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View Full Version : Chiefs Chiefs look at another NT?


the Talking Can
08-11-2010, 07:11 AM
http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/Kendrick-Clancy-drawing-interest-from-Chiefs-Texans-and-Saints.html

Veteran nose guard Kendrick Clancy is healthy again and has drawn interest from the Kansas City Chiefs, Houston Texans and the New Orleans Saints, according to his agent, Ron Del Duca.

"He'll be playing somwhere soon," Del Duca indicated via his Twitter account. "Decision soon."

Clancy had surgery on his knee, but has recovered from the injury, per Del Duca.

Clancy, 31, played for the Saints for the past three seasons.

The 6-foot-1, 305-pound former Pittsburgh Steelers third-round draft pick has recorded 139 tackles, three forced fumbles and 5 1/2 sacks.

He was limited to two games last season because of the knee injury.

philfree
08-11-2010, 07:16 AM
http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/Kendrick-Clancy-drawing-interest-from-Chiefs-Texans-and-Saints.html

Just do it.


PhilFree:arrow:

ArrowheadHawk
08-11-2010, 07:36 AM
Do it.

tomahawk kid
08-11-2010, 07:37 AM
Yesterday if he's healthy.

Bwana
08-11-2010, 07:53 AM
Yesterday if he's healthy.

This...."if."

milkman
08-11-2010, 08:03 AM
I guess we still need one since our big free agent NT signing, Shaun Smith is not even listed on the unofficial depth chart at NT.

DeezNutz
08-11-2010, 08:06 AM
Probably the most overrated position in a 34. We're fine.

Process, motherfuckers, can you trust it?

boogblaster
08-11-2010, 08:06 AM
guess ratty-face wont need him in washington

the Talking Can
08-11-2010, 08:19 AM
Probably the most overrated position in a 34. We're fine.

Process, mother****ers, can you trust it?

nickle corner is much more important to a 3-4 than NT...most people don't understand this...


it is also much harder to find a nickle corner than a NT...you can get NT's anywhere....people with the right shortness to play nickle corner are extremely rare...

DeezNutz
08-11-2010, 08:26 AM
nickle corner is much more important to a 3-4 than NT...most people don't understand this...


it is also much harder to find a nickle corner than a NT...you can get NT's anywhere....people with the right shortness to play nickle corner are extremely rare...

All good points. And the fact that our new nickle corner is, allegedly, having a GREAT camp, not sucking shit and repeatedly getting burned, makes me even more comfortable with the selection.

Oh, and he can return kicks!!!!

tomahawk kid
08-11-2010, 08:40 AM
Anyone know anything about this guys specifically?

Sounds like a big body, which is just what we need.

the Talking Can
08-11-2010, 08:41 AM
Anyone know anything about this guys specifically?

Sounds like a big body, which is just what we need.

sounds like a broke down piece of trash....we don't need another "big body"...we need a good NT

tomahawk kid
08-11-2010, 08:44 AM
sounds like a broke down piece of trash....we don't need another "big body"...we need a good NT

:)

Agreed, but I'd take a "big body" at this point.

DeezNutz
08-11-2010, 08:50 AM
sounds like a broke down piece of trash....we don't need another "big body"...we need a good NT

It's not about the best...

milkman
08-11-2010, 08:52 AM
:)

Agreed, but I'd take a "big body" at this point.

I'd feel better about it if that big body was about 30 lbs bigger.

milkman
08-11-2010, 08:53 AM
It's not about the best...

It's a process, and this guy needs to eat some food with some fat processed in it.

DeezNutz
08-11-2010, 08:55 AM
It's a process, and this guy needs to eat some food with some fat processed in it.

Well played.

ChiTown
08-11-2010, 08:56 AM
sounds like a broke down piece of trash....we don't need another "big body"...we need a good NT

It would be awfully nice to have a true 0 Tech NT to anchor a 3-4 Line. Right now, we have a bunch 1 Gapr's trying to play the spot. Clancy would not help this situation out.

Otter
08-11-2010, 09:03 AM
Anyone know anything about this guys specifically?

Sounds like a big body, which is just what we need.

Carl "I love the smell of mediocrity on a brisk Sunday Morning" Peterson?

OnTheWarpath58
08-11-2010, 09:24 AM
I guess we still need one since our big free agent NT signing, Shaun Smith is not even listed on the unofficial depth chart at NT.

Probably the most overrated position in a 34. We're fine.

Process, motherfuckers, can you trust it?

nickle corner is much more important to a 3-4 than NT...most people don't understand this...


it is also much harder to find a nickle corner than a NT...you can get NT's anywhere....people with the right shortness to play nickle corner are extremely rare...

All good points. And the fact that our new nickle corner is, allegedly, having a GREAT camp, not sucking shit and repeatedly getting burned, makes me even more comfortable with the selection.

Oh, and he can return kicks!!!!

sounds like a broke down piece of trash....we don't need another "big body"...we need a good NT

It's not about the best...

I'd feel better about it if that big body was about 30 lbs bigger.

It's a process, and this guy needs to eat some food with some fat processed in it.

Well played.

ROFL

Looks like you guys have this covered.

SDChiefs
08-11-2010, 09:25 AM
Maybe Pioli had intentions of starting Arenas at NT. Like when he drafted DMC it was with the intention of him playing in the slot.

tomahawk kid
08-11-2010, 09:33 AM
Carl "I love the smell of mediocrity on a brisk Sunday Morning" Peterson?

yes - I was brainwashed as a teenager. :)

chiefzilla1501
08-11-2010, 12:15 PM
sounds like a broke down piece of trash....we don't need another "big body"...we need a good NT

I'd settle for a stopgap to buy us 2 years to bring in or develop a replacement. We're not winning any championships in the next 2 seasons, regardless of who we put at 0 tech. Why all the panic to have one today, right at this moment?

mcaj22
08-11-2010, 12:17 PM
sign him please, don't care at this point anyone is an upgrade.

Jawshco
08-11-2010, 12:35 PM
ROFL

Looks like you guys have this covered.

This!

I think I've reached my daily allowance of sarcasm just from reading this thread.

My contribution: We should definitely bring this guy in for a look to see how much he has left in the tank.

the Talking Can
08-11-2010, 12:37 PM
I'd settle for a stopgap to buy us 2 years to bring in or develop a replacement. We're not winning any championships in the next 2 seasons, regardless of who we put at 0 tech. Why all the panic to have one today, right at this moment?

right, why is anyone concerned that we will be move into year 3 of a switch to a 3-4 and we still won't have a NT good enough to keep us from sniffing around old broken down street trash...


everyone knows you can find NTs anywhere at the exact time you need them, no need to plan...I'm sure we don't need a NT until - as you put it - year 5 (2 years from now)

in the meantime, our run defense sucking ass and the center of our defense being weak will have no effect on our defense's performance, development, or morale...

chiefzilla1501
08-11-2010, 01:37 PM
right, why is anyone concerned that we will be move into year 3 of a switch to a 3-4 and we still won't have a NT good enough to keep us from sniffing around old broken down street trash...


everyone knows you can find NTs anywhere at the exact time you need them, no need to plan...I'm sure we don't need a NT until - as you put it - year 5 (2 years from now)

in the meantime, our run defense sucking ass and the center of our defense being weak will have no effect on our defense's performance, development, or morale...

Dude, you're acting like the NT this year is going to be the difference between a playoff team and a non-playoff team. It's not. The team needed help everywhere. It's absolutely stupid for a building team to walk into the draft with tunnel vision. Isn't that exactly the thing that got them in trouble last season? They were so focused on bringing in a 5-technique that they didn't care if they reached for him.

And while the position is vitally important, people exaggerate how difficult it is to find a NOse Tackle. They're among the lowest paid players in the league which tells you a lot.

rambleonthruthefog
08-11-2010, 01:38 PM
right, why is anyone concerned that we will be move into year 3 of a switch to a 3-4 and we still won't have a NT good enough to keep us from sniffing around old broken down street trash...


everyone knows you can find NTs anywhere at the exact time you need them, no need to plan...I'm sure we don't need a NT until - as you put it - year 5 (2 years from now)

in the meantime, our run defense sucking ass and the center of our defense being weak will have no effect on our defense's performance, development, or morale...

thought this was year two of the 34 switch. herm was running a 43 in 08, no?

the Talking Can
08-11-2010, 01:58 PM
thought this was year two of the 34 switch. herm was running a 43 in 08, no?

yeah my math is off a year...i meant we'd be moving into next year - year 3 - still looking for a NT...2 years from now would be year 4 - not 5 as i stated..

chiefzilla1501
08-11-2010, 02:16 PM
yeah my math is off a year...i meant we'd be moving into next year - year 3 - still looking for a NT...2 years from now would be year 4 - not 5 as i stated..

And it's a valid point. But the team as a whole is not ready to compete, NT or not. Part of that is b/c we fucked up in year 1 and did virtually nothing. Another part is that I'm not sure if we should have ever switched to a 3-4. Another is that we might have screwed up the QB decision. Another large part is that this was an uncapped year--bad time to need a lot of different pieces.

With those considerations in mind, I'm comfortable w/what the Chiefs did. They took the players they thought were the BPA, not drafting based on positional need. Yeah, I'm worried about the NT position, but I don't why the Chiefs couldn't be a player for an Abreyo Franklin either right now in a trade or next year even. Or get a stopgap veteran. Meanwhile, you bring in a young NT to groom. When I look at Green Bay, SF, the Jets (even minus Kris Jenkins)... lots of teams have solved their NT problem extremely fast. I'm actually a lot more worried about getting a legit pass rusher than I am a NT.

DeezNutz
08-11-2010, 02:22 PM
And it's a valid point. But the team as a whole is not ready to compete, NT or not. Part of that is b/c we ****ed up in year 1 and did virtually nothing. Another part is that I'm not sure if we should have ever switched to a 3-4. Another is that we might have screwed up the QB decision. Another large part is that this was an uncapped year--bad time to need a lot of different pieces.

With those considerations in mind, I'm comfortable w/what the Chiefs did. They took the players they thought were the BPA, not drafting based on positional need. Yeah, I'm worried about the NT position, but I don't why the Chiefs couldn't be a player for an Abreyo Franklin either right now in a trade or next year even. Or get a stopgap veteran. Meanwhile, you bring in a young NT to groom. When I look at Green Bay, SF, the Jets (even minus Kris Jenkins)... lots of teams have solved their NT problem extremely fast. I'm actually a lot more worried about getting a legit pass rusher than I am a NT.

Define "compete." Win a SB or even challenge for one? No, not even close.

But we should "compete" in the sense that we should be on the fringe of the "playoff picture," even late in the season. 8-8ish.

BossChief
08-11-2010, 02:34 PM
Well, we sure didn't draft so much for need as much as for talent, that's for sure.

the Talking Can
08-11-2010, 02:38 PM
And it's a valid point. But the team as a whole is not ready to compete, NT or not. Part of that is b/c we ****ed up in year 1 and did virtually nothing. Another part is that I'm not sure if we should have ever switched to a 3-4. Another is that we might have screwed up the QB decision. Another large part is that this was an uncapped year--bad time to need a lot of different pieces.

With those considerations in mind, I'm comfortable w/what the Chiefs did. They took the players they thought were the BPA, not drafting based on positional need. Yeah, I'm worried about the NT position, but I don't why the Chiefs couldn't be a player for an Abreyo Franklin either right now in a trade or next year even. Or get a stopgap veteran. Meanwhile, you bring in a young NT to groom. When I look at Green Bay, SF, the Jets (even minus Kris Jenkins)... lots of teams have solved their NT problem extremely fast. I'm actually a lot more worried about getting a legit pass rusher than I am a NT.

being ready to compete is irrelevant, imo

it's about building your 3-4 backwards....not having a NT has repercussions, it dramatically affects the DL and LBs performance...how do you build a winning defense, how do you develop/judge players and group cohesion when you're getting torn apart in the middle of your defense?

if finding a NT was as easy as you suggest, I'd wager they'd have done it by now...

NT and QB....we'll still be looking for 2 of the most important positions on each side of the ball in a year...you can't be 'ready to compete' without them...

just wasted fucking time

RustShack
08-11-2010, 02:48 PM
It is funny that people complain that we are deprived of talent. Then when we draft for talent like they want, they bitch because we didn't draft for need which they were against. Though all the positions we filled were need, just not biggest need.

the Talking Can
08-11-2010, 02:55 PM
It is funny that people complain that we are deprived of talent. Then when we draft for talent like they want, they bitch because we didn't draft for need which they were against. Though all the positions we filled were need, just not biggest need.

thanks for straw man argument

anyone arguing for drafting a NT over a nickle CB is obviously just playing some cynical game because they really just want to complain, unlike you and your fellow travelers with such pure and honest and right motives and opinions

....they couldn't actually believe what they're saying or have genuine and well thought out reasons for it...or have different interpretations of the word 'talent'...or any of that...nope, they disagree with you so they must just love complaining....

mcaj22
08-11-2010, 03:06 PM
A good NT is the difference between having an okay to good run defense versus having one of the worst run defenses in the NFL.

I'd say it could decide 3 or 4 games. If we had a good dominant NT we wouldn't be putting some nobody running back on teams like the Browns on the map giving them career days. We win those games with an Abrayu Franklin, Vince Wilfork, Jay Ratliff... etc


look at the 3-4 defense NTs around the league:

Cowboys - Jay Ratliff
49ers - Abrayu Franklin
Packers - BJ Raji/Ryan Pickett
Ravens - Kelly Gregg/Haloti Ngata
Steelers - Casey Hampton
Jets - Kris Jenkins
Cardinals - Dan Williams... ...
Chargers - Nwagbuo/Cam Thomas
Dolphins - Randy Starks
Patriots - Vince Wilfork
Donks - Jamal Williams

and what do we have? Ron Edwards and Shaun Smith? Absolutely bottom of the barrel when compared to the rest of the league, at least the teams without an all-pro at the position went young with upside(Dan Williams, Cam Thomas, etc). Of course we couldn't do that, because I guess defense isn't that important, my television telling me how half of this list of players got the franchise tag by their teams this offseason isn't an indicator of that or anything.

googlegoogle
08-11-2010, 03:08 PM
Anyone know how the 3 NT that went in the second are doing?

mcaj22
08-11-2010, 03:22 PM
Anyone know how the 3 NT that went in the second are doing?



only NTs in the second round that went to 3-4 defenses were Cody (Ravens) and Mike Neal (Packers). Two teams that tend to stock pile their defensive line depth to avoid the problems us Chiefs have. But I guess that's why they are good.

The other DTs taken in the 2nd went to 4-3 teams: Joseph (Giants), Price (Bucs), Troup (Billls), Houston (Raiders).
-These four guys all have legit chances to start from day 1 on these teams except maybe Houston.

that's 6, well 5 DTs we had a legit shot at in the 2nd and passed on, some twice, for the running joke...a nickel corner.

I'd imagine at least half this list of lineman makes an impact on the league down the road, whether it be starting, pro bowl, anchoring a top defense, etc. Evaluating this a few years down the road will be interesting.

RustShack
08-11-2010, 03:27 PM
I thought the Bills and Giants were switching to the 3-4...

Just Passin' By
08-11-2010, 03:32 PM
thanks for straw man argument

anyone arguing for drafting a NT over a nickle CB is obviously just playing some cynical game because they really just want to complain, unlike you and your fellow travelers with such pure and honest and right motives and opinions

....they couldn't actually believe what they're saying or have genuine and well thought out reasons for it...or have different interpretations of the word 'talent'...or any of that...nope, they disagree with you so they must just love complaining....

Serious question: In your opinion, what NT (that the team has passed on) has shown that decision to be anything approaching a mistake?

I expected the team to draft Raji, for example, but he was no great shakes as a rookie.

mcaj22
08-11-2010, 03:39 PM
I thought the Bills and Giants were switching to the 3-4...


Oh wow yeah I guess so, and the Bills are experimenting with Kyle Williams as their starting NT, which he has never done before. Troup is 2nd string rotational guy that will probably play NT just as much this season.

And there is no way the Giants play a 3-4.

RustShack
08-11-2010, 03:42 PM
You will get the, it takes time to develop argument, even though to them that rule doesn't count for Tyson Jackson.

Mike in SW-MO
08-11-2010, 03:51 PM
At 6-1 and 305, sounds more like a defensive end than a NT to me. Could we be looking at competition for Tyson Jackson at DE.

RustShack
08-11-2010, 03:52 PM
At 6-1 and 305, sounds more like a defensive end than a NT to me. Could we be looking at competition for Tyson Jackson at DE.

At 6'1" he doesn't sound like a DE at all.

milkman
08-11-2010, 03:54 PM
You will get the, it takes time to develop argument, even though to them that rule doesn't count for Tyson Jackson.

That argument even applies to Jackson.

The problem is that Jackson showed absolutely nothing, where most show signs of talent.

Even Ryan Sims flashed.

milkman
08-11-2010, 03:55 PM
At 6'1" he doesn't sound like a DE at all.

Hello.

Glen Dorsey.

Ever hear of him?

Just Passin' By
08-11-2010, 03:55 PM
Oh wow yeah I guess so, and the Bills are experimenting with Kyle Williams as their starting NT, which he has never done before. Troup is 2nd string rotational guy that will probably play NT just as much this season.

And there is no way the Giants play a 3-4.

Maybe he meant the Redskins, with Haynesworth moving to NT?

RustShack
08-11-2010, 03:57 PM
Jackson didn't show any flashes the first seven games. There were also some instances where we were completely dominated by the running game, interestingly enough it was generally when he wasn't on the field or to the other side(when Dorsey wasn't on the field). Now he might not live up to top three draft status, but they generally never do. I have no doubt he will be playing like a great first round pick in year three though, especially because he now has Crennel and a coach like Haley pushing him.

RustShack
08-11-2010, 03:58 PM
Hello.

Glen Dorsey.

Ever hear of him?

Yeah the exception, not the rule. Even then, he hasn't played like a great DE.. YET.

milkman
08-11-2010, 04:03 PM
Jackson didn't show any flashes the first seven games. There were also some instances where we were completely dominated by the running game, interestingly enough it was generally when he wasn't on the field or to the other side(when Dorsey wasn't on the field). Now he might not live up to top three draft status, but they generally never do. I have no doubt he will be playing like a great first round pick in year three though, especially because he now has Crennel and a coach like Haley pushing him.

:facepalm:

RustShack
08-11-2010, 04:06 PM
Kinda like the old, innocent until proven guilty. Can't call him a bust for at least a few more years.

rambleonthruthefog
08-11-2010, 04:06 PM
Jackson didn't show any flashes the first seven games. There were also some instances where we were completely dominated by the running game, interestingly enough it was generally when he wasn't on the field or to the other side(when Dorsey wasn't on the field). Now he might not live up to top three draft status, but they generally never do. I have no doubt he will be playing like a great first round pick in year three though, especially because he now has Crennel and a coach like Haley pushing him.

i heard his career is gonna be a complete joke, a backup at best. might as well cut him now and bring in McClouds fat mother. i heard she can take triple teams like a pro.

RedThat
08-11-2010, 04:08 PM
Championship!

rambleonthruthefog
08-11-2010, 04:08 PM
wait......i heard that on the spankwire mssg board. we should keep jackson for a couple more years.

milkman
08-11-2010, 04:12 PM
Kinda like the old, innocent until proven guilty. Can't call him a bust for at least a few more years.

He's in his second year, and should, at the very least, being showing some kind of flash in camp.

Every objective report tells us he is crap.

He's doing so damn well that they've got him taking 3rd team reps.

I watched a camp video, and in two plays that he was visible, he was absolutely getting owned by Ryan O'Callagan.

Sure-Oz
08-11-2010, 04:26 PM
If his agent mentioned us he won't be signed

RedThat
08-11-2010, 04:29 PM
He's in his second year, and should, at the very least, being showing some kind of flash in camp.

Every objective report tells us he is crap.

He's doing so damn well that they've got him taking 3rd team reps.

I watched a camp video, and in two plays that he was visible, he was absolutely getting owned by Ryan O'Callagan.

That is not good news.

mcaj22
08-11-2010, 04:34 PM
aren't there a few 6 foot 1 to 6 foot 3 small defensive lineman in 3-4 defenses, for depth and versatility? I think there are guys on some of these teams that can play every position on the line if need be, and aren't some tall monster.

Glenn Dorsey certainly isn't the exception.

chiefzilla1501
08-11-2010, 06:48 PM
thanks for straw man argument

anyone arguing for drafting a NT over a nickle CB is obviously just playing some cynical game because they really just want to complain, unlike you and your fellow travelers with such pure and honest and right motives and opinions

....they couldn't actually believe what they're saying or have genuine and well thought out reasons for it...or have different interpretations of the word 'talent'...or any of that...nope, they disagree with you so they must just love complaining....

You are making an ENORMOUS leap in assumption that any of the Nose Tackles we were seriously considering at that low second round pick are worth their salt. It's again going back to the whole drafting for need vs. drafting the guy you like best argument.

chiefzilla1501
08-11-2010, 07:02 PM
Somehow Nose Tackle got hyped up to be this Holy Grail position that is so impossible to find good talent to play. First of all, look at their salaries--if they're so important, why do they get paid peanuts? Second, think about what most of those teams did to get their NTs. The Broncos signed Williams practically for free. The Jets gave up almost nothing to pick up a 4-3 DT many thought was washed up. And when the Jets ended up losing Jenkins last season, they didn't miss a beat. The Packers converted Ryan Pickett from an average 4-3 DT into a very solid NT. Who the fuck was Aubrayo Franklin before he went to the 49ers in a 4-3?

I wish the Chiefs got better NTs in 2010 b/c our current NTs are dogshit. Granted. But I don't understand the argument that we should "settle" for a NT we don't highly value in order to fill a position of need. The only NT I would have considered in the draft is Troup (at the position he was drafted at), but I think where Buffalo drafted him caught everyone by surprise.


A good NT is the difference between having an okay to good run defense versus having one of the worst run defenses in the NFL.

I'd say it could decide 3 or 4 games. If we had a good dominant NT we wouldn't be putting some nobody running back on teams like the Browns on the map giving them career days. We win those games with an Abrayu Franklin, Vince Wilfork, Jay Ratliff... etc


look at the 3-4 defense NTs around the league:

Cowboys - Jay Ratliff
49ers - Abrayu Franklin
Packers - BJ Raji/Ryan Pickett
Ravens - Kelly Gregg/Haloti Ngata
Steelers - Casey Hampton
Jets - Kris Jenkins
Cardinals - Dan Williams... ...
Chargers - Nwagbuo/Cam Thomas
Dolphins - Randy Starks
Patriots - Vince Wilfork
Donks - Jamal Williams

and what do we have? Ron Edwards and Shaun Smith? Absolutely bottom of the barrel when compared to the rest of the league, at least the teams without an all-pro at the position went young with upside(Dan Williams, Cam Thomas, etc). Of course we couldn't do that, because I guess defense isn't that important, my television telling me how half of this list of players got the franchise tag by their teams this offseason isn't an indicator of that or anything.

milkman
08-11-2010, 07:14 PM
Somehow Nose Tackle got hyped up to be this Holy Grail position that is so impossible to find good talent to play. First of all, look at their salaries--if they're so important, why do they get paid peanuts? Second, think about what most of those teams did to get their NTs. The Broncos signed Williams practically for free. The Jets gave up almost nothing to pick up a 4-3 DT many thought was washed up. And when the Jets ended up losing Jenkins last season, they didn't miss a beat. The Packers converted Ryan Pickett from an average 4-3 DT into a very solid NT. Who the **** was Aubrayo Franklin before he went to the 49ers in a 4-3?

I wish the Chiefs got better NTs in 2010 b/c our current NTs are dogshit. Granted. But I don't understand the argument that we should "settle" for a NT we don't highly value in order to fill a position of need. The only NT I would have considered in the draft is Troup (at the position he was drafted at), but I think where Buffalo drafted him caught everyone by surprise.

Who's settling?

I didn't want Terrence Cody because I was settling.

I wanted him because he's huge, and is incredibly quick and athletic for a man his size.

The big men who man the middle of a 34 aren't giant fatasses because they have a strong work ethic, but they do their jobs, and do it well.

I wanted Cody because I believe he's going to be a difference making NT in the NFL.

chiefzilla1501
08-11-2010, 07:19 PM
Who's settling?

I didn't want Terrence Cody because I was settling.

I wanted him because he's huge, and is incredibly quick and athletic for a man his size.

The big men who man the middle of a 34 aren't giant fatasses because they have a strong work ethic, but they do their jobs, and do it well.

I wanted Cody because I believe he's going to be a difference making NT in the NFL.

I disagree on the work ethic. You can't just have a fatass to eat up space. You need a guy who has the energy to continually take on 2-3 blockers and immediately get popped in the face as soon as the ball is snapped. I would argue that the position requires a lot more stamina/will than it does talent.

I just don't see Cody as being a guy who can finish games as a 3-4 NT if he doesn't prove he can stay in some semblance of shape. He's going to be challenged to use a ton more energy than he ever did in college.

milkman
08-11-2010, 07:23 PM
I disagree on the work ethic. You can't just have a fatass to eat up space. You need a guy who has the energy to continually take on 2-3 blockers and immediately get popped in the face as soon as the ball is snapped. I would argue that the position requires a lot more stamina/will than it does talent.

I just don't see Cody as being a guy who can finish games as a 3-4 NT if he doesn't prove he can stay in some semblance of shape. He's going to be challenged to use a ton more energy than he ever did in college.

As usual, we disagree.

Sure, he's going to have to improve his work habits, but just like every fat ass, he's not going to work at continuously.

He's going to do what he has to do, and no more.

RustShack
08-11-2010, 07:26 PM
Kinda like Tyson Jackson, and Derrick Johnson. They have the talent to be real good and great. But they don't have the work ethic. They do the minimum to get by.

the Talking Can
08-11-2010, 07:45 PM
love the 'NTs are easy to find' meme developing here



love to revisit it next year.....

RustShack
08-11-2010, 07:46 PM
Keep doubting SHAUN SMITH!

mcaj22
08-11-2010, 07:55 PM
Somehow Nose Tackle got hyped up to be this Holy Grail position that is so impossible to find good talent to play. First of all, look at their salaries--if they're so important, why do they get paid peanuts? Second, think about what most of those teams did to get their NTs. The Broncos signed Williams practically for free. The Jets gave up almost nothing to pick up a 4-3 DT many thought was washed up. And when the Jets ended up losing Jenkins last season, they didn't miss a beat. The Packers converted Ryan Pickett from an average 4-3 DT into a very solid NT. Who the **** was Aubrayo Franklin before he went to the 49ers in a 4-3?

I wish the Chiefs got better NTs in 2010 b/c our current NTs are dogshit. Granted. But I don't understand the argument that we should "settle" for a NT we don't highly value in order to fill a position of need. The only NT I would have considered in the draft is Troup (at the position he was drafted at), but I think where Buffalo drafted him caught everyone by surprise.


Vince Wilfork just signed for 5 years 40 million... with 25 million guaranteed and an 18 million dollar signing bonus. Peanuts? This position is underrated for that reason, these NTs want to be paid, but teams just keep giving them the franchise tender to avoid the Wilfork type contract, because let's face it most teams want to put that kind of money into sexy positions. NT is not a sexy position like a CB, WR, etc, but it is an important position for a 3-4 defense.

The numbers for these NTs being franchised are also skewed with the average salaries for a DT with the 4-3 teams, so it's tenfold cheaper for FOs to keep tendering their NTs and then running them into the ground for a season. Hence why there is a lock out looming, I'm sure one of the issues players will be bringing up is the Franchise Tender for this very reason.

Also for the record Ryan Pickett was a first round draft pick that eventually ended up in a good system on a good franchise, so I don't see how he's a nobody, if it was our first round draft pick coming into his own people wouldn't care that he came from nowhere.

Abrayu Franklin came from the Ravens depth chart where they churn out NTs and good defensive lineman like Hershey's makes chocolate.

I don't see how you can say these guys are nobodies, they learned a system and have good players around them. That makes them a good player. Who the hell was Jay Ratliff prior to 2008? A 7th round draft pick that sat behind Jason Furguson for a couple years. But ya know having Demarcus Ware and company as teammates all you need to be is big and strong, which is what he is.

milkman
08-11-2010, 07:58 PM
Kinda like Tyson Jackson, and Derrick Johnson. They have the talent to be real good and great. But they don't have the work ethic. They do the minimum to get by.

No, it's not kinda like that at all.

Keep doubting SHAUN SMITH!

Yeah, you mean the guy who isn't even listed on the depth chart at NT, but at DE instead?

That Shaun Smith?

chiefzilla1501
08-11-2010, 08:10 PM
love the 'NTs are easy to find' meme developing here



love to revisit it next year.....

You really think the position is hard to find?

Take a really good free agent Nose Tackle on the market. You can buy two of them for the price of one franchise Left Tackle. If it was so difficult to find, teams would pay a premium.

It's an important position. I don't understand why it's being made out to some incredibly difficult position to fill.

the Talking Can
08-11-2010, 08:12 PM
You really think the position is hard to find?

Take a really good free agent Nose Tackle on the market. You can buy two of them for the price of one franchise Left Tackle. If it was so difficult to find, teams would pay a premium.

It's an important position. I don't understand why it's being made out to some incredibly difficult position to fill.

amazing

so next year we'll just bing bang boom and have a NT, like you said....look forward to it...

chiefzilla1501
08-11-2010, 08:21 PM
amazing

so next year we'll just bing bang boom and have a NT, like you said....look forward to it...

JFC, because filling any position is bing bang boom. Right. I'm saying it's a much easier position to fill then QB, LT, 4-3 DE AND DT, shutdown corner, or a stud 3-4 OLB. Arguably a #1 WR. And it's not just me saying this. Look at the ****ing salaries. In the NFL, if you want a free agent, 9 times out of 10 you can get him by paying him more $. What does it say that even teams who badly need Nose Tackles aren't willing to offer the moon to free agents?

the Talking Can
08-11-2010, 08:38 PM
JFC, because filling any position is bing bang boom. Right. I'm saying it's a much easier position to fill then QB, LT, 4-3 DE AND DT, shutdown corner, or a stud 3-4 OLB. Arguably a #1 WR. And it's not just me saying this. Look at the ****ing salaries. In the NFL, if you want a free agent, 9 times out of 10 you can get him by paying him more $. What does it say that even teams who badly need Nose Tackles aren't willing to offer the moon to free agents?

gibberish

it's a hell of lot easier to find a LT than a NT.....same goes for 4-3 DT....

and anyways, the relative salaries have nothing to do with the issue of how easy/hard it is to find a NT, and even less than nothing to do with the specific decisions this franchise has made in the last 2 years...


your're chasing an argument with a lot of confused logic

chiefzilla1501
08-11-2010, 08:46 PM
gibberish

it's a hell of lot easier to find a LT than a NT.....same goes for 4-3 DT....

and anyways, the relative salaries have nothing to do with the issue of how easy/hard it is to find a NT, and even less than nothing to do with the specific decisions this franchise has made in the last 2 years...


your're chasing an argument with a lot of confused logic

Confused logic?

How many marquee picks are used on Nose Tackles?
How many NTs are getting paid above $35M?

Now ask those same questions and plug in "Left Tackle" and "Wide Receiver" and "Quarterback" and "Defensive End" and "Defensive Tackle" and "shutdown CB".

Nose Tackles are lowly drafted and even the best ones get paid a fraction of the amount most superstars make. So they're obviously soooo important that teams that need Nose Tackles don't draft them highly and don't pay them. What's confusing or illogical about that?

milkman
08-11-2010, 08:49 PM
Confused logic?

How many marquee picks are used on Nose Tackles?
How many NTs are getting paid above $35M?

Now ask those same questions and plug in "Left Tackle" and "Wide Receiver" and "Quarterback" and "Defensive End" and "Defensive Tackle" and "shutdown CB".

Nose Tackles are lowly drafted and even the best ones get paid a fraction of the amount most superstars make. So they're obviously soooo important that teams that need Nose Tackles don't draft them highly and don't pay them. What's confusing or illogical about that?

The reason they aren't drafted highly is because everyone of them invariably has work ethic questions.

petegz28
08-11-2010, 08:49 PM
Probably the most overrated position in a 34. We're fine.

Process, mother****ers, can you trust it?

Did Dayton Moore take over the Chiefs too????

chiefzilla1501
08-11-2010, 08:50 PM
gibberish

it's a hell of lot easier to find a LT than a NT.....same goes for 4-3 DT....

and anyways, the relative salaries have nothing to do with the issue of how easy/hard it is to find a NT, and even less than nothing to do with the specific decisions this franchise has made in the last 2 years...


your're chasing an argument with a lot of confused logic

Also, what makes this argument a joke is that Left Tackles in the top 10 who are scouted as top prospects bust at a high rate.

And you're really going to tell me it's easier to find a 4-3 Defensive Tackle who has to have the quickness to rush the passer, the strength to get past interior blockers, and the variety of pass rush moves to boot? That's easier to find than a space eating NT whose primary job is to be big and have the energy to take on 2-3 blockers?

It's a hell of a lot harder to find a multi-dimensional athlete that you need to play 4-3 DT than it is to find a guy whose primary job is to do one thing well.

chiefzilla1501
08-11-2010, 09:05 PM
The reason they aren't drafted highly is because everyone of them invariably has work ethic questions.

But that hasn't stopped teams from using incredibly high picks on a Jamarcus Russel or an Andre Smith or a Trent Williams. I realize that character is more important now than in past years, but teams have taken chances on work ethic guy concerns if the talent level is there. And that shouldn't explain why they almost always drop well out of the top 20 and usually into the second round. And it definitely shouldn't explain why quality Nose Tackles are getting paid half the amount of money as a great player at another position. Wilfork was paid 5 years $40M (which is insanely high for a NT). Asomouagh makes $45M in 3 years. Peppers got paid 6 years $90M. These guys are getting paid TWICE as much as Wilfork.

It's because NTs are largely one-dimensional. You just need big and strong. Most positions, you need big, strong, AND athletic/fast. If you're not big, you better be extraordinarily fast.

milkman
08-11-2010, 09:11 PM
But that hasn't stopped teams from using incredibly high picks on a Jamarcus Russel or an Andre Smith or a Trent Williams. I realize that character is more important now than in past years, but teams have taken chances on work ethic guy concerns if the talent level is there. And that shouldn't explain why they almost always drop well out of the top 20 and usually into the second round. And it definitely shouldn't explain why quality Nose Tackles are getting paid half the amount of money as a great player at another position. Wilfork was paid 5 years $40M (which is insanely high for a NT). Asomouagh makes $45M in 3 years. Peppers got paid 6 years $90M. These guys are getting paid TWICE as much as Wilfork.

It's because NTs are largely one-dimensional. You just need big and strong. Most positions, you need big, strong, AND athletic/fast. If you're not big, you better be extraordinarily fast.

LTs have a high value because they (usually) protect the blindside of the most important position on the field.

And, of course, teams will always take a risk on QB.

But, if you really want to succeed on defense with in a 34, you better have a good NT, or someone like Daryl Revis that allows you to attack the offense without fear of paying a high price for the risk.

chiefzilla1501
08-11-2010, 09:23 PM
LTs have a high value because they (usually) protect the blindside of the most important position on the field.

And, of course, teams will always take a risk on QB.

But, if you really want to succeed on defense with in a 34, you better have a good NT, or someone like Daryl Revis that allows you to attack the offense without fear of paying a high price for the risk.

I'm not doubting that you need it, nor am I doubting that the Chiefs don't have one.

I'm just saying it's a hell of a lot easier to find a good NT than it is to find a good CB (and also a lot of other skill positions) and that's why they're paid so disproportionately different. Even 5-techniques are paid, in many cases, a lot more than good Nose Tackles. Especially in Romeo's scheme, where you aren't going to be asked to nearly as much in the backfield. Our NT's job is going to be to be a 1-dimensional space eater. All you really need is a big guy with strong legs and good leverage who has the motivation to get hit by 700 lbs of blockers on every play. That's a pretty limited skill set, especially for a position that important.

milkman
08-11-2010, 09:28 PM
I'm not doubting that you need it, nor am I doubting that the Chiefs don't have one.

I'm just saying it's a hell of a lot easier to find a good NT than it is to find a good CB (and also a lot of other skill positions) and that's why they're paid so disproportionately different. Even 5-techniques are paid, in many cases, a lot more than good Nose Tackles. Especially in Romeo's scheme, where you aren't going to be asked to nearly as much in the backfield. Our NT's job is going to be to be a 1-dimensional space eater. All you really need is a big guy with strong legs and good leverage who has the motivation to get hit by 700 lbs of blockers on every play. That's a pretty limited skill set, especially for a position that important.

And when the Patriots were winning SBs, they were winning them with scrubs and part timers at CB.

Meanwhile they had that guy with the limited skill set eating up blockers and taking up space, and the defense somehow managed to get things done.

It may be easier to find NTs (a claim I don't necessarily agree with), but it's sure a hell of a lot easier to field a good defense with one than it is without one, and the same can't be said about CB.

milkman
08-11-2010, 09:31 PM
And spin it however you want it, but to argue that a nickleback is more important than a NT is dumbassery at it's finest.

chiefzilla1501
08-11-2010, 09:36 PM
And when the Patriots were winning SBs, they were winning them with scrubs and part timers at CB.

Meanwhile they had that guy with the limited skill set eating up blockers and taking up space, and the defense somehow managed to get things done.

It may be easier to find NTs (a claim I don't necessarily agree with), but it's sure a hell of a lot easier to field a good defense with one than it is without one, and the same can't be said about CB.

I wouldn't say that. At the time Ty Law was one of the best in the game and his replacement was Asante Samuel. Much more importantly, they were insanely talented in the entire front 7, particularly off the edges. Seymour is a 5-technique that can explode in the backfield, and Vrabel and McGinest in their prime were extremely disruptive. They could bring pressure from everywhere on the field.

They still have Wilfork. Where they've taken huge steps downward was losing McGinest and Vrabel getting older. And especially after losing Seymour. That's a pretty good example of a team with a solid NT that continues to get worse on defense b/c of the parts around him.

chiefzilla1501
08-11-2010, 09:37 PM
And spin it however you want it, but to argue that a nickleback is more important than a NT is dumbassery at it's finest.

It isn't dumbassery if you don't like what's on the menu.

BIG K
08-11-2010, 09:41 PM
And when the Patriots were winning SBs, they were winning them with scrubs and part timers at CB.

Meanwhile they had that guy with the limited skill set eating up blockers and taking up space, and the defense somehow managed to get things done.

It may be easier to find NTs (a claim I don't necessarily agree with), but it's sure a hell of a lot easier to field a good defense with one than it is without one, and the same can't be said about CB.

I actually remember some WR filling in at CB during thoses runs, Troy Brown IIRC.....

milkman
08-11-2010, 09:43 PM
I wouldn't say that. At the time Ty Law was one of the best in the game and his replacement was Asante Samuel. Much more importantly, they were insanely talented in the entire front 7, particularly off the edges. Seymour is a 5-technique that can explode in the backfield, and Vrabel and McGinest in their prime were extremely disruptive. They could bring pressure from everywhere on the field.

They still have Wilfork. Where they've taken huge steps downward was losing McGinest and Vrabel getting older. And especially after losing Seymour. That's a pretty good example of a team with a solid NT that continues to get worse on defense b/c of the parts around him.

And they had to use Troy Brown at CB and still won a SB.

And yes, you clearly need other parts around the NT, but the point here is that NTs are far more integral to the success than you try to paint them to be.

Those other guys would have been handcuffed without that fat ass in the middle taking up blocks.

milkman
08-11-2010, 09:45 PM
It isn't dumbassery if you don't like what's on the menu.

And the reason they didn't like what was on the menu is (probably) because of the work ethic issue, something that is always an issue with a fat ass.

It's a circle jerk argument.

chiefzilla1501
08-11-2010, 09:54 PM
And they had to use Troy Brown at CB and still won a SB.

And yes, you clearly need other parts around the NT, but the point here is that NTs are far more integral to the success than you try to paint them to be.

Those other guys would have been handcuffed without that fat ass in the middle taking up blocks.

Vince Wilfork played in that 2004 Super Bowl too. And guess what, he's also been on the squad for years as that defense has progressively gotten a lot worse. They have the fatass in the middle, and their supporting cast can't do jackshit. I think it's a little misguided to give the Nose Tackle THAT much credit for the Pats' Super Bowl success. They also had Rodney Harrison and Ty Law who, at the time, was so good that he was asked to take away an entire half of the field at times. They had McGinest and Vrabel, two OLBs who can put up 10+ sack years. And Richard Seymour, who I believe was by far the biggest difference maker on the Pats. Throw in Bruschi and Ted Johnson, and you have an extremely talented defense. And I'm assuming you're talking about Ted Washington--he's only been to one Super Bowl w/the Pats.

DeezNutz
08-11-2010, 09:55 PM
It isn't dumbassery if you don't like what's on the menu.

This sounds original.

"It's not that I'm against drafting a QB high; it's that I don't like the options in the current class." /every year

chiefzilla1501
08-11-2010, 09:59 PM
And the reason they didn't like what was on the menu is (probably) because of the work ethic issue, something that is always an issue with a fat ass.

It's a circle jerk argument.

The work ethic issue from a weight issue is a little different when you're talking about a guy like Mount Cody. The work ethic from an attitude standpoint is a little different when you're talking about Cam Thomas, a guy who dipped several rounds for supposed character concerns. It's not like we're talking about borderline guys here. We're talking about Nose Tackles who had some very serious knocks on them going into the draft. I'm sorry, but given the guy's production and as you said, the athleticism for his size, there had to be a significant work ethic concern for him to fall way below Troup and Dan Williams.

Like I said, I'd have been more than happy w/a guy like Troup. Even at McCluster's spot. I can see the rationale for taking Cody, but I don't understand anyone who could be outraged at passing on him.

chiefzilla1501
08-11-2010, 09:59 PM
This sounds original.

"It's not that I'm against drafting a QB high; it's that I don't like the options in the current class." /every year

There's a pretty significant difference between a guy rated as a top 5-10 QB prospect and a Nose Tackle who almost ate his way into the third round.

DeezNutz
08-11-2010, 10:02 PM
There's a pretty significant difference between a guy rated as a top 5-10 QB prospect and a Nose Tackle who almost ate his way into the third round.

High-risk, high-reward players. Thus, the most significant difference is that the NT, in this case, would have cost a shit ton less.

DeezNutz
08-11-2010, 10:05 PM
For the record, I'm not outraged at or about anything. I do, however, think the selection of Arenas was dumb as fuck.

Yes, I wanted Clausen at 2A, but I can understand why McCluster was selected. 2B, however, takes quite a few logical leaps to justify.

jspchief
08-11-2010, 10:06 PM
Every team in the league needs a QB, WR, etc. Not every team runs a 3-4.

chiefzilla1501
08-11-2010, 10:12 PM
High-risk, high-reward players. Thus, the most significant difference is that the NT, in this case, would have cost a shit ton less.

Like I said, though, given that Cody was a much better size, has much better athleticism than Williams/Troup, it really begs the question of how much the risk was greater than the reward.

If the Chiefs were convinced he would eat his way out of the league, there's no reason they should be forced to pick him. It's the same logic that pigeonholed the Raiders to the Jamarcus pick, even though there should have been a million red flags that the guy was lazy. I don't know why the Chiefs passed on Cody. But there are a bunch of different reasons and a lot of teams that really could use Nose Tackle help or depth passed on him too.

chiefzilla1501
08-11-2010, 10:17 PM
Every team in the league needs a QB, WR, etc. Not every team runs a 3-4.

If that's the case, then less teams would be competing for a NT and teams that were without options would throw enormous deals at any free agent NT that hit the market. And also, 3-4 OLBs are scheme specific too and continue to make a shitload more money than NTs and get drafted a hell of a lot higher.

We keep talking about how impossible Nose Tackles are to get and yet 3-4 defenses seem to show absolutely no urgency to bring top-flight NOse Tackles in. Doesn't that tell you something?

T-post Tom
08-11-2010, 10:29 PM
A couple more DQ Peanut Buster Parfaits and I'll be ready to hold the middle of the d-line. It's getting close baby!

aturnis
08-11-2010, 11:04 PM
It's really just b/c EVERY team in the NFL has a LT and wants a damned good one! So they have to pay big money in order to compete for their services. Up until recently, only a handful of teams employed true NT's for the 3-4. So there wasn't much of a demand, therefore, no bidding war driving up the prices. Also they were easier to get in the draft beings they didn't fit most 4-3 teams needs to a T, so they weren't taken early.

Now though, half the league runs a 3-4 defense. So the price will be higher during free agency, and the position will be taken higher in the draft. These guys are fairly rare, so teams have to "get while the gettin's good". Just look at this years draft, Troupe was taken earlier than most expected. Bills had to have a NT, and there weren't many to be had.

Supply and demand dictate's a lot of NFL position markets, it's not always value of the position itself. Really though it's a combination of both supply/demand and positional value.

aturnis
08-11-2010, 11:08 PM
Like I said, though, given that Cody was a much better size, has much better athleticism than Williams/Troup, it really begs the question of how much the risk was greater than the reward.

If the Chiefs were convinced he would eat his way out of the league, there's no reason they should be forced to pick him. It's the same logic that pigeonholed the Raiders to the Jamarcus pick, even though there should have been a million red flags that the guy was lazy. I don't know why the Chiefs passed on Cody. But there are a bunch of different reasons and a lot of teams that really could use Nose Tackle help or depth passed on him too.

Do you have any idea how much a fatass like that would lose in St. Joe?

ChiefsCountry
08-12-2010, 12:05 AM
We keep talking about how impossible Nose Tackles are to get and yet 3-4 defenses seem to show absolutely no urgency to bring top-flight NOse Tackles in. Doesn't that tell you something?

The teams that have ran the 3-4 the longest and aren't the copy cats have all used top 20 draft picks on NTs (Pats - Wilfork, Steelers - Hampton, Ravens - Ngata) But nope its not an important positon at all.