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View Full Version : U.S. Issues Teaching 9/11 in the classroom


irishjayhawk
09-11-2010, 03:01 PM
Last night before SU2C on NBC, they ran a story about a town in Kansas teaching 9/11 in high school and a push to make it mandatory. Essentially, they wanted kids to "never forget" and to "understand the causes".

My question is simple:

Is that dangerous?

Don't get me wrong. I'm all for remembering the day but it's the "understanding causes" that raises my eyebrows. It can be a mixed bag. People drawing the line back to Reagan and the Iran Contra (or just weapon dealing in general), or the failures in Afghanistan (aka Charlie Wilson's War), American "freedoms", Western vs Eastern views or Islam itself?

I have a hard time any class will cover the subject evenhandedly. Or even attempt to. Obviously, I haven't seen the curriculum but "Islam itself" might get more play than weapons dealing. Or the like.

Thoughts?

eazyb81
09-11-2010, 04:53 PM
We should probably wait for Obama and Sebelius to tell us what to say. Until then sit tight and don't teach anything.

SNR
09-11-2010, 04:56 PM
I think you nailed it. The nation is still split between different theories in terms of what caused it. This isn't exactly WWII. It's much more elusive.

This is the kind of subject that should be saved for a college class and not public school, where students aren't taught how to think, how to question, and how to look at an issue like 9/11 and understand why terrorism exists, why the US ignored so many of the warning signs, and why it's still a hot issue today.

Jenson71
09-11-2010, 05:21 PM
They should be taught about it as they are taught WWII, Vietnam, the 60s, the American Revolution.

SNR
09-11-2010, 06:34 PM
They should be taught about it as they are taught WWII, Vietnam, the 60s, the American Revolution.If their education on those subjects was anything like my education on those subjects in high school, that doesn't bode very well.

WoodDraw
09-11-2010, 06:37 PM
As along as we can get the Texas legislature to write the textbook, we're golden.

Mile High Mania
09-11-2010, 06:45 PM
Bottom line ... teach your kids what you want them to know on topics like 911. The school version will be "light" and "politically correct".

My 8 year old asked me about it today - he knew that "bad guys attacked the twin towers". So, we talked about it, but it's difficult because of the fact that we live in a diverse area and he has friends that are muslim - nice families. So, there's a thin line and I hope we're doing it right.

Jerm
09-11-2010, 06:50 PM
It should only be a topic if all viewpoints, ideas, and thoughts will be implemented and welcome.

So basically I think it comes down to the teacher.

I had an awesome history teacher...we talked about all kinds of stuff from JFK's murder to Roswell to Vietnam and the Gulf of Tonkin, etc. and he was open and will to let anyone voice what they thought and then we'd debate or discuss it.

Brock
09-11-2010, 06:57 PM
All viewpoints, ideas, and thoughts are not worthy of being implemented or welcomed.

|Zach|
09-11-2010, 07:03 PM
I think you nailed it. The nation is still split between different theories in terms of what caused it. This isn't exactly WWII. It's much more elusive.

This is the kind of subject that should be saved for a college class and not public school, where students aren't taught how to think, how to question, and how to look at an issue like 9/11 and understand why terrorism exists, why the US ignored so many of the warning signs, and why it's still a hot issue today.

I hear what you are saying but...you can't teach American history in HS and just skip it.

BucEyedPea
09-11-2010, 07:05 PM
All viewpoints, ideas, and thoughts are not worthy of being implemented or welcomed.

fascism


I await the arrival of slainte now.

BucEyedPea
09-11-2010, 07:08 PM
Bottom line ... teach your kids what you want them to know on topics like 911. The school version will be "light" and "politically correct".

My 8 year old asked me about it today - he knew that "bad guys attacked the twin towers". So, we talked about it, but it's difficult because of the fact that we live in a diverse area and he has friends that are muslim - nice families. So, there's a thin line and I hope we're doing it right.

My kid's preschool were wrapped up discussing Clinton being "bad" because he "kissed a girl." ROFL

My daughter has now read The Thousand Year War as part of a course in Mid East studies. She understands why 9/11 happened. I don't need no stinkin' PC public school to tell her anything.

Brock
09-11-2010, 07:09 PM
fascism


I await the arrival of slainte now.

Case in point.

Hog Farmer
09-11-2010, 07:11 PM
Ok kids, let me have your attention class . Attention.

Today we are going to learn what happens when your father fucks goats and reads the Quran of which I have a copy of to pass around along with a pack of matches.

Jerm
09-11-2010, 07:18 PM
All viewpoints, ideas, and thoughts are not worthy of being implemented or welcomed.

Oh's that right..."don't think for yourself, we'll just force feed it to ya".

:rolleyes:

Brock
09-11-2010, 07:20 PM
Oh's that right..."don't think for yourself, we'll just force feed it to ya".

:rolleyes:

It's probably better than "hey duuuuudes, it was the bilderbergers and the trilateral commission behind it...."

Jerm
09-11-2010, 07:21 PM
It's probably better than "hey duuuuudes, it was the bilderbergers and the trilateral commission behind it...."

Nah....PNAC actually. %(/

Ebolapox
09-11-2010, 09:37 PM
wait.... kansas, where there are a majority of people who oppose teaching evolution in schools? I am SHOCKED, I say.

SNR
09-11-2010, 11:56 PM
I hear what you are saying but...you can't teach American history in HS and just skip it.I support any teacher who thinks he/she can talk about 9/11 successfully. That means talking about the history of the Middle East going back to 1950. That means talking about American foreign policy going back even further. It means talking about both subjects in a way that interests students and REALLY causes them to grasp the concepts.

The events leading up to 9/11 are quite a bit more difficult for the average high schooler to understand than ANY other period in American history.

blaise
09-12-2010, 01:02 AM
I support any teacher who thinks he/she can talk about 9/11 successfully. That means talking about the history of the Middle East going back to 1950. That means talking about American foreign policy going back even further. It means talking about both subjects in a way that interests students and REALLY causes them to grasp the concepts.

The events leading up to 9/11 are quite a bit more difficult for the average high schooler to understand than ANY other period in American history.

There's different levels you can get into though. You don't need to go back to 1950 and give a backstory to teach about the events that happened on 9/11. You explain the events of the day. Why would it be so hard? Men hijacked planes and flew them into the Twin Towers and the Pentagon, and the other crashed into a field. There's no obilgation to get into foreign policy that arose due to the events.

petegz28
09-12-2010, 01:06 AM
There's different levels you can get into though. You don't need to go back to 1950 and give a backstory to teach about the events that happened on 9/11. You explain the events of the day. Why would it be so hard? Men hijacked planes and flew them into the Twin Towers and the Pentagon, and the other crashed into a field. There's no obilgation to get into foreign policy that arose due to the events.

I think there is because the question that will be asked first is "why did they do that?"

It needs to be explained that the alleged excuse of bin Laden was that we are on his Holy Land in Saudi Arabia. It also needs to be explained that not only did we fund him against the Russians but that we stepped foot on his Holy Land to keep Sadaam Hussein from running right on over them and taking their oil.

blaise
09-12-2010, 01:10 AM
I think there is because the question that will be asked first is "why did they do that?"

It needs to be explained that the alleged excuse of bin Laden was that we are on his Holy Land in Saudi Arabia. It also needs to be explained that not only did we fund him against the Russians but that we stepped foot on his Holy Land to keep Sadaam Hussein from running right on over them and taking their oil.

No it doesn't. It needs to be explained? It's not part and parcel to teaching the events on that day.

petegz28
09-12-2010, 01:25 AM
No it doesn't. It needs to be explained? It's not part and parcel to teaching the events on that day.

Well, wouldn't that be the same as teaching that night time is when it is dark and day time is when it is light and leaving it at that?

blaise
09-12-2010, 01:29 AM
Well, wouldn't that be the same as teaching that night time is when it is dark and day time is when it is light and leaving it at that?

No, not really. What you're saying is that you can't just talk about a football game that occurred. You also have to talk about the history of the franchise and it's draft picks, the GM's philosophy and player evaluations from college. You can just talk about the game. It's high school, if people want more in depth discussion they can take a college class on it.

petegz28
09-12-2010, 01:45 AM
No, not really. What you're saying is that you can't just talk about a football game that occurred. You also have to talk about the history of the franchise and it's draft picks, the GM's philosophy and player evaluations from college. You can just talk about the game. It's high school, if people want more in depth discussion they can take a college class on it.

Well you are now talking about talking vs. teaching.

SNR
09-12-2010, 01:55 AM
No, not really. What you're saying is that you can't just talk about a football game that occurred. You also have to talk about the history of the franchise and it's draft picks, the GM's philosophy and player evaluations from college. You can just talk about the game. It's high school, if people want more in depth discussion they can take a college class on it.Class, today we're gonna talk about 9/11.

On September 11, 2001 some planes were hijacked by people in cahoots with Osama bin Laden. Two crashed into the WTC towers in NYC, they crashed, and people died.

The end.

SNR
09-12-2010, 02:01 AM
Just giving an account of the events isn't what history is about. It's not hard for students to wonder about the causes of events. The problem with history in our public schools is that we don't teach them to ask why or how.

What's that quote... those who don't learn from the past are bound to repeat it? Just explaining what took place teaches kids nothing. Except for maybe "watch your ass next time you go to NYC. You might be killed by a terrorist."

blaise
09-12-2010, 11:33 AM
Just giving an account of the events isn't what history is about. It's not hard for students to wonder about the causes of events. The problem with history in our public schools is that we don't teach them to ask why or how.

What's that quote... those who don't learn from the past are bound to repeat it? Just explaining what took place teaches kids nothing. Except for maybe "watch your ass next time you go to NYC. You might be killed by a terrorist."

So, unless we're prepared to delve into all aspects of every historical event, including anything and everything that led up to it, different versions of what it means, and what it could mean in the future, and exhaust every aspect of every detail of the event, we should just not bother teaching it.
Gotcha.

HonestChieffan
09-12-2010, 12:07 PM
I think you nailed it. The nation is still split between different theories in terms of what caused it. This isn't exactly WWII. It's much more elusive.

This is the kind of subject that should be saved for a college class and not public school, where students aren't taught how to think, how to question, and how to look at an issue like 9/11 and understand why terrorism exists, why the US ignored so many of the warning signs, and why it's still a hot issue today.

Yea. There are the kooks who think Bush did it. And 99.9% who saw the planes and understand it was an act of terrorism. Elusive as can be. Good reason to not teach the most savage act of terrorism to be done in the US. Maybe we need to stop teaching history all together.

SNR
09-12-2010, 12:35 PM
So, unless we're prepared to delve into all aspects of every historical event, including anything and everything that led up to it, different versions of what it means, and what it could mean in the future, and exhaust every aspect of every detail of the event, we should just not bother teaching it.
Gotcha.No. But put that idea of teaching history on one side of a spectrum opposite the brainless, putrid education system we have in place currently in our public schools. I certainly think we could stand to shift educational focus to the former side of that spectrum. And that would be enough to talk about something like 9/11

SNR
09-12-2010, 12:37 PM
Yea. There are the kooks who think Bush did it. And 99.9% who saw the planes and understand it was an act of terrorism. Elusive as can be. Good reason to not teach the most savage act of terrorism to be done in the US. Maybe we need to stop teaching history all together.I'm not talking about the 9/11 truth movement as the alternative you jackass

HonestChieffan
09-12-2010, 01:22 PM
I'm not talking about the 9/11 truth movement as the alternative you jackass

what alternative do you refer to that has you opposed to teaching history to students?

Reaper16
09-12-2010, 01:40 PM
Blaise is the enemy of education.

SNR
09-12-2010, 01:55 PM
what alternative do you refer to that has you opposed to teaching history to students?Yeah. I oppose teaching history. Hardcore.

Try reading my posts before you get cute with me.

HonestChieffan
09-12-2010, 02:04 PM
Just trying to figure out the idea of not teaching 9-11. If thats to difficult then fine.

SNR
09-12-2010, 02:08 PM
Just trying to figure out the idea of not teaching 9-11. If thats to difficult then fine.Tell me how you would teach 9/11 to a high school classroom, in a time when both sides of the political spectrum have different interpretations of its causes.

And if you keep it simple, what are you going to say to a class when they probably know the simple stuff already?

HonestChieffan
09-12-2010, 03:03 PM
Did your history classes not look at both sides of issues? Would you limit history classes to only those bits of historical record that were one sided?

irishjayhawk
09-12-2010, 03:26 PM
They should be taught about it as they are taught WWII, Vietnam, the 60s, the American Revolution.

Are you contending that our current history education is well rounded, especially on the WWII and Vietnam fronts?

irishjayhawk
09-12-2010, 03:27 PM
Did your history classes not look at both sides of issues? Would you limit history classes to only those bits of historical record that were one sided?

Did you even read the OP?

irishjayhawk
09-12-2010, 03:28 PM
So, unless we're prepared to delve into all aspects of every historical event, including anything and everything that led up to it, different versions of what it means, and what it could mean in the future, and exhaust every aspect of every detail of the event, we should just not bother teaching it.
Gotcha.

I'm not even attempting to say the class cover all aspects. But where do you draw the line on the causes?

HonestChieffan
09-12-2010, 03:59 PM
can you enumerate what might be in that list of "causes"?

SNR
09-12-2010, 04:02 PM
Would you limit history classes to only those bits of historical record that were one sided?I'm saying that's what public schools do NOW. They're unoriginal and boring, and kids come out of history classes hating history. There's a reason why an unfortunately high number of high school graduates can't find Iraq on a map.

If you want to trust teaching 9/11 to the same assholes that churn out todays standards in social studies education, be my guest.

And this is speculation on my part (probably unfair speculation) but something tells me if they're teaching 9/11 because "WE MUST NEVAR FORGET!!!111" they're going to teach, "They hate us for our freedoms. Al Qaida and other terrorist organizations are the result. 9/11 happens." And it's just not that simple.

HonestChieffan
09-12-2010, 04:03 PM
I'm saying that's what public schools do NOW. They're unoriginal and boring, and kids come out of history classes hating history. There's a reason why an unfortunately high number of high school graduates can't find Iraq on a map.

If you want to trust teaching 9/11 to the same assholes that churn out todays standards in social studies education, be my guest.

And this is speculation on my part (probably unfair speculation) but something tells me if they're teaching 9/11 because "WE MUST NEVAR FORGET!!!111" they're going to teach, "They hate us for our freedoms. Al Qaida and other terrorist organizations are the result. 9/11 happens." And it's just not that simple.

OK. Gotcha.

Jenson71
09-12-2010, 05:24 PM
Are you contending that our current history education is well rounded, especially on the WWII and Vietnam fronts?

Mine was. Are you suggesting that our current history education is not well rounded? What's especially lacking? I'm not disagreeing with you, I'm just ignorant of all that.

irishjayhawk
09-12-2010, 05:26 PM
can you enumerate what might be in that list of "causes"?

Read the OP. Seriously.

irishjayhawk
09-12-2010, 05:29 PM
Mine was. Are you suggesting that our current history education is not well rounded? What's especially lacking? I'm not disagreeing with you, I'm just ignorant of all that.

Well, I'm not too well versed on the subject, but I am reading a quite interesting book called Lies My Teacher Told Me which details some of this.

A good example, in my opinion, is the emphasis on, say, the Holocaust while the Battle of Stalingrad was much, much more costly. I'd say that WWII history is very Band of Brother's ish. In that, it's entertaining and heroized rather than actually substantive.

Like you, my history classes were fairly good. I'm not convinced public schools (like the one promoting this class) are.

HonestChieffan
09-12-2010, 09:32 PM
Read the OP. Seriously.

Play your silly ass word games with somebody else. Simple direct questions clearly are over your head.

Jenson71
09-12-2010, 09:44 PM
I think some people mistakenly view historical events as being far too one-dimensional. "WWII? Oh, Hitler was the cause. That's easy to go through with 10th graders. Sept 11? There are a million things to say! Iran-Contra [huh?], clash of cultures, globalization, American military empire and industry, Islam!"

HonestChieffan
09-12-2010, 10:04 PM
maybe the lesson is there are many factors that have often been behind events in history that combine to lead to a bad end.

SNR
09-12-2010, 10:08 PM
maybe the lesson is there are many factors that have often been behind events in history that combine to lead to a bad end.If the classroom has a good teacher at the head, that sounds like a great unit/lesson/lecture/reading/whatever.

I'm very bitter because my high school education was absolute crap. I know there are incredible teachers out there. But unfortunately I know far more awful teachers that would not be good at teaching this.

HonestChieffan
09-12-2010, 10:49 PM
If the classroom has a good teacher at the head, that sounds like a great unit/lesson/lecture/reading/whatever.

I'm very bitter because my high school education was absolute crap. I know there are incredible teachers out there. But unfortunately I know far more awful teachers that would not be good at teaching this.


My HS history teacher was great and the three US history classes I took in college were fantastic.History done well is a gift.

blaise
09-12-2010, 11:35 PM
Blaise is the enemy of education.


Due to time contraints, they'll need to draw a line on how in depth they get into the subject. If the time you decide to spend on it is less than someone else's I suppose you'll be an enemy of education, too.

Reaper16
09-13-2010, 12:47 AM
Due to time contraints, they'll need to draw a line on how in depth they get into the subject. If the time you decide to spend on it is less than someone else's I suppose you'll be an enemy of education, too.
Sure. The line that you drew goes no farther than "planes flew into buildings go boom." You can't teach shit with no context.

patteeu
09-13-2010, 06:56 AM
It needs to be taught. It's only risky if dopey conspiracy theorists like Jerm or blame-America-firsters like BEP or irish are the teachers. And if that's the case your kids are probably already in trouble.

patteeu
09-13-2010, 07:01 AM
I'm not even attempting to say the class cover all aspects. But where do you draw the line on the causes?

The cause of 9/11 was jihad by an anti-Western, anti-American, islamic extremist group called al Qaeda. Al Qaeda's leadership claimed to be upset because US troops had been stationed in Saudi Arabia to deter Iraq following the first Gulf War.

SNR
09-13-2010, 10:54 AM
The cause of 9/11 was jihad by an anti-Western, anti-American, islamic extremist group called al Qaeda. Al Qaeda's leadership claimed to be upset because US troops had been stationed in Saudi Arabia to deter Iraq following the first Gulf War.I like Reaper's explanation better.

"Planes fly into buildings go boom."

BIG_DADDY
09-13-2010, 12:48 PM
I am sure this will be taught in the same manner it was reported by the media. It's funny, I never did my due diligence on this whole conspiracy theory so I can't talk logically on it. I have noticed nobody seems to really wants to drill down and talk about the finer points of it though. The whole subject seems to be dealt with in a mud sling fest manner.

vailpass
09-13-2010, 12:53 PM
This is one of those subject that can be touched on in school but must be reinforced with parental teaching at home.