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View Full Version : Chiefs Larry Fitzgerald believes in D-Bowe


KCrockaholic
07-21-2010, 12:53 PM
Fitz on Twitter

Bowe should put up Huge numbers this year in KC.He's been working his tail off up here RT @larryemcdaniel: How is Bowe doing training w/ u?"

Sounds good if a top 3 WR in the game is applauding Bowe.

rambleonthruthefog
07-21-2010, 01:09 PM
guess i 'll draft him in my fantasy league then.

Red Brooklyn
07-21-2010, 01:09 PM
I'm all for it. He's overdue. But "should" and "will" are two very different things.

Here's hopin'.

Sofa King
07-21-2010, 01:22 PM
http://footballusa.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/hays.jpg

http://www.inzernet.com/images/product_shots/stickumlrg.jpg

Hog Farmer
07-21-2010, 01:37 PM
Bowe put up huge numbers his first two years and would have had another 1000 yarder last year were it not for the suspension. If this is the year he's truly dedicated his commitment as Haley requires of his players then he really should have a huge year. I expect it and look forward to watching him play.

I just hope Cassel improves enough to get him the ball !

CoMoChief
07-21-2010, 01:39 PM
Won't matter if Cassel shits the bed and can't get him the ball.

Same w/ Fitz if ARZ decides to let Leinart start behind center.

Micjones
07-21-2010, 01:41 PM
While this is good news... I'm not sure that what's happening on the field, physically, is what's kept him from becoming an elite WR.

Maturity and concentration are what he lacks.
If his work with Fitz addresses his being a more mature football player who has elite focus then...this is GREAT news.

Tribal Warfare
07-21-2010, 01:41 PM
Bowe put up huge numbers his first two years and would have had another 1000 yarder last year were it not for the suspension. If this is the year he's truly dedicated his commitment as Haley requires of his players then he really should have a huge year. I expect it and look forward to watching him play.

I just hope Cassel improves enough to get him the ball !


Which is the reason why he won't have better numbers no matter how well he improves.

Hog Farmer
07-21-2010, 01:44 PM
While this is good news... I'm not sure that what's happening on the field, physically, is what's kept him from becoming an elite WR.

Maturity and concentration are what he lacks.
If his work with Fitz addresses his being a more mature football player who has elite focus then...this is GREAT news.


When you become dedicated as Fitz says he has , I would think maturity and concentration go hand in hand with it.

greg63
07-21-2010, 01:45 PM
He's just being nice.

Bowe seems to do fine as long as he is blanketed by two or three defenders with his toes straddling the line between the out-of-bounds and the field of play bringing the ball in from the fingertips of a single outstretched hand while jumping through a flaming hoop, farting the Star Spangled Banner and doing his taxes; all while going after a pass that is not even meant for him.

-King-
07-21-2010, 01:49 PM
Won't matter if Cassel shits the bed and can't get him the ball.

Same w/ Fitz if ARZ decides to let Leinart start behind center.

He had 1000 yard seasons with Huard and Thigpen throwing him the ball and with Solari and Gailey as OCs. I think he can hav better numbers with Weis and Cassel.
Posted via Mobile Device

Pants
07-21-2010, 01:49 PM
He's just being nice.

Yeah, do people really expect him to tweet back saying "Yeah, don't expect much out of Bowe"?

Pants
07-21-2010, 01:49 PM
Bowe seems to do fine as long as he is blanketed by two or three defenders with his toes straddling the line between the out-of-bounds and the field of play bringing the ball in from the fingertips of a single outstretched hand while jumping through a flaming hoop, farting the Star Spangled Banner and doing his taxes all while going after a pass that is not even meant for him.

LMAO

Red Brooklyn
07-21-2010, 01:50 PM
He had 1000 yard seasons with Huard and Thigpen throwing him the ball and with Solari and Gailey as OCs. I think he can hav better numbers with Weis and Cassel.
Posted via Mobile Device
Absolutely he can. Indeed, he should. But there's that word again...

greg63
07-21-2010, 01:51 PM
Yeah, do people really expect him to tweet back saying "Yeah, don't expect much out of Bowe"?

Exactly.

Chocolate Hog
07-21-2010, 01:52 PM
Kendrell Bell body slammed an offensive linemen at camp he'll be a good linebacker this year.

KCrockaholic
07-21-2010, 02:03 PM
He's just being nice.

Bowe seems to do fine as long as he is blanketed by two or three defenders with his toes straddling the line between the out-of-bounds and the field of play bringing the ball in from the fingertips of a single outstretched hand while jumping through a flaming hoop, farting the Star Spangled Banner and doing his taxes; all while going after a pass that is not even meant for him.

Ok, that last part brings back funny memories.

boogblaster
07-21-2010, 02:36 PM
I hope BO-SHO can have a good year ...

CHENZ A!
07-21-2010, 02:48 PM
I believe.
Posted via Mobile Device

Goldmember
07-21-2010, 02:55 PM
He's just being nice.

Bowe seems to do fine as long as he is blanketed by two or three defenders with his toes straddling the line between the out-of-bounds and the field of play bringing the ball in from the fingertips of a single outstretched hand while jumping through a flaming hoop, farting the Star Spangled Banner and doing his taxes; all while going after a pass that is not even meant for him.

LOL My thoughts EXACTLY! Yet he drops the balls standing still and defenders are 20 yards away. Lack of concentration.

CupidStunt
07-21-2010, 03:01 PM
He's a legit 1300/10 talent, but he needs to prove his commitment to being that guy. We haven't seen it yet, though the natural talent has shone through a fair bit.

It's a shame really because there are some anchor-type players on the offense with Charles, Albert and Bowe. Guys have to step up and earn their money.

chiefzilla1501
07-21-2010, 03:03 PM
I wonder how much we overrate his first and second seasons. For several reasons. First, Tony Gonzalez was getting double-teamed and often times triple teamed, which basically meant Bowe was a #2 receiver behind a dominant #1.

The other thing that really strikes me is how often I see highlights where Bowe makes a sensational catch with virtually no separation. I don't see a lot of plays where he jukes a defender out of his shorts. A few things concern me about that. The first is that there are a lot of routes that may be out of his arsenal--it seems like he runs mostly nine routes to the outside or quick screens or slants. The second is that it almost seems like the QB always has to make a perfect throw in order for Bowe to be able to go up and get it.

Am I alone here?

Mr. Laz
07-21-2010, 03:10 PM
Which is the reason why he won't have better numbers no matter how well he improves.
so that's a lock?

Tribal Warfare
07-21-2010, 03:12 PM
so that's a lock?

It's difficult to get excited about the passing game with Cassel as QB, because he is what he is.

Mr. Laz
07-21-2010, 03:15 PM
It's difficult to get excited about the passing game with Cassel as QB, because he is what he is.
not getting excited is a helluva lot different than saying Bowe won't ever have better numbers with Cassel at QB.

we'll see

CoMoChief
07-21-2010, 03:17 PM
He had 1000 yard seasons with Huard and Thigpen throwing him the ball and with Solari and Gailey as OCs. I think he can hav better numbers with Weis and Cassel.
Posted via Mobile Device

Thigpen out of the gun is better than Cassel.

Marcellus
07-21-2010, 03:18 PM
It's difficult to get excited about the passing game with Cassel as QB, because he is what he is.

Before I opened the thread I guessed 5 posts in before Cassel was brought up and that was it.

Yea Cassel is much worse than Thigpen and Huard. No chance he could go for 1,000 + yards.

Nevermind that Chambers had 600 in 9 games last year with the shit offense we were running.

Marcellus
07-21-2010, 03:19 PM
Thigpen out of the gun is better than Cassel.

Is that why we won 2 games?

Tribal Warfare
07-21-2010, 03:27 PM
Before I opened the thread I guessed 5 posts in before Cassel was brought up and that was it.

Yea Cassel is much worse than Thigpen and Huard. No chance he could go for 1,000 + yards.

Nevermind that Chambers had 600 in 9 games last year with the shit offense we were running.


The same mighty Cassel who threw for 84 yards and 1 INT in the Denver game, yeah he instills confidence

TRR
07-21-2010, 03:28 PM
It's difficult to get excited about the passing game with Cassel as QB, because he is what he is.

Why exactly wouldn't Cassel be able to get Bowe the ball? The constant criticism of Cassel is his deep ball, however Bowe isn't a deep threat so what's the problem? Cassel didn't have trouble finding Chambers for 600 yards in 9 games...
Posted via Mobile Device

Marcellus
07-21-2010, 03:41 PM
The same mighty Cassel who threw for 84 yards and 1 INT in the Denver game, yeah he instills confidence

Since you are going to use his worst game, can I say no the guy who threw for 331 with 2 TD's and 0 Int's against Cleavland or 23-39 for 262 2 td's 0 Ints against Jacksonville?

How about the guy who threw for 400 against teh Jets in 2008? It's all right here. you can chose to focus on the can't rather than teh can if you want.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/gamelog?playerId=8644&sYear=2008

I choose to give the guy at least the start of this season before I make a decision on his ceiling.

milkman
07-21-2010, 03:46 PM
Since you are going to use his worst game, can I say no the guy who threw for 331 with 2 TD's and 0 Int's against Cleavland or 23-39 for 262 2 td's 0 Ints against Jacksonville?

How about the guy who threw for 400 against teh Jets in 2008? It's all right here. you can chose to focus on the can't rather than teh can if you want.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/gamelog?playerId=8644&sYear=2008

I choose to give the guy at least the start of this season before I make a decision on his ceiling.

Pick one, dammit!

KCrockaholic
07-21-2010, 03:54 PM
Cassel will never be worth 60 mil...But like I've said before, I'm giving 2 years to show that he is worthy of being a decent QB. I think he will be fantastic this year with a better offense. Maybe not 4,000 yards, but probably in the 3,500-3,800 range.

OnTheWarpath58
07-21-2010, 03:55 PM
Pick one, dammit!

Yeah, preferably not the one where he "picked apart" a secondary that was starting a WR.

Oh, wait. That was his only 300 yard game.

Drat.

Tribal Warfare
07-21-2010, 03:56 PM
Why exactly wouldn't Cassel be able to get Bowe the ball? The constant criticism of Cassel is his deep ball, however Bowe isn't a deep threat so what's the problem? Cassel didn't have trouble finding Chambers for 600 yards in 9 games...
Posted via Mobile Device


yet when the running game got better Cassel got worse, Cassel was near bottom in QB efficiency department which get gets me more revved up than being judge at a supermodel BJ contest.

Ralphy Boy
07-21-2010, 04:04 PM
Hypothetical: If Cassel comes out this season and passes for 3,500 yards with a 2-1 TD/INT ratio and we go 8&8, will everyone here still say he sucks and give credit to Weis/Jones/McCluster/Moeaki?

I'll throw my ridiculous predictions here:
Cassel = 3,300 yards 18 TD's 13 INT's
Charles = 275 carries, 1430 yards 5.2 avg w/50 catches 400 yards and a total of 10 TD's
Jones = 145 carries, 600 yards 4.1 avg w/7 TD's
McCluster = 25 carries, 125 yards 5.0 avg w/2 TD's & 30 catches 1 TD
Bowe = 80 catches, 1040 yards 13 avg w/5 TD's
Chambers = 60 catches 900 yards 15 avg w/4 TD's
Moeaki = 8 catches, 3 TD's and 135 yards in the first game; followed by separated vaginal gland which ends his playing career.

OnTheWarpath58
07-21-2010, 04:10 PM
Hypothetical: If Cassel comes out this season and passes for 3,500 yards with a 2-1 TD/INT ratio and we go 8&8, will everyone here still say he sucks and give credit to Weis/Jones/McCluster/Moeaki?

Actually, a few of us have been saying something similar since Weis was hired.

Charlie isn't going to ask the kid to do things he can't do. He's going to design a gameplan that masks Cassel's deficiencies. Which means there won't be many throws over 10 yards - which in turn helps mask his other huge weakness, his decision making. Not much of a decision when you're dumping the ball off.

So personally, I fully expect him to have numbers like that. Anything less would be a complete failure.

So for sake of conversation, if he hits those numbers - does that necessarily mean he got better? Or is it a case of not being asked to throw the ball downfield?

I fully expect another season like NE where 67% of his passes traveled less than 10 yards in the air.

TRR
07-21-2010, 04:10 PM
yet when the running game got better Cassel got worse, Cassel was near bottom in QB efficiency department which get gets me more revved up than being judge at a supermodel BJ contest.

That didn't answer my question at all.
Posted via Mobile Device

Tribal Warfare
07-21-2010, 04:20 PM
That didn't answer my question at all.
Posted via Mobile Device

he averaged 214 yards from the Jax game to the end of the season yep, he'll easily help Bowe

Fruit Ninja
07-21-2010, 04:24 PM
Yeah, do people really expect him to tweet back saying "Yeah, don't expect much out of Bowe"?how about totally ignore it? he didnt have too. he chose to answer. imo, thats good.

LaChapelle
07-21-2010, 05:01 PM
Fitz on Twitter

Bowe should put up Huge numbers this year in KC.He's been working his tail off up here RT @larryemcdaniel: How is Bowe doing training w/ u?"

Sounds good if a top 3 WR in the game is applauding Bowe.

Sounds like Bowe Importing is doing killer business

RedThat
07-21-2010, 06:29 PM
Actually, a few of us have been saying something similar since Weis was hired.

Charlie isn't going to ask the kid to do things he can't do. He's going to design a gameplan that masks Cassel's deficiencies. Which means there won't be many throws over 10 yards - which in turn helps mask his other huge weakness, his decision making. Not much of a decision when you're dumping the ball off.

So personally, I fully expect him to have numbers like that. Anything less would be a complete failure.

So for sake of conversation, if he hits those numbers - does that necessarily mean he got better? Or is it a case of not being asked to throw the ball downfield?

I fully expect another season like NE where 67% of his passes traveled less than 10 yards in the air.

Thats okay provided that guys like McCluster can be similar to a poor mans Wes Welker and makes plays after the catch.

RedThat
07-21-2010, 06:35 PM
Id like to comment here.

If Bowe provided decent production with Croyle, Thigpen and Huard throwing to him the past 2 seasons, then I really can't see Cassel being an underlying issue behind his productivity.

I agree with micjones comments. Bowe lacks maturity and concentration skills. And I also question his ability to respond under pressure. His underachievements this past year are simply because of those reasons imo. He just has to get his act together. Lets cross our fingers and hope because we need him. He's an important part of the offense.

milkman
07-21-2010, 06:40 PM
Thats okay provided that guys like McCluster can be similar to a poor mans Wes Welker and makes plays after the catch.

The problem with that is that good defenses, with talent in the back end can shut down that short passing game.

You, as a team, have to be excellent in other areas in order to advance in the playoffs.

So as long as Cassel is the QB, we'll have to either have a top 5 running game or a top 5 defense, or both.

And at the end of the day, with the rules so heavily weighted to favor passing, that still might not do it.

chiefzilla1501
07-21-2010, 06:41 PM
Id like to comment here.

If Bowe provided decent production with Croyle, Thigpen and Huard throwing to him the past 2 seasons, then I really can't see Cassel being an underlying issue behind his productivity.

I agree with micjones comments. Bowe lacks maturity and concentration skills. And I also question his ability to respond under pressure. His underachievements this past year are simply because of those reasons imo. He just has to get his act together. Lets cross our fingers and hope because we need him. He's an important part of the offense.

But again...
Was Bowe producing under Croyle, Thigpen and Huard?
Or was he producing because of Tony Gonzalez.

I think it has a LOT more to do with Gonzalez than those three QBs.

OnTheWarpath58
07-21-2010, 06:41 PM
Thats okay provided that guys like McCluster can be similar to a poor mans Wes Welker and makes plays after the catch.

No, it's not OK.

When an offense (or defense, for that matter) becomes one dimensional, the opposition can and will take advantage.

It's not going to be very difficult to gameplan for the Chiefs when the opposing team knows there's no serious threat of throwing the ball downfield.

chiefzilla1501
07-21-2010, 06:43 PM
No, it's not OK.

When an offense (or defense, for that matter) becomes one dimensional, the opposition can and will take advantage.

It's not going to be very difficult to gameplan for the Chiefs when the opposing team knows there's no serious threat of throwing the ball downfield.

I think there are a lot of teams you can beat with that formula and it can squeak you into the playoffs. I'm not worried about winning games (eventually).

But there's no way you're going to get far in the playoffs using that kind of a run-and-catch approach unless you have a defense like the Steelers.

OnTheWarpath58
07-21-2010, 06:44 PM
I think there are a lot of teams you can beat with that formula and it can squeak you into the playoffs. I'm not worried about winning games (eventually).

But there's no way you're going to get far in the playoffs using that kind of a run-and-catch approach unless you have a defense like the Steelers.

Exactly. 2000 Ravens would be another example.

Gonzo
07-21-2010, 06:45 PM
Bowe is going to be a very decent player this year and probably for the rest of his career. I just don't see him being the juggernaut everyone expected or hoped he would be.
I pray he proves me wrong and puts up some wicked numbers.
Posted via Mobile Device

RedThat
07-21-2010, 06:54 PM
The problem with that is that good defenses, with talent in the back end can shut down that short passing game.

You, as a team, have to be excellent in other areas in order to advance in the playoffs.

So as long as Cassel is the QB, we'll have to either have a top 5 running game or a top 5 defense, or both.

And at the end of the day, with the rules so heavily weighted to favor passing, that still might not do it.

Chiefs imo could be have a top 5 running game w/ Charles & Jones back there. Can we weigh in on that positive? I think that is an area Chiefs will excel at.

Defense, they got a long ways to go, although I do like the way the secondary is shaping up. I'll give them credit they're making strides in some areas of their football team.

Just want to comment on your first sentence, I really think a short passing game comes down to awareness, and speed. Those are two important attributes needed in order to make a short passing game excel imo. Can the defender get there first and disect the play before it even happens? Or is the slot receiver aware of the defender in time, makes him miss, and outruns him.

RedThat
07-21-2010, 06:55 PM
No, it's not OK.

When an offense (or defense, for that matter) becomes one dimensional, the opposition can and will take advantage.

It's not going to be very difficult to gameplan for the Chiefs when the opposing team knows there's no serious threat of throwing the ball downfield.

Don't worry. The Chiefs won't be one dimensional this year. They will have an excellent running game. I think teams will be gameplaning around this, and the offense will open up as a result. jmo

chiefzilla1501
07-21-2010, 06:56 PM
Bowe is going to be a very decent player this year and probably for the rest of his career. I just don't see him being the juggernaut everyone expected or hoped he would be.
I pray he proves me wrong and puts up some wicked numbers.
Posted via Mobile Device

Me too. I think he can be productive and important to the team. But I have a feeling he's not going to be a TO type guy you can rely on to produce consistently and put up 10 catches in any given game. I feel like he's destined to be a lightning-in-a-bottle guy. He'll make 1 or 2 big plays a game, but that's about it. A good enough guy for a #2, but not the #1 receiver I thought he was.

OnTheWarpath58
07-21-2010, 06:56 PM
Don't worry. The Chiefs won't be one dimensional this year. They will have an excellent running game.

Experts will tell you that the short passing game is nothing more than an extension of the running game.

So yes, they'll be one dimensional.

Unless Cassel had an arm transplant in the offseason, or magically became much more accurate.

Fruit Ninja
07-21-2010, 07:00 PM
Experts will tell you that the short passing game is nothing more than an extension of the running game.

So yes, they'll be one dimensional.

Unless Cassel had an arm transplant in the offseason, or magically became much more accurate.

He made some pretty decent passes downfield last year. Its not like he missed every single throw over 15 yards. He had some terrible passes, i dont ever deny that, but to say anything over 15 yards is a miss is just being stupid.

... (disclaimer) I am not a fan of Cassel's at all. Just saying

RedThat
07-21-2010, 07:02 PM
Experts will tell you that the short passing game is nothing more than an extension of the running game.

So yes, they'll be one dimensional.

Unless Cassel had an arm transplant in the offseason, or magically became much more accurate.

Then our running game is going to be pretty damn good. I really like the McCluster pick, and I believe the Chiefs will use him quite a bit in the slot this year. Just come to think, who was our slot receiver last year? Who was involved in the short passing game a lot? Bobby Wade. I have confidence McCluster is, and will be a lot better than Bobby Wade. Bobby Wade was unquestionably one of the worst players on the Chiefs roster last year. He made the offense worse than it actually was.

*At least we are going to have a better weapon there come September.

OnTheWarpath58
07-21-2010, 07:05 PM
He made some pretty decent passes downfield last year. Its not like he missed every single throw over 15 yards. He had some terrible passes, i dont ever deny that, but to say anything over 15 yards is a miss is just being stupid.

... (disclaimer) I am not a fan of Cassel's at all. Just saying

I never said everything over 15 is a miss.

But a 38% completion percentage on passes over 10 yards is beyond pathetic.

I can think of more deep throws that the WR bailed him out on than good throws of significant distance.

Goldmember
07-21-2010, 07:08 PM
But again...
Was Bowe producing under Croyle, Thigpen and Huard?
Or was he producing because of Tony Gonzalez.

I think it has a LOT more to do with Gonzalez than those three QBs.

Plus the offensive line was really fucked up last year, plus switching offensive coordinators in the second preseason game, plus Cassel getting hurt, plus no running game early in the year...the list goes on and on

Ralphy Boy
07-21-2010, 07:08 PM
Actually, a few of us have been saying something similar since Weis was hired.

Charlie isn't going to ask the kid to do things he can't do. He's going to design a gameplan that masks Cassel's deficiencies. Which means there won't be many throws over 10 yards - which in turn helps mask his other huge weakness, his decision making. Not much of a decision when you're dumping the ball off.

So personally, I fully expect him to have numbers like that. Anything less would be a complete failure.

So for sake of conversation, if he hits those numbers - does that necessarily mean he got better? Or is it a case of not being asked to throw the ball downfield?

I fully expect another season like NE where 67% of his passes traveled less than 10 yards in the air.

Cassel has a host of problems and I couldn't begin to name them all.
1) Got worse in the second half of the season when he was only sacked 15 times compared to 27 times in the first half.
2) Got worse once the team actually found a running game.
3) Got worse once he finally got a legit receiver in Chambers.

...on and on it goes, but I wouldn't put the deep ball near the top of the list.

We always talk about how bad Cassel's completion % is on deep passes so I decided to take a look at Brady & Cassel's splits just to see how they compare and Brady only completed 26.7% of his passes over 20 yards last season whereas Cassel completed 29.1%. Cassel had 55 passes over 20 and Brady had 60, so its a pretty fair comparison. Having said that, Brady did complete 40.6% of his passes over 20 yards in 2007.

After doing that I looked to see how a few other QB's did.
Manning completed 31.7% going 20 for 63.
Sanchez 25.6%, 10/39
Ryan 25.7%, 9/35
Orton 39.6%, 19/48
Rodgers 31.3%, 21/67
Brees 54.4%, 31/57
Rivers 33.8%, 24/71
Ben R 49.1%, 28/57

Obviously there were QB's that did much better than Cassel, but considering he was right in the ballpark of the likes of Manning, Rivers & Rodgers and better than Sanchez & Ryan, I don't think he did that bad.

Where he really bothers me is his horrible completion % on the passes from 21-30 yards, where he had an abysmal 20.6%. Hopefully the addition of McCluster & Moeaki, as well as the O-line, will improve that area.

According to Stats.com (http://hosted.stats.com/fb/leaders.asp?range=AFC&type=Receiving&rank=232&year=2009) Bowe had 11 dropped passes followed by Bradley 9, Wade 9 and Chambers 6. (Can't tell how many of Chambers drops were in KC or SD)

All QB's have to deal with dropped passes, Welker & Moss dropped 13 passes between them, but having to deal with 29 drops (Bowe, Wade & Bradley Stooges) is probably a bit much.

Either way, I'm certain Cassel will have a better year I just wonder (fear) what his ceiling is.

All the stats in the world and physical attributes don't mean much (Grbac/Jeff George) when it comes to the QB position, its all about whether he has the guts and the goods to lead a team on a game winning drive when everything (team, city and Chiefs Nation) is riding on his shoulders. I'm not convinced Cassel has "it" but I hope he proves me wrong.

OnTheWarpath58
07-21-2010, 07:10 PM
Then our running game is going to be pretty damn good. I really like the McCluster pick, and I believe the Chiefs will use him quite a bit in the slot this year. Just come to think, who was our slot receiver last year? Who was involved in the short passing game a lot? Bobby Wade. I have confidence McCluster is, and will be a lot better than Bobby Wade. Bobby Wade was unquestionably one of the worst players on the Chiefs roster last year. He made the offense worse than it actually was.

*At least we are going to have a better weapon there come September.

I hope you're right about the running game. But I'm not expecting them to be that good.

Charles has 8 starts under his belt, with five 100 yard games - all of them against defenses ranked 26th or worse in run defense.

Jones ran last year behind the best OL in the NFL. We're far from that.

Add to that the fact that as mentioned, we're going to be one dimensional, and that makes for tough sledding.

We don't have the type of OL that allows for success even when the other team KNOWS you're running the ball.

But enjoy your Kool-Aid.

OnTheWarpath58
07-21-2010, 07:11 PM
Cassel has a host of problems and I couldn't begin to name them all.
1) Got worse in the second half of the season when he was only sacked 15 times compared to 27 times in the first half.
2) Got worse once the team actually found a running game.
3) Got worse once he finally got a legit receiver in Chambers.

...on and on it goes, but I wouldn't put the deep ball near the top of the list.

We always talk about how bad Cassel's completion % is on deep passes so I decided to take a look at Brady & Cassel's splits just to see how they compare and Brady only completed 26.7% of his passes over 20 yards last season whereas Cassel completed 29.1%. Cassel had 55 passes over 20 and Brady had 60, so its a pretty fair comparison. Having said that, Brady did complete 40.6% of his passes over 20 yards in 2007.

After doing that I looked to see how a few other QB's did.
Manning completed 31.7% going 20 for 63.
Sanchez 25.6%, 10/39
Ryan 25.7%, 9/35
Orton 39.6%, 19/48
Rodgers 31.3%, 21/67
Brees 54.4%, 31/57
Rivers 33.8%, 24/71
Ben R 49.1%, 28/57

Obviously there were QB's that did much better than Cassel, but considering he was right in the ballpark of the likes of Manning, Rivers & Rodgers and better than Sanchez & Ryan, I don't think he did that bad.

Where he really bothers me is his horrible completion % on the passes from 21-30 yards, where he had an abysmal 20.6%. Hopefully the addition of McCluster & Moeaki, as well as the O-line, will improve that area.

According to Stats.com (http://hosted.stats.com/fb/leaders.asp?range=AFC&type=Receiving&rank=232&year=2009) Bowe had 11 dropped passes followed by Bradley 9, Wade 9 and Chambers 6. (Can't tell how many of Chambers drops were in KC or SD)

All QB's have to deal with dropped passes, Welker & Moss dropped 13 passes between them, but having to deal with 29 drops (Bowe, Wade & Bradley Stooges) is probably a bit much.

Either way, I'm certain Cassel will have a better year I just wonder (fear) what his ceiling is.

All the stats in the world and physical attributes don't mean much (Grbac/Jeff George) when it comes to the QB position, its all about whether he has the guts and the goods to lead a team on a game winning drive when everything (team, city and Chiefs Nation) is riding on his shoulders. I'm not convinced Cassel has "it" but I hope he proves me wrong.

Any particular reason you skipped from 10 yards to 20?

Chocolate Hog
07-21-2010, 07:12 PM
Charlie Weis sucks.

JASONSAUTO
07-21-2010, 07:13 PM
damn, good post ralphy boy.
Posted via Mobile Device

Mecca
07-21-2010, 07:14 PM
I don't know about 2-1 TD/INT ratio we don't have anyone a defense will fear getting beat deep by which means they'll press the line knowing the short passes are coming which in turn will lead to pick 6's.

Goldmember
07-21-2010, 07:15 PM
According to Stats.com (http://hosted.stats.com/fb/leaders.asp?range=AFC&type=Receiving&rank=232&year=2009) Bowe had 11 dropped passes

And he missed 4 four games on top of that

Marcellus
07-21-2010, 07:17 PM
I don't know about 2-1 TD/INT ratio we don't have anyone a defense will fear getting beat deep by which means they'll press the line knowing the short passes are coming which in turn will lead to pick 6's.

McCluster has speed. That's why they drafted him. I don't see him just running slant routes.

Marcellus
07-21-2010, 07:18 PM
And he missed 4 four games on top of that

No kidding think of the opportunities he wasted. He could have had at least 15!

Ralphy Boy
07-21-2010, 07:20 PM
Any particular reason you skipped from 10 yards to 20?

It was in reference to his ability in throwing the deep ball and I wouldn't consider 10-20 yards deep. As I said, his intermediate passes are where his problem lies, IMO. Not in the deep ball. How much of the blame has to do with the line or dropped passes we will soon find out; since I don't think anyone could say that we haven't spent a significant amount in improving those areas with the additions of Weigman, DMC, Moeaki & Lilja.


damn, good post ralphy boy.
Posted via Mobile Device

Thanks.

chiefzilla1501
07-21-2010, 07:20 PM
Plus the offensive line was really ****ed up last year, plus switching offensive coordinators in the second preseason game, plus Cassel getting hurt, plus no running game early in the year...the list goes on and on

Chris Chambers came in midseason.
He didn't know our offense.
He never worked with Croyle.
He did 10 times the things Bowe was doing.

Maybe there are reasons. But looking back even at Bowe's "productive" years, can you really say he's a guy who's ever beaten you with great routes? No. Most of his big plays involved the QB throwing an extremely accurate pass that required an extra-effort catch. He has a lot to prove if he wants to be thought of as "the guy." I would much rather a guy who can produce consistently than a guy who'll give you 1 or 2 big catches and disappear the rest of the game.

chiefzilla1501
07-21-2010, 07:22 PM
I don't know about 2-1 TD/INT ratio we don't have anyone a defense will fear getting beat deep by which means they'll press the line knowing the short passes are coming which in turn will lead to pick 6's.

I don't think it's as bad as you might think. Brady didn't throw a very good deep ball his first 2 seasons. In fact, it was pretty lousy--he did a lot of work with his mechanics to get better. I think there are a lot of things you can do horizontally when your team can't stretch the field horizontally. So yeah, I think it hurts us to not stretch the field, but it won't kill us.

Weis is not a guy who likes to throw deep. He likes to just keep those plays in his backpocket to show that he can if he wants to.

OnTheWarpath58
07-21-2010, 07:35 PM
Any particular reason you skipped from 10 yards to 20?

I guess I'll answer that question.

Because Brady's completion percentage on throws over 10 yards (which is what we were discussing) is 46% - or 8 percent higher than Cassel's.

Peyton Manning? 52%

Philip Rivers? 48%

Drew Brees? 57%

Matt Ryan? 41%

Kyle Orton? 41%

Aaron Rodgers? 44%

Ben Roethlisberger? 50%

Mark Sanchez? 41%


So, to summarize, of all the QB's you tried to compare to Cassel, none of them completed less than 41% of their passes over 10 yards - which is the stat being discussed - and that includes a rookie and a 2nd year guy.

But sure, we shouldn't be worried at all about Cassel's ability - or in this case, lack thereof - of stretching the field.

JASONSAUTO
07-21-2010, 07:42 PM
I hope you're right about the running game. But I'm not expecting them to be that good.

Charles has 8 starts under his belt, with five 100 yard games - all of them against defenses ranked 26th or worse in run defense.

Jones ran last year behind the best OL in the NFL. We're far from that.

Add to that the fact that as mentioned, we're going to be one dimensional, and that makes for tough sledding.

We don't have the type of OL that allows for success even when the other team KNOWS you're running the ball.

But enjoy your Kool-Aid.

honest question.


what are you excited about for this coming season?


.only asking so ill know what thread that people are optimistic in that you wont be trying to shit all over,
Posted via Mobile Device

JASONSAUTO
07-21-2010, 07:44 PM
I guess I'll answer that question.

Because Brady's completion percentage on throws over 10 yards (which is what we were discussing) is 46% - or 8 percent higher than Cassel's.

Peyton Manning? 52%

Philip Rivers? 48%

Drew Brees? 57%

Matt Ryan? 41%

Kyle Orton? 41%

Aaron Rodgers? 44%

Ben Roethlisberger? 50%

Mark Sanchez? 41%


So, to summarize, of all the QB's you tried to compare to Cassel, none of them completed less than 41% of their passes over 10 yards - which is the stat being discussed - and that includes a rookie and a 2nd year guy.

But sure, we shouldn't be worried at all about Cassel's ability - or in this case, lack thereof - of stretching the field.

did you ask yourself that question? do you read minds?

he answered for himself several posts up
Posted via Mobile Device

The Bad Guy
07-21-2010, 07:48 PM
Which is the reason why he won't have better numbers no matter how well he improves.

Did you consult with your dad before you posted this?

OnTheWarpath58
07-21-2010, 07:49 PM
honest question.


what are you excited about for this coming season?


.only asking so ill know what thread that people are optimistic in that you wont be trying to shit all over,
Posted via Mobile Device

Sure. Honest question.

Which is why you take the shot at the end.

Can't handle the truth? Don't fucking read it.

To answer your "honest" question:

Charles, Bowe, Albert, Berry, Flowers, Carr, Dorsey, Succop, Colquitt, MNF.

I'll add to that an "intrigued" list:

Lilja, Richardson, DJ, Gilberry, Haley's sideline antics potentially dying down, Weis as full time OC, Crennel turning chicken shit into chicken salad, playing a shitty schedule.

OnTheWarpath58
07-21-2010, 07:51 PM
did you ask yourself that question? do you read minds?

he answered for himself several posts up
Posted via Mobile Device

I was doing the research for my post. I didn't see his.

But I don't need to read minds, I only need to read the thread - where it was noted several times that we were discussing Cassel's lack of accuracy from 10 yards and out.

Moving the goalposts to 20 to make Cassel look better was an obvious ploy, and was caught.

The Bad Guy
07-21-2010, 07:51 PM
I hope you're right about the running game. But I'm not expecting them to be that good.

Charles has 8 starts under his belt, with five 100 yard games - all of them against defenses ranked 26th or worse in run defense.

Jones ran last year behind the best OL in the NFL. We're far from that.

Add to that the fact that as mentioned, we're going to be one dimensional, and that makes for tough sledding.

We don't have the type of OL that allows for success even when the other team KNOWS you're running the ball.

But enjoy your Kool-Aid.

There are a lot of one-dimensional teams in the NFL with shitty lines that still run the ball effectively.

RedThat
07-21-2010, 07:52 PM
I hope you're right about the running game. But I'm not expecting them to be that good.

Charles has 8 starts under his belt, with five 100 yard games - all of them against defenses ranked 26th or worse in run defense.

Jones ran last year behind the best OL in the NFL. We're far from that.

Add to that the fact that as mentioned, we're going to be one dimensional, and that makes for tough sledding.

We don't have the type of OL that allows for success even when the other team KNOWS you're running the ball.

But enjoy your Kool-Aid.

Okay I'll admit it was a bit of an exaggeration on my part, but, I feel confident the Chiefs running game will be a strength this year.

I think they simply have a lot of right things in place for them to succeed in that area. You make a good point about Jones and the OL. I agree with your comments there. However, I don't think we have to have the best OL.

I think we will see improvements there. The Chiefs imo, did a good job of finding the right role players that are suitable for what they want to do. The signings of Wiegman and Lilja are simply implications of that. We are going to be a zone blocking team, and we have lineman that are products of that particular system. With that being said, the system they are going to run are suitable for the talents of both Charles and Jones.

I really believe in Jamaal Charles and would love to see him go up against a top tier defense. I watched a lot of him last year, and his play gave me every indication to believe he could make an average OL look good. That is also another reason I say they don't have to be the best. I think his great vision, and cut back ability can and will simply be no match for defenders. It will mask the deficiencies and weakness of the OL. Plus, we all saw last year his ability to get into the open field. And once he does, its lights out because I don't see many guys in this league that will catch him. He is a classic representation on how speed kills. The guy is a true talent. We're lucky to have him.

The Bad Guy
07-21-2010, 07:53 PM
I'm pretty damn excited to see Tamba Hali with a real defensive coordinator and a defensive line coach that can actually teach him some pass rush moves.

OnTheWarpath58
07-21-2010, 07:54 PM
There are a lot of one-dimensional teams in the NFL with shitty lines that still run the ball effectively.

Name five.

Now, how many of those 5 are capable of winning playoff games?

And of those 5, how many are capable of winning a playoff game because they have a stout defense?

That's what was being discussed:

I think there are a lot of teams you can beat with that formula and it can squeak you into the playoffs. I'm not worried about winning games (eventually).

But there's no way you're going to get far in the playoffs using that kind of a run-and-catch approach unless you have a defense like the Steelers.

Exactly. 2000 Ravens would be another example.

JASONSAUTO
07-21-2010, 07:55 PM
Sure. Honest question.

Which is why you take the shot at the end.

Can't handle the truth? Don't fucking read it.

To answer your "honest" question:

Charles, Bowe, Albert, Berry, Flowers, Carr, Dorsey, Succop, Colquitt, MNF.

I'll add to that an "intrigued" list:

Lilja, Richardson, DJ, Gilberry, Haley's sideline antics potentially dying down, Weis as full time OC, Crennel turning chicken shit into chicken salad, playing a shitty schedule.

everything i said in that posr WAS honest. figured id get the "why" i was asking out of the way right off.

you werent exactly glowing about the secondary the other day.

now you say you are excoted about them....

i want yo find a thread you arent bitching in so some people can be excited about something without the buzzkill.
Posted via Mobile Device

OnTheWarpath58
07-21-2010, 07:55 PM
I'm pretty damn excited to see Tamba Hali with a real defensive coordinator and a defensive line coach that can actually teach him some pass rush moves.

I'd be excited if he could stop the run.

I hope like hell he can get to the 14-16 sack range, because that's the only way you can justify someone that bad against the run starting.

KcMizzou
07-21-2010, 08:01 PM
I haven't read the whole thread, but my thoughts on this are pretty simple.

Bowe's main issues seem to be maturity and focus. (kinda go hand in hand) The fact that he's chosen to go work with some of the best of the best (and seems to have impressed) is a very good sign, IMO.

Look, like a lot of WRs the guy's got a big ego. He dearly wants to be a star. You don't think last season bothered him? His reputation took a pretty big hit.

Frankly, I don't care why he's motivated. Only that he is. And from the looks of things, that's the case.

OnTheWarpath58
07-21-2010, 08:02 PM
I haven't read the whole thread, but my thoughts on this are pretty simple.

Bowe's main issues seem to be maturity and focus. (kinda go hand in hand) The fact that he's chosen to go work with some of the best of the best (and seems to have impressed) is a very good sign, IMO.

Look, like a lot of WRs the guy's got a big ego. He dearly wants to be a star. You don't think last season bothered him? His reputation took a pretty big hit.

Frankly, I don't care why he's motivated. Only that he is. And from the looks of things, that's the case.

Solid post.

greg63
07-21-2010, 08:03 PM
Ok, that last part brings back funny memories.

Ahhh, nostalgia.

LOL My thoughts EXACTLY! Yet he drops the balls standing still and defenders are 20 yards away. Lack of concentration.

What, exactly, does reaching puberty have to do with it.

RedThat
07-21-2010, 08:09 PM
I'd be excited if he could stop the run.

I can't see that happening. He is a liability in that area, and has been throughout his career. And it's not like he improved at it.

I hope like hell he can get to the 14-16 sack range, because that's the only way you can justify someone that bad against the run starting.

14-16? Can't see that happening either. Unless Romeo does some incredible wonders with him. I think he is what he is. A guy who is capable of getting 8-10 sacks in a season. I could see Tamba getting 10 sacks. Thats what I expect from him. And I say that from a realistic point of view. If you look throughout his career he hasn't even accomplished 10 sacks in a season. Im being generous when I say I expect 10.

If we are going improve against the run, Im not counting on him. Hopefully Shaun Smith could be a surprise or Dorsey and Jackson improve. Or, they simply find a way to improve the interior of their defense in general? LBers included.

OnTheWarpath58
07-21-2010, 08:10 PM
I can't see that happening. He is a liability in that area, and has been throughout his career. And it's not like he improved at it.



14-16? Can't see that happening either. Unless Romeo does some incredible wonders with him. I think he is what he is. A guy who is capable of getting 8-10 sacks in a season. I could see Tamba getting 10 sacks. Thats what I expect from him. And I say that from a realistic point of view. If you look throughout his career thats what he has accomplished and thats what I expect.

If we are going improve against the run, Im not counting on him. Hopefully Shaun Smith could be a surprise or Dorsey and Jackson improve. Or, they simply find a way to improve the interior of their defense in general? LBers included.

Your most realistic post ever.

Rep.

RedThat
07-21-2010, 08:12 PM
Your most realistic post ever.

Rep.

Thanks bro:D

Ralphy Boy
07-21-2010, 08:13 PM
Chris Chambers came in midseason.
He didn't know our offense.
He never worked with Croyle.
He did 10 times the things Bowe was doing.

Maybe there are reasons. But looking back even at Bowe's "productive" years, can you really say he's a guy who's ever beaten you with great routes? No. Most of his big plays involved the QB throwing an extremely accurate pass that required an extra-effort catch. He has a lot to prove if he wants to be thought of as "the guy." I would much rather a guy who can produce consistently than a guy who'll give you 1 or 2 big catches and disappear the rest of the game.

I completely agree but I really think Bowe will be fine if Chambers continues to provide a deep threat. Yeah he had a bad season, but he was still the focus of the other teams secondary until Chambers arrived and Charles emerged.

He averaged 3.8 catches per game over the first half of the season compared to 4.8 the second half. In 2008 he averaged 5.3 catches per game.
66% of his catches last season resulted in a 1st down compared to just 57% the year before.

One fear I have with Cassel is giving him too many options as I don't think he has the ability to make more than 1 or 2 reads. If I'm right then I'm sure Weis & Haley know it and they'll make sure he isn't given those choices.

Having said that I did look to see how he did with multiple WR & TE formations.
2 WR 57.9% 6 TD, 4 INT, 12 sacks
3 WR 52.8% 7 TD, 6 INT, 22 sacks
4+ WR 55.9% 1 TD, 6 INT, 6 sacks

0 TE 50.7% 5 TD, 6 INT, 10 sacks
1 TE 58.3% 7 TD, 10 INT, 23 sacks
2 TE 50% 2 TD, 0 INT, 9 sacks

Out of the shotgun he was 53.2% w/ 5 TD & 11 INT and 25 sacks
Lone setback he was 55.7% w/6 TD & 9 INT and 25 sacks.

It doesn't show that we ran any plays out of the I formation or with Backs Split.

When they blitzed he completed 51.7% out of 181 attempts, with 9 TD, 5 INT & 22 sacks. Really not that bad IMO, yeah the completion % sucked but at least he didn't throw a bunch of picks.

When he faced a four man front though he wasn't good, 55.4% on 280 attempts with 6 TD & 12 INT's with 25 sacks. Good thing most teams are going to a 3-4.

Ralphy Boy
07-21-2010, 08:37 PM
I was doing the research for my post. I didn't see his.

But I don't need to read minds, I only need to read the thread - where it was noted several times that we were discussing Cassel's lack of accuracy from 10 yards and out.

Moving the goalposts to 20 to make Cassel look better was an obvious ploy, and was caught.

What the hell are you talking about? I said multiple times that Cassel's deeper passes don't bother me BUT HIS SHORT/INTERMEDIATE DOES.

You call it a ploy like I have some agenda and I don't. I don't give two squirts what you think and why would I? You didn't read my freaking post thoroughly or you misunderstood it but it wasn't a "ploy that was caught".

Did you feel proud of yourself when you announced so boldly that you caught my obvious ploy? You're real cool.

Quit being a dumbass.

In post #58 I said "Cassel has a host of problems....we always talk about how bad Cassel's completion % is on deep passes so I decided to compare..." Then I clearly stated that I was comparing 20+ yard passes.

In post #67 I answered your question and said As I said, his intermediate passes are where his problem lies, IMO. Not in the deep ball. then you come in on post #70, like an idiot who clearly can't freaking read, and answer your own question and then in post #75 you call my first post an obvious ploy.

Get over yourself.

OnTheWarpath58
07-21-2010, 08:45 PM
What the hell are you talking about? I said multiple times that Cassel's deeper passes don't bother me BUT HIS SHORT/INTERMEDIATE DOES.

You call it a ploy like I have some agenda and I don't. I don't give two squirts what you think and why would I? You didn't read my freaking post thoroughly or you misunderstood it but it wasn't a "ploy that was caught".

Did you feel proud of yourself when you announced so boldly that you caught my obvious ploy? You're real cool.

Quit being a dumbass.

In post #58 I said "Cassel has a host of problems....we always talk about how bad Cassel's completion % is on deep passes so I decided to compare..." Then I clearly stated that I was comparing 20+ yard passes.

In post #67 I answered your question and said then you come in on post #70, like an idiot who clearly can't freaking read, and answer your own question and then in post #75 you call my first post an obvious ploy.

Get over yourself.

No one said anything about the deep ball.

What was said is that his downfield accuracy is suspect. Stats were posted to show his inefficiency on throws over 10 yards. That his lack of accuracy will make the offense one dimensional.

There was no reason to move the goalposts and compare splits at 20+ yards other than to try to make him look like something he isn't - an accurate downfield passer.

But suit yourself.

DaneMcCloud
07-21-2010, 08:57 PM
If we are going improve against the run, Im not counting on him. Hopefully Shaun Smith could be a surprise or Dorsey and Jackson improve. Or, they simply find a way to improve the interior of their defense in general? LBers included.

Jackson improve?

LMAO

To what exactly? An F+ from an F-?

Jackson is a bust and Dorsey will again be out of position.

The D-line will suck ass again, which will affect the linebackers and safeties.

Until that's corrected, the Chiefs defense will languish at the bottom of the league.

Ralphy Boy
07-21-2010, 08:57 PM
No one said anything about the deep ball.

What was said is that his downfield accuracy is suspect. Stats were posted to show his inefficiency on throws over 10 yards. That his lack of accuracy will make the offense one dimensional.

There was no reason to move the goalposts and compare splits at 20+ yards other than to try to make him look like something he isn't - an accurate downfield passer.

But suit yourself.

I'm well aware that you didn't say "deep ball". I did. You said "downfield" and I quoted your statement to talk about the fact that on multiple occassions his "deep ball" has been bashed. Then I specifically stated in the same post that I wasn't concerned with his deep ball but rather his intermediate passes.
Where he really bothers me is his horrible completion % on the passes from 21-30 yards, where he had an abysmal 20.6%. Hopefully the addition of McCluster & Moeaki, as well as the O-line, will improve that area.



There was no "ploy" on my part and I certainly didn't try to make Cassel out to be better than he is, but suit yourself.

The Bad Guy
07-21-2010, 09:01 PM
Name five.

Now, how many of those 5 are capable of winning playoff games?

And of those 5, how many are capable of winning a playoff game because they have a stout defense?

That's what was being discussed:

Buffalo Bills with Fred Jackson last year
Carolina Panthers last year after Gross and Otah got hurt
San Francisco - is anyone really afraid of Alex Smith?
Jacksonville
Miami Dolphins - Henne has grown, but no teams weren't loading up to stop their run game. Their line, sans Jake Long, is pretty awful.

You didn't say anything about playoff games. You said name one-dimensional teams that can run the ball behind bad offensive lines. You can't just change the criteria here after you made the comment.

Kerberos
07-21-2010, 09:04 PM
Fitz was saying the same damn thing LAST year before the season as Bowe was training with him then too.

Someone may have already pointed this out but I didn't have time to check every post.

OnTheWarpath58
07-21-2010, 09:04 PM
Buffalo Bills with Fred Jackson last year
Carolina Panthers last year after Gross and Otah got hurt
San Francisco - is anyone really afraid of Alex Smith?
Jacksonville
Miami Dolphins - Henne has grown, but no teams weren't loading up to stop their run game. Their line, sans Jake Long, is pretty awful.

You didn't say anything about playoff games. You said name one-dimensional teams that can run the ball behind bad offensive lines. You can't just change the criteria here after you made the comment.

I guess you missed this exchange, even though I posted it in my response to you:

I think there are a lot of teams you can beat with that formula and it can squeak you into the playoffs. I'm not worried about winning games (eventually).

But there's no way you're going to get far in the playoffs using that kind of a run-and-catch approach unless you have a defense like the Steelers.

Exactly. 2000 Ravens would be another example.

Ralphy Boy
07-21-2010, 09:07 PM
Fitz was saying the same damn thing LAST year before the season as Bowe was training with him then too.

Someone may have already pointed this out but I didn't have time to check every post.

I'd completely forgotten that. Didn't exactly do him a lot of good last year.

milkman
07-21-2010, 09:13 PM
Okay I'll admit it was a bit of an exaggeration on my part, but, I feel confident the Chiefs running game will be a strength this year.

I think they simply have a lot of right things in place for them to succeed in that area. You make a good point about Jones and the OL. I agree with your comments there. However, I don't think we have to have the best OL.

I think we will see improvements there. The Chiefs imo, did a good job of finding the right role players that are suitable for what they want to do. The signings of Wiegman and Lilja are simply implications of that. We are going to be a zone blocking team, and we have lineman that are products of that particular system. With that being said, the system they are going to run are suitable for the talents of both Charles and Jones.

Frankly, I'm concerned that Lilja is a bad fit at RG, and that Weigman is over the hill and will struggle to even beat out Niswanger.

Add the fact that O'Calligan is likely still starting at RT, and I really don't believe we've improved the O-Line more than marginally, if at all.

The most improvement will come on the left side, where I believe that Albert will show a higher comfort level with technique and play more instinctively rather than think about how he's supposed to be playing.

Water's play benefits as a result.

I really believe in Jamaal Charles and would love to see him go up against a top tier defense. I watched a lot of him last year, and his play gave me every indication to believe he could make an average OL look good. That is also another reason I say they don't have to be the best. I think his great vision, and cut back ability can and will simply be no match for defenders. It will mask the deficiencies and weakness of the OL. Plus, we all saw last year his ability to get into the open field. And once he does, its lights out because I don't see many guys in this league that will catch him. He is a classic representation on how speed kills. The guy is a true talent. We're lucky to have him.

I think that Charles is the one bright spot in all of this.

I agree that he can, and will, make a mediocre line look competent, even against the better defenses.

milkman
07-21-2010, 09:17 PM
everything i said in that posr WAS honest. figured id get the "why" i was asking out of the way right off.

you werent exactly glowing about the secondary the other day.

now you say you are excoted about them....

i want yo find a thread you arent bitching in so some people can be excited about something without the buzzkill.
Posted via Mobile Device

I want to know what the hell you expect?

The reality is that path, along with many more of us, have lower expectations, and little hope in many aspects of the Chiefs.

It is what it is.

There's no way to avoid it.

You have to learn to get over it.

milkman
07-21-2010, 09:20 PM
Your most realistic post ever.

Rep.

I second that.

OnTheWarpath58
07-21-2010, 09:29 PM
everything i said in that posr WAS honest. figured id get the "why" i was asking out of the way right off.

you werent exactly glowing about the secondary the other day.

now you say you are excoted about them....

i want yo find a thread you arent bitching in so some people can be excited about something without the buzzkill.
Posted via Mobile Device

I missed this the first time around. Thanks to Milkman for quoting it, because per your usual, you've distorted the truth and are arguing the poster and not the post.

There's a HUGE difference in stating the facts about the secondary - that they didn't rank better than 20th in any major statistic - and agreeing with the ranking that was given. Until they prove they can play at a high level, they deserve that ranking - plain and simple. I don't recall saying anything in that thread about the secondary being bad. Just pointing out why I felt the ranking was justified.

And last I checked, a person can be excited about specific players and not necessarily the entire position unit.

Until the front seven is drastically improved, the secondary isn't going to play to their capabilities. You can't expect these kids to cover an NFL WR for 7+ seconds.

chiefzilla1501
07-21-2010, 09:39 PM
Jackson improve?

LMAO

To what exactly? An F+ from an F-?

Jackson is a bust and Dorsey will again be out of position.

The D-line will suck ass again, which will affect the linebackers and safeties.

Until that's corrected, the Chiefs defense will languish at the bottom of the league.

I'd be shocked if Jackson didn't improve--he'll get much better coaching and the 5-technique is actually a pretty difficult position to learn. But you're right in that his upside is probably a B at best, a C to a C+ most likely. Still a big improvement from an F-. I think Dorsey and Jackson could be adequate bookends. We're going to get gashed in the middle.

KcMizzou
07-21-2010, 09:52 PM
Fitz was saying the same damn thing LAST year before the season as Bowe was training with him then too.

Someone may have already pointed this out but I didn't have time to check every post.I don't remember ever hearing about this. Maybe I missed it?

-King-
07-21-2010, 10:51 PM
Fitz was saying the same damn thing LAST year before the season as Bowe was training with him then too.

Someone may have already pointed this out but I didn't have time to check every post.
This is Bowes first time training with Fitz
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/07/08/cris-carter-michael-irvin-provide-tough-love-to-dwayne-bowe/
Posted via Mobile Device

KCrockaholic
07-21-2010, 11:09 PM
The only thing that worries me is that as soon as mini-camp was over he took 12 days off from working out.

A guy in his condition needs to stay focused at all times, and really doesn't deserve a long leash. He needs to stay in good condition so that we don't have problems like last year when Bowe decided to balloon up to 230 or 240.

Marcus_Halberstram
07-21-2010, 11:19 PM
Bowe is a stud. Put him on another team and hes a Pro Bowler every year.

KCrockaholic
07-21-2010, 11:20 PM
Bowe is a stud. Put him on another team and hes a Pro Bowler every year.

WTF? Did somebody do a mass Chiefsplanet nOOb search?

Marcus_Halberstram
07-21-2010, 11:24 PM
WTF? Did somebody do a mass Chiefsplanet nOOb search?

What is a noob? Someone who likes Dwayne Bowe? People who dine in Soho? Way too commercial now.

Please, Ive been watching the Chiefs since we drafted Tyson Jackson. Ive been following him since his senior year in college, and I think hes is going to do serious damage. I go waaaay back

DaneMcCloud
07-21-2010, 11:24 PM
Bowe is a stud. Put him on another team and hes a Pro Bowler every year.

Walk into an AIDS tree

Marcus_Halberstram
07-21-2010, 11:26 PM
Walk into an AIDS tree

AIDS?

How does a tree acquire AIDS?

And hasn't AIDS become a little passe? How about a cancer tree?

KCrockaholic
07-21-2010, 11:27 PM
What is a noob? Someone who likes Dwayne Bowe? People who dine in Soho? Way too commercial now.

Please, Ive been watching the Chiefs since we drafted Tyson Jackson. Ive been following him since his senior year in college, and I think hes is going to do serious damage. I go waaaay back

lol. Nothin on you man, but I just noticed like 3 new people within the last 3 minutes. Welcome to the board again Marcus :)

Marcus_Halberstram
07-21-2010, 11:33 PM
lol. Nothin on you man, but I just noticed like 3 new people within the last 3 minutes. Welcome to the board again Marcus :)

Why thank you kcrockaholic4life, have you ever had the peanut butter soup with smoked duck and mashed squash at Barcadia?

Don't, it's horrible by the way.

KCrockaholic
07-21-2010, 11:35 PM
Why thank you kcrockaholic4life, have you ever had the peanut butter soup with smoked duck and mashed squash at Barcadia?

Don't, it's horrible by the way.

Have you ever picked up chicks using a motorcycle?

Don't, it doesn't actually work.

Marcus_Halberstram
07-21-2010, 11:36 PM
Listen, anybody who doesn't think Bowe isn't a superstud should just shut up and follow another team. OK? I hate fake fans.

DaneMcCloud
07-21-2010, 11:36 PM
Listen, anybody who doesn't think Bowe isn't a superstud should just shut up and follow another team. OK? I hate fake fans.

Fuck off, then kill yourself.

Okay?

Marcus_Halberstram
07-21-2010, 11:38 PM
Have you ever picked up chicks using a motorcycle?

Don't, it doesn't actually work.

I typically stand behind them in line at the ATM and smile at them reassuringly if they feel a little nervous. My Valentino suits and perfect teeth usually are enough to soothe any anxiety before I take them back to my apartment over looking the Park, where I have my way with them.

Marcus_Halberstram
07-21-2010, 11:40 PM
**** off, then kill yourself.

Okay?

Whats a matter Dane ol' boy? No shiatsu this morning?

Chiefspants
07-21-2010, 11:57 PM
Whats a matter Dane ol' boy? No shiatsu this morning?

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Fish
07-21-2010, 11:58 PM
honest question.


what are you excited about for this coming season?


.only asking so ill know what thread that people are optimistic in that you wont be trying to shit all over,
Posted via Mobile Device

Awesome sentence...

KCrockaholic
07-22-2010, 12:00 AM
Awesome sentence...

LMAO.

WTF?

Tribal Warfare
07-22-2010, 12:35 AM
Walk into an AIDS tree

They are curing AIDs, how about getting stung by a swarm of Cancer bees?

JASONSAUTO
07-22-2010, 06:53 AM
I want to know what the hell you expect?

The reality is that path, along with many more of us, have lower expectations, and little hope in many aspects of the Chiefs.

It is what it is.

There's no way to avoid it.

You have to learn to get over it.

i expect, especially at this time of year, for people to be able to get excited about some aspects of the team without some guy going everywhere and trying to crush whatever hopes some might have BEFORE even seeing what is going on on the field.


hell look at this thread.

TBG says he's excited about hali.
OTWP just has to come back with "i'd be excited if he could stop the run. he'll have to get 14-16 sacks to justify starting with his run play"


14-16 sacks? how many players had that many last year?



i'll answer.... 2. 2 players in the whole NFL.


pretty unrealistic IMO.


then he goes out and sets himself up for something to bitch about with cassel and weis....

OnTheWarpath58
07-22-2010, 07:46 AM
i expect, especially at this time of year, for people to be able to get excited about some aspects of the team without some guy going everywhere and trying to crush whatever hopes some might have BEFORE even seeing what is going on on the field.


hell look at this thread.

TBG says he's excited about hali.
OTWP just has to come back with "i'd be excited if he could stop the run. he'll have to get 14-16 sacks to justify starting with his run play"


14-16 sacks? how many players had that many last year?



i'll answer.... 2. 2 players in the whole NFL.


pretty unrealistic IMO.


then he goes out and sets himself up for something to bitch about with cassel and weis....

So in other words, you don't want certain people to have the ability to voice their opinion.

Got it.

Hali IS a shitty run defender. This isn't debatable. I guess if you can't handle the facts, get off the message board.

Again, you take what's actually written and turn it into something else.

I never said that Hali WOULD GET, or is even CAPABLE of getting 14-16 sacks. You're absolutely right, that is unrealistic.

What I DID say, is that he's have to reach that number to justify starting if he doesn't significantly improve his run defense.

He's a huge liability out there, and personally, getting 8 sacks from him isn't worth getting gashed on the ground, in large part, because of him.

If you want to live in a world of rainbows, ice cream and unicorns, feel free. No one is stopping you. Just be prepared for someone to come along and give you a taste of reality once in a while.

If you don't like it, don't read it. Or put me on ignore. But I'm not going to post shit I don't believe to be true to make someone like yourself feel better about this team.

-King-
07-22-2010, 08:36 AM
You two should get married.
Posted via Mobile Device

TRR
07-22-2010, 09:15 AM
What I DID say, is that he's have to reach that number to justify starting if he doesn't significantly improve his run defense.

Sometimes I ask myself if you truly believe some of the shit you post, or if you do it just to get a reaction. This post above is completely idiotic.

The bottom line is that it truly must be tough for you during football season
Posted via Mobile Device

Reerun_KC
07-22-2010, 09:20 AM
Sometimes I ask myself if you truly believe some of the shit you post, or if you do it just to get a reaction. This post above is completely idiotic.

The bottom line is that it truly must be tough for you during football season
Posted via Mobile Device

I think it is just easier to be negative and pissy all the time... This way your not let down when they dont succeed...

Its the "sit back and I told you so" syndrome...

JASONSAUTO
07-22-2010, 09:23 AM
So in other words, you don't want certain people to have the ability to voice their opinion.

Got it.

Hali IS a shitty run defender. This isn't debatable. I guess if you can't handle the facts, get off the message board.

Again, you take what's actually written and turn it into something else.

I never said that Hali WOULD GET, or is even CAPABLE of getting 14-16 sacks. You're absolutely right, that is unrealistic.

What I DID say, is that he's have to reach that number to justify starting if he doesn't significantly improve his run defense.

He's a huge liability out there, and personally, getting 8 sacks from him isn't worth getting gashed on the ground, in large part, because of him.

If you want to live in a world of rainbows, ice cream and unicorns, feel free. No one is stopping you. Just be prepared for someone to come along and give you a taste of reality once in a while.

If you don't like it, don't read it. Or put me on ignore. But I'm not going to post shit I don't believe to be true to make someone like yourself feel better about this team.

i NEVER said that you even implied that he would or could get 14-16 sacks.

can you even read? it's in the post you quoted. why put unrealistic expectations on the guy? just so you can come back and bitch and say "hey look guys i was right". pretty sad.

and why did you feel the need to post that after TBG said he was excited to see what hali could do? you say you arent going to post shit you dont believe true but you didnt HAVE to post after he did. you CHOSE to. why do you feel as though you have to try and crush poeple's hope about the team at this point in the year.

does it make you feel big? good? what?

no one knows for sure what this team will look like in a couple of weeks yet you speak as though you are throwing facts out there that are already proven THIS YEAR. Just because something happened in the past doesnt mean it cannot change. For the better or worse. things COULD get worse. i'm not naive enough to believe any different, but before training camp is the time for optimism.

if you cant hope now why even put yourself through it?

TRR
07-22-2010, 09:46 AM
I think it is just easier to be negative and pissy all the time... This way your not let down when they dont succeed...

Its the "sit back and I told you so" syndrome...

I can understand that. I guess I am somewhere in the middle. It would be extremely hard for me to have any enjoyment watching the Chiefs if I were THAT negative. I've been watching the Chiefs for 20+ years, and never have been that negative. What good does it do?
Posted via Mobile Device

Reerun_KC
07-22-2010, 10:10 AM
I can understand that. I guess I am somewhere in the middle. It would be extremely hard for me to have any enjoyment watching the Chiefs if I were THAT negative. I've been watching the Chiefs for 20+ years, and never have been that negative. What good does it do?
Posted via Mobile Device

I went through the negative stint when Herm was hired... But it can only last so long...

Shit I havent been this excited about the Chiefs, since... Well opening day of last year.....

KCrockaholic
07-22-2010, 11:16 AM
I haven't been this excited about the Chiefs since Dicky's last season.

The whole Herm thing is just a wash now. I'll pretend it never happened.

Reerun_KC
07-22-2010, 11:26 AM
I haven't been this excited about the Chiefs since Dicky's last season.

The whole Herm thing is just a wash now. I'll pretend it never happened.

I will vote this for post of the year!

There is life among the fanbase and the team again.

rambleonthruthefog
07-22-2010, 11:26 AM
being positive bout the chiefs is just my nature. hell, i was positive going into herms 2nd season even though i hated herm. i brought that positivity to CP during the wrong time. herm and CP largely cured my positivity over the past couple seasons. the chiefs new brass has me feeling good about the future though. even tyson jackson, dj, and fuck off, mark castle.

OnTheWarpath58
07-22-2010, 01:09 PM
Sometimes I ask myself if you truly believe some of the shit you post, or if you do it just to get a reaction. This post above is completely idiotic.

The bottom line is that it truly must be tough for you during football season
Posted via Mobile Device

In your opinion, the post you quoted is idiotic.

To me, getting 8 sacks a year doesn't make up for the absolute abortion Hali is against the run.

Problem is, we don't have anyone better. That's on Pioli.

Football season isn't tough for me at all. I'm not the one with retarded expectations who ends up disappointed year after year.

OnTheWarpath58
07-22-2010, 01:18 PM
I think it is just easier to be negative and pissy all the time... This way your not let down when they dont succeed...

Its the "sit back and I told you so" syndrome...

You of all people have no fucking room to talk.

You were the most non-objective person on this board during Herm's time here.

What some of you fail to see is that I'm not negative all the time. Not even close.

Hell, I'm one of the few people on this board that think Bowe's drops are being completely overblown.

I'm calling it as I see it, just like I've done for the 5 years I've been here.

Right now, there isn't a lot of positive - though people want to HOPE that there is. People would rather make shit up to feel better about the team. I'm not the type that's going to sit around here and give Hali credit (as an example) for being a solid LB when he's not, just because I HOPE he'll get better against the run.

He's going to actually have to get significantly better against the run before I consider him an average LB.

Some of you think that 8 sacks a year and piss poor run defense equals average play. Not me.

I'm not trying to piss on anyone's parade. I just don't have a problem with talking about all aspects of the team rather than just focusing on the part that makes everyone feel excited.

Like I said earlier, if you don't like it, don't read it. Enjoy your Kool-Aid.

OnTheWarpath58
07-22-2010, 01:22 PM
I can understand that. I guess I am somewhere in the middle. It would be extremely hard for me to have any enjoyment watching the Chiefs if I were THAT negative. I've been watching the Chiefs for 20+ years, and never have been that negative. What good does it do?
Posted via Mobile Device

What good does it do to completely bullshit yourself into thinking the team is something they're not?

Why not just be honest with yourself?

And for the record, I get plenty of enjoyment out of the Chiefs, and the NFL in general. Ask Tiny and Clayton. They say with me for the Cowboys game, and I'll guarantee that both were expecting something else from me - and didn't get it.

I don't get upset anymore. I used to, when DV's circus offense was being wasted by the shitty D he put together.

Now, it is what it is. I go into a season with realistic expectations, and whatever happens, happens.

That doesn't mean I have no right to express my opinion on the on-field play or off-field decision making.

People think I just scream at my monitor when I post, or scream at the TV when the game is on.

Couldn't be further from the truth.

Reerun_KC
07-22-2010, 01:28 PM
ROFL at the irony!

Slainte
07-22-2010, 01:28 PM
I typically stand behind them in line at the ATM and smile at them reassuringly if they feel a little nervous. My Valentino suits and perfect teeth usually are enough to soothe any anxiety before I take them back to my apartment over looking the Park, where I have my way with them.

:facepalm:

Yet another lame American Psycho quoter. Please stop. It's not cool anymore.

P.S. It never was.

Reerun_KC
07-22-2010, 01:29 PM
You of all people have no ****ing room to talk.

You were the most non-objective person on this board during Herm's time here.



I went through the negative stint when Herm was hired... But it can only last so long...

Shit I havent been this excited about the Chiefs, since... Well opening day of last year.....

:doh!:

OnTheWarpath58
07-22-2010, 01:32 PM
:doh!:

And?

Admitting it doesn't make it better. Though you are right about one thing: it can only last so long.

Eventually, hopefully sooner rather than later, this team will improve, and there will be more positive than negative to talk about. There's not much positive to talk about when discussing a team that's won 10 games in 3 years - unless you're making shit up, like some do around here.

But you missed something key: You were negative for the sake of being negative. You've admitted on several occasions that you were not objective at all when it came to Herm.

I challenge anyone to come up with a subject that I've been negative about that I'm not being objective.

We can start with Hali if you like.

Is he, or is he not shitty against the run?

rambleonthruthefog
07-22-2010, 01:44 PM
And?

Admitting it doesn't make it better. Though you are right about one thing: it can only last so long.

Eventually, hopefully sooner rather than later, this team will improve, and there will be more positive than negative to talk about. There's not much positive to talk about when discussing a team that's won 10 games in 3 years - unless you're making shit up, like some do around here.

But you missed something key: You were negative for the sake of being negative. You've admitted on several occasions that you were not objective at all when it came to Herm.

I challenge anyone to come up with a subject that I've been negative about that I'm not being objective.

We can start with Hali if you like.

Is he, or is he not shitty against the run?

you're not wrong, you're just an asshole

Detoxing
07-22-2010, 01:49 PM
Sweet!

The Draftabulators vs the True Fans again!

IT MUST BE FOOTBALL SEASON!!!!!!!!

Reerun_KC
07-22-2010, 01:55 PM
Sweet!

The Draftabulators vs the True Fans again!

IT MUST BE FOOTBALL SEASON!!!!!!!!
:D