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HonestChieffan
08-13-2010, 08:44 PM
One wonders, does Obama have any respect for Americans at all?

Obama defends ground zero mosque plans
Ramadan dinner speech: 'Muslims have the right to practice their religion as anyone else'
video

Obama: 'Muslims have the right to practice their religion as anyone else'

WASHINGTON — President Barack Obama on Friday endorsed plans for a Muslim mosque two blocks from ground zero in New York City, declaring that "Muslims have the same right to practice their religion as anyone else in this country."

Speaking at a White House dinner celebrating the Islamic holy month of Ramadan, Obama said all Americans have the right to worship as they choose.
"That includes the right to build a place of worship and a community center on private property in lower Manhattan, in accordance with local laws and ordinances, Obama said. "This is America, and our commitment to religious freedom must be unshakeable."
Obama emphasized the point as New York City is immersed in a deeply sensitive debate about whether a mosque should be built near the site of the World Trade Center's twin towers.

His remarks drew agreement and vilification.

It was the president's first public remarks about the mosque controversy. The White House previously called the matter solely a local one.
The dinner was attended by over 100 guests, including two Muslim-American congressmen and ambassadors and officials from numerous Muslim nations, including Saudi Arabia and Indonesia.

Obama acknowledged the fiery emotions the planned mosque and cultural center have stoked.

"Ground Zero is, indeed, hallowed ground," the president said.
"But let me be clear: as a citizen, and as president, I believe that Muslims have the right to practice their religion as anyone else in this country. That includes the right to build a place of worship and a community center on private property in lower Manhattan, in accordance with local laws and ordinances.
Obama said Islam is not the enemy, al-Qaida is.

"We must never forget those who we lost so tragically on 9/11, and we must always honor those who led our response to that attack — from the firefighters who charged up smoke-filled staircases, to our troops who are serving in Afghanistan today," he said.
"Our enemies respect no religious freedom. Al Qaida's cause is not Islam — it is a gross distortion of Islam. These are not religious leaders — they're terrorists who murder innocent men, women and children. In fact, al Qaida has killed more Muslims than people of any other religion — and that list of victims includes innocent Muslims who were killed on 9/11."

Obama said that Ramadan is a reminder that Islam has always been part of America.
"The first Muslim ambassador to the United States, from Tunisia, was hosted by President Jefferson, who arranged a sunset dinner for his guest because it was Ramadan — making it the first known iftar at the White House, more than 200 years ago."

The New York mosque would be part of a 13-story, $100 million Islamic center that would feature a 500-seat auditorium, a swimming pool and a gym. It's a project of the Cordoba Initiative, an advocacy group that promotes improved relations between Islam and the West.

Obama's stance runs counter to the opinions of the majority of Americans, according to polls. A CNN/Opinion Research poll released this week found that nearly 70 percent of Americans opposed the mosque plan while just 29 percent approved.
New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg has defended the project and praised Obama's remarks Friday night.

"Two hundred and twenty years ago this week, the Father of Our Country penned his famous letter to the Jewish Community of Newport Rhode Island or, as he called them, 'the Children of the Stock of Abraham.' President Obama's words tonight evoked President Washington's own August reminder that 'all possess alike liberty,'" Bloomberg said.

The Mad Crapper
08-13-2010, 08:50 PM
I heard a gay bar might be opening up next door. Al North is bartending.

2bikemike
08-13-2010, 09:55 PM
I just wish Obama would defend the 2nd ammendment as vigorously as he is the 1st.

alnorth
08-13-2010, 10:24 PM
I heard a gay bar might be opening up next door. Al North is bartending.

Wow. You are a moron. I am not gay. (NTTIAWWT) In an unrelated issue, "Al North" is not my name.

I also believe equal protection rights under the 14th amendment of the constitution apply to minorities and women, so I guess that makes me a black lesbian? That has to be the case since in your world, only queers believe in gay marriage.

Bootlegged
08-14-2010, 06:08 AM
What a shock. I wonder how many times a day he will be laying down a towel and bowing.

I hope someone jams an oar up his ass while he is.

Oucho Cinco
08-14-2010, 08:51 AM
What a shock. I wonder how many times a day he will be laying down a towel and bowing.

I hope someone jams an oar up his ass while he is.

Three times a day so far in the White House in his prayer room.

This morning on CNN RObot was saying that the Constitution dictates that the mosque must be built, or words to that effect.

Repeatedly invoking the nation's founders and examples of religious tolerance from American history, the president argued that national ideals and the Constitution demanded that the project proceed. (http://www.cnn.com/2010/POLITICS/08/13/obama.islamic.center.support/index.html?hpt=T2)

donkhater
08-14-2010, 09:21 AM
I just wish Obama would defend the 2nd ammendment as vigorously as he is the 1st.

I wish he would be consistent about defending the first amendment

healthpellets
08-14-2010, 09:25 AM
again...it's not a religious issue. it's a property rights issue. the sooner you understand that, the better off we'll all be.

healthpellets
08-14-2010, 09:27 AM
I heard a gay bar might be opening up next door. Al North is bartending.

i'm really confused as to how you're not banned. you seem to add so little to every thread.

oh, let me try and predict your response..."November is coming. I know you're scared."

Oucho Cinco
08-14-2010, 09:56 AM
again...it's not a religious issue. it's a property rights issue. the sooner you understand that, the better off we'll all be.

It's less a property issue and more an issue of touting their attack on the U.S. That's purely my opinion but if you check out the U.S. in general there are mosques going up to service 1500 muslims in some areas. There are fewer than 200 muslims in those areas, who is funding the buildings if they are only small?

Islam's goal is world dominance and their law. Has very little to do with religion and much to do with dominance.

BigChiefFan
08-14-2010, 11:59 AM
Obama is right on this issue. We either adhere to freedom of religion or we don't. FREEDOM is ACCEPTING of ALL WALKS OF LIFE and not infringing upon their pursuit of happiness. Freedom isn't a one-sided right given to only a select group of religious people. It's all or nothing. You take the good with the bad.

HonestChieffan
08-14-2010, 12:47 PM
Its not about banning Muslims for goodness sakes its all about the location....the symbolism is just so wrong. I don't know that anyone even the hardline anti muslims on this board say they cannot build a mosque, it the location that is so insulting. They can build it somewhere else.

CoMoChief
08-14-2010, 01:52 PM
I wish he would be consistent about defending the first amendment

BO doesn't give a shit about the consitution.

T-post Tom
08-14-2010, 01:57 PM
Obama mosque dispute: In backing plans, he parts with many Americans
The president has given backing to an Islamic center near ground zero. The Obama mosque support may be well received by the Muslim world, but it will hardly buoy his struggling ratings in US polls.

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Politics/2010/0814/Obama-mosque-dispute-In-backing-plans-he-parts-with-many-Americans

A number of newspaper columnists and even Republicans such as former Bush speechwriter Michael Gerson praised President Obama for his studied affirmation of American religious rights Friday in supporting the building of a mosque just blocks from ground zero. There, more than 2,700 Americans died on Sept. 11, 2001, at the hands of Islamist terrorists.

But the Obama mosque decision – wading into an issue that White House press secretary Robert Gibbs only days earlier had called "a matter for ... the local community to decide" – is also likely to affirm a broadening political view in the United States that the president is out of step with mainstream America. Nearly 70 percent of people feel an Islamic center near ground zero is disrespectful, even deliberately provocative, according to a CNN/Opinion Research poll.

"Ground zero is, indeed, hallowed ground," Obama told attendees at the second annual White House Ramadan dinner Friday night. "But let me be clear: As a citizen, and as president, I believe that Muslims have the right to practice their religion as everyone else in this country. And that includes the right to build a place of worship and a community center on private property in lower Manhattan, in accordance with local laws and ordinances. This is America. And our commitment to religious freedom must be unshakable."

The president is right in hinting that there are legal challenges to the planned $100 million, 13-story Cordoba House community center three blocks from the site of the 9/11 attacks. And the issue has set off a storm of controversy in New York and across America, with former House Speaker Newt Gingrich among those weighing in.

But while Obama and George W. Bush before him have urged Americans to distinguish between Islam and violent jihadism and to step carefully around Muslim sensitivities, the Cordoba House represents for many Americans less a religious-liberties issue and more a lack of respect for those who died on 9/11.

The mosque controversy, argues British commentator Douglas Murray on The Daily Beast website, highlights a central credibility problem for the Islamic world: While Muslim adherents demand respect for the tenets of their religion, they, in the case of the ground zero mosque, have failed to show equal deference for what's been called "the psychological shadow" of the former twin towers.

"It doesn't matter what Muslims believe, anymore than anybody else," Mr. Murray writes. "But it matters how they behave. If the New York mosque is anything to go by, that test at least is being failed by some American Muslims very conspicuously indeed."

By backing the mosque, Obama sided with the imam behind the Cordoba House project, Feisal Abdul Rauf, who is set to leave on a State Department-sponsored goodwill trip to the Middle East. But with the president’s stand, he has parted ways with at least some of those connected to the 9/11 victims.

"Barack Obama has abandoned America at the place where America's heart was broken nine years ago, and where her true values were on display for all to see," said Debra Burlingame, a spokeswoman for some Sept. 11 victims' families and the sister of a pilot killed in the attacks, according to the Associated Press.

Obama's support of the mosque may help the US image in the Muslim world, a key goal of the Obama presidency. But even the president's supporters acknowledge that he'll hardly buoy his struggling ratings in US polls after choosing sides in a project that reverberates so emotionally for millions of Americans.

But establishing a moral path for the country, many argue, is part of a president's responsibility.

"There's little political upside for a President already seen by some as soft on terror, a President whom 1 in 10 Americans insanely believe to be a Muslim, to back the right of this house of worship to locate near the site of the 9/11 attacks. Especially with two-thirds of the public against it," writes the New York Daily News' Joshua Greenman. "He deserves credit for not continuing to sidestep this wrenching question. And for standing on principle."

Bearcat2005
08-14-2010, 02:01 PM
again...it's not a religious issue. it's a property rights issue. the sooner you understand that, the better off we'll all be.

THIS.

Making exceptions to such would be a threat to our constitution. (Not that it keeps the federal government awake at night :rolleyes: )

BO should have never commented on it, given that the federal government has and should not have any say in the issue and politically he does not stand to benefit from it.

orange
08-14-2010, 03:10 PM
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Oucho Cinco
08-14-2010, 04:06 PM
Obama is right on this issue. We either adhere to freedom of religion or we don't. FREEDOM is ACCEPTING of ALL WALKS OF LIFE and not infringing upon their pursuit of happiness. Freedom isn't a one-sided right given to only a select group of religious people. It's all or nothing. You take the good with the bad.

He is not right, the president does not endorse any religion as he has.

The Mad Crapper
08-14-2010, 04:32 PM
One wonders, does Obama have any respect for Americans at all?

Obama defends ground zero mosque plans
Ramadan dinner speech: 'Muslims have the right to practice their religion as anyone else'
video

Obama: 'Muslims have the right to practice their religion as anyone else'

WASHINGTON — President Barack Obama on Friday endorsed plans for a Muslim mosque two blocks from ground zero in New York City, declaring that "Muslims have the same right to practice their religion as anyone else in this country."

Speaking at a White House dinner celebrating the Islamic holy month of Ramadan, Obama said all Americans have the right to worship as they choose.
"That includes the right to build a place of worship and a community center on private property in lower Manhattan, in accordance with local laws and ordinances, Obama said. "This is America, and our commitment to religious freedom must be unshakeable."
Obama emphasized the point as New York City is immersed in a deeply sensitive debate about whether a mosque should be built near the site of the World Trade Center's twin towers.

His remarks drew agreement and vilification.

It was the president's first public remarks about the mosque controversy. The White House previously called the matter solely a local one.
The dinner was attended by over 100 guests, including two Muslim-American congressmen and ambassadors and officials from numerous Muslim nations, including Saudi Arabia and Indonesia.

Obama acknowledged the fiery emotions the planned mosque and cultural center have stoked.

"Ground Zero is, indeed, hallowed ground," the president said.
"But let me be clear: as a citizen, and as president, I believe that Muslims have the right to practice their religion as anyone else in this country. That includes the right to build a place of worship and a community center on private property in lower Manhattan, in accordance with local laws and ordinances.
Obama said Islam is not the enemy, al-Qaida is.

"We must never forget those who we lost so tragically on 9/11, and we must always honor those who led our response to that attack — from the firefighters who charged up smoke-filled staircases, to our troops who are serving in Afghanistan today," he said.
"Our enemies respect no religious freedom. Al Qaida's cause is not Islam — it is a gross distortion of Islam. These are not religious leaders — they're terrorists who murder innocent men, women and children. In fact, al Qaida has killed more Muslims than people of any other religion — and that list of victims includes innocent Muslims who were killed on 9/11."

Obama said that Ramadan is a reminder that Islam has always been part of America.
"The first Muslim ambassador to the United States, from Tunisia, was hosted by President Jefferson, who arranged a sunset dinner for his guest because it was Ramadan — making it the first known iftar at the White House, more than 200 years ago."

The New York mosque would be part of a 13-story, $100 million Islamic center that would feature a 500-seat auditorium, a swimming pool and a gym. It's a project of the Cordoba Initiative, an advocacy group that promotes improved relations between Islam and the West.

Obama's stance runs counter to the opinions of the majority of Americans, according to polls. A CNN/Opinion Research poll released this week found that nearly 70 percent of Americans opposed the mosque plan while just 29 percent approved.
New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg has defended the project and praised Obama's remarks Friday night.

"Two hundred and twenty years ago this week, the Father of Our Country penned his famous letter to the Jewish Community of Newport Rhode Island or, as he called them, 'the Children of the Stock of Abraham.' President Obama's words tonight evoked President Washington's own August reminder that 'all possess alike liberty,'" Bloomberg said.

This was B.O.'s way of saying F U to the last incumbent democrat who had any hope of gettin re-elected in November.

BigChiefFan
08-14-2010, 11:59 PM
He is not right, the president does not endorse any religion as he has.
In a perfect world, you would be correct, but as it is, you're wrong as Hell on this issue. Muslims have every right as a Christian or any other religion. Don't like it? Buy the property and prevent them from doing this, otherwise, they've done nothing wrong, other than having bad taste in where they choose to build. It's a pretty cut and dry issue.

Dylan
08-15-2010, 12:20 AM
http://www.nypost.com/rw/nypost/2010/08/14/covers/front081410.jpg

Dylan
08-15-2010, 12:21 AM
Ottawa Citizen Newspaper

Mischief in Manhattan

We Muslims know the Ground Zero mosque is meant to be a deliberate provocation

By Raheel Raza and Tarek Fatah, Citizen Special August 9, 2010

Last week, a journalist who writes for the North Country Times, a small newspaper in Southern California, sent us an e-mail titled "Help." He couldn't understand why an Islamic Centre in an area where Adam Gadahn, Osama bin Laden's American spokesman came from, and that was home to three of the 911 terrorists, was looking to expand.

The man has a very valid point, which leads to the ongoing debate about building a Mosque at Ground Zero in New York. When we try to understand the reasoning behind building a mosque at the epicentre of the worst-ever attack on the U.S., we wonder why its proponents don't build a monument to those who died in the attack?

New York currently boasts at least 30 mosques so it's not as if there is pressing need to find space for worshippers. The fact we Muslims know the idea behind the Ground Zero mosque is meant to be a deliberate provocation to thumb our noses at the infidel. The proposal has been made in bad faith and in Islamic parlance, such an act is referred to as "Fitna," meaning "mischief-making" that is clearly forbidden in the Koran.

The Koran commands Muslims to, "Be considerate when you debate with the People of the Book" -- i.e., Jews and Christians. Building an exclusive place of worship for Muslims at the place where Muslims killed thousands of New Yorkers is not being considerate or sensitive, it is undoubtedly an act of "fitna"

So what gives Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf of the "Cordoba Initiative" and his cohorts the misplaced idea that they will increase tolerance for Muslims by brazenly displaying their own intolerance in this case?

Do they not understand that building a mosque at Ground Zero is equivalent to permitting a Serbian Orthodox church near the killing fields of Srebrenica where 8,000 Muslim men and boys were slaughtered?

There are many questions that we would like to ask. Questions about where the funding is coming from? If this mosque is being funded by Saudi sources, then it is an even bigger slap in the face of Americans, as nine of the jihadis in the Twin Tower calamity were Saudis.

If Rauf is serious about building bridges, then he could have dedicated space in this so-called community centre to a church and synagogue, but he did not. We passed on this message to him through a mutual Saudi friend, but received no answer. He could have proposed a memorial to the 9/11 dead with a denouncement of the doctrine of armed jihad, but he chose not to.

It's a repugnant thought that $100 million would be brought into the United States rather than be directed at dying and needy Muslims in Darfur or Pakistan.

Let's not forget that a mosque is an exclusive place of worship for Muslims and not an inviting community centre. Most Americans are wary of mosques due to the hard core rhetoric that is used in pulpits. And rightly so. As Muslims we are dismayed that our co-religionists have such little consideration for their fellow citizens and wish to rub salt in their wounds and pretend they are applying a balm to sooth the pain.

The Koran implores Muslims to speak the truth, even if it hurts the one who utters the truth. Today we speak the truth, knowing very well Muslims have forgotten this crucial injunction from Allah.

If this mosque does get built, it will forever be a lightning rod for those who have little room for Muslims or Islam in the U.S. We simply cannot understand why on Earth the traditional leadership of America's Muslims would not realize their folly and back out in an act of goodwill.

As for those teary-eyed, bleeding-heart liberals such as New York mayor Michael Bloomberg and much of the media, who are blind to the Islamist agenda in North America, we understand their goodwill.

Unfortunately for us, their stand is based on ignorance and guilt, and they will never in their lives have to face the tyranny of Islamism that targets, kills and maims Muslims worldwide, and is using liberalism itself to destroy liberal secular democratic societies from within.


Raheel Raza is author of Their Jihad ... Not my Jihad, and Tarek Fatah is author of The Jew is Not My Enemy (McClelland & Stewart), to be launched in October. Both sit on the board of the Muslim Canadian Congress.

© Copyright (c) The Ottawa Citizen


http://www.ottawacitizen.com/sports/Mischief+Manhattan/3370303/story.html#ixzz0weIK6EFg

greg63
08-15-2010, 12:39 AM
Obama choose his words very carefully so as to speak only to muslims right to build and worship in a mosque on purchased private property regardless of it's geographical location to ground zero so he can "clarify, and qualify" his comments later be saying that he "will not comment on the wisdom" of such a mosque location.

Spoken like a true "politician". :rolleyes:

Dylan
08-15-2010, 02:33 AM
I just wondered if President Obama and Mayor Bloomberg would pressure Muslim Leaders and Developers of 'Cordoba House' to give us little more color on the name of their project.

Middle East Quarterly

The Two Faces of the Ground Zero Mosque

by Raymond Ibrahim
June 22, 2010

Depending on whether Islamists address Americans or fellow Muslims, the same exact words they use often relay diametrically opposed meanings. One example: when Americans hear Muslims evoke "justice," the former envision Western-style justice, whereas Muslims naturally have Sharia law justice in mind.

Islamists obviously use this to their advantage: when addressing the West, Osama bin Laden bemoans the "justice of our causes, particularly Palestine"; yet, when addressing Muslims, his notion of justice far transcends territorial disputes and becomes unintelligible from a Western perspective: "Battle, animosity, and hatred—directed from the Muslim to the infidel—is the foundation of our religion. And we consider this a justice and kindness to them. The West perceives fighting, enmity, and hatred all for the sake of the religion [i.e., Islam] as unjust, hostile, and evil. But who's understanding is right—our notions of justice and righteousness, or theirs?" (Al Qaeda Reader, p. 43).

Of course, that Osama bin Laden—slayer of 3,000 Americans and avowed enemy to the rest—exhibits two faces, one to Americans another to Muslims, is not surprising. Yet the reader may well be surprised to discover that the controversial Cordoba Initiative, which plans on manifesting itself as the largest American mosque, situated atop Ground Zero—that is, atop the carnage caused by none other than bin Laden—also has two faces, conveying one thing to Americans, quite another to Muslims.

The very name of the initiative itself, "Cordoba," offers different connotations to different people: In the West, the Andalusian city of Cordoba is regularly touted as the model of medieval Muslim progressiveness and tolerance for Christians and Jews. To many Americans, then, the choice to name the mosque "Cordoba" is suggestive of rapprochement and interfaith dialogue; atop the rubble of 9/11, it implies "healing"—a new beginning between Muslims and Americans. The Cordoba Initiative's mission statement certainly suggests as much:

Cordoba Initiative aims to achieve a tipping point in Muslim-West relations within the next decade, bringing back the atmosphere of interfaith tolerance and respect that we have longed for since Muslims, Christians and Jews lived together in harmony and prosperity eight hundred years ago.

Oddly enough, the so-called "tolerant" era of Cordoba supposedly occurred during the caliphate of 'Abd al-Rahman III (912-961)—well over a thousand years ago. "Eight hundred years ago," i.e., around 1200, the fanatical Almohids—ideological predecessors of al-Qaeda—were ravaging Cordoba, where "Christians and Jews were given the choice of conversion, exile, or death." A Freudian slip on the part of the Cordoba Initiative?

At any rate, the true history of Cordoba, not to mention the whole of Andalusia, is far less inspiring than what Western academics portray: the Christian city was conquered by Muslims around 711, its inhabitants slaughtered or enslaved. The original mosque of Cordoba—the namesake of the Ground Zero mosque—was built atop, and partly from the materials of, a Christian church. Modern day Muslims are well aware of all this. Such is the true—and ominous—legacy of Cordoba.

More pointedly, throughout Islam's history, whenever a region was conquered, one of the first signs of consolidation was/is the erection of a mosque atop the sacred sites of the vanquished: the pagan Ka'ba temple in Arabia was converted into Islam's holiest site, the mosque of Mecca; the al-Aqsa mosque, Islam's third holiest site, was built atop Solomon's temple in Jerusalem; the Umayyad mosque was built atop the Church of St. John the Baptist; and the Hagia Sophia was converted into a mosque upon the conquest of Constantinople.

(Speaking of, in 2006, when the Pope visited the Hagia Sophia in Turkey, there was a risk that the "Islamic world [would go] into paroxysms of fury" if there was "any perception that the pope is trying to re-appropriate a Christian center that fell to Muslims," for example, if he had dared pray there—this even as Muslims today seek to build a mosque on the rubble of the Twin Towers.)

Such double-standards lead us back to the issue of double-meanings: As for the literal wording of the mosque project, "Cordoba House," it too offers opposing paradigms of thought: to Westerners, the English word "house" suggests shelter, intimacy—coziness, even; in classical Arabic, however, the word for house, dar, can also mean "region," and is regularly used in a divisive sense, as in Dar al-Harb, i.e., "infidel region of war." Thus, to Muslim ears, while "Cordoba" offers allusions of conquest and domination, dar is further suggestive of division and separation (from infidels, a la the doctrine of al-Wala' wa al-Bara', for instance).

Words aside, even the mosque's scheduled opening date—9/11/2011—has two aspects: to Americans, opening the mosque on 9/11 is to proclaim a new beginning with the Muslim world on the ten-year anniversary of the worst terror strikes on American soil; however, it just so happens that Koranic verse 9:111 is one of the loftiest calls for suicidal jihad—believers are exhorted to "kill and be killed"—and is probably the reason al-Qaeda originally chose that date to strike. So while Americans may think the mosque's planned 9/11 opening is meant to commemorate that date, cryptically speaking, it is an evocation for all out war. A "new beginning," indeed, but of a very different sort, namely, the propagation of more Islamists and jihadists—mosques are, after all, epicenters of radicalization—on, of all places, soil sacred to America.

Some final thoughts on the history of Cordoba and the ominous parallels it bodes for America: though many Christian regions were conquered by Islam prior to Cordoba, its conquest signified the first time a truly "Western" region was conquered by the sword of Islam. It was also used as a base to launch further attacks into the heart of Europe (until decisively beaten at the Battle of Tours), just as, perhaps, the largest mosque in America will be used as a base to subvert the rest of the United States. And, the sacking of the original Cordoba was facilitated by an insider traitor—a warning to the U.S., which seems to have no end of traitors and willing lackeys.

Such, then, is the dual significance of the Cordoba Initiative: What appears to many Americans as a gesture of peace and interfaith dialogue, is to Muslims allusive of Islamist conquest and consolidation; mosques, which Americans assume are Muslim counterparts to Christian churches—that is, places where altruistic Muslims congregate and pray for world peace and harmony—are symbols of domination and centers of radicalization; the numbers of the opening date, 9/11/11, appear to Americans as commemorative of a new beginning, whereas the Koranic significance of those numbers is suicidal jihad. Of course, the two faces of the Cordoba House should not be surprising considering that the man behind the initiative, Feisal Abdul Rauf, also has two faces.

Going along with the historic analogy, there is one bit of good news: As opposed to the vast majority of onetime Western/Christian nations annexed by Islam, Cordoba, Spain did ultimately manage to overthrow the Islamic yoke. Though only after some 700 years of occupation.

http://www.meforum.org/2678/ground-zero-mosque

Raymond Ibrahim is associate director of the Middle East Forum, author of The Al Qaeda Reader, and guest lecturer at the National Defense Intelligence College.

Count Alex's Losses
08-15-2010, 02:55 AM
This is just fucking retarded. Forget religious rights. How about safety?

That mosque will be nothing but a target for idiots to create problems. Without the mosque, that area is just ground zero. With the mosque, it's a potentially dangerous situation. For Americans AND for Muslims.

I wouldn't build a christian church on that ground and I wouldn't build a mosque.

Taco John
08-15-2010, 03:40 AM
I believe that the Mosque being allowed to be built there shows the greatness of America. I think people are getting too caught up in the political rhetoric and are forgetting the true spirit of America. There's a reason that we have been the standard bearer for humanity for so long - and there's also a reason why we lost the respect of the world that used to look up to us.

Being the world's policeman has never been the American vision nor the American spirit. Being the worlds melting pot has. Importing immigrants and exporting the ideals of individual liberty around the world is what America is about. Dedication to the values of individual liberty is what we're supposed to be endeavoring towards.

I welcome that Mosque in the true American spirit. I don't believe that the people involved with that project had anything to do with 9/11, and I'd doubt that the event made them anything but unhappy and uncomfortable.

I think it would be a real shame if our country started making attempts to bottle up religious freedom in this country. America was designed to ingest and assimilate all cultures and then export the ideals of liberty. Not be a world police.

Count Alex's Losses
08-15-2010, 04:01 AM
I believe that the Mosque being allowed to be built there shows the greatness of America.

Give me a fucking break.

Common sense should override any sense of patriotic pride.

They build that mosque and it won't be long until some idiot who thinks all Muslims are terrorists throws a brick through the window, or worse. And you can bet the place will be picketed. You want to risk a riot down there just to prove America is the best?

greg63
08-15-2010, 06:16 AM
I understand Taco John's point of view but find myself agreeing with GoChiefs.




...I feel so stupid and dirty.

Oucho Cinco
08-15-2010, 06:47 AM
In a perfect world, you would be correct, but as it is, you're wrong as Hell on this issue. Muslims have every right as a Christian or any other religion. Don't like it? Buy the property and prevent them from doing this, otherwise, they've done nothing wrong, other than having bad taste in where they choose to build. It's a pretty cut and dry issue.

My point had less to do with the mosque and more to do with the president endorsing a brand of religion, that is forbidden by the separation of church and state, not my interpretation of what the constitution says but what the current stand of what it says.

Oucho Cinco
08-15-2010, 06:49 AM
I believe that the Mosque being allowed to be built there shows the greatness of America. I think people are getting too caught up in the political rhetoric and are forgetting the true spirit of America. There's a reason that we have been the standard bearer for humanity for so long - and there's also a reason why we lost the respect of the world that used to look up to us.

Being the world's policeman has never been the American vision nor the American spirit. Being the worlds melting pot has. Importing immigrants and exporting the ideals of individual liberty around the world is what America is about. Dedication to the values of individual liberty is what we're supposed to be endeavoring towards.

I welcome that Mosque in the true American spirit. I don't believe that the people involved with that project had anything to do with 9/11, and I'd doubt that the event made them anything but unhappy and uncomfortable.

I think it would be a real shame if our country started making attempts to bottle up religious freedom in this country. America was designed to ingest and assimilate all cultures and then export the ideals of liberty. Not be a world police.

If you think that all Muslims did not rejoice at the successful attack on America you aren't really as up to speed on the situation as you profess to be. Their stand is just as much an issue of us against them as it is for the U.S.

healthpellets
08-15-2010, 08:48 AM
If you think that all Muslims did not rejoice at the successful attack on America you aren't really as up to speed on the situation as you profess to be. Their stand is just as much an issue of us against them as it is for the U.S.

dealing in absolutes is a losing proposition.

BucEyedPea
08-15-2010, 09:11 AM
They have a right to build it. However, it is insensitive.
Still the obsession and paranoia on this mosque is astounding to me. Do not let this situation result in govt starting to crack down on religion. It's dangerous.

Oucho Cinco
08-15-2010, 09:19 AM
dealing in absolutes is a losing proposition.

Could be in most situations, but not in this one.

Brainiac
08-15-2010, 09:25 AM
They have a right to build it. However, it is insensitive.
Still the obsession and paranoia on this mosque is astounding to me. Do not let this situation result in govt starting to crack down on religion. It's dangerous.
It's insensitive to tell your wife she looks fat. This goes far beyond being insensitive.

I don't think anybody is asking the government to crack down on religion, and I don't really understand how anyone can classify the feelings about this as obsession and paranoia.

What is obsessive is this group's insistence upon building the mosque at this particular location. I suppose the supporters of this mosque at this location think it would be just fine for the United States to buy some land in Hiroshima and Nagasaki and build a couple of World War II museums. If the Japanese people objected to that, would that make them obsessive and paranoid?

HonestChieffan
08-15-2010, 09:27 AM
We call it "zoning". We limit some business locations based on the kind of business. Its not anti business, its the application of common sense.

Too bad we can't see that

healthpellets
08-15-2010, 09:37 AM
We call it "zoning". We limit some business locations based on the kind of business. Its not anti business, its the application of common sense.

Too bad we can't see that

but if there are already religious institutions in lower manhattan, does it not seem discriminatory to prevent others? would you prevent a christian church or a Buddhist temple?

HonestChieffan
08-15-2010, 09:40 AM
but if there are already religious institutions in lower manhattan, does it not seem discriminatory to prevent others? would you prevent a christian church or a Buddhist temple?


Thats the beauty of zoning..its clean and simple. And it is not retroactive. So those there are grandfathered in.

healthpellets
08-15-2010, 09:44 AM
Thats the beauty of zoning..its clean and simple. And it is not retroactive. So those there are grandfathered in.

so you are advocating the use of government to discriminate?

HonestChieffan
08-15-2010, 09:55 AM
so you are advocating the use of government to discriminate?


No. Im an advocate of zoning and appropriate land use.

You understand the difference is slight but you are smart enough to know that if we zone or set up enterprise zones those are not "discriminatory" in the manner that "racist/discrimination labels" infer. Sure when we say no strip clubs can be within 2 blocks or whatever of a school or church, one can say we discriminate against strip clubs.

Many cities and towns zone against mobile homes. Is that discriminatory against poor folk or manufactured housing industry?

If that how it is, then fine. Call it discrimination if it makes you feel better.

BucEyedPea
08-15-2010, 12:49 PM
It's insensitive to tell your wife she looks fat. This goes far beyond being insensitive.

I don't think anybody is asking the government to crack down on religion, and I don't really understand how anyone can classify the feelings about this as obsession and paranoia.

What is obsessive is this group's insistence upon building the mosque at this particular location. I suppose the supporters of this mosque at this location think it would be just fine for the United States to buy some land in Hiroshima and Nagasaki and build a couple of World War II museums. If the Japanese people objected to that, would that make them obsessive and paranoid?
I said it was insensitive. What more do you want? Degrees of insensitivity?
You just can't allow the people to demand govt stop the building of this mosque. It may not be a crackdown on religion yet....but it starts with small incursions. You can only allow them to speak out about it. Frankly, ignoring them outright would have been a better tactic imo. They're getting the attention they don't DESERVE.

orange
08-15-2010, 01:24 PM
Give me a ****ing break.

Common sense should override any sense of patriotic pride.

They build that mosque and it won't be long until some idiot who thinks all Muslims are terrorists throws a brick through the window, or worse. And you can bet the place will be picketed. You want to risk a riot down there just to prove America is the best?

You know, you're right.


And we should stop having funerals for servicemen because you know they're going to be picketed.

Brainiac
08-15-2010, 01:25 PM
I said it was insensitive. What more do you want? Degrees of insensitivity?
You just can't allow the people to demand govt stop the building of this mosque. It may not be a crackdown on religion yet....but it starts with small incursions. You can only allow them to speak out about it. Frankly, ignoring them outright would have been a better tactic imo. They're getting the attention they don't DESERVE.

My point is that there is a huge difference between being insensitive and being deliberately offensive, especially when the offense is to deliberately mock the victims of a barbaric mass murder. If this were truly about religion, they wouldn't insist upon building it right next to ground zero.

This has nothing to do with religion.

kstater
08-15-2010, 01:29 PM
This is just fucking retarded. Forget religious rights. How about safety?

That mosque will be nothing but a target for idiots to create problems. Without the mosque, that area is just ground zero. With the mosque, it's a potentially dangerous situation. For Americans AND for Muslims.

I wouldn't build a christian church on that ground and I wouldn't build a mosque.

Pssst, they're not building on ground zero. They're building on ground arbitrarily deemed too close to ground zero.

ChiefsCountry
08-15-2010, 02:33 PM
Let them build it and let us put a pork bbq restaurant right next door.
Posted via Mobile Device

Count Alex's Losses
08-15-2010, 02:45 PM
You know, you're right.

And we should stop having funerals for servicemen because you know they're going to be picketed.

That's a completely different situation. There isn't nearly the same potential for danger.

|Zach|
08-15-2010, 02:52 PM
I believe that the Mosque being allowed to be built there shows the greatness of America. I think people are getting too caught up in the political rhetoric and are forgetting the true spirit of America. There's a reason that we have been the standard bearer for humanity for so long - and there's also a reason why we lost the respect of the world that used to look up to us.

Being the world's policeman has never been the American vision nor the American spirit. Being the worlds melting pot has. Importing immigrants and exporting the ideals of individual liberty around the world is what America is about. Dedication to the values of individual liberty is what we're supposed to be endeavoring towards.

I welcome that Mosque in the true American spirit. I don't believe that the people involved with that project had anything to do with 9/11, and I'd doubt that the event made them anything but unhappy and uncomfortable.

I think it would be a real shame if our country started making attempts to bottle up religious freedom in this country. America was designed to ingest and assimilate all cultures and then export the ideals of liberty. Not be a world police.

Great post here.

tiptap
08-15-2010, 03:00 PM
Notice the Christian Church is closer

HonestChieffan
08-15-2010, 03:10 PM
Notice the Christian Church is closer

so

Count Alex's Losses
08-15-2010, 03:55 PM
When was the xtian church built, though?

kstater
08-15-2010, 04:32 PM
Let them build it and let us put a pork bbq restaurant right next door.
Posted via Mobile Device

This doesn't even make sense.

stevieray
08-15-2010, 05:01 PM
Notice the Christian Church is closer

IIRC, isn't that the Church Washington went to after being sworn in?
and if it is, and I do remember correctly, that's the oldest working Church in the country.

freedom of religion is just that...there might be a day, sooner than most think, that the Muslim religion could replace Christianity in this country....let's not pretend that isn't the goal.

|Zach|
08-15-2010, 05:02 PM
Let them build it and let us put a pork bbq restaurant right next door.
Posted via Mobile Device

Aside from being the millionth person to write this thinking it is clever.

There isn't anything stopping you or anyone else from doing it.

BucEyedPea
08-15-2010, 05:05 PM
My point is that there is a huge difference between being insensitive and being deliberately offensive, especially when the offense is to deliberately mock the victims of a barbaric mass murder. If this were truly about religion, they wouldn't insist upon building it right next to ground zero.

This has nothing to do with religion.

Well, ya' it's that too. S-o-r-r-y, I didn't have the exact choice of words that would make the point better.

However, yes, it does have to do with religion....not directly....but it does if govt prevents them from buying land because they're Muslims who want to put a religious building on it. It's called discrimination. You can deny it all you want but it touches on that issue. Perhaps, they can find a zoning law loophole about the architecture not fitting in instead.

In the meantime the US govt is plotting barbaric mass murder on Persians and that's probably okay with those protesting this building. I await the excuses to come after saying this.

BigChiefFan
08-15-2010, 05:27 PM
IIRC, isn't that the Church Washington went to after being sworn in?
and if it is, and I do remember correctly, that's the oldest working Church in the country.

freedom of religion is just that...there might be a day, sooner than most think, that the Muslim religion could replace Christianity in this country....let's not pretend that isn't the goal.

...and if they was the case, I'm sure you'd want the FREEDOM to still attend or build a Christian church, no? The people that are defending the right to freedom of religion understand, there's a two-way street and you can't only have freedom, for one sect and not another. Again, you take the good with the bad.

stevieray
08-15-2010, 07:01 PM
...and if they was the case, I'm sure you'd want the FREEDOM to still attend or build a Christian church, no? The people that are defending the right to freedom of religion understand, there's a two-way street and you can't only have freedom, for one sect and not another. Again, you take the good with the bad.

I think you misunderstood my post.

BucEyedPea
08-15-2010, 09:06 PM
...and if they was the case, I'm sure you'd want the FREEDOM to still attend or build a Christian church, no? The people that are defending the right to freedom of religion understand, there's a two-way street and you can't only have freedom, for one sect and not another. Again, you take the good with the bad.

Just a thought but whatever happened to property rights?




Private Property Rights and “The Mosque”
Apparently, the lines are drawn with President Obama’s recent declaration of tepid support for the Islamic center to be built near the “Ground Zero” 9-11 site. Many Republicans, obviously, are using this to spread fear and gets votes, but the Democrats easily could debate the GOP on the Republicans’ own intellectual ground, yet it seems that the Dems are incapable of so doing.

What is that argument?
It is the simple invocation of private property rights. (No, the Islamic center would NOT qualify as an “externality” under any current definitions. ROFL)

However, neither Obama nor his fellow Democrats are willing to do that, since “Progressives” believe that private property rights generally are oppressive and must give way to “public interest” arguments. Now that we have a real-live property rights issue, the Democrats are intellectually bankrupt and the Republicans are outright craven. What a choice.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/blog/lewrw/archives/63663.html

Oucho Cinco
08-15-2010, 09:14 PM
When was the xtian church built, though?

I have a better question, when did the Christians last bomb a building in NYC and kill 3000 Americans?

healthpellets
08-15-2010, 09:31 PM
I have a better question, when did the Christians last bomb a building in NYC and kill 3000 Americans?

i guess we'll just not talk about OKC...

i suppose Christians shouldn't be allowed to build churches near federal buildings.

Count Alex's Losses
08-15-2010, 10:39 PM
I have a better question, when did the Christians last bomb a building in NYC and kill 3000 Americans?

See, this is why you are a dumbass.

You're blaming an entire religion for the act of a terrorist group.

It's ignorant. You're ignorant.

People like you are the reason that mosque should not be built in that location. It's just asking for trouble.

Oucho Cinco
08-15-2010, 10:46 PM
See, this is why you are a dumbass.

You're blaming an entire religion for the act of a terrorist group.

It's ignorant. You're ignorant.

People like you are the reason that mosque should not be built in that location. It's just asking for trouble.

I asked a simple question. Radical muslims were the ones that attacked the U.S. There is a widespread problem with building a mosque in NYC. You asked when the Chrisitan Church was built, I used the same logic, one radical muslim means all are radical and in the same light when was the last time a radical Christian bombed NYC and then when did they build the church you were referring to?

You seem to be the dumbass here and it's proven that you are an asshole to boot.

I believe in our constitution, not necessarily the current belief that there has to be a separation of church and state, but considering that is the current law the President should not have endorsed the building of a muslim mosque.

Count Alex's Losses
08-15-2010, 10:49 PM
I don't even think you understand my logic. I'm not attacking xtians.

I asked when the xtian church was built because, if it was built before 9/11, then there's no reason it shouldn't be there.

But if it was built after 9/11, building on that site would be almost as stupid as putting a mosque there. It would be a target.

Looks like it's been there for decades though.

Granted, building a mosque there is an even dumber thing to do. A xtian church is not going to be a lightning rod for controversy the way a mosque would be.

Oucho Cinco
08-15-2010, 10:49 PM
i guess we'll just not talk about OKC...

i suppose Christians shouldn't be allowed to build churches near federal buildings.

No let's talk about Timothy McVeigh:

Political and religious views

McVeigh's only known political affiliations were his voter registration with the Republican Party of New York when he lived in Buffalo, New York, and a membership in the National Rifle Association while in the military.<sup id="cite_ref-autogenerated1_78-0" class="reference">[79]</sup>
In a recorded interview with Time magazine<sup id="cite_ref-79" class="reference">[80]</sup> McVeigh professed his belief in "a god", although he said he had "sort of lost touch with" Catholicism and "I never really picked it up, however I do maintain core beliefs." Throughout his childhood, he and his father were Roman CatholicMass at Good Shepherd Church in Pendleton, New York. The Guardian reported that McVeigh wrote a letter to them claiming to be an agnostic and that he did not believe in a hell.<sup id="cite_ref-80" class="reference">[81]</sup><sup id="cite_ref-81" class="reference">[82]</sup><sup id="cite_ref-82" class="reference">[83]</sup> and regularly attended daily McVeigh once said that he believed the universe was guided by natural law, energized by some universal higher power that showed each person right from wrong if they paid attention to what was going on inside them. He had also said, "Science is my religion."

Oucho Cinco
08-15-2010, 10:54 PM
I don't even think you understand my logic. I'm not attacking xtians.

I asked when the xtian church was built because, if it was built before 9/11, then there's no reason it shouldn't be there.

But if it was built after 9/11, building on that site would be almost as stupid as putting a mosque there. It would be a target.

Looks like it's been there for decades though.

The point I'm making is that someone of the muslim faith attacked the us, radical belief or an all encompassing belief of muslims. In comparing that to a Christian Church and when it was built you have to consider the prior acts of the Christian Church regarding attacking the U.S. prior to building that particular church.

What has happened is what I would consider a first and I consider the building of the mosque just following in line with the standard muslim action of placing mosques in areas they have taken over. There were world wide parties after 9/11 happened, none of them were Christian in nature, virtually all of them were purely muslim members.

Count Alex's Losses
08-15-2010, 10:59 PM
I'm not really considering the motivations of those building the places of worship, just the implications of those places as targets for controversy.

To expound on that, I don't believe in a million years terrorists would put a mosque near ground zero to recruit new al Qaeda members. It would be incredibly stupid.

healthpellets
08-15-2010, 11:04 PM
No let's talk about Timothy McVeigh:

Political and religious views

McVeigh's only known political affiliations were his voter registration with the Republican Party of New York when he lived in Buffalo, New York, and a membership in the National Rifle Association while in the military.<sup id="cite_ref-autogenerated1_78-0" class="reference">[79]</sup>
In a recorded interview with Time magazine<sup id="cite_ref-79" class="reference">[80]</sup> McVeigh professed his belief in "a god", although he said he had "sort of lost touch with" Catholicism and "I never really picked it up, however I do maintain core beliefs." Throughout his childhood, he and his father were Roman CatholicMass at Good Shepherd Church in Pendleton, New York. The Guardian reported that McVeigh wrote a letter to them claiming to be an agnostic and that he did not believe in a hell.<sup id="cite_ref-80" class="reference">[81]</sup><sup id="cite_ref-81" class="reference">[82]</sup><sup id="cite_ref-82" class="reference">[83]</sup> and regularly attended daily McVeigh once said that he believed the universe was guided by natural law, energized by some universal higher power that showed each person right from wrong if they paid attention to what was going on inside them. He had also said, "Science is my religion."

seeing as he "maintained core beliefs" and was a member of the CI movement, seems he would qualify.

whatever spiritual turns he took after his act are pretty irrelevant, imo.

just sayin.

healthpellets
08-15-2010, 11:06 PM
To expound on that, I don't believe in a million years terrorists would put a mosque near ground zero to recruit new al Qaeda members. It would be incredibly stupid.

really? you're giving them way too much credit.

Oucho Cinco
08-15-2010, 11:12 PM
I'm not really considering the motivations of those building the places of worship, just the implications of those places as targets for controversy.

To expound on that, I don't believe in a million years terrorists would put a mosque near ground zero to recruit new al Qaeda members. It would be incredibly stupid.

It's stupid for you to even consider that's why they are putting it there. It is not a recruiting tool. It's a sign that they feel their conquest of NYC is either completed or will be in the near future.

Oucho Cinco
08-15-2010, 11:13 PM
seeing as he "maintained core beliefs" and was a member of the CI movement, seems he would qualify.

whatever spiritual turns he took after his act are pretty irrelevant, imo.

just sayin.

What's wrong? You can't read a simple statement by him that says his religion is science?

You have been pwned and you fucking went down the wrong road without researching your stand. You fucking lose.

DaneMcCloud
08-15-2010, 11:14 PM
It's less a property issue and more an issue of touting their attack on the U.S. That's purely my opinion but if you check out the U.S. in general there are mosques going up to service 1500 muslims in some areas. There are fewer than 200 muslims in those areas, who is funding the buildings if they are only small?

Islam's goal is world dominance and their law. Has very little to do with religion and much to do with dominance.

Do you have ANY idea how much real estate in this country Arabs currently own?

DaneMcCloud
08-15-2010, 11:15 PM
It's stupid for you to even consider that's why they are putting it there. It is not a recruiting tool. It's a sign that they feel their conquest of NYC is either completed or will be in the near future.

Tom, regardless of what user name you're using, you will always be a fucking nutjob.

Count Alex's Losses
08-15-2010, 11:15 PM
really? you're giving them way too much credit.

Terrorists are not as stupid as you think they are. They are also a lot tougher than you think they are, which is why it's taking so long to eradicate them.

They are very well trained.

Count Alex's Losses
08-15-2010, 11:17 PM
It's stupid for you to even consider that's why they are putting it there. It is not a recruiting tool. It's a sign that they feel their conquest of NYC is either completed or will be in the near future.

We're on the same fucking side here. Stop flaming me.

Obama is an idiot.

healthpellets
08-15-2010, 11:21 PM
What's wrong? You can't read a simple statement by him that says his religion is science?

You have been pwned and you ****ing went down the wrong road without researching your stand. You ****ing lose.

wow. you take a statement he made after his act and you're telling me that was his life's philosophy? it's not like he had a manifesto he wrote like the unibomber prior to his actions.

do you understand what the christian identity movement is? and do you understand that he was involved and influenced by the CI movement?

so ya...you totally pwned me!

ps -- if you're going to take mcveigh at his word that his religion was science, why don't you take muslims at their word that islam is a religion of peace?

healthpellets
08-15-2010, 11:24 PM
Terrorists are not as stupid as you think they are. They are also a lot tougher than you think they are, which is why it's taking so long to eradicate them.

They are very well trained.

well they must pretty good at their jobs since they planned the homicide of 3000 americans from caves in Afghanistan.

while they may be tough, maybe we're just not very good eradicating them. or maybe, they have a lot more to fight for on their own soil than we do.

Oucho Cinco
08-16-2010, 06:00 AM
wow. you take a statement he made after his act and you're telling me that was his life's philosophy? it's not like he had a manifesto he wrote like the unibomber prior to his actions.

do you understand what the christian identity movement is? and do you understand that he was involved and influenced by the CI movement?

so ya...you totally pwned me!

ps -- if you're going to take mcveigh at his word that his religion was science, why don't you take muslims at their word that islam is a religion of peace?

Go with your beliefs there Forrest.

WV
08-16-2010, 04:55 PM
I don't like that it's being built and I don't like the fact that our illustrious leader felt he needed to stick his nose in it, but I also understand why it's difficult to debate why it shouldn't be stopped.

Given my druthers I'd say never build another Mosque in the US, but that's not going to happen. Anywhere close to Ground Zero is a location of poor choice and i can't help but feel it is Muslims kind of thumbing their noses at the spot.

Oucho Cinco
08-16-2010, 06:22 PM
I don't like that it's being built and I don't like the fact that our illustrious leader felt he needed to stick his nose in it, but I also understand why it's difficult to debate why it shouldn't be stopped.

Given my druthers I'd say never build another Mosque in the US, but that's not going to happen. Anywhere close to Ground Zero is a location of poor choice and i can't help but feel it is Muslims kind of thumbing their noses at the spot.

That would be the point everyone needs to realize.

orange
08-16-2010, 08:42 PM
"Screw 'em!" "This is madness!"

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Bwana
08-17-2010, 07:30 PM
Well yeah.

Dirty Pricks

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7PP4tAIA2g&feature=player_embedded