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Tribal Warfare
09-18-2010, 11:11 PM
Chiefs have to let Charles carry more of the load (http://www.kansascity.com/2010/09/18/v-print/2233763/chiefs-have-to-let-charles-carry.html)
By SAM MELLINGER
The Kansas City Star

CLEVELAND | The first game of the rest of the Chiefs season comes today, a starved fan base scheduling a weekend around figuring out just what to expect the rest of this fall. So much is riding on this. So much of it depends on how much the Chiefs ride Jamaal Charles.

Beating the Chargers on national TV got everyone’s attention. Beating the Browns would knock off some remaining skepticism, and either way, how the Chiefs use their best player will go a long way toward developing confidence or frustration.

In other words, give Charles the ball. A lot.

Charles and Thomas Jones each got 11 carries last week, and coach Todd Haley is giving no indication that he’ll feature his more productive back today. Too bad.

“From the standpoint of the competition and the things going on there,” Haley says, “I think that’s going in the right direction. Has been, and will continue to.”

Haley stresses that last week’s sloppy conditions overhauled strategy in every way, so he gets something of a pass, depending on how often Charles is used today.

If Charles didn’t play for the Chiefs, we’d all look at this offense and think it needed someone exactly like him. The Chiefs are underutilizing one of the NFL’s best weapons. We’ll get to the statistical proof soon, which will only aggravate and lead fans to any number of theories that carry less-than-pure implications:

Maybe the coaches don’t trust him. Maybe the front office is stubborn and prefers Thomas Jones because he’s “their” guy. Maybe they believe Charles needs the motivation, or can’t be fully trusted.

Whatever. For all their ego, Haley and GM Scott Pioli have a history of ignoring status for productivity when it comes to the depth chart. Haley has said he’d “be a fool” to not give more carries to the more productive back, which is a good thing because the Chiefs need what Charles does.

Charles has 172 carries for 1,060 yards in the Chiefs’ last nine games. That 6.16 yards per carry is the NFL’s best. Only Tennessee’s Chris Johnson has more yards. Charles has seven plays of at least 40 yards in those nine games, more than all his teammates combined.

An advanced metric called Defense-adjusted Yards Above Replacement on the terrific Football Outsiders website ranked Charles the fourth-most productive back in football last year, ahead of St. Louis’ Steven Jackson and Minnesota’s Adrian Peterson, among others.

Any team could use that, of course, but especially one with a frumpy quarterback who struggles throwing downfield. Dexter McCluster could be one of the league’s best returners, but until he produces on offense, Charles is the Chiefs’ only proven big-play threat.

The Chiefs need big plays to score. Charles makes big plays. This really shouldn’t be complicated.

There is symbolism in Charles not getting a carry against the Chargers until the final minutes of the first quarter, and then ripping off a 56-yard touchdown run on his first touch.

The Chiefs finished with 197 yards of offense, and Charles had more than half of them. Even if you take away his long run, Charles had a slightly better per-carry average than Jones, and the sloppy conditions would theoretically favor Jones’ style.

Think of it this way: if the Browns could somehow dictate the Chiefs’ offensive game plan today, don’t you think they’d want to see as little of Charles as possible?

None of this is meant to diminish Jones, one of the NFL’s most productive running backs the last three seasons. Jones is particularly good for tough yards, short third-down conversions, and besides, the Chiefs have a better pair of running backs than all but a small handful of teams.

But the point is that the Chiefs have an opportunity here to turn a week-one surprise into real momentum. Since 1978, 66 percent of teams that started 2-0 made the playoffs. The Browns are a bad team possibly playing without their starting quarterback — though, really, is playing without Jake Delhomme a hindrance? — and coming off a loss to the bad Buccaneers.

Win today, and who knows? The NFL is America’s sports king in part because teams can go 4-12 one year and make the playoffs the next, especially ones that play in bad divisions.

And right now, there is no doubt that Charles gives the Chiefs the best chance of winning, especially as long as Chiefs offensive coordinator Charlie Weis is still “fixing” the quarterback.

Charles is the offense’s Ferrari, and the Chiefs are using him like a Buick. Their chance at turning a surprise start into something more significant is directly tied to how much they rely on Charles.

Haley and Weis can point to the conditions and score in justifying Charles only getting 11 carries last week. There’s no such excuse this week, especially against a Browns defense that gave up 119 yards rushing last week — and 154 to Charles last season.

If Charles continues to outperform Jones while getting the same opportunities, the fans’ aggravation and conspiracy theories will justifiably grow.

-King-
09-18-2010, 11:12 PM
Thank God Mellinger straightened that issue out. Before this article, I was a strong advocated for Charles getting less carries. Whew!

keg in kc
09-18-2010, 11:23 PM
Charles was the victim of bad field conditions and poor offensive execution. It's hard to really feature anybody when your team goes 1 for 11 on third down, only 3 of your team's 13 possessions go for more than 3 plays and you run a total of 49 plays for the entire game (of which Charles touched the ball just under a quarter of the time). More sustained drives (or, well, any sustained drives) will mean more touches for Charles.

Saccopoo
09-19-2010, 12:02 AM
I thought Haley and Weis called a solid game. It was a fucking monsoon that demanded a power running game to start. Jones has a history of holding onto the ball. Charles does not, at least to a certain extent. It was wet. The ball is wet. You give it to Jones, who has been a stud for a very long time as running backs go, and establish the ground game in slop. Once that happens, you let Charles come in and bust a couple once the defense gets tight in the box.

Besides, Charles is build like a stick man versus Jones who is thick and muscled. You really want Charles carrying it 30 times a game against 315 lb. defensive linemen and 250 linebackers? Set the guy up, then let him take the scapel to their heart.

thurman merman
09-19-2010, 12:07 AM
But, but, Thomas Jones got 1400 yards last year!

milkman
09-19-2010, 04:04 AM
Charles was the victim of bad field conditions and poor offensive execution. It's hard to really feature anybody when your team goes 1 for 11 on third down, only 3 of your team's 13 possessions go for more than 3 plays and you run a total of 49 plays for the entire game (of which Charles touched the ball just under a quarter of the time). More sustained drives (or, well, any sustained drives) will mean more touches for Charles.

The number of touches isn't a problem if you start your best player, rather than wait to bring him in after your power back wear the defense down.

That strategy only works if your offense gets some first downs and your power back actually has the opportunity to wear a defense down.

And this game did not start in a monsoon, as sacofshit suggests in the post following.
The weather conditions at the start of the game were fair.

BigMeatballDave
09-19-2010, 05:35 AM
Their LBs are slow. CHarles may break a few long ones if he can get past their front 4.

Shogun
09-19-2010, 05:50 AM
Besides, Charles is build like a stick man versus Jones who is thick and muscled. You really want Charles carrying it 30 times a game against 315 lb. defensive linemen and 250 linebackers? Set the guy up, then let him take the scapel to their heart.

That was beautiful man

SenselessChiefsFan
09-19-2010, 06:07 AM
Charles is electric. There is no doubt that he is one of the elite play makers on the team.

That said, Jones is a better blocker. And, more of a load to take down. I don't have a problem with him starting.

CupidStunt
09-19-2010, 06:19 AM
Haley can get away with it as long as the Chiefs are winning. If and when they don't, he'll rightfully get a ton of criticism, and I hope some of it comes from Pioli.

threebag02
09-19-2010, 06:32 AM
If Charles keeps producing at the level we have seen and hunger for. It will only force piolis hand and force a trade so we can get back to the right 53 not the right one that he didn't choose. If Charles was piolis guy it would be different on the field.

michaelj_58
09-19-2010, 06:33 AM
i would give jc more carries,but i would be cautious about it though.

Hog Farmer
09-19-2010, 06:45 AM
We were one turnover away from losing last week. Haley played it smart. I can see a plan as mikman said to wear down a defense with Jones and throw Charles in to run for the goal line while they are sucking wind. This week we'll get to see what McCluster brings to the table also. I'm fucking excited. Come on noon time !!!!!!

DeezNutz
09-19-2010, 06:50 AM
It's ok if Charles doesn't start. Sometimes it's wise not to utilize your best players. /CP '10

Reerun_KC
09-19-2010, 07:07 AM
It's ok if Charles doesn't start. Sometimes it's wise not to utilize your best players. /CP '10

I think they should use Charles like Herm used LJ... Charles should see 30-35 carries a game...

Fuck him if he fumbles and cant stay healthy... Throw his weak ass to the curb when we break him and go get another...

I would run Charles dick in to the dirt, use him up this year or by the end of next and get another back in the draft.

Haley is stupid for not taking this approach.

the Talking Can
09-19-2010, 07:15 AM
all the punting we did loosened up the Chargers defense, making it easy for Charles....



i hope we don't bring in him until the last series before halftime against Cleveland

DeezNutz
09-19-2010, 07:26 AM
i hope we don't bring in him until the last series before halftime against Cleveland

Good thinking. Save him for when we're competitive.

suds79
09-19-2010, 07:27 AM
It's silly that an article like this has to even be written.

By the time Jamaal got in the game (our best offensive player) we spotted the Chargers 7 points.

Didn't hurt the Chiefs that much because they won but the backlash will be huge if the Chiefs lose Jamaal has another 11 carry performance. (probably with a 5+ YPC average also) I hope Todd is ready for it.


Lets see how much we spot the Browns before we start to play our best player this game?

Just get the guy at least 15 carries a game. That's not asking for too much right now.

the Talking Can
09-19-2010, 07:32 AM
I understand why we plan on benching our best offense player for an entire quarter...


...our QB is so good he doesn't need the help, plus he can carry the team without having to worry about Charles getting hit and falling to pieces as if he were made of legos...

DeezNutz
09-19-2010, 07:35 AM
I think we should consider encasing Charles in carbonite and allowing Cassel to come get him in disguise when this team is ready to compete.

Alternatively, we could allow JC to room with Ted Williams for a little bit.

the Talking Can
09-19-2010, 07:37 AM
I think we should consider encasing Charles in carbonite and allowing Cassel to come get him in disguise when this team is ready to compete.

Alternatively, we could allow JC to room with Ted Williams for a little bit.

or, maybe we need a shrink ray

McCluster can field kicks, play RB, and be Wes Welker without fear of injury per the board....Charles' problem may be that he is too big...

DeezNutz
09-19-2010, 07:39 AM
McCluster can field kicks, play RB, and be Wes Welker without fear of injury per the board....Charles' problem may be that he is too big...

He's a wiry 160. Like a feral cat. One that a sumbitch like FAX would never consider mowing over at midnight in a residential neighborhood.

the Talking Can
09-19-2010, 07:43 AM
I think we should only use Charles on plays were the probability of him running for a TD is more than the likelihood of Weis having turkey gravy stains on his underwear...


...which means some weeks Charles just may not play

Shaid
09-19-2010, 07:51 AM
I think they should use Charles like Herm used LJ... Charles should see 30-35 carries a game...

**** him if he fumbles and cant stay healthy... Throw his weak ass to the curb when we break him and go get another...

I would run Charles dick in to the dirt, use him up this year or by the end of next and get another back in the draft.

Haley is stupid for not taking this approach.

ROFL

Marcellus
09-19-2010, 08:08 AM
He would be most effective if they made him inactive for every other game.

Coogs
09-19-2010, 08:08 AM
I really would like to see Charles run on 1st and 2nd down, and let Jones come in and convert the 3rd and short... as opposed to Jones run the ball on 1st and 2nd down and have Charles come in and try to convert the 3rd and 6.

Marcellus
09-19-2010, 08:09 AM
I bet they are waiting until week 9 to cut Jones and make Charles the feature back. Worked great last year.

COchief
09-19-2010, 08:29 AM
I think they should use Charles like Herm used LJ... Charles should see 30-35 carries a game...

**** him if he fumbles and cant stay healthy... Throw his weak ass to the curb when we break him and go get another...

I would run Charles dick in to the dirt, use him up this year or by the end of next and get another back in the draft.

Haley is stupid for not taking this approach.

Quite possibly the dumbest single post I have ever read on CP, and that is saying something. Break JC down for an 8-8 season instead of preserving him and prolonging his career so he will be useful when the Chiefs actually have a chance to contend in 2011 or 2012?

Nice retard.

KC Tattoo
09-19-2010, 08:30 AM
Last year the more Charles carried the rock the better he got in a game, iirc.

We wouldn't be shit with out Charles this year. He needs to play more & there should be no more excuses. Charles>Jones.

milkman
09-19-2010, 08:35 AM
Quite possibly the dumbest single post I have ever read on CP, and that is saying something. Break JC down for an 8-8 season instead of preserving him and prolonging his career so he will be useful when the Chiefs actually have a chance to contend in 2011 or 2012?

Nice retard.

I think he was being sarcastic.

He somehow thinks that those of us that believe that Charles should start ahead of Jones and get more touches are saying that he should get 30 touches a game.

That's the kind of idiocy you get from someone that has the IQ of a chimp with his head up it's ass.

Cus you know, more than 11 touches=30.

Baby Lee
09-19-2010, 08:39 AM
Quite possibly the dumbest single post I have ever read on CP, and that is saying something. Break JC down for an 8-8 season instead of preserving him and prolonging his career so he will be useful when the Chiefs actually have a chance to contend in 2011 or 2012?

Nice retard.

http://www.outdoorswallpaper.com/images/wmwallpapers/Fish-Hooked-1.jpeg

petegz28
09-19-2010, 08:47 AM
http://www.outdoorswallpaper.com/images/wmwallpapers/Fish-Hooked-1.jpeg

LMAO

Mr. Laz
09-19-2010, 08:51 AM
which one of you retards is sam mellinger?

COchief
09-19-2010, 08:59 AM
http://www.outdoorswallpaper.com/images/wmwallpapers/Fish-Hooked-1.jpeg

I feel better falling for a troll than having someone that stupid roaming the planet and telling strangers they are a Chiefs fan.

LaChapelle
09-19-2010, 08:59 AM
Ya know the 1 for 11 on 3rd downs could have made for a wonderful article on the Special Teams keeping Sproles under control
but controversy sells - oh wait nobody buys newspapers anyway

milkman
09-19-2010, 09:01 AM
Ya know the 1 for 11 on 3rd downs could have made for a wonderful article on the Special Teams keeping Sproles under control
but controversy sells - oh wait nobody buys newspapers anyway

I've said this before, but in watching Sproles last year, I see a guy that I believe is becoming worn by overuse.

the Talking Can
09-19-2010, 09:02 AM
I feel better falling for a troll than having someone that stupid roaming the planet and telling strangers they are a Chiefs fan.

:doh!:

Reerun_KC
09-19-2010, 09:22 AM
Quite possibly the dumbest single post I have ever read on CP, and that is saying something. Break JC down for an 8-8 season instead of preserving him and prolonging his career so he will be useful when the Chiefs actually have a chance to contend in 2011 or 2012?

Nice retard.

It was pure sarcasm. I am all for charles touching the ball 15+ times a game. I really don't care if he is the feature back or not. It's a team sport.

There are plenty of things to crag about in the media towards the chiefs. Basically this is more of kc media insightful reporting tryin to make something out of nothing. As a chiefs fan this article is absolutely embarrassing to the fans and city of kc.

Reerun_KC
09-19-2010, 09:25 AM
I've said this before, but in watching Sproles last year, I see a guy that I believe is becoming worn by overuse.

Charles can and will play a huge roll in this offense. No need to go full herm on him 2 games in.

milkman
09-19-2010, 09:30 AM
Charles can and will play a huge roll in this offense. No need to go full herm on him 2 games in.

Once again.

Reading comprehension-1
You-0

Mr. Laz
09-19-2010, 09:35 AM
History tells us that Charles will just NOT last if you use him that much. Hell, even bigger backs don't tend to last long if they get too many carries.

Clearly Charles is better than Jones in this offense but we have to suck it up and continue to use Jones if we want Charles to have anything left in 2 years when we are ready to compete in the playoffs.

accept it,deal with it, move on

milkman
09-19-2010, 09:38 AM
History tells us that Charles will just NOT last if you use him that much. Hell, even bigger backs don't tend to last long if they get too many carries.

Clearly Charles is better than Jones in this offense but we have to suck it up and continue to use Jones if we want Charles to have anything left in 2 years when we are ready to compete in the playoffs.

accept it,deal with it, move on

How many touches should Charles get in a game in this offense this year, in your opinion?

Coogs
09-19-2010, 09:47 AM
How many touches should Charles get in a game in this offense this year, in your opinion?

I know you didn't ask for mine, but I think right around the 20 mark. That is roughly what Marcus Allen got for the Raiders in his heyday with the Raiders, and Allen's running style is who I am reminded of when I watch Charles. 16 to 17 rushes, and 3 to 4 passes would be just about right.

milkman
09-19-2010, 09:49 AM
I know you didn't ask for mine, but I think right around the 20 mark. That is roughly what Marcus Allen got for the Raiders in his heyday with the Raiders, and Allen's running style is who I am reminded of when I watch Charles. 16 to 17 rushes, and 3 to 4 passes would be just about right.

Who do you think should be starting?

Charles or Jones?

Mr. Laz
09-19-2010, 09:54 AM
How many touches should Charles get in a game in this offense this year, in your opinion?
depends on what type of defense we are facing

if we are facing a defense that is really beating people up then Jones gets more carries. Let's be honest, Jones is expendable. Also depends on how many offense plays we have ... against the chargers we didn't have many.

50/50 split works for me

But against some defense Charles will be able to us his speed to really gash them so then he gets more carries.

as for specific numbers, 10 to 20 touches per game probably. I would really rather avoid giving him more than 20 touches unless we get into a game that actually means something.

Mr. Laz
09-19-2010, 09:56 AM
Who do you think should be starting?

Charles or Jones?
i know you didn't ask me ... but imo it's meaningless about who gets labeled starter, completely irrelevant.

Coogs
09-19-2010, 09:59 AM
Who do you think should be starting?

Charles or Jones?

Charles... but again only 20 or so touches. I think the threat of Charles opens up all the offense more than Jones would. Play action was fairly effective last 8 games last season.

Reerun_KC
09-19-2010, 10:00 AM
Who do you think should be starting?

Charles or Jones?
Who cares who starts. What difference does it make? You can't be this petty can u?

milkman
09-19-2010, 10:04 AM
depends on what type of defense we are facing

if we are facing a defense that is really beating people up then Jones gets more carries. Let's be honest, Jones is expendable. Also depends on how many offense plays we have ... against the chargers we didn't have many.

50/50 split works for me

But against some defense Charles will be able to us his speed to really gash them so then he gets more carries.

as for specific numbers, 10 to 20 touches per game probably. I would really rather avoid giving him more than 20 touches unless we get into a game that actually means something.

i know you didn't ask me ... but imo it's meaningless about who gets labeled starter, completely irrelevant.

Now, find a post anywhere where anyone says, seriously, that Charles should get more than 20-25 touches a game.

But who starts does make a difference.

Charles had the vision and speed to make things happen, and this line as constructed is a better fit to his skillset.

You start Jones and continue to get the same results as Monday Night, 3 and outs, you will find yourself in 7-0, 14-0 holes that you won't be able to dig out of game in and game out.

Charles gives you the best chance to move the chains and put points on the board early.

Get him involved early, and you also have a chance to get Jones involved early.

Keep trotting Jones out there for three and outs, you end up not getting Charles into the game until the end of the first qtr.

It's a losing strategy.

milkman
09-19-2010, 10:05 AM
Who cares who starts. What difference does it make? You can't be this petty can u?

It makes a big difference.

Nothing petty about it.

See my prvious post.

Reerun_KC
09-19-2010, 10:09 AM
Alright, see you points. Will discuss more later.

Time to turn off the laptop and get ready to enjoy the games.

Coogs
09-19-2010, 10:12 AM
Time to turn off the laptop and get ready to enjoy the games.

I pretty much have to do this to enjoy the game too. :thumb:

Mr. Laz
09-19-2010, 10:12 AM
Now, find a post anywhere where anyone says, seriously, that Charles should get more than 20-25 touches a game.
Charles got 12 touches last week, 11 carries and 1 reception, in a game where we didn't have many offensive plays at all.

People are freaking out, why? Because Charles should of gotten 5 more touches?

Blame that on Weis/Haley turning into complete pussies about passing the ball. You gain 2/3 more first downs by not running the run,run,run,punt offense and Charles gets another 2/3 carries and another couple receptions and he's is right where he should be imo.

as for putting Charles out there earlier ... fair enough. Imo Charles should be out there for every 3rd down/passing down except for a power situation.

milkman
09-19-2010, 10:17 AM
Charles got 12 touches last week, 11 carries and 1 reception, in a game where we didn't have many offensive plays at all.

People are freaking out, why? Because Charles should of gotten 5 more touches?

Blame that on Weis/Haley turning into complete pussies about passing the ball. You gain 2/3 more first downs by not running the run,run,run,punt offense and Charles gets another 2/3 carries and another couple receptions and he's is right where he should be imo.

as for putting Charles out there earlier ... fair enough. Imo Charles should be out there for every 3rd down/passing down except for a power situation.

Those five more touches might have been the difference between the Chiefs going three and out in thier first two or three possessions and falling behind 7-0 to begin with.

Mr. Laz
09-19-2010, 10:20 AM
Those five more touches might have been the difference between the Chiefs going three and out in thier first two or three possessions and falling behind 7-0 to begin with.
so you are pissed off because you want Charles' 15 touches to happen in the 1st quarter to set the tone?

Thomas Jones gets all the carries in the 4th quarter?

speed first/power last?
power first/speed last?


:shrug:

BigChiefFan
09-19-2010, 10:22 AM
I like the approach they are taking. Wear 'em down with Thomas and then catch them off guard with Charles and his speed.

milkman
09-19-2010, 10:23 AM
so you are pissed off because you want Charles' 15 touches to happen in the 1st quarter to set the tone?

Thomas Jones gets all the carries in the 4th quarter?

speed first/power last?
power first/speed last?


:shrug:

No, Laz, I'm not saying I want to get all of Charles touches in the first qrtr.

I'm saying let's get him out there early and get some of his touches, 4 or 5, early, to give the Chiefs offense a running start.

You move the chains, bring in Jones and get him involved early also.

boogblaster
09-19-2010, 10:35 AM
the one-two punch isn't a bad thing

Mr. Laz
09-19-2010, 10:37 AM
No, Laz, I'm not saying I want to get all of Charles touches in the first qrtr.

I'm saying let's get him out there early and get some of his touches, 4 or 5, early, to give the Chiefs offense a running start.

You move the chains, bring in Jones and get him involved early also.
no problem with that at all

milkman
09-19-2010, 10:43 AM
no problem with that at all


That's like twice in the last three months we've reached an agreement on something.

It's getting to be a habit.

the Talking Can
09-19-2010, 10:45 AM
You start your best players.


there is no counter argument to that