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View Full Version : U.S. Issues A different perspective on the immigrant issue...


oldandslow
08-24-2010, 09:05 AM
My associate dean told me a story yesterday that I think bears reflection...

She is the daughter of a first generation German who immigrated to this nation in 1947, just 2 years after World War II.

She told me her father had served on the "eastern front" (all German soldiers who immigrated to the US after the war served on that very same front - go figure :) ), spoke very little English, and came over to simply find a job.

Amazingly enough, this soldier of the Third Reich obtained citizenship a mere 6 months after entering the country.

At this same university, a person of Hispanic heritage has worked diligently as a janitor for several years, and is having a horrific time obtaining citizenship now. She knows several folks (esp in Sioux City) who have been deported.

I honestly think it is more difficult to obtain citizenship now than it was back then and that is at the core of what is causing the illegal immigrant problem.

Should we make it easier to obtain citizenship? Or should we admit that we simply don't want more people in the country and close the borders?

I do think it is different now, tho.

mlyonsd
08-24-2010, 09:13 AM
I think there is a difference now too.

In the 40's and 50's our economy was booming. To the point we didn't have enough workers to fill the jobs. That isn't the case now.

We also have to face facts on social programs that have grown. For example I wonder what the CBO numbers would look like regarding our brilliant new HC system if we magically accept 12 million more people. And SS, considering most of these people haven't been paying in.

No, I think it would be wise to shut it down for about 30 years. Or at least to a time when the economy is booming to the point we can't fill jobs. Like 3% unemployment.

oldandslow
08-24-2010, 10:02 AM
I think there is a difference now too.

In the 40's and 50's our economy was booming. To the point we didn't have enough workers to fill the jobs. That isn't the case now.

We also have to face facts on social programs that have grown. For example I wonder what the CBO numbers would look like regarding our brilliant new HC system if we magically accept 12 million more people. And SS, considering most of these people haven't been paying in.

No, I think it would be wise to shut it down for about 30 years. Or at least to a time when the economy is booming to the point we can't fill jobs. Like 3% unemployment.

I think you and I are in agreement (I know that comes as a shock to those who view me as a wingnut :) ).

Population, then, is the problem...that is - overpopulation. Too many folks, not enough resources.

If this is true, it opens up an entirely new set of dimensions to the problem, e.g. we want to control the numbers of people - but since the number of workers helps to determine the upkeep of the capitalist state, we don't really want to control it so much after all. No one runs on a platform of limited growth.

Therefore, I tend to view immigration as only a minor subset of the overall problem.

King_Chief_Fan
08-24-2010, 10:29 AM
This country has a process for people to follow to become legal in this country...maybe that process needs some improvement..don't know.

I am all for deporting anyone who sneaks in.

jspchief
08-24-2010, 10:38 AM
I wonder if that German man referenced had found the process difficult, would he have chosen to come anyway and work under false identity?

Mile High Mania
08-24-2010, 10:49 AM
It's very difficult to really comment on the janitor's situation without knowing more details... he could very well be an honest, hard working guy. Then again, there could be any number of reasons as to why he's having a difficult time.

Becoming a citizen of the United States should be a difficult process... you're not joining a gym. Do parts of the process need to be 'enhanced'? Possibly, but the world is a different place from the 1940s... the United States is a different place.

fan4ever
08-24-2010, 10:52 AM
My associate dean told me a story yesterday that I think bears reflection...

She is the daughter of a first generation German who immigrated to this nation in 1947, just 2 years after World War II.

She told me her father had served on the "eastern front" (all German soldiers who immigrated to the US after the war served on that very same front - go figure :) ), spoke very little English, and came over to simply find a job.

Amazingly enough, this soldier of the Third Reich obtained citizenship a mere 6 months after entering the country.

At this same university, a person of Hispanic heritage has worked diligently as a janitor for several years, and is having a horrific time obtaining citizenship now. She knows several folks (esp in Sioux City) who have been deported.

I honestly think it is more difficult to obtain citizenship now than it was back then and that is at the core of what is causing the illegal immigrant problem.

Should we make it easier to obtain citizenship? Or should we admit that we simply don't want more people in the country and close the borders?

I do think it is different now, tho.

She's here illegally; the German immigrant wasn't? I'm sure if he had been in the same situation, citizenship would have been extremely elusive for him as well...

oldandslow
08-24-2010, 11:54 AM
She's here illegally; the German immigrant wasn't? I'm sure if he had been in the same situation, citizenship would have been extremely elusive for him as well...

No, that is not true...she has a green card or whatever it is that allows her to work...she just can't get citizenship. The University hires no one illegally as far as I know.

FD
08-24-2010, 11:54 AM
Should we make it easier to obtain citizenship? Or should we admit that we simply don't want more people in the country and close the borders?


I think it should be much easier to obtain citizenship. Immigrants built this country and I don't think anything has changed.

vailpass
08-24-2010, 11:57 AM
My associate dean told me a story yesterday that I think bears reflection...

She is the daughter of a first generation German who immigrated to this nation in 1947, just 2 years after World War II.

She told me her father had served on the "eastern front" (all German soldiers who immigrated to the US after the war served on that very same front - go figure :) ), spoke very little English, and came over to simply find a job.

Amazingly enough, this soldier of the Third Reich obtained citizenship a mere 6 months after entering the country.

At this same university, a person of Hispanic heritage has worked diligently as a janitor for several years, and is having a horrific time obtaining citizenship now. She knows several folks (esp in Sioux City) who have been deported.

I honestly think it is more difficult to obtain citizenship now than it was back then and that is at the core of what is causing the illegal immigrant problem.

Should we make it easier to obtain citizenship? Or should we admit that we simply don't want more people in the country and close the borders?

I do think it is different now, tho.

The level of contribution you can make to the country as indicated by your skills, education and abilities factor in to visa and citizenship award.
What were this Germans skills and education?

Iowanian
08-24-2010, 11:58 AM
Did the German man in 1947 sneak into the country in the gas tank of a 1988 Ford Van or did he enter the country legally to begin with?


It should be easier to walk into a store and buy an item than it is to get caught shoplifting it and then try to pay for it to make things right....but after all, both people in this example wanted the item.



The United States used to need the bodies as well as the minds.

In my opinion, we should welcome immigration to persons and families of persons who offer a benefit to the United States.

vailpass
08-24-2010, 11:58 AM
I think it should be much easier to obtain citizenship. Immigrants built this country and I don't think anything has changed.

Then you need to think harder.

mlyonsd
08-24-2010, 12:03 PM
I think you and I are in agreement (I know that comes as a shock to those who view me as a wingnut :) ).



With your background you're not the typical wing nut. You bring a unique perspective to the board.

At least I always read your posts knowing your positions come from a history no one here has duplicated.

patteeu
08-24-2010, 12:46 PM
Does your janitor speak, read, and write English?

oldandslow
08-24-2010, 01:13 PM
Does your janitor speak, read, and write English?

She speaks it. I can't comment on the read or write.

Pants
08-24-2010, 01:18 PM
You want to stop illegal immigration? Prevent employers from hiring cheap labor under the table.

vailpass
08-24-2010, 01:21 PM
You want to stop illegal immigration? Prevent employers from hiring cheap labor under the table.

Wow. Why hasn't anyone thought of that? I guess it took someone sitting in the middle of Kansas, pretty much ground zero in the border wars, to come up with that all encompassing solution to solve the illegal problem.

fan4ever
08-24-2010, 01:23 PM
No, that is not true...she has a green card or whatever it is that allows her to work...she just can't get citizenship. The University hires no one illegally as far as I know.

I assumed since you said her friends were being deported she was illegal as well.


A close friend of mine who was in the peace corp met a Mongolian woman overseas and it required a couple of years and all sorts of expenses and fees to get her here on a marriage visa...and they still are scrutinized and they've even had a child since then. Things are a lot tougher after 911.

King_Chief_Fan
08-24-2010, 01:48 PM
I think it should be much easier to obtain citizenship. Immigrants built this country and I don't think anything has changed.
:spock:
:shake:

Iowanian
08-24-2010, 01:49 PM
Here is an idea....

Assimilate. Learn our language. Take pride in being an American if you are or wish to be one.

Brock
08-24-2010, 01:59 PM
I think it should be much easier to obtain citizenship. Immigrants built this country and I don't think anything has changed.

Nothing's changed in 200 years? Are you sure?

patteeu
08-24-2010, 02:17 PM
What kind of difficulties is she running into? It seems like a green card holder who knows English ought to be able to finish the process and become a citizen.

FD
08-24-2010, 02:20 PM
Nothing's changed in 200 years? Are you sure?

The OP was talking about the 40's and 50's. I think the US is fundamentally the same country as it was during that time. I think America remains the "Land of Opportunity" and we should continue to welcome almost anyone who wishes to move here legally and work for a better life for themselves. Its a big part of what made this country great and no I don't think that has changed.

oldandslow
08-24-2010, 02:39 PM
What kind of difficulties is she running into? It seems like a green card holder who knows English ought to be able to finish the process and become a citizen.

Patteeu:

I honestly don't know. She simply came into my office one day and complained. We are on good terms. I suppose I should ask.

FD:

I think that it is a bit simplistic to believe that nothing has changed toward immigration since 1950. For one thing, the US had a population of 152 mil in 1950...It is pressing toward 350 mil now. That is not a sustainable rate of increase and immigration exacerbates the problem.

mylon:

Thank you for your kind words. While red folks were victimized pre 1950, we have been playing the victim far too often since then. We were at Sun Dance the last week in July (off Greenfield Road - the place was nearly flooded, but we were able to hold it anyway) and the whole tenor of the Elders and Chiefs had changed - away from victimhood toward strength...it was incredibly refreshing to watch a hundreds of indians listen to these strong words while our young men suffered for the people.

No one was talking about what "they" did to us. It was all about what we could do for ourselves.

This is so different than it was even a few years ago...Then it was all about how mistreated we felt. While it may or may not be true, moaning and complaining didn't do a damn thing to help our people.

Brock
08-24-2010, 02:39 PM
The OP was talking about the 40's and 50's. I think the US is fundamentally the same country as it was during that time.

No. It is not.

38yrsfan
08-24-2010, 04:46 PM
Patteeu:
No one was talking about what "they" did to us. It was all about what we could do for ourselves.

This is so different than it was even a few years ago...Then it was all about how mistreated we felt. While it may or may not be true, moaning and complaining didn't do a damn thing to help our people.

I have been hearing more of that here in the PNW also .... I have many "native" friends and one "adopted" son of the Flathead (one heck of a dart player also) and they have similar attitudes - working hard to achieve what they want instead of crying about how things have changed - they have for all us.

Hog Farmer
08-24-2010, 10:27 PM
Another thought is that there are over a million immigrants working here paying into social security that cannot receive benefits . If they are allowed to become citizens the system could not handle the payout.

notorious
08-24-2010, 10:33 PM
Wow. Why hasn't anyone thought of that? I guess it took someone sitting in the middle of Kansas, pretty much ground zero in the border wars, to come up with that all encompassing solution to solve the illegal problem.

LOL

BucEyedPea
08-25-2010, 09:09 AM
My associate dean told me a story yesterday that I think bears reflection...

She is the daughter of a first generation German who immigrated to this nation in 1947, just 2 years after World War II.

She told me her father had served on the "eastern front" (all German soldiers who immigrated to the US after the war served on that very same front - go figure :) ), spoke very little English, and came over to simply find a job.

Amazingly enough, this soldier of the Third Reich obtained citizenship a mere 6 months after entering the country.

At this same university, a person of Hispanic heritage has worked diligently as a janitor for several years, and is having a horrific time obtaining citizenship now. She knows several folks (esp in Sioux City) who have been deported.

I honestly think it is more difficult to obtain citizenship now than it was back then and that is at the core of what is causing the illegal immigrant problem.

Should we make it easier to obtain citizenship? Or should we admit that we simply don't want more people in the country and close the borders?

I do think it is different now, tho.

Are you sure your facts are correct? I thought to become a naturalized citizen it took 5 years. I believe that was set way back under Jefferson.
If you marry an American it's different. That now requires living here three years. Something about this story doesn't add up.

Be careful now, thought police, kcnative and D112 will be along shortly to scold you for using personal aquaintances story in a post.