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healthpellets
08-16-2010, 05:45 PM
Appeasement is the name of the game...for both sides.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/international/muslim-leaders-to-abandon-plans-for-ground-zero-community-center-1.308426

After weeks of heated debate over plans for an Islamic community center near Ground Zero - the site of the 9/11 attacks on New York - it seems Muslim leaders will soon back down, agreeing to move to a new site.

The decision follows a high-profile campaign against the project that included advertisements on New York buses showing images of the burning Twin Towers, an iconic landmark razed when al-Qaida terrorists flew packed passenger planes into them in 2001. The New York Republican party is also said to be planning a hostile television campaign.

healthpellets
08-16-2010, 06:02 PM
or maybe not...

http://www.nydailynews.com/blogs/dailypolitics/2010/08/developing-haaretz-reporting-m.html#ixzz0wnpmE3RJ

vailpass
08-16-2010, 06:19 PM
The whole thing stinks like allah's left hand.

BIG_DADDY
08-16-2010, 07:30 PM
This whole thing would create hate towards Islam. The smoke screen is tolerance and equal rights under the constitution. Does anyone honestly believe that putting a mosque right there will create love and tolerance for Islam? This just gives the libtards one more reason to prance around talk about how tolerant they are when anyone with an ounce of common sense should be able to see that this is all bad. Would anyone think for even 2 seconds that if an American christian extremist went over to the ME and killed thousands of muslims that we should put a church on that same sight in the name of tolerance? Not a friggen chance. The same people prancing around now preaching about tolerance and calling anyone that opposes this hypocrites would be the first ones up in arms if we tried to do that. Which just leaves one question, what are their true motives?

irishjayhawk
08-16-2010, 09:15 PM
This whole thing would create hate towards Islam. The smoke screen is tolerance and equal rights under the constitution. Does anyone honestly believe that putting a mosque right there will create love and tolerance for Islam? This just gives the libtards one more reason to prance around talk about how tolerant they are when anyone with an ounce of common sense should be able to see that this is all bad. Would anyone think for even 2 seconds that if an American christian extremist went over to the ME and killed thousands of muslims that we should put a church on that same sight in the name of tolerance? Not a friggen chance. The same people prancing around now preaching about tolerance and calling anyone that opposes this hypocrites would be the first ones up in arms if we tried to do that. Which just leaves one question, what are their true motives?

I liked this tweet:

RT @rainnwilson: They better not build a church anywhere near where Timothy McVeigh bombed Oklahoma City! Sacrilege.

petegz28
08-16-2010, 09:18 PM
I liked this tweet:

That is just idiotic. McVey was not religously motivated as I understand it.

InChiefsHell
08-16-2010, 09:26 PM
That is just idiotic. McVey was not religously motivated as I understand it.

Exactly. More Libtard bullshit arguments...

Iowanian
08-16-2010, 09:28 PM
irishjaysquaw is an idiot, what do you expect?

healthpellets
08-16-2010, 09:33 PM
That is just idiotic. McVey was not religously motivated as I understand it.

debatable. mcveigh was part of the CI movement, which has a general distrust / dislike of the federal government.

Oucho Cinco
08-16-2010, 09:35 PM
debatable. mcveigh was part of the CI movement, which has a general distrust / dislike of the federal government.

Your delusions are spreading.

healthpellets
08-16-2010, 09:36 PM
Your delusions are spreading.

again, do you trust islam like you trust mcveigh?

Oucho Cinco
08-16-2010, 09:43 PM
again, do you trust islam like you trust mcveigh?

McVeigh was not motivated by his touch of Catholicism when he was a kid.

Islam is not a religion, it's a political organization masquerading as a religion.

GERMANY & THE MUSLIM

This is by far the best explanation of the Muslim terrorist situation I have ever read. His references to past history are accurate and clear. Not long, easy to understand, and well worth the read. The author of this email is said to be Dr. Emanuel Tanya, a well-known and well-respected psychiatrist.

A man, whose family was German aristocracy prior to World War II, owned a number of large industries and estates. When asked how many German people were true Nazis, the answer he gave can guide our attitude toward fanaticism. 'Very few people were true Nazis,' he said, 'but many enjoyed the return of German pride, and many more were too busy to care. I was one of those who just thought the Nazis were a bunch of fools. So, the majority just sat back and let it all happen. Then, before we knew it, they owned us, and we had lost control, and the end of the world had come. My family lost everything. I ended up in a concentration camp and the Allies destroyed my factories.'

We are told again and again by 'experts' and 'talking heads' that Islam is the religion of peace and that the vast majority of Muslims just want to live in peace. Although this unqualified assertion may be true, it is entirely irrelevant. It is meaningless fluff, meant to make us feel better, and meant to somehow diminish the specter of fanatic rampaging across the globe in the name of Islam.

The fact is that the fanatics rule Islam at this moment in history. It is the fanatics who march. It is the fanatics who wage any one of 50 shooting wars worldwide.

It is the fanatics who systematically slaughter Christian or tribal groups throughout Africa and are gradually taking over the entire continent in an Islamic wave. It is the fanatics who bomb, behead, murder, or honor-kill. It is the fanatics who take over mosque after mosque.

It is the fanatics who zealously spread the stoning and hanging of rape victims and homosexuals. It is the fanatics who teach their young to kill and to become suicide bombers.

The hard, quantifiable fact is that the peaceful majority, the 'silent majority,' is cowed and extraneous.

Communist Russia was comprised of Russians who just wanted to live in peace, yet the Russian Communists were responsible for the murder of about 20 million people. The peaceful majority were irrelevant.

China's huge population was peaceful as well, but Chinese Communists managed to kill a staggering 70 million people.

The average Japanese individual prior to World War II was not a warmongering sadist. Yet, Japan murdered and slaughtered its way across South East Asia in an orgy of killing that included the systematic murder of 12 million Chinese civilians; most killed by sword, shovel, and bayonet.

And who can forget Rwanda, which collapsed into butchery. Could it not be said that the majority of Rwandans were 'peace loving'?

History lessons are often incredibly simple and blunt, yet for all our powers of reason, we often miss the most basic and uncomplicated of points:

Peace-loving Muslims have been made irrelevant by their silence.

Peace-loving Muslims will become our enemy if they don't speak up, because like my friend from Germany, they will awaken one day and find that the fanatics own them, and the end of their world will have begun.

Peace-loving Germans, Japanese, Chinese, Russians, Rwandans, Serbs, Afghans, Iraqis, Palestinians, Somalis, Nigerians, Algerians, and many others have died because the peaceful majority did not speak up until it was too late. As for us who watch it all unfold, we must pay attention to the only group that counts--the fanatics who threaten our way of life.

AustinChief
08-16-2010, 10:03 PM
debatable. mcveigh was part of the CI movement, which has a general distrust / dislike of the federal government.

HUH? He had ZERO affiliation with any Christian groups.. he was a lapsed Catholic who was not in the LEAST religious.

I am sure there ARE Christian Terrorists somewhere... but McVeigh was just a loon.

go bowe
08-16-2010, 10:39 PM
The whole thing stinks like allah's left hand.ok, that's just wrong...

but it's so funny i don't give a damn!!! LMAO LMAO LMAO

patteeu
08-16-2010, 11:01 PM
I liked this tweet:

I find it both trite and non analogous.

ForeverChiefs58
08-16-2010, 11:14 PM
Here is a Graphical Representation of IED attacks JUST in Afghanistan. Every blip is a muslim extremist terrorists who all pray to the same God at the same mosques.

You cannot compare.

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Bwana
08-16-2010, 11:22 PM
irishjaysquaw is an idiot, what do you expect?

This

patteeu
08-16-2010, 11:22 PM
debatable. mcveigh was part of the CI movement, which has a general distrust / dislike of the federal government.

McVeigh was most likely exposed to some Christian Identity propaganda and he surely shared some of their political beliefs, but I don't know of any real evidence that he was a full blown CI adherent, do you?

ForeverChiefs58
08-16-2010, 11:25 PM
You don't see any Graphical Representation of IED attacks from christians

DaneMcCloud
08-16-2010, 11:32 PM
You don't see any Graphical Representation of IED attacks from christians

No, just burning at the stake, the Inquisition, the murder of "Witches" and blasphemers.

You know, everyday ordinary stuff.

patteeu
08-16-2010, 11:39 PM
No, just burning at the stake, the Inquisition, the murder of "Witches" and blasphemers.

You know, everyday ordinary stuff.

You forgot to remind us we were stepping into the wayback machine, Mr. Peabody.

http://www.moonmoth.net/paelks/history/peabody.jpg

ForeverChiefs58
08-16-2010, 11:40 PM
No, just burning at the stake, the Inquisition, the murder of "Witches" and blasphemers.

You know, everyday ordinary stuff.

nothing compares to the present day. now. this century. real time. show me a Graphical Representation for christians.
Tens of thousands are being killed today. The killers all believe they are doing it for this allah fellow.

DaneMcCloud
08-16-2010, 11:41 PM
You forgot to remind us we were stepping into the wayback machine, Mr. Peabody.



Yeah, let's just ignore the past because it makes the present seem oh so pleasant.

BIG_DADDY
08-17-2010, 12:14 AM
I liked this tweet:

So instead of addressing the direct comparison I provided because you know you would be majorily opposed to it you chose to post that tripe? This is so typical. I noticed nobody else wanted to address a direct comparison either.

|Zach|
08-17-2010, 12:17 AM
So instead of addressing the direct comparison I provided because you know you would be majorily opposed to it you chose to post that tripe? This is so typical. I noticed nobody else wanted to address a direct comparison either.

I don't really have a problem addressing it. It seems quite simple.

We are better than they are.

The standard they use for their dealings has no bearing on how we do ours. We are better.

DaneMcCloud
08-17-2010, 12:18 AM
nothing compares to the present day. now. this century. real time. show me a Graphical Representation for christians.
Tens of thousands are being killed today. The killers all believe they are doing it for this allah fellow.

How about the Americans killing Muslims in the name of this "God" fellow in Iraq and Afghanistan?

George Bush admitted that he was on a mission from "God", much like Jake and Elwood.

BIG_DADDY
08-17-2010, 12:33 AM
I don't really have a problem addressing it. It seems quite simple.

We are better than they are.

The standard they use for their dealings has no bearing on how we do ours. We are better.

The point was that if the shoe was on the other foot we would never ask because of the pure audacity of such a request. The same people who back this here would find such request tasteless, arrogant and insensitive to say the least if it worked the other way. It has nothing to do with anyone else.

patteeu
08-17-2010, 01:14 AM
Yeah, let's just ignore the past because it makes the present seem oh so pleasant.

Nobody who had anything to do with the actions you mentioned is alive today. They have to do with people who have been gone for generations. Islam-inspired violence, on the other hand, is rampant today and tens of thousands, if not millions, of people who embrace that violence are among us as we speak. That's a pretty huge distinction to have missed. Are you really sure you hollywood types are better than us mere midwesterners? :p

patteeu
08-17-2010, 01:21 AM
I don't really have a problem addressing it. It seems quite simple.

We are better than they are.

The standard they use for their dealings has no bearing on how we do ours. We are better.

That sounds a lot like an expression of cultural superiority. Are you sure you want to demean islamic cultures like that? Just out of curiosity, are we better than the Mexicans too?

patteeu
08-17-2010, 01:23 AM
How about the Americans killing Muslims in the name of this "God" fellow in Iraq and Afghanistan?

George Bush admitted that he was on a mission from "God", much like Jake and Elwood.

I don't think "admitted" is the right word.

Can we take a timeout for a second because I have a quick question. Whose side are you on, again?

DaneMcCloud
08-17-2010, 02:16 AM
I don't think "admitted" is the right word.

Can we take a timeout for a second because I have a quick question. Whose side are you on, again?

Give me a break.

:rolleyes:

I'm sorry if I'm not ready to indict one billion Muslims for the acts of a few hundred well funded TERRORISTS.

Again, do any of you have ANY idea how much real estate is owned by Arabs in the United States?

InChiefsHell
08-17-2010, 06:22 AM
Give me a break.

:rolleyes:

I'm sorry if I'm not ready to indict one billion Muslims for the acts of a few hundred well funded TERRORISTS.

Again, do any of you have ANY idea how much real estate is owned by Arabs in the United States?

WTF does that have to do with the price of tea in China? You are actually comparing Christians to Muslim terrorists, and basically equivocating the two, because you are an atheist and hate Christianity. Not because the comparison is legitimate. This is the height of insanity.

...yet another good reason to avoid the Left Coast like the plague that it is...

patteeu
08-17-2010, 07:16 AM
Give me a break.

:rolleyes:

I'm sorry if I'm not ready to indict one billion Muslims for the acts of a few hundred well funded TERRORISTS.

Again, do any of you have ANY idea how much real estate is owned by Arabs in the United States?

Where did you get the idea that one billion Muslims were being indicted here? That's what we call a strawman. And a huge strawman at that.

Do you have ANY idea where the money for this mosque is coming from? It's certainly not coming from one billion muslims. I hear you were going to provide us some details.

I don't care how much real estate is owned by Arabs in the United States.

And you didn't answer my original question.

ForeverChiefs58
08-17-2010, 07:36 AM
ROFLROFLROFL

He was going to make one phone call and have all the answers. What a freaking donkey.

ChiTown
08-17-2010, 07:43 AM
Appeasement is the name of the game...for both sides.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/international/muslim-leaders-to-abandon-plans-for-ground-zero-community-center-1.308426

Quote:
After weeks of heated debate over plans for an Islamic community center near Ground Zero - the site of the 9/11 attacks on New York - it seems Muslim leaders will soon back down, agreeing to move to a new site.

The decision follows a high-profile campaign against the project that included advertisements on New York buses showing images of the burning Twin Towers, an iconic landmark razed when al-Qaida terrorists flew packed passenger planes into them in 2001. The New York Republican party is also said to be planning a hostile television campaign.

Those weren't passenger planes!!!! They were exact replicas with Martians inside. JFC! When are we going to open our eyes!!!!!!!1111111111!!!!

BucEyedPea
08-17-2010, 11:35 AM
I see pat is still stuck in and pushing the "Us" and "Them" or the "if you're not against them all, then you're not for us either" two-valued logic Manichaeanism of Bush/Cheney.

BucEyedPea
08-17-2010, 11:47 AM
....or to fight terrorism. It's for their natural resources.

<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/R7jAT0pillowbiterBc?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US&amp;rel=0"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/R7jAT0pillowbiterBc?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US&amp;rel=0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

BucEyedPea
08-17-2010, 11:51 AM
Video isn't showing.

LOCOChief
08-17-2010, 11:55 AM
No, just burning at the stake, the Inquisition, the murder of "Witches" and blasphemers.

You know, everyday ordinary stuff.

Yeah because you witnessed all this in the 20th century right. Take a walk into traffic.

BucEyedPea
08-17-2010, 12:04 PM
I seem to recall quite a few folks on the right, some of them religious, calling for nuking the entire ME or saying "turn it into glass." Ayup, just a few years ago and right up to now.

LOCOChief
08-17-2010, 12:18 PM
I seem to recall quite a few folks on the right, some of them religious, calling for nuking the entire ME or saying "turn it into glass." Ayup, just a few years ago and right up to now.



Damb that sounds an awfull lot like me and everyone that I freakin know.

ForeverChiefs58
08-17-2010, 12:19 PM
I seem to recall quite a few folks on the right, some of them religious, calling for nuking the entire ME or saying "turn it into glass." Ayup, just a few years ago and right up to now.

so, what is your point?

Saulbadguy
08-17-2010, 12:22 PM
What do people that dislike Islam so much propose we do? Ethnic cleansing?

LOCOChief
08-17-2010, 12:27 PM
What do people that dislike Islam so much propose we do? Ethnic cleansing?

Maybe just ask that Islam try not to instigate that shit over here, and make sure that they know that sharia law just aint going to work here either. And if they don't like those terms they can GTFO

ForeverChiefs58
08-17-2010, 12:28 PM
buceye with her new shirt. Al Qaeda is Ayup!

http://www.shelleytherepublican.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/05/sheehan-shirt.jpg

mlyonsd
08-17-2010, 12:28 PM
My question is what's our limp waffle in chief's position today?

Saulbadguy
08-17-2010, 12:31 PM
Maybe just ask that Islam try not to instigate that shit over here, and make sure that they know that sharia law just aint going to work here either. And if they don't like those terms they can GTFO

Would it be fair for non-Christians citizens in America ask Christian citizens not "instigate" Christian shit over here, and make sure that Christian law won't work here either?

LOCOChief
08-17-2010, 12:31 PM
apologize and retreat.

LOCOChief
08-17-2010, 12:32 PM
Would it be fair for non-Christians citizens in America ask Christian citizens not "instigate" Christian shit over here, and make sure that Christian law won't work here either?

Personally I don't think so, the way that I see it is if they don't like it then they can get the fuck out also.

Brainiac
08-17-2010, 12:33 PM
What do people that dislike Islam so much propose we do? Ethnic cleansing?
No, I think they are proposing that the Muslims don't thumb their noses at America by building a mosque at Ground Zero.

Is it really that hard to understand? How the f*ck do you go from that to ethnic cleansing?

Saulbadguy
08-17-2010, 12:33 PM
Personally I don't think so, the way that I see it is if they don't like it then they can get the fuck out also.

Well, that seems a tad unfair and unconstitutional.

Brainiac
08-17-2010, 12:35 PM
Would it be fair for non-Christians citizens in America ask Christian citizens not "instigate" Christian shit over here, and make sure that Christian law won't work here either?
You should probably ask that question after the Christians crash a couple of airplanes, kill 3000 people in the name of Christianity, and then ask to build a Christian church at the site of the murders.

ForeverChiefs58
08-17-2010, 12:37 PM
You should probably ask that question after the Christians crash a couple of airplanes, kill 3000 people in the name of Christianity, and then ask to build a Christian church at the site of the murders.

but...but...a long time ago there was a christian that killed also, so its the exact same thing /Dane and co.

LOCOChief
08-17-2010, 12:38 PM
Unless of course all the Christianity has you butt hurt then maybe counseling, or or Oh fuck it get the fuck out!

stevieray
08-17-2010, 01:20 PM
Where did you get the idea that one billion Muslims were being indicted here? That's what we call a strawman. And a huge strawman at that.

Do you have ANY idea where the money for this mosque is coming from? It's certainly not coming from one billion muslims. I hear you were going to provide us some details.

I don't care how much real estate is owned by Arabs in the United States.

And you didn't answer my original question.


BL summed it up pretty well recently.

Saulbadguy
08-17-2010, 01:20 PM
You should probably ask that question after the Christians crash a couple of airplanes, kill 3000 people in the name of Christianity, and then ask to build a Christian church at the site of the murders.

Do you mean a small group of Christians, or "the" Christians? I assume you mean the former.

Naw, I don't think the actions of a small band of lunatics should condemn millions of people, regardless of their religion. It wouldn't be fair.

stevieray
08-17-2010, 02:03 PM
Naw, I don't think the actions of a small band of lunatics should condemn millions of people, regardless of their________. It wouldn't be fair.

yet current culture uses this playbook daily. in schools, in sports...hell even down to getting your gas.

..keep telling yourself that Islam, which calls for viloence, and calls for jihad, is peaceful...

Pitt Gorilla
08-17-2010, 02:40 PM
No, I think they are proposing that the Muslims don't thumb their noses at America by building a mosque at Ground Zero.

Is it really that hard to understand? How the f*ck do you go from that to ethnic cleansing?I think if folks don't want the center built, they should purchase the land and use it for what they want. If the land is privately-owned and zoned in a particular manner, why aren't folks approaching it from a real estate perspective? It would seem that actually purchasing the land would make more sense than crying/whining about what someone else might legally do with their own land.

DaneMcCloud
08-17-2010, 03:10 PM
I think if folks don't want the center built, they should purchase the land and use it for what they want. If the land is privately-owned and zoned in a particular manner, why aren't folks approaching it from a real estate perspective? It would seem that actually purchasing the land would make more sense than crying/whining about what someone else might legally do with their own land.

Exactly.

DaneMcCloud
08-17-2010, 03:12 PM
WTF does that have to do with the price of tea in China? You are actually comparing Christians to Muslim terrorists, and basically equivocating the two, because you are an atheist and hate Christianity. Not because the comparison is legitimate. This is the height of insanity.

...yet another good reason to avoid the Left Coast like the plague that it is...

Oh, just fuck off.

Excuse me for not being an intolerant fuckwad from Nebraska.

LOCOChief
08-17-2010, 03:13 PM
I think if folks don't want the center built, they should purchase the land and use it for what they want. If the land is privately-owned and zoned in a particular manner, why aren't folks approaching it from a real estate perspective? It would seem that actually purchasing the land would make more sense than crying/whining about what someone else might legally do with their own land.

It may sould like "crying and whining" no but build it and see what it soulds like.

Some people just have to push it right? Well go ahead and push but you've got to be ready for what's coming back at you and that is the whole deal right there.

Saulbadguy
08-17-2010, 03:17 PM
yet current culture uses this playbook daily. in schools, in sports...hell even down to getting your gas.

..keep telling yourself that Islam, which calls for viloence, and calls for jihad, is peaceful...

:doh!:

DaneMcCloud
08-17-2010, 03:18 PM
Where did you get the idea that one billion Muslims were being indicted here? That's what we call a strawman. And a huge strawman at that.

Oh really? Then what is it, exactly?

You're pissed because Muslims want to build a mosque that's a few blocks away from Ground Zero, but that's NOT indicting the other one billion Muslims in the world?

Please explain.

Do you have ANY idea where the money for this mosque is coming from? It's certainly not coming from one billion muslims. I hear you were going to provide us some details.

Yeah actually, my good friend that's tied into the NY government has been traveling recently. But I'll do my best to get an answer.

Regardless, are you implying that the mosque is being built with funds from Al-Queda? Because that sure appears to be what you're implying.

I don't care how much real estate is owned by Arabs in the United States.

LMAO

So, you don't care that the Chrysler building, among hundreds of other buildings are owned by Arabs. Your only concern is that a mosque isn't built within two blocks of Ground Zero.

Yeah, right.

:rolleyes:

And you didn't answer my original question.

Dumb question. There IS no side. Unless you can prove, without a doubt, that the new Muslim Community Center is being funded by Islamic Extremists, it's all in the name of Capitalism.

Something you continually preach but apparently only applies in situations you see fit.

|Zach|
08-17-2010, 03:18 PM
:doh!:

SR doesn't know what to do with himself if he isn't playing the Christian victim card.

DaneMcCloud
08-17-2010, 03:19 PM
I see pat is still stuck in and pushing the "Us" and "Them" or the "if you're not against them all, then you're not for us either" two-valued logic Manichaeanism of Bush/Cheney.

Clear as a bell

DaneMcCloud
08-17-2010, 03:20 PM
Personally I don't think so, the way that I see it is if they don't like it then they can get the fuck out also.

Oh, so non-Christians can get the fuck out?

Nice. Intolerance at its finest.

LOCOChief is the perfect user name for you, BTW because you're fucking nuts.

DaneMcCloud
08-17-2010, 03:22 PM
Yeah because you witnessed all this in the 20th century right. Take a walk into traffic.

I didn't witness the Holocaust but I'm pretty sure it happened

Los Pollos Hermanos
08-17-2010, 03:26 PM
I didn't witness the Holocaust but I'm pretty sure it happened

Not according to Mel Gibson.

Wasn't there a big stink a few years ago about the Catholic church putting crosses in front of Auschwitz?

Baby Lee
08-17-2010, 03:27 PM
Saw a pithy take on this somewhere, basically that those of the Muslim faith who could and would actually put a mosque of this nature to good use and outreach probably wouldn't put it right there either.

DaneMcCloud
08-17-2010, 03:27 PM
Not according to Mel Gibson.

ROFL

Wasn't there a big stink a few years ago about the Catholic church putting crosses in front of Auschwitz?

I have no idea. I'd have to look it up.

MOhillbilly
08-17-2010, 03:27 PM
That is just idiotic. McVey was not religously motivated as I understand it.

The govt. tried like hell to tie him into the white nationalist movement because he read The Turner Diaries by William Pierce, leader of the National Alliance.
Just because you are a white power type doesnt mean you are a christian or even christians as you know them.
Most are into some far out shit that makes the norse pagans look sane.

edit-Cosmotheism - look it up.

DaneMcCloud
08-17-2010, 03:30 PM
Saw a pithy take on this somewhere, basically that those of the Muslim faith who could and would actually put a mosque of this nature to good use and outreach probably wouldn't put it right there either.

I can believe that, especially by Muslims that don't live in New York and would prefer this construction not be a rallying cry against Islam.

patteeu
08-17-2010, 03:56 PM
....or to fight terrorism. It's for their natural resources.

It's for resources, for Iran, for China, and for terrorism. In short, it's for the United States.

DaneMcCloud
08-17-2010, 04:00 PM
It's for resources, for Iran, for China, and for terrorism. In short, it's for the United States.

I'm sure you sleep better at night knowing that the Unites States is becoming an empire instead of a republic.

patteeu
08-17-2010, 04:02 PM
Do you mean a small group of Christians, or "the" Christians? I assume you mean the former.

Naw, I don't think the actions of a small band of lunatics should condemn millions of people, regardless of their religion. It wouldn't be fair.

WTF are you talking about? Who is condemning millions of people? This is about one development project and one small piece of real estate. Do you go off the deep end like this every time a porn shop is blocked from setting up shop in a residential area? Millions of people! Oh my!

DaneMcCloud
08-17-2010, 04:03 PM
WTF are you talking about? Who is condemning millions of people? This is about one development project and one small piece of real estate. Do you go off the deep end like this every time a porn shop is blocked from setting up shop in a residential area? Millions of people! Oh my!

So, Porn = Islam.

Check.

patteeu
08-17-2010, 04:08 PM
I think if folks don't want the center built, they should purchase the land and use it for what they want. If the land is privately-owned and zoned in a particular manner, why aren't folks approaching it from a real estate perspective? It would seem that actually purchasing the land would make more sense than crying/whining about what someone else might legally do with their own land.

Do you take the same stand when it comes to all issues? If you want more healthcare, why don't you just pay for it!

I don't see anything wrong with the public making it unmistakably known that they disapprove of this project and applying pressure to stop it.

DaneMcCloud
08-17-2010, 04:13 PM
Do you take the same stand when it comes to all issues? If you want more healthcare, why don't you just pay for it!

I don't see anything wrong with the public making it unmistakably known that they disapprove of this project and applying pressure to stop it.

And once again, you're indicting one billion Muslims for the acts committed by a small number of extremists.

Pitt Gorilla
08-17-2010, 04:15 PM
Do you take the same stand when it comes to all issues? If you want more healthcare, why don't you just pay for it!

I don't see anything wrong with the public making it unmistakably known that they disapprove of this project and applying pressure to stop it.Sure. I wanted healthcare for my family, so I pay (a lot) for it. I also pay for dental, chiropractic, etc.

Do you take the same stand when it comes to all issues?

I also don't see anything wrong with people whining/crying about it; given the landowner's rights, I can't figure out how that is supposed to help. I mean, it's exactly like the porn issue to me. If you don't like the business, don't frequent it.

What I don't understand is why they don't take a more pro-active measure and actually buy the land. I mean, if you want the healthcare, you pay for it, or whatever.

Baby Lee
08-17-2010, 04:17 PM
So, Porn = Islam.

Check.

Dane taking the SATs

CRUMB : BREAD ::
(A) ounce : unit
(B) splinter : wood
(C) water : bucket
(D) twine : rope
(E) cream : butter

Oh, so now Bread is Wood, great!!

patteeu
08-17-2010, 04:24 PM
Oh really? Then what is it, exactly?

You're pissed because Muslims want to build a mosque that's a few blocks away from Ground Zero, but that's NOT indicting the other one billion Muslims in the world?

Please explain.

It's an indictment of the small group of shady characters who are developing this project, the undisclosed money people behind it, and those who applaud it in the face of overwhelming public opposition. Most of the world's billion muslims aren't even aware of this issue so it's not an indictment of them. Nor is it an indictment of those muslims who recognize that this is unnecessarily provocative.

Yeah actually, my good friend that's tied into the NY government has been traveling recently. But I'll do my best to get an answer.

Regardless, are you implying that the mosque is being built with funds from Al-Queda? Because that sure appears to be what you're implying.

I'm implying that there's a strong possibility that it's being funded by people who sympathize with al Qaeda and that IMO it's up to the organizers to aleve my concerns by being more forthcoming with information about the financing of this project.

But let me ask you this. What if the funds were coming from outspoken al Qaeda supporters? Would that change your opinion or would you still be defending their "right" to build a mosque in the shadow of al Qaeda's greatest accomplishment?

LMAO

So, you don't care that the Chrysler building, among hundreds of other buildings are owned by Arabs. Your only concern is that a mosque isn't built within two blocks of Ground Zero.

Yeah, right.

:rolleyes:

That's right.

Dumb question. There IS no side. Unless you can prove, without a doubt, that the new Muslim Community Center is being funded by Islamic Extremists, it's all in the name of Capitalism.

Something you continually preach but apparently only applies in situations you see fit.

Why on earth would you apply a "without a doubt" standard on a judgment like that? Are you saying that if you thought it was highly likely that radical islamists were behind this mosque/cultural center but that you didn't know for sure (some doubt remains), you'd support the project? Surely not, but if so, that's the kind of naiveté that our adversaries will need to defeat us.

So let me revise my question and put it in the form of a hypothetical. If you believed it was more likely than not that this project was being funded by radical islamists, would you oppose it or support it?

DaneMcCloud
08-17-2010, 04:30 PM
Dane taking the SATs

CRUMB : BREAD ::
(A) ounce : unit
(B) splinter : wood
(C) water : bucket
(D) twine : rope
(E) cream : butter

Oh, so now Bread is Wood, great!!

LMAO

MOhillbilly
08-17-2010, 04:32 PM
triple 7 views.

patteeu
08-17-2010, 04:35 PM
Sure. I wanted healthcare for my family, so I pay (a lot) for it. I also pay for dental, chiropractic, etc.

Do you take the same stand when it comes to all issues?

I also don't see anything wrong with people whining/crying about it; given the landowner's rights, I can't figure out how that is supposed to help. I mean, it's exactly like the porn issue to me. If you don't like the business, don't frequent it.

What I don't understand is why they don't take a more pro-active measure and actually buy the land. I mean, if you want the healthcare, you pay for it, or whatever.

So, just to clarify, you oppose wealth transfers for the purpose of providing healthcare to the poor?

DaneMcCloud
08-17-2010, 04:45 PM
It's an indictment of the small group of shady characters who are developing this project, the undisclosed money people behind it, and those who applaud it in the face of overwhelming public opposition. Most of the world's billion muslims aren't even aware of this issue so it's not an indictment of them. Nor is it an indictment of those muslims who recognize that this is unnecessarily provocative.


It doesn't matter if people oppose it. If someone or some group wants to pony up the money to buy out the owner of the proposed site, so be it. But so far, no one has provided enough information for this project to be rejected by the state and local government.

Bad taste isn't protected by the Constitution.

I'm implying that there's a strong possibility that it's being funded by people who sympathize with al Qaeda and that IMO it's up to the organizers to aleve my concerns by being more forthcoming with information about the financing of this project.

Based on what? Talk show radio hosts? What proof do you have, other than "a feeling"?


ut let me ask you this. What if the funds were coming from outspoken al Qaeda supporters? Would that change your opinion or would you still be defending their "right" to build a mosque in the shadow of al Qaeda's greatest accomplishment?

If it were proven that al-Qaeda was in anyway, shape or form, funding this project, it wouldn't matter what you or I think about it because the Federal Government would put a stop to it immediately.


Why on earth would you apply a "without a doubt" standard on a judgment like that? Are you saying that if you thought it was highly likely that radical islamists were behind this mosque/cultural center but that you didn't know for sure (some doubt remains), you'd support the project? Surely not, but if so, that's the kind of naiveté that our adversaries will need to defeat us.

You should have written screenplays for the "X-Files". That's a nice conspiracy theory you have going there.

Again, if the Federal Government found that this project was being funded by terrorist groups or terrorist supporters, they'd shut it down immediately without question.

So let me revise my question and put it in the form of a hypothetical. If you believed it was more likely than not that this project was being funded by radical islamists, would you oppose it or support it?

If Cordoba was funded by Islamic Extremist or Al-Qaeda or any other terrorist entity, I would absolutely be against this construction.

But until proven otherwise, there is no legal precedence against building it.

Pitt Gorilla
08-17-2010, 04:56 PM
So, just to clarify, you oppose wealth transfers for the purpose of providing healthcare to the poor?Yes. I think the system should be reformed, but I'm certainly no fan of the current fix. I'm not sure what that "clarifies" regarding the Center, though.

Again, do you take the same stand when it comes to all issues?

Back on topic, don't you find it a tad perplexing when the strict constructionist folks spend their time whining/crying about what someone else wishes to legally do with their private property? I mean, they're free to bawl all they want, but I'm not sure I understand their measures.

Pitt Gorilla
08-17-2010, 04:58 PM
Oh, and:

http://images.memegenerator.net/haters-gonna-hate-fat/ImageMacro/1759737/Haters-Gonna-Hate.jpg

Pitt Gorilla
08-17-2010, 05:04 PM
Where did you post go, Pat? I clicked to respond and it was gone.

It would be nice, however, if you'd answer a question of mine while I'm answering yours.

patteeu
08-17-2010, 05:04 PM
Yes. I think the system should be reformed, but I'm certainly no fan of the current fix. I'm not sure what that "clarifies" regarding the Center, though.

Again, do you take the same stand when it comes to all issues?

Back on topic, don't you find it a tad perplexing when the strict constructionist folks spend their time whining/crying about what someone else wishes to legally do with their private property? I mean, they're free to bawl all they want, but I'm not sure I understand their measures.

I'm not talking about the current fix, I'm talking about any wealth transfer. Please clarify, are you in favor of the poor fending for themselves wrt healthcare?

patteeu
08-17-2010, 05:05 PM
Where did you post go, Pat? I clicked to respond and it was gone.

It would be nice, however, if you'd answer a question of mine while I'm answering yours.

As soon as you give a clear answer to my question without caveats that effectively make your answers dodges, I'll answer yours.

Pitt Gorilla
08-17-2010, 05:07 PM
I'm not talking about the current fix, I'm talking about any wealth transfer. Please clarify, are you in favor of the poor fending for themselves wrt healthcare?Good God, pat, that's a big question and I'm not sure I can actually consider every possible case to produce such a generalization. I mean, does "any wealth transfer" occur in our current system? I honestly don't know.

Right now, I prefer the current system to the Obama system. Does that help?

Pitt Gorilla
08-17-2010, 05:08 PM
As soon as you give a clear answer to my question without caveats that effectively make your answers dodges, I'll answer yours.ROFL Classic.

BucEyedPea
08-17-2010, 05:10 PM
buceye with her new shirt. Al Qaeda is Ayup!


Well Done on advertising how you've lost the argument.

As if nuking the entire ME, aka genocide, is the way to get AL Qaeda who are in central Asia. Or that genocide is answer for the genocide of Europe. Have you ever noticed that the so-called oppressed turn around and do the same once they have power? Take a look at it....it's happened all through history.

patteeu
08-17-2010, 05:12 PM
It doesn't matter if people oppose it. If someone or some group wants to pony up the money to buy out the owner of the proposed site, so be it. But so far, no one has provided enough information for this project to be rejected by the state and local government.

Bad taste isn't protected by the Constitution.



Based on what? Talk show radio hosts? What proof do you have, other than "a feeling"?




If it were proven that al-Qaeda was in anyway, shape or form, funding this project, it wouldn't matter what you or I think about it because the Federal Government would put a stop to it immediately.




You should have written screenplays for the "X-Files". That's a nice conspiracy theory you have going there.

Again, if the Federal Government found that this project was being funded by terrorist groups or terrorist supporters, they'd shut it down immediately without question.



If Cordoba was funded by Islamic Extremist or Al-Qaeda or any other terrorist entity, I would absolutely be against this construction.

But until proven otherwise, there is no legal precedence against building it.

This is the only part of your post that matters. In a world of perfect knowledge of the facts, we essentially agree.* The only difference between us is that you want to put the burden of proof on the side that's clearly made up of the people targeted on 9/11 (the American people and their representative government) who have no access to the information that would clear this up while I put the burden of proof on the people who are being secretive and who have access to all the answers. I think my choice is far more reasonable than yours.


------------------
* Which, of course, means that you are as willing to "condemn one billion people" as I am.

patteeu
08-17-2010, 05:16 PM
Good God, pat, that's a big question and I'm not sure I can actually consider every possible case to produce such a generalization. I mean, does "any wealth transfer" occur in our current system? I honestly don't know.

Right now, I prefer the current system to the Obama system. Does that help?

Yes, the current system includes wealth transfers (e.g. medicare and medicaid). The purpose of this question was to show that you aren't really consistent about this capitalist principle as you seemed to be claiming to be.

The answer to your question is that I'm not entirely consistent on that principle either because at some point national security concerns trump capitalism in my opinion.

DaneMcCloud
08-17-2010, 05:37 PM
This is the only part of your post that matters. In a world of perfect knowledge of the facts, we essentially agree.* The only difference between us is that you want to put the burden of proof on the side that's clearly made up of the people targeted on 9/11 (the American people and their representative government) who have no access to the information that would clear this up while I put the burden of proof on the people who are being secretive and who have access to all the answers. I think my choice is far more reasonable than yours.


------------------
* Which, of course, means that you are as willing to "condemn one billion people" as I am.

Pat, I would be against Al-Qaeda building a mosque or a nightclub or a housing development, etc., ANYWHERE in the United States.

Again, until it can be proven that the funding for Cordoba is coming from Islamic Extremists or Islamic Terrorist groups, I see absolutely no reason why, legally speaking, this community center can't or shouldn't be constructed.

BucEyedPea
08-17-2010, 05:51 PM
America is still a representative govt? Coulda' fooled me!

DaneMcCloud
08-17-2010, 06:27 PM
America is still a representative govt? Coulda' fooled me!

Yes, absolutely.

Government represents the corporations.

:D

BucEyedPea
08-17-2010, 06:41 PM
I like what Tom DiLorenzo has commented about this today:



First of all, it’s not at “ground zero.” It’s several blocks away at an old Burlington Coat Factory store surrounded by three strip joints according to newspaper articles.

More importantly, the main reason the neoconmen are going apesh_ _ over this is that it is all part of their propaganda campaign to convince Americans that “we” are at war with ALL MUSLIMS, and will be forever. No one, not even crazy old wild-eyed Newt Gingrich, has suggested that the people who want to build this mosque are associated with bin Laden. But like bin Laden, they are Muslims.

This of course is the one idea that defines the Republican Party today: war forevermore (and war profits for the war profiteers who fund both parties). War is the health of the state, and the Republican Party likes it that way. So do the Obammunists. (dirk)

patteeu
08-17-2010, 07:19 PM
I like what Tom DiLorenzo has commented about this today:

Except that most of those so-called neoconmen explicitly and repeatedly say we aren't at war with all of islam. So much for DiLorenzo's con. :shake:

stevieray
08-17-2010, 07:20 PM
SR doesn't know what to do with himself if he isn't playing the Christian victim card.

poor poor zach...just can't help himself.

BucEyedPea
08-17-2010, 07:25 PM
poor poor zach...just can't help himself.

He's obsessive about personal attacks. Just another Flying Monkey.

BucEyedPea
08-17-2010, 07:26 PM
Yes, there are NeoConMen who do want us to think we're at war with Islam. Seen and heard it with my own eyes and ears. Such as "nuke the ME." No con there but verifiable.

ForeverChiefs58
08-17-2010, 07:27 PM
Pat, I would be against Al-Qaeda building a mosque or a nightclub or a housing development, etc., ANYWHERE in the United States.

Again, until it can be proven that the funding for Cordoba is coming from Islamic Extremists or Islamic Terrorist groups, I see absolutely no reason why, legally speaking, this community center can't or shouldn't be constructed.

What if the money was coming from iran? Would that make a difference?

ForeverChiefs58
08-17-2010, 07:28 PM
Yes, there are NeoConMen who do want us to think we're at war with Islam. Seen and heard it with my own eyes and ears. Such as "nuke the ME." No con there but verifiable.

We are not at war with islam. Islam however, is at war with us.

DaneMcCloud
08-17-2010, 08:52 PM
We are not at war with islam. Islam however, is at war with us.

LMAO

No, radical Islamic Extremists are at war with the West. These extremists have attacked all over the world, from Bali to the Philippines to Spain to England.

But these terrorists have obviously done their job because you're scared shitless.

Too bad for you.

LOCOChief
08-17-2010, 09:00 PM
I didn't witness the Holocaust but I'm pretty sure it happened



Yeah and Christians perpetrated the Holocaust, you are a complete dumbass. I am being serious and not "LOCO" when I say Dane Go fuck yourself. You are taking a position on something that you lack the balls to substantiate with reason and truth in an effort to contrive a painful argument. It is antagonistic to build a Mosque at or close to the WTC and I know this you little fuck because you and your ilk have antagonized me and mine with this senseless suggestion. Now type whatever you want pussy I can take it.

AustinChief
08-17-2010, 09:04 PM
LMAO

No, radical Islamic Extremists are at war with the West. These extremists have attacked all over the world, from Bali to the Philippines to Spain to England.

But these terrorists have obviously done their job because you're scared shitless.

Too bad for you.
Problem is.. those radicals have become the face of Islam... just as the Nazis became the face of Germany. It is well past the point where it is "ok" to just be a good Muslim... ANYONE associated with Islam has the duty to start cleaning house... and right now I see very very very little effort to do so.

ForeverChiefs58
08-17-2010, 10:53 PM
LMAO

No, radical Islamic Extremists are at war with the West. These extremists have attacked all over the world, from Bali to the Philippines to Spain to England.

But these terrorists have obviously done their job because you're scared shitless.

Too bad for you.

I ain't scared, just prepared. You have to be aware of what and who you are dealing with and to just say "ok, sure come on in" when we are in the middle of war and they refuse to say WHO is providing the big money and what are their motives?

Ahmadinejad was denied to go to ground zero, maybe he now wants to have something iran looks at as a slap in our face? If they don't have anything to hide they should be transparent about everything including the money.

irishjayhawk
08-18-2010, 12:45 AM
That is just idiotic. McVey was not religously motivated as I understand it.

Exactly. More Libtard bullshit arguments...

irishjaysquaw is an idiot, what do you expect?

I find it both trite and non analogous.



You guys all miss the point. Whenever a Christian steps out of line, he's not a "true" Christian. Whenever a Muslim steps out of line he's most certainly a true Muslim, and therefore representative of Islam.

Timothy McVeigh was a Christian. This is fact. Was it religiously motivated? No. Was September 11th? Well, it's not a definite no, as in the case of McVeigh, but it could be argued that it wasn't. It could be argued on the grounds of politics, the effects of freedom, the fallout of previous Afgan policy and the fact that extremists don't represent the religious.

But you can't have it both ways.

Here's a better summary of the whole situation:
You CAN build a Catholic Church next to a playground but SHOULD you?


HUH? He had ZERO affiliation with any Christian groups.. he was a lapsed Catholic who was not in the LEAST religious.

I am sure there ARE Christian Terrorists somewhere... but McVeigh was just a loon.

Exactly. So what separates him from those 9/11 attackers? How is one a loon and the others completely representative of the religion?

'Hamas' Jenkins
08-18-2010, 12:46 AM
Problem is.. those radicals have become the face of Islam... just as the Nazis became the face of Germany. It is well past the point where it is "ok" to just be a good Muslim... ANYONE associated with Islam has the duty to start cleaning house... and right now I see very very very little effort to do so.

This is foolishly uninformed.

irishjayhawk
08-18-2010, 12:50 AM
Where did you get the idea that one billion Muslims were being indicted here? That's what we call a strawman. And a huge strawman at that.


Funny you mention that. We got the impression by the collective outrage at the tweet that sums up the current controversy. Especially yours:

I find it both trite and non analogous.

It's analogous on the grounds that the Not-True-Scotsman fallacy applies both ways. Either Christian extremists are representative of Christians or they're not. And if they're not, Muslim extremists aren't representative of Islam either.

irishjayhawk
08-18-2010, 12:50 AM
This is foolishly uninformed.

This.


Speaking of, Hamas, you should participate more often. :)

'Hamas' Jenkins
08-18-2010, 01:09 AM
This.


Speaking of, Hamas, you should participate more often. :)

I'd rather not.

This place is okay for an occasional read, but it's a miserable shithole, and it's only slightly more progressive than the Westboro Baptist Church.

patteeu
08-18-2010, 01:10 AM
You guys all miss the point. Whenever a Christian steps out of line, he's not a "true" Christian. Whenever a Muslim steps out of line he's most certainly a true Muslim, and therefore representative of Islam.

Timothy McVeigh was a Christian. This is fact. Was it religiously motivated? No. Was September 11th? Well, it's not a definite no, as in the case of McVeigh, but it could be argued that it wasn't. It could be argued on the grounds of politics, the effects of freedom, the fallout of previous Afgan policy and the fact that extremists don't represent the religious.

But you can't have it both ways.

Here's a better summary of the whole situation:





Exactly. So what separates him from those 9/11 attackers? How is one a loon and the others completely representative of the religion?

No, I think it's pretty clearly you who has missed the point.

First of all, none of the four people you've quoted have said that anyone is "completely representative of [their] religion". Indeed, it's a very small minority of people who make such a sweeping claim about radical islamists who commit acts of terrorism. Try dealing with our actual positions.

Regarding the distinction that you fail to see, Tim McVeigh was not motivated by religious convictions of any kind to commit his act of terrorism. Any religious beliefs he had were INCIDENTAL.

By contrast, the 9/11 hijackers were motivated specifically by their particular brand of islamic beliefs. Their religious beliefs were INTEGRAL.

That's a difference not of just degree but of kind. You don't seem to recognize it as a difference at all. As I said before, they aren't analogous in any meaningful way.

AustinChief
08-18-2010, 01:10 AM
This is foolishly uninformed.

No, no it's not. Care to elaborate on why you think my statement is so misinformed?

DaneMcCloud
08-18-2010, 01:13 AM
Yeah and Christians perpetrated the Holocaust, you are a complete dumbass. I am being serious and not "LOCO" when I say Dane Go fuck yourself. You are taking a position on something that you lack the balls to substantiate with reason and truth in an effort to contrive a painful argument. It is antagonistic to build a Mosque at or close to the WTC and I know this you little fuck because you and your ilk have antagonized me and mine with this senseless suggestion. Now type whatever you want pussy I can take it.

LMAO

Thanks for the input, Captain Caveman.

LMAO

DaneMcCloud
08-18-2010, 01:16 AM
Problem is.. those radicals have become the face of Islam...

Not where I live and certainly not in Manhattan

just as the Nazis became the face of Germany. It is well past the point where it is "ok" to just be a good Muslim... ANYONE associated with Islam has the duty to start cleaning house... and right now I see very very very little effort to do so.

Oh, spare me.

There are a billion Muslims worldwide. Are you telling us that Muslims must suddenly bend to the will of a few American citizens?

I've said it before and I'll say it again: There is more outrage in the middle of the country about this proposed Muslim center, two blocks away from Ground Zero, than anywhere else in the country.

patteeu
08-18-2010, 01:18 AM
Funny you mention that. We got the impression by the collective outrage at the tweet that sums up the current controversy. Especially yours:



It's analogous on the grounds that the Not-True-Scotsman fallacy applies both ways. Either Christian extremists are representative of Christians or they're not. And if they're not, Muslim extremists aren't representative of Islam either.

:facepalm:

This isn't a case of No True Scotsman. I'm not denying that McVeigh may have been some kind of Christian. This is a case of a relatively widespread religious philosophy of violence on the one hand (radical islam) versus a case of secular violence committed by a man who may or may not have attended church at some point in his life on the other.

If we had a violent movement of tens of thousands of Christians who were committing scores of abortion clinic bombings and the like each year and trying to bring down non-Christian governments on a world wide basis, we'd have something similar. McVeigh is a really bad example for your argument. Eric Rudolph would have been a better one, but he was a lone wolf so it still wouldn't have been a good one because of the vast difference of degree.

DaneMcCloud
08-18-2010, 01:19 AM
I ain't scared, just prepared. You have to be aware of what and who you are dealing with and to just say "ok, sure come on in" when we are in the middle of war and they refuse to say WHO is providing the big money and what are their motives?

Ahmadinejad was denied to go to ground zero, maybe he now wants to have something iran looks at as a slap in our face? If they don't have anything to hide they should be transparent about everything including the money.

LMAO

How many Muslims live in your community?

There are hundreds of thousands of Arabs in Los Angeles County and I'm not "prepared". They're hard working, honest business and family men, just like 99.9999999999999999999999999% of all Muslims.

JFC. Go to New York for the weekend and see for yourself.

DaneMcCloud
08-18-2010, 01:22 AM
:facepalm:

This isn't a case of No True Scotsman. I'm not denying that McVeigh may have been some kind of Christian. This is a case of a relatively widespread religious philosophy of violence on the one hand (radical islam) versus a case of secular violence committed by a man who may or may not have attended church at some point in his life on the other.

I could really care less about one's religion.

The Extremist Muslim terrorists who attacked the United States on 9-11-2001 were not indicative of all Muslims, nor where there actions indicative of 99.99% of ALL Muslims.

We're not at war with nor should we be "afraid" of Islam.

As I stated earlier, the terrorist have sure done their job because they've scared the bejezus out of most of you people.

'Hamas' Jenkins
08-18-2010, 01:22 AM
No, no it's not. Care to elaborate on why you think my statement is so misinformed?

Sure.

Radical Islam is only the "face" of Islam for those who choose to frame the GWoT as a holy war. The fact of the matter is that Muslims make up almost 1/6 of the world's population, and if their faces were really that influential, as say the Nazis in Germany were, you'd have World War III-The Crusades Edition on your hands. But you don't.

Hell, the majority of attacks aren't even carried out by zealots--they're done by people who are paid handsomely.

All religions have been perverted so that their followers will perpetrate horrors on others--that's why religion is a blight on humanity.

Singling out Islam is both erroneous and inaccurate. Of course, that's not to say that the imams, mullahs, and other nutjobs who wish to establish a Sharia should be given free reign--they most definitely shouldn't, but they aren't the majority, the plurality, or even anything but a very small percentage of the Islamic population.

Consider this: If .1% of Muslims were willing to take up arms against the US, you'd have 1 million soldiers. Instead, you have a few dozen suicide bombings every month. Of course, the great untold truth behind the success of the surge is also the reason why these bombings continue--they're little more than mercenaries who cloak their actions in religiosity.

AustinChief
08-18-2010, 01:24 AM
Not where I live and certainly not in Manhattan



Oh, spare me.

There are a billion Muslims worldwide. Are you telling us that Muslims must suddenly bend to the will of a few American citizens?

I've said it before and I'll say it again: There is more outrage in the middle of the country about this proposed Muslim center, two blocks away from Ground Zero, than anywhere else in the country.

No, I am saying that if you are a moderate Muslim who ACTUALLY is against terrorists acts against the West... then you have an obligation to stop turning a blind eye and ALLOWING the radical minority to infest your religion. There are a few reform minded Muslims out there... but too many are bordering on complicit.

And for the record, I have zero opinion on the mosque itself... I can see it as poor taste .. maybe... but then again, I am not a big proponent of "hollowed" ground and such... especially 2 blocks away...

DaneMcCloud
08-18-2010, 01:25 AM
Sure.

Radical Islam is only the "face" of Islam for those who choose to frame the GWoT as a holy war. The fact of the matter is that Muslims make up almost 1/6 of the world's population, and if their faces were really that influential, as say the Nazis in Germany were, you'd have World War III-The Crusades Edition on your hands. But you don't.

Hell, the majority of attacks aren't even carried out by zealots--they're done by people who are paid handsomely.

All religions have been perverted so that their followers will perpetrate horrors on others--that's why religion is a blight on humanity.

Singling out Islam is both erroneous and inaccurate. Of course, that's not to say that the imams, mullahs, and other nutjobs who wish to establish a Sharia should be given free reign--they most definitely shouldn't, but they aren't the majority, the plurality, or even anything but a very small percentage of the Islamic population.

Consider this: If .1% of Muslims were willing to take up arms against the US, you'd have 1 million soldiers. Instead, you have a few dozen suicide bombings every month. Of course, the great untold truth behind the success of the surge is also the reason why these bombings continue--they're little more than mercenaries who cloak their actions in religiosity.

Thank you.

Of course, 97% of this forum's readers will dismiss this because you don't want all Muslims dead or locked up.

But thank you, once again.

'Hamas' Jenkins
08-18-2010, 01:25 AM
"Give us your bombers and you can have our baskets".

patteeu
08-18-2010, 01:27 AM
I could really care less about one's religion.

The Extremist Muslim terrorists who attacked the United States on 9-11-2001 were not indicative of all Muslims, nor where there actions indicative of 99.99% of ALL Muslims.

We're not at war with nor should we be "afraid" of Islam.

As I stated earlier, the terrorist have sure done their job because they've scared the bejezus out of most of you people.

Are you talking to me? I haven't ever said we're at war with Islam. I think I've even pointed this out a couple of times in this thread. Are you absolving radical islamists like Osama bin Laden? No? Well I'm not indicting innocent, peaceful muslims either. How about you don't continue to pretend that I am and I won't pretend that you're a pro bono mouthpiece for al Qaeda. Sound fair?

'Hamas' Jenkins
08-18-2010, 01:27 AM
The fact of the matter is that building a mosque two blocks away from Ground Zero is a fucking stupid idea, but nevertheless, you don't support free speech rights unless you support the rights of those you don't agree with.**

**Which is also why most people really don't give a shit about the first amendment.

DaneMcCloud
08-18-2010, 01:29 AM
No, I am saying that if you are a moderate Muslim who ACTUALLY is against terrorists acts against the West... then you have an obligation to stop turning a blind eye and ALLOWING the radical minority to infest your religion. There are a few reform minded Muslims out there... but too many are bordering on complicit.

When was the last time an American born and bred Muslim attacked the United States?

Why is it that you believe that Muslim-American ARE turning a blind eye?

There are millions of Muslims in America. If you believe that even a small number are bordering on complicit, why haven't there been more attacks across the nation?

How difficult is it to blow up a gas station? Or walk into a crowded mall in any city as a suicide bomber? Or walk into a courthouse and open fire? Or kidnap and murder children?

Yet, none of this has happened in the past nine years.

If there was REAL Islamic Extremism happening in America, YOU WOULD KNOW IT.

Those extremists don't care about life or death, which is why suicide bombing happens everyday.

Except in America.

AustinChief
08-18-2010, 01:38 AM
Sure.

Radical Islam is only the "face" of Islam for those who choose to frame the GWoT as a holy war. The fact of the matter is that Muslims make up almost 1/6 of the world's population, and if their faces were really that influential, as say the Nazis in Germany were, you'd have World War III-The Crusades Edition on your hands. But you don't.

Hell, the majority of attacks aren't even carried out by zealots--they're done by people who are paid handsomely.

All religions have been perverted so that their followers will perpetrate horrors on others--that's why religion is a blight on humanity.

Singling out Islam is both erroneous and inaccurate. Of course, that's not to say that the imams, mullahs, and other nutjobs who wish to establish a Sharia should be given free reign--they most definitely shouldn't, but they aren't the majority, the plurality, or even anything but a very small percentage of the Islamic population.

Consider this: If .1% of Muslims were willing to take up arms against the US, you'd have 1 million soldiers. Instead, you have a few dozen suicide bombings every month. Of course, the great untold truth behind the success of the surge is also the reason why these bombings continue--they're little more than mercenaries who cloak their actions in religiosity.

I am guessing we may have different views of what constitutes a radical... I define Radical Islam as anyone who supports Islamic violence and or terrorism.. whether that means a rally on the streets of Gaza where people burn American flags after the towers fall or a call to arms regarding cartoonists who draw Mo. If you honestly don't think that those people have become the "face" of Islam.. I suggest you watch more Al-Jazeera.

I also (now here it probably needs a new term like pseudoradical) lump anyone who supports Sharia law in the radical camp...

And to say that if there were more radicals we would have WWIII, is oversimplification at its finest. It simply isn't true... maybe we would if there were enough suicidal radicals... I never said the radicals were all willing to die for their beliefs.

DaneMcCloud
08-18-2010, 01:40 AM
Are you talking to me? I haven't ever said we're at war with Islam. I think I've even pointed this out a couple of times in this thread. Are you absolving radical islamists like Osama bin Laden? No? Well I'm not indicting innocent, peaceful muslims either. How about you don't continue to pretend that I am and I won't pretend that you're a pro bono mouthpiece for al Qaeda. Sound fair?

Go fuck yourself, Pat.

Sound fair?

JFC.

And no, I wasn't talking to you, I was speaking to the fucking close minded, intolerant assholes that have posted in this thread.

If that applies to you, so be it.

DaneMcCloud
08-18-2010, 01:47 AM
No, I am saying that if you are a moderate Muslim who ACTUALLY is against terrorists acts against the West... then you have an obligation to stop turning a blind eye and ALLOWING the radical minority to infest your religion. There are a few reform minded Muslims out there... but too many are bordering on complicit.



Complicit?

How many attacks have their been on US soil by American-born Muslims?

That's really over the line, Dude.

How many "Christians" have walked into office buildings with guns and killed scores of people? How many "Christians" have burned down houses at Christmas, killing scores of people?

How many "Christians" have suffocated their children, then thrown them into a lake?

Your verbiage is heading down a very slippery slope.

patteeu
08-18-2010, 01:51 AM
When was the last time an American born and bred Muslim attacked the United States?

Why is it that you believe that Muslim-American ARE turning a blind eye?

There are millions of Muslims in America. If you believe that even a small number are bordering on complicit, why haven't there been more attacks across the nation?

How difficult is it to blow up a gas station? Or walk into a crowded mall in any city as a suicide bomber? Or walk into a courthouse and open fire? Or kidnap and murder children?

Yet, none of this has happened in the past nine years.

If there was REAL Islamic Extremism happening in America, YOU WOULD KNOW IT.

Those extremists don't care about life or death, which is why suicide bombing happens everyday.

Except in America.

I could be wrong*, but my answer would be November 5, 2009, less than a year ago.


----------------
* By wrong, I mean there might have been even more recent attacks that I'm failing to recall at the moment. I'm not wrong about the November 5th attack.

AustinChief
08-18-2010, 01:52 AM
When was the last time an American born and bred Muslim attacked the United States?

Why is it that you believe that Muslim-American ARE turning a blind eye?

There are millions of Muslims in America. If you believe that even a small number are bordering on complicit, why haven't there been more attacks across the nation?

How difficult is it to blow up a gas station? Or walk into a crowded mall in any city as a suicide bomber? Or walk into a courthouse and open fire? Or kidnap and murder children?

Yet, none of this has happened in the past nine years.

If there was REAL Islamic Extremism happening in America, YOU WOULD KNOW IT.

Those extremists don't care about life or death, which is why suicide bombing happens everyday.

Except in America.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anwar_al-Awlaki#Later_life.2C_and_alleged_ties_to_terrorism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nidal_Malik_Hasan


(not American but British...) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoe_bomber

...but that isn't really my point.. I never said AMERICAN Muslims.. I was speaking worldwide...

'Hamas' Jenkins
08-18-2010, 01:53 AM
I am guessing we may have different views of what constitutes a radical... I define Radical Islam as anyone who supports Islamic violence and or terrorism.. whether that means a rally on the streets of Gaza where people burn American flags after the towers fall or a call to arms regarding cartoonists who draw Mo. If you honestly don't think that those people have become the "face" of Islam.. I suggest you watch more Al-Jazeera.

I also (now here it probably needs a new term like pseudoradical) lump anyone who supports Sharia law in the radical camp...

And to say that if there were more radicals we would have WWIII, is oversimplification at its finest. It simply isn't true... maybe we would if there were enough suicidal radicals... I never said the radicals were all willing to die for their beliefs.

Those people are the face of Islam like Fred Phelps is the face of Christianity.

If one were so inclined, they would relatively easily go out and find scores of God Hates Fags posters, and all other types of hate speech, and use it to claim that those individuals are the "face of Christianity", but it would be bullshit.

There are plenty of extremist gatherings, whether it be Hezbollah members whacking their kids on the scalp with a razor blade, or 12 year olds from Blue Springs rocking back and forth while Raptor Jesus sings New Age Christian Rock projected onto the White Wall of a mega church.

Neither one is representative of the general populace.



**I'm also calling bullshit on you watching enough Al-Jazeera to know their broadcasting habits.

patteeu
08-18-2010, 01:54 AM
Go **** yourself, Pat.

Sound fair?

JFC.

And no, I wasn't talking to you, I was speaking to the ****ing close minded, intolerant assholes that have posted in this thread.

If that applies to you, so be it.

Don't quote me when you're talking to other people and you'll be able to avoid this confusion in the future.

DaneMcCloud
08-18-2010, 01:54 AM
I could be wrong*, but my answer would be November 5, 2009, less than a year ago.


----------------
* By wrong, I mean there might have been even more recent attacks that I'm failing to recall at the moment. I'm not wrong about the November 5th attack.

So, you're stating that he was part of a terrorist group? Or just that he happened to be a Muslim?

DaneMcCloud
08-18-2010, 01:56 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anwar_al-Awlaki#Later_life.2C_and_alleged_ties_to_terrorism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nidal_Malik_Hasan


(not American but British...) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoe_bomber

...but that isn't really my point.. I never said AMERICAN Muslims.. I was speaking worldwide...

So ONE BILLION MUSLIMS need to police themselves because someone might be a terrorist?

Dude.

AustinChief
08-18-2010, 01:56 AM
Complicit?

How many attacks have their been on US soil by American-born Muslims?

That's really over the line, Dude.

How many "Christians" have walked into office buildings with guns and killed scores of people? How many "Christians" have burned down houses at Christmas, killing scores of people?

How many "Christians" have suffocated their children, then thrown them into a lake?

Your verbiage is heading down a very slippery slope.

If they do it in the NAME of Chrsitianity and they were trained using Church funds... and they had Church "leaders" guiding them towards regious violence... then anyone associated with that church and that church leader (assumingthese views were publicly known) would be complicit.

'Hamas' Jenkins
08-18-2010, 01:56 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anwar_al-Awlaki#Later_life.2C_and_alleged_ties_to_terrorism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nidal_Malik_Hasan


(not American but British...) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoe_bomber

...but that isn't really my point.. I never said AMERICAN Muslims.. I was speaking worldwide...

FWIW, there is an acronym used for supporting evidence in rhetoric. It's called STAR.

Sufficient
Typical
Accurate
Relevant

patteeu
08-18-2010, 01:57 AM
So, you're stating that he was part of a terrorist group? Or just that he happened to be a Muslim?

I'm answering your question. Don't you remember what you asked?

But no, he didn't just happen to be a Muslim. His particular Muslim beliefs, not to be confused with the beliefs of all one billion Muslims in the world, were INTEGRAL to his decision to commit mass murder.

AustinChief
08-18-2010, 02:02 AM
Those people are the face of Islam like Fred Phelps is the face of Christianity.

If one were so inclined, they would relatively easily go out and find scores of God Hates Fags posters, and all other types of hate speech, and use it to claim that those individuals are the "face of Christianity", but it would be bullshit.

There are plenty of extremist gatherings, whether it be Hezbollah members whacking their kids on the scalp with a razor blade, or 12 year olds from Blue Springs rocking back and forth while Raptor Jesus sings New Age Christian Rock projected onto the White Wall of a mega church.

Neither one is representative of the general populace.



**I'm also calling bullshit on you watching enough Al-Jazeera to know their broadcasting habits.

And you can officially fuck off for calling me a liar regarding my viewing habits of Al-Jazeera.

Now, back to your assertion that my argument is akin to saying Phelps is the face of Christianity... if there were 100s of his ilk on the news and on the streets... and each of those 100 could gather support from and rally demostrations of 1000s of people.. then yep.. I would agree.

It's a matter of scale.

You are obviously misinformed on the numbers.

DaneMcCloud
08-18-2010, 02:02 AM
I'm answering your question. Don't you remember what you asked?

But no, he didn't just happen to be a muslim. His muslim beliefs were INTEGRAL to his decision to commit mass murder.

Because he had dual citizenship and his parents were Palestinian from Jordan.

JFC.

I'm talking about a Muslim born in fucking Omaha, Nebraska to American parents.

Are you this dense?

DaneMcCloud
08-18-2010, 02:03 AM
If they do it in the NAME of Chrsitianity and they were trained using Church funds... and they had Church "leaders" guiding them towards regious violence... then anyone associated with that church and that church leader (assumingthese views were publicly known) would be complicit.

So, a Christian that kills isn't a Christian but a Muslim that kills is still a Muslim.

Interesting.

What about the Christians that blow up abortion clinics? Or kill abortion doctors?

AustinChief
08-18-2010, 02:04 AM
FWIW, there is an acronym used for supporting evidence in rhetoric. It's called STAR.

Sufficient
Typical
Accurate
Relevant

As my sentene pointed out... tha was NEVER my argument. Reading comprehension is normally a strong suit for you.

'Hamas' Jenkins
08-18-2010, 02:04 AM
And you can officially fuck off for calling me a liar on watching Al-Jazeera.

Now, back to your assertion that my argument is akin to saying Phelps is the face of Christianity... if there were 100s of his ilk on the news and on the streets... and each of those 100 could gather support from and rally demostrations of 1000s of people.. then yep.. I would agree.

It's a matter of scale.

You are obviously misinformed on the numbers.

I'll stand by it. I guaranfuckingtee that you don't watch Al-Jazeera.

FWIW, Promise Keepers and other organizations have espoused extremely radical rhetoric and they have filled football stadiums. Nevertheless, it would be foolish to say they are representative of Christianity as a whole.

'Hamas' Jenkins
08-18-2010, 02:05 AM
As my sentene pointed out... tha was NEVER my argument. Reading comprehension is normally a strong suit for you.

Then posting it was wholly pointless.

Your equivocation knows no bounds.

DaneMcCloud
08-18-2010, 02:06 AM
Oh and BTW, I saw Obama the Muslim's helicopter over my house today and he dined at a friend's house.

Does that make me Muslim?

AustinChief
08-18-2010, 02:07 AM
So, a Christian that kills isn't a Christian but a Muslim that kills is still a Muslim.

Interesting.

What about the Christians that blow up abortion clinics? Or kill abortion doctors?

Are you even reading my posts? A christian that kills in the NAME of and FUNDED BY and TRAINED BY a christian group.. is a christian and a christian terrorist in my opinion...

I just don't know of many of those out there... Plenty examples of the Muslim FUNDED, TRAINED, GUIDED BY ones... who carry out the acts DUE to religious beliefs.

'Hamas' Jenkins
08-18-2010, 02:10 AM
Are you even reading my posts? A christian that kills in the NAME of and FUNDED BY and TRAINED BY a christian group.. is a christian and a christian terrorist in my opinion...

I just don't know of many of those out there... Plenty examples of the Muslim FUNDED, TRAINED, GUIDED BY ones... who carry out the acts DUE to religious beliefs.

There was one in the very state you live in a little over 15 years ago.

DaneMcCloud
08-18-2010, 02:13 AM
There was one in the very state you live in a little over 15 years ago.

The Davidian Branch wasn't Christian.

:rolleyes:

AustinChief
08-18-2010, 02:19 AM
I'll stand by it. I guaranfuckingtee that you don't watch Al-Jazeera.

FWIW, Promise Keepers and other organizations have espoused extremely radical rhetoric and they have filled football stadiums. Nevertheless, it would be foolish to say they are representative of Christianity as a whole.

Why would you guarantee that? Your arrogance has exceeded itself this time. No way to prove the point so I will simply say... you are a rude and small person who would have to call someone a liar simply to try to "win" an Internet debate. Sad.

Tell you what, if I saw constant news reports of Christian bombings I would be the first in line to line up the Promise Keepers against the wall... I am no fan of Chrsitians either.. but lets be REALISTIC about the truth here.

AustinChief
08-18-2010, 02:21 AM
There was one in the very state you live in a little over 15 years ago.

No, they were loons and probably abusing kids... but they were a TINY group that never bombed anyone...

So far for the last 15 years you have Phelps and Koresh(both nonviolent.. although Koresh had potential)? I can give you 10 or more Islamic Radical violent acts in the last 15 MONTHS.

AustinChief
08-18-2010, 02:22 AM
The Davidian Branch wasn't Christian.

:rolleyes:

No they were. I still don't see where you MISREAD something of mine and assumed I was ever making that ridiculous argument.

DaneMcCloud
08-18-2010, 02:34 AM
No they were. I still don't see where you MISREAD something of mine and assumed I was ever making that ridiculous argument.

Dude

Are you even reading my posts? A christian that kills in the NAME of and FUNDED BY and TRAINED BY a christian group.. is a christian and a christian terrorist in my opinion...


I just don't know of many of those out there... Plenty examples of the Muslim FUNDED, TRAINED, GUIDED BY ones... who carry out the acts DUE to religious beliefs.

So which examples can be found in America? I fully understand that there are Terrorist "Plants" in America and I'm not referring to Americans born to Muslim Extremists that had a child in this country as part of an agenda.

To date, I'm not aware of any terrorist acts by Americans with a long history or genealogy in America. Hopefully, that won't change. But I think it's silly to indict ALL Muslims because of a proportionately small number of extremist terrorists.

And for the record, I don't believe in anything other than the Constitution in this case. Religion is irrelevant.

Oucho Cinco
08-18-2010, 05:56 AM
I'll stand by it. I guaran****ingtee that you don't watch Al-Jazeera.

FWIW, Promise Keepers and other organizations have espoused extremely radical rhetoric and they have filled football stadiums. Nevertheless, it would be foolish to say they are representative of Christianity as a whole.

Have you ever been to a Promise Keepers rally at any one of the stadiums? I went to one, there was nothing radical about it other than the love of God and to be the Christian husband you should be.

I think you are very far off the mark with including PK in any of the radical groups.

InChiefsHell
08-18-2010, 06:11 AM
Oh, just **** off.

Excuse me for not being an intolerant ****wad from Nebraska.

No, you are an intolerant elitist fuckwad from Dumbifornia. So nya nya nya to you...

InChiefsHell
08-18-2010, 06:13 AM
Have you ever been to a Promise Keepers rally at any one of the stadiums? I went to one, there was nothing radical about it other than the love of God and to be the Christian husband you should be.

I think you are very far off the mark with including PK in any of the radical groups.

Yes, PK espouses such radical ideals as men putting Christ first in their lives, loving their wives and children, being accountable and responsible, and trying to be good examples for others around them...those radical dangerous bastards...they are exactly like radical Muslims...

All clear thinking is dying in this country...

blaise
08-18-2010, 08:13 AM
I was in an area where I could get NYC radio last weekend, and some local show was discussing this learning center. I didn't listen to a ton, but I did hear two guys call in and say they were Muslim. Both of them said they didn't like the idea of putting the learning/ community center near ground zero. Both said that they didn't see the point of placing it there since that's the financial district and not that many people actually reside down there. They couldn't see the point of putting it there when people would have to commute to get to it. Secondly, both said they thought it would foster ill will. It's only two people, and I can't say for a fact that they were actually Muslims, or if they were just claiming to be, so take it for what it's worth.

irishjayhawk
08-18-2010, 08:50 AM
:facepalm:

This isn't a case of No True Scotsman. I'm not denying that McVeigh may have been some kind of Christian. This is a case of a relatively widespread religious philosophy of violence on the one hand (radical islam) versus a case of secular violence committed by a man who may or may not have attended church at some point in his life on the other.

Except for the reasonable argument that their attacks had nothing to do with Islam and everything to do with politics. It's the same argument made when discussing the Middle East, where if you removed religion, you'd still have conflict.


If we had a violent movement of tens of thousands of Christians who were committing scores of abortion clinic bombings and the like each year and trying to bring down non-Christian governments on a world wide basis, we'd have something similar. McVeigh is a really bad example for your argument. Eric Rudolph would have been a better one, but he was a lone wolf so it still wouldn't have been a good one because of the vast difference of degree.

McVeigh was never my argument. I just agreed with the sentiment within the tweet. And I still do.

It may not be you who employs the Not True Scotsman, but there are many people on this very board who do. Phelps isn't a "true" Christian to many people on this board. Yet, those attackers are most certainly "true" Muslims to the same people.
That said, John Oliver's was much better and more applicable.

You CAN build a Catholic Church next to a playground; but SHOULD you?

ForeverChiefs58
08-18-2010, 08:55 AM
Dane is such a dipshit asshole. We are at freaking war right now with these fuggers and he is really saying this shit. I have family fighting these mother fuckers right now that you are so quickly dismissing. Tens of thousands of american lives have been killed. Every last one of the people we are at war with believe they are killing for their God mohammed. Its not "just a few nutjobs" either dumbass. Its not comparable to the cathlic church, McVey, christians, Phelps, abortion or any other retarded thing you want to try. You sound like a mouth piece for radicals to me you chicken shit Godless bastard.

We use words like honor, code, loyalty...we use these words as the backbone to a life spent defending something. You use 'em as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom I provide, then questions the manner in which I provide it! I'd rather you just said thank you and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon and stand a post. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you're entitled to!

Los Pollos Hermanos
08-18-2010, 08:58 AM
That's the oddest reference of "A Few Good Men" I've ever seen.

ForeverChiefs58
08-18-2010, 10:20 AM
I can't believe irishjayhawk actually tried to compared the cathlic church to 9-11

InChiefsHell
08-18-2010, 10:23 AM
a bunch of rambling bullshit

Don't you ever get tired of the Catholic Church zingers? It's really pitiful...

irishjayhawk
08-18-2010, 10:33 AM
I can't believe irishjayhawk actually tried to compared the cathlic church to 9-11

You're right. Historically, it's committed atrocities that go far beyond 9-11.

irishjayhawk
08-18-2010, 10:34 AM
Don't you ever get tired of the Catholic Church zingers? It's really pitiful...

No, I don't. They are harmful to society.

InChiefsHell
08-18-2010, 10:38 AM
No, I don't. They are harmful to society.

This is truly a twisted and demented point of view. I feel sorry for you.

Iowanian
08-18-2010, 10:48 AM
No, I don't. They are harmful to society.


You're one twisted sonnabitch.

irishjayhawk
08-18-2010, 10:52 AM
You're one twisted sonnabitch.

This is truly a twisted and demented point of view. I feel sorry for you.

No more demented or twisted than supporting an institution that has killed millions, concealed the raping of kids and protected those perpetrators, actively crusaded against condoms in Africa, has gone on record saying that condoms help spread AIDS, excommunicated a 9yr old girl who had an abortion after being raped (did not excommunicate perpetrator), opposes women within its organizational structure, opposes gay rights, preaches abstinence only which has failed for decades, and on and on.

Iowanian
08-18-2010, 10:54 AM
So you're gay and on medication, right...

No private organization in the world donates more money or provides more to poverty stricken areas, or the sick in places like Africa than Catholic Charities.

irishjayhawk
08-18-2010, 10:56 AM
So you're gay and on medication, right...

No private organization in the world donates more money or provides more to poverty stricken areas, or the sick in places like Africa than Catholic Charities.

Two things:

I believe people would organize regardless of religion.

I believe the bad outweighs the good as far as Catholicism goes.

blaise
08-18-2010, 10:57 AM
Two things:

I believe people would organize regardless of religion.

I believe the bad outweighs the good as far as Catholicism goes.

But you believe Islam is getting a bad rap.

irishjayhawk
08-18-2010, 11:02 AM
But you believe Islam is getting a bad rap.

Let me be clear: I think both are ridiculous cults that present dangers to society at large.

I've gone on records multiple times suggesting that Islam is merely going thru the same cyclical pattern the Christianity did. People have disagreed, obviously.


In fact, I really think this is the time and place to embed (if I could find it) the entire episode of the West Wing called Isaac and Ishmael. As the episode would say, many people have the memory of a Gypsy moth.

blaise
08-18-2010, 11:11 AM
Let me be clear: I think both are ridiculous cults that present dangers to society at large.

I've gone on records multiple times suggesting that Islam is merely going thru the same cyclical pattern the Christianity did. People have disagreed, obviously.


In fact, I really think this is the time and place to embed (if I could find it) the entire episode of the West Wing called Isaac and Ishmael. As the episode would say, many people have the memory of a Gypsy moth.

I don't know why you would think the absence of religion would make the world a less evil or sinister place. Any of the evil acts committed in the name of religion would simply be committed under another name.

vailpass
08-18-2010, 11:16 AM
No, I don't. They are harmful to society.

:D

Kids say the darndest things

irishjayhawk
08-18-2010, 11:22 AM
I don't know why you would think the absence of religion would make the world a less evil or sinister place. Any of the evil acts committed in the name of religion would simply be committed under another name.

That doesn't make them more of an accelerant.

And, in terms of the thread, you make Dane's point. If you remove religion from the equation, you're just denying someone something because they happen to be similar to those responsible.

Iowanian
08-18-2010, 11:24 AM
You're not of sound state of mind.

blaise
08-18-2010, 11:26 AM
That doesn't make them more of an accelerant.

And, in terms of the thread, you make Dane's point. If you remove religion from the equation, you're just denying someone something because they happen to be similar to those responsible.

I'm not interested in denying them anything, so I don't care much about Dane's point. It's just interesting that I thought you've been one to make the point that, "so what if religion helps the poor or feeds the homeless. If religion wasn't there, some other group would fill that need." Yet, you seem to be in denial that the evil you think is created by the church would be also filled by another group. I think you're mostly in denial about that and you have a hard on against Christianity.

irishjayhawk
08-18-2010, 11:29 AM
I'm not interested in denying them anything, so I don't care much about Dane's point. It's just interesting that I thought you've been one to make the point that, "so what if religion helps the poor or feeds the homeless. If religion wasn't there, some other group would fill that need." Yet, you seem to be in denial that the evil you think is created by the church would be also filled by another group. I think you're mostly in denial about that and you have a hard on against Christianity.

I have no qualms with the fact that evil will still survive a post-religion world.

Absolutely no qualms.

As I said, the bad outweighs the good with respect to religion.

blaise
08-18-2010, 11:32 AM
I have no qualms with the fact that evil will still survive a post-religion world.

Absolutely no qualms.

As I said, the bad outweighs the good with respect to religion.

Well then, we disagree about the good and bad aspects of religion.

patteeu
08-18-2010, 11:33 AM
Because he had dual citizenship and his parents were Palestinian from Jordan.

JFC.

I'm talking about a Muslim born in ****ing Omaha, Nebraska to American parents.

Are you this dense?

No, you asked about American-born Muslims who performed attacks on US soil. I gave you one that made a big splash in the news within the past year so now you're moving the goalpost. As soon as I find a Muslim born in Omaha to American parents, you'll insist that what you really wanted was an Omaha-born Muslim with American parents who attended Mississippi State University.

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/12/08/article-0-02BD1523000005DC-953_306x248.jpg

Maybe you should just try to make a straightforward point instead of asking questions that make it seem like you haven't been paying attention.

irishjayhawk
08-18-2010, 11:34 AM
Well then, we disagree about the good and bad aspects of religion.

I will add one thing.

With the elimination of religion, it would mean, by and large, an elimination of the afterlife. Thus, on the whole, I believe violence would go down over the long term.

I could also be very wrong with that prediction. :)

patteeu
08-18-2010, 11:37 AM
FWIW, Promise Keepers and other organizations have espoused extremely radical rhetoric and they have filled football stadiums. Nevertheless, it would be foolish to say they are representative of Christianity as a whole.

:spock: Such as?

patteeu
08-18-2010, 11:53 AM
Except for the reasonable argument that their attacks had nothing to do with Islam and everything to do with politics. It's the same argument made when discussing the Middle East, where if you removed religion, you'd still have conflict.

Secular politics doesn't promise you instant martyrdom and 72 virgins. It's extraordinarily naive of you to believe that religion isn't INTEGRAL to the motivation of the radical islamists who commit these acts.

There may well be conflict in the Middle East if religion was removed, but the fact is that it hasn't been removed. It's at the heart of the matter. That's why we have such things as Osama bin Laden seeking Fatwah's from sympathetic clerics to authorize his atrocities.

McVeigh was never my argument. I just agreed with the sentiment within the tweet. And I still do.

It may not be you who employs the Not True Scotsman, but there are many people on this very board who do. Phelps isn't a "true" Christian to many people on this board. Yet, those attackers are most certainly "true" Muslims to the same people.
That said, John Oliver's was much better and more applicable.

I see you and others accusing many on this board of having it in for all Muslims when it's clear to me that they are only being critical of violent radicals and their sympathizers. There are a few who seem to condemn the entire religion, but they are countered by people like you who use an equally broad brush to condemn critics like myself and many others.

As for the John Oliver quote, it's also inapt. Once again, the pedophilia that has taken place within the Church is not motivated or justified by religion (not even a radical interpretation of the religion) even if it is performed by a few religious leaders. Religion is only INCIDENTAL in those cases.

Swanman
08-18-2010, 12:04 PM
I was in an area where I could get NYC radio last weekend, and some local show was discussing this learning center. I didn't listen to a ton, but I did hear two guys call in and say they were Muslim. Both of them said they didn't like the idea of putting the learning/ community center near ground zero. Both said that they didn't see the point of placing it there since that's the financial district and not that many people actually reside down there. They couldn't see the point of putting it there when people would have to commute to get to it. Secondly, both said they thought it would foster ill will. It's only two people, and I can't say for a fact that they were actually Muslims, or if they were just claiming to be, so take it for what it's worth.

Damn you pertinent facts, damn you to hell! You have no place here.

ForeverChiefs58
08-18-2010, 12:20 PM
You're right. Historically, it's committed atrocities that go far beyond 9-11.


you really are a fucktard. Your head is so far up your own ass. You can't see what is going on around you when you're staring at your own colon.

BucEyedPea
08-18-2010, 12:24 PM
Looks like FC58 has a bad case of Tourette Syndrome. Ayup!

ForeverChiefs58
08-18-2010, 12:27 PM
Why do you say ayup all the time? Is that some kind of a tick?

ForeverChiefs58
08-18-2010, 12:38 PM
just hard to believe after 9-11, during two wars and the brink of a third, we have people making light of what continues to happen around the world with these islamic terrorists. They are either blind or dumb or a mixture of both.

bkkcoh
08-18-2010, 02:57 PM
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'Hamas' Jenkins
08-18-2010, 03:14 PM
Why would you guarantee that? Your arrogance has exceeded itself this time. No way to prove the point so I will simply say... you are a rude and small person who would have to call someone a liar simply to try to "win" an Internet debate. Sad.

Tell you what, if I saw constant news reports of Christian bombings I would be the first in line to line up the Promise Keepers against the wall... I am no fan of Chrsitians either.. but lets be REALISTIC about the truth here.

I'd guarantee it because it didn't happen. But that's the perk of the Internet. You can make up shit like "I know about the habits of Muslims b/c I watch Al Jazeera".

It was a feeble and foolish way to try and gain credibility.

LOCOChief
08-18-2010, 03:33 PM
A man is only as good as his word. Don't worry, I said man.

AustinChief
08-18-2010, 04:51 PM
I'd guarantee it because it didn't happen. But that's the perk of the Internet. You can make up shit like "I know about the habits of Muslims b/c I watch Al Jazeera".

It was a feeble and foolish way to try and gain credibility.

No, the statement I made was that YOU should watch more Al-Jazeera.. or hell ANY international news for that matter... because you obviously have your head too far up your ass to recognize FACTS.

Fact is, I do watch Al-Jazeera... both live feeds and a few select programes... you making the claim that I am lying is ridiculous. You base this on the fact that if I were lying it helps you win an Internet pissing contest? Your assertion unfortunately can't be proven wrong... so it becomes a slander on my character that I can't defend... What a wonderful cowardly act on your part. I would love nothing more than to never see another post from someone like you with such a weak and lowly character.

AustinChief
08-18-2010, 05:11 PM
For those not following along...

Hamas and Dane are attacking my assertion that radicals (a vast MINORITY) have become the face of Islam...

Let's see what a Google news search comes up with... I filtered out the ground zero mosque news and we are left with... (did the -mosque -"new york", etc)

Islamic Terrorists Overtake India As ISI's No 1 Enemy‎
Barclays Capital Offers Islamic Repos in $1 Trillion Market‎
Militant group confirms death of leaders in Lebanon: SITE‎
People shouldn't forget meaning of Ramadan‎
Ramadan: the Islamic tax season‎
US Aid Group Increases Appeal for Pakistan Emergency to $4 Million‎
Terrorist leader of Shi'a Islamic insurgent group arrested in Iraq‎
Islamic insurgents expel Christian aid groups from southern Somalia‎

So.. on the first page... four are about radicals, one is regarding loans, two are about Ramadan and one about a religious aid group...

Please tell me again who is the face of Islam? when almost HALF of the top articles are about radicals....

Try the same search regading Hindu... you MIGHT get a refernce to Kashmir on page two.

Now, I will admit this is oversimplified example of what I am saying.. and maybe only supports my assertion for Western Media... but it does illustrate what I am saying. Trust me, in Africa, the radicals dominate the news there as well.

Oucho Cinco
08-18-2010, 06:03 PM
No, the statement I made was that YOU should watch more Al-Jazeera.. or hell ANY international news for that matter... because you obviously have your head too far up your ass to recognize FACTS.

Fact is, I do watch Al-Jazeera... both live feeds and a few select programes... you making the claim that I am lying is ridiculous. You base this on the fact that if I were lying it helps you win an Internet pissing contest? Your assertion unfortunately can't be proven wrong... so it becomes a slander on my character that I can't defend... What a wonderful cowardly act on your part. I would love nothing more than to never see another post from someone like you with such a weak and lowly character.

I hooked up to the satellite and had two different feeds from Al-Jazeera. One was in English, the other was in some kind of pork latin.

I suspect it is available on most satellite networks you get hooked in to.

I do agree with your belief that the face of Islam is more radical than peaceful.

I saw a video that talked about 3 things you need to know about Islam and the Qur'an. It was very interesting and lends credibility of the political sect called Islam being more motivated to take over all countries than to be a peace loving religion.

I don't remember where I put the link, or where I found the link, but it's in here somewhere. It's a must watch for those that feel they have a grip on Islam. Their second job would be to get an English translation and read exactly what it says.

irishjayhawk
08-18-2010, 06:16 PM
Secular politics doesn't promise you instant martyrdom and 72 virgins. It's extraordinarily naive of you to believe that religion isn't INTEGRAL to the motivation of the radical islamists who commit these acts.

Of course I believe religion is at the heart of both this issue and the Middle East. However, I don't believe the extremists to be representative of Islam itself. Just like I don't think that a Christian who goes psycho (for religious reasons or not) represents Christianity. (Admittedly, it's a lot more convenient to highlight those radicals for the purposes of what the moderates foster.)

George Tiller, for example, was a Christian terrorist. If he had bombed the whole Church, would people be saying we shouldn't build Christian churches near that ground zero?

Obviously, I can't say for sure, but I'm going to hedge my bets and say no, that issue would never arise.


There may well be conflict in the Middle East if religion was removed, but the fact is that it hasn't been removed. It's at the heart of the matter. That's why we have such things as Osama bin Laden seeking Fatwah's from sympathetic clerics to authorize his atrocities.

Undoubtedly. But my rationale for removing religion is predicated entirely on the notion that those committing the acts are not representative of the faith. And if that's granted, there's really zero argument - outside of politeness - against the building of the mosque.


I see you and others accusing many on this board of having it in for all Muslims when it's clear to me that they are only being critical of violent radicals and their sympathizers. There are a few who seem to condemn the entire religion, but they are countered by people like you who use an equally broad brush to condemn critics like myself and many others.

I will continue to paint with a broad brush as long as the other side is as well. Or, for example, when they're painting with a broad brush in the other direction. Like misinterpreting the Koran as stevieray normally does. Or when people have a very selective memory with respect to their own sacred cult.


As for the John Oliver quote, it's also inapt. Once again, the pedophilia that has taken place within the Church is not motivated or justified by religion (not even a radical interpretation of the religion) even if it is performed by a few religious leaders. Religion is only INCIDENTAL in those cases.

Again, if you're going to grant the premise that they are not representative of their respective religions, religion is therefore irrelevant. And if you're not going to grant that premise, well, we're arguing something totally different. (And you would be on the wrong side.)

irishjayhawk
08-18-2010, 06:17 PM
For those not following along...

Hamas and Dane are attacking my assertion that radicals (a vast MINORITY) have become the face of Islam...

Let's see what a Google news search comes up with... I filtered out the ground zero mosque news and we are left with... (did the -mosque -"new york", etc)

Islamic Terrorists Overtake India As ISI's No 1 Enemy‎
Barclays Capital Offers Islamic Repos in $1 Trillion Market‎
Militant group confirms death of leaders in Lebanon: SITE‎
People shouldn't forget meaning of Ramadan‎
Ramadan: the Islamic tax season‎
US Aid Group Increases Appeal for Pakistan Emergency to $4 Million‎
Terrorist leader of Shi'a Islamic insurgent group arrested in Iraq‎
Islamic insurgents expel Christian aid groups from southern Somalia‎

So.. on the first page... four are about radicals, one is regarding loans, two are about Ramadan and one about a religious aid group...

Please tell me again who is the face of Islam? when almost HALF of the top articles are about radicals....

Try the same search regading Hindu... you MIGHT get a refernce to Kashmir on page two.

Now, I will admit this is oversimplified example of what I am saying.. and maybe only supports my assertion for Western Media... but it does illustrate what I am saying. Trust me, in Africa, the radicals dominate the news there as well.

In businesses, are employees more likely to be scolded when things go wrong or praised when things go right?

AustinChief
08-18-2010, 07:21 PM
In businesses, are employees more likely to be scolded when things go wrong or praised when things go right?

Why does that matter? Mine is a comparison... Do the same search on ANY OTHER major religion...

It is a FACT that when people hear about Islam in the news... a large portion deals with radicals and violence... that is not true for other (just as flawed) religions.

Arguing against that FACT is just ignorant.

That was my point that I was yelled at and accused of being a liar for... Sorry guys if you don't WANT it to be a fact.. that doesn't change reality.

Do I need to hire Rain Man to do an official study to prove this to you?

Bill Parcells
08-18-2010, 07:24 PM
Why would you guarantee that? Your arrogance has exceeded itself this time. No way to prove the point so I will simply say... you are a rude and small person who would have to call someone a liar simply to try to "win" an Internet debate. Sad.

Tell you what, if I saw constant news reports of Christian bombings I would be the first in line to line up the Promise Keepers against the wall... I am no fan of Chrsitians either.. but lets be REALISTIC about the truth here.
You gotta love this guy. I know so many megalomaniac admins that would have just banned Hamas

God bless you Kyle!

DaneMcCloud
08-18-2010, 07:28 PM
No, you are an intolerant elitist fuckwad from Dumbifornia. So nya nya nya to you...

What am I intolerant of, other than your massive stupidity?

healthpellets
08-18-2010, 07:30 PM
You gotta love this guy. I know so many megalomaniac admins that would have just banned Hamas

God bless you Kyle!

it's pretty awesome over here. nice and lax.

i've been banned at DU twice in the last two days.

once for pointing out that the constitution doesn't contain the words "health care".

and the other for observing that the world's lacking response to Pakistan's floods when compared to Haiti's earthquake might be because Haiti gave us Wyclef Jean and Pakistan hasn't contributed anything to the world.

DaneMcCloud
08-18-2010, 07:30 PM
Dane is such a dipshit asshole. We are at freaking war right now with these fuggers and he is really saying this shit. I have family fighting these mother fuckers right now that you are so quickly dismissing. Tens of thousands of american lives have been killed. Every last one of the people we are at war with believe they are killing for their God mohammed. Its not "just a few nutjobs" either dumbass. Its not comparable to the cathlic church, McVey, christians, Phelps, abortion or any other retarded thing you want to try. You sound like a mouth piece for radicals to me you chicken shit Godless bastard.


Yeah, we're at war with Islam and all of the Muslims in the world.

:rolleyes:

JFC. Would you please kill yourself?

We use words like honor, code, loyalty...we use these words as the backbone to a life spent defending something. You use 'em as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom I provide, then questions the manner in which I provide it! I'd rather you just said thank you and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon and stand a post. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you're entitled to!

Wow, you are really a fucking idiot. Quoting a movie.

JFC.

BigChiefFan
08-18-2010, 07:44 PM
This isn't about liking a mosque near Ground Zero, this is about freedom of religion and property rights. If this happens, it will set the grounds for fucking over your rights.

healthpellets
08-18-2010, 07:46 PM
This isn't about liking a mosque near Ground Zero, this is about freedom of religion and property rights. If this happens, it will set the grounds for ****ing over your rights.

this has nothing to do with freedom of religion. nothing.

that's a tactic being used by the left to promote and foster "tolerance"

DaneMcCloud
08-18-2010, 07:48 PM
just hard to believe after 9-11, during two wars and the brink of a third, we have people making light of what continues to happen around the world with these islamic terrorists. They are either blind or dumb or a mixture of both.

If you're so worried about it, why haven't you joined the military?

Gotta fight 'em over there so we don't have to fight 'em over here.

BigChiefFan
08-18-2010, 07:51 PM
this has nothing to do with freedom of religion. nothing.

that's a tactic being used by the left to promote and foster "tolerance"I agree, however SOME are using the muslim faith as grounds for why they don't want this to happen, there for, their freedom to practice their religion, where they choose, is coming into the equation.

There's no denying this is becoming a religious issue, which is what my point is.

AustinChief
08-18-2010, 08:16 PM
You gotta love this guy. I know so many megalomaniac admins that would have just banned Hamas

God bless you Kyle!

No, it takes more than a personal affront to get me to ban someone.. it has to be something that endangers the existance of the Planet itself for me to go to those lengths.

DaneMcCloud
08-18-2010, 08:20 PM
No, you asked about American-born Muslims who performed attacks on US soil. I gave you one that made a big splash in the news within the past year so now you're moving the goalpost. As soon as I find a Muslim born in Omaha to American parents, you'll insist that what you really wanted was an Omaha-born Muslim with American parents who attended Mississippi State University.

Maybe you should just try to make a straightforward point instead of asking questions that make it seem like you haven't been paying attention.

You know damn well that the guy that attacked Fort Hood had been indoctrinated by his parents who were born in the Middle East and you know exactly what I meant.

There is NO doubt that Al-Qaeda has operatives around the world that are doing their best to infiltrate America to cause harm.

But until you can prove to us all that the people funding the Cordoba initiative are working with those same groups, it's all baseless speculation.

The ironic part is that if Cordoba is being funded by Al-Qaeda sympathizers, it could have gone completely under the radar by choosing a different spot altogether.

And no one in this forum would have known a damn thing about it.

ForeverChiefs58
08-18-2010, 08:25 PM
Yeah, we're at war with Islam and all of the Muslims in the world.

:rolleyes:

JFC. Would you please kill yourself?

You said the most ignorant thing about there was only a few extremist nutjobs. I simply was pointing out that BOTH wars we are over fighting those same islamist nutjobs with over 100,000 of our american troops risking their lives. Unless, your stupid joke ass is gonna pick up a rifle and defend your homeland then why don't you go kill yourself you traitor sucking donkey?

DaneMcCloud
08-18-2010, 08:26 PM
You said the most ignorant thing about there was only a few extremist nutjobs. I simply was pointing out that BOTH wars we are over fighting those same islamist nutjobs with over 100,000 of our american troops risking their lives. Unless, your stupid joke ass is gonna pick up a rifle and defend your homeland then why don't you go kill yourself you traitor sucking donkey?

Your stupidity is unmatched.

Seriously.

Did a Muslim kid kick your ass or something in high school?

Bill Parcells
08-18-2010, 08:32 PM
You know damn well that the guy that attacked Fort Hood had been indoctrinated by his parents who were born in the Middle East and you know exactly what I meant.

There is NO doubt that Al-Qaeda has operatives around the world that are doing their best to infiltrate America to cause harm.

But until you can prove to us all that the people funding the Cordoba initiative are working with those same groups, it's all baseless speculation.

The ironic part is that if Cordoba is being funded by Al-Qaeda sympathizers, it could have gone completely under the radar by choosing a different spot altogether.

And no one in this forum would have known a damn thing about it.

Dane, innocent Muslims from all over the tri state area (where I live) were celebrating immediately after the 9/11 attacks. I mean they were having street parties. thats why people are getting pissy over this issue where I live.


I am suspicious of A LOT of them. we all should be.

DaneMcCloud
08-18-2010, 08:36 PM
Dane, innocent Muslims from all over the tri state area (where I live) were celebrating immediately after the 9/11 attacks. I mean they were having street parties. thats why people are getting pissy over this issue where I live.


I am suspicious of A LOT of them. we all should be.

I can tell that Los Angeles has large population of Arabs and I saw no such thing, and no such thing was ever reported.

Again, if there is proof that Cordoba is being funded by terrorists or terrorist supporters, it should be scuttled immediately.

I also agree that it's in bad taste to put a mosque just a few blocks from Ground Zero but the Constitution doesn't protect bad taste.

patteeu
08-18-2010, 08:42 PM
Of course I believe religion is at the heart of both this issue and the Middle East. However, I don't believe the extremists to be representative of Islam itself. Just like I don't think that a Christian who goes psycho (for religious reasons or not) represents Christianity. (Admittedly, it's a lot more convenient to highlight those radicals for the purposes of what the moderates foster.)

George Tiller, for example, was a Christian terrorist. If he had bombed the whole Church, would people be saying we shouldn't build Christian churches near that ground zero?

Obviously, I can't say for sure, but I'm going to hedge my bets and say no, that issue would never arise.

You're a thick-headed student, but luckily for you, I'm a patient teacher. We have two different types of potential differences here. We have "type" differences and differences of "degree".

TYPE: Nidal Malik Hasan was a religiously motivated mass murderer. Timothy McVeigh was a mass murderer who was motivated by something other than religion. This is a "type" difference.

DEGREE: Al Qaeda and various other radical islamic movements comprise tens of thousands, if not millions, of adherents who are ready to wage jihad in one form or another against the infidel West. They are responsible for scores of murderous attacks around the world each year (and this is a conservative estimate). Eric Rudolph and George Tiller were both lone wolves, and while there are probably those who sympathize with their actions, these people are few and far between. This is a "degree" difference.

Ground zero has nothing to do with Tiller's target so it was a poor choice on your part, but let me make a more apt analogy by proposing that we build a Christian Church across the street from an abortion clinic. No doubt, there would be howls from the pro-abortion left, but there wouldn't be the same kind of overwhelming opposition as there is for the Ground Zero mosque because the violence associated with the Tillers and the Rudolphs of the world is minute compared to the violence associated with radical islam. Even though they are of the same TYPE, the DEGREE is massively different.

Undoubtedly. But my rationale for removing religion is predicated entirely on the notion that those committing the acts are not representative of the faith. And if that's granted, there's really zero argument - outside of politeness - against the building of the mosque.




I will continue to paint with a broad brush as long as the other side is as well. Or, for example, when they're painting with a broad brush in the other direction. Like misinterpreting the Koran as stevieray normally does. Or when people have a very selective memory with respect to their own sacred cult.



Again, if you're going to grant the premise that they are not representative of their respective religions, religion is therefore irrelevant. And if you're not going to grant that premise, well, we're arguing something totally different. (And you would be on the wrong side.)

So in the end, it's actually you that's guilty of the No True Scotsman fallacy.

No intelligent Muslim with a good faith intention of outreach would want to force this project to fruition in spite of the massive public sentiment against it. The only logical conclusion is that the people behind this mosque are either not intelligent or, more likely, not operating in good faith.

Bill Parcells
08-18-2010, 08:43 PM
I can tell that Los Angeles has large population of Arabs and I saw no such thing, and no such thing was ever reported.

Again, if there is proof that Cordoba is being funded by terrorists or terrorist supporters, it should be scuttled immediately.

I also agree that it's in bad taste to put a mosque just a few blocks from Ground Zero but the Constitution doesn't protect bad taste.

There were reporters covering these street parties in New Jersey in 2001. I'm quite sure it wouldnt be on KABC..LOL..Those douches that flew those plains into the towers had New Jersey Drivers licenses.

We may have to make some adjustments to the constitution for the safety of the American people. these people are taking advantage of our liberties.

Saul Good
08-18-2010, 08:47 PM
There is NO doubt that Al-Qaeda has operatives around the world that are doing their best to infiltrate America to cause harm.

But until you can prove to us all that the people funding the Cordoba initiative are working with those same groups, it's all baseless speculation.

These are maybe the strangest back to back sentences I have ever read. If you have no doubt that this is going on, how would a $100,000,000 compound built a 5-iron away from the location of the largest terrorist attack on American soil in history not rub you the wrong way?

It's like saying, "there's no doubt that my neighbor is planning to rape and kill my daughter, but until I can prove that the GHB, rope, duct tape, and shovel he just loaded into his windowless van parked next to her school's playground were provided by NAMBLA, any suspicion of his motives would be without merit."

Saul Good
08-18-2010, 08:49 PM
I also agree that it's in bad taste to put a mosque just a few blocks from Ground Zero but the Constitution doesn't protect bad taste.

Well you just smote the arguments of everyone who opposes this mosque on Constitutional grounds. Good work.

Saul Good
08-18-2010, 08:52 PM
[B][SIZE=3]Now, back to your assertion that my argument is akin to saying Phelps is the face of Christianity... if there were 100s of his ilk on the news and on the streets... and each of those 100 could gather support from and rally demostrations of 1000s of people.. then yep.. I would agree.

When Fred Phelps, (D) Kansas, protests, his supporters are outnumbered several times over by mostly Christian counter-protesters. Where are all of the Muslims protesting against these radical clerics?

Saul Good
08-18-2010, 08:53 PM
For the record, if Fred Phelps wanted to build a $100,000,000 mega-church 600 feet away from Arlington National Cemetery, I would be against it as well.

ForeverChiefs58
08-18-2010, 08:54 PM
These are maybe the strangest back to back sentences I have ever read. If you have no doubt that this is going on, how would a $100,000,000 compound built a 5-iron away from the location of the largest terrorist attack on American soil in history not rub you the wrong way?

It's like saying, "there's no doubt that my neighbor is planning to rape and kill my daughter, but until I can prove that the GHB, rope, duct tape, and shovel he just loaded into his windowless van parked next to her school's playground were provided by NAMBLA, any suspicion of his motives would be without merit."

:clap:

Oucho Cinco
08-18-2010, 08:55 PM
I agree, however SOME are using the muslim faith as grounds for why they don't want this to happen, there for, their freedom to practice their religion, where they choose, is coming into the equation.

There's no denying this is becoming a religious issue, which is what my point is.

It is becoming a religious issue, but the what is happening isn't about religion, it's about conquest.

DaneMcCloud
08-18-2010, 08:55 PM
These are maybe the strangest back to back sentences I have ever read. If you have no doubt that this is going on, how would a $100,000,000 compound built a 5-iron away from the location of the largest terrorist attack on American soil in history not rub you the wrong way?

It's like saying, "there's no doubt that my neighbor is planning to rape and kill my daughter, but until I can prove that the GHB, rope, duct tape, and shovel he just loaded into his windowless van parked next to her school's playground were provided by NAMBLA, any suspicion of his motives would be without merit."

You're just a tinfoil hat wearing conspiracy theorist

DaneMcCloud
08-18-2010, 08:56 PM
[/b]

:clap:

How old are you? 15? 16?

America, FUCK YEAH!

ForeverChiefs58
08-18-2010, 08:57 PM
For the record, if Fred Phelps wanted to build a $100,000,000 mega-church 600 feet away from Arlington National Cemetery, I would be against it as well.

esp if he was known to smoke cigars with Sanchez and Castro.

Oucho Cinco
08-18-2010, 08:57 PM
For the record, if Fred Phelps wanted to build a $100,000,000 mega-church 600 feet away from Arlington National Cemetery, I would be against it as well.

As would every liberal in the country. Not because it's Fred Phelps but because it would be a "Christian" issue.

ForeverChiefs58
08-18-2010, 08:59 PM
How old are you? 15? 16?

America, FUCK YEAH!

http://pix.motivatedphotos.com/2008/8/28/633555272246380250-CaptainAmericaFuckyeah.jpg

DaneMcCloud
08-18-2010, 08:59 PM
Well you just smote the arguments of everyone who opposes this mosque on Constitutional grounds. Good work.

Please let me know where in the Constitution it states that a mosque can't be built within a few city blocks of Ground Zero.

K, thanks.

Saul Good
08-18-2010, 09:00 PM
You're just a tinfoil hat wearing conspiracy theorist

You've vanquished me with your superior intellect. Kudos.

stevieray
08-18-2010, 09:25 PM
You've vanquished me with your superior intellect. Kudos.

LMAO

KCTitus
08-18-2010, 09:30 PM
Please let me know where in the Constitution it states that a mosque can't be built within a few city blocks of Ground Zero.

K, thanks.

Do we want to go there? Really?

Abortion.
Health Care.
Gay Marriage.

just to name three...

healthpellets
08-18-2010, 09:36 PM
As would every liberal in the country. Not because it's Fred Phelps but because it would be a "Christian" issue.

i make an effort to not personally attack posters and call in to question their intelligence. you, sir, are my daily test.

as is the case with the mosque / community center, no one may like a Phelps church anywhere, but i would support his right to build it on his private property if the law so allowed.

and you should support the same.

DaneMcCloud
08-18-2010, 09:44 PM
Do we want to go there? Really?

Abortion.
Health Care.
Gay Marriage.

just to name three...

Silly.

Unless you're going to somehow make it illegal for Arabs property ownership in the United States, there's absolutely nothing anyone can do to stop the proposed construction.

DaneMcCloud
08-18-2010, 09:47 PM
You've vanquished me with your superior intellect. Kudos.

I'm sorry but you're a fucking nutjob. You may be a decent guy but of that, I have no idea.

What I DO know about you is that you despise Arabs and will conjure up anything possible, whether it links or your opinions, to disparage them and their right to property ownership in the United States.

You wouldn't be able to survive in a place like New York City or Los Angeles because you have an immense amount of fear of Arabs and in both cities, they are absolutely everywhere.

'Hamas' Jenkins
08-18-2010, 10:01 PM
No, the statement I made was that YOU should watch more Al-Jazeera.. or hell ANY international news for that matter... because you obviously have your head too far up your ass to recognize FACTS.

Fact is, I do watch Al-Jazeera... both live feeds and a few select programes... you making the claim that I am lying is ridiculous. You base this on the fact that if I were lying it helps you win an Internet pissing contest? Your assertion unfortunately can't be proven wrong... so it becomes a slander on my character that I can't defend... What a wonderful cowardly act on your part. I would love nothing more than to never see another post from someone like you with such a weak and lowly character.

It's not slander of your character, you butthurt douchebag.

Al Jazeera is not carried by either DirecTV or Dish Network. It is available in four metro areas in the US, one of which (Toledo MSA) has a huge Arab Population. I know this because I lived there.

You live in Austin. The closest Cable company that carries it is in Houston.

Do the math.

'Hamas' Jenkins
08-18-2010, 10:05 PM
***This post reserved for AC's rebuttal that he has an 8' satellite dish that pulls in the Ku band.***

AustinChief
08-18-2010, 10:08 PM
It's not slander of your character, you butthurt douchebag.

Al Jazeera is not carried by either DirecTV or Dish Network. It is available in four metro areas in the US, one of which (Toledo MSA) has a huge Arab Population. I know this because I lived there.

You live in Austin. The closest Cable company that carries it is in Houston.

Do the math.

I watch it online... Same with ITN. Same way I watch FC barcelona matches. I don't even have cable anymore ... Cancelled after realizing I hadn't turned on my tv in 2 months.

'Hamas' Jenkins
08-18-2010, 10:10 PM
Mmmhmmm.

AustinChief
08-18-2010, 10:14 PM
***This post reserved for AC's rebuttal that he has an 8' satellite dish that pulls in the Ku band.***

funny but I actually do (it's in storage) ... It's a cool wire mesh deal that opens like an umbrella... Never did get it to work right... Doubt it would now since it was given to me 18 years ago... And was broken even then. Guy thought I may be able to fix it... Obviously not!

notorious
08-18-2010, 10:15 PM
I don't understand how people can think that they shouldn't be allowed to build a Mosque near ground zero.

Would it be legal for the Mormons to stop a Lutheran Chruch from being built in Salt Lake City?

Also, wouldn't the stopping of the construction of the Mosque be a direct admission that THEY are winning? We gave away some of our freedoms after 9/11, so now we are going to change our laws just to stop this. THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT THEY WANT!

I hate the idea, but if it is within our law, then so be it.

'Hamas' Jenkins
08-18-2010, 10:16 PM
FWIW, It has nothing to do with "winning" internet arguments, because those arguments are unwinnable. They just exist.

Besides, were we to judge an attempt to "win" it would be your specious claim about your Al-Jazeera viewing habits as though it gave you some kind of greater insight.

However, if one was the news junkie that you claim to be, you'd also know that the headlines that you pulled up earlier (in various colored fonts for emphasis, nonetheless) do nothing other than satisfy the basic journalistic axiom of "if it bleeds, it leads".

Of course stories of Muslims stirring up shit are going to pop up first...it "sells" for lack of a better term.

AustinChief
08-18-2010, 10:18 PM
Mmmhmmm.

not my fault you are a luddite. You are welcome to ask my last girlfriend who bitched about me not having cable. Need her number? Anyway... Your attacks aside... It doesn't change the facts presented nor my argument regarding the 'face' of islam today. Unfounded personal attacks easier?

DaneMcCloud
08-18-2010, 10:21 PM
I don't understand how people can think that they shouldn't be allowed to build a Mosque near ground zero.

Would it be legal for the Mormons to stop a Lutheran Chruch from being built in Salt Lake City?

Also, wouldn't the stopping of the construction of the Mosque be a direct admission that THEY are winning? We gave away some of our freedoms after 9/11, so now we are going to change our laws just to stop this. THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT THEY WANT!

I hate the idea, but if it is within our law, then so be it.

You just don't get it.

:D

'Hamas' Jenkins
08-18-2010, 10:22 PM
not my fault you are a luddite. You are welcome to ask my last girlfriend who bitched about me not having cable. Need her number? Anyway... Your attacks aside... It doesn't change the facts presented nor my argument regarding the 'face' of islam today. Unfounded personal attacks easier?

Actually, calling me a luddite is more of a non-sequitur than an ad-hominem.

Yes one, could stream Al-Jazeera. I'm not doubting the existence of Al-Jazeera English or their (limited) streaming capabilities. I'm doubting that you actually consume much of their content, and for good reason--you've displayed an astounding amount of ignorance.

Oh and the "face" of Islam was wholly erroneous. Think about how much complicity was required for Nazi Germany to function. Now extrapolate that out to the Muslim world.

Watch your analogy crumble.

AustinChief
08-18-2010, 10:22 PM
FWIW, It has nothing to do with "winning" internet arguments, because those arguments are unwinnable. They just exist.

Besides, were we to judge an attempt to "win" it would be your specious claim about your Al-Jazeera viewing habits as though it gave you some kind of greater insight.

However, if one was the news junkie that you claim to be, you'd also know that the headlines that you pulled up earlier (in various colored fonts for emphasis, nonetheless) do nothing other than satisfy the basic journalistic axiom of "if it bleeds, it leads".

Of course stories of Muslims stirring up shit are going to pop up first...it "sells" for lack of a better term.
Finally you address the issue. Yes... But the 'bleeding' seems to be prevelont with islam and no other major religion... Hence my statement that moderates need to take a more active role than simply being moderate... Same would be true for any religion where the radicals are a daily hot point for the press.

AustinChief
08-18-2010, 10:26 PM
Actually, calling me a luddite is more of a non-sequitur than an ad-hominem.

Yes one, could stream Al-Jazeera. I'm not doubting the existence of Al-Jazeera English or their (limited) streaming capabilities. I'm doubting that you actually consume much of their content, and for good reason--you've displayed an astounding amount of ignorance.

well this ignorance you claim is based on your flawed world view. Which frankly.. I find to be pollyanna and naive.

DaneMcCloud
08-18-2010, 10:30 PM
not my fault you are a luddite. You are welcome to ask my last girlfriend who bitched about me not having cable. Need her number? Anyway... Your attacks aside... It doesn't change the facts presented nor my argument regarding the 'face' of islam today. Unfounded personal attacks easier?

The "face" of Islam should not be judged by an internet search.

I find myself in a precarious situation in this thread. While I find the building of this proposed mosque in poor taste, there is no legal reason why it shouldn't be built.

Furthermore, I'm more of a deist than an atheist, although I admittedly waffle on the subject. This is after decades of being a Catholic, an altar boy and later studying Hindu, Buddhist and Jewish religions, all the while, working alongside people of all faiths with absolutely no issue.

I don't condemn Christians for their beliefs, nor do I condemn or insult Muslims, Hindi, Buddhist, etc. People should be allowed to practice their faith without persecution.

But the Cordoba project, at least in this forum, has become a misguided witch hunt filled with an enormous amount ridiculous and improperly channeled anger.

'Hamas' Jenkins
08-18-2010, 10:36 PM
well this ignorance you claim is based on your flawed world view. Which frankly.. I find to be pollyanna and naive.

Of course you do, you disagree with it.

I come in contact with Muslims on a daily basis. Not nearly as often as I used to, when I lived in the most densely populated Muslim area of the United States, but still...

Beyond those interactions, I've had students from Africa, the Balkans, and the Middle East itself, all of whom were practicing Muslims. At no point has anyone I've met of the Islamic faith ever espoused any "hatred" of America, rejoiced in killings of American soldiers or civilians. or lauded terrorist attacks.

Let me tell you, as an instructor of classes with a strong discussion and writing component, you often glean a very good insight into your students political and religious beliefs. They wear it on their sleeves.

Your belief is basically a form of fear mongering. More specifically, it's Reefer Madness for Islam.

I'm not doubting the existence of extremist groups, I'm doubting their slice of the pie in the Muslim population writ large as well as their influence.

Again, were they so influential, you couldn't give the bombers $10 bucks a day and have them not blow themselves up.

'Hamas' Jenkins
08-18-2010, 10:37 PM
For what it's worth, I think that the longest continually active terrorist group in the world is both Christian and in the United States.

AustinChief
08-18-2010, 10:45 PM
dane.. I don't disagree with one part of your last post... Minus the 'face' part... But never had an issue withe mosque in question...

hamas... Just because YOU, like me (believe it or not) have been around more Muslims than most.. Doesn't change what is happening in the world. One of my best friends here is a muslim from ethiopia.. An intelligent and wonderful man.. Who happens to agree with me... That islam is beset by radicals who get the news time and taint the entire religion. I have lived in michigan_ spain_ etc... Areas with large muslim populations... The face of islam that I personally have been exposed to has been less offensive than the hatred I have seen from christian groups here in Texas... I am not an ignorant muslim hating redneck... I am a realist. Islam is beset by radicals more so than any other major religion.. And the proper place for that to be addressed is from within.. and not enough is being done... Yet. I hold out tentative hope.

BigChiefFan
08-18-2010, 10:50 PM
Hello? It's NOT a MOSQUE...it's a community center. I can see the politics of more fear-mongering. This should be a non-issue in a free society.

DaneMcCloud
08-18-2010, 11:05 PM
Hello? It's NOT a MOSQUE...it's a community center. I can see the politics of more fear-mongering. This should be a non-issue in a free society.

It's a thirteen story community center that will house a mosque.

No one here cares about the community center because most people in Kansas and Missouri are only part of the white Christian community and could care less about anyone and everyone else.

Oucho Cinco
08-18-2010, 11:06 PM
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2010/06/pat-condell-on-ground-zero-mosque-is-it-possible-to-be-astonished-but-not-surprised.html