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View Full Version : Nat'l Security Illegals get break. Poor old guy gets shaft. Colorado Californicated


HonestChieffan
07-14-2010, 06:24 PM
Thieves could go free while victim faces jail time
Julie HaydenInvestigative Reporter
4:49 AM MDT, July 7, 2010

WHEAT RIDGE, Colo. - Admitted thieves are going free, while an elderly Wheat Ridge man is facing the possibility of spending the rest of his life behind bars, all, he says, for trying to defend his property and his life.

82-year-old Robert Wallace said in February that he looked out his window and saw two men hooking his flatbed trailer up to their pickup. He yelled at them to stop, but they sped away, stealing his trailer. He told police he fired two shots at the pickup.

Minutes later, police say 32-year-old Damacio Torres dropped 28-year-old Alvaro Cardona off at a hospital emergency room with a gunshot wound to the face.

Torres did not stay to talk with police, but they caught up with him later. According to court documents, he admitted he and Cardona stole the trailer.

Wallace did not want to talk on camera, but when we asked him if the two men threatened him he said, "They almost ran me over."

The Jefferson County DA's office said that neither Torres nor Cardona have been charged with anything at this point, even though Torres confessed to the crime. However, the homeowner, Wallace is facing twelve felony counts, including four counts of attempted first degree murder. If convicted, he could spend the rest of his life behind bars.

Sources say Torres and Cardona are believed to be in the country illegally and both have an arrest record. Cardona's record includes public fighting and numerous traffic offenses like driving without a license or insurance. Torres's record includes agricultural trespassing as well as a 2005 arrest for aggravated motor vehicle theft for which he was given a plea bargain to a lesser crime. Sources say Torres is also under investigation for being part of a major auto theft ring.

Wallace is out on bond and due back in court in September to enter his plea.

Neighbors say the thieves should be the ones facing charges and Wallace should be given an award for protecting the neighborhood.


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healthpellets
07-14-2010, 06:28 PM
if he was in imminent bodily harm, then i'm okay with him defending HIMSELF.

if he was just shooting at the back of the truck as it drove away, and he was no longer in harm's way...then it's not okay.

but g'luck to the old man either way.

Rain Man
07-14-2010, 06:34 PM
If he shot and killed an innocent person, then he should get into trouble. He shot a criminal in the course of a crime against him. Give him a medal and let him shoot the other guy.

petegz28
07-14-2010, 09:16 PM
Amazing, the guy admits to stealing the trailer but was set free and not charged. GTFO!

fan4ever
07-14-2010, 09:19 PM
Amazing, the guy admits to stealing the trailer but was set free and not charged. GTFO!

THAT's the clincher...I guess he's suffered enough. If the old man doesn't get jail there will be a civil suit where he gets to pay off his "victim".

petegz28
07-14-2010, 09:31 PM
So the guy is here illegally, admits to stealing the trailer and walks free.


And then some people, Obama, wonder why the majority of Americans are behind the AZ bill???? Gee, I wonder why?

dirk digler
07-14-2010, 09:52 PM
Interesting and a sad story and here is an updated story..

http://blogs.westword.com/latestword/2010/07/robert_wallace_shooting_make_m.php

The Robert Wallace case has all the trademarks of a justice-gone-awry tale. When Wallace, an 81-year-old Wheat Ridge resident, saw two men trying to steal his trailer this past February, he opened fire, hitting one of the men in the head. But the person busted in the shooting's immediate aftermath was Wallace, for attempted murder, while the two suspects in the theft attempt remained free until last week.

Nonetheless, a Wheat Ridge Police rep believes the department has acted properly, despite the "anger and hatred" this turn of events has stirred.
According to the WRPD account, Wallace saw two men, identified as Alvaro Cardona-DeLoera, 28, and Damacio Torres-Ochoa, 32, attempting to hitch his trailer to their red truck. As they fled the scene, with one of the men running alongside the truck before gaining entry to the vehicle's cab, he fired two shots -- although he didn't immediately mention that to police.


<table class="image left" border="0" width="172"><tbody><tr><td>http://blogs.westword.com/latestword/Alvaro%20Cordona-Deloera%20mug%20shot.JPG</td></tr><tr><td class="caption">Alvaro Cordona-DeLoera.

</td></tr></tbody></table>​Cardona-DeLoera was subsequently admitted at a local hospital with a gunshot wound to the head. (His mug shot clearly shows the impact the bullet had upon him.) He'd been dropped off by a red truck, which led WRPD officers to connect the two incidents.

Upon further questioning, Wallace admitted that he'd fired shots at the men, leading to his arrest on attempted murder charges. But Cardona-DeLoera and Torres-Ochoa weren't immediately charged with theft, because the Metropolitan Auto Theft Task Force (MATT) was in the midst of looking into a theft ring that involved trailers, and investigators thought the two men might be involved.

When that didn't prove to be the case, Wheat Ridge authorities charged Cardona-DeLoera and Torres-Ochoa with theft. But Torres-Ochoa was already in hot water with Immigration and Custom Enforcement, whose agents previously busted him on an immigration violation.

This last twist inspired the likes of KHOW's Peter Boyles, a major critic of immigration policy, to pick up the story -- and why not? The contrast between an elderly man defending his property, Gran Torino-style, against the actions of an illegal alien -- and then being prosecuted for his actions -- could hardly be more stark.

Still, WRPD public information officer Lisa Stigall believes that many of the media reports have been "off-base."

Regarding the time gap between Wallace's arrest and that of the two men accused of stealing from him, she says, "attempted murder or any kind of violent crime, regardless of what it is, holds a much higher standard of urgency than theft. And this particular theft was not a violent crime.

"It is unfortunate that people steal from each other, and that these two individuals chose to steal Mr. Wallace's trailer, but what they were doing wasn't a violent crime. And attempted murder -- shooting your weapon, using deadly force against another person -- ranks higher."
<table class="image right" border="0" width="151"><tbody><tr><td>http://blogs.westword.com/latestword/Damacio%20Torres-Ochoa%20mug%20shot.JPG</td></tr><tr><td class="caption">Damacio Torres-Ochoa.

</td></tr></tbody></table>​That's not to mention the role of the task force, which was "looking into the larger picture" regarding thefts of trailers and other vehicles, she allows. "We had probable cause to present to the DA's office to charge Mr. Wallace right upfront. That's what we're sworn to do, and that's what we did. And as soon as we received word from MATT that they wouldn't be including these two in a much larger investigation, we were able to move forward and take the other two individuals into custody."

Stigall adds that both men had originally shown authorities what appeared to be legal Colorado IDs: "We didn't know ICE was involved in this until they took Mr. Torres-Ochoa into custody. That was a surprise to us. If they'd had questionable immigration status when we booked them, the ICE notification would have begun. But neither of these two were booked through us or through a jail. So we hadn't started any of the immigration processes with ICE."

When determining whether Wallace should be charged with attempted murder, Stigall says, "two laws came into play. The first one involved the use of physical force in defense of property, and it says a person can use 'reasonable and appropriate physical force' on someone who you believe is trying to steal from you. But you can only use deadly force in the circumstances of the 'Make My Day' law. And that specifically states that the occupant of a dwelling is justified in using deadly force when a person has made an unlawful entry into the dwelling, and the occupant has reason to suspect that person is going to commit another crime.

"I'm not a lawyer," Stigall acknowledges -- but the DA's office believes "the two laws don't apply in this particular case. Mr. Wallace didn't state to police that he ever felt threatened, and the two individuals were leaving the property."

Wallace has been the recipient of support aplenty due to his status as an octogenarian, but Stigall emphasizes that "the age of a suspect doesn't come into play unless they're under the age of ten. We can't as law enforcement decide that at a certain age, a person doesn't need to be prosecuted for the crimes they commit. It's unfortunate that Mr. Wallace is now affected by his actions, but they're actions he chose to take."
Even so, Stigall implies that even the boys and girls in blue have some sympathy for Wallace's plight.

"Every cop out there takes an oath to uphold the law, regardless of how they personally feel about the law," she says. "That's our job.

"Mr. Wallace has been charged with attempted murder, and we have two thieves in jail -- one of them likely to be permanently damaged by this whole situation that's taken place. So there are really no winners in this case."

petegz28
07-14-2010, 09:59 PM
It's unfortunate that Mr. Wallace is now affected by his actions

Yeah, well, so is the fucking criminal. I get so sick and tired of how our laws make victims out of criminals. I dealt with the shit almost on a daily basis when I worked in the liquor stores. The criminal always has more rights than the victim. So much so that it makes the criminal the victim. I call horseshit. If the fucker wasn't stealing from people he never would have been in the position to be shot. That's my .02 anyway.

RJ
07-14-2010, 10:07 PM
My prediction.....

The old guy will get off, the criminals will be deported and the dude that got shot will look like Flattop for the rest of his life.

Justice will be served but procedure will have to be followed.

notorious
07-14-2010, 10:10 PM
Am I a horrible human-being for not feeling one bit sorry for the guy that took the head shot?

googlegoogle
07-14-2010, 10:25 PM
Anyone want to guess the doctor's bill?

petegz28
07-14-2010, 10:30 PM
Am I a horrible human-being for not feeling one bit sorry for the guy that took the head shot?

Nope. Cause here is the reality of it. The illegal immigrant thief will make out with a shitload on a civil suit and the homeowner will go to prison where no doubt he will die shortly afterwards if he doesn't have a heart attack or stroke out before then.

All because some douchebag was breaking the law to begin with by stealing another person's property.

Like I said, I dealt with this kind of bullshit all the time. Guy comes in the store, sticks a gun in my face, takes all the fucking money and the instant he turns his back to me I can't do a fucking thing because he is no longer deemed a threat to me. Nevermind he just stuck a gun in my face, nevermind he just ran off with the money my Uncle's work so hard for. He has rights, after all. What bullshit.

petegz28
07-14-2010, 10:45 PM
I'll give another example of how the law makes victims out of criminals. I have shared this before but it is worth repeating. My Cousin had a guy come into his liquor store with an 11ft tow chain and a big ole' meathook on the end of it. He told my Cousin to hand over the money or the hook was going in his head. My Cosuin shot him. The City tried to charge my Cousin with excessive force because the guy had a chain and hook, not a gun.

This is how fucked out our legal system has become.

KCHawg
07-15-2010, 12:32 AM
Solution is to move to a state with the "Castle Doctrine" and shoot the fuckers full of holes. Then dispose of the trash as normal curbside.......

CoMoChief
07-15-2010, 12:38 AM
What in the fuck is wrong w/ this country?

Guess what? you don't want to be met with a gun or get shot at??? THEN DON'T TRESPASS ON SOMEONE's PROPERTY ATTEMPTING TO STEAL!!!!!

chiefzilla1501
07-15-2010, 07:04 AM
My prediction.....

The old guy will get off, the criminals will be deported and the dude that got shot will look like Flattop for the rest of his life.

Justice will be served but procedure will have to be followed.

Here's the reality:
-Those guys already have an arrest record, so if they didn't get deported before, why would they get deported now?
-If they get deported, it's going to be expensive to ship them out
-If they go to jail, we the taxpayer have to pay for their prison cell
-Oh by the way, I'm sure that the uninsured guy who got shot in the face had to go to ER and had no way of paying, so we, the honest paying citizen, have to absorb the cost for his free treatment

This is why illegal immigration is such a problem. There are so many ways they are making it more expensive for me to live here because they're freeloading off our system.

Otter
07-15-2010, 08:56 AM
If you were an illegal tell me you wouldn't be thinking "these people deserved to robbed" while shaking your head in disbelief.

Sickening

Garcia Bronco
07-15-2010, 09:24 AM
He's not going to Prison. He won't even get convicted and I love how the shitbag DA is charging him with murder 1. Attempted manslaughter at best.

petegz28
07-15-2010, 09:28 AM
He's not going to Prison. He won't even get convicted and I love how the shitbag DA is charging him with murder 1. Attempted manslaughter at best.

Don't look for this story to hit the MSM anytime soon. Can you imagine what the outcry would be? Particularly with all the AZ stuff going on right now?

The Mad Crapper
07-15-2010, 09:35 AM
Obviously they must have been driving towards him, if one them was shot in the face.

Right?

Hydrae
07-15-2010, 09:38 AM
Anyone want to guess the doctor's bill?

Anyone want to guess who foots that bill?

Garcia Bronco
07-15-2010, 09:46 AM
This is the contact page for the DA of Jefferson County in Colorado.

Send him your civil thoughts on this matter, and be nice.

http://www.co.jefferson.co.us/da/da_T99_R94.htm

Amnorix
07-15-2010, 10:12 AM
It's a standard premise of American law that you can't use deadly force to prevent PROPERTY crimes.

And it has been for like a couple hundred years.

Otter
07-15-2010, 10:13 AM
It's a standard premise of American law that you can't use deadly force to prevent PROPERTY crimes.

And it has been for like a couple hundred years.

What about when they try to run you over while stealing your property? Isn't that assault with a deadly weapon?

petegz28
07-15-2010, 10:14 AM
What about when they try to run you over? Isn't that assault with a deadly weapon?

The fact is, sadly, if he shot at them from behind and they had their backs to him then they posed no threat any longer. It's pretty fucked up because it gives criminals an out.

petegz28
07-15-2010, 10:18 AM
It's a standard premise of American law that you can't use deadly force to prevent PROPERTY crimes.

And it has been for like a couple hundred years.

The whole premise of that is stupid, imo. It's easy for me who is not the victim of a crime to tell someone else who is a victim of a crime to just chill out and let it happen.

Ebolapox
07-15-2010, 10:19 AM
our country is fucked up beyond belief.

Otter
07-15-2010, 10:19 AM
I posted that before reading the whole story...

petegz28
07-15-2010, 10:23 AM
Where do you see he shot them from behind?

From another story "WHEAT RIDGE, Colo. -- An 82-year-old Wheat Ridge homeowner, Robert Wallace, was charged with attempted murder soon after police said he shot at two men stealing a trailer from his property in February.

One of the suspects, 28-year-old Alvaro Cardona-De Lorea, was shot through the eye, leaving him with brain damage and a disfigured skull."

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/24231446/detail.html

Tough to shoot someone in the eye from behind.

I am not saying HE shot them from behind. I should have been more clear. I was just stating the facts about when a threat is "presented" and when it isn't under the eyes of the law.

Amnorix
07-15-2010, 10:24 AM
What about when they try to run you over while stealing your property? Isn't that assault with a deadly weapon?

You can of course use deadly force in self-defense. That's a valid defense. And may be applicable here if the thieves were trying to run him over.

petegz28
07-15-2010, 10:34 AM
You can of course use deadly force in self-defense. That's a valid defense. And may be applicable here if the thieves were trying to run him over.

That's not even always true. A friend of the family served a year in prison for hitting a guy in the head with a tire iron and killing him. It was self defense. But the guy that was attacking him was unarmed. So somehow someone in our wonderful judicial system figured it was excessive.

Donger
07-15-2010, 10:42 AM
They were just taking the trailer that no one else wanted.

petegz28
07-15-2010, 10:43 AM
They were just taking the trailer that no one else wanted.

ROFL

Iowanian
07-15-2010, 12:01 PM
Deport those scumbags and then there won't be anyone here to testify.

notorious
07-15-2010, 12:03 PM
You can of course use deadly force in self-defense. That's a valid defense. And may be applicable here if the thieves were trying to run him over.

Without knowing a single fact, my reaching opinion is that the guy fired at the pickup because he was pissed, not because his life was in danger. The investigation will reveal what angle he shot at and devise a decent theory to prove or disprove his story.

healthpellets
07-15-2010, 03:18 PM
That's not even always true. A friend of the family served a year in prison for hitting a guy in the head with a tire iron and killing him. It was self defense. But the guy that was attacking him was unarmed. So somehow someone in our wonderful judicial system figured it was excessive.

equal or lesser force is allowed in the defense of your body. if, however, your family friend was 5'1" / 135lbs, and his attacker was 6'4" / 250lbs, his use of a tire iron could be argued as justified.

i mean, maybe it's just my legal education, but it seems to make sense. one cannot claim self defense, when one, for example, gains the upper hand in the attack by using a weapon. at that point, he is the aggressor and no longer the victim.

for lack of a better term, "self defense" is very "fluid".

petegz28
07-15-2010, 03:22 PM
]equal or lesser force is allowed in the defense of your body[/B]. if, however, your family friend was 5'1" / 135lbs, and his attacker was 6'4" / 250lbs, his use of a tire iron could be argued as justified.

i mean, maybe it's just my legal education, but it seems to make sense. one cannot claim self defense, when one, for example, gains the upper hand in the attack by using a weapon. at that point, he is the aggressor and no longer the victim.

for lack of a better term, "self defense" is very "fluid".

Not calling you stupid, but that is just stupid. So if I am attacked by someone my size and he is beating the shit out of me I can only fight back with whatever he is using??? Gimme a break already.

Garcia Bronco
07-15-2010, 03:23 PM
equal or lesser force is allowed in the defense of your body. if, however, your family friend was 5'1" / 135lbs, and his attacker was 6'4" / 250lbs, his use of a tire iron could be argued as justified.

i mean, maybe it's just my legal education, but it seems to make sense. one cannot claim self defense, when one, for example, gains the upper hand in the attack by using a weapon. at that point, he is the aggressor and no longer the victim.

for lack of a better term, "self defense" is very "fluid".

But does that take into account psychological state? If someone is attacked and feels threatened, adrenaline starts pumping and other chemicals that alter the mind and muscle.

healthpellets
07-15-2010, 03:26 PM
Not calling you stupid, but that is just stupid. So if I am attacked by someone my size and he is beating the shit out of me I can only fight back with whatever he is using??? Gimme a break already.

you, generally, have the duty to escape the situation in whatever way you can.

for example, if you were getting the shit beat out of you, you could, theoretically, grab a rock and smash his head. if he's dazed or knocked out, you must leave the situation. you cannot become the aggressor and continue to retaliate by smashing his face repeatedly with the rock. that's no longer self-defense. that's aggravated battery.

petegz28
07-15-2010, 03:27 PM
you, generally, have the duty to escape the situation in whatever way you can.

for example, if you were getting the shit beat out of you, you could, theoretically, grab a rock and smash his head. if he's dazed or knocked out, you must leave the situation. you cannot become the aggressor and continue to retaliate by smashing his face repeatedly with the rock. that's no longer self-defense. that's aggravated battery.

Well, that's what this guy did, he cracked him upside the head with the tire iron cause he was getting his ass kicked and it just happened to kill the guy. It isn't like he grabbed the tire iron and started chasing him or beat him to a pulp once the guy was off of him.

healthpellets
07-15-2010, 03:30 PM
Well, that's what this guy did, he cracked him upside the head with the tire iron cause he was getting his ass kicked and it just happened to kill the guy. It isn't like he grabbed the tire iron and started chasing him or beat him to a pulp once the guy was off of him.

sad to hear.

was he convicted by a jury or did he plea?

petegz28
07-15-2010, 03:36 PM
sad to hear.

was he convicted by a jury or did he plea?

That I don't know.

Amnorix
07-15-2010, 03:49 PM
That's not even always true. A friend of the family served a year in prison for hitting a guy in the head with a tire iron and killing him. It was self defense. But the guy that was attacking him was unarmed. So a jury of his peers figured it was excessive.

FYP.

And yes, it's true that you can't use deadly force or a deadly weapon to defend yourself against a non-deadly force attack. The fact-finder, usually a jury of your peers, will decide if your use of deadly force was justified.

And again, NONE of this is remotely new. It's as old as American law.

Amnorix
07-15-2010, 03:57 PM
Without knowing a single fact, my reaching opinion is that the guy fired at the pickup because he was pissed, not because his life was in danger. The investigation will reveal what angle he shot at and devise a decent theory to prove or disprove his story.

You're probably right, in which case he'll go to jail, as he should under American law. Illegals or not, you're nto allowed to decide to shoot to kill someone for stealing your property. The law values life over property.

I remember one famous case in which someone in one of those big square states owned property that had been repeatedly robbed. The property wasn't his main house or he was away alot -- anyway, it was frequently left unattended. So he set up a spring loaded shotgun as a home security system.

Robbers come in, boom.

And the guy was found guilty and went off to jail. Because the law values life over property. Don't like it -- write your Congressman.

Radar Chief
07-15-2010, 04:14 PM
You're probably right, in which case he'll go to jail, as he should under American law. Illegals or not, you're nto allowed to decide to shoot to kill someone for stealing your property. The law values life over property.

I remember one famous case in which someone in one of those big square states owned property that had been repeatedly robbed. The property wasn't his main house or he was away alot -- anyway, it was frequently left unattended. So he set up a spring loaded shotgun as a home security system.

Robbers come in, boom.

And the guy was found guilty and went off to jail. Because the law values life over property. Don't like it -- write your Congressman.

Depends on the state.
Joe Horn in Houston Texas shot and killed two illegals that he saw burglarizing his neighbor’s house and was cleared by grand jury of murder charges.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/hotstories/5864151.html

healthpellets
07-15-2010, 04:54 PM
Depends on the state.
Joe Horn in Houston Texas shot and killed two illegals that he saw burglarizing his neighbor’s house and was cleared by grand jury of murder charges.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/hotstories/5864151.html

texas is it's own little country down there with all sorts of self-defense and property defense laws you won't find in any other state.

the other thing defendants can hope for is jury nullifcation in extreme cases.

KCHawg
07-15-2010, 05:22 PM
Castle Doctrine states allow defense of persons and property. Don't want shot? Leave my shit alone!

petegz28
07-15-2010, 06:24 PM
FYP.

And yes, it's true that you can't use deadly force or a deadly weapon to defend yourself against a non-deadly force attack. The fact-finder, usually a jury of your peers, will decide if your use of deadly force was justified.

And again, NONE of this is remotely new. It's as old as American law.

Someone may wish to inform you and others, I guess, that some guy pounding you in the head with his fists or feet can indeed kill someone or cause severe brain damage.

The Mad Crapper
07-15-2010, 06:26 PM
Someone may wish to inform you and others, I guess, that some guy pounding you in the head with his fists or feet can indeed kill someone or cause severe brain damage.

He tucked his sweater into his pants too tight.

ROFL