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Chocolate Hog
07-18-2010, 02:05 PM
http://www.kansascity.com/2010/07/13/2081872/entertainment-zone-will-need-big.html


Power & Light District will need big subsidies from city
By KEVIN COLLISON
The Kansas City Star

KEITH MYERS | The Kansas City Star
The Power & Light District, where restaurants were busy on Tuesday evening, is still viewed by city leaders as a long-term benefit to downtown despite Tuesday’s news.
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When the city in 2006 approved issuing $295 million in bonds for the downtown entertainment project, it was conceived as a self-sustaining venture. But a delayed opening, the economic downturn and higher-than-expected borrowing costs have meant that so far it has not generated enough revenue to cover debt payments.

“It will probably never fully cover itself,” acting City Manager Troy Schulte told The Kansas City Star in an interview. “We’ve built into all of our long-term projections the assumption of a $10 million to $15 million annual debt subsidy.”

Given Schulte’s estimate, to subsidize the district, developed by the Cordish Co. of Baltimore, city taxpayers would have to shell out at least an extra $230 million by the time the bonds are due in 2033.

Schulte said the subsidy would be built into future budgets, and he and City Councilwoman Deb Hermann said the project, which replaced acres of urban blight, was still a good investment for downtown.

The chief architects of the redevelopment plan, former Mayor Kay Barnes and former City Manager Wayne Cauthen, continue to support the project and are skeptical about the city’s new assumption.

“I would not assume that situation will continue into the future,” Barnes said. “Five or 10 years out, it may look very different and much closer to the earlier projections.”

And the Cordish executive in charge of the district said the company remains bullish on the project.

Schulte, who was not involved in the original Cordish negotiations, said that taxpayers still should be pleased with the investment.

He said much of the money went toward rebuilding crumbling downtown sewers and streets, and the project has greatly improved downtown’s reputation.

“20-20 hindsight is always good, but I’d tell taxpayers to come down and enjoy downtown, because you’re paying for it,” he said.

“The project has benefited the city enormously in a variety of ways and will continue to do so.”

Cauthen, who’s back in Colorado after losing the city manager job in November, was surprised that his successors at City Hall were calculating such dismal long-term financial returns.

“No disrespect to these guys, but I think it would be prudent to speak to the people who put the expectations together,” Cauthen said.

The former city manager said the arrival of a professional franchise at the Sprint Center, the opening of the Kauffman Center for the Performing Arts, a potential new convention hotel and several other unknown variables could mean more business at the Power & Light District and more revenues for the city.

“I agree with the assessment this project was the right thing to do,” Cauthen said. “You never would have had the NAACP in Kansas City the way downtown looked in 2003, or the Big 12 basketball tournament.”

Schulte said he hopes the project will beat the city’s latest projections.

“It’s my hope that an economic recovery and Cordish fully leasing the project will mean that subsidy number goes down,” he said.

The 511,000 square feet of retail space in the Power & Light District is now about 75 percent occupied, according to the city.

Rob Hunden, the Chicago consultant who prepared the revenue projections the city based its assumptions on in 2005, believes that big factors in the shortfall were the delayed opening and continuing vacancies.

The report by C.H. Johnson Consulting assumed that the development would be fully operational with 90 percent occupancy by March 2007 and that it would generate $17.7 million in sales-related tax revenues its first year. Instead, the first two businesses didn’t open until November 2007, and only about a dozen were open by spring 2008.

“The primary assumption going into the analysis was that it would lease up and be completed in the time we estimated, and neither of those things happened,” Hunden said. “The tenants who have opened have performed as projected; the problem is, not enough tenants have opened.”

For their part, city officials are not blaming Cordish for missing the financial projections. They assign the blame to the weak economy, higher-than-expected infrastructure costs and higher-than-expected borrowing costs, again, a factor of the national downturn.

“The deficit is not the result of Cordish,” Schulte said. “They continue to open more retail and restaurants in one of the worst economic conditions the city has ever faced.

“We simply built too much infrastructure on an uncertain revenue stream and optimistic assumptions about the global credit markets.”

Cordish estimated $212 million out of the $295 million in bond proceeds went toward rebuilding the infrastructure in the Power & Light development area. That figure, however, includes two city-owned underground parking garages specifically serving the project.

“This new public infrastructure, which traditionally would have been paid for out of public works, supports the entire downtown, and these expenditures absolutely had to be made if downtown was to continue to be viable,” Nick Benjamin, executive director of the Power & Light District, said in a statement.

The remainder of the bond proceeds went toward developing the project itself. Cordish officials have said their company has invested at least $150 million in the development.

Benjamin also said the project has generated far more tax revenues for the city than have been captured within the development itself for the purpose of repaying the bonds.

“If one includes all the incremental tax benefits that have accrued to the city from the decision to build the district … the Power & Light District is covering not only its own costs, but those of the rebuilt city infrastructure as well.”

Schulte agreed it would likely have cost the city about as much as the annual subsidy if it had issued general obligation bonds to do the infrastructure work.

But the district was touted as being a redevelopment project that would pay for itself, not a long-term obligation of the city.

“I probably would have sold it on the infrastructure component and talked about how a downtown that shut down at 5 p.m. is now almost a 24-hour operation,” Schulte observed.

The continuing subsidy should not require any future cuts in the city budget because, Schulte said, funding has been built into future budget calculations. Still, the subsidy subtracts from money that could be spent on other city needs.

“You might have $10 million or $15 million to do something else,” he said, “but then if you didn’t have the district you might continue to see businesses leave downtown, and there are costs associated with that.”

As for the Kansas City Council, the city manager believes the projected long-term subsidy should not be a surprise.

“I think they see it as an investment that will pay off, maybe not to the general fund, but from an overall community standpoint and to the benefit of downtown,” Schulte said.

Mayor Mark Funkhouser was on vacation and could not be reached for comment.

Hermann, who leads the council’s finance committee, said that while the city analyzed the original deal with “rose-colored glasses,” the project was still worthwhile.

She agreed with the city’s latest projection.

“Regardless of what the projections were, we need to make it a success,” Hermann said. “Over half of that money that was spent went to infrastructure.

“We were projecting just 100 percent coverage on the payments, and that was rose-colored glasses, but that doesn’t mean it was a bad project.

“We should have been more transparent, but then the economy went bad and we should have talked about where the money was going to come from.”

DA_T_84
07-18-2010, 03:28 PM
You spellt "light" wrong, dumbas

tyton75
07-18-2010, 03:29 PM
Seriously.. what is wrong with having a dress code?

Stewie
07-18-2010, 03:31 PM
Building a contrived "place to be" usually doesn't work. I like the P&L district, but it's only on my radar if I'm going down there for something else. That's about 3-4 times per year.

googlegoogle
07-18-2010, 03:40 PM
Seriously.. what is wrong with having a dress code?

Some people would rather have a dead downtown.

Chocolate Hog
07-18-2010, 03:50 PM
Some people would rather have a dead downtown.

Considering there are 1000 other bars in the metro area and the whole thing was built based upon there being a sports team in the Sprint Center I would say the whole thing is a cluster fuck.

KCUnited
07-18-2010, 03:59 PM
Some people would rather have a dead downtown.

I personally miss the '02/'03 downtown.

Bearcat
07-18-2010, 04:12 PM
Eh, the Sprint Center is doing well despite not having an NBA or NHL team, and it's not like the P&L is dead... guess next time they should say f*** it, because you never know when the economy will go into the shitter. I'm not a huge fan, and would rather have a few good drinks at some dive bar than pay $10 for the crap they serve at the P&L, but it's a cool place for live music, and there are some nice places hangout and eat.

DA_T_84
07-18-2010, 04:23 PM
It's actually doing quite well, all things considered. (economy, No sports team yet).

The bars arent hurting at all.

Saul Good
07-18-2010, 04:38 PM
Considering there are 1000 other bars in the metro area and the whole thing was built based upon there being a sports team in the Sprint Center I would say the whole thing is a cluster ****.

It's a big cluster **** except for the part about the Sprint Center being the third busiest arena in the country and the fact that the P&L District has to rent bulldozers to scoop up all the money it's making.

Mojo Jojo
07-18-2010, 04:41 PM
It's actually doing quite well, all things considered. (economy, No sports team yet).

The bars arent hurting at all.

The Sprint Center is drawing more people without a sports team than if they had one. More concerts & special events on key dates and people don't need to purchase season tickets or partial season tickets. This way the amount people spending money to go to one or two events and not blocking out 40 dates a year for a smaller demo leads to greater income.

Chocolate Hog
07-18-2010, 05:21 PM
It's a big cluster **** except for the part about the Sprint Center being the third busiest arena in the country and the fact that the P&L District has to rent bulldozers to scoop up all the money it's making.

Yup so much money that it needs subsidies from the city. Reading is your friend.

ChiefsCountry
07-18-2010, 05:41 PM
The Sprint Center is drawing more people without a sports team than if they had one. More concerts & special events on key dates and people don't need to purchase season tickets or partial season tickets. This way the amount people spending money to go to one or two events and not blocking out 40 dates a year for a smaller demo leads to greater income.

Also it allows a larger demographic base as well than a sports team would.

jiveturkey
07-18-2010, 05:49 PM
I'm not a huge fan, and would rather have a few good drinks at some dive bar than pay $10 for the crap they serve at the P&L, but it's a cool place for live music, and there are some nice places hangout and eat.Where are you paying $10 for a drink down there?

The wife and I routinely visit Flying Saucer for beers/dinner and then hit a movie down there. We're also big fans of the Peach Tree Inn.

Fish
07-18-2010, 05:58 PM
“20-20 hindsight is always good, but I’d tell taxpayers to come down and enjoy downtown, because you’re paying for it,” he said.

Ha... Yeah fuckers, you're already being taxed out the ass for this money pit, you might as well come spend all the rest of your moneys on overpriced shit we offer....

Fish
07-18-2010, 06:03 PM
“20-20 hindsight is always good, but I’d tell taxpayers to come down and enjoy downtown, because you’re paying for it,” he said.

Ha... Yeah fuckers, you're already being taxed out the ass for this money pit, you might as well come spend all the rest of your moneys on overpriced shit we offer....

WoodDraw
07-18-2010, 06:03 PM
When they issued the bonds, the margins were so tight everyone saw this coming. Not exactly something you advertise when you're trying to sell the plan, though.

BWillie
07-18-2010, 06:04 PM
It's actually doing quite well, all things considered. (economy, No sports team yet).

The bars arent hurting at all.

Yeah no kidding its a lot more than I envisioned it to be. I go down there every other weekend at least and drop at least a hunski each time. Its brought me downtown from olathe and I even have friends from nevada, mo and they literally come all they way for pnl. If its not.doing as well as expected then somebody did a bad job forecasting

Saul Good
07-18-2010, 06:06 PM
Yup so much money that it needs subsidies from the city. Reading is your friend.

It needs subsidies because the costs to build everything went over budget and caused the businesses to open much later than expected, not because it's struggling from a revenue perspective.

“If one includes all the incremental tax benefits that have accrued to the city from the decision to build the district … the Power & Light District is covering not only its own costs, but those of the rebuilt city infrastructure as well.”

Bearcat
07-18-2010, 06:11 PM
Where are you paying $10 for a drink down there?

The wife and I routinely visit Flying Saucer for beers/dinner and then hit a movie down there. We're also big fans of the Peach Tree Inn.

The Flying Saucer is cool....

I wandered around there for a few hours Friday night to enjoy the live music... Lucky Strike was $10, the Dueling Piano bar was $8 (iirc), and Shark Bar was $7. After that I went to Stables (which, from the last couple of visits, seems to have become a gay bar) and had by far the best drink of the night for $6.

BWillie
07-18-2010, 06:14 PM
Where are you paying $10 for a drink down there?

The wife and I routinely visit Flying Saucer for beers/dinner and then hit a movie down there. We're also big fans of the Peach Tree Inn.

Its not 10 a drink, he's just exaggerating. I like to go to shark bar and drinks there are probably the highest priced out of any place down there and that would be around 7 dollars. PNL is always packed to shit at least for night life and if you don't like it you probably just don't like meeting new people.

jiveturkey
07-18-2010, 06:15 PM
The Flying Saucer is cool....

I wandered around there for a few hours Friday night to enjoy the live music... Lucky Strike was $10, the Dueling Piano bar was $8 (iirc), and Shark Bar was $7. After that I went to Stables (which, from the last couple of visits, seems to have become a gay bar) and had by far the best drink of the night for $6.I guess that we just don't venture to the bars down there. It's pretty much Flying Saucer or bust for us.

Demonpenz
07-18-2010, 06:21 PM
take a flask to an outside bars before you go to the square. Jeez where is your brain. Or just walk back to the parking lot and drink there, that place is a party itself. No place is really my Scene anymore, but power and light is full of people to meet and yap too.

|Zach|
07-18-2010, 06:54 PM
It isn't really my scene but I think it has been a good thing and a lot of people go. I don't think it has been a negative...it draws a lot of people in.

Bearcat
07-18-2010, 07:34 PM
Its not 10 a drink, he's just exaggerating. I like to go to shark bar and drinks there are probably the highest priced out of any place down there and that would be around 7 dollars. PNL is always packed to shit at least for night life and if you don't like it you probably just don't like meeting new people.

No, I'm not... the Shark Bar was actually the lowest of the 3 places I went Friday night, at $7 for four splashes of alcohol and a cup of sprite, and that doesn't include the cover charge. Lucky Strike was $10, and the bartender even warned me "it is $10, is that okay?"

It's a cool place and I'm not sure why some people are set on hating it (well, excluding billay, who's just here to stir shit anyway), and of course I can always head to a dive bar, drink beer, or just hangout for the music... just sayin'.

Chocolate Hog
07-18-2010, 08:44 PM
No, I'm not... the Shark Bar was actually the lowest of the 3 places I went Friday night, at $7 for four splashes of alcohol and a cup of sprite, and that doesn't include the cover charge. Lucky Strike was $10, and the bartender even warned me "it is $10, is that okay?"

It's a cool place and I'm not sure why some people are set on hating it (well, excluding billay, who's just here to stir shit anyway), and of course I can always head to a dive bar, drink beer, or just hangout for the music... just sayin'.

Did they give you a tissue too? You must be Laz's son.

Valiant
07-18-2010, 09:44 PM
It's actually doing quite well, all things considered. (economy, No sports team yet).

The bars arent hurting at all.

Then these places doing well need to ante up..

I was against the place and its cost on the city..

Who exactly gets the money from the parking and where does it go??

As for the dress code, I agree with it unless they are doing bike night or something similar..

Valiant
07-18-2010, 09:48 PM
No, I'm not... the Shark Bar was actually the lowest of the 3 places I went Friday night, at $7 for four splashes of alcohol and a cup of sprite, and that doesn't include the cover charge. Lucky Strike was $10, and the bartender even warned me "it is $10, is that okay?"

It's a cool place and I'm not sure why some people are set on hating it (well, excluding billay, who's just here to stir shit anyway), and of course I can always head to a dive bar, drink beer, or just hangout for the music... just sayin'.

Yeah I agree.. Have had a few bachelor parties this summer there and it has force me to drink beers just because I do not want to spend 10+ bucks on my 7n7's..

RedNeckRaider
07-18-2010, 10:00 PM
Yeah I agree.. Have had a few bachelor parties this summer there and it has force me to drink beers just because I do not want to spend 10+ bucks on my 7n7's..

$10 for a drink? :eek:

Frazod
07-18-2010, 10:03 PM
$10 for a drink? :eek:

Sounds like the yuppie places in Chicago. Can you imagine paying for yourself AND buying drinks for the tail you're chasing on top of it? Fuck. :shake:

BWillie
07-18-2010, 10:05 PM
Then these places doing well need to ante up..

I was against the place and its cost on the city..

Who exactly gets the money from the parking and where does it go??

As for the dress code, I agree with it unless they are doing bike night or something similar..

Honestly, I don't know what this dress code is. I've never been turned away. You can wear tshirts, jeans, shorts, hats, pretty much whatever. Out of any place I've ever been it has the most lenient dress codes of places that actually have dress codes. You ever been to the voodoo lounge? Much stricter dress code and there's much more if a cultural crowd to.

DA_T_84
07-18-2010, 10:06 PM
A 7&7 is actually 7 bucks; its a premium well. I'm a bartender down there on the weekends....hence my stance :)

RedNeckRaider
07-18-2010, 10:09 PM
Sounds like the yuppie places in Chicago. Can you imagine paying for yourself AND buying drinks for the tail you're chasing on top of it? ****. :shake:

I guess it is the want to be "seen there thing" but paying ten bucks for a drink is rather steep for me. Put me down on the "not wanting to be seen there" list :)

CoMoChief
07-18-2010, 11:43 PM
Seriously.. what is wrong with having a dress code?

"Because it's racist." <==== :rolleyes:
-Black people-

CoMoChief
07-18-2010, 11:46 PM
Honestly, I don't know what this dress code is. I've never been turned away. You can wear tshirts, jeans, shorts, hats, pretty much whatever. Out of any place I've ever been it has the most lenient dress codes of places that actually have dress codes. You ever been to the voodoo lounge? Much stricter dress code and there's much more if a cultural crowd to.

Basically you can't dress like some rap-thug you-know-what from what I can tell. That's what the blacks are having a problem with. With that culture comes violence, more police arrests and crime. Can't say I blame the P&L authorities on this, they don't want it becoming the next Westport.

Phobia
07-18-2010, 11:52 PM
The first time I'd been was when I walked through there a couple of weeks ago at lunch while on Jury duty.

DaneMcCloud
07-19-2010, 12:17 AM
A 7&7 is actually 7 bucks; its a premium well. I'm a bartender down there on the weekends....hence my stance :)

I can't get a non-alcoholic drink at ANY club or restaurant in Los Angeles for $7 dollars or less.

Consider yourselves lucky.

:D

Chocolate Hog
07-19-2010, 12:20 AM
The first time I'd been was when I walked through there a couple of weeks ago at lunch while on Jury duty.

Whatd you think of it?

Phobia
07-19-2010, 12:35 AM
Whatd you think of it?

Looks nice. Nobody was there so, I really have no real opinion.

|Zach|
07-19-2010, 01:37 AM
It has been a while since even black groups have raised hell about the dress code it seems, maybe I am missing something but it just seems to be a non issue these days.

Most the time if I am there it is because I am hired to do photos for one of the establishments...but it doesn't really fail that there are drunk people having fun shoulder to shoulder. The bars to ok for themselves...the fact that they HAVE a photography budget shows that but thats not the only story of the overall health of the district. Like I said it really isn't my scene but I think it has been a huge positive...

I go to lunch in the area often because the studio is about 2 blocks away. Just because some people really hang there because it isn't their cup of tea doesn't make it a failure.

Deberg_1990
07-19-2010, 06:27 AM
Would anyone really prefer blocks of crumbling old buildings and parking lots to a nice entertainment area and arena? Some of you guys kill me.

Mojo Jojo
07-19-2010, 07:25 AM
Would anyone really prefer blocks of crumbling old buildings and parking lots to a nice entertainment area and arena? Some of you guys kill me.

I think almost everyone wanted development downtown. The problems from day one were:
The way the development was to be financed and the payback period. Most people didn't believe those were realistic numbers and time line, at guess what those people were right.
The city brought in Cordish, a company that has a history of going over budget and not meeting deadlines on these type of projects. Guess what; they went over budget and didn't meet the promised opening date.
Most people are just upset at the way this has been handled from day one...typical KCMO.

The next big hurdle will be in about two years when the first set of leases come up...how many will renew and how much turnover will happen. This is currently going on at the Legends...many companies couldn't afford to renew leases and there are several available store fronts. In fact the Legends is now repositioning themselves as an outlet shopping area.

PunkinDrublic
07-19-2010, 10:36 AM
Would anyone really prefer blocks of crumbling old buildings and parking lots to a nice entertainment area and arena? Some of you guys kill me.

Where else are we supposed to score heroin and cheap hookers.

sedated
07-19-2010, 10:46 AM
Honestly, I don't know what this dress code is. I've never been turned away. You can wear tshirts, jeans, shorts, hats, pretty much whatever. Out of any place I've ever been it has the most lenient dress codes of places that actually have dress codes. You ever been to the voodoo lounge? Much stricter dress code and there's much more if a cultural crowd to.

I thought I read something that said P&L got rid of the dress code, at least most of it.

I agree on Voodoo, only time I've ever been there they were turning away about 25% because of improper shoes.

Chief Henry
07-19-2010, 10:54 AM
It has been a while since even black groups have raised hell about the dress code it seems, maybe I am missing something but it just seems to be a non issue these days.

Most the time if I am there it is because I am hired to do photos for one of the establishments...but it doesn't really fail that there are drunk people having fun shoulder to shoulder. The bars to ok for themselves...the fact that they HAVE a photography budget shows that but thats not the only story of the overall health of the district. Like I said it really isn't my scene but I think it has been a huge positive...

I go to lunch in the area often because the studio is about 2 blocks away. Just because some people really hang there because it isn't their cup of tea doesn't make it a failure.

Whitlock will be on it fast...

Saul Good
07-19-2010, 12:52 PM
I think almost everyone wanted development downtown. The problems from day one were:
The way the development was to be financed and the payback period. Most people didn't believe those were realistic numbers and time line, at guess what those people were right.
The city brought in Cordish, a company that has a history of going over budget and not meeting deadlines on these type of projects. Guess what; they went over budget and didn't meet the promised opening date.
Most people are just upset at the way this has been handled from day one...typical KCMO.

The next big hurdle will be in about two years when the first set of leases come up...how many will renew and how much turnover will happen. This is currently going on at the Legends...many companies couldn't afford to renew leases and there are several available store fronts. In fact the Legends is now repositioning themselves as an outlet shopping area.I was at Legends yesterday and didn't notice any vacancies. Haven't they always been outlet stores? How is that different?

P&L is great for the city. It gives people somewhere to go besides the plaza. In 10 years, nobody's going to remember that it opened late, but it will still be one of the top entertainment districts in the country.

If you want to bitch about KC, go with the schools or the stadiums or the airport or the roads or the city council. Legends and P&L are two of the biggest successes the city has ever had.

jiveturkey
07-19-2010, 01:02 PM
I was at Legends yesterday and didn't notice any vacancies. Haven't they always been outlet stores? How is that different?

P&L is great for the city. It gives people somewhere to go besides the plaza. In 10 years, nobody's going to remember that it opened late, but it will still be one of the top entertainment districts in the country.

If you want to bitch about KC, go with the schools or the stadiums or the airport or the roads or the city council. Legends and P&L are two of the biggest successes the city has ever had.I too thought that the Legends was an outlet mall.

That area could use more office complexes and housing. I've heard that they have staffing problems due to the fact that there aren't a lot of people that live out in that area. The restaurants have had some turnover in that area as well, which was due to a lack of lunch biz.

I still think it's a great development and the new stadium and casino will only help.

KCUnited
07-19-2010, 01:08 PM
I saw back to back store vacancies at Legends 2 weeks ago and even commented to my wife about it.

|Zach|
07-19-2010, 01:32 PM
Whitlock will be on it fast...

Do you actually read his columns lately. It might mess up your knee jerk view of the world.

Mojo Jojo
07-19-2010, 01:47 PM
I was at Legends yesterday and didn't notice any vacancies. Haven't they always been outlet stores? How is that different?

P&L is great for the city. It gives people somewhere to go besides the plaza. In 10 years, nobody's going to remember that it opened late, but it will still be one of the top entertainment districts in the country.

If you want to bitch about KC, go with the schools or the stadiums or the airport or the roads or the city council. Legends and P&L are two of the biggest successes the city has ever had.

I don't think you understand what I said. As for The Legends...it started as part outlet/part retail and the business plan was to limit the outlet side. When the leases started expiring many of retail spots didn't or couldn't re-up, so there has been a lot of turnover at the Legends...hence the change in plans to go after more outlet stores. I'm not calling The Legends a failure in fact that developer was able to payoff obligations early unlike Cordish who is asking for more money.
If you know anything about Cordish you will understand that in three years there will be a fair amount of turnover in the P&L, and new clients will need to come in to fill those spots. It is their track record. I just pointed out that hiring Cordish was a big mistake by KCMO. While many will forget that it didn't open on time KCMO tax payers are going to remember for a long time that the project went way over budget and no one was held accountable. On the flip side KCMO teaming up with AEG was/is a great partnership.
I like the Legends. I go there often. P&L not really my scene at night, but it was fun during the Big XII Tourney and the World Cup.

Chocolate Hog
07-19-2010, 02:14 PM
Would anyone really prefer blocks of crumbling old buildings and parking lots to a nice entertainment area and arena? Some of you guys kill me.

A downtown stadiumn would have been much better.

Mojo Jojo
07-19-2010, 02:40 PM
A downtown stadiumn would have been much better.

A downtown Stadium would have been nice, but you will still need to build/create a taxpayer funded entertainment area. If you look at the downtown stadiums with strong development around the stadium...all taxpayer funded such as St. Louis and Baltimore.

|Zach|
07-19-2010, 02:45 PM
A downtown Stadium would have been nice, but you will still need to build/create a taxpayer funded entertainment area. If you look at the downtown stadiums with strong development around the stadium...all taxpayer funded such as St. Louis and Baltimore.

You mean the Cordish development right by the stadiums in Baltimore?

http://www.powerplantlive.com/

kcchiefsus
07-19-2010, 02:45 PM
I guess it is the want to be "seen there thing" but paying ten bucks for a drink is rather steep for me. Put me down on the "not wanting to be seen there" list :)

Your not paying $7 a drink if you get a beer or a well drink. You can get any of those for $4 a drink. Sure its more than I would prefer to spend but it isn't $10 a drink.

Mojo Jojo
07-19-2010, 03:00 PM
You mean the Cordish development right by the stadiums in Baltimore?

http://www.powerplantlive.com/

Yes, and Cordish also did a lot of the development in the inner harbor back in the day. That is how they made their name...they are a Baltimore company. I don't know how often you go to Baltimore, but I am there two or three times a year, and the turnover in the inner harbor is unbelievable. Outside of the ESPN Zone and a couple of other restaurants I don't think many originals are still there.

Chocolate Hog
07-19-2010, 03:23 PM
You mean the Cordish development right by the stadiums in Baltimore?

http://www.powerplantlive.com/

Hey Zach hows the KC economy doing? Are you going to argue that Cordish hasnt hurt the KC economy? Westport says whats up.

|Zach|
07-19-2010, 03:33 PM
Hey Zach hows the KC economy doing? Are you going to argue that Cordish hasnt hurt the KC economy? Westport says whats up.

Westport, another place there are tons of people at every time I go that way. Kelly's has been hurt pretty bad. But they do fine during peak times and always do really well during the fall after football games and what not. That deck new deck they have is awesome...

McCoys...Foundry...always people there.

My favorite place Harry's...always people there...

The area does well for itself during lunch.

I would say the hardest hit by P+L is 810 Zone. Even with some places hardest hit...the death of a lot of Kansas City places has been greatly exaggerated.

Grinders...does great business still...

The Phoenix...great business its packed even when they charge for music...

Iowanian
07-19-2010, 03:43 PM
Yup so much money that it needs subsidies from the city. Reading is your friend.


How much is the city bringing in with sales tax on concerts, food and drinks in the area, in addition to property taxes on those facilities in P&L, and other ancillary income from fuel tax, hotel tax, permits, parking tickets etc?

Mojo Jojo
07-19-2010, 03:49 PM
Westport, another place there are tons of people at every time I go that way. Kelly's has been hurt pretty bad. But they do fine during peak times and always do really well during the fall after football games and what not. That deck new deck they have is awesome...

McCoys...Foundry...always people there.

My favorite place Harry's...always people there...

The area does well for itself during lunch.

I would say the hardest hit by P+L is 810 Zone. Even with some places hardest hit...the death of a lot of Kansas City places has been greatly exaggerated.

Grinders...does great business still...

The Phoenix...great business its packed even when they charge for music...

The difference is that the places you list have built businesses on their own...they were not subsidized by tax payer dollars for start up. I think that a lot of local businesses resent losing money to the city's publicly funded pet project.

Chocolate Hog
07-19-2010, 03:51 PM
Westport, another place there are tons of people at every time I go that way. Kelly's has been hurt pretty bad. But they do fine during peak times and always do really well during the fall after football games and what not. That deck new deck they have is awesome...

McCoys...Foundry...always people there.

My favorite place Harry's...always people there...

The area does well for itself during lunch.

I would say the hardest hit by P+L is 810 Zone. Even with some places hardest hit...the death of a lot of Kansas City places has been greatly exaggerated.

Grinders...does great business still...

The Phoenix...great business its packed even when they charge for music...

You listed 3 bars in Westport out of how many? A place like Barleys closed because of PNL. The point is there were a handful of other bar districts PNL wasn't nessecary at all and the long term sustainability is questionable.

Chocolate Hog
07-19-2010, 03:52 PM
How much is the city bringing in with sales tax on concerts, food and drinks in the area, in addition to property taxes on those facilities in P&L, and other ancillary income from fuel tax, hotel tax, permits, parking tickets etc?

Apparently not much if the city is having to pay 10-15 per year.

|Zach|
07-19-2010, 03:53 PM
The difference is that the places you list have built businesses on their own...they were not subsidized by tax payer dollars for start up. I think that a lot of local businesses resent losing money to the city's publicly funded pet project.

Yes. I understand that. But the idea that Westport and other places are now ghost towns just is not the case.

At the end of the day P+L has been good for this city. It isn't my scene for nightlife but I like what it has done and it has been good for my business personally. Hell, the P+L space was used a few weeks ago in a great way to pretty much seal KC's bid as a host city for the World Cup which will be a huge financial gain for the city.

It has done a lot of good things directly and indirectly.

|Zach|
07-19-2010, 03:54 PM
You listed 3 bars in Westport out of how many? A place like Barleys closed because of PNL. The point is there were a handful of other bar districts PNL wasn't nessecary at all and the long term sustainability is questionable.

I think you are taking the narrow view.

Sweet Daddy Hate
07-19-2010, 03:58 PM
Meh. I'm going to the Blarney Stone for some reasonable drinks and shuffleboard, bitchhh...

RJ
07-19-2010, 03:59 PM
Yes, and Cordish also did a lot of the development in the inner harbor back in the day. That is how they made their name...they are a Baltimore company. I don't know how often you go to Baltimore, but I am there two or three times a year, and the turnover in the inner harbor is unbelievable. Outside of the ESPN Zone and a couple of other restaurants I don't think many originals are still there.


ESPN Zone closed a few weeks ago, along with 4-5 more in other cities.

Chocolate Hog
07-19-2010, 04:01 PM
I think you are taking the narrow view.

Nah I just think things could be better. For example Westport is 1000000X better than PNL but howcome you can bring your beer outside at PNL but not at Westport? It's bullshit how much the rules are changed for PNL.

|Zach|
07-19-2010, 04:05 PM
Nah I just think things could be better. For example Westport is 1000000X better than PNL but howcome you can bring your beer outside at PNL but not at Westport? It's bullshit how much the rules are changed for PNL.

Meh, its just business and politics. It just is what it is...it doesn't bother me that much. Some businesses are adapting just fine. More so P+L took a lot of the dbags out of Westport...I like the crowds there more now than I used to it also brings money in from people from JOCO and other suburbs who wouldn't come within 100 ft of Westport because they believe the myth that it is really dangerous.

Chocolate Hog
07-19-2010, 04:08 PM
Meh, its just business and politics. It just is what it is...it doesn't bother me that much. Some businesses are adapting just fine. More so P+L took a lot of the dbags out of Westport...I like the crowds there more now than I used to it also brings money in from people from JOCO and other suburbs who wouldn't come within 100 ft of Westport because they believe the myth that it is really dangerous.

Thats a good point about the douchebags. I was there Friday and realized there wasn't many douchebags. Yea the myth about Westport being dangerous is funny, though I did see 3 cop cars speeding towards Main St. and The ghetto bird. Juco folks aren't used to that.

RedNeckRaider
07-19-2010, 04:09 PM
Your not paying $7 a drink if you get a beer or a well drink. You can get any of those for $4 a drink. Sure its more than I would prefer to spend but it isn't $10 a drink.

I was going by what someone posted. I worked in Atlanta back in 2002 and the going rate for a beer was $5.50 at couple of the places we went to. I left sober :)

|Zach|
07-19-2010, 04:13 PM
I don't remember drink prices being really out of hand. Of course I don't drink all that much so when I do it isn't a big issue. I think a single wide IPA bottle was 5 and change or something after I would get done shooting at the piano bar. Which seemed fair enough for a premium domestic.

Mojo Jojo
07-19-2010, 04:16 PM
ESPN Zone closed a few weeks ago, along with 4-5 more in other cities.

Another Cordish project going down the drain. Damn, now I need to find more new things to do in Baltimore.

RJ
07-19-2010, 04:23 PM
Another Cordish project going down the drain. Damn, now I need to find more new things to do in Baltimore.

I don't think it was Cordish. I believe most of the ESPN Zones around the country were closed.

Mojo Jojo
07-19-2010, 04:25 PM
Yes. I understand that. But the idea that Westport and other places are now ghost towns just is not the case.

At the end of the day P+L has been good for this city. It isn't my scene for nightlife but I like what it has done and it has been good for my business personally. Hell, the P+L space was used a few weeks ago in a great way to pretty much seal KC's bid as a host city for the World Cup which will be a huge financial gain for the city.

It has done a lot of good things directly and indirectly.

I'm not saying it is not doing good things for the city; I'm saying that so far it has been a financial debacle for the tax payers because of the city and Cordish. The Legends developer paid off debt early...Cordish is asking for more. If it was so successful in revenue then the debt would get paid down...not increased. At some point someone needs to be held accountable. With the Sprint Center was built there was a budget and once the money was gone it was gone and AEG was on the hook. No such deal with Cordish about P&L. AEG couldn't double dip...why should Cordish?

RedNeckRaider
07-19-2010, 04:26 PM
I don't remember drink prices being really out of hand. Of course I don't drink all that much so when I do it isn't a big issue. I think a single wide IPA bottle was 5 and change or something after I would get done shooting at the piano bar. Which seemed fair enough for a premium domestic.

I think anyone who goes to a fancy place or a trendy place expects to pay higher prices. The club scene is not my thing. If I am in one it is a southend place where I can throw darts. They can draw a rougher crowd but if you are a southender they most likely know you and there won't be any trouble. Late at night it can get a little rowdy but nowdays I am gone by then :) You can get Bud, Coors and the like for around $2.25 to $2.75 and call drinks around $3.50 to 4.00~

|Zach|
07-19-2010, 04:31 PM
I think anyone who goes to a fancy place or a trendy place expects to pay higher prices. The club scene is not my thing. If I am in one it is a southend place where I can throw darts. They can draw a rougher crowd but if you are a southender they most likely know you and there won't be any trouble. Late at night it can get a little rowdy but nowdays I am gone by then :) You can get Bud, Coors and the like for around $2.25 to $2.75 and call drinks around $3.50 to 4.00~

I don't particularly think P+L is fancy or trendy...it is just where people like to go. It isn't really about being seen but more so I want this certain drink and I want to be in a certain place.

The places I like to go to personally are pretty varied...some nice some not so much.

Mojo Jojo
07-19-2010, 04:33 PM
I don't think it was Cordish. I believe most of the ESPN Zones around the country were closed.

But inner harbor and the complex the ESPN Zone was in are Cordish developments. I said earlier that Cordish developments have a history of high turnover. While Cordish may not have been the final reason it just goes to show that they get big flashy national name places to attract crowds, and at some point the new wears off and pow...empty space. That is going to be a lot of square footage to fill.

RJ
07-19-2010, 04:43 PM
But inner harbor and the complex the ESPN Zone was in are Cordish developments. I said earlier that Cordish developments have a history of high turnover. While Cordish may not have been the final reason it just goes to show that they get big flashy national name places to attract crowds, and at some point the new wears off and pow...empty space. That is going to be a lot of square footage to fill.


When I lived in Baltimore the only time I ever went to those places was when we had company from out of town. I think that's true for most of the natives. With fewer tourists you can probably look forward to more turnover.

Iowanian
07-19-2010, 04:46 PM
Apparently not much if the city is having to pay 10-15 per year.


I think you have shit in your pants, but that's only because it's near where you keep your brains most of the time

Mojo Jojo
07-19-2010, 04:53 PM
When I lived in Baltimore the only time I ever went to those places was when we had company from out of town. I think that's true for most of the natives. With fewer tourists you can probably look forward to more turnover.

That is part of my point when it is new it is cool for locals to go. Then after awhile it becomes old, and you only go for special events or when friends or families come to town. P&L is never going to be more popular than it is right now. For all the regulars...five years from now you won't be. It is a basic business truth when it comes to destination locations in a city.
The same holds true for sports teams and new stadiums. Year one and two large crowds and a lot of excitement, but if the product isn't good and the newness wears off attendance goes way down. Look at the Nationals and their new stadium. Hard to get in year one...now you can count the people in the stands on most nights.

Saul Good
07-19-2010, 05:14 PM
You listed 3 bars in Westport out of how many? A place like Barleys closed because of PNL. The point is there were a handful of other bar districts PNL wasn't nessecary at all and the long term sustainability is questionable.

Have you ever been to the Plaza? Those places turn over constantly. That's the way retail goes.

Saul Good
07-19-2010, 05:18 PM
Apparently not much if the city is having to pay 10-15 per year.

That was always going to be the case. The P&L is basically bringing in as much money as they could possibly hope to bring in. The city knew that it was going to have to subsidize it because of the overwhelming nature of the project.

Normal bars don't have to pay to build parking garages and redo streets in addition to paying their rent. I just listened to an interview with the Funk, and he said as much. He know going in that this was going to happen.

You can give a kid $1,000,000 to build a lemonade stand and tell him to pay you back the money over 30 years, but he's never going to sell enough lemonade to pay the bill. Even if the kid has 50 people in line 24 hours a day, the math just doesn't work. That doesn't mean that the lemonade stand isn't doing well. It just means that the expectations were ridiculous.

WilliamTheIrish
07-19-2010, 05:33 PM
You listed 3 bars in Westport out of how many? A place like Barleys closed because of PNL. The point is there were a handful of other bar districts PNL wasn't nessecary at all and the long term sustainability is questionable.


billay,

The bars in Westport have always turned over. I've been through the thick and thin in Westport and in those times I can thing of a maybe 5 places that have stood the test of time.

Bar business has always been that way. The overwhelming majority of failed businesses in Westport would have failed with or without P&L.

WilliamTheIrish
07-19-2010, 05:34 PM
What Saul said.

Mojo Jojo
07-19-2010, 05:35 PM
That was always going to be the case. The P&L is basically bringing in as much money as they could possibly hope to bring in. The city knew that it was going to have to subsidize it because of the overwhelming nature of the project.

Normal bars don't have to pay to build parking garages and redo streets in addition to paying their rent. I just listened to an interview with the Funk, and he said as much. He know going in that this was going to happen.

You can give a kid $1,000,000 to build a lemonade stand and tell him to pay you back the money over 30 years, but he's never going to sell enough lemonade to pay the bill. Even if the kid has 50 people in line 24 hours a day, the math just doesn't work. That doesn't mean that the lemonade stand isn't doing well. It just means that the expectations were ridiculous.

Funny thing Saul...when I posted that the numbers and payback were wrong from the beginning, and most people knew they were unrealistic. You got on my case for questioning the P&L...while all I was questioning was the bill of goods sold to the public. Now you post, and it backs up what I said. Pick a position dude.

Saul Good
07-19-2010, 05:36 PM
Funny thing Saul...when I posted that the numbers and payback were wrong from the beginning, and most people knew they were unrealistic. You got on my case for questioning the P&L...while all I was questioning was the bill of goods sold to the public. Now you post, and it backs up what I said. Pick a a position dude.

link?

Mojo Jojo
07-19-2010, 05:40 PM
link?

http://chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=230835&page=4

RJ
07-19-2010, 05:46 PM
That is part of my point when it is new it is cool for locals to go. Then after awhile it becomes old, and you only go for special events or when friends or families come to town. P&L is never going to be more popular than it is right now. For all the regulars...five years from now you won't be. It is a basic business truth when it comes to destination locations in a city.
The same holds true for sports teams and new stadiums. Year one and two large crowds and a lot of excitement, but if the product isn't good and the newness wears off attendance goes way down. Look at the Nationals and their new stadium. Hard to get in year one...now you can count the people in the stands on most nights.

Speaking of stadiums, the harbor area would likely be doing much better if the Orioles were a contending team.

Mojo Jojo
07-19-2010, 05:51 PM
Speaking of stadiums, the harbor area would likely be doing much better if the Orioles were a contending team.

One of the big risks you take when you develop around a team or venue. That is one reason why it is better for the P&L not have a sports team at Sprint Center. In Houston around Minute Maid most of the development failed and most of the bars in the area are only open on game day.

Saul Good
07-19-2010, 06:02 PM
http://chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=230835&page=4

That post had nothing to do with the numbers being unrealistic. That post said that it's been great for the city, and I stand by that. The city went into this knowing that they were going to have to subsidize some of it. That doesn't make the district a failure.

The city is much better off now than it was 5 years ago. Without the P&L, this city doesn't sniff an All-Star game. Without the P&L, this city isn't even in the discussion for hosting a World Cup event.

The P&L District and the Legends Shopping Center are 2 of the best things this city has to offer.

The Chiefs and Royals both suck, and they are located out in the middle of nowhere. (How sad is it that they are on the short list of "positives" for the city.

Worlds of Fun and Oceans of Fun are fine, but they are in the middle of nowhere.

The casinos are fine, but they are in the middle of nowhere.

The Plaza is cool.

What else is there? If you take away P&L and the development going on around the Legends (Cabellas, Great Wolfe Lodge, Dave & Busters, the Speedway, Community America Ballpark, the Wizards' Stadium, Nebraska Furniture Mart, Chateau Avalon, Schlitterbahn, Shopping, Dining, etc.), you are left with an arena with no tenant in the middle of a ghost town, and a bunch of marginal activities (Plaza notwithstanding) in the middle of nowhere.

It is unfathomable to me that, out of everything that Kansas City has done wrong over the years, that you are trying to call out the Legends and the P&L district as failures.

ChiefsCountry
07-19-2010, 06:12 PM
First of all an average bar is open 5 years then closes. That is just how it is in that industry.

Mojo Jojo
07-19-2010, 06:14 PM
That post had nothing to do with the numbers being unrealistic. That post said that it's been great for the city, and I stand by that. The city went into this knowing that they were going to have to subsidize some of it. That doesn't make the district a failure.

The city is much better off now than it was 5 years ago. Without the P&L, this city doesn't sniff an All-Star game. Without the P&L, this city isn't even in the discussion for hosting a World Cup event.

The P&L District and the Legends Shopping Center are 2 of the best things this city has to offer.

The Chiefs and Royals both suck, and they are located out in the middle of nowhere. (How sad is it that they are on the short list of "positives" for the city.

Worlds of Fun and Oceans of Fun are fine, but they are in the middle of nowhere.

The casinos are fine, but they are in the middle of nowhere.

The Plaza is cool.

What else is there? If you take away P&L and the development going on around the Legends (Cabellas, Great Wolfe Lodge, Dave & Busters, the Speedway, Community America Ballpark, the Wizards' Stadium, Nebraska Furniture Mart, Chateau Avalon, Schlitterbahn, Shopping, Dining, etc.), you are left with an arena with no tenant in the middle of a ghost town, and a bunch of marginal activities (Plaza notwithstanding) in the middle of nowhere.

It is unfathomable to me that, out of everything that Kansas City has done wrong over the years, that you are trying to call out the Legends and the P&L district as failures.

But my original post had everything to do with the numbers, and what was sold to the tax payers. You saw it as an attack on an entertainment district. As I pointed out we all wanted this, but knew the numbers weren't real. Is it so wrong to hold the government and developer accountable for tax dollars? It seems KCK/Wyandotte County and The Legends developer understood their rules...AEG understood the rules...why not Cordish?

If Clark and Mr. Glass came back and asked for more tax dollars because they went over or didn't factor in certain things when they agreed to a price and signed the deal would you be so forgiving?

I think that an entertainment district can do many positives for a city, but history shows that it won't last at the current level.

ChiefsCountry
07-19-2010, 06:16 PM
Nah I just think things could be better. For example Westport is 1000000X better than PNL but howcome you can bring your beer outside at PNL but not at Westport? It's bullshit how much the rules are changed for PNL.

Its bc the inside of PNL is private owned area where in Westport you are walking out into a Kansas City street.

Saul Good
07-19-2010, 06:27 PM
But my original post had everything to do with the numbers, and what was sold to the tax payers. You saw it as an attack on an entertainment district. As I pointed out we all wanted this, but knew the numbers weren't real. Is it so wrong to hold the government and developer accountable for tax dollars? It seems KCK/Wyandotte County and The Legends developer understood their rules...AEG understood the rules...why not Cordish?

If Clark and Mr. Glass came back and asked for more tax dollars because they went over or didn't factor in certain things when they agreed to a price and signed the deal would you be so forgiving?

I think that an entertainment district can do many positives for a city, but history shows that it won't last at the current level.

Are you suggesting that the city didn't pony up for the Chiefs and Royals?

Saul Good
07-19-2010, 06:30 PM
Its bc the inside of PNL is private owned area where in Westport you are walking out into a Kansas City street.

They also used to allow people to carry beers through the streets of Westport on Friday or Saturday nights. They roped off the bar area and charged $1 admission. Guess who complained about that. I'll give you a hint. Now, they complain about P&L.

Mojo Jojo
07-19-2010, 06:38 PM
Are you suggesting that the city didn't pony up for the Chiefs and Royals?

Actually it was the county. The city is looking to back out of their deal with the teams that was just a handshake not a true contract.
I'm just saying that if Clark and Mr. Glass wanted more because they didn't follow the agreement should the tax payer be on the hook for more money or should the owners?

CHENZ A!
07-19-2010, 06:48 PM
blah blah blah, if you don't like P&L don't go there. I have crossover style, I kick it anywhere.

Saul Good
07-19-2010, 06:57 PM
Actually it was the county. The city is looking to back out of their deal with the teams that was just a handshake not a true contract.
I'm just saying that if Clark and Mr. Glass wanted more because they didn't follow the agreement should the tax payer be on the hook for more money or should the owners?

The city vouched for the debt for the P&L. Period, end of story.

Everyone involved knew what the costs would be. If the city didn't agree to take on the overage, this never would have been built. The city is better off because it was.

Mojo Jojo
07-19-2010, 07:20 PM
The city vouched for the debt for the P&L. Period, end of story.

Everyone involved knew what the costs would be. If the city didn't agree to take on the overage, this never would have been built. The city is better off because it was.

So the city makes a bad deal out of panic and tax payers should just say OK?
In an earlier post you said I should complain about the schools, roads and City Council. Well I am complaining about the City Council, and maybe these overages could have been used to repair roads or upgrade schools. I hope you are happy that the tax payers are paying more and more so you have a place to go while the rest of the city has to cut back on resources...police, fire, waste pickup, schools/teachers and many other things.

By the way you still haven't answered my question about Clark and Mr. Glass.

Dinny Blues
07-19-2010, 07:21 PM
Would anybody be interested in booking a traditional blues band in any of these joints for 15%?

PM me.

Dinny

Saul Good
07-19-2010, 07:32 PM
So the city makes a bad deal out of panic and tax payers should just say OK?
In an earlier post you said I should complain about the schools, roads and City Council. Well I am complaining about the City Council, and maybe these overages could have been used to repair roads or upgrade schools. I hope you are happy that the tax payers are paying more and more so you have a place to go while the rest of the city has to cut back on resources...police, fire, waste pickup, schools/teachers and many other things.

By the way you still haven't answered my question about Clark and Mr. Glass.

The city didn't make a bad deal. The city made a deal that required spending a relatively small amount of money that benefits the entire city.

What's to answer about Clark Hunt and David Glass? There was an agreement in place to increase taxes in order to spend $425,000,000 of public money on the stadiums.

The P&L District had an agreement in place in which the city would be liable for the portion of the debt that couldn't be repaid by Cordish.

In both cases, the deals were kept. I will go on record as saying that the money spent on the P&L District in downtown Kansas City was a much better investment than the $425,000,000 of money spent on refurbishing a couple of stadiums in Raytown.

According to the article, $212 million out of the $295 million went toward rebuilding the infrastructure in the Power & Light development area. In other words, the city got $212,000,000 worth of upgrades to it's downtown excluding the businesses. You can't say the same thing for the stadium boondoggle.

Extra Point
07-19-2010, 07:40 PM
Hey, Billay! What do you do for excitement, rub two sticks together? Keep your stick to yourself!

Chocolate Hog
07-19-2010, 08:26 PM
I think you have shit in your pants, but that's only because it's near where you keep your brains most of the time

Comig from a man who lives in a trailer park in Iowa this means alot.

Iowanian
07-19-2010, 09:18 PM
Billaaaaaay's have SOULS!!!! MAD!!!

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Valiant
07-19-2010, 10:52 PM
Honestly, I don't know what this dress code is. I've never been turned away. You can wear tshirts, jeans, shorts, hats, pretty much whatever. Out of any place I've ever been it has the most lenient dress codes of places that actually have dress codes. You ever been to the voodoo lounge? Much stricter dress code and there's much more if a cultural crowd to.

Used to go years back and I agree with Voodoo.. I do not have a reason why the Voodoo does not get critiqued for it..

BWillie
07-19-2010, 11:05 PM
Meh, its just business and politics. It just is what it is...it doesn't bother me that much. Some businesses are adapting just fine. More so P+L took a lot of the dbags out of Westport...I like the crowds there more now than I used to it also brings money in from people from JOCO and other suburbs who wouldn't come within 100 ft of Westport because they believe the myth that it is really dangerous.

Uhh...I've seen people literally get shot at in Westport in the summer. I don't know how the violence is now, but I can tell you before PNL it was terrible. I saw cops having to break up huge fights all the time. People getting arrested all over. PNL has much more people than Westport and at least from first glance, I'm sure there is less crime per capita there.

Guru
07-19-2010, 11:33 PM
I don't even go there unless I am going to the Sprint Center for a concert. I won't even waste my money on the overpriced drinks there.

|Zach|
07-20-2010, 12:32 AM
Uhh...I've seen people literally get shot at in Westport in the summer. I don't know how the violence is now, but I can tell you before PNL it was terrible. I saw cops having to break up huge fights all the time. People getting arrested all over. PNL has much more people than Westport and at least from first glance, I'm sure there is less crime per capita there.

Oh hey, a JOCO'er telling someone who lives and works at a place what that place is like.

Does random violence happen? Yes. Absolutely it does. This is an urban area. Not just a city like in Kansas where you string together a few Old Navy's and a TGI Fridays and call it a day.

A good friend of mine was the victim of random violence in KC...he was shot...miracle he lived. It does happen.

However for the most part people wind up in bad situations because they put themselves in those situations or made bad decisions being around people they shouldn't be around.

The idea that there are not as many fights in P+L is silly. There is all kinds of Ed Hardy v. Ed Hardy douche bag fights. News about violence that happens on the outer edge of P+L is usually not as widely known.

Westport is a great place to hang out and have a few drinks. Most of the loud mouth shit faced drunk drivers like yourself go to P+L now. Thanks.

Sweet Daddy Hate
07-20-2010, 11:37 AM
If PNL cleared the mousse-headed douchebags and KU Med rejects the fuck out of Westport, then all the better.
And FTR; the only time Westport was even remotely dangerous was back in the Harris House days when Dale Carter was brandishing weapons about. But even then, that did not stop ROR from rocking the stage and partying 100-times harder than you.

Thx/Bye!

Chocolate Hog
07-20-2010, 01:18 PM
If PNL cleared the mousse-headed douchebags and KU Med rejects the **** out of Westport, then all the better.
And FTR; the only time Westport was even remotely dangerous was back in the Harris House days when Dale Carter was brandishing weapons about. But even then, that did not stop ROR from rocking the stage and partying 100-times harder than you.

Thx/Bye!

ROFL

Extra Point
07-21-2010, 08:00 PM
If PNL cleared the mousse-headed douchebags and KU Med rejects the **** out of Westport, then all the better.
And FTR; the only time Westport was even remotely dangerous was back in the Harris House days when Dale Carter was brandishing weapons about. But even then, that did not stop ROR from rocking the stage and partying 100-times harder than you.

Thx/Bye!

This, from a guy whose BBQ bean recipe starts with canned baked beans!

MadMax
07-21-2010, 09:02 PM
Oh hey, a JOCO'er telling someone who lives and works at a place what that place is like.

Does random violence happen? Yes. Absolutely it does. This is an urban area. Not just a city like in Kansas where you string together a few Old Navy's and a TGI Fridays and call it a day.

A good friend of mine was the victim of random violence in KC...he was shot...miracle he lived. It does happen.

However for the most part people wind up in bad situations because they put themselves in those situations or made bad decisions being around people they shouldn't be around.

The idea that there are not as many fights in P+L is silly. There is all kinds of Ed Hardy v. Ed Hardy douche bag fights. News about violence that happens on the outer edge of P+L is usually not as widely known.

Westport is a great place to hang out and have a few drinks. Most of the loud mouth shit faced drunk drivers like yourself go to P+L now. Thanks.




My cousin who chose to be homeless was murdered camping below the River Quay, I know this isn't in the same area but close enough. They crushed his head with cinder blocks :( KC is a lot less violent than bigger cities. I personally loved Westport as a young 20 something person :)

Sweet Daddy Hate
07-22-2010, 01:53 AM
This, from a guy whose BBQ bean recipe starts with canned baked beans!

So you have a problem with Bobby Bell? Because this is what you're saying to me.:hmmm:

Sweet Daddy Hate
07-22-2010, 01:57 AM
My cousin who chose to be homeless was murdered camping below the River Quay, I know this isn't in the same area but close enough. They crushed his head with cinder blocks :( KC is a lot less violent than bigger cities. I personally loved Westport as a young 20 something person :)

JFC, dude...:(

DaneMcCloud
07-22-2010, 02:08 AM
KC is a lot less violent than bigger cities.

Absolutely fucking bullshit.

Kansas City is consistently in the top ten of violent crimes and murder per capita each and every year.

Kansas City is more than twice the national average in nearly every criminal and violent crime rating in America.

http://www.cityrating.com/citycrime.asp?city=Kansas+City&state=MO

Sweet Daddy Hate
07-22-2010, 02:54 PM
Absolutely fucking bullshit.

Kansas City is consistently in the top ten of violent crimes and murder per capita each and every year.

Kansas City is more than twice the national average in nearly every criminal and violent crime rating in America.

http://www.cityrating.com/citycrime.asp?city=Kansas+City&state=MO

Phoenix is a raging cesspool of meth heads, murderers, and wife-beaters.

BWillie
07-22-2010, 03:14 PM
Absolutely ****ing bullshit.

Kansas City is consistently in the top ten of violent crimes and murder per capita each and every year.

Kansas City is more than twice the national average in nearly every criminal and violent crime rating in America.

http://www.cityrating.com/citycrime.asp?city=Kansas+City&state=MO

Truth. I'd like to see them compare metropolitan areas as a whole though instead of just the city. Even though there is a huge huge difference depending on what part of the area you are in, it would be interesting if they judged by MSA. It may be that KC's inner city is just much more violent than some cities on the coasts inner cities. For some reason most of the most violent cities in the country are in the midwest. IE - Cleveland, Detroit, KC, Memphis (close enough), St Louis.

Mojo Jojo
07-22-2010, 07:19 PM
Did any of you see Ruckus this evening? P&L was the lead topic...the liberals and the conservatives agreed we needed downtown development but the tax payers are getting screwed because the numbers were wrong to begin with. Someone pointed out that when the newer bonds due in 20-years, independent audits say there is a good chance the district still will not be able to pay off the debt.
Also discussed...the Funk was city auditor when this came up and he said the numbers were bad, but the city council ignored his suggestions and went with Cordish's numbers.
They also went out of the way to point out that Sprint Center and P&L are two different projects...funded two different ways. Sprint Center done right...P&L screw the tax payer.

Chocolate Hog
07-22-2010, 09:05 PM
Did any of you see Ruckus this evening? P&L was the lead topic...the liberals and the conservatives agreed we needed downtown development but the tax payers are getting screwed because the numbers were wrong to begin with. Someone pointed out that when the newer bonds due in 20-years, independent audits say there is a good chance the district still will not be able to pay off the debt.
Also discussed...the Funk was city auditor when this came up and he said the numbers were bad, but the city council ignored his suggestions and went with Cordish's numbers.
They also went out of the way to point out that Sprint Center and P&L are two different projects...funded two different ways. Sprint Center done right...P&L screw the tax payer.

No shit. How many distrcts last 20+ years? Whats Ruckus?

Mojo Jojo
07-22-2010, 09:14 PM
No shit. How many distrcts last 20+ years? Whats Ruckus?

Ruckus is a local PBS round table show that deals with current issues...most local, some regional and a few national. Think The McLaughlin Group on a local scene. The panel is two conservatives, two liberals and a moderate (swing vote).
This is one of the few times I've seen all 5 agree on a topic. Good idea...poor execution by the city.

Saul Good
07-22-2010, 09:30 PM
Ruckus is a local PBS round table show that deals with current issues...most local, some regional and a few national. Think The McLaughlin Group on a local scene. The panel is two conservatives, two liberals and a moderate (swing vote).
This is one of the few times I've seen all 5 agree on a topic. Good idea...poor execution by the city.

It's stupid to expect an entertainment venue to be self-sustaining when close to 80% of the capital is used to build infrastructure. It's not like they put it out in the middle of nowhere, either. They put it downtown. What does that say about our city planners?

This would be like Lamar Hunt and Ewing Kaufman being required to pave I-70 and Blue Ridge when the stadiums were built and then build an airport for the teams to fly in and out of.

Bearcat
07-22-2010, 09:41 PM
Absolutely ****ing bullshit.

Kansas City is consistently in the top ten of violent crimes and murder per capita each and every year.

Kansas City is more than twice the national average in nearly every criminal and violent crime rating in America.

http://www.cityrating.com/citycrime.asp?city=Kansas+City&state=MO

http://crime.kansascity.com is a good visual... the worst I've dealt with is my car getting broken into a couple of times, and I agree with the idea that a lot can be said about keeping yourself out of bad situations, but at the same time it's discouraging to see that map light up over even a small 6 month timeframe for burglaries, armed robberies, etc... and the map only shows KCMO.

Mojo Jojo
07-22-2010, 09:42 PM
It's stupid to expect an entertainment venue to be self-sustaining when close to 80% of the capital is used to build infrastructure. It's not like they put it out in the middle of nowhere, either. They put it downtown. What does that say about our city planners?

This would be like Lamar Hunt and Ewing Kaufman being required to pave I-70 and Blue Ridge when the stadiums were built and then build an airport for the teams to fly in and out of.

Point is Cordish got a great deal...the City Council screwed up and when the Funk brought up the problems as the city auditor...no one paid attention. Now, according to auditors it will take at least another 20 years to pay off the debt. This from a city cutting public services (jobs) every quarter and is still over budget.

KC native
07-22-2010, 09:53 PM
Absolutely fucking bullshit.

Kansas City is consistently in the top ten of violent crimes and murder per capita each and every year.

Kansas City is more than twice the national average in nearly every criminal and violent crime rating in America.

http://www.cityrating.com/citycrime.asp?city=Kansas+City&state=MO

Yup, one of the biggest changes in moving from KC to Fort Worth was the attitude towards violence. KC is a violent city. Fort Worth, OTOH, is a cupcake city. Parts of Dallas are comparable to KC but the overall it's much easier to live in than KC.

Halfcan
07-22-2010, 10:04 PM
kc cant afford schools but they can fund this place??

what a joke

Bearcat
07-22-2010, 10:30 PM
Yup, one of the biggest changes in moving from KC to Fort Worth was the attitude towards violence. KC is a violent city. Fort Worth, OTOH, is a cupcake city. Parts of Dallas are comparable to KC but the overall it's much easier to live in than KC.

Please elaborate.

Fairplay
07-23-2010, 07:51 AM
Like someone else said I don't go out of my way to go downtown. 3-4 times a year. The city already gets 1 percent of my earnings right off the top.

Fairplay
07-23-2010, 07:51 AM
Please elaborate.



Maybe he lives in the inner city.

jiveturkey
07-23-2010, 08:19 AM
http://crime.kansascity.com is a good visual... the worst I've dealt with is my car getting broken into a couple of times, and I agree with the idea that a lot can be said about keeping yourself out of bad situations, but at the same time it's discouraging to see that map light up over even a small 6 month timeframe for burglaries, armed robberies, etc... and the map only shows KCMO.The amount of stolen cars and home burglaries in the last year was also pretty surprising.

Sweet Daddy Hate
07-23-2010, 07:03 PM
I'll walk down any fucking street in KC at night. Phoenix? Not so much.

BWillie
07-23-2010, 07:15 PM
I'll walk down any ****ing street in KC at night. Phoenix? Not so much.

http://www.walletpop.com/insurance/most-dangerous-neighborhoods/

You might want to reconsider your position w/ 2 of the top 6 most dangerous neighborhoods being in Kansas City. None in the top 25 in Phoenix..

Sweet Daddy Hate
07-23-2010, 07:23 PM
http://www.walletpop.com/insurance/most-dangerous-neighborhoods/

You might want to reconsider your position w/ 2 of the top 6 most dangerous neighborhoods being in Kansas City. None in the top 25 in Phoenix..

Then I'll say it:

The baselines you people are using are a complete fucking crock written by idiots.

MadMax
07-23-2010, 07:49 PM
I'll walk down any ****ing street in KC at night. Phoenix? Not so much.



I've done it, not as scary as people would lead you to believe. In KC that is. I slept under bridges, I camped by the river and went into all black bars often and I'm still alive. Granted most of this was in the 80's

MadMax
07-23-2010, 07:55 PM
Absolutely ****ing bullshit.

Kansas City is consistently in the top ten of violent crimes and murder per capita each and every year.

Kansas City is more than twice the national average in nearly every criminal and violent crime rating in America.

http://www.cityrating.com/citycrime.asp?city=Kansas+City&state=MO



I have little experience living in other cities so I'm saying it's all I know. Doesn't make it BS Dane. It has it's problems but oh well I lived there for 28 years and did some stupid shit but I have no bullet holes or knife wounds.

BWillie
07-23-2010, 08:00 PM
I've done it, not as scary as people would lead you to believe. In KC that is. I slept under bridges, I camped by the river and went into all black bars often and I'm still alive. Granted most of this was in the 80's

Actually violent crime has declined significantly since the 1980's. So it was worse back then when you were sleeping under bridges.

MadMax
07-23-2010, 08:13 PM
Actually violent crime has declined significantly since the 1980's. So it was worse back then when you were sleeping under bridges.



LOL! Now that I'm older I'd prefer not to have to sleep under a bridge :) However I would take life experience over polls or surveys any day.

Chocolate Hog
07-23-2010, 10:19 PM
Phoenix is #2 in kid nappings in the world. The bullshit people come up with to make KC seem dangerous is fucking hilarious.

Sweet Daddy Hate
07-25-2010, 02:11 PM
Phoenix is #2 in kid nappings in the world. The bullshit people come up with to make KC seem dangerous is fucking hilarious.

And our meth trade is flourishing!

"Phoenix: We spin you round and round, baby"!:thumb: WOOT! ELEVENTYBILLION OUNCES!!!!!11111TTSFTW!

Saul Good
07-25-2010, 02:55 PM
Then I'll say it:

The baselines you people are using are a complete ****ing crock written by idiots.

You're right. What does the FBI know about keeping crime statistics?



Crime Rates Kansas City, Missouri Phoenix, Arizona United States
Violent Crime 7 7 4

The crime indices range 1-10. A higher number corresponds with more crime. Our crime rates are based on FBI data.

http://www.bestplaces.net/crime/?city1=52938000&city2=50455000

Sweet Daddy Hate
07-25-2010, 02:57 PM
You're right. What does the FBI know about keeping crime statistics?



Crime Rates Kansas City, Missouri Phoenix, Arizona United States
Violent Crime 7 7 4

The crime indices range 1-10. A higher number corresponds with more crime. Our crime rates are based on FBI data.

http://www.bestplaces.net/crime/?city1=52938000&city2=50455000

They've certainly done a crack job finding Bin Laden.

Saul Good
07-25-2010, 02:58 PM
Try typing "murder" into google and see what happens by the time you get to "murd".

The suggestion pops up as "murders in kansas city 2010".

Saul Good
07-25-2010, 02:59 PM
They've certainly done a crack job finding Bin Laden.

The FBI is hunting Bin Laden?

Sweet Daddy Hate
07-25-2010, 05:30 PM
The FBI is hunting Bin Laden?

Is he on the ten most wanted?

Brock
07-25-2010, 05:33 PM
Try typing "murder" into google and see what happens by the time you get to "murd".

The suggestion pops up as "murders in kansas city 2010".

Are you around kansas city? Because I think google knows where you are and tries to guess for local search.

BWillie
07-25-2010, 05:38 PM
Are you around kansas city? Because I think google knows where you are and tries to guess for local search.

Correct.

Reaper16
07-25-2010, 05:38 PM
Kansas City is absolutely one of the most violent cities in America. The vast, vast majority of it is minority-on-minority, so most of us will never have to worry about it (for better or worse).

Saul Good
07-25-2010, 06:59 PM
Are you around kansas city? Because I think google knows where you are and tries to guess for local search.

That makes sense.