PDA

View Full Version : Chiefs My initial thoughts of Preseason Game 1


Sully
08-14-2010, 04:37 PM
I watched this last night very late, and again, the first half, in a groggy state today, and here's what i saw. I focused almost exclusively on the OL, DL and LBers, so most of my thoughts will concern those units. I went back and watched each play between 5-6 times, just to make sure I was seeing what I thought I was seeing.

Offensive Line:
Overall it was very meh. No one stood out as playing very well, but several players looked horrible. Beginning with O'Callaghan, who was atrocious. Last year, I thought he was a serviceable guy, but last night he was terrible in almost every aspect of the game. We saw how lost he was against speed rushers, but he was also terrible in run blocking. On the 3rd and short, however, looking at the play several times, it looks like Pope actually fucked him and blocked the wrong guy.
Sadly, his replacement, Colin Brown (who I had very high hopes for) looked just as bad. He just didn't have the feet to block anyone with speed off the edge, and had trouble in the run game, as well. I'm puzzled, because I thought he was moved to guard, and I think he could be decent there... but at RT, he was terrible.
Speaking of guards, Asomoah was dogshit, as well. I know he's a rookie, and will give him more slack. but he looked absolutely lost.
Albert played okay. Not great, and not terrible. but certainly worse than you'd hope an elite LT should.
Niswanger held his own. He wasn't a world-beater, but he was never in the QB's lap, either...which I can't say for Weigmann.


Defensive line
Here's where I'm going to get blasted, based off of reading some other thoughts on the game. But try and stay with me.
Tyson Jackson: Still not (and may never) living up to a 1st round pick. He DID do "his job" of holding up blockers. However, he never demanded a double team, and once he was engaged with a player, he never showed the ability to shed the block. He was never once driven back, but he wasn't disruptive by any stretch.
Glen Dorsey: He looks improved, but was very undisciplined last night. He seemed to get off blocks better, but also played every play as if it were a pass play. On the typical play, he would slant quickly to the OT's outside shoulder and begin an outside rush. The problem is, he created a huge hole where he had left, and he also got in Hali's way. He did show ability in getting off blocks and exploding into the backfield, which we haven't seen much of so far in his career.
Ron Edwards: A disaster. Driven into LBers laps. Never needed a double team. The key to our defensive troubles last night.
Derek Lokey: I've never liked this guy for our team. Too small, too unathletic, gets swallowed up. Reading camp reports this year, though, he seemed to be improving. Last night that showed. He always showed a ton of energy, and last night was no difference.Actually re-established a LoS, used his hands and feet well, and moved the pocket. Still a little small, though he has certainly put on a ton of weight, but definitely improved.
Shaun Smith: Only noticed him on a couple of plays. Watching the Atlanta feed, they hardly ever referred to Chiefs players, and I just couldn't tell who I was looking at in the second half.
Gilberry: Same guy as last year. Energy, speed, disruption. Would be a great 4-3 DE.

Linebackers.
This will be short...
Tamba Hali: Played very tentatively. On on of those first run plays, as the ball was coming toward him, he actually took three steps backward. Part of this may be due to either, A) Dorsey playing undisciplined and being in his way, B) The defense called for him to replace Dorsey as Dorsey slid outside on his rush, or C) both of them didn't have a cluse what they were doing. I want to believe option B, but if that's the case, they need work.
The rest: On skates. Never met the back at the point of attack. Due to no Double teams up front, they had blockers on them early.
Studebaker: Looked decent. I'm not scared he's going to eff up huge when he's out there.


What I liked:

I hate hate hate to say this, but I liked Croyle's play. He was clearly the best QB the Chiefs had last night. I temper that a little, due to playing against 2nd teamers.
I like what McCluster brings to the table, and I refuse to spend his career pouting because i'd have rather they drafted a different guy instead of him. he could be special. And I simply don't buy the "small=fragile" argument. If anything, he'll take less punishment and beatings, because of his size and quickness. You rarely saw/see guys like Eric Metcalf, Darren Sproles, and even Wes Welker take huge hits.
Charles looked good...but I'm still worried about his shoulder.
Kestahn Moore, made two or three HORRIBLE plays, but also showed some flash. I think they should be patient with him, though I was dog-cussing his mother last night on that missed block.

Bane
08-14-2010, 04:39 PM
I liked the way we looked for where we are in a rebuilding job,but Casshole just looks lost like an Easter egg to me. I don't get it.By time he figures it all out,he'll be ready to retire.

the Talking Can
08-14-2010, 04:43 PM
nice report


pretty much confirms what everyone but that idiot pawnblower saw....


i think you're being a tad charitable to jackson, but i also admit he makes me furious when he just stands there like his job is not to move....

Sully
08-14-2010, 04:46 PM
nice report


pretty much confirms what everyone but that idiot pawnblower saw....


i think you're being a tad charitable to jackson, but i also admit he makes me furious when he just stands there like his job is not to move....

I don't know if it's charitable. It's very average. The good is that he never got pushed back, he held his ground and even made a couple of plays. But the bad news is he wasn't a disruptive force at all, and no one ever had to even consider blocking him with more than one guy.

Pawnmower
08-14-2010, 04:46 PM
pretty much confirms what everyone but that idiot pawnblower saw....



Actually I agree with much of this report...

You can stay on my nuts though, your feminine lips and soft hands feel good.

Edit: One thing I dont agree with is that it is "Clear" who the best QB is, but apparently if you disagree about that Talking Can gets all up on your junk...

I second the nice report though

Edit #2 Also no mention of Arenas in your "like" list....I would add him in there

bobbything
08-14-2010, 04:47 PM
Even if Croyle tossed 6 picks, he'd still look more comfortable out there than Cassel. I don't know what it is, but Cassel looks awful.

That unintentional hail mary he launched over Pope's head forced one of these out of me last night...

http://500motivators.com/plog-content/thumbs/motivate/me/large/127-double-facepalm-when-one-facepalm-just-isnt-enough.jpg

Bane
08-14-2010, 04:49 PM
Even if Croyle tossed 6 picks, he'd still look more comfortable out there than Cassel. I don't know what it is, but Cassel looks awful.

That unintentional hail mary he launched over Pope's head forced one of these out of me last night...

http://500motivators.com/plog-content/thumbs/motivate/me/large/127-double-facepalm-when-one-facepalm-just-isnt-enough.jpg

OR.....

'Hamas' Jenkins
08-14-2010, 04:50 PM
Jackson's job is to occupy blockerS, but 1a is to disrupt the play.

Getting pwned in 1 on 1s while allowing other OL to release and swallow the LBs is not doing your job, and there was at least one play on the opening drive where he was shoved back pretty significantly.

Deberg_1990
08-14-2010, 04:53 PM
Im not sure there is a true #1 QB on this team.....I clearly hope that Croyle isnt outplaying Cassel by the time the season starts, because he isnt the answer either.

Haley cant afford to get off to a start like this team did last year. I still think he will be dead man walking if they start off 0-6 or something like that.

the Talking Can
08-14-2010, 04:56 PM
it seemed to me that jackson was getting redirected with ease


a couple of plays were he gets turned out and driven down the line, or out wide....like a kid kicking a ballon it was so effortless


there was one 1 third down play, a pass play, where he just takes off at a 45 degree angle and runs so far out of the play i think even the ol was laughing....i had no ****ing idea what he was doing, but he ran wide and deep and then just stood there....


i guess it was his idea of containment, but it left a whole the size of texas, put no pressure on the QB, and mostly looked like the only point was for jackson to get as far away from the action as possible...

i get no sense from him that he wants to engage, destroy, dominate...he just wants the play to be over....

again, i admit to really hating him....

the Talking Can
08-14-2010, 04:56 PM
Im not sure there is a true #1 QB on this team.....I clearly hope that Croyle isnt outplaying Cassel by the time the season starts, because he isnt the answer either.

Haley cant afford to get off to a start like this team did last year. I still think he will be dead man walking if they start off 0-6 or something like that.

there isn't

neither QB is worth anything but backup snaps.....

Sully
08-14-2010, 04:57 PM
Jackson's job is to occupy blockerS, but 1a is to disrupt the play.

Getting pwned in 1 on 1s while allowing other OL to release and swallow the LBs is not doing your job, and there was at least one play on the opening drive where he was shoved back pretty significantly.

That's why i put "his job" in quotes. I expect more from a first rounder.

But I never saw him get pushed back, in my first 5 viewings.

Pawnmower
08-14-2010, 04:58 PM
On a side note it would be fuckign awesome if the NFL had video links to every play with customizeable spot lights, and have us be able to draw lines on the replays like symbols for blocking etc...

Would be sick as fuck....

Anyhoo sorry for the side track but reading all of the descriptions of plays makes me want to be able to link to them so we could all examine them deeper.

bobbything
08-14-2010, 04:58 PM
Im not sure there is a true #1 QB on this team.....I clearly hope that Croyle isnt outplaying Cassel by the time the season starts, because he isnt the answer either.
I would agree. I've come to accept that this franchise will never draft and develop a good QB. They have never done it, and never will.

The acquisition of Cassel (after taking a 16-0 New England team to 10-6), and subsequently paying him billionzzzzz of $$$$'s made me realize that we're f*cked as a fanbase. Forever.

And ever.

Give me Steve Bono over this clown.

Bane
08-14-2010, 04:59 PM
Im not sure there is a true #1 QB on this team.....I clearly hope that Croyle isnt outplaying Cassel by the time the season starts, because he isnt the answer either.

Haley cant afford to get off to a start like this team did last year. I still think he will be dead man walking if they start off 0-6 or something like that.

Agreed.BC has all the skills that could make him a great Qb but the kid just can't stay healthy.If he out plays Casshole leading into the reg season.........HOLY SHIT!!!!!

Pawnmower
08-14-2010, 05:01 PM
The acquisition of Cassel (after taking a 16-0 New England team to 10-6)...

Give me Steve Bono over this clown.

Sorry to split hairs but I think it was 11-5.....

God I don't really know about Bono though....it would have to be a REALLY bad season for me to wish that upon our team...

Deberg_1990
08-14-2010, 05:04 PM
If he out plays Casshole leading into the reg season.........HOLY SHIT!!!!!

If that happens everyone will be calling for Cassels head.....but im not sure Haley has the stones to sit Cassel.

Whats sad is, they aquired Cassel thinking that it would be a faster way to rebuild. Well, if the team is gonna lose big for the first few seasons anyways, why not just draft a top QB with more upside?? I dont get it.

RedThat
08-14-2010, 05:05 PM
In regards to TJ,

taking up blockers is one thing, being physically abused is another. I recall on a few occasions last night he was being blown off the ball. The guy was being physically mandled.

He plays like a boy.

bobbything
08-14-2010, 05:05 PM
Sorry to split hairs but I think it was 11-5.....

God I don't really know about Bono though....it would have to be a REALLY bad season for me to wish that upon our team...
Oh, yeah. I think the even missed the playoffs that year.

Remember, though, Steve Bono was a Pro Bowler* If Cassel tosses 21 TD's against only 10 INT's, I'll be happy.

*as an alternate

Pawnmower
08-14-2010, 05:06 PM
If that happens everyone will be calling for Cassels head.....but im not sure Haley has the stones to sit Cassel.

Whats sad is, they aquired Cassel thinking that it would be a faster way to rebuild. Well, if the team is gonna lose big for the first few seasons anyways, why not just draft a top QB with more upside?? I dont get it.

I can't answer that either but I think they truly though Cassel would be a fit....His season in 2008 was pretty good when he got thrown into the 1st string role.

Yes, he took a LOT of sacks but look at the rest of his numbers, very solid.

Pawnmower
08-14-2010, 05:07 PM
If Cassel tosses 21 TD's against only 10 INT's, I'll be happy.



He was 21 & 11 with the Pats

RedThat
08-14-2010, 05:10 PM
If that happens everyone will be calling for Cassels head.....but im not sure Haley has the stones to sit Cassel.

Whats sad is, they aquired Cassel thinking that it would be a faster way to rebuild. Well, if the team is gonna lose big for the first few seasons anyways, why not just draft a top QB with more upside?? I dont get it.

If I was in their situation what I would do is make this a put up or shutup year for Cassel. Create all the pressure in the world towards him.

If he sucks, bench him. Play Croyle this year. Find out what you really have in him. Doubt that happens though.

Sully
08-14-2010, 05:10 PM
In regards to TJ,

taking up blockers is one thing, being physically abused is another. I recall on a few occasions last night he was being blown off the ball. The guy was being physically mandled.

He plays like a boy.

Like I said to Hamas, and i'll go watch again. I don't recall him being blown back once, let alone a few occasions.

Pawnmower
08-14-2010, 05:10 PM
Remember, though, Steve Bono was a Pro Bowler*

*as an alternate

Bono Never had as good of a year as Cassel had in his 1st season, ever.

And he played 15 seasons.

GloryDayz
08-14-2010, 05:10 PM
My initial thoughts remain that I'm still glad I'm no longer a season ticket holder. I have a feeling it'll save me tons of cash by going the scalper route... I was actually thinking that the Royals that donned football uniforms...

Deberg_1990
08-14-2010, 05:11 PM
I can't answer that either but I think they truly though Cassel would be a fit....His season in 2008 was pretty good when he got thrown into the 1st string role.

Yes, he took a LOT of sacks but look at the rest of his numbers, very solid.

I will pray for those 21 and 10 numbers.....but what i see now is a guy whos hesitant with his throws and doesnt trust his own arm. He holds onto the ball too long because it takes him forever to make a decision. I have no idea what he was like in NE.

Bane
08-14-2010, 05:12 PM
If that happens everyone will be calling for Cassels head.....but im not sure Haley has the stones to sit Cassel.

Whats sad is, they aquired Cassel thinking that it would be a faster way to rebuild. Well, if the team is gonna lose big for the first few seasons anyways, why not just draft a top QB with more upside?? I dont get it.

To me that should have been the first problem dealt with in a rebuild job of this caliber.When I saw that we traded for Casshole I was so fuggn pissed. As far as the what if on Casshole.....I'm betting he plays no matter how good BC looks unless he gets injured.Casshole is our guy no matter what for now.

Pawnmower
08-14-2010, 05:15 PM
I will pray for those 21 and 10 numbers.....but what i see now is a guy whos hesitant with his throws and doesnt trust his own arm. He holds onto the ball too long because it takes him forever to make a decision. I have no idea what he was like in NE.

http://www.nfl.com/players/mattcassel/profile?id=CAS541133

Look at 2008 stats...Not world beating but damn solid.

I am praying also my friend.

Bane
08-14-2010, 05:17 PM
http://www.nfl.com/players/mattcassel/profile?id=CAS541133

Look at 2008 stats...Not world beating but damn solid.

I am praying also my friend.

Respectfully......Look at the team he had around him then.He will not get a team like that here.

tarheel23
08-14-2010, 05:17 PM
Both QBs had a turnover. Brodie was by far the best QB last night.

Pawnmower
08-14-2010, 05:17 PM
QUOTE:Originally Posted by KnowMo2724
I will leave this message board forever if the Chiefs finish with a better record than Denver.

Was that just for this season? Or ever?

DaneMcCloud
08-14-2010, 05:17 PM
Why all the Kestahn Moore hate? He caught the ball very well out of the backfield and had a nice run. Keep in mind, he's an undrafted free agent rookie and IMO, he's showing quite a bit right out the gate. If he can keep it up, I think the guy's a keeper.

The tight ends suck. Leonard Pope dropped what would have been a key reception but dropping passes is nothing new for the Chiefs tight ends.

I think everyone's pretty much covered the massive suckage of the front seven. Micheal Turner could have run for 200 yards in the first half had he stayed in the game. The Chiefs are just lucky that the Falcons don't have any depth at running back because it could have gotten very ugly, very quickly.

The offensive line still has major issues. Brendan Albert and Barry Richardson (playing the same position, unfortunately) looked like the only true NFL starters. Waters, Niswanger, Nsukwe and O'Callaghan all sucked ass. Asamoah has a long way to go if the Chiefs were to stick him on the left side. He needs to work the right side exclusively but at this point in time, he's not an NFL starter. Maybe that will change in over the course of the next 5 weeks but it looks to me like he's got a way to go.

Croyle obviously moved the team much better than Cassel and took a few tough hits but was able to get up and respond. I think the battle between he and Cassel should be worth watching because if Croyle consistently moves the team while Cassel does not, I think Cassel will be on a short leash.

As he should be.

Pawnmower
08-14-2010, 05:18 PM
Respectfully......Look at the team he had around him then.He will not get a team like that here.

Oh I agree that he had a much better team around him, but many here refuse to concede that point. It is much easier to just put the blame 100% with Cassel i guess.

Pawnmower
08-14-2010, 05:19 PM
Croyle obviously moved the team much better than Cassel ...

Against second stringers or worse...

I could agree if it was comparing apples to apples, but it isn't.

Bane
08-14-2010, 05:19 PM
Why all the Kestahn Moore hate? He caught the ball very well out of the backfield and had a nice run. Keep in mind, he's an undrafted free agent rookie and IMO, he's showing quite a bit right out the gate. If he can keep it up, I think the guy's a keeper.

The tight ends suck. Leonard Pope dropped what would have been a key reception but dropping passes is nothing new for the Chiefs tight ends.

I think everyone's pretty much covered the massive suckage of the front seven. Micheal Turner could have run for 200 yards in the first half had he stayed in the game. The Chiefs are just lucky that the Falcons don't have any depth at running back because it could have gotten very ugly, very quickly.

The offensive line still has major issues. Brendan Albert and Barry Richardson (playing the same position, unfortunately) looked like the only true NFL starters. Waters, Niswanger, Nsukwe and O'Callaghan all sucked ass. Asamoah has a long way to go if the Chiefs were to stick him on the left side. He needs to work the right side exclusively but at this point in time, he's not an NFL starter. Maybe that will change in over the course of the next 5 weeks but it looks to me like he's got a way to go.

Croyle obviously moved the team much better than Cassel and took a few tough hits but was able to get up and respond. I think the battle between he and Cassel should be worth watching because if Croyle consistently moves the team while Cassel does not, I think Cassel will be on a short leash.

As he should be.

I would hope so.:thumb:

RedThat
08-14-2010, 05:20 PM
I can't answer that either but I think they truly though Cassel would be a fit....His season in 2008 was pretty good when he got thrown into the 1st string role.

Yes, he took a LOT of sacks but look at the rest of his numbers, very solid.

He was in a totally different situation/environment.

He was on NE, a great team. A winning organization that asked him to play simple and not lose games. Totally different situation/environment from that of the Chiefs.

Here in KC he is asked to be the guy on a losing team and the guy this team will depend on to make them better. Bottomline, his role is completely different in KC than from NE.

Some players perform better pending on the situation/environment. Imo Cassel just happens to be one of those players. I don't see Cassel suiting the role KC is asking from him. I see him as more of a guy who would do what NE asked of him.

He is what he is, a backup that has minimal to no upside.

Sully
08-14-2010, 05:22 PM
Why all the Kestahn Moore hate? He caught the ball very well out of the backfield and had a nice run. Keep in mind, he's an undrafted free agent rookie and IMO, he's showing quite a bit right out the gate. If he can keep it up, I think the guy's a keeper.

I don't hate Moore. I saw some flashes. but just a lot of VERY rookie mistakes.

A huge missed blitz pick up (that looked worse than LJ) that led to a sack.

On the 2-minute drive, going for extra yards rather than getting out of bounds.

A dropped pass that wasn't huge, since he'd have been tackled for a loss, but something a guy trying to make the team should catch, anyway.

Pawnmower
08-14-2010, 05:25 PM
He was in a totally different situation/environment.

He was on NE, a great team. A winning organization that asked him to play simple and not lose games. Totally different situation/environment from that of the Chiefs.

He is what he is, a backup that has minimal to no upside.

I dont see how you got from point A to point B with your logic. The team was better in NE but it is all Cassel's fault in KC?

Sorry I just don't quite get your point....I think the goal of Pioli is to build a better team around Cassel in KC.....He only has had one season (and not even a full one) so why not give him 1-2 more before jumping to any big conclusions?

If Cassel can have a good season with a solid team in NE, why not let him try that in KC.

Are you saying we should be trying to keep the rest of our team shitty and find a QB who can win with a shitty team?

DaneMcCloud
08-14-2010, 05:26 PM
Against second stringers or worse...

I could agree if it was comparing apples to apples, but it isn't.

Bullshit.

Atlanta had first string players on defense in the first half when Croyle took the field.

Secondly, Croyle was quicker with his decision making and quite often, found the "best" open receiver. Pope dropped a ball within the 5 yard line that could have set up an easy score. He threw the ball well to McCluster and Moore.

I'd suggest you re-watch the game.

Pawnmower
08-14-2010, 05:27 PM
Bullshit.

Atlanta had first string players on defense in the first half when Croyle took the field.


So you are saying that Croyle faced as good of caliber of D in terms of # of 1st stringers to second stringers?

Care to wager on that?

DaneMcCloud
08-14-2010, 05:27 PM
Sorry I just don't quite get your point....I think the goal of Pioli is to build a better team around Cassel in KC.....He only has had one season (and not even a full one) so why not give him 1-2 more before jumping to any big conclusions?


Why not?

Well, how about for ONE, he hasn't shown the ABILITY to be three year starter, let alone the ability to be a Franchise QB.

He's slow to make decisions, takes WAY too many sacks, is fairly inaccurate and has a noodle arm.

Need I go on?

DaneMcCloud
08-14-2010, 05:29 PM
So you are saying that Croyle faced as good of caliber of D in terms of # of 1st stringers to second stringers?

Care to wager on that?

IT DOESN'T MATTER.

JFC, Dude.

If you're just a Cassel ass-sniffer, you'd better just put me on ignore because I'll just continue to rip him to shreds each and every time he plays poorly.

And I wouldn't want to hurt your feelings.

Pawnmower
08-14-2010, 05:30 PM
Why not?

Well, how about for ONE, he hasn't shown the ABILITY to be three year starter, let alone the ability to be a Franchise QB.

He's slow to make decisions, takes WAY too many sacks, is fairly inaccurate and has a noodle arm.

Need I go on?


No, you don't need to go on. Your position is fairly clear.

How bout you tell me how many seasons you would give a new staff to turn around the WORST team in franchise history. They haven't even had ONE full season together yet as a team / staff.

So, how many would you give them?

Bane
08-14-2010, 05:31 PM
I dont see how you got from point A to point B with your logic. The team was better in NE but it is all Cassel's fault in KC?

Sorry I just don't quite get your point....I think the goal of Pioli is to build a better team around Cassel in KC.....He only has had one season (and not even a full one) so why not give him 1-2 more before jumping to any big conclusions?

If Cassel can have a good season with a solid team in NE, why not let him try that in KC.

Are you saying we should be trying to keep the rest of our team shitty and find a QB who can win with a shitty team?


How about the FACT that he could not win a starting QB spot at any point in his career.
Think what you want,hope what you want,NE was what it was in spite of Casshole just like KC will be.

Pawnmower
08-14-2010, 05:31 PM
IT DOESN'T MATTER.

JFC, Dude.

If you're just a Cassel ass-sniffer, you'd better just put me on ignore because I'll just continue to rip him to shreds each and every time he plays poorly.

And I wouldn't want to hurt your feelings.

I'm not, and you obviously are too much of a pussy to put your money where your mouth is, so go home to your two dads and kick rocks.

Calling me names won't make you correct, when you know you are wrong.

Pawnmower
08-14-2010, 05:32 PM
How about the FACT that he could not win a starting QB spot at any point in his career.
Think what you want,hope what you want,NE was what it was in spite of Casshole just like KC will be.

Are you fuckign serious? He was behind TOM BRADY for the 1st 3 seasons of his career...

Are you retarded?

DaneMcCloud
08-14-2010, 05:34 PM
No, you don't need to go on. Your position is fairly clear.

How bout you tell me how many seasons you would give a new staff to turn around the WORST team in franchise history. They haven't even had ONE full season together yet as a team / staff.

So, how many would you give them?

You're stating that the 2-14 team was the worst in team history?

I'd disagree. I saw some pretty shitty teams in the 70's that had far less talent.

Secondly, I would have NEVER hired Pioli and the coaches he brought in. They totally FUCKED UP the 2009 NFL Draft (which is undoubtedly, the worst draft in franchise history) and after years of loading up for a 4-3 defense, they dumped high draft picks moved to a 3-4 WITHOUT a true nose tackle.

Dumb, dumb, dumb, dumb, DUMB.

DaneMcCloud
08-14-2010, 05:35 PM
Are you fuckign serious? He was behind TOM BRADY for the 1st 3 seasons of his career...

Are you retarded?

What was his excuse at USC?

And if he was so talented and ultra-competitive, why didn't he transfer to another school where he could start, once he found out he coudn't compete with Leinart or Palmer?

Pawnmower
08-14-2010, 05:36 PM
If you're just a Cassel ass-sniffer, you'd better just put me on ignore because I'll just continue to rip him to shreds each and every time he plays poorly.

And I wouldn't want to hurt your feelings.

I'm really not. Believe me...I mean unless we have completely different definitions of the word.

All I have ever said about Cassel is I am gonna give him 8 more games before I pass any judgments.

I guess if that makes me an ass sniffer...

I mean the staff hasn't even had a whole season yet......

I don't feel like getting all hysterical and benching Cassel at this point or making him the number 2, I think it is premature to do so...

Thats all..

Sully
08-14-2010, 05:37 PM
I love how my thread starter didn't mention Cassell once, yet this is going to turn into another of 1800 Cassell-bashing threads.
Is there an argument thathasn't been made for or against him, yet?

Pawnmower
08-14-2010, 05:37 PM
You're stating that the 2-14 team was the worst in team history?

I'd disagree. I saw some pretty shitty teams in the 70's that had far less talent.

Secondly, I would have NEVER hired Pioli and the coaches he brought in. They totally ****ED UP the 2009 NFL Draft (which is undoubtedly, the worst draft in franchise history) and after years of loading up for a 4-3 defense, they dumped high draft picks moved to a 3-4 WITHOUT a true nose tackle.

Dumb, dumb, dumb, dumb, DUMB.

2-14 was our worst record in history, all else is subjective....That is the main thing anyone measures a team by is wins/losses. So yes, 2-14 was our worst team in history.

tarheel23
08-14-2010, 05:39 PM
So you are saying that Croyle faced as good of caliber of D in terms of # of 1st stringers to second stringers?

Care to wager on that?

Croyle was also playing with some second stringer's on the chiefs side as well.

DaneMcCloud
08-14-2010, 05:39 PM
2-14 was our worst record in history, all else is subjective....That is the main thing anyone measures a team by is wins/losses. So yes, 2-14 was our worst team in history.

I guess you weren't lucky enough to watch the Frank Gansz led 3-13-1 team or the Paul Wiggin/Tom Bettis led 2-12 team.

Pawnmower
08-14-2010, 05:41 PM
Croyle was also playing with some second stringer's on the chiefs side as well.

Exactly...It is kind of an apples/oranges to try and compare their numbers....

I am SURE we will get to see more though....Bring on the competition! Competition is a good thing....I just feel I need to see more from both players versus 1st stringers before I could possibly jump to any severe conclusions like making Matt #2.

Bane
08-14-2010, 05:41 PM
Are you ****ign serious? He was behind TOM BRADY for the 1st 3 seasons of his career...

Are you retarded?

You asked why and I answered.If that is retarded in your book then fine.I love it when know it alls ask questions,or present problems and when their given answers and solutions everyone but them is retarded.:rolleyes:

RedThat
08-14-2010, 05:43 PM
I dont see how you got from point A to point B with your logic. The team was better in NE but it is all Cassel's fault in KC?

Sorry I just don't quite get your point....I think the goal of Pioli is to build a better team around Cassel in KC.....He only has had one season (and not even a full one) so why not give him 1-2 more before jumping to any big conclusions?

If Cassel can have a good season with a solid team in NE, why not let him try that in KC.

Are you saying we should be trying to keep the rest of our team shitty and find a QB who can win with a shitty team?

I just don't think he is the guy. I don't see him as a starter but more as a backup QB. I don't see how he is going to make this team better? I really don't. I don't see him adjusting to the role from being a backup QB on a winning team to a starting QB on a losing team. I think building around him is covering up the sh*tiness of his play. Sorry for sounding pessimistic there. My point is, we should play the best players possible. And for us, clearly, it's Croyle. We are a sh*tty team with nothing to lose.

Pawnmower
08-14-2010, 05:43 PM
I guess you weren't lucky enough to watch the Frank Gansz led 3-13-1 team or the Paul Wiggin/Tom Bettis led 2-12 team.

Ok so lets say those teams were equally as bad or very close, that doesn't change anything in my argument. We can agree that the 2-14 team was TERRIBLE, and if not the worst then ALMOST the worst tram in franchise history.

Since we are in agreement on that:

How many seasons do you think in fairness a new staff should get to make the playoffs or go 8-8 or some kind of other bench mark?

DaneMcCloud
08-14-2010, 05:44 PM
Exactly...It is kind of an apples/oranges to try and compare their numbers....



I'm not talking about numbers. Did you watch the game on a big HDTV or listen to it on the radio or on a computer monitor?

I've watched it twice, on my 58" HDTV and a 46" HDTV. Croyle, regardless of the offensive line and the defense he faced was much quicker in his reads and decision making. He moved the team with ease up and down the field and if he receivers wouldn't have dropped critical passes, the Chiefs would have had more points on the board.

I could care less about stats. I saw with my own two eyes that Croyle was the better of the two QB's last night and if that trend continues throughout preseason, Cassel will be on a short leash.

Pawnmower
08-14-2010, 05:45 PM
And for us, clearly, it's Croyle. We are a sh*tty team with nothing to lose.

I guess I don't agree that it is "clear." I think if it was that clear, the front office would make the change despite the money. That being said, I think it has a good chance of being clear in about 8 games or so.

RedThat
08-14-2010, 05:47 PM
I'm not talking about numbers. Did you watch the game on a big HDTV or listen to it on the radio or on a computer monitor?

I've watched it twice, on my 58" HDTV and a 46" HDTV. Croyle, regardless of the offensive line and the defense he faced was much quicker in his reads and decision making. He moved the team with ease up and down the field and if he receivers wouldn't have dropped critical passes, the Chiefs would have had more points on the board.

I could care less about stats. I saw with my own two eyes that Croyle was the better of the two QB's last night and if that trend continues throughout preseason, Cassel will be on a short leash.

What impressed me about Croyle last night was his delivery. I loved the way he threw the ball with great zip and accuracy. Clearly waaaay better than Cassel.

Marcellus
08-14-2010, 05:48 PM
I'm not talking about numbers. Did you watch the game on a big HDTV or listen to it on the radio or on a computer monitor?

I've watched it twice, on my 58" HDTV and a 46" HDTV. Croyle, regardless of the offensive line and the defense he faced was much quicker in his reads and decision making. He moved the team with ease up and down the field and if he receivers wouldn't have dropped critical passes, the Chiefs would have had more points on the board.

I could care less about stats. I saw with my own two eyes that Croyle was the better of the two QB's last night and if that trend continues throughout preseason, Cassel will be on a short leash.

I haven't watched the game yet I have it DVR'd but I will be interested to look at this.
I also believe Cassel will be on a short leash this season. It is make or break for him and Pioli and Haley aren't going to let him fuck the season up if everyone else is progressing.

I have been in the camp of letting him play and see what happens but if he is sucking ass you have to make a change.

RedThat
08-14-2010, 05:48 PM
If Cassel starts, the only way this team will win is if they run the ball. Seriously.

KCrockaholic
08-14-2010, 05:48 PM
Croyle was terrible in this game. He did OK at best until his INT. That was just dumb. I saw nothing in him that told me, he can be the guy. We are gonna have to ride it out with Cassel if he can have any time to throw the ball.

DaneMcCloud
08-14-2010, 05:49 PM
How many seasons do you think in fairness a new staff should get to make the playoffs or go 8-8 or some kind of other bench mark?

You really don't get this, do you?

I don't give a shit about the "staff". I care about the personnel. No amount of coaching will turn Jovan Belcher into Ray Lewis or Jon McGraw into Ed Reed. No amount of coaching will turn Matt Cassel into Tom Brady or Jerheme Urban into Larry Fitzgerald.

It's ALL about the talent and the Chiefs are STILL one of the least talented squads in the league. The 2009 draft was a fucking abortion that set back this team at least one year, if not two. When the best player from an entire draft, especially when you're picking 3rd overall in each round, is a 7th round supplemental draft choice kicker, your front office has issues.

But back to your question: I give this staff THIS SEASON to get to 8-8 before I begin calling for their heads. If Todd Haley pulls the same shit as last year, starting Mike Goff over Wade Smith and Lance Long over Dwayne Bowe and Corey Mays over Derrick Johnson, he should be fired at the end of the year.

PERIOD.

Best players on the field at ALL times. NO exceptions.

Matt Cassel included.

Bane
08-14-2010, 05:50 PM
What impressed me about Croyle last night was his delivery. I loved the way he threw the ball with great zip and accuracy. Clearly waaaay better than Cassel.

BC has a cannon for an arm and is very smart.he just cant stay healthy.Or hasn't as a Chief yet.That's why we have Casshole right now and he will never beat out BC in a head to head QB competition.He may get the spot because he's Pioli's boy,but not because he's a better QB.

RedThat
08-14-2010, 05:51 PM
Croyle was terrible in this game. He did OK at best until his INT. That was just dumb. I saw nothing in him that told me, he can be the guy. We are gonna have to ride it out with Cassel if he can have any time to throw the ball.

I don't agree w/ terrible. I thought he performed well enough to convince me he has better stuff than Cassel.

The int, ok fine that was terrible. But I think that was just simply miscommunication between the WR and the Qb. That happens.

*Croyle may not be the guy, but I think he is the best we have.

Pawnmower
08-14-2010, 05:52 PM
I'm not talking about numbers. Did you watch the game on a big HDTV or listen to it on the radio or on a computer monitor?


I did have to watch it on a shitty monitor 8-(

19 inch LCD from about 6 inches away.

:mad:

I am not necesarily talking about numbers either, I am saying even with subjective stuff it is hard to compare since more 1st string defense was in play with Cassel.

I am also willing to concede that you MIGHT be right. Cassel might suck...I just don't know it yet..I am hoping against hope that the staff and front office knows what theyre doing and that after 8 regular season games you will have changed your mind about Cassel....

I guess my thing is, I am willing to give him 8 regular season games. If others don't want to, that is their choice. I really hope that in a couple months I will be quoting these posts and laughing at you and everyone else who has given up on Matt.

But, I do realize that it could go the other way. Cassel could continue to suck and, hell, even be worse than last season.

I hope not though.

mcaj22
08-14-2010, 05:52 PM
it would be great to have a defensive lineman that can split double teams and dominate a back field and blow up run plays in a game. Ya know like the other good 3-4 defenses have on their teams, that would be exciting to watch. Real talent. I hope we get that soon, invest that 60 million dollars into those guys please, wherever they are.

DaneMcCloud
08-14-2010, 05:53 PM
Croyle was terrible in this game. He did OK at best until his INT. That was just dumb. I saw nothing in him that told me, he can be the guy. We are gonna have to ride it out with Cassel if he can have any time to throw the ball.

:shake:

8-16 with at least two catchable balls dropped. The INT occurred because Urban didn't turn around and look for the ball. It was ALL on the WR because it was a timing pattern.

Secondly, Croyle made quick decisions and moved the team up and down the field.

At the sake of sounding like a broken record, you need to re-watch the game or learn how to properly evaluate game film because you're dead wrong about this (and I think you've made some other comments in threads that I strongly disagree with).

KCrockaholic
08-14-2010, 05:54 PM
I don't agree w/ terrible. I thought he performed well enough to convince me he has better stuff than Cassel.

The int, ok fine that was terrible. But I think that was just simply miscommunication between the WR and the Qb. That happens.

*Croyle may not be the guy, but I think he is the best we have.

Ok, he wasn't Thigpen in pre-season terrible....

But Croyle will always look better than Cassel when he throws the ball. He has great mechanics. Great arm strength, average accuracy. He has more zip than Cassel will ever have, and a faster release.

But Croyle always seems to make a bonehead throw like the one last night. He over threw Urban on that play. Granted, Urban is slow, and should have been in that open area, you as the QB are responsible for a play like that. Urban wasn't in his spot yet, and he has to recognize that.

Pawnmower
08-14-2010, 05:55 PM
You really don't get this, do you?

But back to your question: I give this staff THIS SEASON to get to 8-8 before I begin calling for their heads. If Todd Haley pulls the same shit as last year, starting Mike Goff over Wade Smith and Lance Long over Dwayne Bowe and Corey Mays over Derrick Johnson, he should be fired at the end of the year.


I think we are in more of agreement than disagreement.

7 games is kind of my cutoff, not 8...(7-9 being 'acceptable' this season) but hey that's pretty close to yours.

If we win 8 games I will actually be pretty happy, and anything above that would be gravy.

DaneMcCloud
08-14-2010, 05:57 PM
Ok, he wasn't Thigpen in pre-season terrible....

But Croyle will always look better than Cassel when he throws the ball. He has great mechanics. Great arm strength, average accuracy. He has more zip than Cassel will ever have, and a faster release.

But Croyle always seems to make a bonehead throw like the one last night. He over threw Urban on that play. Granted, Urban is slow, and should have been in that open area, you as the QB are responsible for a play like that. Urban wasn't in his spot yet, and he has to recognize that.

It was a timing pattern. Urban is NOT slow, he just didn't run his route correctly.

The same exact things happened to Trent Green his first season in KC. He had 24 INT's because the receivers sucked ass.

That would not have happened with Bowe or Chambers running that route.

DaneMcCloud
08-14-2010, 05:59 PM
I think we are in more of agreement than disagreement.

7 games is kind of my cutoff, not 8...(7-9 being 'acceptable' this season) but hey that's pretty close to yours.

If we win 8 games I will actually be pretty happy, and anything above that would be gravy.

Look, I just want to see the best players on the field. None of this crap from last year when the better players were on the sidelines, which was completely opposite of Haley's continual use of the phrase "sacred cows".

This team has a long way to go but it'll take even longer to get their if their best players are on the bench.

KCrockaholic
08-14-2010, 05:59 PM
It was a timing pattern. Urban is NOT slow, he just didn't run his route correctly.

The same exact things happened to Trent Green his first season in KC. He had 24 INT's because the receivers sucked ass.

That would not have happened with Bowe or Chambers running that route.

I understand it was a timing pattern, and it was a screw up on both parts. Urban wasn't in his spot, and Croyle needs to recognize that and either take a split second longer or look somewhere else. It was a good read of the defense by Croyle but a bad decision.

DeezNutz
08-14-2010, 06:27 PM
I'm not talking about numbers. Did you watch the game on a big HDTV or listen to it on the radio or on a computer monitor?

I've watched it twice, on my 58" HDTV and a 46" HDTV. Croyle, regardless of the offensive line and the defense he faced was much quicker in his reads and decision making. He moved the team with ease up and down the field and if he receivers wouldn't have dropped critical passes, the Chiefs would have had more points on the board.

I could care less about stats. I saw with my own two eyes that Croyle was the better of the two QB's last night and if that trend continues throughout preseason, Cassel will be on a short leash.

I don't think Cassel has any type of leash, let alone a short one. 60-some-odd million bought him a pair of scissors.

the Talking Can
08-14-2010, 06:34 PM
replay of game in 30 mins in ATL area....not sure i have the heart to watch it

RedThat
08-14-2010, 06:43 PM
BC has a cannon for an arm and is very smart.he just cant stay healthy.Or hasn't as a Chief yet.That's why we have Casshole right now and he will never beat out BC in a head to head QB competition.He may get the spot because he's Pioli's boy,but not because he's a better QB.

I agree Cassel is Pioli's boy. But we don't have him simply because Croyle is injury prone. Cassel is here because Pioli feels he is a good quarterback that will win him ball games.

milkman
08-14-2010, 07:00 PM
Against second stringers or worse...

I could agree if it was comparing apples to apples, but it isn't.

I've said this a number of times, but the Falcons left a lot of their starters in after Croyle came into the game.

The Facons announcers commented on that fact a couple of times, including the play in which Curtis Lofton was hurt (turned out to be cramps apparently).

Stop spreading bullshit.

FAX
08-14-2010, 07:04 PM
It's very sad that Cassel is a gym rat, coach's pet kind of player. I have developed zero confidence in his leadership ability ... let alone his ability to throw a decent pass over 10 yards.

If he doesn't get his act together this year, I expect another QB next year ... from somewhere. He's part of the problem, at this point, not part of the solution.

FAX

the Talking Can
08-14-2010, 07:15 PM
i'm going to watch jackson for 1 series

plays

1 - easily pushed to right, out of run play - 7 yards
2 - stood up, but does nothing, makes no effort to move, literally
3 - pass protection, runs forwards and stops as soon as he engages OL, makes no effort to do anything
4 - stood up, does nothing, makes no effort, turner runs right by him for 10
5 - stood up, does nothing, makes no effort to shed blocker, run up middle
6 - false start on someone
7 - stood up, does nothing, makes no effort to disengage, turner runs by him for 6-7 yards
8 - driven 4 yards off line of scrimmage on run to the left, again makes no effort to shed
9 - driven 3 yards off los, makes no effort to disengage, run up middle for 4-5
10 - toss sweep is stuffed by someone, not jackson, series over


frankly he looked more pathetic than i remembered....

here is what he does on every play:

grab OL
stand still
hold on to OL
do nothing

no rip moves, no effort to shed, no drive, no nothing....he was embarrassingly easy to neutralize, showed no desire at all

he sure as hell does not deserve to be a starter in the nfl

Pawnmower
08-14-2010, 07:26 PM
i'm going to watch jackson for 1 series


Cool, another "unbiased" post.

Why one series? Who picked the series?

Why not post results from every play he was in?



Posting your biased results from one series of your choosing means 2 things, jack and shit, and Jack is ramming your dad's ass right now.

the Talking Can
08-14-2010, 07:28 PM
at the 5:34 mark of the second series jackson gets blown off the line 4 yards, after doing nothing for several plays

white drops 2nd wide open pass in drive


he just really sucks, at least Dorsey plays like he cares....

the Talking Can
08-14-2010, 07:29 PM
gilberry and studebaker - our 2nd team - chase ryan out of pocket to end 2nd series...jackson was out

the Talking Can
08-14-2010, 07:30 PM
it just dawned on me...did magee even play?

Sully
08-14-2010, 07:47 PM
it just dawned on me...did magee even play?
He did. And actually got a little push on a few plays.

KCChiefsFan88
08-14-2010, 08:18 PM
Apparently only the dumbasses on this board who were telling everyone and anyone back in April that offensive line was not a need area to address early in the draft and Fat Scott/Haley are surprised by how pathetic the offensive line looks.

Most of us saw this coming.

Sully
08-14-2010, 08:20 PM
i'm going to watch jackson for 1 series

plays

1 - easily pushed to right, out of run play - 7 yards
2 - stood up, but does nothing, makes no effort to move, literally
3 - pass protection, runs forwards and stops as soon as he engages OL, makes no effort to do anything
4 - stood up, does nothing, makes no effort, turner runs right by him for 10
5 - stood up, does nothing, makes no effort to shed blocker, run up middle
6 - false start on someone
7 - stood up, does nothing, makes no effort to disengage, turner runs by him for 6-7 yards
8 - driven 4 yards off line of scrimmage on run to the left, again makes no effort to shed
9 - driven 3 yards off los, makes no effort to disengage, run up middle for 4-5
10 - toss sweep is stuffed by someone, not jackson, series over


After reading this, I thought to myself, "What could I have possibly been watching to have such a different view of that drive as someone else?" So i went back and watched it again. Almost play for play, i disagree STRONGLY with your "assessment" of Jackson's play.
I don't want to come across as a Jackson apologist (I'm not). it was a bad draft pick, and he needs to get tons better. But let's not let our hate of the pick force us to dishonestly see things.

I just watched the same series three times, and took play-by-play notes of my own, for comparison.


1) Was absolutely NOT pushed to his right.
2) Again, no push, but did move his guy toward the point of attack.
3) Was double-teamed. made no push. Stonewalled.
4) Stood up, could've had a chance at a play if the OL hadn't turned his shoulders. Mortal sin on DL. Poor play.
5) Held position.
6) Offside by Hali.
7) Slanted in on this play, you can see a backer (and a safety, I believe) come to take his place. Just piss poor luck on the playcall. Not at all his fault.
8) Sweep the other way. Was absolutely NOT driven 4 yards off the ball. His only backward movement came after the ball had crossed the LoS and he was pursuing to the pile.
9) Held LOS till ball crossed.
10) Actually MADE that play into a loss of yardage. had he not played the guard the way he did (not letting him cross his face), then the guard blocks out on Vrabel, and the back may gain ydg (who knows, as we were swarming).

So, I'm guessing here, but it seems that there is some bias in your viewing. On plays 1, 2, 3, 8, 9, and 10 (1, 8, 9, 10 especially) you somehow saw it in the worst light possible. Enough so that you were, by my eval, completely incorrect about those plays.

Is TJ the guy we want there? No
Should he be MUCH better? Yes
Is he a difference maker at all? No


But that aside, let's not make things up to suit our arguments.

Bane
08-14-2010, 08:31 PM
I agree Cassel is Pioli's boy. But we don't have him simply because Croyle is injury prone. Cassel is here because Pioli feels he is a good quarterback that will win him ball games.

I really want to believe that,but I think he is wrong.

the Talking Can
08-14-2010, 08:34 PM
After reading this, I thought to myself, "What could I have possibly been watching to have such a different view of that drive as someone else? So i went back and watched it again. Almost play for play, i disagree STRONGLY with your "assessment" of Jackson'
s play.
I don't want to come across as a Jackson apologist (I'm not). it was a bad draft pick, and he needs to get tons better. But let's not let our hate of the pick force us to dishonestly see things.

I just watched the same series three times, and took play-by-play notes of my own, for comparison.


1) Was absolutely NOT pushed to his right. Actually moved his guy to the left.
2) Again, no push, but did move his guy toward the point of attack.
3) Was double-teamed. made no push. Stonewalled.
4) Stood up, could've had a chance at a play if the OL hadn't turned his shoulders. Mortal sin on DL. Poor play.
5) Held position.
6) Offside by Hali.
7) Slanted in on this play, you can see a backer (and a safety, I believe) come to take his place. Just piss poor luck on the playcall. Not at all his fault.
8) Sweep the other way. Was absolutely NOT driven 4 yards off the ball. His only backward movement came after the ball had crossed the LoS and he was pursuing to the pile.
9) Held LOS till ball crossed.
10) Actually MADE that play into a loss of yardage. had he not played the guard the way he did (not letting him cross his face), then the guard blocks out on Vrabel, and the back may gain ydg (who knows, as we were swarming).

So, I'm guessing here, but it seems that there is some bias in your viewing. On plays 1, 2, 3, 8, 9, and 10 (1, 8, 9, 10 especially) you somehow saw it in the worst light possible. Enough so that you were, by my eval, completely incorrect about those plays.

Is TJ the guy we want there? No
Should he be MUCH better? Yes
Is he a difference maker at all? No


But that aside, let's not make things up to suit our arguments.

i'm not making things up, and you're wrong about #1 ( and #2, and #3...) which explains your opinion on everything else...

he never moves the OL anywhere the OL doesn't want to go...i have no idea how you can watch that and credit him with 'moving' anything...he's content to be engaged until the play is over on 9 out of 10 plays...

and when an OL grabs you and drives off the line, it is what is...Jackson wasn't running free towards the RB, he was being driven by the OL...on multiple occasions as i documented...

he literally didn't do anything on any play but the toss sweep, for which you can give him credit, fine, mea culpa

...once the OL gets his hands on jackson it was over, immedietely...he was neutralized....

and he showed nothing to suggest he was capable of being disruptive or even not being a patsy for the ol...

i respect your opinion, while having no clue how you came to it...

the Talking Can
08-14-2010, 08:39 PM
honestly, if you believe what you wrote about #1,2,3 then we have completely incompatible ideas of what football is and what football players do....like venus and mars different

Sully
08-14-2010, 08:55 PM
honestly, if you believe what you wrote about #1,2,3 then we have completely incompatible ideas of what football is and what football players do....like venus and mars different

I don't know what to tell you. I've coached and done film review for several years. I'm looking at it as unbiased as possible. And I didn't see one play on that first series where he was"driven" anywhere. I've stated from the beginning he got no push and was not disruptive at all. But while you give him an F, I see a C+/B- at worst. Not good enough, but not the train wreck you made it out to be.

milkman
08-14-2010, 09:07 PM
I don't know what to tell you. I've coached and done film review for several years. I'm looking at it as unbiased as possible. And I didn't see one play on that first series where he was"driven" anywhere. I've stated from the beginning he got no push and was not disruptive at all. But while you give him an F, I see a C+/B- at worst. Not good enough, but not the train wreck you made it out to be.

So he gets "no push and was not disruptive at all", and that gets a C+/B-?

Is that grading on a Bell curve?

WTF?

Sully
08-14-2010, 09:23 PM
So he gets "no push and was not disruptive at all", and that gets a C+/B-?

Is that grading on a Bell curve?

WTF?

He held the point of attack. He was average. In what world is a C+/B- not an average grade?

DeezNutz
08-14-2010, 09:24 PM
He held the point of attack. He was average. In what world is a C+/B- not an average grade?

In one not affected by grade inflation.

C = average. :)

milkman
08-14-2010, 09:32 PM
He held the point of attack. He was average. In what world is a C+/B- not an average grade?

In the NFL world, average is not getting owned on every play.

You are a football moron.

Held the point of attack?

LMAO

DeezNutz
08-14-2010, 09:34 PM
Occupying a single blocker = getting blocked. Which = fail.

LMAO.

Dave Lane
08-14-2010, 09:44 PM
I don't have any idea what people think they see in Croyle. The guy laser locks on his receivers telegraphs his throws hence the picks he's been tossing in the family nite game and the preseason game. He looks completely lost to me. He does move around better than Cassel. Cassel looks very average to me but serviceable. I think he's sadly only about Steve Bono good. I never saw a play that Cassel had over 4 seconds to throw the ball. Most were literally 2-3 seconds before he had to start evasive action and look to his check down. Hence the no yards passing. Croyle is plain and simply never going to be a good QB he has the tools more so than Cassel but his QB IQ is pretty bad for decision making.

Sully
08-14-2010, 09:47 PM
In the NFL world, average is not getting owned on every play.

You are a football moron.

Held the point of attack?

LMAO

I'd hope we could get through a conversation about a player we both agree isn't good enough without name calling... But...

A football moron?
I don't want to sound all TheGuardian on you, but I'd wager that I've played/coached/planned/evaluated far more football than you have. I've mainly coached defense, and mostly DL. I understand what I'm looking at, on both a micro and macro (how it fits in the scheme) level.
Within the 3-4 we are playing, holding the point of attack is average. If it were a 4-3, the eval would be quite a bit different. But I'm also not going to crucify the guy and make shit up because he was the wrong draft pick. It's not possible, due to where I live, but I'd be happy to sit and break it down play for play. We'd see who was a "football moron." seriously... There's no need to be a prick about this.

milkman
08-14-2010, 09:48 PM
I don't have any idea what people think they see in Croyle. The guy laser locks on his receivers telegraphs his throws hence the picks he's been tossing in the family nite game and the preseason game. He looks completely lost to me. He does move around better than Cassel. Cassel looks very average to me but serviceable. I think he's sadly only about Steve Bono good. I never saw a play that Cassel had over 4 seconds to throw the ball. Most were literally 2-3 seconds before he had to start evasive action and look to his check down. Hence the no yards passing. Croyle is plain and simply never going to be a good QB he has the tools more so than Cassel but his QB IQ is pretty bad for decision making.

Jesus.

Right now, I'd trade Cassel and a 12 pack of Coke for Steve Bono.

Problem is, whoever I'm trading with might want more than the 12 pack of Coke, and say that Cassel won't do it.

Sully
08-14-2010, 09:49 PM
Occupying a single blocker = getting blocked. Which = fail.

LMAO.

It's not good enough, for sure. But in this scheme it's not as simple as you put it.

DeezNutz
08-14-2010, 09:50 PM
I'd hope we could get through a conversation about a player we both agree isn't good enough without name calling... But...

A football moron?
I don't want to sound all TheGuardian on you, but I'd wager that I've played/coached/planned/evaluated far more football than you have. I've mainly coached defense, and mostly DL. I understand what I'm looking at, on both a micro and macro (how it fits in the scheme) level.
Within the 3-4 we are playing, holding the point of attack is average. If it were a 4-3, the eval would be quite a bit different. But I'm also not going to crucify the guy and make shit up because he was the wrong draft pick. It's not possible, due to where I live, but I'd be happy to sit and break it down play for play. We'd see who was a "football moron." seriously... There's no need to be a prick about this.

If he's simply "holding the point of attack" against a single blocker, I don't know how he can possibly be commended. The offensive player is hearing, "Nice job blocking Jackson."

He needs to get push and/or eat up multiple blockers. If he's not doing this, he's sucking shit.

milkman
08-14-2010, 09:51 PM
I'd hope we could get through a conversation about a player we both agree isn't good enough without name calling... But...

A football moron?
I don't want to sound all TheGuardian on you, but I'd wager that I've played/coached/planned/evaluated far more football than you have. I've mainly coached defense, and mostly DL. I understand what I'm looking at, on both a micro and macro (how it fits in the scheme) level.
Within the 3-4 we are playing, holding the point of attack is average. If it were a 4-3, the eval would be quite a bit different. But I'm also not going to crucify the guy and make shit up because he was the wrong draft pick. It's not possible, due to where I live, but I'd be happy to sit and break it down play for play. We'd see who was a "football moron." seriously... There's no need to be a prick about this.

I don't give a rat's ass if you sat on Cunther Gunninham's lap and studied film with him.

He's done a lot more of that than either of us, and he's still a fucking moron, as are you.

A 5 tech getting owned by a single blocker is not "average".

I don't give a rat's ass what you've done.

Sully
08-14-2010, 09:58 PM
I don't give a rat's ass if you sat on Cunther Gunninham's lap and studied film with him.

He's done a lot more of that than either of us, and he's still a fucking moron, as are you.

A 5 tech getting owned by a single blocker is not "average".

I don't give a rat's ass what you've done.

Listen...
I know it means a lot to you to try and be Dane Jr. But no matter how many names you call me or how forcefully you cuss about my takes, he certainly wasn't "owned." Watch Ron Edwards. He was "owned." Watch Corey Mays and Demorrio Williams. They were "owned."

Of course, you recently posted that you'd rather have Tyler Thigpen than Cassell, so I'm not sure why I'm arguing about football opion merits with you, anyway.

Sully
08-14-2010, 10:01 PM
If he's simply "holding the point of attack" against a single blocker, I don't know how he can possibly be commended. The offensive player is hearing, "Nice job blocking Jackson."

He needs to get push and/or eat up multiple blockers. If he's not doing this, he's sucking shit.

I guess our confusion starts there. I'm not "commending" him. I'm not sure how many times I can type that he wasn't good enough. However, I am simply arguing that he wasn't the complete train wreck that he's being made out to have been.

milkman
08-14-2010, 10:03 PM
Listen...
I know it means a lot to you to try and be Dane Jr. But no matter how many names you call me or how forcefully you cuss about my takes, he certainly wasn't "owned." Watch Ron Edwards. He was "owned." Watch Corey Mays and Demorrio Williams. They were "owned."

Of course, you recently posted that you'd rather have Tyler Thigpen than Cassell, so I'm not sure why I'm arguing about football opion merits with you, anyway.

Tyler Thigpen has actually shown improvement with the Dolphins.

Matt Cassel is still tha same piece of crap today that he was last year.

Pawnmower
08-14-2010, 10:03 PM
Jesus.

Right now, I'd trade Cassel and a 12 pack of Coke for Steve Bono.




God, I cant wait to make your sig....

Bono had 15 years in the league and didnt have ONE year as good as Matt's 1st real season (2008).

You're wrong about Bono my man.

milkman
08-14-2010, 10:04 PM
I guess our confusion starts there. I'm not "commending" him. I'm not sure how many times I can type that he wasn't good enough. However, I am simply arguing that he wasn't the complete train wreck that he's being made out to have been.

And we're arguing that he needs to at least shed a block or three to earn an average grade.

FAX
08-14-2010, 10:06 PM
You know, the thing about Jackson is that, regardless of how insane the pick was, he sucked last year. I don't think you go from suck to good in one off-season ... not at his position.

We have a choice ... either be patient with his development and hope for the best or dog cuss his ass until he quits the team. I vote for option one. He was a high pick. Some trade value would be nice.

FAX

milkman
08-14-2010, 10:09 PM
God, I cant wait to make your sig....

Bono had 15 years in the league and didnt have ONE year as good as Matt's 1st real season (2008).

You're wrong about Bono my man.

Different eras.

The rules have been tweaked so much in favor of the offense that QBs today should have better numbers than those that preceded them.

DeezNutz
08-14-2010, 10:13 PM
I guess our confusion starts there. I'm not "commending" him. I'm not sure how many times I can type that he wasn't good enough. However, I am simply arguing that he wasn't the complete train wreck that he's being made out to have been.

Fair enough. But I don't think he can possibly grade out as "average" if he's not doing his job, which is to occupy multiple blockers and/or get push.

He tipped a pass. Put this in the positive category. But you know a player sucks ass when the first thought after a tip is, "I wonder if he was able to get his hands on that because he'd been pushed off the line?"

Pawnmower
08-14-2010, 10:16 PM
Different eras.

The rules have been tweaked so much in favor of the offense that QBs today should have better numbers than those that preceded them.

Different Eras? Bono played as a starter in HOW MANY of his 15 seasons??

Wow

:shake:

I mean I know you're pretty much just a troll...

But wow...

DaneMcCloud
08-14-2010, 10:25 PM
Jared Odrick had more impact in one preseason games than Tyson Jackson has had in five preseason games and 16 regular season games.

milkman
08-14-2010, 10:27 PM
Different Eras? Bono played as a starter in HOW MANY of his 15 seasons??

Wow

:shake:

I mean I know you're pretty much just a troll...

But wow...

I'm a troll?

LMAO

I'm a charter member of this place.

DeezNutz
08-14-2010, 10:28 PM
I'm a troll?

LMAO

I'm a charter member of this place.

And trolling since day 1.

milkman
08-14-2010, 10:30 PM
Different Eras? Bono played as a starter in HOW MANY of his 15 seasons??

Wow

:shake:

I mean I know you're pretty much just a troll...

But wow...

Oh, and Bono started the same number of seasons that Cassel has to this point.

KCrockaholic
08-14-2010, 11:18 PM
I know this is off topic, but we need to trade Cassel for Charlie Whitehurst right now. That guy looked great today in his game against Tennessee.

DaneMcCloud
08-14-2010, 11:32 PM
I know this is off topic, but we need to trade Cassel for Charlie Whitehurst right now. That guy looked great today in his game against Tennessee.

Uh...

DaneMcCloud
08-14-2010, 11:35 PM
God, I cant wait to make your sig....

Bono had 15 years in the league and didnt have ONE year as good as Matt's 1st real season (2008).

You're wrong about Bono my man.

REAL?

I don't recall Bono having receivers equivalent to Randy Moss and Wes Welker. I don't recall Bono taking 47 sacks behind a very good offensive line.

The ONE season that Bono started 16 games, he had 21 TD's versus 10 interceptions. He led the Chiefs to a 13-3 record and a division title.

Regardless of stats, I doubt Cassel can lead the Chiefs to a wildcard berth, let alone thirteen wins and a division title.

Ugly Duck
08-15-2010, 12:04 AM
My initial thoughts about the Raiders 1st preseason game:

The starting offense looked like last season (minus the ridiculous Jamarcus mistakes). It was feeble - even taking into consideration that Dallas was a top-ten defense last year. 3-n-outs, DHB dropping the ball, shaky O-line, rinse, repeat. 98 yards in 6 possessions with Campbell at QB.

The starting rush defense looked way better than last year. Marion Barber & Felix Jones combined for 12 yards on 5 carries (Dallas was a top-ten rush team in '09). 2nd rnd pick Lamar Houston was a monster at DE next to Seymor. Sacked Romo twice in the 1st series. Folks were a little worried that he was a loose cannon after starting three fights in training camp, but he worked his way into the starting lineup.

Mr. Arrowhead
08-15-2010, 12:06 AM
The difference between Cassel and Brodie is Cassel plays like he dont care.

Epic Fail 007
08-15-2010, 12:34 AM
cassel dose look awful,if your a qb and can`t throw it deep ur dead/as far as preseason,to be truthful even they win it dose not mean anything,thats why i hate preseason anything.lets start brodie the whole yr he has a moxy about him,matt yes is a good guy but he dose not have it nor do i think he can get it in the near future.

milkman
08-15-2010, 12:38 AM
cassel dose look awful,if your a qb and can`t throw it deep ur dead/as far as preseason,to be truthful even they win it dose not mean anything,thats why i hate preseason anything.lets start brodie the whole yr he has a moxy about him,matt yes is a good guy but he dose not have it nor do i think he can get it in the near future.

One thing I can say with absolute certainty.

Matt Cassel didn't look as bad as this post.

And it was even edited.

LMAO

L.A. Chieffan
08-15-2010, 12:40 AM
The Cassel trade is looking better everyday if you ask me. Im excited. Cant wait for Cassel to bring the pain.

Mr. Arrowhead
08-15-2010, 12:42 AM
The Cassel trade is looking better everyday if you ask me. Im excited. Cant wait for Cassel to bring the pain.

He already has, i think i punch the wall every time he throws a pass, dam my fist is swollen.

DeezNutz
08-15-2010, 12:51 AM
The Cassel trade is looking better everyday if you ask me. Im excited. Cant wait for Cassel to bring the pain.

Denver fan. Sweet.

ChiefsCountry
08-15-2010, 02:35 AM
And the shitty thing is dumb ass Cassel could have Denver's QB. Fuck U Pioli!

the Talking Can
08-15-2010, 05:57 AM
I don't know what to tell you. I've coached and done film review for several years. I'm looking at it as unbiased as possible. And I didn't see one play on that first series where he was"driven" anywhere. I've stated from the beginning he got no push and was not disruptive at all. But while you give him an F, I see a C+/B- at worst. Not good enough, but not the train wreck you made it out to be.

it's cool, we just aren't seeing the same thing....i still liked the report

Chief Faithful
08-15-2010, 07:32 AM
I reached many of the same conclusions. I cannot understand why Williams and Edwards are starting over DJ and Lokey. On several plays the guard was able to turn Williams sealing off the gap and creating larger area for the strong safety to defend. He looked like he had no leg strength or balance.

boogblaster
08-15-2010, 10:28 AM
we have to improve at the line .. on both sides .. think we have more offense weapons than last year .. hopefully the defense can pick-up some ....

Simply Red
08-15-2010, 10:32 AM
I watched this last night very late, and again, the first half, in a groggy state today, and here's what i saw. I focused almost exclusively on the OL, DL and LBers, so most of my thoughts will concern those units. I went back and watched each play between 5-6 times, just to make sure I was seeing what I thought I was seeing.

Offensive Line:
Overall it was very meh. No one stood out as playing very well, but several players looked horrible. Beginning with O'Callaghan, who was atrocious. Last year, I thought he was a serviceable guy, but last night he was terrible in almost every aspect of the game. We saw how lost he was against speed rushers, but he was also terrible in run blocking. On the 3rd and short, however, looking at the play several times, it looks like Pope actually ****ed him and blocked the wrong guy.
Sadly, his replacement, Colin Brown (who I had very high hopes for) looked just as bad. He just didn't have the feet to block anyone with speed off the edge, and had trouble in the run game, as well. I'm puzzled, because I thought he was moved to guard, and I think he could be decent there... but at RT, he was terrible.
Speaking of guards, Asomoah was dogshit, as well. I know he's a rookie, and will give him more slack. but he looked absolutely lost.
Albert played okay. Not great, and not terrible. but certainly worse than you'd hope an elite LT should.
Niswanger held his own. He wasn't a world-beater, but he was never in the QB's lap, either...which I can't say for Weigmann.


Defensive line
Here's where I'm going to get blasted, based off of reading some other thoughts on the game. But try and stay with me.
Tyson Jackson: Still not (and may never) living up to a 1st round pick. He DID do "his job" of holding up blockers. However, he never demanded a double team, and once he was engaged with a player, he never showed the ability to shed the block. He was never once driven back, but he wasn't disruptive by any stretch.
Glen Dorsey: He looks improved, but was very undisciplined last night. He seemed to get off blocks better, but also played every play as if it were a pass play. On the typical play, he would slant quickly to the OT's outside shoulder and begin an outside rush. The problem is, he created a huge hole where he had left, and he also got in Hali's way. He did show ability in getting off blocks and exploding into the backfield, which we haven't seen much of so far in his career.
Ron Edwards: A disaster. Driven into LBers laps. Never needed a double team. The key to our defensive troubles last night.
Derek Lokey: I've never liked this guy for our team. Too small, too unathletic, gets swallowed up. Reading camp reports this year, though, he seemed to be improving. Last night that showed. He always showed a ton of energy, and last night was no difference.Actually re-established a LoS, used his hands and feet well, and moved the pocket. Still a little small, though he has certainly put on a ton of weight, but definitely improved.
Shaun Smith: Only noticed him on a couple of plays. Watching the Atlanta feed, they hardly ever referred to Chiefs players, and I just couldn't tell who I was looking at in the second half.
Gilberry: Same guy as last year. Energy, speed, disruption. Would be a great 4-3 DE.

Linebackers.
This will be short...
Tamba Hali: Played very tentatively. On on of those first run plays, as the ball was coming toward him, he actually took three steps backward. Part of this may be due to either, A) Dorsey playing undisciplined and being in his way, B) The defense called for him to replace Dorsey as Dorsey slid outside on his rush, or C) both of them didn't have a cluse what they were doing. I want to believe option B, but if that's the case, they need work.
The rest: On skates. Never met the back at the point of attack. Due to no Double teams up front, they had blockers on them early.
Studebaker: Looked decent. I'm not scared he's going to eff up huge when he's out there.


What I liked:

I hate hate hate to say this, but I liked Croyle's play. He was clearly the best QB the Chiefs had last night. I temper that a little, due to playing against 2nd teamers.
I like what McCluster brings to the table, and I refuse to spend his career pouting because i'd have rather they drafted a different guy instead of him. he could be special. And I simply don't buy the "small=fragile" argument. If anything, he'll take less punishment and beatings, because of his size and quickness. You rarely saw/see guys like Eric Metcalf, Darren Sproles, and even Wes Welker take huge hits.
Charles looked good...but I'm still worried about his shoulder.
Kestahn Moore, made two or three HORRIBLE plays, but also showed some flash. I think they should be patient with him, though I was dog-cussing his mother last night on that missed block.

In the Falcon's game; McCluster took a big hit, by the way. But he got right up.:)

JASONSAUTO
08-15-2010, 11:00 AM
One thing I can say with absolute certainty.

Matt Cassel didn't look as bad as this post.

And it was even edited.

LMAO

LMAO
Posted via Mobile Device

Bane
08-15-2010, 11:10 AM
The Cassel trade is looking better everyday if you ask me. Im excited. Cant wait for Cassel to bring the pain.
Bring the pain?:spock: He already has,the KC.

Denver fan. Sweet.

ROFLROFLROFL