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Joe Seahawk
09-14-2010, 04:01 PM
Probably a repost, but whatever!

This is about as clear and easy to understand as it can be - please read it!!


The article below is completely neutral, ...not anti republican or democrat.

Charlie Reese, a retired reporter for the Orlando Sentinel has hit the nail directly on the head, defining clearly who it is that in the final analysis must assume responsibility for the judgments made that impact each one of us every day.

It's a short but good read. Worth the time. Worth remembering!

545 vs. 300,000,000

EVERY CITIZEN NEEDS TO READ THIS AND THINK ABOUT WHAT THIS JOURNALIST HAS SCRIPTED IN THIS MESSAGE. READ IT AND THEN REALLY THINK ABOUT OUR CURRENT POLITICAL DEBACLE.

Charley Reese has been a journalist for 49 years.

545 PEOPLE--By Charlie Reese

Politicians are the only people in the world who create problems and then campaign against them..

Have you ever wondered, if both the Democrats and the Republicans are against deficits, WHY do we have deficits?

Have you ever wondered, if all the politicians are against inflation and high taxes, WHY do we have inflation and high taxes?

You and I don't propose a federal budget. The president does.

You and I don't have the Constitutional authority to vote on appropriations. The House of Representatives does.

You and I don't write the tax code, Congress does.

You and I don't set fiscal policy, Congress does.

You and I don't control monetary policy, the Federal Reserve Bank does.

One hundred senators, 435 congressmen, one president, and nine Supreme Court justices equates to 545 human beings out of the 300 million are directly, legally, morally, and individually responsible for the domestic problems that plague this country.

I excluded the members of the Federal Reserve Board because that problem was created by the Congress. In 1913, Congress delegated its Constitutional duty to provide a sound currency to a federally chartered, but private, central bank.

I excluded all the special interests and lobbyists for a sound reason. They have no legal authority They have no ability to coerce a senator, a congressman, or a president to do one cotton-picking thing. I don't care if they offer a politician $1 million dollars in cash. The politician has the power to accept or reject it. No matter what the lobbyist promises, it is the legislator's responsibility to determine how he votes.

Those 545 human beings spend much of their energy convincing you that what they did is not their fault. They cooperate in this common con regardless of party.

What separates a politician from a normal human being is an excessive amount of gall. No normal human being would have the gall of a Speaker, who stood up and criticized the President for creating deficits.... . The president can only propose a budget. He cannot force the Congress to accept it.

The Constitution, which is the supreme law of the land, gives sole responsibility to the House of Representatives for originating and approving appropriations and taxes.
It seems inconceivable to me that a nation of 300 million can not replace
545 people who stand convicted -- by present facts -- of incompetence and irresponsibility. I can't think of a single domestic problem that is not traceable directly to those 545 people. When you fully grasp the plain truth that 545 people exercise the power of the federal government, then it must follow that what exists is what they want to exist.

If the tax code is unfair, it's because they want it unfair.

If the budget is in the red, it's because they want it in the red ..

If the Army & Marines are in IRAQ , it's because they want them in IRAQ If they do not receive social security but are on an elite retirement plan not available to the people, it's because they want it that way.

There are no insoluble government problems.

Do not let these 545 people shift the blame to bureaucrats, whom they hire and whose jobs they can abolish; to lobbyists, whose gifts and advice they can reject; to regulators, to whom they give the power to regulate and from whom they can take this power. Above all, do not let them con you into the belief that there exists disembodied mystical forces like "the economy," "inflation," or "politics" that prevent them from doing what they take an oath to do.

Those 545 people, and they alone, are responsible.

They, and they alone, have the power..

They, and they alone, should be held accountable by the people who are their bosses.

Provided the voters have the gumption to manage their own employees...

We should vote all of them out of office and clean up their mess!

Charlie Reese is a former columnist of the Orlando Sentinel Newspaper.

What you do with this article now that you have read it......... Is up to you.

This might be funny if it weren't so darned true.
Be sure to read all the way to the end:

Tax his land, Tax his bed, Tax the table, At which he's fed.

Tax his tractor, Tax his mule, Teach him taxes Are the rule.

Tax his work, Tax his pay, He works for peanuts Anyway!

Tax his cow, Tax his goat, Tax his pants, Tax his coat.

Tax his ties, Tax his shirt, Tax his work, Tax his dirt.

Tax his tobacco, Tax his drink, Tax him if he Tries to think.

Tax his cigars, Tax his beers, If he cries Tax his tears.

Tax his car, Tax his gas, Find other ways To tax his ass.

Tax all he has Then let him know That you won't be done Till he has no dough.

When he screams and hollers; Then tax him some more, Tax him till He's good and sore.

Then tax his coffin, Tax his grave, Tax the sod in Which he's laid...

Put these words Upon his tomb, Taxes drove me to my doom...' When he's gone, Do not relax, Its time to apply The inheritance tax..

Sales Tax
School Tax
Liquor Tax
Luxury Tax
Excise Taxes
Property Tax
Cigarette Tax
Medicare Tax
Inventory Tax
Real Estate Tax
Well Permit Tax
Fuel Permit Tax
Inheritance Tax
Road Usage Tax
CDL license Tax
Dog License Tax
State Income Tax
Food License Tax
Vehicle Sales Tax
Gross Receipts Tax
Social Security Tax
Service Charge Tax
Fishing License Tax
Federal Income Tax
Building Permit Tax
IRS Interest Charges
Hunting License Tax
Marriage License Tax
Corporate Income Tax
Personal Property Tax
Accounts Receivable Tax
Recreational Vehicle Tax
Workers Compensation Tax
Watercraft Registration Tax
Telephone Usage Charge Tax
Telephone Federal Excise Tax
Telephone State and Local Tax
IRS Penalties (tax on top of tax)
State Unemployment Tax (SUTA)
Federal Unemployment Tax (FUTA)
Telephone Minimum Usage Surcharge Tax
Telephone Federal Universal Service Fee Tax
Gasoline Tax (currently 44.75 cents per gallon)
Utility Taxes Vehicle License Registration Tax
Telephone Federal, State and Local Surcharge Taxes
Telephone Recurring and Nonrecurring Charges Tax

STILL THINK THIS IS FUNNY?
Not one of these taxes existed 100 years ago, & our nation was the most prosperous in the world.
We had absolutely no national debt, had the largest middle class in the world, and Mom stayed home to raise the kids.

What in the hell happened? Can you spell 'politicians?' I hope this goes around THE USA at least 100 times!!!
YOU can help it get there!!!
GO AHEAD - - - BE AN AMERICAN!!!

PS If you do the right thing and pass this on - which is entirely up to you -
please do the right thing and highlite and delete any addresses you receive with it.

Thank You

BucEyedPea
09-14-2010, 04:04 PM
Reese is one of my favorite journalists. His writings were posted over at one of the main libertarian sites Lew Rockwell's until he retired. BTW those problems politicians create apply to war in the ME too. He was a great foe of that too.


What separates a politician from a normal human being is an excessive amount of gall.

One of the best lines. Ever work with one of them say on a campaign. They do have a lot of gall. I guess that's what it takes to run.

Reaper16
09-14-2010, 05:15 PM
STILL THINK THIS IS FUNNY?
Not one of these taxes existed 100 years ago, & our nation was the most prosperous in the world.
We had absolutely no national debt, had the largest middle class in the world, and Mom stayed home to raise the kids.

What in the hell happened? Can you spell 'politicians?' I hope this goes around THE USA at least 100 times!!!
YOU can help it get there!!!
GO AHEAD - - - BE AN AMERICAN!!!

YEAH! GET BACK IN THE KITCHEN, BITCH. BE AN AMERICAN; BE A PATRIARCH.

orange
09-14-2010, 05:22 PM
STILL THINK THIS IS FUNNY?
Not one of these taxes existed 100 years ago, & our nation was the most prosperous in the world.
We had absolutely no national debt, had the largest middle class in the world, and Mom stayed home to raise the kids.


No, I think it's simple-minded and full of shit.

National Debt in 1910 - 100 years ago - $2,652,665,838.04 That's 2.5 BILLION.

National Debt in 1810 - 200 years ago - $53,173,217.52.

Just one conservative example of the glaring nonsense liberally strewn throughout the whole rant.

http://seekingalpha.com/instablog/239719-james-quinn/18242-national-debt-by-year

Reaper16
09-14-2010, 05:29 PM
No, I think it's simple-minded and full of shit.

National Debt in 1910 - 100 years ago - $2,652,665,838.04 That's 2.5 BILLION.

National Debt in 1810 - 200 years ago - $53,173,217.52.

Just one example of the glaring nonsense throughout the whole rant.

http://seekingalpha.com/instablog/239719-james-quinn/18242-national-debt-by-year
To be fair, the first draft of the email was written in 1910.

BucEyedPea
09-14-2010, 05:47 PM
To be fair, the first draft of the email was written in 1910.

Shows you how politicians don't change and govt doesn't work as well as we think.

Reaper16
09-14-2010, 05:59 PM
Shows you how politicians don't change and govt doesn't work as well as we think.
And women have always been best off cookin' and cleanin' and leaving the book-learnin' to the menfolk.

BucEyedPea
09-14-2010, 06:17 PM
And women have always been best off cookin' and cleanin' and leaving the book-learnin' to the menfolk.

Yet it's the moms that were those menfolk's first educators.

ClevelandBronco
09-14-2010, 06:34 PM
And women have always been best off cookin' and cleanin' and leaving the book-learnin' to the menfolk.

Not cooking. Name three great women chefs.

Most women just don't have the creative chops to keep up with men in any artistic field. My guess is that they're unable to concentrate on one thing to the exclusion (and often the detriment) of all others.

I'm going to take another guess and say that my first guess won't be a popular one.

HonestChieffan
09-14-2010, 07:02 PM
No, I think it's simple-minded and full of shit.


Speaking of simple minded and full of shit, where have you been?

Calcountry
09-14-2010, 07:36 PM
Speaking of simple minded and full of shit, where have you been?LMAO

orange
09-14-2010, 08:08 PM
Speaking of simple minded and full of shit, where have you been?

.. she said.

Fat Elvis
09-15-2010, 10:46 AM
Probably a repost, but whatever!

This is about as clear and easy to understand as it can be - please read it!!


The article below is completely neutral, ...not anti republican or democrat.

Charlie Reese, a retired reporter for the Orlando Sentinel has hit the nail directly on the head, defining clearly who it is that in the final analysis must assume responsibility for the judgments made that impact each one of us every day.

It's a short but good read. Worth the time. Worth remembering!

545 vs. 300,000,000

EVERY CITIZEN NEEDS TO READ THIS AND THINK ABOUT WHAT THIS JOURNALIST HAS SCRIPTED IN THIS MESSAGE. READ IT AND THEN REALLY THINK ABOUT OUR CURRENT POLITICAL DEBACLE.

Charley Reese has been a journalist for 49 years.

545 PEOPLE--By Charlie Reese

Politicians are the only people in the world who create problems and then campaign against them..

Have you ever wondered, if both the Democrats and the Republicans are against deficits, WHY do we have deficits?

Have you ever wondered, if all the politicians are against inflation and high taxes, WHY do we have inflation and high taxes?

You and I don't propose a federal budget. The president does.

You and I don't have the Constitutional authority to vote on appropriations. The House of Representatives does.

You and I don't write the tax code, Congress does.

You and I don't set fiscal policy, Congress does.

You and I don't control monetary policy, the Federal Reserve Bank does.

One hundred senators, 435 congressmen, one president, and nine Supreme Court justices equates to 545 human beings out of the 300 million are directly, legally, morally, and individually responsible for the domestic problems that plague this country.

I excluded the members of the Federal Reserve Board because that problem was created by the Congress. In 1913, Congress delegated its Constitutional duty to provide a sound currency to a federally chartered, but private, central bank.

I excluded all the special interests and lobbyists for a sound reason. They have no legal authority They have no ability to coerce a senator, a congressman, or a president to do one cotton-picking thing. I don't care if they offer a politician $1 million dollars in cash. The politician has the power to accept or reject it. No matter what the lobbyist promises, it is the legislator's responsibility to determine how he votes.

Those 545 human beings spend much of their energy convincing you that what they did is not their fault. They cooperate in this common con regardless of party.

What separates a politician from a normal human being is an excessive amount of gall. No normal human being would have the gall of a Speaker, who stood up and criticized the President for creating deficits.... . The president can only propose a budget. He cannot force the Congress to accept it.

The Constitution, which is the supreme law of the land, gives sole responsibility to the House of Representatives for originating and approving appropriations and taxes.
It seems inconceivable to me that a nation of 300 million can not replace
545 people who stand convicted -- by present facts -- of incompetence and irresponsibility. I can't think of a single domestic problem that is not traceable directly to those 545 people. When you fully grasp the plain truth that 545 people exercise the power of the federal government, then it must follow that what exists is what they want to exist.

If the tax code is unfair, it's because they want it unfair.

If the budget is in the red, it's because they want it in the red ..

If the Army & Marines are in IRAQ , it's because they want them in IRAQ If they do not receive social security but are on an elite retirement plan not available to the people, it's because they want it that way.

There are no insoluble government problems.

Do not let these 545 people shift the blame to bureaucrats, whom they hire and whose jobs they can abolish; to lobbyists, whose gifts and advice they can reject; to regulators, to whom they give the power to regulate and from whom they can take this power. Above all, do not let them con you into the belief that there exists disembodied mystical forces like "the economy," "inflation," or "politics" that prevent them from doing what they take an oath to do.

Those 545 people, and they alone, are responsible.

They, and they alone, have the power..

They, and they alone, should be held accountable by the people who are their bosses.

Provided the voters have the gumption to manage their own employees...

We should vote all of them out of office and clean up their mess!

Charlie Reese is a former columnist of the Orlando Sentinel Newspaper.

What you do with this article now that you have read it......... Is up to you.

This might be funny if it weren't so darned true.
Be sure to read all the way to the end:

Tax his land, Tax his bed, Tax the table, At which he's fed.

Tax his tractor, Tax his mule, Teach him taxes Are the rule.

Tax his work, Tax his pay, He works for peanuts Anyway!

Tax his cow, Tax his goat, Tax his pants, Tax his coat.

Tax his ties, Tax his shirt, Tax his work, Tax his dirt.

Tax his tobacco, Tax his drink, Tax him if he Tries to think.

Tax his cigars, Tax his beers, If he cries Tax his tears.

Tax his car, Tax his gas, Find other ways To tax his ass.

Tax all he has Then let him know That you won't be done Till he has no dough.

When he screams and hollers; Then tax him some more, Tax him till He's good and sore.

Then tax his coffin, Tax his grave, Tax the sod in Which he's laid...

Put these words Upon his tomb, Taxes drove me to my doom...' When he's gone, Do not relax, Its time to apply The inheritance tax..

Sales Tax
School Tax
Liquor Tax
Luxury Tax
Excise Taxes
Property Tax
Cigarette Tax
Medicare Tax
Inventory Tax
Real Estate Tax
Well Permit Tax
Fuel Permit Tax
Inheritance Tax
Road Usage Tax
CDL license Tax
Dog License Tax
State Income Tax
Food License Tax
Vehicle Sales Tax
Gross Receipts Tax
Social Security Tax
Service Charge Tax
Fishing License Tax
Federal Income Tax
Building Permit Tax
IRS Interest Charges
Hunting License Tax
Marriage License Tax
Corporate Income Tax
Personal Property Tax
Accounts Receivable Tax
Recreational Vehicle Tax
Workers Compensation Tax
Watercraft Registration Tax
Telephone Usage Charge Tax
Telephone Federal Excise Tax
Telephone State and Local Tax
IRS Penalties (tax on top of tax)
State Unemployment Tax (SUTA)
Federal Unemployment Tax (FUTA)
Telephone Minimum Usage Surcharge Tax
Telephone Federal Universal Service Fee Tax
Gasoline Tax (currently 44.75 cents per gallon)
Utility Taxes Vehicle License Registration Tax
Telephone Federal, State and Local Surcharge Taxes
Telephone Recurring and Nonrecurring Charges Tax

STILL THINK THIS IS FUNNY?
Not one of these taxes existed 100 years ago, & our nation was the most prosperous in the world.
We had absolutely no national debt, had the largest middle class in the world, and Mom stayed home to raise the kids.

What in the hell happened? Can you spell 'politicians?' I hope this goes around THE USA at least 100 times!!!
YOU can help it get there!!!
GO AHEAD - - - BE AN AMERICAN!!!

PS If you do the right thing and pass this on - which is entirely up to you -
please do the right thing and highlite and delete any addresses you receive with it.

Thank You

1910 kicked ass.


In the US:
Life Expectancy: Male 48.4 Female: 51.8
Average Salary $750 / year
National Debt: $1.15 billion

Unsafe working conditions were underscored by the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory fire (1911) in which 145 female workers were killed. Children were hired to work in factories, milles, and mines for long hours in unsafe and unhealthy conditions. Though efforts to pass a federal law proved unsuccessful, by the middle of this decade every state had passed a minimum age law. A commission found that up to 20% of the children living in cities were undernourished, education took second place to hunger and while children worked, only one-third enrolled in elementary school and less than 10% graduated from high school.

Women can't vote. (a BEP ideal, I'm sure)
No social safety net.
Robber barons.

Where do I sign up for this tax-lite utopia?

bevischief
09-15-2010, 01:12 PM
1910 kicked ass.


In the US:
Life Expectancy: Male 48.4 Female: 51.8
Average Salary $750 / year
National Debt: $1.15 billion

Unsafe working conditions were underscored by the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory fire (1911) in which 145 female workers were killed. Children were hired to work in factories, milles, and mines for long hours in unsafe and unhealthy conditions. Though efforts to pass a federal law proved unsuccessful, by the middle of this decade every state had passed a minimum age law. A commission found that up to 20% of the children living in cities were undernourished, education took second place to hunger and while children worked, only one-third enrolled in elementary school and less than 10% graduated from high school.

Women can't vote. (a BEP ideal, I'm sure)
No social safety net.
Robber barons.

Where do I sign up for this tax-lite utopia?

Delaware.

Reaper16
09-15-2010, 09:44 PM
Yet it's the moms that were those menfolk's first educators.
The same menfolk who grew up to hold bullshit chauvinistic ideas about the place of women in society as subservient.

Not cooking. Name three great women chefs.

Most women just don't have the creative chops to keep up with men in any artistic field. My guess is that they're unable to concentrate on one thing to the exclusion (and often the detriment) of all others.

I'm going to take another guess and say that my first guess won't be a popular one.
Three great women chefs? Alice Waters, Lidia Bastianich, Cui Yufen. That took like four seconds to think about and type. That post of yours is fucking insane. That's worse than anything Hootie has ever posted.

stevieray
09-15-2010, 09:52 PM
YEAH! GET BACK IN THE KITCHEN, BITCH. BE AN AMERICAN; BE A PATRIARCH.

....don't you mean Matriarch? like it's a bad thing...

close to your dad??

Reaper16
09-15-2010, 09:54 PM
....don't you mean Matriarch? like it's a bad thing...

close to your dad??
I didn't mean matriarch. If a woman is confined to the home, limited in what societal roles she can play, then it is a product of patriarchal power.

I haven't been traditionally close to my dad at all [in before multiple counts of "THAT SAYS A LOT"], but I'm on good terms with him in recent years.

Aries Walker
09-15-2010, 09:57 PM
I can't believe that that article was written by a professional journalist - but it was (or at least the first half was). Oh, and his name is misspelled a couple of times, and it was written 25 years ago. Expert journalism.

stevieray
09-15-2010, 09:59 PM
I didn't mean matriarch. If a woman is confined to the home, limited in what societal roles she can play, then it is a product of patriarchal power.

I haven't been traditionally close to my dad at all [in before multiple counts of "THAT SAYS A LOT"], but I'm on good terms with him in recent years.

wow...won't even give women a title they deserve, and some, if not most cherish.

I guess painting with the broad brush is easier.

Reaper16
09-15-2010, 10:04 PM
wow...won't even give women a title they deserve, and some, if not most cherish.

I guess painting with the broad brush is easier.
What? Can you make that make sense for me?

'Hamas' Jenkins
09-15-2010, 10:05 PM
Stevie, you are misreading what he is saying.

A patriarchal system is one in which the men hold all the power. The work the jobs that pay the bills, while the women stay at home and raise the kids while remaining barefoot, pregnant, and constantly in the kitchen.

The idea of women staying at home to do all those things harkens back to an even more patriarchal system than the one we have now. He's not debating what role women serve vis-a-vis the family unit (father=patriarch, mother=matriarch) but rather who exercises the power in a given society.

ClevelandBronco
09-15-2010, 10:07 PM
The same menfolk who grew up to hold bullshit chauvinistic ideas about the place of women in society as subservient.


Three great women chefs? Alice Waters, Lidia Bastianich, Cui Yufen. That took like four seconds to think about and type. That post of yours is ****ing insane. That's worse than anything Hootie has ever posted.

I know that you're more well versed than many when it comes to that subject (and as far as I can tell, no other).

I'll stand by my statement. Women have hardly made a dent in the arts compared to the impact men have had.

ClevelandBronco
09-15-2010, 10:08 PM
I haven't been traditionally close to my dad at all...

There's a shocker.

Reaper16
09-15-2010, 10:10 PM
I know that you're more well versed than many when it comes to that subject (and as far as I can tell, no other).

I'll stand by my statement. Women have hardly made a dent in the arts compared to the impact men have had.
Historically, women haven't been allowed to create art. Education and freedom for women has been a relatively recent historical occurrence. The achievement of women in the arts (especially literature) in the last 200 years has been so immense as to command its own gravitational pull.

Reaper16
09-15-2010, 10:10 PM
There's a shocker.
I beat you to that punch already in that post. Heh.

'Hamas' Jenkins
09-15-2010, 10:10 PM
I know that you're more well versed than many when it comes to that subject (and as far as I can tell, no other).

I'll stand by my statement. Women have hardly made a dent in the arts compared to the impact men have had.

Funny you should mention that. For most of recorded history it was anathema for women to write, for one, because it was viewed as something too dangerous for them to do.

That might lead to considerably less of a dent in literature. It's also why people like "George Eliot" needed a nom de plume.

ClevelandBronco
09-15-2010, 10:15 PM
Historically, women haven't been allowed to create art. Education and freedom for women has been a relatively recent historical occurrence. The achievement of women in the arts (especially literature) in the last 200 years has been so immense as to command its own gravitational pull.

Piffle. The 20th century certainly should have seen an explosion of important output from women. It didn't.

'Hamas' Jenkins
09-15-2010, 10:19 PM
Piffle. The 20th century certainly should have seen an explosion of important output from women. It didn't.

Signed,

Virginia Woolf
Simone de Beauvoir
Tony Morrison
Gertrude Stein
Hilda Doolittle
Willa Cather
Kate Chopin
Herta Muller
Hannah Arendt
Adrienne Rich
Gloria Anzaldua
bell hooks
Octavia Butler
Jeanette Winterstein

'Hamas' Jenkins
09-15-2010, 10:22 PM
Pat Barker
Hilda Doolittle
Ursula LeGuin
Sylvia Plath
Zitkala Sa
Charlotte Perkins Gillman
Edith Wharton
Sui Sin Far

ClevelandBronco
09-15-2010, 10:34 PM
Signed,

Virginia Woolf
Simone de Beauvoir
Tony Morrison
Gertrude Stein
Hilda Doolittle
Willa Cather
Kate Chopin
Herta Muller
Hannah Arendt
Adrienne Rich
Gloria Anzaldua
bell hooks
Octavia Butler
Jeanette Winterstein

Your list pales next to the list of the men. I'm pleased that some of the ladies and their lesser work could be remembered to make everyone feel included.

'Hamas' Jenkins
09-15-2010, 10:39 PM
Yeah, I mean it's not like they are in the Norton Anthology (which is the modern canon), nor are there any Nobel Laureates there. And of course, that list is exhaustive.

ClevelandBronco
09-15-2010, 11:30 PM
At any rate, I wish it were true that an equivalent fraction of women could produce the kind of challenging art that men do. We'd all be better off for it.

Reaper16
09-16-2010, 01:40 AM
Signed,

Virginia Woolf
Simone de Beauvoir
Tony Morrison
Gertrude Stein
Hilda Doolittle
Willa Cather
Kate Chopin
Herta Muller
Hannah Arendt
Adrienne Rich
Gloria Anzaldua
bell hooks
Octavia Butler
Jeanette Winterstein

Pat Barker
Hilda Doolittle
Ursula LeGuin
Sylvia Plath
Zitkala Sa
Charlotte Perkins Gillman
Edith Wharton
Sui Sin Far
Flannery O'Connor
Nella Larsen
Rae Armantrout
Patricia Hampl
JOAN FUCKING DIDION
Annie Dillard
Mary Jo Bang
Margaret Atwood
Joyce Carol Oates
Suzan-Lori Parks
Nikki Giovanni
Louise Gluck
Sharon Olds
Jamaica Kincade
Anne Carson

We could go on, ClevelandBronco. These have all been obvious ones right off the top of our heads.

googlegoogle
09-16-2010, 02:48 AM
It's called welfare & entitlements and buying votes.

Aries Walker
09-16-2010, 03:00 AM
It takes a while for a repressed group of people to catch up to the repressing group, once things become equal. The important thing is the trend: each decade, the 10-Best-Lists and Pulitzer Price roll calls have more women in them then the decade before. Women are advancing in every field (just today, it was announced that more women earned doctorates last year than men, for the first time ever.) So, even assuming they're equal now, which they're not, it's nothing shocking that anyone who wants to can now name a list of male writers that would blast the women's list out of the water.

Oh, with one exception, which it appears you all forgot: one J.K. Rowling, who devastated any previous sales records, optioned eight movies, claimed a mountain of professional accolades, and single-handedly saved the book printing industry from complete extinction. She did all right, I think.

Oh, and there's Stephanie Meyers, writer of Twilight. And Emma Thompson, who won an Oscar for her screenplay for Sense & Sensibiliy. Betty Friedan wrote The Feminine Mystique and changed the world through it. Margaret Mitchell wrote Gone with the Wind, the book on which the most successful movie of all time was based. Oh, also Pearl S. Buck, Harper Lee, Eudora Welty, Alice Walker who wrote The Color Purple, and Joyce Carol Oates, each of whom won the Pulitzer Prize for Fiction. And this isn't even if we start counting songwriting, poetry, music, clothing, painting, artistry, sculpting, architecture, landscaping, make-up, hairstyling, singing, and acting.

I'm guessing you just like being a dude. That's cool; so do I. But women have done a lot for arts. It's tough for even the toughest tough men to contradict that.

Fat Elvis
09-16-2010, 08:55 AM
Signed,

Virginia Woolf
Simone de Beauvoir
Tony Morrison
Gertrude Stein
Hilda Doolittle
Willa Cather
Kate Chopin
Herta Muller
Hannah Arendt
Adrienne Rich
Gloria Anzaldua
bell hooks
Octavia Butler
Jeanette Winterstein

Pat Barker
Hilda Doolittle
Ursula LeGuin
Sylvia Plath
Zitkala Sa
Charlotte Perkins Gillman
Edith Wharton
Sui Sin Far

Flannery O'Connor
Nella Larsen
Rae Armantrout
Patricia Hampl
JOAN ****ING DIDION
Annie Dillard
Mary Jo Bang
Margaret Atwood
Joyce Carol Oates
Suzan-Lori Parks
Nikki Giovanni
Louise Gluck
Sharon Olds
Jamaica Kincade
Anne Carson

We could go on, ClevelandBronco. These have all been obvious ones right off the top of our heads.


And all the right wing teabaggers whisper in unison: "Please don't say Ayn Rand, please don't say Ayn Rand, please don't...."

BucEyedPea
09-16-2010, 09:06 AM
Ayn Rand, Ayn Rand, Ayn Rand, Ayn Rand, Ayn Rand, Ayn Rand, Ayn Rand
Ayn Rand, Ayn Rand, Ayn Rand, Ayn Rand, Ayn Rand, Ayn Rand, Ayn Rand
Ayn Rand, Ayn Rand, Ayn Rand, Ayn Rand, Ayn Rand, Ayn Rand, Ayn Rand
Ayn Rand, Ayn Rand, Ayn Rand, Ayn Rand, Ayn Rand, Ayn Rand, Ayn Rand
Ayn Rand, Ayn Rand, Ayn Rand, Ayn Rand, Ayn Rand, Ayn Rand, Ayn Rand
Ayn Rand, Ayn Rand, Ayn Rand, Ayn Rand, Ayn Rand, Ayn Rand, Ayn Rand


:D:D

BucEyedPea
09-16-2010, 09:11 AM
Historically, women haven't been allowed to create art. Education and freedom for women has been a relatively recent historical occurrence. The achievement of women in the arts (especially literature) in the last 200 years has been so immense as to command its own gravitational pull.

All those modern conveniences that capitalism brought to them like: vacuum cleaners, ovens, dishwashers, pull-ups, washing machines and dryers, less death in childbirth, supermarkets etc. etc. have created so much more free time it doesn't take all day to prepare the main meal of the day allowing women to do more than just housework. Except for political rights like voting the main contribution to women's freedom has been free-enterprise capitalism which raised everyone's standard of living.

As for creating art female arts were just confined to creating future leaders and domestic arts—which do have their own form of arts. Nothing to look down upon, imo. As for education, the Catholic Church educated their nuns and had university schools open to all including women during the Middle Ages. Up until then it was mainly only the clergy or wealthy that got educations both male and female. Or course the invention of the printing press was one of the main causes of the masses getting more education as books could be mass produced instead of hand written by scribes for the few.

ClevelandBronco
09-16-2010, 09:54 AM
It takes a while for a repressed group of people to catch up to the repressing group, once things become equal. The important thing is the trend: each decade, the 10-Best-Lists and Pulitzer Price roll calls have more women in them then the decade before. Women are advancing in every field (just today, it was announced that more women earned doctorates last year than men, for the first time ever.) So, even assuming they're equal now, which they're not, it's nothing shocking that anyone who wants to can now name a list of male writers that would blast the women's list out of the water.

Oh, with one exception, which it appears you all forgot: one J.K. Rowling, who devastated any previous sales records, optioned eight movies, claimed a mountain of professional accolades, and single-handedly saved the book printing industry from complete extinction. She did all right, I think.

Oh, and there's Stephanie Meyers, writer of Twilight. And Emma Thompson, who won an Oscar for her screenplay for Sense & Sensibiliy. Betty Friedan wrote The Feminine Mystique and changed the world through it. Margaret Mitchell wrote Gone with the Wind, the book on which the most successful movie of all time was based. Oh, also Pearl S. Buck, Harper Lee, Eudora Welty, Alice Walker who wrote The Color Purple, and Joyce Carol Oates, each of whom won the Pulitzer Prize for Fiction. And this isn't even if we start counting songwriting, poetry, music, clothing, painting, artistry, sculpting, architecture, landscaping, make-up, hairstyling, singing, and acting.

I'm guessing you just like being a dude. That's cool; so do I. But women have done a lot for arts. It's tough for even the toughest tough men to contradict that.

Bullshit. Creativity is not in any way like wealth. It cannot be accumulated over generations. Try another excuse.

ClevelandBronco
09-16-2010, 09:59 AM
Just because this woman or that woman can turn out to be a Larry Bird of the arts, that proves about as much about women in the arts as Bird does about white guys in the NBA.

ClevelandBronco
09-16-2010, 10:13 AM
As for more women being included in Norton or on similar lists and compilations, I'd have to ponder whether the selection committees just might be every bit as apolitical as, oh, say the Texas Board of Education.

Everyone has their dogmas, and I'm arguing against years of indoctrination, most of it accomplished by the dedicated and indoctrinated women who deliver education to our children. I'm arguing against belief and all I have on my side are facts and evidence. I don't stand a chance of persuading anyone here.

Jenson71
09-16-2010, 10:34 AM
As for education, the Catholic Church educated their nuns and had university schools open to all including women during the Middle Ages.

I'm about as pro-medieval Catholic Church as a person can possibly be, but I don't think women were allowed in the medieval universities.

Taught? Yes. Probably mostly by parents, and I can see that there would be education in the convents, but I don't think entrance in university was a possibility.

Reaper16
09-16-2010, 10:38 AM
As for more women being included in Norton or on similar lists and compilations, I'd have to ponder whether the selection committees just might be every bit as apolitical as, oh, say the Texas Board of Education.

Everyone has their dogmas, and I'm arguing against years of indoctrination, most of it accomplished by the dedicated and indoctrinated women who deliver education to our children. I'm arguing against belief and all I have on my side are facts and evidence. I don't stand a chance of persuading anyone here.
All you have is complete bullshit. You're indignantly ignorant, which is one of the worst combination that someone can be.

ClevelandBronco
09-16-2010, 10:41 AM
All you have is complete bullshit. You're indignantly ignorant, which is one of the worst combination that someone can be.

Yes, I understand your position. Dinosaurs and humans walked the earth at the same time and women are capable of everything men are.

Reaper16
09-16-2010, 10:44 AM
Yes, I understand your position. Dinosaurs and humans walked the earth at the same time and women are capable of everything men are.
My position, whatever that is, is certainly helped by actually being able to name great female artists. Let alone actually having experienced their art.

ClevelandBronco
09-16-2010, 10:45 AM
My position, whatever that is, is certainly helped by actually being able to name great female artists. Let alone actually having experienced their art.

You saw Larry Bird play. Good for you.

Reaper16
09-16-2010, 10:50 AM
You saw Larry Bird play. Good for you.
Surely you could - almost immediately and off the top of your head - come up with a list of male artists - just writers, even - from the last 100 years that are significantly better/more impactful than the lists Hamas and I blurted out. Right?

Jenson71
09-16-2010, 10:54 AM
Signed,

Hilda Doolittle
Herta Muller
Adrienne Rich
Gloria Anzaldua
bell hooks
Octavia Butler
Jeanette Winterstein

Pat Barker
Hilda Doolittle
Ursula LeGuin
Zitkala Sa
Charlotte Perkins Gillman
Sui Sin Far


Nella Larsen
Rae Armantrout
Patricia Hampl
JOAN ****ING DIDION
Annie Dillard
Mary Jo Bang
Margaret Atwood
Suzan-Lori Parks
Nikki Giovanni
Louise Gluck
Sharon Olds
Jamaica Kincade
Anne Carson


Just for fun, these are the women I have never heard of before.

ClevelandBronco
09-16-2010, 11:00 AM
Surely you could - almost immediately and off the top of your head - come up with a list of male artists - just writers, even - from the last 100 years that are significantly better/more impactful than the lists Hamas and I blurted out. Right?

Yes, and so could you.

BucEyedPea
09-16-2010, 11:03 AM
You guys skipped Beatrice Potter, Jane Austen and the Bronte sisters.

Reaper16
09-16-2010, 11:06 AM
You guys skipped Beatrice Potter, Jane Austen and the Bronte sisters.
We've been focusing on the last 100 years since ClevelandChauvinist asked about the 20th century specifically. Going back to the 1800s would just be adding punches to the head after the ref has already stopped the fight.

Reaper16
09-16-2010, 11:06 AM
Yes, and so could you.
Let's see it. Put your money where your mouth is.

BucEyedPea
09-16-2010, 11:18 AM
We've been focusing on the last 100 years since ClevelandChauvinist asked about the 20th century specifically. Going back to the 1800s would just be adding punches to the head after the ref has already stopped the fight.

I was being a bit facetious.

BucEyedPea
09-16-2010, 11:23 AM
Nuns got an education if they wanted it. It was actually during the Renaissance that women met set-backs from earlier gains made in the Middle Ages.

In the early Medieval period, women often worked alongside men. Manuscript illuminations, embroideries, and carved capitals from the period clearly demonstrate examples of women at work in these arts. Documents show that they also were brewers, butchers, wool merchants, and iron mongers. Artists of the time period, including women, were from a small subset of society whose status allowed them freedom from these more strenuous types of work. Women who were artists, often were of two literate classes, either wealthy aristocratic women or nuns. Women in the former category often created embroideries and textiles. Those in the later category often produced illuminations.

There were a number of embroidery workshops in England at the time, particularly at Canterbury and Winchester; Opus Anglicanum or English embroidery was already famous across Europe - a 13th century Papal inventory counted over two hundred pieces. It is presumed that women were almost entirely responsible for this production. One of the most famous embroideries of the Medieval period is the Bayeux Tapestry, of cloth embroidered with wool that is 230 feet long and which narrates the Battle of Hastings and the Norman Conquest of England. The Bayeux Tapestry may have been created in either a commercial workshop, by a royal or aristocratic lady and her retinue, or a workshop in a nunnery. In the 14th century, a royal workshop is documented, based at the Tower of London, and there may have been other earlier arrangements.

Manuscript illumination affords us many of the named artists of the Medieval Period including Ende, a tenth century Spanish nun; Guda, a twelfth century German nun; Claricia, twelfth century laywoman in a Bavarian scriptorium. These women, and many more unnamed illuminators, benefited from the nature of convents as the major loci of learning for women in the period and the most tenable option for intellectuals among them....

....by the end of the Middle Ages, when production of manuscripts had become an important industry in certain centres, women seem to have represented a majority of the artists, and scribes, employed, especially in Paris.

I originally got my info from a Catholic historian but he has nothing on the web. So I just used the above as an example. Don't forget the Lady of Bath who headed her husband's business.

ClevelandBronco
09-16-2010, 11:24 AM
Let's see it. Put your money where your mouth is.

If my list is extensive enough would you be willing to reconsider your position? No? Then what's the point?

ClevelandBronco
09-16-2010, 11:25 AM
We've been focusing on the last 100 years since ClevelandChauvinist asked about the 20th century specifically. Going back to the 1800s would just be adding punches to the head after the ref has already stopped the fight.

Actually, I didn't ask about the 20th century. I made a true statement about it.

Reaper16
09-16-2010, 11:27 AM
If my list is extensive enough would you be willing to reconsider your position? No? Then what's the point?
I am always willing to reconsider any position. I am not closed-minded. If the gulf is as vast as you claim it to be then your list would be very convincing, I'd think.

Reaper16
09-16-2010, 11:28 AM
Actually, I didn't ask about the 20th century. I made a true statement about it.
My bad. You didn't ask about it, sorry. You made a statement about it that Hamas and I fucking demolished.

ClevelandBronco
09-16-2010, 11:41 AM
I am always willing to reconsider any position. I am not closed-minded. If the gulf is as vast as you claim it to be then your list would be very convincing, I'd think.

I'm not convinced.

Reaper16
09-16-2010, 12:53 PM
I'm not going to wait around as you drag on the tease of you having an idea of what you're talking about. You're only playing into the exact expectations I have of you.

Jenson71
09-16-2010, 01:56 PM
Nuns got an education if they wanted it. It was actually during the Renaissance that women met set-backs from earlier gains made in the Middle Ages.



I originally got my info from a Catholic historian but he has nothing on the web. So I just used the above as an example. Don't forget the Lady of Bath who headed her husband's business.

Okay, great. None of what you posted shows that women were allowed into medieval universities. Just that some women were educated, which I've already spoken to.

Jenson71
09-16-2010, 02:17 PM
Surely you could - almost immediately and off the top of your head - come up with a list of male artists - just writers, even - from the last 100 years that are significantly better/more impactful than the lists Hamas and I blurted out. Right?

I think I could.

Just by looking at Modern Library's 100 best fiction and non-fiction of the 20the century lists, the over-whelming majority are written by men.

Joyce, Hemingway, Fitzgerald, Orwell, Steinbeck, Lawrence, James, Bellow, Waugh, Faulkner, Huxley, Mailer, Conrad, Lewis.

Not many women can compete to that degree of significance and importance. Woolf comes closest. Wharton, Cather, Stein and O'Connor are strong showings. But they aren't read outside of specialized college English classes.

However, it's not like the 20th century saw the complete opening up of women's opportunities for all women, to the degree of men in similiar circumstances. It wasn't until midway through the century when women were going to class at Harvard, not Radcliffe, at Notre Dame, not Saint Mary's, at Yale, not Smith.

BucEyedPea
09-16-2010, 02:28 PM
The same menfolk who grew up to hold bullshit chauvinistic ideas about the place of women in society as subservient.
See the whole problem with the feminist bashing of men argument is that it judges the past from a modern context which is very unfair. For one people needed new people to survive due to death rates so women spent most of their time in childbirth which was sheer survival at one time. Then it all day to prepare food. That was just a division of labor which was more efficient back then without modern inventions.

Plus during the Middle Ages women became more revered and honored. It was the age of chivalry. That stemmed from respect for Mary.

So the "chauvanist" claim is totally out of context. It also shows a disrespect for the role woman played to ensure the survival of the race as that kind of work is actually very important. Yet, only mens work outside the home gets respect. I ask you who are the real chauvanists?

BucEyedPea
09-16-2010, 02:40 PM
The same menfolk who grew up to hold bullshit chauvinistic ideas about the place of women in society as subservient.
See the whole problem with the feminist bashing of men argument is that it judges the past from a modern context which is very unfair. For one people needed new people to survive due to death rates so women spent most of their time in childbirth which was sheer survival at one time. Then it took all day to prepare food. That was just division of labor which is more efficient especially back then without modern inventions.

Plus during the Middle Ages women became more revered and honored. It was the age of chivalry. That stemmed from respect for Mary. Plus during this time markets revived with trade and shops where women participated. It was a internationalist period that was decentralized until the rise of nations happened.

So the "chauvanist" claim is totally out of context. As well it shows a total disrespect for the role woman played to ensure the survival of the race as that kind of work is actually very important. That stems from Marxist ideas actually. Only mens work outside the home gets respect because Marx wanted women freed utterly from their biology. He was really about social change using economics to bring about that change. But I have to ask you who are the real chauvanists, with so much disdain for what is traditional woman's work?

Reaper16
09-16-2010, 05:32 PM
See the whole problem with the feminist bashing of men argument is that it judges the past from a modern context which is very unfair. For one people needed new people to survive due to death rates so women spent most of their time in childbirth which was sheer survival at one time. Then it took all day to prepare food. That was just division of labor which is more efficient especially back then without modern inventions.

Plus during the Middle Ages women became more revered and honored. It was the age of chivalry. That stemmed from respect for Mary. Plus during this time markets revived with trade and shops where women participated. It was a internationalist period that was decentralized until the rise of nations happened.

So the "chauvanist" claim is totally out of context. As well it shows a total disrespect for the role woman played to ensure the survival of the race as that kind of work is actually very important. That stems from Marxist ideas actually. Only mens work outside the home gets respect because Marx wanted women freed utterly from their biology. He was really about social change using economics to bring about that change. But I have to ask you who are the real chauvanists, with so much disdain for what is traditional woman's work?
I'm not disdainful of a woman filling out a traditional, homebound role. If they want to commit themselves to that, then that's wonderful and I'm happy for them. I'm disdainful of a lack of freedom for women to choose what they want to do.

BucEyedPea
09-16-2010, 05:51 PM
I'm not disdainful of a woman filling out a traditional, homebound role. If they want to commit themselves to that, then that's wonderful and I'm happy for them. I'm disdainful of a lack of freedom for women to choose what they want to do.

Yeah, but back then it was the conditions of their lives that dictated thatónot oppression by men as claimed. That's what I don't like. I think technological advances, inventions and improved living conditions gave them more choices and freedom.

'Hamas' Jenkins
09-16-2010, 06:14 PM
Feminists don't bash men, you retard, they bash a system that allows disproportionate access according to your sex.

FWIW, many feminists, such as the aforementioned Anzaldua, speak voluminously about how men are just as limited by gender roles as are women.

Read The Borderlands in between your RSS Updates of Lew Tacwell. It may prove enlightening.

'Hamas' Jenkins
09-16-2010, 06:18 PM
I think I could.

Just by looking at Modern Library's 100 best fiction and non-fiction of the 20the century lists, the over-whelming majority are written by men.

Joyce, Hemingway, Fitzgerald, Orwell, Steinbeck, Lawrence, James, Bellow, Waugh, Faulkner, Huxley, Mailer, Conrad, Lewis.

Not many women can compete to that degree of significance and importance. Woolf comes closest. Wharton, Cather, Stein and O'Connor are strong showings. But they aren't read outside of specialized college English classes.

However, it's not like the 20th century saw the complete opening up of women's opportunities for all women, to the degree of men in similiar circumstances. It wasn't until midway through the century when women were going to class at Harvard, not Radcliffe, at Notre Dame, not Saint Mary's, at Yale, not Smith.

You do realize that women weren't even really considered for acceptance into the traditional western canon until the 1960s and 70s, right?

You mention Woolf. You might want to read A Room of One's Own and think about it as a conceit.