends.

He still lives in my hometown which is small and everyone knows everyone else's business to some extent. I have multiple friends back there who I talk to and inform me he's in debt up to his eyeballs (he personally owes me $3000 for over a year) and never returns anyone's phone calls or goes out on 'get together' nights.

He used to be one of the most outgoing people and at the risk of sounding gayish he's got looks that rival any Hollywood actor and all he does is sit at home and wallow in misery when he could be out meeting tons of girls or coming to visit me in the city and leave his troubles behind for a couple days. I'm certain he has full blown depression and I have no idea what to do about it and I'm beginning to fear the worst because things are getting worse, not better and it's been over a year since the divorce. Plenty of time to get back on your feet.

Do you drag him out of his house and get him committed to rehab? Have an intervention? I have no idea.

Anyway, Fax's story sparked that concern and I went off on a tangent.

To answer the question: probably. If faced with certain overwhelming odds but I don't know. My self-preservation instinct is very strong. I almost drown (turned blue, not breathing) in a kayaking accident and didn't care for it much.

ChiTown
07-13-2010, 04:19 PM
What about people who sacrifice their own lives to protect others?

Like I said, there are all sorts of circumstances that are fuzzy. So, thankfully, that's not up for me to decide.

Stewie
07-13-2010, 04:20 PM
No. I'm going to fight to the bitter end. I have a colleague at work that was on death's bed and ready to die 12 years ago. If he had a gun he'd have done it, too. Now, there's no way he'd do it. He'd have missed so much, including his daughter's wedding last October.

SDChiefs
07-13-2010, 04:24 PM
What about people who sacrifice their own lives to protect others?

Its a selfless act therefore would be smiled upon by the Lord.

raybec 4
07-13-2010, 04:37 PM
If your body has been torn down by ALS or something of the like you have to make a choice between quantity and quality of life, in my book quality wins every time.

Brock
07-13-2010, 04:38 PM
Its a selfless act therefore would be smiled upon by the Lord.

Well, it could be considered a selfless act to want to spare your family from seeing you waste away little by little every day.

CHENZ A!
07-13-2010, 06:35 PM
OK you got me. I altered the story a bit.

The deal is this guy lived alone, and his only real friend was this fat drunk slob. The old man was this creepy dude who kept coming around pestering him, trying to get him to go off in the woods, just the two of them.

Creepy as ****, right? Anyway, this dude's life is so ****ed up he eventually AGREES and goes off in the wilderness with this old guy, with the condition that his fat drunk friend comes along. Even so, he's no help, and they end up in a ****ING CAVE with a bunch of the old dude's creepy friends. Can you imagine?

So this guy is in this cave with all these creepy dudes, not knowing if he's gonna be raped, killed, eaten, who knows what. The old dude falls down a hole and dies, which is horrific enough as it is, but now essentially this guy is alone with a bunch of strangers.

And what do they do? They drag him off into the woods to meet a bunch of hippies. It's not so bad at first, but they're sleeping one night and one of the hippie chicks is like high on acid or something and basically FREAKS OUT and attacks this dude. I mean, holy ****.

So this dude is just tagging along with these weirdos, not knowing what the hell is going to happen next. Eventually, a bunch of gangs throw down with these dudes. So this guy basically could have been killed dozens, maybe hundreds of miles from home. He was scared shitless, but he found it within himself to escape. He got his fat friend, got in a ****ing boat and rowed the **** on out of there.

And eventually Frodo saved Middle Earth.

I think I saw part of a documentary about that. it was really long, and boring.

-King-
07-13-2010, 07:21 PM
Well, it could be considered a selfless act to want to spare your family from seeing you waste away little by little every day.

Suicide would spare your family from feeling pain? Um, ok.

el borracho
07-13-2010, 07:35 PM
Certainly not while my mother is living- I couldn't do that to her. But, sure, if I were at a point where life was not enjoyable, had not been enjoyable for a long time and didn't think life would become enjoyable again then yes.

Sure-Oz
07-13-2010, 07:35 PM
I definetly could not put my family or friends through that

KC Tattoo
07-13-2010, 08:07 PM
The only way a person can truely live is to have Hope. With out hope one may not have reason to live. Look at drugs and alcohol users. Battered woman, or rape victims. living to want to die is not a way live. Tragic happens all the time. last week in a town near by, a husband slaughtered his wife & children, cut them up with a nife, How could a person do that? but how can you get hope if your a family member or friend of the family?

Hope and Love are as important as breathing. I know for me a while back I didn't have hope and I was dead inside I hated my life living in my own hell the pain, untill I got hope then that hope grew into faith and now i got faith and hope to live my life better & with joy in my heart. By the Grace of God.

LOCOChief
07-13-2010, 08:08 PM
Oh shit, maybe I never thought about it, but what a great idea.

I've been fight cancer for over 2/3 of my life. Chemo, radiation bone marrow transplants, surgeries, no hair, remission, scans and waiting for results. Extended leave of absence at work, scaring the shit out of family and friends, pain and nausia to no end.

But if I were to just kill myself that would mean that I wouldn't get to live tomorrow, and I really really want to.

WilliamTheIrish
07-13-2010, 08:14 PM
If I was terminally ill on my death bed in a hospital non-responsive, I'd let my parents, wife etc, pull the plug.....

There are literally almost nearly close to tens upon twelves of people who would try to stop this.

Gracie Dean
07-13-2010, 08:15 PM
I seriously don't think I could. I am a big baby when it comes to pain.



My cousin sat in his truck with a hose from his 4 wheeler in the window until he just went to sleep.

Saige2010
07-13-2010, 08:17 PM
No, I don't believe I could ever be that selfish.

Pablo
07-13-2010, 08:17 PM
There are literally almost nearly close to tens upon twelves of people who would try to stop this.LMAO

Gracie Dean
07-13-2010, 08:17 PM
I could not be that selfish to my daughter and husband and eventually my future grandchildren.

I have to admit I have thought sometimes....but I am a huge big baby when it comes to pain.

Gracie Dean
07-13-2010, 08:19 PM
This sounds made up to me.
Posted via Mobile Device



always, with this dickweed. Always

Groves
07-13-2010, 08:25 PM
People who do that are being selfish.

I assume you're just generalizing there. Fair enough.

It does bear mentioning, though, that while it seems like a cutesy summary that should fit all of life, it has no bearing in the real world.

There are any number of situations where selfishness is nowhere in the decision process. To make a blanket statement like that is only dismissive of people actually in those situations.

Read some stories of life in concentration camps or terminal illness. Selfishness is not an accurate automatic conclusion.

Saige2010
07-13-2010, 08:37 PM
Both my brother & cousin commited suicide. I don't remember why my brother took his own life ( I was very young) But in my cousin's case it was pure selfishness. I'm not saying that this is the senario for everyone.

Phobia
07-13-2010, 08:53 PM
I almost committed a murder/suicide when I gave up my share in ChiefsPlanet and went to work for a Chiefs magazine.

Phobia
07-13-2010, 08:58 PM
Oh man, I am never going to take you seriously again!

Because he believes something a little differently than you? Wow. This is what really annoys me about organized religion.

MahiMike
07-13-2010, 08:58 PM
Leave it GC to play off my serious post w/ something ghey. :p

Nice avi.

Brock
07-13-2010, 09:01 PM
Suicide would spare your family from feeling pain? Um, ok.

Like watching you die an agonizing slow death isn't worse?

Phobia
07-13-2010, 09:03 PM
My best friend when i was little put head phones on and walked train tracks untill a train came along.

That one is awful for you. As bad as it is for the family and friends left behind, it's worse on engineers. My neighbor and good friend is an engineer and while he hasn't killed anybody, he's known several colleagues who have in accidents and in suicides. It's devastatingly life altering for the engineers.

jAZ
07-13-2010, 09:07 PM
My wife's mom has advanced MS.

Mentally she is 100%. But physically, she went from impaired-but-walking to full quadriplegic in the 15 years I've known her.

Just before her nap at about noon, is the worst part of her day. She has very low speech volume on good days and slurred and completely unintelligible speech on bad days. She will lose her ability to communicate entirely some day not so long from now.

When she's well rested (first thing after she gets up in the morning or from a nap) she can eat and drink pretty well. Towards lunch time and dinner time, she has a hard time swallowing and chokes on most everything.

We have to keep a napkin below her mouth because the more tired she gets the more she drools. It never occurred to me, but her having to sneeze is about the worst thing ever. You don't know it's coming so you aren't prepared to "catch it" so it just goes everywhere.

She is deeply religious and about as positive a person as I have ever met.

That said, her condition is unimaginably difficult. She's not in physical pain, but she is in a bunch of emotional pain. She is a nurturer and a provider and she can't do anything for anyone.

For us, the end-of-life discussion is very personal and one we've been dealing with for about 5 years. And we will continue. We try to have it each year while she can talk because soon she won't be able to. At that point, we have to make the call on our own. That sucks.

I can't imagine why suicide and dr. assisted suicide is a remotely controversial topic. If someone is ready to have their life be over. Let them go with dignity and a modicum of empowerment.

FAX
07-13-2010, 09:23 PM
I have a very good friend (best friend if that still applies in your mid 30s) that is going through a very hard time right now very similar to what your friend went through. His wife already left him in a nasty divorce and she remarried to someone he knows quiet well although I wouldn't call them close friends.

He still lives in my hometown which is small and everyone knows everyone else's business to some extent. I have multiple friends back there who I talk to and inform me he's in debt up to his eyeballs (he personally owes me $3000 for over a year) and never returns anyone's phone calls or goes out on 'get together' nights.

He used to be one of the most outgoing people and at the risk of sounding gayish he's got looks that rival any Hollywood actor and all he does is sit at home and wallow in misery when he could be out meeting tons of girls or coming to visit me in the city and leave his troubles behind for a couple days. I'm certain he has full blown depression and I have no idea what to do about it and I'm beginning to fear the worst because things are getting worse, not better and it's been over a year since the divorce. Plenty of time to get back on your feet.

Do you drag him out of his house and get him committed to rehab? Have an intervention? I have no idea.

Anyway, Fax's story sparked that concern and I went off on a tangent.

To answer the question: probably. If faced with certain overwhelming odds but I don't know. My self-preservation instinct is very strong. I almost drown (turned blue, not breathing) in a kayaking accident and didn't care for it much.

It does sound similar, Mr. Otter. I can tell you this ... if I had it all to do over again, I would make every effort to get my friend over to my house then out and about for a couple of weeks ... anything to help re-establish a sense of optimism and hope in him.

I honestly feel as though I screwed up by not being more proactive with my friend. I knew he was hurting and didn't do all I could ... I should have done more.

FAX

FAX
07-13-2010, 09:25 PM
The only way a person can truely live is to have Hope. With out hope one may not have reason to live. Look at drugs and alcohol users. Battered woman, or rape victims. living to want to die is not a way live. Tragic happens all the time. last week in a town near by, a husband slaughtered his wife & children, cut them up with a nife, How could a person do that? but how can you get hope if your a family member or friend of the family?

Hope and Love are as important as breathing. I know for me a while back I didn't have hope and I was dead inside I hated my life living in my own hell the pain, untill I got hope then that hope grew into faith and now i got faith and hope to live my life better & with joy in my heart. By the Grace of God.

I couldn't agree more, Mr. Cool han Luke. When hope is lost, all is lost. I firmly believe that suicide is a reaction to the complete loss of all hope ... not even a thread to cling to.

Hope sustains us. Chiefs fans should know that better than anyone.

FAX

FAX
07-13-2010, 09:27 PM
Oh shit, maybe I never thought about it, but what a great idea.

I've been fight cancer for over 2/3 of my life. Chemo, radiation bone marrow transplants, surgeries, no hair, remission, scans and waiting for results. Extended leave of absence at work, scaring the shit out of family and friends, pain and nausia to no end.

But if I were to just kill myself that would mean that I wouldn't get to live tomorrow, and I really really want to.

Dang, Mr. LOCOChief. I bow to your courage, man. I wish I had half your guts.

Well, not half your actual guts or intestines or colon or stuff, but your fortitude. I wish I had half of that.

FAX

KCHawg
07-13-2010, 09:31 PM
With the Chiefs, it seems that hope is all we have.

Sully
07-13-2010, 09:57 PM
With the terminal disease thing... I really don't know the answer to that.

I will say that suicide as a general thing is, IMO, in many cases, a chemical thing. Since about the age of 12 (34 now), I could probably count on my two hands the number of days I've gone without thinking about taking my own life. I don't search out these thoughts. I don't dwell on them. I've rarely even gotten deep enough in the thoughts to visualize details. Just flashes that flutter through my mind.
They have happened in the greatest and worst of times.
I also have those tendencies in my family tree. My mother has "tried" to commit suicide on many occasions. On at least two of them, she has told me about the "attempts" in detail, and blamed me for her trying (one of many reasons I have no relationship with her...). That leads me to believe that it may be a genetic thing... Something that I wouldn't say I struggle with. But dark thoughts that hit me daily.

That said, I wouldn't ever do it. I have the greatest wife, the most amazing daughter, great family, and constant hope for the better things to come. I couldn't put them through the pain suicide would cause. I couldn't miss growing old with my wife. I couldn't imagine not watching my baby girl grow up...

Sorry that's so convoluted. Trying to type out a ton of thoughts on an iPhone gets cumbersome.

KcMizzou
07-13-2010, 09:59 PM
I think the question in the thread title is basically impossible to answer, until you find yourself in that situation. You can speculate on what you think you might do... but you don't really know.

As for leaving family behind, and hurting them... I'm conflicted. Very often, the person in question doesn't have the capacity to make the decision (or more importantly, express their decision) and the family makes the decision for them... when they decide/or are told that all hope is lost.

Frankly, I have no idea what I'd do. I've never experienced that kind of suffering. If those who do, choose to end it... I certainly don't hold it against them.

And, if there is a "God" (and an afterlife), I would hope he (or she..lol) would understand.

FAX
07-13-2010, 10:00 PM
I've been told by people who are supposed to know about these things that suicidal thoughts are normal and natural, Mr. Sully. I don't know if it's true or not, but they say that most people entertain thoughts of suicide on occasion. I think, though, that if a person is having those thoughts daily, that a visit with a professional might be in order. It kind of sounds like a chemical imbalance.

FAX

Sully
07-13-2010, 10:05 PM
I've been told by people who are supposed to know about these things that suicidal thoughts are normal and natural, Mr. Sully. I don't know if it's true or not, but they say that most people entertain thoughts of suicide on occasion. I think, though, that if a person is having those thoughts daily, that a visit with a professional might be in order. It kind of sounds like a chemical imbalance.

FAX

Appreciate it, but it's really not a concern. It's not something I indulge in, and I am in control of my actions, as we all are. It's just these images that seem to haunt me.
I often am in the mood for baklava, as well. But only once have worked up the courage to actually bake some.

KcMizzou
07-13-2010, 10:17 PM
Appreciate it, but it's really not a concern. It's not something I indulge in, and I am in control of my actions, as we all are. It's just these images that seem to haunt me.
I often am in the mood for baklava, as well. But only once have worked up the courage to actually bake some.I don't think it's that unusual. When shit's really, really bad in your life, you're in a "dark" place emotionally... or even... you're massively hung over, and know you have to get up and go to work... it might enter your mind. But it's a fleeting thought... nothing you ever take seriously.

In the end, you carry on... and things get better.

Dave Lane
07-13-2010, 10:30 PM
Talked to a gal I know at the gym today and she said her brother in law called his daughter up on the phone and shot and killed himself while talking to her. Holy chit! That would scar you for life.

ClearmontChief
07-13-2010, 10:31 PM
Well, it could be considered a selfless act to want to spare your family from seeing you waste away little by little every day.

After having been through it, I'll have to call BS on this. "Spare your family"? I'm sorry but it's the ultimate selfish act. You don't consider what effect it will have on your kids, spouse, grandkids, friends. Everyone is left to suffer through the why? and anger.

My wife's Dad did it 11 years ago. My wife hasn't been 'happy' since. She's depressed, has panic attacks, on medicated numb. The only time I see 'her' anymore is the first hour or so in the mornings...before the numbness begins. We don't talk about the future, make no plans, and everything is living in the moment. Our older kids have had anger problems, and conflicted memories of their grandpa. Everyone remembers an angry old man, who ended up putting a 12-gauge to his heart. Of course they know what happened 14 and 9 at the time. Our littlest one has no memories of grandpa. But, he's confused about what happened (we told him an accident with a gun). Why tell him and have to explain it to another one to have to 'deal' with the truth.

He even threatened it, repeatedly. Gambling problems, lose money, and say he was going to do it. Never did...for years. He threatened it again when the money run out. Wife's brother went off on him...told him 'go ahead, do us all a favor'. 2 days later he did it. That's the last thing the brother-in-law said to his dad. Yep, he's F'd up...now an alcoholic with nerves that shakes like an old tractor.

No, he didn't spare his family, he shared whatever his demons were and left them all with his problems. Selfish, mean, hateful act that screwed everyone up.

KcMizzou
07-13-2010, 10:32 PM
Talked to a gal I know at the gym today and she said her brother in law called his daughter up on the phone and shot and killed himself while talking to her. Holy chit! That would scar you for life.Yeah. If your life's rotten and you choose to end it, why not fuck up your daughter's life too. I hope there's a special hell for a guy like that to burn in...

luv
07-13-2010, 10:38 PM
If I ever had a friend commit suicide, I'd be so pissed. I know that, if they've gone that far, they obviously were in a mental state of "no other way out", but knowing that they could have come and asked for any kind of help I could have and would have given them..... It just pisses me off. I'm not sure who I'd be more pissed at. Them for not asking, or me for not making it clear to them that they could come to me with anything.

Phobia
07-13-2010, 10:52 PM
If I ever had a friend commit suicide, I'd be so pissed. I know that, if they've gone that far, they obviously were in a mental state of "no other way out", but knowing that they could have come and asked for any kind of help I could have and would have given them..... It just pisses me off. I'm not sure who I'd be more pissed at. Them for not asking, or me for not making it clear to them that they could come to me with anything.

I'm really glad you saved that one guy's life, Luv.

Groves
07-13-2010, 10:52 PM
no other way out

Let's not confuse "thought there was no way out, but there was" with "there was no way out".

That's all I'm asking.

There's a ton of "it's just selfish" being slung around this thread by people who don't really know what they're talking about. What they do know is that it stinks to have someone end their life. No doubt there are selfish people committing suicide all of the time. It leaves a wake of brokenness and damage to be sure. It's true.

I'm not even pro-suicide. I bristle at the notion that all scenarios are the same, and that "positive thinking" or "enough care for others" or "hope" can make earthly torture tolerable.

It's ok for all of us to admit that we have a breaking point. We do. This fallen world is like that.

Be thankful for every day you're not at that point. Don't sweep under the rug people who don't have that option. Such minimizing is the truly selfish act.

FAX
07-13-2010, 10:57 PM
Appreciate it, but it's really not a concern. It's not something I indulge in, and I am in control of my actions, as we all are. It's just these images that seem to haunt me.
I often am in the mood for baklava, as well. But only once have worked up the courage to actually bake some.

I meant no offense, Mr. Sully. None whatsoever. The furthest thing from it, really.

It's just that brain chemistry is both extremely important and equally fragile. It's amazing, frankly, how sensitive the brain is to the catecholamines that serve as neurotransmitters. There are many and the balance (or lack thereof) among them can have dramatic effects on everything from energy to our thought life. It's funny, really, how people pay attention to their Vitamin C intake but are oblivious to their norepinephrine levels, for example. I've had a crap load of blood tests in my life and not once has any doctor ordered anything that might indicate an imbalance in brain chemistry. It's kind of crazy, honestly.

I do, however, think that when you've been exposed to a suicide by a close friend or family member, it only makes sense that you would think about it more frequently. I know that, in my case, I've thought about it quite a lot ever since my friend did the deed. I can only imagine how much more "front of mind" the concept might be if he had been family. Still and all, since "dark" thoughts can theoretically be erased simply by adjusting certain hormone levels, that seems like something worthy of investigation to me.

FAX

luv
07-13-2010, 11:01 PM
Let's not confuse "thought there was no way out, but there was" with "there was no way out".

That's all I'm asking.

There's a ton of "it's just selfish" being slung around this thread by people who don't really know what they're talking about. What they do know is that it stinks to have someone end their life. No doubt there are selfish people committing suicide all of the time. It leaves a wake of brokenness and damage to be sure. It's true.

I'm not even pro-suicide. I bristle at the notion that all scenarios are the same, and that "positive thinking" or "enough care for others" or "hope" can make earthly torture tolerable.

It's ok for all of us to admit that we have a breaking point. We do. This fallen world is like that.

Be thankful for every day you're not at that point. Don't sweep under the rug people who don't have that option. Such minimizing is the truly selfish act.

There's always someone who can help. However, they are in a state to where they truly believe that death is the only option. I don't think they're being selfish. I just think they're disillusioned.

Brock
07-13-2010, 11:05 PM
After having been through it, I'll have to call BS on this. "Spare your family"? I'm sorry but it's the ultimate selfish act. You don't consider what effect it will have on your kids, spouse, grandkids, friends. Everyone is left to suffer through the why? and anger.


Sorry to hear about your troubles, but I'm talking about terminally ill people who are in great pain constantly every day. Dying.

Groves
07-13-2010, 11:12 PM
There's always someone who can help. However, they are in a state to where they truly believe that death is the only option. I don't think they're being selfish. I just think they're disillusioned.

I'm sure for the situations you have in mind, you're quite right. I didn't mean to focus unduly on your post. You're correct to think that there's ways out for lots of situations.

If you're under the impression that all suffering in life is simply being disillusioned, however, I don't agree.

There's plenty of people who think that there's no way out who are clear thinking and quite rational. It's just part of life, there are some no-win situations. People in those situations tend to receive a lot of "you're just not looking at it right", when they're actually looking at it with a clarity that others have the ability to ignore.

Over-Head
07-13-2010, 11:19 PM
If I was terminaly ill say with cancer, felt like shit everyday and figured i'd be gone in say 3-6 months, yep!
In a hart beat and save the wife and son the agony of watching me suffer.

luv
07-13-2010, 11:28 PM
I'm sure for the situations you have in mind, you're quite right. I didn't mean to focus unduly on your post. You're correct to think that there's ways out for lots of situations.

If you're under the impression that all suffering in life is simply being disillusioned, however, I don't agree.

There's plenty of people who think that there's no way out who are clear thinking and quite rational. It's just part of life, there are some no-win situations. People in those situations tend to receive a lot of "you're just not looking at it right", when they're actually looking at it with a clarity that others have the ability to ignore.

I didn't say they were disillusioned about suffering pain in life. I said they were disillusioned for thinking that there's no way out, or at least help to ease the mental anguish. I just do not see how someone who chooses death over life, outside of painful terminal illness, can be considered to have clarity of thought. Call me naive, closed-minded, whatever.

DaneMcCloud
07-13-2010, 11:42 PM
I'm not trying to throw my religion around, but it is my belief that the only one that can determine life and death is God. If it is his will that I should die, then so be it. However, I believe those that take their own life are sentenced to eternal damnation (I know, there are all sorts of situations that "could" be justified). However, I feel strongly that none of them would be justified in the eyes of the Lord. Therefore, I can't and won't go against His will.

Sorry for the minor rant and possibly sounding like a crazy bible thumper (which I'm actually not).

If you're a tortured soul in this life, why would the Universe automatically mandate that you be a tortured soul in the next life?

If that's how it works, that's some fucked up shit.

Son of Logical
07-13-2010, 11:59 PM
For me, I would never commit active suicide. For example, not going to get depressed and shoot myself, but if I get real sick, and I mean really sick, there is no way in hell I am going to let doctors keep me alive longer then I see myself needed. If your body can not keep itself alive on its own, then I do not really see it as suicide. You are just letting your body take its natural course.

stevieray
07-14-2010, 12:04 AM
way too personal of a subject to share any info..but I can tell you..it ain't cool...and it doesn't get better....it gets tolerable.

lots of honesty in this thread...

GoHuge
07-14-2010, 12:25 AM
A good friend of mine had his little brother kill himself at 16 over a girl. He heard she had been cheating on him from a friend he had been out turkey hunting with all day. When they got done they went over to her house were there was a few other girls hanging out with her. He confronted her about it..........she admitted it............he walked right outside in her driveway, opened his truck door, got his shotgun out, and blew his head off.

I know the kid that was with him and told him that pretty well. He of course blamed himself and it being a small town everyone blamed the girl. They were both riddled with guilt. The guy is actually fine now, but you know it still has to jack with him. The girl ended up overdosing on sleeping pills about a year later. Just a sad sad deal.

I know another kid that was very impressionable as a teen that got into drugs when the friend he idolized started doing it. Went from a normal kid to a zero. He was always awkward, but everyone liked him. He was kind of the class clown type and I know he struggled with self confidence (his last name was Virgin) but a good kid. When he was 19 he and a couple of 17 year olds got busted with some pot. He took the rap for the whole thing, but was terrified about what his dad was going to do when he found out. After being in his cell for 12 hours he hung himself with a bed sheet. How ****ed up is that? I can only imagine what his dad felt like when he was informed of his son going bonkers over what he was going to do when he found out. Never knew his dad to be mean or abusive in any way. Had to just crush him to hear that.

I've thought about suicide several times, but the person it affects the least is you. Everyone left behind is left wondering what they could have done, if they would have done this, or been there for that. The people calling this a selfish act I believe are referring to that point.

Obviously the kid that just went out and killed himself had some serious issues. Maybe even bigger issues for the kid that plotted hanging himself with a bed sheet after being in jail for 12 hours. Most human beings don't react in that extreme when something bad happens. Personally I think suicide with the lack of a mental or terminal illness is the bitch option to take. I was paralyzed waist down 11 years ago and suffer from chronic central nervous pain in my hips, but I live a healthy, normal, productive life and make great money, but my days can really suck sometimes. I couldn't/wouldn't put my family and friends through that because I drew a shitty hand though. IMO if you love the people that love you it's a non-option. Bad things happen to all of us all the time, but how the hell do you take the mental midget course and shatter the lives of your loved ones because you can't handle shit? Calling it a selfish act is a huge understatement.

Oh and for the religious ones remember if your a christian and kill yourself you don't get to fly around and hang out with Jesus in heaven. Killing yourself is an instant deal breaker with him.......which I find kind of ironic since his dad sent him to Earth to take part in a suicide mission to save the sinners, but I digress. If you're a muslim and you kill yourself in Jihad you get to chill with Allah and your 72 virgins.........which I find really sad that a god promises pussy for killing yourself and taking as many infidels with you as possible, but maybe Allah really is akbar? If your a Jew and you kill yourself I think your just screwed. IDK personally I think we're all taking the same dirtnap when we die regardless of how we got there.........just me though. No right or wrong opinions on that subject :)!

bevischief
07-14-2010, 03:42 AM
I fell that hard once, she was way out of my league, lasted a short time, not worth it in the long haul. But you do remember the ride after all these years. Just came across her again on Facebook and time has not been good to her. She makes me look young at this point, and she was younger than me.

Zeke Ziggle
07-14-2010, 06:50 AM
While I personally in no way condone suicide or the actions which lead to it, people calling it a selfish act are looking from the outside. For many who end up taking their life due to depression, they see it as a selfless act and that those around them would be better off without them.

Groves
07-14-2010, 09:26 AM
Oh and for the religious ones remember if your a christian and kill yourself you don't get to fly around and hang out with Jesus in heaven. Killing yourself is an instant deal breaker with him.......which I find kind of ironic since his dad sent him to Earth to take part in a suicide mission to save the sinners, but I digress.

I think you've been misinformed. Do Christians never sin?

Otter
07-14-2010, 09:34 AM
It does sound similar, Mr. Otter. I can tell you this ... if I had it all to do over again, I would make every effort to get my friend over to my house then out and about for a couple of weeks ... anything to help re-establish a sense of optimism and hope in him.

I honestly feel as though I screwed up by not being more proactive with my friend. I knew he was hurting and didn't do all I could ... I should have done more.

FAX

I try to lure him down for a visit quiet a bit. It may be time to start trying more unconventional means.

Thanks Fax

GoHuge
07-14-2010, 10:45 AM
I think you've been misinformed. Do Christians never sin?Everyone sins in the eyes of God if you believe in all that. Not sure what I'm misinformed about unless my sarcasm meter isn't working correctly at the moment.

sparkky
07-14-2010, 10:46 AM
I agree it's a pretty tough question to answer with a yes or no only.

I've watched several of my moms family wind down with cancer and I have come to the conclusion that sometimes the price of life is too high and there is a BIG difference between "living" and "being alive".

there are worse things than death, and sometimes life is one of them.

Jilly
07-14-2010, 11:25 AM
I can only think of one time that I ever contemplated suicide and that was in high school and I was a typical teenage girl.
But, doing what I do, I've found contemplating suicide for most is a pretty normal thing. It's when people have visualized how, what time of day, what to write in the note, and tell someone about the plan that it's more than a fleeting thought

Groves
07-14-2010, 11:32 AM
Everyone sins in the eyes of God if you believe in all that. Not sure what I'm misinformed about unless my sarcasm meter isn't working correctly at the moment.

I thought you were making a case that suicide is some sin that Jesus's death was unable to pay for, and thus automatically sent someone to hell.

JD10367
07-14-2010, 12:17 PM
I only gave it serious consideration once...

http://barrydean.files.wordpress.com/2008/02/david-tyree-catch.jpg

Seriously, though, I don't support the idea unless you have a very terminal, painful, and totally unmanageable illness. So many people throw their lives away, especially when they're young, over stuff that is ultimately stupid. Kids who get bad grades, or break up with their b/f or g/f. People seem to think they have no option, only because they can't clearly see the options. I always say, "If something or someone in life gets you into such a bad place that you think about klling yourself, don't kill yourself... kill them instead, and voila, your problem is solved." :D

Frosty
07-14-2010, 12:22 PM
I only gave it serious consideration once...

http://barrydean.files.wordpress.com/2008/02/david-tyree-catch.jpg


LMAO

I never felt like suicide after a Chiefs loss. However, murder has crossed my mind a few time - Bono, Elliot, Marty Grbac, Robinson...

JD10367
07-14-2010, 12:26 PM
I can tell you one thing: if I ever do it, I swear, just for this place, I'm gonna have unprotected anal sex, then set fire to a tree, drink antifreeze, and crash my car into it.

ChiTown
07-14-2010, 12:37 PM
I can tell you one thing: if I ever do it, I swear, just for this place, I'm gonna have unprotected anal sex, then set fire to a tree, drink antifreeze, and crash my car into it.

Any chance you could attach yourself to nuthooks from the burning tree? TIA

KurtCobain
07-14-2010, 02:55 PM
Suicide becomes the only option when every morning you awake to courtney drooling all over you.
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