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View Full Version : Chiefs Someone review Tyson Jackson and rest of Dline.


googlegoogle
08-21-2010, 09:37 PM
Len and Mitch said the Dline looked good.

Sure-Oz
08-21-2010, 09:38 PM
I saw jackson fall on a guy once

notorious
08-21-2010, 09:41 PM
T Jackson got an assist on the first series, then displayed his lack of speed during a QB scrample around his side.


The rest of the game consisted of him getting pushed into the middle linebacker, but other then that he did great.

Dave Lane
08-21-2010, 09:44 PM
Jackson had the same stat line as Eric Berry minus one tackle.

LaChapelle
08-21-2010, 10:05 PM
and that was on special teams

Pasta Giant Meatball
08-21-2010, 11:07 PM
Couldn't tell watching on a slow ass choppy stream that lasted less than a half :(

TinyEvel
08-21-2010, 11:45 PM
So then, I should file this under "DOOOOMED?"

BryanBusby
08-21-2010, 11:47 PM
Help Wanted: A solid guy around 315-330 that is capable of playing the role of a 3-4 Nose Tackle. Will pay in cash and unlimited cheeseburgers !

Coach
08-22-2010, 12:14 AM
T Jackson got an assist on the first series, then displayed his lack of speed during a QB scrample around his side.


The rest of the game consisted of him getting pushed into the middle linebacker, but other then that he did great.

That, and took a wrong angle. Went towards the QB instead of going lateral with him.

BTAU
08-22-2010, 03:43 AM
That, and took a wrong angle. Went towards the QB instead of going lateral with him.

To be fair, Josh Johnson ran a 4.44 40 at the combine a few years ago. He's not a slow guy. I'm not saying he played well, but it would have been an amazing play if he had caught the QB.:D

chiefzilla1501
08-22-2010, 05:01 AM
Len and Mitch said the Dline looked good.

He looked better than the first game, where it looked like he was getting pushed around. Saw him make a few swim moves and a few plays actually saw him shed a block and move toward the ball carrier. But still a good chunk of plays where he gets eaten up and even when he makes the right move on a play, he still seems to either just miss on the tackle or get to the play a little late.

At least it's progress. But he's not even close to where he needs to be and who knows if any improvements were due to Tampa's o-line.

notorious
08-22-2010, 06:29 AM
That, and took a wrong angle. Went towards the QB instead of going lateral with him.

Ya, I couldn't believe that he actually got a QB pressure, but the proceeded to take a horrific angle and get blown out of the stadium by the the QB.


Even his flashes turn into flash diarrea. The kid just doesn't have it.

tyton75
08-22-2010, 07:03 AM
One thing I seemed to notice a LOT last night was that our DLine seems really slow off the snap.. like the ball is snapped and it takes them a second to realize it was snapped before they start moving forward.

Was trying to figure out of thats a 3-4 defensive line thing.. or just freaking slow!

petegz28
08-22-2010, 07:23 AM
Ya, I couldn't believe that he actually got a QB pressure, but the proceeded to take a horrific angle and get blown out of the stadium by the the QB.


Even his flashes turn into flash diarrea. The kid just doesn't have it.

So you're pissed that a 300 pound guy can't catch a 200 pound guy from behind?

Deberg_1990
08-22-2010, 07:28 AM
Its hard to believe that all the D-Linemen this team has drafted over the past 10 years and they all suck.

notorious
08-22-2010, 07:31 AM
So you're pissed that a 300 pound guy can't catch a 200 pound guy from behind?

No, that he can't figure out an angle to push him to the sideline.


You know, High School fundamentals.

petegz28
08-22-2010, 07:59 AM
No, that he can't figure out an angle to push him to the sideline.


You know, High School fundamentals.

He had an angel. Not the best I agree but the QB was going to gain yards one way or the other. If TJ would have ran sidways the QB would have cut inside. The guy prevented the bootleg which is more than what I can say about our recent defenses.

notorious
08-22-2010, 08:02 AM
He had an angel. Not the best I agree but the QB was going to gain yards one way or the other. If TJ would have ran sidways the QB would have cut inside. The guy prevented the bootleg which is more than what I can say about our recent defenses.

Your opinion vs. mine. I will leave it at that.

milkman
08-22-2010, 08:11 AM
He had an angel. Not the best I agree but the QB was going to gain yards one way or the other. If TJ would have ran sidways the QB would have cut inside. The guy prevented the bootleg which is more than what I can say about our recent defenses.

It wasn't Clarence, was it?

petegz28
08-22-2010, 08:20 AM
It wasn't Clarence, was it?

meh, touche on being the spelling nazi....:D

rambleonthruthefog
08-22-2010, 10:07 AM
he took a shit angle and let the QB get positive yards. no one expects him to catch freeman from behind, except maybe tjax. we do expect basic fundamentals, which he failed to show on that play. there are 10yr olds on my daughters soccer team that pursue better than that. after that play i thought to myself, the drafterbaters are right, this guy sucks.

Coach
08-22-2010, 10:21 AM
To be fair, Josh Johnson ran a 4.44 40 at the combine a few years ago. He's not a slow guy. I'm not saying he played well, but it would have been an amazing play if he had caught the QB.:D

40 time is somewhat irrevelent if you know how to take a proper angle. Jackson WENT towards him, and got his ass toasted.

Have Jackson shadowed him, or pursuit him at the same direction, not towards him, but parallel towards the sidelines, it would not have been a big gain.

Coach
08-22-2010, 10:23 AM
he took a shit angle and let the QB get positive yards. no one expects him to catch freeman from behind, except maybe tjax. we do expect basic fundamentals, which he failed to show on that play. there are 10yr olds on my daughters soccer team that pursue better than that. after that play i thought to myself, the drafterbaters are right, this guy sucks.

It wasn't Josh Freeman. It was Josh Johnson.

chiefzilla1501
08-22-2010, 10:40 AM
One thing I seemed to notice a LOT last night was that our DLine seems really slow off the snap.. like the ball is snapped and it takes them a second to realize it was snapped before they start moving forward.

Was trying to figure out of thats a 3-4 defensive line thing.. or just freaking slow!

I don't know if this is totally correct, but I think a lot of that is a 3-4 thing. In a 4-3, your instinct is to attack the backfield unless the play is designed otherwise. In a 3-4 at 5-technique, you have to read the play first and decide which gap you're going to attack. I think for the D-line, it's a lot more read and react. I don't know if that's a reason--it's something I noticed too.

KCChiefsFan88
08-22-2010, 10:44 AM
Let's start hearing the pathetic apologists on this board start to belch out there usual bullshit in defense of T-Jack...

"A 3-4 DE isn't supposed to make an obvious impact"... "It takes 75 years for a college defensive lineman to fully understand how to play the position in the NFL"... BLAH BLAH BLAH.

Pasta Giant Meatball
08-22-2010, 10:47 AM
Let's start hearing the pathetic apologists on this board start to belch out there usual bullshit in defense of T-Jack...

"A 3-4 DE isn't supposed to make an obvious impact"... "It takes 75 years for a college defensive lineman to fully understand how to play the position in the NFL"... BLAH BLAH BLAH.

99 percent of this board despises him. You act like you are some kind of crusader against the Tyson Jackson movement or something.

KCChiefsFan88
08-22-2010, 10:50 AM
99 percent of this board despises him. You act like you are some kind of crusader against the Tyson Jackson movement or something.

Wrong.

T-Jack's game was at this same shitty level last year when several elements of this board were DEFENDING him.

KCUnited
08-22-2010, 10:52 AM
Wrong.

T-Jack's game was at this same shitty level last year when several elements of this board were DEFENDING him.
It took him 7 games last year to record a multi tackle game, he was credited with 2 last night. Let the man have his moment.

Pasta Giant Meatball
08-22-2010, 10:54 AM
Wrong.

T-Jack's game was at this same shitty level last year when several elements of this board were DEFENDING him.

How dare someone stick up for a player in thier rookie year. The nerve of someone on a Chief board sticking up for a KC player. The problem is, he hasn't appeared to show any growth. He'll never reach the value of his pick, but he's still expected to improve and become a contributer.

Saccopoo
08-22-2010, 10:57 AM
Let's start hearing the pathetic apologists on this board start to belch out there usual bullshit in defense of Glenn Dorsey...

"A 3-4 DE isn't supposed to make an obvious impact"... "It takes 75 years for a college defensive lineman to fully understand how to play the position in the NFL"... BLAH BLAH BLAH.

FYP

Saccopoo
08-22-2010, 10:58 AM
Wrong.

B-Albert's game was at this same shitty level last year when several elements of this board were DEFENDING him.

FYP - again.

tk13
08-22-2010, 11:02 AM
I think he was surprised by how fast Johnson was on that rollout... really I think the whole defense was. He runs way better than most QB's. Not going to hold that one against him too much. 2nd preseason game, there isn't any gameplanning.

rambleonthruthefog
08-22-2010, 11:18 AM
It wasn't Josh Freeman. It was Josh Johnson.

was watching on some choppy internet feed. only thing i could really see was tjax taking a sorry pursuit angle on a QB.

keg in kc
08-22-2010, 11:30 AM
I didn't think it was a good sign when he was the sole starter still playing in the second half. And he still didn't do anything notable against their backups (and the defense was getting run over).

Thought the starting unit as a whole played fairly well, but I'm guessing he still has a ways to go.

Last night, much like last week, was an example of how improved the team is mixed with how much talent they still need to add in 2011. They're talented enough to be competitive this year, I think, but they aren't talented enough to overcome mistakes. I thought they outplayed Tampa Bay in the first half, but the fumble, the sack, and Flowers' screw-up basically handed the Bucs 10 points, and likely cost the Chiefs at least a field goal, and possibly more.

They're going to have to do something about that turnover ratio...

All in all, though, I thought it was an encouraging game.

Crush
08-22-2010, 11:37 AM
The worst draft pick in the history of this team.

Deberg_1990
08-22-2010, 11:44 AM
The worst draft pick in the history of this team.

Little early for that.

Worse than Trezelle Jenkins, Steve Fuller, Ethan Horton, Brian Jozwiak, or Ryan Sims??

keg in kc
08-22-2010, 11:47 AM
Hell, he started a whole season, that already beats Sims.

Crush
08-22-2010, 11:50 AM
Little early for that.

Worse than Trezelle Jenkins, Steve Fuller, Ethan Horton, Brian Jozwiak, or Ryan Sims??


Yes, simply because he was picked No. 3 overall.

Deberg_1990
08-22-2010, 11:56 AM
Yes, simply because he was picked No. 3 overall.

Understood....but at least hes out there starting. I agree that he may never live up to a true #3 pick.

Psyko Tek
08-22-2010, 04:27 PM
Little early for that.

Worse than Trezelle Jenkins, Steve Fuller, Ethan Horton, Brian Jozwiak, or Ryan Sims??

blackledge?

Deberg_1990
08-22-2010, 04:28 PM
blackledge?

Yea, i didnt list him because he made several starts and had a few "moments", but yea, obviously he was bad as well.

tyton75
08-22-2010, 04:30 PM
Whatever the issues on the line.. Gilberry needs to be starting, the minute he came into the game... he was around the ball and making plays

Halfcan
08-22-2010, 06:54 PM
T Jack wont be here next year they should just cut their losses. He really hasnt even flashed any greatness at all.

HORRIBLE PICK!!!!!!

Halfcan
08-22-2010, 06:54 PM
Whatever the issues on the line.. Gilberry needs to be starting, the minute he came into the game... he was around the ball and making plays

:clap: You nailed it.

CrazyPhuD
08-22-2010, 06:59 PM
Yes, simply because he was picked No. 3 overall.

Uhhh sims was a no 6 pick, sorry not a ton of difference there, sims so far is still hands down the worst pick.

BossChief
08-22-2010, 07:44 PM
Uhhh sims was a no 6 pick, sorry not a ton of difference there, sims so far is still hands down the worst pick.

not sure I agree.

Sims was the consensus top player on the board. For a team, like us, in dire need of a defensive tackle, he wasn't a bad pick initially. Its when he became lazy and couldnt stay on the field when he became a bust and it didnt take long. Hold out followed by injury followed by lazy = bust.

Tyson Jackson wasnt projected to go in the top ten in any mock draft till the days leading up to the draft. He wasnt that talented. He should become a good 3-4 end, but he will never be a Suh, Reggie White, Bruce Smith type guy that is worth that high of a pick.

When you reach for a player like that, the pick needs to HIT.

I still contend that the best pick for that draft would have been Brian "toilet brush" Orakpo with Mark Sanchez coming in at a close second...and he is only a close second in my book because of the increased risk involved in taking a player out of college that was so inexperienced.

Orakpo and Hali would have given us a damn good pass rush for a long time and would have made the defenses come along much better than an average 5-tech.

The Bad Guy
08-22-2010, 07:47 PM
Wrong.

T-Jack's game was at this same shitty level last year when several elements of this board were DEFENDING him.

How can a human being be an element?

The Bad Guy
08-22-2010, 07:48 PM
T Jack wont be here next year they should just cut their losses. He really hasnt even flashed any greatness at all.

HORRIBLE PICK!!!!!!

He absolutely was.

You can find any journeyman 3-4 DE and you would get double the production for about 1/10th the cost.

The Bad Guy
08-22-2010, 07:48 PM
What's concerning to me is that Romeo Crenell is a hell of a DL coach and Jackson hasn't shown anything with the coaching he's provided.

It's like Weis with Cassel. If TJ can't perform with this guy, then there's no fucking hope for him.

BossChief
08-22-2010, 07:51 PM
I still have have hope for Tyson Jackson to become a good player, but he will never live up the billing of the #3 spot.

For what we are paying TJ, we could almost have the two best 5-techniques in the NFL

Halfcan
08-22-2010, 08:10 PM
He absolutely was.

You can find any journeyman 3-4 DE and you would get double the production for about 1/10th the cost.

well when you are ranked 19-25 range and the chiefs take him that high-bad things will happen.

He is not a Block eater he is a Cap space eater.

veist
08-23-2010, 01:39 AM
Tyson Jackson wasnt projected to go in the top ten in any mock draft till the days leading up to the draft.

Its kind of fuzzy as its been a while but I believe that the word was the Packers were targeting him as they felt Raji would not be on the board for them. So he might have been a top10 pick, which speaks mostly to how bad the draft class was for 3-4 ends last year. Not that any of that makes it a good pick.

rad
08-23-2010, 06:29 AM
How did Dorsey look?

the Talking Can
08-23-2010, 07:00 AM
I still have have hope for Tyson Jackson to become a good player, but he will never live up the billing of the #3 spot.

For what we are paying TJ, we could almost have the two best 5-techniques in the NFL

i'd be thrilled if he just became 'solid'

FAX
08-23-2010, 07:29 AM
How can a human being be an element?

Well, Milla was the 5th Element, so I guess you have to throw your head back and shoot light out of your larynx.

FAX

wasi
08-23-2010, 10:37 AM
Sims was the consensus top player on the board. For a team, like us, in dire need of a defensive tackle, he wasn't a bad pick initially. Its when he became lazy and couldnt stay on the field when he became a bust and it didnt take long. Hold out followed by injury followed by lazy = bust.


Sims was not the consensus top player. Henderson and Haynesworth were considered very close. The reason the Chiefs chose Sims was because of John Butler, HC at NC. He was aslo close friends with Vermeil and Carl and personally recommended Sims.

MOhillbilly
08-23-2010, 10:54 AM
Why arent you guys numb to the jackson pick/play yet?

the Talking Can
08-23-2010, 11:07 AM
Why arent you guys numb to the jackson pick/play yet?

time heals all wounds...except when you're a chiefs fan and the wounds are on top of other wounds etc into infinity...

DaneMcCloud
08-23-2010, 11:18 AM
Little early for that.

Worse than Trezelle Jenkins, Steve Fuller, Ethan Horton, Brian Jozwiak, or Ryan Sims??

JFC, we've already gone over this: YES

He was #3 overall in a deep draft and was paid $28 million dollars before he even stepped on the field. He's set the franchise back at least two years, if not more.

FUCK.

Great Expectations
08-23-2010, 11:32 AM
Two year set back for a DE??? JFC, he isn't good, but a two year set back for a DE in a 3-4 is a little extreme. Does that make Jamal Charles a 2 year step forward?

IMO our big step back is Cassel.

DaneMcCloud
08-23-2010, 11:55 AM
Two year set back for a DE??? JFC, he isn't good, but a two year set back for a DE in a 3-4 is a little extreme. Does that make Jamal Charles a 2 year step forward?

IMO our big step back is Cassel.

Um, you clearly don't get it.

If the Chiefs want to compete, they cannot blow the #3 overall pick.

Hence, another 4-12 or 5-11 season on the horizon.

2009 was quite possibly the worst year in franchise history in terms of acquiring personnel. Free agency was grim and the draft, outside of a kicker, was atrocious.

You can't win a championship by blowing off an entire year, especially one in which you pick Top 3 in every round.

IF Tyson Jackson was Richard Seymour part two, this defense would look much differently.

BossChief
08-23-2010, 12:19 PM
Two year set back for a DE??? JFC, he isn't good, but a two year set back for a DE in a 3-4 is a little extreme. Does that make Jamal Charles a 2 year step forward?

IMO our big step back is Cassel.

vacuum

Great Expectations
08-23-2010, 01:08 PM
You can blow the #3 pick and still compete if you hit on a couple of other ones and do a decent job in free agency. It is just much easier to hit on a top 5 pick than a 4th round one.

For instance if Cassel played up to his contract the Chiefs would be more than competing. The top teams in the league have all missed on some of their first rounders.

DaneMcCloud
08-23-2010, 01:16 PM
You can blow the #3 pick and still compete if you hit on a couple of other ones and do a decent job in free agency. It is just much easier to hit on a top 5 pick than a 4th round one.

This is bullshit.

First off, you're speaking in hypotheticals. The 2009 Chiefs draft was in reality, a pile of steaming dogshit. They grabbed ONE player that made an impact, the last player in the draft. A player that wasn't even necessary because Connor Barth showed as much promise as Succop and Succop had never kicked in the NFL.

For instance if Cassel played up to his contract the Chiefs would be more than competing.

Big fucking IF. If the Chiefs had selected Rey Mauluga, the defense would be much further along. We can play the "IF" game all day. It won't change the past.

The top teams in the league have all missed on some of their first rounders.

Really? Name the misses by current "top teams" like Pittsburgh, the NY Giants, the Patriots, San Diego, Green Bay, etc.

None of those teams were picking in the Top Five in consecutive years, so your statement is even less valid.

DeezNutz
08-23-2010, 01:58 PM
This is bullshit.

First off, you're speaking in hypotheticals. The 2009 Chiefs draft was in reality, a pile of steaming dogshit. They grabbed ONE player that made an impact, the last player in the draft. A player that wasn't even necessary because Connor Barth showed as much promise as Succop and Succop had never kicked in the NFL.

I don't think it's bullshit, necessarily.

If Cassel was a kick ass, franchise QB, this would go a long way toward covering the Tyson Jackson wart. Yeah, it would still be tragic to fuck up a very important pick, but we could overcome it.

Naturally, you're right because this is all make believe, and this is unfortunate.

Great Expectations
08-23-2010, 02:07 PM
I don't think it's bullshit, necessarily.

If Cassel was a kick ass, franchise QB, this would go a long way toward covering the Tyson Jackson wart. Yeah, it would still be tragic to **** up a very important pick, but we could overcome it.



This is the point I was trying to make, and I agree with Dane that the 2009 draft was horrible.

Great Expectations
08-23-2010, 02:23 PM
This is bullshit.

First off, you're speaking in hypotheticals.


Really? Name the misses by current "top teams" like Pittsburgh, the NY Giants, the Patriots, San Diego, Green Bay, etc.

None of those teams were picking in the Top Five in consecutive years, so your statement is even less valid.

Of course I'm speaking in hypotheticals, that is what everyone does when they talk about changing the past picks/signings.

Larry English isn't starting for the Chargers (infact Cason is the only starter they have from their #1 picks from '06-'09)

Evander Hood isn't tearing it up for the Steelers (1st rounder in '09 isn't starting how will they survive?) and how about Limas Sweed? Justin Harrel - Packers

DaneMcCloud
08-23-2010, 02:29 PM
Larry English isn't starting for the Chargers (infact Cason is the only starter they have from their #1 picks from '06-'09)

Evander Hood isn't tearing it up for the Steelers (1st rounder in '09 isn't starting how will they survive?) and how about Limas Sweed? Justin Harrel - Packers

Once again, more silly comparisons.

Neither the Chargers, Packers or Steelers are coming off of 4-12 and 2-14 seasons. Their respective rosters are loaded with talent, not talent depleted.

The Chiefs absolutely need massive production from their 2009 draft, especially from the #3 overall pick. To date, they've gotten extremely minimal production and no signs of that changing.

As far as Ziggy Hood's concerned, I think he'll be a much better 5-tech than TyJack. If you believe Peter King's camp reports, he's been tearing it up and they'll have a difficult time keeping him off the field this upcoming season.

Chocolate Hog
08-23-2010, 02:32 PM
You can blow the third overall pick and be successful? Who is this dumbass?

BossChief
08-23-2010, 02:37 PM
Its kind of fuzzy as its been a while but I believe that the word was the Packers were targeting him as they felt Raji would not be on the board for them. So he might have been a top10 pick, which speaks mostly to how bad the draft class was for 3-4 ends last year. Not that any of that makes it a good pick.there were reports of all the teams picking after us taking Tyson if he were available AFTER the draft. Nobody thought he was a logical pick at #3 (or anywhere in the top ten) overall BEFORE the draft.

Sims was not the consensus top player. Henderson and Haynesworth were considered very close. The reason the Chiefs chose Sims was because of John Butler, HC at NC. He was aslo close friends with Vermeil and Carl and personally recommended Sims.
Sims wasn't a surprise when we took him is what Im saying...Tyson was. Couple that with the fact that Tyson was #3 overall and Sims was #6 and you have quite a bit more expectations for the #3 pick...especially when a franchise quarterback, true #1 receiver, a great nose prospect and franchise pass rusher were readily available at the pick.

Sims had three sacks, a pick, a forced fumble and a recovered fumble to go along with 35 tackles in his second year...right now, if Tyson Jackson hit that stat line for next year even I would be surprised.

Great Expectations
08-23-2010, 02:53 PM
Once again, more silly comparisons.

Neither the Chargers, Packers or Steelers are coming off of 4-12 and 2-14 seasons. Their respective rosters are loaded with talent, not talent depleted.



You are right.

You asked a question and cited specific teams. I took those teams and listed some 1st round misses over the last 1-4 years. I was silly to pick those teams (that you requested) to show 1st round draft misses.

:shake:

Swanman
08-23-2010, 03:01 PM
In theory, you can miss on the #3 pick and still survive, although it never helps to sink gobs of money into a guy that doesn't produce. However, what makes it worse for the Chiefs is that they pissed away LOTS of picks in the first three rounds, and lots of them were on the D-Line (TJack, Sims, Tank, Turk, Siavii, arguably Dorsey). When you miss on half or more of your first round picks, then that #3 pick takes on a shitload more importance and urgency. Thank God and all that is holy that the Berry pick is so far, so good.

DaneMcCloud
08-23-2010, 03:32 PM
You are right.

You asked a question and cited specific teams. I took those teams and listed some 1st round misses over the last 1-4 years. I was silly to pick those teams (that you requested) to show 1st round draft misses.

:shake:

So, you're proclaiming that Larry English and Ziggy Hood are misses?

Wut.

keg in kc
08-23-2010, 03:39 PM
As I recall, the Chargers elevation came on the heels of several top 5 picks. LT in '01, Jammer (who I'd call a bust) in '02 and Rivers (for Manning at #1) in '04.

The Packers took AJ Hawk at 5 in '06 (after a 4-12 season). They've managed to turn out okay despite that poor decision. Point being, it would obviously help if Jackson turned into something, but the Chiefs can survive it, and survive the way the '09 draft is turning out, but they can't have any more speed bump offseasons like that. It doesn't have to be the end of the world, and '10 is looking like a good start so far.

The_Doctor10
08-23-2010, 03:51 PM
Its hard to believe that all the D-Linemen this team has drafted over the past 10 years and they all suck.

That's not true; Jared Allen is a beast.

The_Doctor10
08-23-2010, 03:59 PM
As I recall, the Chargers elevation came on the heels of several top 5 picks. LT in '01, Jammer (who I'd call a bust) in '02 and Rivers (for Manning at #1) in '04.

The Packers took AJ Hawk at 5 in '06 (after a 4-12 season). They've managed to turn out okay despite that poor decision. Point being, it would obviously help if Jackson turned into something, but the Chiefs can survive it, and survive the way the '09 draft is turning out, but they can't have any more speed bump offseasons like that. It doesn't have to be the end of the world, and '10 is looking like a good start so far.

What's your point with San Diego? They got the best RB of the past decade and drafted a franchise QB with their top 5 picks. Add to that they also grabbed a second franchise QB three years earlier.

That seems a far cry from Chiefs' last few top 5 picks, Eric Berry, Tyson Jackson and Glenn Dorsey, only one of whom has a real chance to be an impact player at this stage. We can argue maybe Dorsey would've been better served in the 4-3 as a DT, but lord knows that's a stupid discussion at this point.

keg in kc
08-23-2010, 04:15 PM
What's your point with San Diego? They got the best RB of the past decade and drafted a franchise QB with their top 5 picks. Add to that they also grabbed a second franchise QB three years earlier.

That seems a far cry from Chiefs' last few top 5 picks, Eric Berry, Tyson Jackson and Glenn Dorsey, only one of whom has a real chance to be an impact player at this stage. We can argue maybe Dorsey would've been better served in the 4-3 as a DT, but lord knows that's a stupid discussion at this point.My only point with San Diego was that they didn't build their team without top 5 picks. Sorry if I didn't make that clear enough.

The only argument of any kind I'm making is that Jackson's pick last year, should he not develop into anything more than he's shown so far, doesn't have to doom the franchise into oblivion.

DaneMcCloud
08-23-2010, 04:32 PM
The only argument of any kind I'm making is that Jackson's pick last year, should he not develop into anything more than he's shown so far, doesn't have to doom the franchise into oblivion.

Obvlivion? No.

But it does set the franchise back at least two years, which was my original point.

If Tyson Jackson was Richard Seymour Part Two, then teams would be double teaming him consistently, which would give the linebackers and Dorsey a much better chance to limit yardage on the ground and through the air.

In absence of those double teams, most teams can run and throw at will against the Chiefs defense.

CrazyHorse
08-23-2010, 05:31 PM
Obvlivion? No.

But it does set the franchise back at least two years, which was my original point.

If Tyson Jackson was Richard Seymour Part Two, then teams would be double teaming him consistently, which would give the linebackers and Dorsey a much better chance to limit yardage on the ground and through the air.

In absence of those double teams, most teams can run and throw at will against the Chiefs defense.

Seymour made 0 impact his 1st year.

DaneMcCloud
08-23-2010, 05:34 PM
Seymour made 0 impact his 1st year.

44 tackles and 3 sacks in 10 starts (13 games) is not what I'd call zero.

DeezNutz
08-23-2010, 05:38 PM
The problem isn't that Jackson isn't Seymour; everyone knew this long before the kid was drafted.

The problem is that Pioli stubbornly and/or foolishly selected him anyway.

Why two years, though, Dane? As opposed to one or even three? Seems like a random (albeit reasonable) number.

CrazyHorse
08-23-2010, 05:46 PM
44 tackles and 3 sacks in 10 starts (13 games) is not what I'd call zero.

Yeah, thats pretty good. I guess I didnt notice as much because he was on a defense full of stars. We dont have that problem.

CrazyHorse
08-23-2010, 05:48 PM
The problem isn't that Jackson isn't Seymour; everyone knew this long before the kid was drafted.

The problem is that Pioli stubbornly and/or foolishly selected him anyway.

Why two years, though, Dane? As opposed to one or even three? Seems like a random (albeit reasonable) number.

I think its fairly common for DL to take 3 years or so to develop. I would say that more often than not. That dont mean TJ will. But it could happen and it wouldnt be unusual if it did.

CrazyHorse
08-23-2010, 05:52 PM
As for the DL overall in Tampa, I thought they did a nice job. They were a factor. Also unusual.

DaneMcCloud
08-23-2010, 05:53 PM
The problem isn't that Jackson isn't Seymour; everyone knew this long before the kid was drafted.

The problem is that Pioli stubbornly and/or foolishly selected him anyway.

Why two years, though, Dane? As opposed to one or even three? Seems like a random (albeit reasonable) number.

Because I figure by the end of year two, the Chiefs will have come to the realization that Jackson just isn't the solution and will either replace him via free-agency or the draft.

If he doesn't improve during the 2010 season, I don't know how Pioli & Co. can sit on their hands and not make a move.

That, however, doesn't guarantee they'll make a move.

DaneMcCloud
08-23-2010, 05:55 PM
I think its fairly common for DL to take 3 years or so to develop. I would say that more often than not. That dont mean TJ will. But it could happen and it wouldnt be unusual if it did.

While I somewhat agree, I don't think it should take three years for the #3 overall player chosen in the NFL draft.

The #3 overall player should pretty much be a finished product, ready to make an immediate impact, unless we're talking QB.

DeezNutz
08-23-2010, 05:55 PM
Because I figure by the end of year two, the Chiefs will have come to the realization that Jackson just isn't the solution and will either replace him via free-agency or the draft.

If he doesn't improve during the 2010 season, I don't know how Pioli & Co. can sit on their hands and not make a move.

That, however, doesn't guarantee they'll make a move.

Yeah, I could see them moving off this player, and he's already losing plenty of snaps to Gilberry. The fact that this is already happening to a player with that big of contract should speak strongly to his level of suck.

CrazyHorse
08-23-2010, 05:58 PM
While I somewhat agree, I don't think it should take three years for the #3 overall player chosen in the NFL draft.

The #3 overall player should pretty much be a finished product, ready to make an immediate impact, unless we're talking QB.

I think where D linemen are concerned, you'll find they're not generally finished products. Regardless thier draft position. Especially 3-4 linemen.

Basileus777
08-23-2010, 06:00 PM
Tyson Jackson ever living up to his draft position is a lost cause, it probably was from the beginning. I'm just hoping he can be a decent starter at this point.

BossChief
08-23-2010, 06:02 PM
Richard Seymour and Vince Wilfork both started for defenses that lead the way to the Lombardi in their rookie year.

It can be done.

Sure-Oz
08-23-2010, 06:03 PM
Via Kent Babb twitter

Todd Haley said today that there's a chance Wallace Gilberry could become a starting DE. Well ... that isn't good news for Dorsey or Jackson 19 minutes ago via web


# I wld guess Jax based on his poor camp, but it'd be odd to have two undersized DEs in the 3-4 @captainmcinnis: Who loses job, Dorsey or Jax? 12 minutes ago via web

chiefzilla1501
08-23-2010, 06:07 PM
While I somewhat agree, I don't think it should take three years for the #3 overall player chosen in the NFL draft.

The #3 overall player should pretty much be a finished product, ready to make an immediate impact, unless we're talking QB.

Well, I think "immediate finished product" is jumping the gun a little bit, especially if you're talking about skill positions. A lot of top 3 picks are RBs and WRs and those guys tend to be so athletic that the transition to the NFL isn't that hard. When you're talking about QBs, LTs, CBs, DTs, and DEs, the speed/size of the game is so tremendously different that there's gotta be a learning curve. I look at Mario Williams, Terrence Newman, and D'Brikashaw Ferguson as pretty good examples of top 5 picks who had their share of struggles early on. And lots of top 5-10 D-Tackles were the same way.

What I do agree with is that in year 2, especially when you're atrocious in year 1, you should be seeing progress. So far, we've seen progress from Tyson Jackson this preseason but not nearly enough. I'd still give it until midseason to call him an outright bust. I think most of us by now have learned that he'll likely never live up to the pick, but I think there's still some reason to believe he can improve to be a passable starter.

CrazyHorse
08-23-2010, 06:09 PM
Via Kent Babb twitter

Todd Haley said today that there's a chance Wallace Gilberry could become a starting DE. Well ... that isn't good news for Dorsey or Jackson 19 minutes ago via web


# I wld guess Jax based on his poor camp, but it'd be odd to have two undersized DEs in the 3-4 @captainmcinnis: Who loses job, Dorsey or Jax? 12 minutes ago via web

I would be very surprized to see Dorsey lose his job. The guy is getting better. TJ would be the guy, IMO

chiefzilla1501
08-23-2010, 06:09 PM
I think where D linemen are concerned, you'll find they're not generally finished products. Regardless thier draft position. Especially 3-4 linemen.

Agreed. 3-4 DEs have to learn a totally different different position. They have to read defenses, which they don't do a lot of in college, and have to learn to shed-and-attack, which is also something they don't do much of in a 4-3.

But I also agree w/most people here that the lack of progress is something to worry about.

chiefzilla1501
08-23-2010, 06:12 PM
Via Kent Babb twitter

Todd Haley said today that there's a chance Wallace Gilberry could become a starting DE. Well ... that isn't good news for Dorsey or Jackson 19 minutes ago via web


# I wld guess Jax based on his poor camp, but it'd be odd to have two undersized DEs in the 3-4 @captainmcinnis: Who loses job, Dorsey or Jax? 12 minutes ago via web

I have a feeling this is a lot more of the same game they played with Cassel and Bowe last year. I would think they'll give Jackson every chance to succeed, even if that means not giving the guy in the back of the line a fair chance at starting.

I also think if we're building long-term, there's no incentive to go w/Gilberry. Maybe he's a better starter now, but he has a lot less upside than Jackson. Gilberry's a good guy for nickel situations, but I just don't see him being big or strong enough to be an every-down guy.

Coach
08-23-2010, 06:20 PM
Question. Am watching the Arizona/Nashville game. Is that the same Chris Babin that used to play for the Chiefs awhile back?
Posted via Mobile Device

BossChief
08-23-2010, 06:26 PM
Seymour made 0 impact his 1st year.yeah, starting on a superbowl winning defenses surely shouldnt count as making an impact.

Question. Am watching the Arizona/Nashville game. Is that the same Chris Babin that used to play for the Chiefs awhile back?
Posted via Mobile Device

who is this Chris Babin you speak of?

(yes)

CrazyHorse
08-23-2010, 07:38 PM
Agreed. 3-4 DEs have to learn a totally different different position. They have to read defenses, which they don't do a lot of in college, and have to learn to shed-and-attack, which is also something they don't do much of in a 4-3.

But I also agree w/most people here that the lack of progress is something to worry about.

Yeah, Im a little worried too. I would like to see a little more than what Im seeing. But I also know that in a 3-4 you dont hear much from the DL. The LBers get all the glory.

Let's just say in the end that Im hopeful. I certainly dont think that a player at that position can be judged after a few games. Many folks on this board, and all boards for that matter have a tendency to "evaluate" a player after a handful of games and then commit themselves so deeply to that evaluation that they can no longer even hope they get better.

My opinion is simply this. I havent seen much progress with him. However, I have with Dorsey. Many here had Dorsey as a bust after 3 games in the NFL. Is he a great player? NO. Can he still be? You're damn right he can.

If in the end Jackson winds up being a decent player, great. thats better than we have been doing drafting DL. Im not going to hold it against him where he was drafted. Im simply going to give him a little more time to get better and hope he get's it.

But yeah, Im a little worried.

DaneMcCloud
08-23-2010, 07:52 PM
Seriously, for the life of me, I can't figure out why the Chiefs aren't running Dorsey at NT like Jay Ratliff in Dallas with Jackson, Dorsey and Gilberry as starters.

Rotate Magee and Smith at DE with either Lokey/Edwards at the nose.

Penetrate and attack.

Mecca
08-23-2010, 07:53 PM
Seriously, for the life of me, I can't figure out why the Chiefs aren't running Dorsey at NT like Jay Ratliff in Dallas with Jackson, Dorsey and Gilberry as starters.

Rotate Magee and Smith at DE with either Lokey/Edwards at the nose.

Penetrate and attack.

Because the Chiefs don't run the aggressive Dallas type of 3-4, we run a 3-4 that is essentially the cover 2 of 3-4.

DaneMcCloud
08-23-2010, 07:57 PM
Because the Chiefs don't run the aggressive Dallas type of 3-4, we run a 3-4 that is essentially the cover 2 of 3-4.

Right.

But with the potential of this secondary, the Dallas 3-4 would be far more suitable for the current personnel.

notorious
08-23-2010, 08:04 PM
we run a 3-4 that is essentially the cover 2 of 3-4.

Shoot me in the fucking head, please.



Pressure through confusing blitzes and penetration while having the D-Backs jump routes is the only way to go in today's NFL.

BossChief
08-23-2010, 08:07 PM
Right.

But with the potential of this secondary, the Dallas 3-4 would be far more suitable for the current personnel.

I agree 100%

In fact, I think I started that talk back when it was still a possibility of Wade Phillips being one and done (in the playoffs) in Dallas and not retained. Opening the door for us to pursue him as our DC and bring in his scheme.

Its a shame that we will continue to play players out of position in this day and age just to try and make the scheme fit.

Dorsey could be a league DMVP type player if he played in that 1 gap 3-4 IMHO.

milkman
08-23-2010, 08:07 PM
Right.

But with the potential of this secondary, the Dallas 3-4 would be far more suitable for the current personnel.

It's something we've been trying to figure out for months now.

BossChief and I have talked about it a couple of times in the last year.

notorious
08-23-2010, 08:10 PM
Dorsey could be a league DMVP type player if he played in that 1 gap 3-4 IMHO.

This. Mother ****ing THIS.


Why do they continuously play the defense to their weaknesses instead of their strengths?



I see Warren Sapp like potential in Dorsey if he is used like Sapp was.


Disgusting.

DaneMcCloud
08-23-2010, 08:11 PM
It's something we've been trying to figure out for months now.

BossChief and I have talked about it a couple of times in the last year.

Yeah, I've mentioned it several times in the past year as well.

It just doesn't make any sense. I guess these guys are just too set in their ways but how can you look at Dallas game film and not think "Wow, Dorsey and Gilberry would be totally bad ass in that scheme?".

It's bizarre.

notorious
08-23-2010, 08:13 PM
Yeah, I've mentioned it several times in the past year as well.

It just doesn't make any sense. I guess these guys are just too set in their ways but how can you look at Dallas game film and not think "Wow, Dorsey and Gilberry would be totally bad ass in that scheme?".

It's bizarre.

Because stubburn old coaches think that their way is the only way.


Our D-coordinator had success in the old NFL. We will see how he does when the D-Backs can't rape the WR's all the way down the field.

BossChief
08-23-2010, 08:14 PM
I remember Warren Sapp clowning the Raiders publicly for using him in the same way we are currently using Dorsey in a 3-4 2 gap scheme.

Said it was the biggest waste of talent possible and thats how I see this current situation.

It speaks volumes how much character the kid has that he hasn't talked about it in the public because it surely is hurting his career. He should be a guy that is getting 8-12 sacks per year and disrupting, but is just taking up blockers.

stupid

DaneMcCloud
08-23-2010, 08:20 PM
Because stubburn old coaches think that their way is the only way.


Our D-coordinator had success in the old NFL. We will see how he does when the D-Backs can't rape the WR's all the way down the field.

That's the problem with hiring guys from a particular "tree".

Often times, they can't think out of the box.

There are a few instances of guys separating themselves (Holmgren, McCarthy and Reid come to mind - all Bill Walsh disciples) but more often, it's guys like Haley that follow the "formula" to a tee, without adding any wrinkles that ultimately fail.

I wasn't in favor of hiring Crennel, although I supported the Weis hiring. But Weis is ahead of the curve due to JC, D-Bowe, Chambers and now McCluster.

Romeo is going to need to do something drastic or his defense won't move much past Pendergast's in terms of overall performance.

CrazyHorse
08-23-2010, 08:25 PM
Because the Chiefs don't run the aggressive Dallas type of 3-4, we run a 3-4 that is essentially the cover 2 of 3-4.

I thought we were very aggressive against Tampa. Especially for it being preseason. Maybe I saw something that wasnt there.

How do you know the Chiefs are going to run a "cover 2" version of a 3-4 defense anyway? We're 2 games into the preseason with a new D coordinator that doesn't have a reputation running the defense your trying to describe.

Im not trying to be a prick or anything. But you come across as someone who get's no enjoyment out of football what so ever. Like you somehow have something to lose. It's supposed to be fun. Why choose to torture yourself? Or am I wrong about my perception on that?

BossChief
08-23-2010, 08:31 PM
This is the first I can find of me bringing it up....from 10-19-09

Interesting thread to read back through BTW... http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=216591&highlight=wade&page=6

again, it goes back to what style of 3-4 is ran.

Do we need a huge space eater at nt like Jamaal Williams for SD?

Possibly a penetrating type similar to what the Cowboys have (I hope we draft Suh, place him at rde and play Dorsey similarly to how Dallas uses their NT)

Just because we run a 3-4 doesnt mean we are hamstrung to running a traditional one.

ChiefsCountry
08-23-2010, 08:33 PM
Its bc its not the fuckin Patriot Way of doing things.

BossChief
08-23-2010, 08:38 PM
One of my pet peeves is when a new staff takes over any team and tries to force 'their scheme' on the players instead of evaluating the teams current talent and incorporating a scheme that best fits the talent they have on board.

This is exactly why I wasnt a big fan of the way this whole thing went over.

Billicheck didn't do this when he got to NE...he kept the 4-3 and built (for 2 years) the talent for a 3-4 while still putting a quality 4-3 out there the team could win with.

That so far is the difference between genius and what we did.

I bet ya if BB took over here last year, we are still a 4-3 defense.

notorious
08-23-2010, 08:40 PM
I bet ya if BB took over here last year, we are still a 4-3 defense.

But we needed to get almost all new players used to running a 3-4 as soon as possible, even when the old players were about to turn the corner and produce in the 4-3.

ChiefsCountry
08-23-2010, 08:48 PM
One of my pet peeves is when a new staff takes over any team and tries to force 'their scheme' on the players instead of evaluating the teams current talent and incorporating a scheme that best fits the talent they have on board.

This is exactly why I wasnt a big fan of the way this whole thing went over.

Billicheck didn't do this when he got to NE...he kept the 4-3 and built (for 2 years) the talent for a 3-4 while still putting a quality 4-3 out there the team could win with.

That so far is the difference between genius and what we did.

I bet ya if BB took over here last year, we are still a 4-3 defense.

Its why Pioli wasn't the brains behind New England's dyntasy.

BossChief
08-23-2010, 08:56 PM
But we needed to get almost all new players used to running a 3-4 as soon as possible, even when the old players were about to turn the corner and produce in the 4-3.

FTR I had no problem changing schemes.

I had a problem changing schemes to one that we had almost no pieces for that were already in place.

Drafting Jackson was a sign that "we are gonna force our scheme to work here"

I just hope Romeo does what he says (interview at the senior bowl iirc...maybe it was at the combine) and doesn't cement himself to a certain scheme and instead goes by what worked for him in NE...take away what the opposing offense wants to do and take them out of their comfort level to try and force them into mistakes. If we just sit back and allow teams to attack us all year long I (and many others) will be very displeased by that.

chiefzilla1501
08-23-2010, 09:12 PM
Seriously, for the life of me, I can't figure out why the Chiefs aren't running Dorsey at NT like Jay Ratliff in Dallas with Jackson, Dorsey and Gilberry as starters.

Rotate Magee and Smith at DE with either Lokey/Edwards at the nose.

Penetrate and attack.

Dane, it's pretty unfortunately actually. As I've said before (being the only Herm supporter on the board), I think this defense could have been really, really badass if they stuck to the 4-3. Especially if you consider that they could have drafted Orakpo. Can you imagine a D-line w/Hali-Dorsey-Tank-Orakpo, with Flowers, Carr, Pollard, and Page in the secondary? They'd be a few pieces away from being a top defense (don't even get me started on if Jared Allen was still here, rushing in front of FLowers/Carr... woof).

So if I had my pick, I wish Pioli would have stuck w/the 4-3. And now that he came in, I have a bad feeling the 2-gap 3-4 is a bit outdated and I especially worry that we're force-fitting into the scheme. I think Romeo is as good of a 2-gap DC as you'll find, but it doesn't change the fact that it probably shouldn't have been run in the first place. I also wonder if drafting Tyson Jackson almost tied the team to the 2-gap.

Oh well, it is what it is. I hope they can make it work and make it work quick. Unfortunately, you're absolutely right that it could have worked much better if they did some major things very differently.

chiefzilla1501
08-23-2010, 09:13 PM
Its why Pioli wasn't the brains behind New England's dyntasy.

He wasn't the brains behind it, but he was a much bigger brain there than people give him credit for.

DaneMcCloud
08-23-2010, 09:39 PM
He wasn't the brains behind it, but he was a much bigger brain there than people give him credit for.

Speculation.

To date, Pioli hasn't made even one move that would indicate that he was the "Executive of the Decade".

And Eric Berry falling into his lap at #5 doesn't count.

chiefzilla1501
08-23-2010, 09:55 PM
Speculation.

To date, Pioli hasn't made even one move that would indicate that he was the "Executive of the Decade".

And Eric Berry falling into his lap at #5 doesn't count.

I don't think it's speculation. I'm not saying he can do it without BB. But it's been well documented that the two relied heavily on each other. I don't think anyone can say for sure if BB could have done it without Pioli or if Pioli could have done it without BB.

I'm not saying Pioli's doing a good job now and he certainly hasn't proven he can do it alone. I just don't buy into any ridiculous claim that he was somehow a background piece in New England. Anyone who's read books on the Patriot Way knows that when it came to personnel, BB told Pioli what he wanted/needed and trusted Pioli 100% to use his scouting network to get him exactly what he needed.

BossChief
08-23-2010, 10:08 PM
Speculation.

To date, Pioli hasn't made even one move that would indicate that he was the "Executive of the Decade".

And Eric Berry falling into his lap at #5 doesn't count.

I disagree with this.

I think the 09 offseason was a complete disaster...I think the 10 offseason though has been quite good.

Could we have done better? time will tell, but it seems at the moment that we have added a bunch of answers and didnt add any more questions. That is progress in my book

Lilja
Berry
DMC
Arenas
Moeaki
Lewis
Asamoah

milkman
08-23-2010, 10:14 PM
I disagree with this.

I think the 09 offseason was a complete disaster...I think the 10 offseason though has been quite good.

Could we have done better? time will tell, but it seems at the moment that we have added a bunch of answers and didnt add any more questions. That is progress in my book

Lilja
Berry
DMC
Arenas
Moeaki
Lewis
Asamoah

Moeaki must be impressive on those stationary bikes.

DaneMcCloud
08-23-2010, 10:15 PM
I disagree with this.

I think the 09 offseason was a complete disaster...I think the 10 offseason though has been quite good.

Could we have done better? time will tell, but it seems at the moment that we have added a bunch of answers and didnt add any more questions. That is progress in my book

Lilja
Berry
DMC
Arenas
Moeaki
Lewis
Asamoah


There is absolutely no proof to date that any of these players are good, let alone great acquisitions.

There is more "hope" than last year but until they actually contribute, it's pillow talk.

milkman
08-23-2010, 10:17 PM
There is absolutely no proof to date that any of these players are good, let alone great acquisitions.

There is more "hope" than last year but until they actually contribute, it's pillow talk.

Wow.

I bet you really get your wife hot with that pillow talk.

BossChief
08-23-2010, 10:30 PM
Moeaki must be impressive on those stationary bikes.

I think the Planet should automatically add in "IHCSH" to every time Moeakis name is posted.

"if he can stay healthy" is something that even I have a hard time posting anything positive about the guy without adding.

same as roidman when you type SMs name...or probowl orton...

The kid can be a true difference maker in this offense IHCSH

notorious
08-23-2010, 10:34 PM
it's pillow talk.

Wow.

I bet you really get your wife hot with that pillow talk.


http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa183/Rolange/army-darkness/bruce-campbell.jpg



"Oh that's just what we call pillow talk, baby, that's all."

the Talking Can
08-24-2010, 06:12 AM
Via Kent Babb twitter

Todd Haley said today that there's a chance Wallace Gilberry could become a starting DE. Well ... that isn't good news for Dorsey or Jackson 19 minutes ago via web


# I wld guess Jax based on his poor camp, but it'd be odd to have two undersized DEs in the 3-4 @captainmcinnis: Who loses job, Dorsey or Jax? 12 minutes ago via web

good news that we're willing to play the better performing player


bad news that Gilberry is better than one of our top 5 picks

Marcellus
08-24-2010, 06:16 AM
There is absolutely no proof to date that any of these players are good, let alone great acquisitions.

There is more "hope" than last year but until they actually contribute, it's pillow talk.

Wouldn't that also apply to all players drafted by every other team as well?

the Talking Can
08-24-2010, 06:18 AM
One of my pet peeves is when a new staff takes over any team and tries to force 'their scheme' on the players instead of evaluating the teams current talent and incorporating a scheme that best fits the talent they have on board.

This is exactly why I wasnt a big fan of the way this whole thing went over.

Billicheck didn't do this when he got to NE...he kept the 4-3 and built (for 2 years) the talent for a 3-4 while still putting a quality 4-3 out there the team could win with.

That so far is the difference between genius and what we did.

I bet ya if BB took over here last year, we are still a 4-3 defense.


i'll admit some fail on this point (this is for you, hamas)

I love the 3-4 and was thrilled when they switched to it cold turkey....

but you'd have to say it's been a fairly disastrous transition in terms of opportunity costs related to the draft and personnel, and actual performance on the field, and we'll be moving into year 3 and still have to find/replace most of our front 7...which is just incomprehensible