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petegz28
09-11-2010, 09:15 PM
Man ignites Koran near Ground Zero, apparently prompted by Florida Pastor Terry Jones

Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/2010/09/11/2010-09-11_man_ignites_koran_near_ground_zero_apparently_prompted_by_florida_pastor_terry_j.html#ixzz0zHGcvy 7K

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ChiefaRoo
09-11-2010, 09:18 PM
Time for the savages to grow up.

petegz28
09-11-2010, 09:24 PM
"If they can burn American flags, I can burn the Koran," shouted the unidentified man. "America should never be afraid to give their opinion."

Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/2010/09/11/2010-09-11_man_ignites_koran_near_ground_zero_apparently_prompted_by_florida_pastor_terry_j.html#ixzz0zHJ3PG Uk

Hog Farmer
09-11-2010, 09:25 PM
He didn't do a very good job

petegz28
09-11-2010, 09:26 PM
WASHINGTON (AFP) – A small group of conservative Christians tore some pages from a Koran in a protest outside the White House Saturday to denounce what they called the "charade of Islam" on the anniversary of 9/11.

"Part of why we're doing that, please hear me: the charade that Islam is a peaceful religion must end," said Randall Terry, a leading anti-abortion campaigner, and one of six people who took part in the protest.

Another activist, Andrew Beacham, read out a few Koran passages calling for hatred towards Christians and Jews, and then ripped those pages from an English paperback edition of the Islamic holy book.

He carefully put the torn pieces into a plastic bag, in order not to litter, and said: "The only reason I will not burn it at the White House is because to burn anything on the Capitol grounds is a felony."

Beacham, who describes himself as a leader of the rightwing conservative Tea Party from Indiana, added: "The Twin Towers were taken down because of the Koran and other religious teachings."

A few curious tourists stopped to watch the huddle outside the White House, while police took down the names of the participants but did not intervene.

The tiny protest came as the United States marked the somber ninth anniversary of the September 11 attacks amid heightened tensions following a radical Florida pastor's threat to burn the Koran.

After days of global outrage and protests, pastor Terry Jones, from Gainesville, said Saturday: "We will definitely not burn the Koran, no."

"Not today, not ever," he told NBC television when pressed for his plans.

President Barack Obama told a deeply polarized America on Saturday that Islam was not the enemy as the 9/11 ceremonies took place.

"As Americans we will not and never will be at war with Islam. It was not a religion that attacked us that September day. It was Al-Qaeda, (a) sorry band of men, which perverts religion," Obama said.


http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20100911/ts_alt_afp/usattacks9yearsreligionislamdemo_20100911185812

petegz28
09-11-2010, 09:40 PM
2 Local (TEN) Men Burn Quran Despite Protest

SPRINGFIELD, Tenn. -- Despite multiple pleas to reconsider, two local religious leaders held a private Quran burning in a Springfield backyard Saturday afternoon.

The Rev. Bob Old and the Rev. Danny Allen both had different reasons for burning the Muslim holy book, but they said it had nothing to do with whether or not a mosque was built near ground zero.

"It's about faith, it's about love, but you have to have the right book behind you. This is a book of hate, not a book of love," said Old while holding up a Quran.

The two men said they burned the books to defend the United States Constitution and the American people. It's a move that has been denounced by Christian groups, politicians and even some of their family members.

Three women who have loved ones fighting abroad stood outside of Old's home holding up signs to protest the burnings.

"Somebody's got to stand up for the troops," said Ashley Parsons.

Parsons' husband is fighting in Afghanistan. This is his fifth tour of duty. She said she thinks it is shameful someone would take the anniversary of a national tragedy and do something that both the president and military leaders have said could endanger troops fighting abroad.

"I was livid," Parsons said. " I was very angry. I was very angry, and I'm scared. I'm scared for my husband. I'm scared for my friends and everybody who protects us."

http://www.wsmv.com/news/24972042/detail.html

mikey23545
09-11-2010, 10:04 PM
The two men said they burned the books to defend the United States Constitution


Could any statement be more retarded?

Direckshun
09-11-2010, 10:12 PM
Hooray?

Direckshun
09-11-2010, 10:13 PM
The two men said they burned the books to defend the United States Constitution

Could any statement be more retarded?

I don't know.

I'm sure in their world it makes perfect sense. If you listen to any talk radio, this kind of logic rules the day.

Dallas Chief
09-11-2010, 10:17 PM
I don't know.

I'm sure in their world it makes perfect sense. If you listen to any talk radio, this kind of logic rules the day.

I believe we have just found a more retarded statement. Nice job Ms!

Direckshun
09-11-2010, 10:29 PM
I believe we have just found a more retarded statement. Nice job Ms!

Do you listen to any talk radio?

Because I listen to it pretty much incessantly. Check out Mark Levin's facebook page sometime and see the comments people leave on it.

Dallas Chief
09-11-2010, 10:50 PM
Do you listen to any talk radio?

Because I listen to it pretty much incessantly. Check out Mark Levin's facebook page sometime and see the comments people leave on it.

Not incessantly, but enough. I actually listen to Mark Levin sometimes on the drive home so I can hear him scream at people at call them names. LMAO I don't doubt that he is a smart cat though. Not sure what facebook comments have to do with his radio show. I guess you are trying to tie his daily program and supposed wacky comments on his facebook in a "see!!! look there at all the RWNJ's!!!!" gotcha moment. I know how you libtards roll- you love to play the whole gotcha game. In the end though, it could be anybody making those comments, even you. I don't do facebook so I haven't looked at any of the comments on Levin's page. As Michael Savage put it, "Facebook is the online equivalent of staring at yourself in the mirror... a high tech form of narcissism" I'm not admonishing anyone for using it, I just don't find it to be necessary in my life.

Direckshun
09-11-2010, 10:54 PM
Not incessantly, but enough. I actually listen to Mark Levin sometimes on the drive home so I can hear him scream at people at call them names. LMAO

You'd like this thread (http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=195353&highlight=mark+levin), btw. :)

I don't doubt that he is a smart cat though. Not sure what facebook comments have to do with his radio show. I guess you are trying to tie his daily program and supposed wacky comments on his facebook in a "see!!! look there at all the RWNJ's!!!!" gotcha moment.

Exactly right.

That's because his rhetoric (and honestly, the rhetoric of the entire talk radio sphere) stokes an insanity that you see pour through talk radio every day. The folks that post on his facebook page are loyal listeners. They are the equivalent of Rush Limbaugh's "dittoheads."

T-post Tom
09-11-2010, 11:05 PM
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Direckshun
09-11-2010, 11:09 PM
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Exactly. You can't go four days on Savage's program without a reference to this justifying whatever anti-Islam protests one could conjure.

T-post Tom
09-11-2010, 11:12 PM
Exactly. You can't go four days on Savage's program without a reference to this justifying whatever anti-Islam protests one could conjure.

Listening to Savage causes brain tumors.

Direckshun
09-11-2010, 11:13 PM
Listening to Savage causes brain tumors.

Preaching, choir, etc.

Dallas Chief
09-11-2010, 11:16 PM
You'd like this thread (http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=195353&highlight=mark+levin), btw. :)



Exactly right.

That's because his rhetoric (and honestly, the rhetoric of the entire talk radio sphere) stokes an insanity that you see pour through talk radio every day. The folks that post on his facebook page are loyal listeners. They are the equivalent of Rush Limbaugh's "dittoheads."

Jesus. Here we go again with the sweeping generalization lumping everybody into the same milieu. One's a wacko, so they all must be wackos!!! Look, you are entitled to your opinion, but what you are saying in the above statement is not based on any kind of facts. Just the perception of some local from Springfield with a liberal bent. It doesn't make something true just because you say it over and over again. I know this game. You see it on the news channels every night. I cringe when I hear in MSNBC and I cringe when I hear it on Fox News. It makes me turn the channel because it is all about fabricating the news instead of reporting it. I liken it to what you do here- try to create a fact instead of citing one. I hope you see the light one day... and I don't mean that in a political sense... more of a common sense. Peace...

ROYC75
09-11-2010, 11:17 PM
I figured somebody would do this after the pastor backed out.

Bottom line is , they can do anything they want in any fashion but Americans with free speech can not.

As I said before, he or the pastor was within their rights to do this, but it just wasn't a good / smart move. Not that I fear the Muslims or Islam, why add fuel to the fire.

OTOH, when is America / Americans going to stand up and not let these extremist / jihadist threaten our life style.

Now since there is publicity, the nutjobs will be out in full force.

Direckshun
09-11-2010, 11:27 PM
Jesus. Here we go again with the sweeping generalization lumping everybody into the same milieu. One's a wacko, so they all must be wackos!!! Look, you are entitled to your opinion, but what you are saying in the above statement is not based on any kind of facts. Just the perception of some local from Springfield with a liberal bent. It doesn't make something true just because you say it over and over again. I know this game. You see it on the news channels every night. I cringe when I hear in MSNBC and I cringe when I hear it on Fox News. It makes me turn the channel because it is all about fabricating the news instead of reporting it. I liken it to what you do here- try to create a fact instead of citing one. I hope you see the light one day... and I don't mean that in a political sense... more of a common sense. Peace...

I can't name two people on talk radio that are anything other than demagogues.

Can you?

Direckshun
09-11-2010, 11:27 PM
I figured somebody would do this after the pastor backed out.

Bottom line is , they can do anything they want in any fashion but Americans with free speech can not.

Swing and a miss.

alnorth
09-11-2010, 11:36 PM
As I said before, he or the pastor was within their rights to do this, but it just wasn't a good / smart move. Not that I fear the Muslims or Islam, why add fuel to the fire.

When they use our flags as tiki torches, is it for warmth? (Not that I care about flags burning) Nothing they ever do, from burning shit, to screaming death to america, to cutting heads off, none of that seems to add fuel to the fire. If we burn a few books here everyone gets the vapors.

Let people do what they want, within the law. If someone outside of our nation complains, shrug your shoulders, say you didn't burn the book, and tough shit if they dont like it. It wasn't imported, some american company bought paper, printed on it, sold it to another american, who burned it. It is none of their damned business. If they attack us for it, hit them back.

boogblaster
09-11-2010, 11:37 PM
Shoot a Rughead Save a camel ..

petegz28
09-11-2010, 11:41 PM
Swing and a miss.

Horseshit. It's at the point now that if Muslims were offended by people taking a dump we would be chastised for taking a dump.

petegz28
09-11-2010, 11:42 PM
While stupid, this whole ordeal has shown that ME Muslims are anything but participans in a religion of peace.

Direckshun
09-11-2010, 11:44 PM
Horseshit. It's at the point now that if Muslims were offended by people taking a dump we would be chastised for taking a dump.

No, ROYC was making the argument that "Muslims can do whatever offensive shit that they want, and we can't."

When that's wrong. In 99.9999999% of the cases, we can do whatever offensive shit we want.

Right? We can.

Please find a single link where any Koran burners have been arrested, and I'll change my tune.

petegz28
09-11-2010, 11:47 PM
No, ROYC was making the argument that "Muslims can do whatever offensive shit that they want, and we can't."

When that's wrong. In 99.9999999% of the cases, we can do whatever offensive shit we want.

Right? We can.

Please find a single link where any Koran burners have been arrested, and I'll change my tune.

Yes, but unlike you, I understand the point he was making. And so do you, though you choose to be obtuse about it.

Dallas Chief
09-11-2010, 11:48 PM
I can't name two people on talk radio that are anything other than demagogues.

Can you?

Demagogues? You give them too much credit. It's not power they are after. Its the books, the money, the appearances, the cash. In my opinion, the left despises it because they have been so unsuccessful at capitalizing on it. If the scenario was flipped, you would be singing the praises of the all of the successful left leaning radio personalities.

However, if I had to name two radio personalities that are more tame in their approach it would probably be Michael Medved and Dennis Prager. Just because I named two doesn't mean I agree with your take that all of the others are demagogues. You are not going to trap me with that "see see you can only name two therefore the others are xyz..." I just don't take them that seriously, they make me laugh way too much...

Direckshun
09-11-2010, 11:50 PM
Yes, but unlike you, I understand the point he was making. And so do you, though you choose to be obtuse about it.

I guess I missed it.

I thought the argument he was making was that our freedom of religion or our freedom of speech was somehow being hindered? Is it?

Direckshun
09-11-2010, 11:52 PM
Demagogues? You give them too much credit. It's not power they are after. Its the books, the money, the appearances, the cash. In my opinion, the left despises it because they have been so unsuccessful at capitalizing on it. If the scenario was flipped, you would be singing the praises of the all of the successful left leaning radio personalities.

However, if I had to name two radio personalities that are more tame in their approach it would probably be Michael Medved and Dennis Prager. Just because I named two doesn't mean I agree with your take that all of the others are demagogues. You are not going to trap me with that "see see you can only name two therefore the others are xyz..." I just don't take them that seriously, they make me laugh way too much...

I take them incredibly seriously, because they engineer the language, the tone, and the arguments that the Republican base uses. But yeah, they are clearly more entertainment value than anything.

FTR, the only rightwing radio host that ever makes a lick of sense to me is Dennis Miller. I haven't heard Medved in nearly a decade, and I'm not familiar with Prager.

petegz28
09-11-2010, 11:54 PM
I guess I missed it.

I thought the argument he was making was that our freedom of religion or our freedom of speech was somehow being hindered? Is it?

Hindered? More like an attempted manipulation. You have the President of the United States asking people to shut up and calling out his media dogs to help.

Direckshun
09-11-2010, 11:57 PM
Hindered? More like an attempted manipulation. You have the President of the United States asking people to shut up and calling out his media dogs to help.

Asking. That's the difference.

He's not demanding. He can't demand it.

So I'm still free to burn a Koran. Right now in my back yard, if I wanted to. Yelling "fuck Muslims" the entire time.

petegz28
09-12-2010, 12:01 AM
Asking. That's the difference.

He's not demanding. He can't demand it.

So I'm still free to burn a Koran. Right now in my back yard, if I wanted to. Yelling "**** Muslims" the entire time.

He doesn't do a whole lot to defend the free speech of the people compared to how much he defends Islam. Fuck, he even made it a point in his speech today to defend Islam. Meanwhile he is calling people and asking them to STFU. Something is really wrong there.

Dallas Chief
09-12-2010, 12:12 AM
No, ROYC was making the argument that "Muslims can do whatever offensive shit that they want, and we can't."

When that's wrong. In 99.9999999% of the cases, we can do whatever offensive shit we want.

Right? We can.

Please find a single link where any Koran burners have been arrested, and I'll change my tune.

Does "removed" count as "arrested"??? If so...

http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2010/09/man_burns_quran_near_ground_ze.html

Direckshun
09-12-2010, 12:14 AM
He doesn't do a whole lot to defend the free speech of the people compared to how much he defends Islam. ****, he even made it a point in his speech today to defend Islam. Meanwhile he is calling people and asking them to STFU. Something is really wrong there.

Who does he need to defend the free speech from? Are there hordes of people physically keeping folks from burning the Koran?

Direckshun
09-12-2010, 12:16 AM
Does "removed" count as "arrested"?

Seeing how those two words are not the same word, I'm going to say no on that one.

petegz28
09-12-2010, 12:17 AM
Who does he need to defend the free speech from? Are there hordes of people physically keeping folks from burning the Koran?

:facepalm:

T-post Tom
09-12-2010, 12:21 AM
Yes, but unlike you, I understand the point he was making. And so do you, though you choose to be obtuse about it.

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Direckshun
09-12-2010, 12:21 AM
:facepalm:

I'm asking.

Because the Constitution protects free speech.

The Constitution does not guarantee those speaking freely to be free of criticism or (legal) harrassment.

You honestly sound like Dr. Laura, who just resigned from the radio because people got mad she said "nigger" on the air.

petegz28
09-12-2010, 12:26 AM
I'm asking.

Because the Constitution protects free speech.

The Constitution does not guarantee those speaking freely to be free of criticism or (legal) harrassment.

You honestly sound like Dr. Laura, who just resigned from the radio because people got mad she said "****er" on the air.

You're damn right it does. Therefore the President has no business calling people and asking them not to exercise their Rights.

Direckshun
09-12-2010, 12:31 AM
You're damn right it does. Therefore the President has no business calling people and asking them not to exercise their Rights.

Sure he does. We've got two armies in two Middle Eastern countries fighting extremists who recruit impoverished, desperate foot soldiers using War of Religions rhetoric. It helps their cause and puts our troops in even more harm.

I'm going to repeat that: it puts our troops in even more harm.

Presidents can ask Americans to do and not do anything. Bush asked Americans not to question the reasons behind the Iraq war. Happens with every President.

But neither Bush nor Obama, nor anybody, can demand that we not express ourselves.

petegz28
09-12-2010, 12:40 AM
Sure he does. We've got two armies in two Middle Eastern countries fighting extremists who recruit impoverished, desperate foot soldiers using War of Religions rhetoric. It helps their cause and puts our troops in even more harm.

I'm going to repeat that: it puts our troops in even more harm.

Presidents can ask Americans to do and not do anything. Bush asked Americans not to question the reasons behind the Iraq war. Happens with every President.

But neither Bush nor Obama, nor anybody, can demand that we not express ourselves.

And allegedly those armies are over there fighting for us to be able to have the Rights you and so many others, including Obama, don't want to see exercised.

Simple question, did you vote for John F. Kerry?

FTR, our troops are already in harm's way. They are in a fucking war in a war zone. And if you ask me this makes their job easier as they have less to worry about when it comes to who is the bad guy and who is the good guy? If this makes them all the bad guy then they have an easier target.

petegz28
09-12-2010, 12:47 AM
People who want to jump on the mantra of "this puts our troops in danger of even more harm" are out there beyond Left Field. That is political correctness trying to fight a war.

Do I think burning the Quran is a good way to get your point across? Not really. That being said though, Left Wingers cry every day about how Bush took freedoms away from us yet the minute someone does something grounded in the Constitution you want to tell them not too out of fear it might piss off the enemy(ies) even more.

So I have to ask the question, who is really threatening the freedoms there in that scenario? My answer would be the terrorists and terrorist supporters.

If Islam is truly a "religion of peace" then those muslims who live by that philosophy will chalk it all up to a few morons being morons. Those who choose to become violent over it were probably supportive, either directly or in-directly of the "radicals" in the first place.

Direckshun
09-12-2010, 12:47 AM
And allegedly those armies are over there fighting for us to be able to have the Rights you and so many others, including Obama, don't want to see exercised.

I don't even know what you're arguing. That I should want to see Korans being burnt now?

You're losing me.

And if you ask me this makes their job easier as they have less to worry about when it comes to who is the bad guy and who is the good guy?

Again, I don't even know what you're arguing. Burning Korans makes the troops' job easier?

You're losing me, man.

petegz28
09-12-2010, 12:49 AM
I don't even know what you're arguing. That I should want to see Korans being burnt now?

You're losing me.



Again, I don't even know what you're arguing. Burning Korans makes the troops' job easier?

You're losing me, man.

If the BS you say is true about it making more enemies then that means there are less friendlies, meaning less to worry about when it comes to taking out the bad guy. Take your PC hat off for a second and you might just get it for once. If I know just about every one around me is the bad guy it makes my job easier than if I have to worry about who is the bad guy and who is the good guy?

Direckshun
09-12-2010, 12:50 AM
People who want to jump on the mantra of "this puts our troops in danger of even more harm" are out there beyond Left Field. That is political correctness trying to fight a war.

It's not political correctness that's driving this discussion. The wars we're in are just as much wars of rhetoric and messaging as they are wars of mortar and bullets.

Do I think burning the Quran is a good way to get your point across? Not really. That being said though, Left Wingers cry every day about how Bush took freedoms away from us yet the minute someone does something grounded in the Constitution you want to tell them not too out of fear it might piss off the enemy(ies) even more.

There's a difference between taking rights away and asking in certain situations that they not be exercised.

For instance, you probably don't want me telling your kid every day that Obama is Jesus Christ, and deserving of worship. And telling me not to do that doesn't mean you're trying to stop my freedom of speech. You just don't want me to express it that way.

Does that mean you'd be hating America and all it's ideals? This isn't hard to understand.

Direckshun
09-12-2010, 12:51 AM
If the BS you say is true about it making more enemies then that means there are less friendlies, meaning less to worry about when it comes to taking out the bad guy. Take your PC hat off for a second and you might just get it for once. If I know just about every one around me is the bad guy it makes my job easier than if I have to worry about who is the bad guy and who is the good guy?

I'm amazed you're not a 5-star general by now with bulletproof strategies like that, that are not batshit crazy in any way.

petegz28
09-12-2010, 12:53 AM
It's not political correctness that's driving this discussion. The wars we're in are just as much wars of rhetoric and messaging as they are wars of mortar and bullets.



There's a difference between taking rights away and asking in certain situations that they not be exercised.

For instance, you probably don't want me telling your kid every day that Obama is Jesus Christ, and deserving of worship. And telling me not to do that doesn't mean you're trying to stop my freedom of speech. You just don't want me to express it that way.

Does that mean you'd be hating America and all it's ideals? This isn't hard to understand.

Wha wha wha, you and Obama and your ilk want to say out of one side of your mouth how Islam is the religion of peace, but out of the other side of your face you want to say how an act committed by a few people are going to enrage the muslims to violent levels.

As I said once already, if they are peace lovers they will not get violent over a few people doing something like this. And if they do become violent they were probably borderline in the first place and more than likely supportive of Al Qaeda and every other terrorist organization gunning for America.

You and Obama and others don't want to think things through. You just want to yap your traps.

Direckshun
09-12-2010, 12:56 AM
Wha wha wha, you and Obama and your ilk want to say out of one side of your mouth how Islam is the religion of peace, but out of the other side of your face you want to say how an act committed by a few people are going to enrage the muslims to violent levels.

As I said once already, if they are peace lovers they will not get violent over a few people doing something like this. And if they do become violent they were probably borderline in the first place and more than likely supportive of Al Qaeda and every other terrorist organization gunning for America.

You and Obama and others don't want to think things through. You just want to yap your traps.

I don't give a shit about religion of peace/religion of violence for the purposes of this conversation. My argument as to why burning Korans is stupid doesn't hinge on that.

You're missing my argument, and inventing one for me.

petegz28
09-12-2010, 12:59 AM
I'm amazed you're not a 5-star general by now with bulletproof strategies like that, that are not batshit crazy in any way.

You don't get it. Our troops are over there fighting and dying every day for a bullshit tactic. We don't want to decalre war on the country that is harboring and supporting terrorists because not everyone there is like that. Well fuck, I am sure there were a lot of Germans and Japanese that weren't supportive of the war effort on their country's behalf.

Instead we are supposedly working with the Afghan government to route out terrirst cells in their country while we knowingly and willfully give them sanctuary in Pakistan.

4 words for you,....WAR IS NOT NICE. Meaning winning the war with the lives of our troops suffering as little loss as possible is the goal. Not playing this BS politically correct we are here to help you crap. If Afhanistan can't keep the Taliban out that sucks for them when our bombers get called into action.

I would be curious to know how many troops have died because of our bullshit rules of engagment? And if these people we are supposed to be helping with our lives are going to turn on us because of a few people buring a Quran then fuck them. They have just become a target for destruction in my book.

Direckshun
09-12-2010, 01:00 AM
You don't get it. Our troops are over there fighting and dying every day for a bullshit tactic. We don't want to decalre war on the country that is harboring and supporting terrorists because not everyone there is like that. Well ****, I am sure there were a lot of Germans and Japanese that weren't supportive of the war effort on their country's behalf.

Instead we are supposedly working with the Afghan government to route out terrirst cells in their country while we knowingly and willfully give them sanctuary in Pakistan.

4 words for you,....WAR IS NOT NICE. Meaning winning the war with the lives of our troops suffering as little loss as possible is the goal. Not playing this BS politically correct we are here to help you crap. If Afhanistan can't keep the Taliban out that sucks for them when our bombers get called into action.

I would be curious to know how many troops have died because of our bullshit rules of engagment? And if these people we are supposed to be helping with our lives are going to turn on us because of a few people buring a Quran then **** them. They have just become a target for destruction in my book.

Okay, you just said that burning Korans makes our troops job easier. I need you to explain that to me still.

Because burning Korans doesn't change our military's rules of engagement. So we're still going to have the same RoE no matter what.

petegz28
09-12-2010, 01:01 AM
I don't give a shit about religion of peace/religion of violence for the purposes of this conversation. My argument as to why burning Korans is stupid doesn't hinge on that.

You're missing my argument, and inventing one for me.

No I am not. You are saying it is stupid because it puts our troops in more danger. Which is class A bullshit. It has everything to do with the claims that Islam is the religion of peace. In order for it to put our troops in more danger it smacks of the implication that those who were on our side would turn against us over 3 or 4 people burning a Quran. You want to try and have it both ways and it don't work that way.

petegz28
09-12-2010, 01:02 AM
I can't follow you, man. I thought we were talking about burning Korans.

No, you refuse to aknowledge that which is blatantly obvious.


So tell us, now that you claim I am off base, why do you think burning the Quran is stupid?

Direckshun
09-12-2010, 01:04 AM
No I am not. You are saying it is stupid because it puts our troops in more danger. Which is class A bullshit. It has everything to do with the claims that Islam is the religion of peace. In order for it to put our troops in more danger it smacks of the implication that those who were on our side would turn against us over 3 or 4 people burning a Quran. You want to try and have it both ways and it don't work that way.

No, you refuse to aknowledge that which is blatantly obvious.

So tell us, now that you claim I am off base, why do you think burning the Quran is stupid?

Again, I'm not talking about Islam being a religion of peace or not. That's not a part of my argument.

We are in a war of rhetoric just as we are a war of bullets. That's why burning Korans is unwise.

I'm going to restate my question just in case you missed my edit:

Okay, you just said that burning Korans makes our troops job easier. I need you to explain that to me still.

Because burning Korans doesn't change our military's rules of engagement. So we're still going to have the same RoE no matter what.

petegz28
09-12-2010, 01:07 AM
Again, I'm not talking about Islam being a religion of peace or not. That's not a part of my argument.

We are in a war of rhetoric just as we are a war of bullets. That's why burning Korans is unwise.

I'm going to restate my question just in case you missed my edit:

So why is burning the Quran unwise? Quit dodging the question because you know you won't like your answer. Answer the damn question.

Direckshun
09-12-2010, 01:09 AM
So why is burning the Quran unwise? Quit dodging the question because you know you won't like your answer. Answer the damn question.

We are in a war of rhetoric just as we are a war of bullets.

Burning Korans sends a message that we're not in your country to build a nation and make you (and us) (and everyone else) safe, it sends a message that we want to destroy your religion.

Direckshun
09-12-2010, 01:12 AM
By the way, you still haven't explained why burning Korans makes our job in the Middle East easier.

Because our rules of engagement will be exactly the same.

petegz28
09-12-2010, 01:15 AM
By the way, you still haven't explained why burning Korans makes our job in the Middle East easier.

Because our rules of engagement will be exactly the same.

That is because I didn't say that. You twisted my words into such a dumb question. The answer you seek has already been given to you. Read slower if you must. And you are assuming like a dolt that our rules of engagment would not change if the conditions on the ground did.

petegz28
09-12-2010, 01:17 AM
We are in a war of rhetoric just as we are a war of bullets.

Burning Korans sends a message that we're not in your country to build a nation and make you (and us) (and everyone else) safe, it sends a message that we want to destroy your religion.

So in other words the followers of the religion of peace will be easily chided into violence over 3-4 people?


That is the message you say it sends but can only be received that way if the people who think that are not really the peace lovers we keep hearing about from Obama.

And secondly, **** nation building.

And the only reason we are in a war of rhetoric is because people like you and Obama want it that way. Words don't win wars. If they did we would have a lot less dead people from war.

Direckshun
09-12-2010, 01:18 AM
And if you ask me this makes their job easier

If I know just about every one around me is the bad guy it makes my job easier

By the way, you still haven't explained why burning Korans makes our job in the Middle East easier.

That is because I didn't say that.

Go Chiefs.

Direckshun
09-12-2010, 01:20 AM
So in other words the followers of the religion of peace will be easily chided into violence over 3-4 people?

That is the message you say it sends but can only be received that way if the people who think that are not really the peace lovers we keep hearing about from Obama.

Radical followers, yes.

There's nothing wrong with trying to defuse the "War of Religions" rhetoric. Matter of fact, it's key to our success in what we're trying to do.

Burning Korans works against that. It says "we've come to destroy your religion."

Direckshun
09-12-2010, 01:21 AM
And the only reason we are in a war of rhetoric is because people like you and Obama want it that way.

I'm pretty sure the "battle for hearts and minds" stuff was the result of your guy, not mine.

petegz28
09-12-2010, 01:22 AM
Go Chiefs.

Good re-cap of you twisting my words around.

petegz28
09-12-2010, 01:24 AM
Radical followers, yes.

There's nothing wrong with trying to defuse the "War of Religions" rhetoric. Matter of fact, it's key to our success in what we're trying to do.

Burning Korans works against that. It says "we've come to destroy your religion."

That is politically correct, head up your ass bullshit. If the bin Laden's are going to use their religion as the basis of their war and the members of their religion are going to do nothing less than tolerate it then guess what, partner, you got a religous war on your hands no matter how much YOU may not want it to be.

It's kind of hard for me to sit here and by that this isn't a religous war when so many muslims get so bent out of shape about 3-4 people insulting their religion.

Direckshun
09-12-2010, 01:28 AM
Good re-cap of you twisting my words around.

Whatever. Let me ask you point blank:

Does burning Korans make our job in the Middle East easier?

petegz28
09-12-2010, 01:29 AM
Here is the scenario Direkshun wants to paint:

We get attacked under the guise of religion

We say, this isn't a religous war because Islam is the religion of peace

Muslim countries around the world do little if anything to prevent these people from operating in their country

A few dolts burn a Quran

Direkshun and others say that puts out troops in harm's way

Direkshum then says the whole "religion of peace" mantra we get shoved down our throats has nothing to do with what he is talking about

Direkshun then says we are in a war of rhetoric and insulting Islam does us no good

Direkshun runs in circles on the last 2 things Direkshun said

Direckshun
09-12-2010, 01:29 AM
That is politically correct, head up your ass bullshit. If the bin Laden's are going to use their religion as the basis of their war and the members of their religion are going to do nothing less than tolerate it then guess what, partner, you got a religous war on your hands no matter how much YOU may not want it to be.

It's kind of hard for me to sit here and by that this isn't a religous war when so many muslims get so bent out of shape about 3-4 people insulting their religion.

Do you want to eradicate Islam? Honest question. Yes or no answer, please.

petegz28
09-12-2010, 01:32 AM
Whatever. Let me ask you point blank:

Does burning Korans make our job in the Middle East easier?

That is a bullshit question.

To ask what you are trying to ask legitimately is to ask, "is 3-4 people burning the Quran going to make our job easier?"

And the answer I have given you already is:

If they are truly the religion of peace we keep hearing about then it shouldn't matter. And if it does incite more to become violent then it does nothing more than expose enemies we had that were in hiding. Thus making it easier for us to identify who is the bad guy and take them out.


See, as I said already, you don't think these things through. You, in your Obama way, just can't wait to start running your trap.

Direckshun
09-12-2010, 01:32 AM
Here is the scenario Direkshun wants to paint:

We get attacked under the guise of religion

We say, this isn't a religous war because Islam is the religion of peace

Muslim countries around the world do little if anything to prevent these people from operating in their country

A few dolts burn a Quran

Direkshun and others say that puts out troops in harm's way

Direkshum then says the whole "religion of peace" mantra we get shoved down our throats has nothing to do with what he is talking about

Direkshun then says we are in a war of rhetoric and insulting Islam does us no good

Direkshun runs in circles on the last 2 things Direkshun said

We get attacked by terrorists who rely on War of Religions rhetoric to recruit more terrorists.

We send two armies out to fight them on their home turf.

Some idiots want to burn Korans, amping up the War of Religions rhetoric that the enemy relies on.

Some other idiots (not naming names) think there's no problem amping up the War of Religions rhetoric.

Direckshun does.

Direckshun
09-12-2010, 01:34 AM
If they are truly the religion of peace we keep hearing about then it shouldn't matter. And if it does incite more to become violent then it does nothing more than expose enemies we had that were in hiding. Thus making it easier for us to identify who is the bad guy and take them out.

See right there, it sounds like you're saying burning Korans makes our wars easier.

petegz28
09-12-2010, 01:36 AM
Do you want to eradicate Islam? Honest question. Yes or no answer, please.

Do I want too? Not sure that is a fair question.

For one, I thinl Islam is labled falsely as a religion for one. But others say it is so I am outvoted on that motion.

Now the more pertinent question is do we need to eradicate Islam?

And the answer to that is simple, ask the muslims. If they choose to tolerate what we call terrorists and they call Jihadists undrer the guise of a religion then they might be asking for it on their own.

That being said I think there is a sect of Islam that does indeed need to be done away with. Preferrably in a peacefull manner.

Direckshun
09-12-2010, 01:37 AM
Do I want too? Not sure that is a fair question.

For one, I thinl Islam is labled falsely as a religion for one. But others say it is so I am outvoted on that motion.

Now the more pertinent question is do we need to eradicate Islam?

And the answer to that is simple, ask the muslims. If they choose to tolerate what we call terrorists and they call Jihadists undrer the guise of a religion then they might be asking for it on their own.

That being said I think there is a sect of Islam that does indeed need to be done away with. Preferrably in a peacefull manner.

So, you're not saying no.

petegz28
09-12-2010, 01:38 AM
See right there, it sounds like you're saying burning Korans makes our wars easier.

That's because you want it to say that. Even though it doesn't. It could be burning a Quran, making a joke about Allah, you name it. But if you know anything about war, which you obviously do not, the easier it is to identify your enemy the easier it is to take them out. If I know 4 out of 5 people are my enemy then it makes my job easier than if it were 2 out of 5.

petegz28
09-12-2010, 01:38 AM
So, you're not saying no.

JFC, do you read? Seriously? Or do you have these pre-conceived notions that you just spout off Obama style?

Direckshun
09-12-2010, 01:39 AM
If I know 4 out of 5 people are my enemy then it makes my job easier than if it were 2 out of 5.

Why? That would actually double the number of people shooting at you.

I would believe that would make your job harder.

Direckshun
09-12-2010, 01:39 AM
JFC, do you read? Seriously? Or do you have these pre-conceived notions that you just spout off Obama style?

Tell me you do not want to eradicate Islam.

petegz28
09-12-2010, 01:42 AM
Why? That would actually double the number of people shooting at you.

I would believe that would make your job harder.

Actually no it wouldn't. The number of people shooting at us is not a problem for our military currently. The problem we have is identifying who is the enemy and who isn't.

Fuck, Direkshun you are a moon and a half. We have conventional bombs that can take out a small city. If I know the majority of the people in a country are my enemy I just drop my bombs and be done with it. Perhaps you should spend some time talking to people who have actually been in Iraq and Afghanistan and have them explain to you the difficulty of fighting when you have no idea who your enemy is?

petegz28
09-12-2010, 01:43 AM
Tell me you do not want to eradicate Islam.

Go back and read what I posted. You are trying to play these stupid games. I answered your question. It probably wasn't the answer you wanted for your "gotca" question which has you all in a twist now.

Direckshun
09-12-2010, 01:50 AM
Actually no it wouldn't. The number of people shooting at us is not a problem for our military currently. The problem we have is identifying who is the enemy and who isn't.

Why are we having trouble identifying them? Because they are guerilla fighters who hide in the population.

And there's no reason to believe that introducing more guerilla fighters who hide in the population would make our job anything but much, much harder.

Direckshun
09-12-2010, 01:50 AM
Go back and read what I posted. You are trying to play these stupid games. I answered your question. It probably wasn't the answer you wanted for your "gotca" question which has you all in a twist now.

Here, I'll start: I, Direckshun, do not want to eradicate Islam.

Can you say the same thing?

petegz28
09-12-2010, 01:51 AM
Direkshun, let me give you .05 of free advice and then I am done playing your stupid games.

The only way you win anything by playing fair is when the other side doesn't cheat. If the other side cheats you will never win unless there is a referee. There is no referee in war.

Thus all this political correctness and refusing to aknowledge the religous aspect of the war our enemies choose to use is going to do nothing but string it out and get a lot of our kids killed for nothing. The problem we have with this war is we refuse to aknowledge the mind set of the people and the majority of the ME. They are constantly at war in that part of the world. This time they chose to go to war with us. And instead of kicking the ever-loving **** out of the ME we choose to play by their rules and it is getting us no where.

petegz28
09-12-2010, 01:52 AM
Here, I'll start: I, Direckshun, do not want to eradicate Islam.

Can you say the same thing?

For the 3rd time, I already answered this question. FUCKING READ!

petegz28
09-12-2010, 01:53 AM
Why are we having trouble identifying them? Because they are guerilla fighters who hide in the population.

And there's no reason to believe that introducing more guerilla fighters who hide in the population would make our job anything but much, much harder.

And lets do what you don't do. Lets think that through. If the majority of the population are fighters then I know the majority of the people I face are the threat and I attack accordingly by taking out the enemy en masse. You aren't very good with numbers, are you?

But I do forget you are trying to fight some perfect war. Our job would be easier if more of the population were enemies. There comes a point where the scales tip to massive assualt as opposed to putting up check points.

Direckshun
09-12-2010, 01:55 AM
Direkshun, let me give you .05 of free advice and then I am done playing your stupid games.

The only way you win anything by playing fair is when the other side doesn't cheat. If the other side cheats you will never win unless there is a referee. There is no referee in war.

Hey if I would win the war tomorrow by cheating, I'd be all over that shit.

What Terry Jones is arguing for doesn't amount to cheating, it amounts to defeating your cause.

Thus all this political correctness and refusing to aknowledge the religous aspect of the war our enemies choose to use is going to do nothing but string it out and get a lot of our kids killed for nothing. The problem we have with this war is we refuse to aknowledge the mind set of our people and the majority of the ME. They are constantly at war in that part of the world. This time they chose to go to war with us. And instead of kicking the ever-loving **** out of the ME we choose to play by their rules and it is getting us no where.

I don't think flying an American flag over Mecca would solve our problems there. You seem to believe it would.

Direckshun
09-12-2010, 01:56 AM
For the 3rd time, I already answered this question. ****ING READ!

It seems to me that you're in favor of eradicating Islam if its people can't or won't be able to respond and eradicate their own extremists themselves.

petegz28
09-12-2010, 01:57 AM
Hey if I would win the war tomorrow by cheating, I'd be all over that shit.

What Terry Jones is arguing for doesn't amount to cheating, it amounts to defeating your cause.



I don't think flying an American flag over Mecca would solve our problems there. You seem to believe it would.

Who said anything about flying a flag over Mecca? And you are full of shit about Terry Jones. Now had it been Terry Jones and 60%+ of our population you may have a point. But when it is Terry Jones and 3 others then you have a hard time telling me the "religion of peace" is going to get their panties in a wad if they are truly the religion of peace.

Direckshun
09-12-2010, 01:57 AM
If the majority of the population are fighters then I know the majority of the people I face are the threat and I attack accordingly by taking out the enemy en masse. You aren't very good with numbers, are you?

So basically you just want to shoot into a crowd and feel less guilty about it.

Our job would be easier if more of the population were enemies.

You're a dipshit, Pete.

Direckshun
09-12-2010, 01:59 AM
Who said anything about flying a flag over Mecca? And you are full of shit about Terry Jones. Now had it been Terry Jones and 60%+ of our population you may have a point. But when it is Terry Jones and 3 others then you have a hard time telling me the "religion of peace" is going to get their panties in a wad if they are truly the religion of peace.

I'll half agree with that. It was just Terry Jones and three others.

But the media blew the hell out of the story and it became a national firestorm. And when the spotlight is that bright, during a time of war in two Middle Eastern countries, I think you have to divert course.

The media was grossly irresponsible in giving him the platform it did.

petegz28
09-12-2010, 02:03 AM
It seems to me that you're in favor of eradicating Islam if its people can't or won't be able to respond and eradicate their own extremists themselves.

You are getting warmer. You obviously don't seem to value the lives of our troops as much as you claim with your rants about burning the Quran and it endangering our troops further.


I will make it as simple for you as I can. War is not nice. To win war is to blow shit up and kill people. Our goal is to win the war while bringing home as many of our troops as we can as safe and quick as possible. If a country can't control their own and it gets to the point that we are being attacked by those that can't be controlled then you know what? That's a tough break for them because I am not interested in our kids being killed while we play this game the Arabs seem to love to play. Does that mean innocent people are going to die? Yep. But there comes a time where you have to place value on the lives of our troops over the lives of others. It's cold, ruthless and mean. It sucks ass. I hate it. But that is the fact. I could not look someone's parents in the eye and tell them their child was killed in a war because we wanted to play nice and politcially correct and didn't want to take the combat zone off the face of the map so someone else who we "think" is innocent cand carry on with their lives.

petegz28
09-12-2010, 02:05 AM
I'll half agree with that. It was just Terry Jones and three others.

But the media blew the hell out of the story and it became a national firestorm. And when the spotlight is that bright, during a time of war in two Middle Eastern countries, I think you have to divert course.

The media was grossly irresponsible in giving him the platform it did.

Yea, they did. And your hero Obama chimed right on in with them. This is the same media that seems that in large along with our President support the building of the victory mosque because they have the Right to do so.

Yet when someone wants to exercise their rights and burn a Quran we are suddenly supposed to worry about the sensativities of those who more than obviously can give a flying fuck about ours.

petegz28
09-12-2010, 02:06 AM
So basically you just want to shoot into a crowd and feel less guilty about it.



You're a dipshit, Pete.

Dipshit my ass. IF more of the population were are enemy we could wipe the place off the face of the map and be home in time for Sunday football. This cops and robbers shit we are playing does nothing but get more troops killed.

Direckshun
09-12-2010, 02:07 AM
You are getting warmer. You obviously don't seem to value the lives of our troops as much as you claim with your rants about burning the Quran and it endangering our troops further.

I will make it as simple for you as I can. War is not nice. To win war is to blow shit up and kill people. Our goal is to win the war while bringing home as many of our troops as we can as safe and quick as possible. If a country can't control their own and it gets to the point that we are being attacked by those that can't be controlled then you know what? That's a tough break for them because I am not interested in our kids being killed while we play this game the Arabs seem to love to play. Does that mean innocent people are going to die? Yep. But there comes a time where you have to place value on the lives of our troops over the lives of others. It's cold, ruthless and mean. It sucks ass. I hate it. But that is the fact. I could not look someone's parents in the eye and tell them their child was killed in a war because we wanted to play nice and politcially correct and didn't want to take the combat zone off the face of the map so someone else who we "think" is innocent cand carry on with their lives.

That's all fine and dandy, but I'm asking you about the religion of Islam.

Because I believe your support for Terry Jones and 3 others isn't in the name of making the troops' job easier (not a sane person on earth will back you up on that), or in some interest of free speech.

I think you genuinely like Islam, and would prefer to see it eradicated. And the actions of a Terry Jones, with national media attention, expresses support for that.

Direckshun
09-12-2010, 02:08 AM
Yea, they did. And your hero Obama chimed right on in with them. This is the same media that seems that in large along with our President support the building of the victory mosque because they have the Right to do so.

Don't you want to stop the Mosque from being built, though?

Pro-freedom on anti-Muslim imagery, but anti-freedom on pro-Muslim imagery?

Direckshun
09-12-2010, 02:10 AM
Dipshit my ass. IF more of the population were are enemy we could wipe the place off the face of the map and be home in time for Sunday football. This cops and robbers shit we are playing does nothing but get more troops killed.

"Damn those innocents getting in the way! If only we could make them bad guys too, this would all be sooooo much easier!"

petegz28
09-12-2010, 02:12 AM
That's all fine and dandy, but I'm asking you about the religion of Islam.

Because I believe your support for Terry Jones and 3 others isn't in the name of making the troops' job easier (not a sane person on earth will back you up on that), or in some interest of free speech.

I think you genuinely like Islam, and would prefer to see it eradicated. And the actions of a Terry Jones, with national media attention, expresses support for that.

First off I have said multiple times on here that I think Jones and others could have got their message across in a more mature way.

Secondly as I have stated, if muslims are going to attack us under the guise of a religous basis and other muslims are going to tolerate it then taking out the religion is a matter of semantics. I am not interested in taking out a religion. I am interested in taking out the threat. If that threat is a religion then yes, it has to go. Again, do yourself a favor and step outside your western culture mindset. Their governments are theocracies. They govern via their religion. So it's hard to separate the two. Thus my stating that I do believe a "sect of Islam" needs to be done away with one way or the other.

Direckshun
09-12-2010, 02:14 AM
First off I have said multiple times on here that I think Jones and others could have got their message across in a more mature way.

So for all your bitching and moaning, you agree with me and Obama that they shouldn't burn Korans.

Noted.

Secondly as I have stated, if muslims are going to attack us under the guise of a religous basis and other muslims are going to tolerate it then taking out the religion is a matter of semantics. I am not interested in taking out a religion. I am interested in taking out the threat. If that threat is a religion then yes, it has to go.

Genius.

Forgive me if I don't take you seriously as a cultural psychologist of 1 billion people you'd prefer to eradicate in the name of national security.

petegz28
09-12-2010, 02:18 AM
"Damn those innocents getting in the way! If only we could make them bad guys too, this would all be sooooo much easier!"

No, it's damn those innocents for sitting by idle and tolerating this shit going on in their country. The Afghans did nothing to stop the Taliban, or very few of them did. The Taliban was used as safe harbor for terrorists to plan and launch attacks on our country.

Again, you think there weren't innocent Germans and Japanese and Italians? Seriously? It's a fact of war that innocent people are going to die. It's a shitty fact but a fact nonetheless. And when it comes to more of our troops dying to eradicate a threat inside a country so the innocenst can sit on their hands and do nothing then I don't feel maybe as bad as I should if they get taken out in the process.

Their comes a point where these so-called innocents have to make a decision in my book. Either get off your ass and hop on the train we are driving in or get ran over by the train. To just sit back while these organizations and let us be honest, governments support and perpetuate this shit really is their own fault. And if they choose to live that way, fine. But when their tolerance goes outside of their country in the form of attacks on our counrty they fuck em'. You don't want to get blown up? Should have thought about that while you sat around and let these people take over your country.

petegz28
09-12-2010, 02:20 AM
So for all your bitching and moaning, you agree with me and Obama that they shouldn't burn Korans.

Noted.



Genius.

Forgive me if I don't take you seriously as a cultural psychologist of 1 billion people you'd prefer to eradicate in the name of national security.

Shouldn't? Never said that. I said I think there were better ways to get their message across. Don't go patting yourself on the back so quickly.

Dude if 1 billion people were a threat I'd be all for taking out 1 billion people. It really has little to do with their religion. They are the ones that choose to fight this fight in the name of their religion, not me. But a threat is a threat and a threat must be dealt with.

Direckshun
09-12-2010, 02:22 AM
Shouldn't? Never said that. I said I think there were better ways to get their message across. Don't go patting yourself on the back so quickly.

Dude if 1 billion people were a threat I'd be all for taking out 1 billion people. It really has little to do with their religion. They are the ones that choose to fight this fight in the name of their religion, not me. But a threat is a threat and a threat must be dealt with.

So you'd be cool with taking out a billion people because we lost 3,000.

Direckshun
09-12-2010, 02:23 AM
No, it's damn those innocents for sitting by idle and tolerating this shit going on in their country. The Afghans did nothing to stop the Taliban, or very few of them did. The Taliban was used as safe harbor for terrorists to plan and launch attacks on our country.

Again, you think there weren't innocent Germans and Japanese and Italians? Seriously? It's a fact of war that innocent people are going to die. It's a shitty fact but a fact nonetheless. And when it comes to more of our troops dying to eradicate a threat inside a country so the innocenst can sit on their hands and do nothing then I don't feel maybe as bad as I should if they get taken out in the process.

Their comes a point where these so-called innocents have to make a decision in my book. Either get off your ass and hop on the train we are driving in or get ran over by the train. To just sit back while these organizations and let us be honest, governments support and perpetuate this shit really is their own fault. And if they choose to live that way, fine. But when their tolerance goes outside of their country in the form of attacks on our counrty they **** em'. You don't want to get blown up? Should have thought about that while you sat around and let these people take over your country.

You're a dipshit, Pete.

petegz28
09-12-2010, 02:27 AM
So you'd be cool with taking out a billion people because we lost 3,000.

If that is what it took. I don't know where you and others get off with this whole, we only lost 3,000 people so we shouldn't take out x amount of people in return.

That's horseshit. And let me use a bit of your logic, those were 3,000 innocent people.

Now back to my logic. I don't care how many people were killed, were were attacked. War was declared on us. So our goal is to eliminate the threat and win the war. If 1 billion people were the threat and we could remove the threat by taking out 500 million or better yet, 5, then great. I don't put this chalk board mentality some of you use in the column of sane or logical. You win wars by forcing submission. It's that simple. What it takes to gain said submission is a variable that cannot be pre-calculated.

petegz28
09-12-2010, 02:28 AM
You're a dipshit, Pete.

Yea you can call me a dipshit all you want. The fact is had we fought this war my way our troops would have been home years ago and a lot more of them 6 ft up instead of 6 ft down.

Direckshun
09-12-2010, 02:28 AM
If that is what it took. I don't know where you and others get off with this whole, we only lost 3,000 people so we shouldn't take out x amount of people in return.

That's horseshit. And let me use a bit of your logic, those were 3,000 innocent people.

How many innocents do you think we'd kill if we took your route and killed a billion people?

Direckshun
09-12-2010, 02:29 AM
Yea you can call me a dipshit all you want. The fact is had we fought this war my way our troops would have been home years ago and a lot more of them 6 ft up instead of 6 ft down.

We'd also be responsible for hundreds of millions of innocent lives, and have ethnically cleansed the earth of Muslims.

petegz28
09-12-2010, 02:34 AM
How many innocents do you think we'd kill if we took your route and killed a billion people?

Not really sure? We can't answer that because we don't know how many are innocent. You just said "if 1 billion people were the threat".

And the fact of the matter is, Direkshun, I don't rightly care. That is not to say I would just go bombing hospitals and schools. But we were attacked. That is the fact. Innocent lives on my end take precedence over innocent lives on their end. The lives of our troops take precedence over innocent lives on their end when it is forced into that situation. We didn't start this war. In fact we helped these same fuckers keep Afghanistan from becoming the Southern USSR. We kept the oil in Saudi Arabia from becoming the property of Sadaam Hussein. We dump billions of our $'s into their economies every year. And in the meantime we play these bullshit games with countries like Saudi, Syria, Lebannon and Pakistan where we pretend they are not responsible for the majority of Arab terrorism.

Fuck that! Not when it crosses their borders into ours.

petegz28
09-12-2010, 02:38 AM
We'd also be responsible for hundreds of millions of innocent lives, and have ethnically cleansed the earth of Muslims.

Highly, very highly unlikely. They would give up and get their shit together long before anyone was ethnically cleansed. BTW, muslim is not an ethnicity, it's is a member of a religion.


And to that note look at what Janet Reno did down in Waco. She saw it as taking out a threat, religion had nothing to do with it. Or at least that is what they claim. Of course they called it a cult. So lets just play along their lines and say, as I have said and you keep twisting it around, we have to take out a sect or a particular cult of Islam.

Direckshun
09-12-2010, 02:38 AM
Not really sure? We can't answer that because we don't know how many are innocent. You just said "if 1 billion people were the threat".

I'd wager it would be hundreds of millions.

Direckshun
09-12-2010, 02:39 AM
Highly, very highly unlikely. They would give up and get their shit together long before anyone was ethnically cleansed.

I'm willing to bet you are not a student of psychology.

prhom
09-12-2010, 02:40 AM
We'd also be responsible for hundreds of millions of innocent lives, and have ethnically cleansed the earth of Muslims.

Islam is a choice, not an ethic group.

petegz28
09-12-2010, 02:42 AM
I'm willing to bet you are not a student of psychology.

And I'm willing to bet you keep throwing out these idiotic strawman arguments that make little if any sense to begin with.

But this just proves my point that people such as yourself refuse to aknowledge the realities for what they are. You want to live in this world of pretend. You want to fight politically correct wars. You want to chalk board the score so winning isn't important so much as the body count being equal on both sides.

It's fucking insane. Did we have to cleanse the world of Japanese, Germans and Italians to win WWII? Last time I checked the answer was no.

petegz28
09-12-2010, 02:44 AM
In fact, Direkshun, Professor of Psychology, last time I checked we carpet bombed the living **** out of Germany and Italy and nuked Japan twice. Last time I checked all 3 countries still exist and are now our allies. And I am willing to bet there were millions who did not support the war and would be what we would call "innocents" and many of said innocents who died in all of that.

Direckshun
09-12-2010, 02:47 AM
Islam is a choice, not an ethic group.

It's a culture.

Direckshun
09-12-2010, 02:49 AM
And I'm willing to bet you keep throwing out these idiotic strawman arguments that make little if any sense to begin with.

But this just proves my point that people such as yourself refuse to aknowledge the realities for what they are. You want to live in this world of pretend. You want to fight politically correct wars. You want to chalk board the score so winning isn't important so much as the body count being equal on both sides.

It's ****ing insane. Did we have to cleanse the world of Japanese, Germans and Italians to win WWII? Last time I checked the answer was no.

In fact, Direkshun, Professor of Psychology, last time I checked we carpet bombed the living **** out of Germany and Italy and nuked Japan twice. Last time I checked all 3 countries still exist and are now our allies. And I am willing to bet there were millions who did not support the war and would be what we would call "innocents" and many of said innocents who died in all of that.

Well I'm happy to hear you don't think we should exterminate all Muslims, at least.

petegz28
09-12-2010, 02:49 AM
It's a culture.

I thought it was a religion? Make up your fucking mind. And no, I would not call it a culture. It is a religion and people choose to belong to it. Either way it is not an ethnicity as you keep claiming.

Direckshun
09-12-2010, 02:50 AM
I thought it was a religion? Make up your ****ing mind.

It is a religion. It's not mutually exclusive.

prhom
09-12-2010, 03:08 AM
It's a culture.

Which is still a choice that is made by the participant. All Americans are grouped together regardless of the obvious fact that there are many different cultures represented here. It's like the old adage "if you aren't with us you're against us". Though it was the Frenchman Voltaire that said "Though I disagree with what you say, I will defend to the death your right to say it", it's something we as Americans really must back up. The argument that this will open us up to more attacks abroad and domestically is really missing the point. The moment that we take our freedom for granted is the moment in which it slips away.

Direckshun
09-12-2010, 03:10 AM
Which is still a choice that is made by the participant.

In theory, yes. But we both know that's not the case. Especially if you're a woman.

You're born in the culture, you're raised in the culture. Even though you retain full autonomy (unless you're a woman), there's about a 99% you're going to be indoctrinated in that culture in the Middle East. Even in its most modern countries.

prhom
09-12-2010, 03:17 AM
Why aren't we concerned about offending Hindus because we slaughter millions of cows each year? Why aren't exterminators the target of suicide bombings because they kill millions of insects, the act of which is an affront to Buddhists?

Count Alex's Losses
09-12-2010, 03:19 AM
When I said building a mosque near ground zero would be a bad idea, this is the kind of shit I am talking about.

There are idiots in this country. That mosque would only be a target for them.

Direckshun
09-12-2010, 03:24 AM
Why aren't we concerned about offending Hindus because we slaughter millions of cows each year? Why aren't exterminators the target of suicide bombings because they kill millions of insects, the act of which is an affront to Buddhists?

Because it's different those parts of the world haven't had a wretched historical record of war with us. The Middle East and Africa are generally more desperate and wartorn and thus far more prone to radicalism.

And because not all cultures are stimulated and invested in the same things in the same ways.

prhom
09-12-2010, 03:52 AM
Because it's different those parts of the world haven't had a wretched historical record of war with us. The Middle East and Africa are generally more desperate and wartorn and thus far more prone to radicalism.

And because not all cultures are stimulated and invested in the same things in the same ways.

THose are reasons that nothing happens to us as retribution for our indifference to their beliefs. No one in this country cares because those cultures/religions aren't going to do anything to us in retaliation.

My point in all of this is pretty simple. Muslims always say that Islam is a peaceful religion that doesn't condone violence. Yet, we are concerned about the effects that a symbolic act (burning the Koran) will have on our country and citizens. We are only concerned becaused it could result in American deaths, not because of how it makes Muslims feel. If we did, then we would also chastize people for killing cows and bugs due to how it makes other religious groups feel. The entire dialogue over this issue is full of these inconsistencies.

The point over culture vs choice relates to whether or not non-radical Muslims are complicit in the actions of their radical bretheren. If the "radical" actions taken by some Muslims are not part of the doctrine, then why don't the non-radical Muslims take an active role in stopping the "radicals" from doing things that endanger entire populations of Muslims. In other words, if you don't want your country to become the next Afghanistan then don't let "radicals" operate there. If their actions are truly against you're beliefs then it should be worthy of going to war and dying for. After all, jihad is a part of the Muslim faith is it not? Shouldn't jihad against radical Islam be something that is okay to keep the faith pure? Muslims have no problem stoning people who violate sharia law, why not go after the "radicals" with equal zeal?

Direckshun
09-12-2010, 03:58 AM
THose are reasons that nothing happens to us as retribution for our indifference to their beliefs. No one in this country cares because those cultures/religions aren't going to do anything to us in retaliation.

My point in all of this is pretty simple. Muslims always say that Islam is a peaceful religion that doesn't condone violence. Yet, we are concerned about the effects that a symbolic act (burning the Koran) will have on our country and citizens. We are only concerned becaused it could result in American deaths, not because of how it makes Muslims feel. If we did, then we would also chastize people for killing cows and bugs due to how it makes other religious groups feel. The entire dialogue over this issue is full of these inconsistencies.

The point over culture vs choice relates to whether or not non-radical Muslims are complicit in the actions of their radical bretheren. If the "radical" actions taken by some Muslims are not part of the doctrine, then why don't the non-radical Muslims take an active role in stopping the "radicals" from doing things that endanger entire populations of Muslims. In other words, if you don't want your country to become the next Afghanistan then don't let "radicals" operate there. If their actions are truly against you're beliefs then it should be worthy of going to war and dying for. After all, jihad is a part of the Muslim faith is it not? Shouldn't jihad against radical Islam be something that is okay to keep the faith pure? Muslims have no problem stoning people who violate sharia law, why not go after the "radicals" with equal zeal?

Well despite the last sentence there where you try to equate moderates with radicals, this is a fair concern. One that I've addressed more than a few times on this site.

With few exceptions across the Middle East, you should take note that there isn't a very large moderate population there right now. And it's largely because the region is wartorn, systematically impoverished, unemployed, and desperate. And desperation breeds extremism.

Therefore, radical beliefs are far more common across the Middle East than we'd like to believe. And as a result, demagogues have an inside track across the entire region when it comes to ascending to power.

There are a few countries with large moderate populations in the Middle East, but they are either (a.) very wealthy like Kuwait, or (b.) fighting a brutal government, like Iran.

BigMeatballDave
09-12-2010, 04:30 AM
My religion is better than your religion. Fucking attention whores!

prhom
09-12-2010, 04:39 AM
Well despite the last sentence there where you try to equate moderates with radicals, this is a fair concern. One that I've addressed more than a few times on this site.

With few exceptions across the Middle East, you should take note that there isn't a very large moderate population there right now. And it's largely because the region is wartorn, systematically impoverished, unemployed, and desperate. And desperation breeds extremism.

Therefore, radical beliefs are far more common across the Middle East than we'd like to believe. And as a result, demagogues have an inside track across the entire region when it comes to ascending to power.

There are a few countries with large moderate populations in the Middle East, but they are either (a.) very wealthy like Kuwait, or (b.) fighting a brutal government, like Iran.

So just how incompatible are radical viewpoints with moderate viewpoints? The reason I ask this is that it seems like a common excuse for violent acts is that they are perpetuated by radical extremists, as if these radicals crossed a line where they were no longer part of the Islamic community. I think a lot of the negative attitude of Americans towards Muslims stems from this distinction. Whenever anything bad happens, the radicals are to blame. If people are killed as the result of military activity, then they become innocents.

By the way, once radical beliefs become the norm, they cease to become radical. Then it becomes subjective and depends on whether you see things from the "radical" side or the moderate side. You can't call it radical Islam if most of the Muslims in the middle east are "radicals" compared to the rest of the world. For them it is simply Islam, not a radicalized version of it. It's not like they'll go back to being "normal" Muslims if request X is granted and policy Y is enacted, is it?

Mile High Mania
09-12-2010, 05:41 AM
You'd like this thread (http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=195353&highlight=mark+levin), btw. :)



Exactly right.

That's because his rhetoric (and honestly, the rhetoric of the entire talk radio sphere) stokes an insanity that you see pour through talk radio every day. The folks that post on his facebook page are loyal listeners. They are the equivalent of Rush Limbaugh's "dittoheads."

Here's the deal ... I listen to Hannity and Levin every day, I know many others that do as well. None of us are burning books or going to extremes to get our points made.

Talk radio isn't prompting these people to do crazy things, but the left sure wants to paint that picture. There are crazy people out there (both sides) that will do crazy things with or without talk radio.

DenverChief
09-12-2010, 05:49 AM
The two men said they burned the books to defend the United States Constitution


Could any statement be more retarded?

It is the soldier not the minister that has given us the freedom of religion
It is the soldier not the reporter that has given us freedom of the press
It is the soldier not the lawyer who has given us right to a fair trial
It is the soldier not the politician who has given us the right to vote
IT IS THE SOLDIER WHO SALUTES THE FLAG,
AND WHO'S COFFIN IS DRAPED IN THE FLAG
WHO ALLOWS THE PROTESTER TO BURN THE FLAG

Or the bible or

I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it. --Voltaire

Pioli Zombie
09-12-2010, 06:21 AM
Doesn't Jesus have better things for Christians to do than burn Korans? Like say...I don't know...spread the Gospel maybe??
I can just him saying to the Disciples "My final command to you is this. Publicly burn the scripture of other faiths. Talk about politics all the time. In this way they will know me"

VAChief
09-12-2010, 06:52 AM
When you get in the gutter with scum you gain nothing but your own foul stench. Bin Laden, if he is still living, is smiling at how easily the weak minded are manipulated no matter where they live.

jjjayb
09-12-2010, 09:28 AM
N

Please find a single link where any Koran burners have been arrested, and I'll change my tune.

Find me a single link where the president of our country got on tv and asked Muslims not to burn our flag or behead a Christian? You won't. But he did for some reason take time out of his day to chastise some country bumpkin for saying he was going to burn a Koran.

I still don't get how this is even news. Christians continue to be beheaded, their churches continue to be burned to the ground, and nary a peep. Yet some backwoods local yocal wants to burn a Koran and it's a national frigging crisis? Give me a break. Typical liberal scardey cat bullshit. Our liberal leaders have gone from being the kids being picked on in school every day to being our leaders. Crazy times indeed.

Direckshun
09-12-2010, 10:26 AM
So just how incompatible are radical viewpoints with moderate viewpoints? The reason I ask this is that it seems like a common excuse for violent acts is that they are perpetuated by radical extremists, as if these radicals crossed a line where they were no longer part of the Islamic community. I think a lot of the negative attitude of Americans towards Muslims stems from this distinction. Whenever anything bad happens, the radicals are to blame. If people are killed as the result of military activity, then they become innocents.

You're oversimplifying. Because there are tons of peaceful radicals. There are tons of innocent radicals. We have plenty of them here in the US.

Just because your average, impoverished, unemployed family man in the Middle East probably has radical views doesn't mean he's going to become a terrorist. Only in the most rarest of circumstances is that true.

Someone who harbors these radical views and is desperate enough to actually engage in terrorism are almost definitively on the fringe of the Islamic community. Just like the folks that flip out and engage in domestic terrorism here.

By the way, once radical beliefs become the norm, they cease to become radical.

No, I don't think they do.

For instance, believing the Jews are evil and need to be exterminated was held by most Germans during the 1930s. That view is radical no matter how many people hold it.

Direckshun
09-12-2010, 10:30 AM
Here's the deal ... I listen to Hannity and Levin every day, I know many others that do as well. None of us are burning books or going to extremes to get our points made.

Actually, that's wrong. Check out the OP and a few of the first posts in this thread.

People are burning books to get their points of anti-Muslim hatred made.

Talk radio isn't prompting these people to do crazy things, but the left sure wants to paint that picture. There are crazy people out there (both sides) that will do crazy things with or without talk radio.

The issue though, and I'm going the rounds with blaise on this in the Sharron Angle thread, is that talk radio stokes the flames of hate. When you have such a large platform from which untold influence flows, you legitimize the countless forms of hate that is spewed every day from the radio outlet.

It does incite violence. From crazy people, yes. But nonetheless, to pretend they have no influence requires a stronger suspension of disbelief than I'm capable of.

Direckshun
09-12-2010, 10:32 AM
Doesn't Jesus have better things for Christians to do than burn Korans? Like say...I don't know...spread the Gospel maybe??
I can just him saying to the Disciples "My final command to you is this. Publicly burn the scripture of other faiths. Talk about politics all the time. In this way they will know me"

I think it's fair to say these are extremist Christians. They know little more than hate.

Direckshun
09-12-2010, 10:33 AM
Find me a single link where the president of our country got on tv and asked Muslims not to burn our flag or behead a Christian? You won't. But he did for some reason take time out of his day to chastise some country bumpkin for saying he was going to burn a Koran.

I still don't get how this is even news. Christians continue to be beheaded, their churches continue to be burned to the ground, and nary a peep. Yet some backwoods local yocal wants to burn a Koran and it's a national frigging crisis? Give me a break. Typical liberal scardey cat bullshit. Our liberal leaders have gone from being the kids being picked on in school every day to being our leaders. Crazy times indeed.

It's not news, but that's not Obama's fault. He's got a military to watch out for in the Middle East, and the media is propping up the actions of a nutcase in rural Florida as some sort of national referendum on Islam.

The President almost had to issue a statement on it, since it had become such a ridiculous national story.

chiefsnorth
09-12-2010, 11:19 AM
Would any Christian care if some goatherded burned a Bible? Beyond some kind of sense of annoyance probably not. So why are we afraid of repercussions for this? Well, it's simple. By and large these people are uneducated savages living like it's still the 600s. So anytime Someone tries to blast someone in the west for doing this, remember, they are far more civil than the people over in the middle east sawing people's heads off and executing women for adultery. How about some perspective on the "religion of peace"

petegz28
09-12-2010, 11:23 AM
It's not news, but that's not Obama's fault. He's got a military to watch out for in the Middle East, and the media is propping up the actions of a nutcase in rural Florida as some sort of national referendum on Islam.

The President almost had to issue a statement on it, since it had become such a ridiculous national story.

No he didn't. He gave credibility to the story by doing so. Instead of just making an off-hand comment like "people are going to do what they are going to do but I think it is unhelpful" is about as far as he should have gone.

Direckshun
09-12-2010, 11:57 AM
Would any Christian care if some goatherded burned a Bible? Beyond some kind of sense of annoyance probably not. So why are we afraid of repercussions for this? Well, it's simple. By and large these people are uneducated savages living like it's still the 600s. So anytime Someone tries to blast someone in the west for doing this, remember, they are far more civil than the people over in the middle east sawing people's heads off and executing women for adultery. How about some perspective on the "religion of peace"

Spoken like a true expert on everything.

Direckshun
09-12-2010, 11:57 AM
No he didn't. He gave credibility to the story by doing so. Instead of just making an off-hand comment like "people are going to do what they are going to do but I think it is unhelpful" is about as far as he should have gone.

That's fair, but I disagree.

Dallas Chief
09-12-2010, 02:20 PM
Actually, that's wrong. Check out the OP and a few of the first posts in this thread.

People are burning books to get their points of anti-Muslim hatred made.



The issue though, and I'm going the rounds with blaise on this in the Sharron Angle thread, is that talk radio stokes the flames of hate. When you have such a large platform from which untold influence flows, you legitimize the countless forms of hate that is spewed every day from the radio outlet.

It does incite violence. From crazy people, yes. But nonetheless, to pretend they have no influence requires a stronger suspension of disbelief than I'm capable of.

Utter and complete BS. Once again you stating something that isn't a fact over and over again doesn't make it true. If it stokes anything it stokes the flames of the left's hatred for any dissenting point of view.

MadMax
09-12-2010, 02:30 PM
Would any Christian care if some goatherded burned a Bible? Beyond some kind of sense of annoyance probably not. So why are we afraid of repercussions for this? Well, it's simple. By and large these people are uneducated savages living like it's still the 600s. So anytime Someone tries to blast someone in the west for doing this, remember, they are far more civil than the people over in the middle east sawing people's heads off and executing women for adultery. How about some perspective on the "religion of peace"




No and I say burn that POS anytime.. I find it humerus. They like to get themselves all tizzied up it would be a good place to start popping heads..

Aparsons0904
09-12-2010, 04:10 PM
2 Local (TEN) Men Burn Quran Despite Protest

SPRINGFIELD, Tenn. -- Despite multiple pleas to reconsider, two local religious leaders held a private Quran burning in a Springfield backyard Saturday afternoon.

The Rev. Bob Old and the Rev. Danny Allen both had different reasons for burning the Muslim holy book, but they said it had nothing to do with whether or not a mosque was built near ground zero.

"It's about faith, it's about love, but you have to have the right book behind you. This is a book of hate, not a book of love," said Old while holding up a Quran.

The two men said they burned the books to defend the United States Constitution and the American people. It's a move that has been denounced by Christian groups, politicians and even some of their family members.

Three women who have loved ones fighting abroad stood outside of Old's home holding up signs to protest the burnings.

"Somebody's got to stand up for the troops," said Ashley Parsons.

Parsons' husband is fighting in Afghanistan. This is his fifth tour of duty. She said she thinks it is shameful someone would take the anniversary of a national tragedy and do something that both the president and military leaders have said could endanger troops fighting abroad.

"I was livid," Parsons said. " I was very angry. I was very angry, and I'm scared. I'm scared for my husband. I'm scared for my friends and everybody who protects us."




So the day after my protest I decided to google my name and there's equal amounts of HATE as there are of appreciation. Look, political and religious differences aside I did this for my husband, no more, no less, he puts on the uniform to protect all of our freedoms including their freedom to do this, but when we, here in the states, do something that will put THEM (the soldiers) in further jeopardy, I can't stomach it quietly...

MadMax
09-12-2010, 04:27 PM
Burn baby burn!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Who gives a fuck?

petegz28
09-12-2010, 06:37 PM
So the day after my protest I decided to google my name and there's equal amounts of HATE as there are of appreciation. Look, political and religious differences aside I did this for my husband, no more, no less, he puts on the uniform to protect all of our freedoms including their freedom to do this, but when we, here in the states, do something that will put THEM (the soldiers) in further jeopardy, I can't stomach it quietly...

If 2 guys burning a Quran is going to put your husband into further jeopardy and threat from the members of the "relgion of peace" then I am sorry to say that my take is they were already in said jeopardy. If you get my meaning.

chiefzilla1501
09-12-2010, 07:11 PM
What the fuck is wrong with some people.

By all means, make a political statement. I hope this guy sleeps well at night knowing that his 15 seconds of fame (if even that) may potentially endanger the lives of our troops and maybe even our civilians.

The other good news is that hopefully this is finally the trigger the GOP needed to start distancing themselves from the Tea Party.

petegz28
09-12-2010, 07:14 PM
What the **** is wrong with some people.

By all means, make a political statement. I hope this guy sleeps well at night knowing that his 15 seconds of fame (if even that) may potentially endanger the lives of our troops and maybe even our civilians.

The other good news is that hopefully this is finally the trigger the GOP needed to start distancing themselves from the Tea Party.

Your post is borderline idiotic. This has absolutely nothing to do with the tea party. And in case you have been in the dark the last few years, our troops are already in jeopardy. Which is why they call it a war zone. Who'd a thunk it?

BucEyedPea
09-12-2010, 07:52 PM
"If they can burn American flags, I can burn the Koran," shouted the unidentified man. "America should never be afraid to give their opinion."

How 'bout just burning one of their flags instead?

BucEyedPea
09-12-2010, 07:53 PM
What the **** is wrong with some people.

By all means, make a political statement. I hope this guy sleeps well at night knowing that his 15 seconds of fame (if even that) may potentially endanger the lives of our troops and maybe even our civilians.

The other good news is that hopefully this is finally the trigger the GOP needed to start distancing themselves from the Tea Party.

I'm a Tea Partier and I don't endorse it. Nor does Ron Paul. WTF are you drinking?

petegz28
09-12-2010, 08:03 PM
How 'bout just burning one of their flags instead?

Makes me no difference. If that had been the case the same things would have been said. Obama would have come out saying we aren't at war with insert country here.

chiefzilla1501
09-12-2010, 08:19 PM
I'm a Tea Partier and I don't endorse it. Nor does Ron Paul. WTF are you drinking?

As far as I'm concerned, the Tea Party movement as a whole as well as the GOP have been wishy-washy about publicly criticizing these rogue factions. There have been plenty of public instances of racist comments and despicable behaviors.

I know it's not representative of your beliefs or the overall tea party beliefs, but you don't think that moderates' opinion of the tea party is a bunch of elitist racists? Or that liberals aren't going to feast on something like this?

You don't have to endorse something for people to get a bad impression of what they do.

Brock
09-12-2010, 08:23 PM
If you have a problem with this, you should also have a problem with anyone publicly denouncing Islam, saying it's a fake religion, etc. Freedom of speech is a bitch, get over it.

chiefzilla1501
09-12-2010, 08:23 PM
Your post is borderline idiotic. This has absolutely nothing to do with the tea party. And in case you have been in the dark the last few years, our troops are already in jeopardy. Which is why they call it a war zone. Who'd a thunk it?

Borderline idiotic? Your post is completely naive. You don't think that any small video of Americans burning the Quran isn't going to be posted on every single Muslim propoganda machine? Do you really think that it's going to be spun as some small rogue movement that isn't representative of how all Americans think?

Extremists have been waiting for us to do something stupid like this. If my post is so idiotic, then why were Obama, Clinton, Robert Gates, the Pope, and diplomats from all over the world intervening?

BucEyedPea
09-12-2010, 09:02 PM
As far as I'm concerned, the Tea Party movement as a whole as well as the GOP have been wishy-washy about publicly criticizing these rogue factions. There have been plenty of public instances of racist comments and despicable behaviors.
Rogue factions? Like the plants or instigators sent in by the opposition who made some of those signs? Or the selective media reporting on the few.

Yuh uh huh!

I know it's not representative of your beliefs or the overall tea party beliefs, but you don't think that moderates' opinion of the tea party is a bunch of elitist racists?

Well if you've been paying attention, polls have shown more Indies think the Tea Party positions are closer to their own. Particularly when compared to what's in office right now.

Or that liberals aren't going to feast on something like this?
Where have you been? They have been! But I think some of it's planned.

You don't have to endorse something for people to get a bad impression of what they do.
If you think that you've allowed yourself to be played.

I think you should use the search here and check-out past threads on this.
Race card is 'bout the only thing they've got.

petegz28
09-12-2010, 09:16 PM
Borderline idiotic? Your post is completely naive. You don't think that any small video of Americans burning the Quran isn't going to be posted on every single Muslim propoganda machine? Do you really think that it's going to be spun as some small rogue movement that isn't representative of how all Americans think?

Extremists have been waiting for us to do something stupid like this. If my post is so idiotic, then why were Obama, Clinton, Robert Gates, the Pope, and diplomats from all over the world intervening?

Who gives a **** if it is posted? If they are members of the "religion of peace" it won't matter. If they get pissed off then they are who we thought they were.

And those people are intervening because they know they bullshit the shovel is just that. As they stand there saying this is the religion of peace they can't believe their own lie.

BucEyedPea
09-12-2010, 09:18 PM
Makes me no difference. If that had been the case the same things would have been said. Obama would have come out saying we aren't at war with insert country here.

I dunno. I think the Koran being burned is more inflammatory than a flag representing borders drawn by European armies.

petegz28
09-12-2010, 09:19 PM
I dunno. I think the Koran being burned is more inflammatory than a flag representing borders drawn by European armies.

:facepalm:

chiefzilla1501
09-12-2010, 09:23 PM
Rogue factions? Like the plants or instigators sent in by the opposition who made some of those signs? Or the selective media reporting on the few.

Yuh uh huh!
Complete naivete. I'm sorry, but you can't tell me that you put that many extreme conservatives in one room especially with a Black President and with immigration and the mosque as hotbed issues and not hear racist/bigoted comments? You know where the party stands on these issues and how strongly to one side the party leans. I'm not saying the party is racist/bigoted. I'm saying it's completely naive to believe that there aren't racist factions who will do/say really stupid shit.

Well if you've been paying attention, polls have shown more Indies think the Tea Party positions are closer to their own. Particularly when compared to what's in office right now.
Yes. In terms of fiscal conservatism, which is something I fundamentally agree with. But if tea partiers actually think that indies are starting to warm up to the tea party movement, then they are naive too. I'm a moderate swing voter myself. I am fiscally conservative, socially slightly liberal and I would guess that most people would agree with that. And while people like me agree with their fiscal stance because we fundamentally disagree with this administration's, sorry, I will never, ever support the Tea Party's social agenda. Shame, because the GOP could run away with this election if Sarah Palin and Glenn Beck weren't essentially running this party.


Where have you been? They have been! But I think some of it's planned.


If you think that you've allowed yourself to be played.

I think you should use the search here and check-out past threads on this.
Race card is 'bout the only thing they've got.
I'm not allowing myself to be played, dude. I am a moderate-conservative. I think you're allowing yourself to be played if you don't truly believe that morons are damaging the credibility of a movement that has a lot of elements that make sense.

Aparsons0904
09-12-2010, 09:24 PM
Borderline idiotic? Your post is completely naive. You don't think that any small video of Americans burning the Quran isn't going to be posted on every single Muslim propoganda machine? Do you really think that it's going to be spun as some small rogue movement that isn't representative of how all Americans think?

Extremists have been waiting for us to do something stupid like this. If my post is so idiotic, then why were Obama, Clinton, Robert Gates, the Pope, and diplomats from all over the world intervening?

There is a reason they are intervening, I am not naive, and for whoever said up there to think my husband wasn't indanger, I'll tell you the same thing I told Reuters yesterday.... I AM NOT STUPID I know they're already in danger, it's like they're standing a pile of HOT COALS, and people like this are on the edge stoking it for a fire... yea sure they're at risk of being burned by coals but if we stir it and create fire it increases the risk. So many bases and FOBs (Forward Operations Base for those who don't know) are in BFE over there, and so many of them were okay for the most part, i mean mortors, and occassional gun fire, but NOW, they have MOBS of people coming out the damn mountains and villages in PROTEST, this, THIS HERE has just mmade the jobs of the soldiers, (and my husband) THAT MUCH HARDER, that is why I protested on Saturday...

~Ashley P.

chiefzilla1501
09-12-2010, 09:29 PM
Who gives a **** if it is posted? If they are members of the "religion of peace" it won't matter. If they get pissed off then they are who we thought they were.
You are naive as shit. Does every Christian bomb an abortion clinic? Is every white person racist because Rush Limbaugh is? The Muslim religion is a peaceful religion, but in the Middle East, much of it has become brainwashed by religious leaders who are turning it into something totally different. Surely, you're not naive enough to believe that the same religious extremists who, you know, flew a few planes into the World Trade Center in the name of religion aren't going to respond when they see those evil Americans burn their most sacred text.


And those people are intervening because they know they bullshit the shovel is just that. As they stand there saying this is the religion of peace they can't believe their own lie.
What religion are you?

I'm Catholic. And there are more t han enough Christian extremists who do things that embarrass me as a Christian.

If you honestly think that burning Qurans isn't going to incite the wrong people in the wrong way, then you my friend, are naive with a capital N.

petegz28
09-12-2010, 09:32 PM
There is a reason they are intervening, I am not naive, and for whoever said up there to think my husband wasn't indanger, I'll tell you the same thing I told Reuters yesterday.... I AM NOT STUPID I know they're already in danger, it's like they're standing a pile of HOT COALS, and people like this are on the edge stoking it for a fire... yea sure they're at risk of being burned by coals but if we stir it and create fire it increases the risk. So many bases and FOBs (Forward Operations Base for those who don't know) are in BFE over there, and so many of them were okay for the most part, i mean mortors, and occassional gun fire, but NOW, they have MOBS of people coming out the damn mountains and villages in PROTEST, this, THIS HERE has just mmade the jobs of the soldiers, (and my husband) THAT MUCH HARDER, that is why I protested on Saturday...

~Ashley P.

So obviously then they don't foloow the religion of peace mantra we keep having shovled down our throats. The biggest threat to your husband is our government. Sending him over there to fight with one hand tied behind his back for a people that are largely unsupportive and unappreciative. The mere fact that your husband is over there helping these people should carry a much larger symbol than 2 or 3 people burning a Quran. If these people can't see that then it comes down to the fact that they don't want to see that.

We could have just went in there and wasted the entire place and came home. The fact that so many of our kids have died trying to help these people get a better life should be carrying more weight with the muslims than a few dolts with a lighter. Again, if they choose to ignore all that then there this whole idea of inflaming the mobs is just hooey as they were probably already secretively supportive of our enemies anyway.

petegz28
09-12-2010, 09:36 PM
You are naive as shit. Does every Christian bomb an abortion clinic? Is every white person racist because Rush Limbaugh is? The Muslim religion is a peaceful religion, but in the Middle East, much of it has become brainwashed by religious leaders who are turning it into something totally different. Surely, you're not naive enough to believe that the same religious extremists who, you know, flew a few planes into the World Trade Center in the name of religion aren't going to respond when they see those evil Americans burn their most sacred text.



What religion are you?

I'm Catholic. And there are more t han enough Christian extremists who do things that embarrass me as a Christian.

If you honestly think that burning Qurans isn't going to incite the wrong people in the wrong way, then you my friend, are naive with a capital N.

I'll tell you the same thing I told Aparsons. If the fact they we have men and women over there dying for these people doesn't carry weight over a few nut jobs with a lighter then burning a Quran was rather irrelevant in the first place. Yes they are brainwashed but they are also capable of judgement. Are our troops over there buring Qurans? Is the majority of this country burning Qurans? Is the majority of this country supportive if them building a victory mosque at ground zero? If they choose to ignore all that and get all twisted over a couple of dolts then fuck em' in the ass.

As if it matters as to what religion I am, I am a Panthiest.

chiefzilla1501
09-12-2010, 09:50 PM
I'll tell you the same thing I told Aparsons. If the fact they we have men and women over there dying for these people doesn't carry weight over a few nut jobs with a lighter then burning a Quran was rather irrelevant in the first place. Yes they are brainwashed but they are also capable of judgement.
You live in a naive world, then. They are brainwashed because the propaganda machine controls what information gets fed to these people. Imagine if everything you learned in school and your parents was about an extremist view that the US is evil and that it was a mandate from your God that you think this way. Imagine if the only news you got was from newspapers and TV news that only told you about the horrible things that the US has done. Imagine if everybody in power is telling you that the troops are there to take the Muslim state down. You can't make good judgments if your entire life people have been feeding you very bad information.


Are our troops over there buring Qurans? Is the majority of this country burning Qurans? Is the majority of this country supportive if them building a victory mosque at ground zero? If they choose to ignore all that and get all twisted over a couple of dolts then **** em' in the ass.
You're assuming they're getting all this information. They're not. And fine, hate on the extremist Muslims. But you can't be so ignorant to what these actions do to our troops who are fighting for us. It's easy to burn Qurans when you're not the one who has to take the heat in the middle east for it.

As if it matters as to what religion I am, I am a Panthiest. What I'm saying is that all religions have extremists. 99% of this country would never burn a Quran. And yet, we have one faction of people brought up under completely skewed religious beliefs that believe it's right. Just because Terry Jones is an idiot christian, doesn't make me or the majority of christians idiots too.

petegz28
09-12-2010, 10:33 PM
You live in a naive world, then. They are brainwashed because the propaganda machine controls what information gets fed to these people. Imagine if everything you learned in school and your parents was about an extremist view that the US is evil and that it was a mandate from your God that you think this way. Imagine if the only news you got was from newspapers and TV news that only told you about the horrible things that the US has done. Imagine if everybody in power is telling you that the troops are there to take the Muslim state down. You can't make good judgments if your entire life people have been feeding you very bad information.



You're assuming they're getting all this information. They're not. And fine, hate on the extremist Muslims. But you can't be so ignorant to what these actions do to our troops who are fighting for us. It's easy to burn Qurans when you're not the one who has to take the heat in the middle east for it.

What I'm saying is that all religions have extremists. 99% of this country would never burn a Quran. And yet, we have one faction of people brought up under completely skewed religious beliefs that believe it's right. Just because Terry Jones is an idiot christian, doesn't make me or the majority of christians idiots too.

Really? Is this imaginary?

If this doesn't speak volumes to these people then nothing will. And they can see this kind of shit happening every day. With their own eyes.

BucEyedPea
09-13-2010, 06:04 AM
Complete naivete.
I've been there. You haven't. I've read other sources documenting what I said. You haven't.
So your claim of naivete is just projection on your behalf. You've been played by the mainstream media's talking points which relies on the "race" card as a generality.
There was a thread here at one time about what Ds said they were going to do to smear the Tea Party movement. Their own words.

I'm sorry, but you can't tell me that you put that many extreme conservatives in one room especially with a Black President and with immigration and the mosque as hotbed issues and not hear racist/bigoted comments?
I'm an extreme conservative. You operate under a false definition of what a conservative is. The Tea Party movement was hijacked from the original small govt conservatives and libertarians by corporatists, NeoCons and Israel-Firster Evangelicals.

You know where the party stands on these issues and how strongly to one side the party leans. I'm not saying the party is racist/bigoted. I'm saying it's completely naive to believe that there aren't racist factions who will do/say really stupid shit.

Yes. In terms of fiscal conservatism, which is something I fundamentally agree with. But if tea partiers actually think that indies are starting to warm up to the tea party movement, then they are naive too. I'm a moderate swing voter myself. I am fiscally conservative, socially slightly liberal and I would guess that most people would agree with that. And while people like me agree with their fiscal stance because we fundamentally disagree with this administration's, sorry, I will never, ever support the Tea Party's social agenda. Shame, because the GOP could run away with this election if Sarah Palin and Glenn Beck weren't essentially running this party.
Go read previous threads on this including the poll documenting how Indies feel about the Tea Party. I am not going to spend an hour typing to rehash old arguments.

Beck and Palin are not real conservatives. They lean that way but Palin was a NeoCon on training wheels and is now a wholly owned subsidiary of Bill Kristol.

You are not familiar with the divisions in the conservative movement which has Pale-Cons, Neo-Cons, Evangelical wing ( allied with the NeoCons) and a libertarian wing. Get back to me when you haven't been educated solely by the mainstream media.

BTW, a bigot has a right to be left alone in a free country too. A bigot and a racist has a right to low taxes,small govt, property and protections/rights in the Constitution too. I don't care what they think. I only care if they try to deprive others of their rights which they can't do. We have checks and balances.

I'm not allowing myself to be played, dude. I am a moderate-conservative. I think you're allowing yourself to be played if you don't truly believe that morons are damaging the credibility of a movement that has a lot of elements that make sense.
Yes you are, imo. You're information is propaganda from the mainstream media and relies on a generality of "Tea Partiers." Propaganda to smear a whole group as racist.
Do some independent research.

BucEyedPea
09-13-2010, 06:17 AM
As far as I'm concerned, the Tea Party movement as a whole as well as the GOP have been wishy-washy about publicly criticizing these rogue factions.
Generality.

There have been plenty of public instances of racist comments and despicable behaviors.
Document here with links, please.

You don't have to endorse something for people to get a bad impression of what they do.
Generality and a strong influence from the mainstream media ( a source for sheep) who has chosen to color the movement this way.

Look at the opposite side— Obama put a Maoist and Communist in a position. Ayers and Wright were communists. Do I have to day more? If I had a choice I pick a racist who followed the Constitution over a Commie terrorist.

gopack_vag
09-13-2010, 09:33 AM
I also dont buy the 'puts our soldiers in harms way'. They are already in harms way, some idiot burning a koran didnt put that soldier in Afganistan. Is he helping the situation, probably not.

I think the bottom line is, they dont need a good reason to hate us, ANY REASON AT ALL will do. Somebody burned a book? JIHAD! Somebody wandered into our country while hiking? JIHAD! Somebody posted a funny cartoon? JIHAD! Some people dont like the Mosque built on Ground Zero? JIHAD!

I agree with someone else, forget their name, but we are fighting this war they way our enemies want to fight it. We can not solve the problems of these places, because religion is ingrained into their form of government and until that changes, they will continue to hate us. War is ugly, do you think we were concerned about the poor innocent Japanese when we dropped two bombs on them? Nope, we were concerned about the 100,000 Americans that would die if we had to invade Japan. We've lost site of looking after ourselves, and we care more for the people of other countries (that fundamently hate us and will continue to do so no matter how many Sorry Tours we take or how much money we send when they need help) then we do for our own countrymen.

Simple question: To save 1 american child, could you kill 10 iranians?

Now think, what would those iranians say to that very same question.

Chief Henry
09-13-2010, 09:51 AM
Here is the scenario Direkshun wants to paint:

We get attacked under the guise of religion

We say, this isn't a religous war because Islam is the religion of peace

Muslim countries around the world do little if anything to prevent these people from operating in their country

A few dolts burn a Quran

Direkshun and others say that puts out troops in harm's way

Direkshum then says the whole "religion of peace" mantra we get shoved down our throats has nothing to do with what he is talking about

Direkshun then says we are in a war of rhetoric and insulting Islam does us no good

Direkshun runs in circles on the last 2 things Direkshun said

You see, liberals don't see right and wrong. They see shades of gray in everything and want to see shades of grays in everything.

chiefzilla1501
09-14-2010, 11:40 PM
I've been there. You haven't. I've read other sources documenting what I said. You haven't.
So your claim of naivete is just projection on your behalf. You've been played by the mainstream media's talking points which relies on the "race" card as a generality.
There was a thread here at one time about what Ds said they were going to do to smear the Tea Party movement. Their own words.


I'm an extreme conservative. You operate under a false definition of what a conservative is. The Tea Party movement was hijacked from the original small govt conservatives and libertarians by corporatists, NeoCons and Israel-Firster Evangelicals.


Go read previous threads on this including the poll documenting how Indies feel about the Tea Party. I am not going to spend an hour typing to rehash old arguments.

Beck and Palin are not real conservatives. They lean that way but Palin was a NeoCon on training wheels and is now a wholly owned subsidiary of Bill Kristol.

You are not familiar with the divisions in the conservative movement which has Pale-Cons, Neo-Cons, Evangelical wing ( allied with the NeoCons) and a libertarian wing. Get back to me when you haven't been educated solely by the mainstream media.

BTW, a bigot has a right to be left alone in a free country too. A bigot and a racist has a right to low taxes,small govt, property and protections/rights in the Constitution too. I don't care what they think. I only care if they try to deprive others of their rights which they can't do. We have checks and balances.


Yes you are, imo. You're information is propaganda from the mainstream media and relies on a generality of "Tea Partiers." Propaganda to smear a whole group as racist.
Do some independent research.

Yes, I do believe you are naive. Not about your political beliefs, but of the acceptance of the tea party. That has nothing to do with mainstream media. This has to do with the plenty of conservatives I interact with (some of whom are very active in the Tea party) as well as being forced to watch Fox News whenever I'm with my parents. I'm not saying the tea party is racist. I am saying there are many elitists so-called conservatives who in my view are bigots (even if they don't realize it) and are using the tea party as a platform to advance their bigotry.

Sorry, that has nothing to do with mainstream media. That has everything to do with these conservatives who I believe, as a moderate conservative, are making a mockery out of the party and are bringing negative associations to the tea party movement. If the tea party wants to gain credibility, disown Glenn Beck. Disown Sarah Palin. Disown the social conservative elitists who are using the tea party as a platform to voice what I believe are often bigoted comments. I don't mind your view of extreme conservatism, which is centered largely around fiscal conservatism and is what the tea party is centered around. I lean in that direction too.

BucEyedPea
09-15-2010, 06:40 AM
Yes, I do believe you are naive. Not about your political beliefs, but of the acceptance of the tea party.
I didn't say acceptance. I just said their views were considered to be closer to their views. That was polled and that's what showed. That polls was in this forum somewhere. But that has to be are true Tea Partier.....not the one's we're being told are TPs but really aren't.

You see the TP as a homogenous group which is what I am saying is the mainstream view provided by the media. They are not. It's a lie.

Four in Ten Tea Partiers are Independents or Democrats (http://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box/polls/90541-survey-four-in-10-tea-party-members-dem-or-indie)

That said 61 percent of Tea Party members believe infrastructure spending creates jobs.

That's not my idea of what the original Tea Party stood for.

That has nothing to do with mainstream media. This has to do with the plenty of conservatives I interact with (some of whom are very active in the Tea party) as well as being forced to watch Fox News whenever I'm with my parents.
A true Tea Partier is not a huge Fox news watcher. I hate Fox on FP but I do like it on fiscal/economic issues. It's really more NeonCon if anything.

Sorry, that has nothing to do with mainstream media.
We disagree. A lot of it does.

That has everything to do with these conservatives who I believe, as a moderate conservative, are making a mockery out of the party and are bringing negative associations to the tea party movement. If the tea party wants to gain credibility, disown Glenn Beck. Disown Sarah Palin.
Beck and Palin are not true Tea Partiers....they in the hijacker camp. This is the point I am trying to get you to see but you refuse to see the division.

Disown the social conservative elitists who are using the tea party as a platform to voice what I believe are often bigoted comments. I don't mind your view of extreme conservatism, which is centered largely around fiscal conservatism and is what the tea party is centered around. I lean in that direction too.

The elitists are the ones I am saying are not true Tea Partiers. There is a divide with later comers who tried to exploit the TP. Then there are the originals.

BucEyedPea
09-15-2010, 06:44 AM
By a 62% to 12% margin, Mainstream Americans say the Tea Party is closer to their views. By a 90% to one percent (1%) margin, the Political Class feels closer to Congress.


I've seen other breakdowns where some say they accept it somewhat but others strongly.

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/general_politics/march_2010/most_say_tea_party_has_better_understanding_of_issues_than_congress

Jenson71
09-15-2010, 08:14 AM
Beck and Palin are not true Tea Partiers....they in the hijacker camp. This is the point I am trying to get you to see but you refuse to see the division.

Nothing beats a "True Tea Partier" fight. IM TRUE TEA PARTIER! YOU FAKE TEA PARTIER!