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Direckshun
09-22-2010, 08:21 AM
Republicans held their filibuster yesterday to filibuster something else into oblivion: the Dream Act, one of the solutions to illegal immigration that virtually all people who aren't demogogues or talk radio adherents would agree to.

Parents immigrate illegally to this country, bringing their children with them -- children that have no choice in the matter. Often times these children don't even know they're illegal immigrants until they apply for a driver's license.

So now because of a choice they didn't make, they are now illegals under threat of deportation.

The Dream Act tries to resolve this by giving these children a legit path to citizenship that involves temporary legal status, then full citizenshp so long as they maintain a clean criminal record, graduate from high school, and either complete two years of college or military service.

The act has been supported by the military for a long time, under Democratic and Republican administrations, and it would save Americans billions every year as deporting costs a shit ton of money, and these kids are 100% victims of circumstance.

Republicans, for the 5th time I think, have filibustered the Dream Act. Isn't this a libertarian, conservative idea? Pro-military? Fiscally sound?

ClevelandBronco
09-22-2010, 08:25 AM
Your opinions are not facts.

Direckshun
09-22-2010, 08:27 AM
Your opinions are not facts.

Dispute any of these facts:

1. The children of illegal immigrants did not make the choice to come here.

2. Their illegal status keeps them in society's shadows as a result.

3. We could make tens of billions in putting them on a fair path to citizenship.

4. The military has heartily supported the Dream Act under Republican and Democratic administrations.

petegz28
09-22-2010, 08:28 AM
This was hardly a solution and more of a free amnesty. I have said and would still say 4 years of military service would qualify for citizenship for only THAT person, imo. But the whole college thing is bunk. Secondly, why did he have to try and sneak it into a defense bill?

petegz28
09-22-2010, 08:29 AM
Dispute any of these facts:

1. The children of illegal immigrants did not make the choice to come here.

2. Their illegal status keeps them in society's shadows as a result.

3. We could make tens of billions in putting them on a fair path to citizenship.

4. The military has heartily supported the Dream Act under Republican and Democratic administrations.

Once again Direckshun wants emoitionaly based legislation.

Direckshun
09-22-2010, 08:31 AM
This was hardly a solution and more of a free amnesty. I have said and would still say 4 years of military service would qualify for citizenship for only THAT person, imo. But the whole college thing is bunk. Secondly, why did he have to try and sneak it into a defense bill?

Certainly we can agree that some people deserve amnesty. Such as people who had no choice in coming here and whose lifes would be turned upside down by sending them home. Especially when keeping them makes our military stronger, and saves us billions. I fail to see what these kids did wrong.

That second part is a process complaint. Are you saying you'd support it if it were stand alone? That's what I thought.

Direckshun
09-22-2010, 08:32 AM
Once again Direckshun wants emoitionaly based legislation.

I don't really think it's emotional. I think it's ethically dubious not to act. Which is kind of what legislation is about.

Direckshun
09-22-2010, 08:32 AM
Once again Direckshun wants emoitionaly based legislation.

Dispute any of my facts, by the way.

Because you can't.

BucEyedPea
09-22-2010, 08:33 AM
Dispute any of these facts:

1. The children of illegal immigrants did not make the choice to come here.

2. Their illegal status keeps them in society's shadows as a result.

3. We could make tens of billions in putting them on a fair path to citizenship.

4. The military has heartily supported the Dream Act under Republican and Democratic administrations.

So. It's the value you place on these points as good or bad/right or wrong. That's what's opinion.

BucEyedPea
09-22-2010, 08:33 AM
I don't really think it's emotional. I think it's ethically dubious not to act. Which is kind of what legislation is about.
As I posted above, and as this post proves my point, it has to do with YOUR values and feelings that those facts should have any bearing for us to care about.

petegz28
09-22-2010, 08:34 AM
Certainly we can agree that some people deserve amnesty. Such as people who had no choice in coming here and whose lifes would be turned upside down by sending them home. Especially when keeping them makes our military stronger, and saves us billions. I fail to see what these kids did wrong.

That second part is a process complaint. Are you saying you'd support it if it were stand alone? That's what I thought.

No, we cannot agree on that. That falls on their parents and I refuse to accept the role of cleaning up their mess. Save me the whole, keeping our military stronger rant. That's BS and you know it. If they said a person who serves in the military would earn citizenship for themselves only I would agree to that. That doesn't mean the entire family gets citizenship because of it.

petegz28
09-22-2010, 08:35 AM
Dispute any of my facts, by the way.

Because you can't.

Uh yea, I can. And did. You just don't want to hear it. We aren't the Nanny of Mexico despite how much you may want us to be.

Direckshun
09-22-2010, 08:36 AM
No, we cannot agree on that.

Oh, I think we can.

Fast forward two sentences:

If they said a person who serves in the military would earn citizenship for themselves only I would agree to that.

How is that not amnesty, Pete?

Because it sounds like you agree with me that some people may deserve it.

Direckshun
09-22-2010, 08:37 AM
Uh yea, I can. And did. You just don't want to hear it. We aren't the Nanny of Mexico despite how much you may want us to be.

1. The children of illegal immigrants did not make the choice to come here. You didn't dispute this.

2. Their illegal status keeps them in society's shadows as a result. You didnt' dispute this.

3. We could make tens of billions in putting them on a fair path to citizenship. You didn't dispute this.

4. The military has heartily supported the Dream Act under Republican and Democratic administrations. You didn't dispute this.

petegz28
09-22-2010, 08:39 AM
Oh, I think we can.

Fast forward two sentences:



How is that not amnesty, Pete?

Because it sounds like you agree with me that some people may deserve it.

How is it not Amnesty? Because they are actually having to do something to gain citizenship. Not just getting it carte blanche. Those "some" are those who choose to serve the country in the military. If you are willing to put your life on the line for my freedoms I will grant you citizenship in return.

Again, the entire college thing is as bunk as bunk can get.

petegz28
09-22-2010, 08:41 AM
1. The children of illegal immigrants did not make the choice to come here. You didn't dispute this.

2. Their illegal status keeps them in society's shadows as a result. You didnt' dispute this.

3. We could make tens of billions in putting them on a fair path to citizenship. You didn't dispute this.

4. The military has heartily supported the Dream Act under Republican and Democratic administrations. You didn't dispute this.

I can,

it's the parents fault and not our responsibility to clean up their mess.

They choose to live in the shadows by being here illegally, again, parent's fault, not ours.

There is no proof that we would make 10's of billions of $'s. That's you just throwing out more spew

I have agreed about the military and citizenship. So STFU. you're 1 out of 4.

Direckshun
09-22-2010, 08:41 AM
How is it not Amnesty? Because they are actually having to do something to gain citizenship. Not just getting it carte blanche. Those "some" are those who choose to serve the country in the military. If you are willing to put your life on the line for my freedoms I will grant you citizenship in return.

Again, the entire college thing is as bunk as bunk can get.

So include military service, exclude college, and you'd be on board?

Sounds like we're pretty close to the same place.

Donger
09-22-2010, 08:41 AM
Because it's seen by many as a form of amnesty. I thought that was obvious. And, it is.

alpha_omega
09-22-2010, 08:42 AM
'Cause the name sucks. The "Dream Act"...pffft...they should have called it something else.

petegz28
09-22-2010, 08:42 AM
So include military service, exclude college, and you'd be on board?

Sounds like we're pretty close to the same place.

I think we are far away. I know what game you are trying to play and it won't work. If Jose serves 4 years in the military, Joese's wife and kids that are here are still here illegally.

BucEyedPea
09-22-2010, 08:43 AM
1. The children of illegal immigrants did not make the choice to come here. You didn't dispute this.
This is true but so what? It's not relevant for us. Your position is based on sympathy which is emotion.

2. Their illegal status keeps them in society's shadows as a result. You didnt' dispute this.
This is true but there's nothing wrong with that; is not relevant for US citizens and we don't have to care if they broke the law.
Again, your position is based on sympathy. No way to develop policy or run a country.

3. We could make tens of billions in putting them on a fair path to citizenship. You didn't dispute this.
I have not seen you make a case for this but again....So what?
It's still not relevant to those who feel they should not break the law being here as it encourages more of it.

4. The military has heartily supported the Dream Act under Republican and Democratic administrations. You didn't dispute this.[/quote]
Irrelevant. Also political leaders are not in sync with most Americans.
I'm sure the military likes getting more to fight as it allows less American lives to be lost and allows for more military interventions without having the political fallout as Americans will not put up with permanent warfare. The army should be made up of legal citizens who care about this country over getting something personally as their motive. I know many legal Americans enter for the benefits but they are still Americans first. I am against a military made up of foreigners especially those who break our laws as the first thing they did entering here. I think it's dangerous.


Bottom line: You feel sorry for them, but I just bet you like getting more voters who will vote hard left D too.

Direckshun
09-22-2010, 08:44 AM
I can,

it's the parents fault and not our responsibility to clean up their mess.

You still haven't disputed my argument there.

It's not the kid's fault. Soon as you want to dispute that, get back to me.

They choose to live in the shadows by being here illegally, again, parent's fault, not ours.

So you will not dispute that they have to live in the shadows.

Again, soon as you want to challenge that, I'm right here.

There is no proof that we would make 10's of billions of $'s. That's you just throwing out more spew

Congratulations, you've officially disputed something I've said.

Deportation of a single individual costs us north of $20,000. 2.1 million people would qualify for the Dream Act. Do the math.

Direckshun
09-22-2010, 08:45 AM
I think we are far away. I know what game you are trying to play and it won't work. If Jose serves 4 years in the military, Joese's wife and kids that are here are still here illegally.

I don't know what game I'm playing. I believe that a path to citizenship should exist for these people, you do too. Our paths sound fairly similar.

Dave Lane
09-22-2010, 08:46 AM
I'm with the republicans on this one. Doesn't matter to me if you are born in Mexico the US or Kenya you are only a citizen if you parents are.

petegz28
09-22-2010, 08:46 AM
You still haven't disputed my argument there.

It's not the kid's fault. Soon as you want to dispute that, get back to me.



So you will not dispute that they have to live in the shadows.

Again, soon as you want to challenge that, I'm right here.



Congratulations, you've officially disputed something I've said.

Deportation of a single individual costs us north of $20,000. 2.1 million people would qualify for the Dream Act. Do the math.


Here we go again, emotionally based argument. "It's not the kid's fault so we should play the parent and take care of them.".

Sorry, there are enough bad parents here legally we have to deal with.

They live in the shadows because they are here illegally. What part of the word illegal do you not get?

Donger
09-22-2010, 08:46 AM
I don't know what game I'm playing. I believe that a path to citizenship should exist for these people, you do too. Our paths sound fairly similar.

It already does. Go back to the country of origin and apply for legal residence.

petegz28
09-22-2010, 08:47 AM
I don't know what game I'm playing. I believe that a path to citizenship should exist for these people, you do too. Our paths sound fairly similar.

A path does exist. It's the same path all the LEGAL immigrants took. Imagine that!!!

Donger
09-22-2010, 08:47 AM
I'm with the republicans on this one. Doesn't matter to me if you are born in Mexico the US or Kenya you are only a citizen if you parents are.

Or, if your illegal mother spits you out on US soil. Don't forget that.

ROYC75
09-22-2010, 08:48 AM
Certainly we can agree that some people deserve amnesty. Such as people who had no choice in coming here and whose lifes would be turned upside down by sending them home. Especially when keeping them makes our military stronger, and saves us billions. I fail to see what these kids did wrong.

That second part is a process complaint. Are you saying you'd support it if it were stand alone? That's what I thought.

How about the illegals that become terrorist later in life?

Bottom line, what right do they really have have ?

America, Home of the Free, shouldn't mean we turn our head, hold our noses and allow anybody, everybody to come into the country FREE without proper background searches and going through the legal process.

Garcia Bronco
09-22-2010, 08:51 AM
Republicans held their filibuster yesterday to filibuster something else into oblivion: the Dream Act, one of the solutions to illegal immigration that virtually all people who aren't demogogues or talk radio adherents would agree to.

Parents immigrate illegally to this country, bringing their children with them -- children that have no choice in the matter. Often times these children don't even know they're illegal immigrants until they apply for a driver's license.

So now because of a choice they didn't make, they are now illegals under threat of deportation.

The Dream Act tries to resolve this by giving these children a legit path to citizenship that involves temporary legal status, then full citizenshp so long as they maintain a clean criminal record, graduate from high school, and either complete two years of college or military service.

The act has been supported by the military for a long time, under Democratic and Republican administrations, and it would save Americans billions every year as deporting costs a shit ton of money, and these kids are 100% victims of circumstance.

Republicans, for the 5th time I think, have filibustered the Dream Act. Isn't this a libertarian, conservative idea? Pro-military? Fiscally sound?


Because the Dream Act is a chickenshit idea to a problem that requires throwing these people out of here and sending them back where they belong; Their own country.

ROYC75
09-22-2010, 08:52 AM
This is true but so what? It's not relevant for us. Your position is based on sympathy which is emotion.


This is true but there's nothing wrong with that; is not relevant for US citizens and we don't have to care if they broke the law.
Again, your position is based on sympathy. No way to develop policy or run a country.


I have not seen you make a case for this but again....So what?
It's still not relevant to those who feel they should not break the law being here as it encourages more of it.


Irrelevant. Also political leaders are not in sync with most Americans.
I'm sure the military likes getting more to fight as it allows less American lives to be lost and allows for more military interventions without having the political fallout as Americans will not put up with permanent warfare. The army should be made up of legal citizens who care about this country over getting something personally as their motive. I know many legal Americans enter for the benefits but they are still Americans first. I am against a military made up of foreigners especially those who break our laws as the first thing they did entering here. I think it's dangerous.


Bottom line: You feel sorry for them, but I just bet you like getting more voters who will vote hard left D too.[/QUOTE]


:thumb: Well said, Liberals play politics on emotions, not principals.

Direckshun
09-22-2010, 08:54 AM
Here we go again, emotionally based argument. "It's not the kid's fault so we should play the parent and take care of them.".

Sorry, there are enough bad parents here legally we have to deal with.

They live in the shadows because they are here illegally. What part of the word illegal do you not get?

So you've gone back to disputing precisely zero of the facts I'm presenting.

Good to hear.

From the sounds of it, you agree with me that:

1. It's not the kid's fault they're here illegally.
2. They have to live in the shadows because of it.
3. It would save us money to give these 2.1 million people a path to citizenship.
4. A number of years in the military should be mandated.
5. The military has long supported this idea.

Allow me to welcome you back, Pete the Moderate.

Direckshun
09-22-2010, 08:55 AM
How about the illegals that become terrorist later in life?

What about legals that become terrorists later in life?

Garcia Bronco
09-22-2010, 08:56 AM
1. The children of illegal immigrants did not make the choice to come here.

Doesn't matter, they are still here illegally

2. Their illegal status keeps them in society's shadows as a result.

Most criminals operate this way.

3. We could make tens of billions in putting them on a fair path to citizenship.

There already is a fair path to citizenship here. In fact, this is one of the more forgiving countries regarding immigration and citizenship.

4. The military has heartily supported the Dream Act under Republican and Democratic administrations.

The military supports a bunch of things, this is no indication that it's a good idea.

Direckshun
09-22-2010, 08:57 AM
Because the Dream Act is a chickenshit idea to a problem that requires throwing these people out of here and sending them back where they belong; Their own country.

What if I told you there was a solution that involved keeping the innocents out of the deportation business that our military wanted and would save us tens of billions in costs?

petegz28
09-22-2010, 08:58 AM
So you've gone back to disputing precisely zero of the facts I'm presenting.

Good to hear.

From the sounds of it, you agree with me that:

1. It's not the kid's fault they're here illegally.
2. They have to live in the shadows because of it.
3. It would save us money to give these 2.1 million people a path to citizenship.
4. A number of years in the military should be mandated.
5. The military has long supported this idea.

Allow me to welcome you back, Pete the Moderate.

Yeah, tell yourself whatever you need too. I think my point is clear for all to read in this thread and it seems to be in disagreement for the most part of what you are saying.

And once again, cause I know you are slow in the head, there is a path to citizenship. They just chose not to follow it. And it is not our responsibility to take care of the kids because the parents made a bad choice. Sorry, that is the consequences one suffers when they choose to break the law. We didn't make them sneak into the country, they chose too. They chose to put their kids in that situation, not us.

Direckshun
09-22-2010, 09:00 AM
I'm sure the military likes getting more to fight as it allows less American lives to be lost and allows for more military interventions without having the political fallout as Americans will not put up with permanent warfare.

Actually, the army likes it because: Lt. Col. Margaret Stock: it's a military recruiter's dream candidates for enlistment" because of their "foreign language skills and foreign cultural awareness. A Center for Naval Analyses study concluded that they have lower attrition rates than citizen soldiers. Conservative military scholar Max Boot affirms that it's a huge pool of potential recruits.

Direckshun
09-22-2010, 09:01 AM
1. The children of illegal immigrants did not make the choice to come here.

Doesn't matter, they are still here illegally

Not disputing the fact.

2. Their illegal status keeps them in society's shadows as a result.

Most criminals operate this way.

Not disputing the fact.

3. We could make tens of billions in putting them on a fair path to citizenship.

There already is a fair path to citizenship here. In fact, this is one of the more forgiving countries regarding immigration and citizenship.

Not disputing the fact.

4. The military has heartily supported the Dream Act under Republican and Democratic administrations.

The military supports a bunch of things, this is no indication that it's a good idea.

Not disputing the fact.

Direckshun
09-22-2010, 09:03 AM
Yeah, tell yourself whatever you need too. I think my point is clear for all to read in this thread and it seems to be in disagreement for the most part of what you are saying.

We agree on the following things:

1. It's not the kid's fault they're here illegally.
2. They have to live in the shadows because of it.
3. It would save us money to give these 2.1 million people a path to citizenship.
4. A number of years in the military should be mandated.
5. The military has long supported this idea.

We disagree on what? The number of years in the military, maybe? I think college should be an option, you don't?

Big whoop. We're 95% in agreement. I don't know why that pains you so. LMAO

Donger
09-22-2010, 09:04 AM
Direckshun, you are aware that at one time, the military wanted to remain racial segregated, right?

That's a fact, too, right?

Does that make it a good idea?

Good Lord, you have an amazing propensity for tunnel vision: "Looky! These are facts! See???! Dispute them! I dare you!"

blaise
09-22-2010, 09:06 AM
I don't get it, so then are the parents deported or are they then allowed to stay as well, to take care if the child?

blaise
09-22-2010, 09:08 AM
Yeah, tell yourself whatever you need too. I think my point is clear for all to read in this thread and it seems to be in disagreement for the most part of what you are saying.

And once again, cause I know you are slow in the head, there is a path to citizenship. They just chose not to follow it. And it is not our responsibility to take care of the kids because the parents made a bad choice. Sorry, that is the consequences one suffers when they choose to break the law. We didn't make them sneak into the country, they chose too. They chose to put their kids in that situation, not us.

Yeah I don't really get the angle of "It's no fault of the kid" If your parents get a mortgage by fraud, they don't let the kids keep living in the house because it wasn't their fault the parents were criminals.

ClevelandBronco
09-22-2010, 09:08 AM
Dispute any of these facts:

1. The children of illegal immigrants did not make the choice to come here.

2. Their illegal status keeps them in society's shadows as a result.

3. We could make tens of billions in putting them on a fair path to citizenship.

4. The military has heartily supported the Dream Act under Republican and Democratic administrations.

Once you made an effort to scrub the OP of the opinions you presented as fact, I'll be happy to address the new opinions you've listed above.

Direckshun
09-22-2010, 09:09 AM
I don't get it, so then are the parents deported or are they then allowed to stay as well, to take care if the child?

I'm not sure what you're asking.

If you're 18, I don't know why your parents would need to "stay and take care of" you?

Direckshun
09-22-2010, 09:10 AM
Once you made an effort to scrub the OP of the opinions you presented as fact, I'll be happy to address the new opinions you've listed above.

Dispute anything in my OP and I'll reply. But I can't reply to nothing.

blaise
09-22-2010, 09:10 AM
I'm not sure what you're asking.

If you're 18, I don't know why your parents would need to "stay and take care of" you?

Well the language you used in the opening post is "chiildren" so I assumed we were talking about minors.

Is it just for kids brought here who are now over 18?

Direckshun
09-22-2010, 09:14 AM
Is it just for kids brought here who are now over 18?

18 or older, yes that is my understanding.

Not so unreasonable, isn't it?

ClevelandBronco
09-22-2010, 09:15 AM
Dispute anything in my OP and I'll reply. But I can't reply to nothing.

And I won't reply to disingenuousness.

blaise
09-22-2010, 09:15 AM
You think I'm talking about sending minors into the military? :facepalm:

So the Dream Act is a path to citizenship for children who were brought here and are now 18 and over?

edit- see you answered that.

mlyonsd
09-22-2010, 09:17 AM
Because it's a stupid idea.

Direckshun
09-22-2010, 09:18 AM
And I won't reply to disingenuousness.

Why not? I do it all the time.

Get the sand out of your vagina and set Direckshun The Misinformer straight.

Direckshun
09-22-2010, 09:19 AM
So the Dream Act is a path to citizenship for children who were brought here and are now 18 and over?

edit- see you answered that.

What's not to like?

Donger
09-22-2010, 09:19 AM
So the Dream Act is a path to citizenship for children who were brought here and are now 18 and over?

edit- see you answered that.

A very quick read tells me that the "child" must be between 12 and 35 at the time the law is enacted.

Detoxing
09-22-2010, 09:26 AM
Wow. Same old Ignorant CP responses. What a shocker.

"Yeah! Lets just ship 'em back to Mexico!"

Even though a lot of these people don't even have memories of that shitty country and are so Americanized that they would be victimized out there...ALONE.

Same ol', same ol'. The inability to use common sense and desire to acknowledge that not EVERY situation is the same.

You all just want to bunch them all together.

"They Should pay for their parents mistakes!"

It's funny how a lot of you want to apply that theory to Illegal immigration. Can you apply that to yourself and your children?

petegz28
09-22-2010, 09:28 AM
I'm not sure what you're asking.

If you're 18, I don't know why your parents would need to "stay and take care of" you?

WOW! This coming from the guy who supports an HC bill that says parents can keep their kids on their insurance until they are 26!!!!

Donger
09-22-2010, 09:28 AM
Wow. Same old Ignorant CP responses. What a shocker.

"Yeah! Lets just ship 'em back to Mexico!"

Even though a lot of these people don't even have memories of that shitty country and are so Americanized that they would be victimized out there...ALONE.

Same ol', same ol'. The inability to use common sense and desire to acknowledge that not EVERY situation is the same.

You all just want to bunch them all together.

"They Should pay for their parents mistakes!"

It's funny how a lot of you want to apply that theory to Illegal immigration. Can you apply that to yourself and your children?

No, you got that wrong. The parents should pay for their mistake.

petegz28
09-22-2010, 09:30 AM
Wow. Same old Ignorant CP responses. What a shocker.

"Yeah! Lets just ship 'em back to Mexico!"

Even though a lot of these people don't even have memories of that shitty country and are so Americanized that they would be victimized out there...ALONE.

Same ol', same ol'. The inability to use common sense and desire to acknowledge that not EVERY situation is the same.

You all just want to bunch them all together.

"They Should pay for their parents mistakes!"

It's funny how a lot of you want to apply that theory to Illegal immigration. Can you apply that to yourself and your children?

Yeah, tard. As someone else said earlier, if when I was a child, my parents broke the law then I too suffer the consequences as a result. In this case, they have to get shipped back to Mexico with the parents. Sorry, children are the responsibility of the parent, not the State or Country. As I said earlier, we have enough ignorant parents we deal with already that are here legally. So save the whole "oh, woe is the kids" mantra. They snuck in the country illegally with the kids, they can take them back when they get deported.

Detoxing
09-22-2010, 09:33 AM
No, you got that wrong. The parents should pay for their mistake.

And the parents will. If the parent doesn't deserve to be here, then they'll get deported. Pretty simple.

But this isn't about the parent. You all want to make this about the parent who doesn't speak english.

This isn't about them.

This is about the kids who know nothing but American Culture.

They do not know what it is to be from Mexico.

There is a big difference there.

FishingRod
09-22-2010, 09:35 AM
We agree on the following things:

1. It's not the kid's fault they're here illegally.
2. They have to live in the shadows because of it.
3. It would save us money to give these 2.1 million people a path to citizenship.
4. A number of years in the military should be mandated.
5. The military has long supported this idea.

We disagree on what? The number of years in the military, maybe? I think college should be an option, you don't?

Big whoop. We're 95% in agreement. I don't know why that pains you so. LMAO

I think the problem people are having with your argument is they see no relevance in the "facts" you present.

For example one could also say...


1. Water is wet.

2. when you stand in the rain you will get wet.

3. I think by staying dry one stands less of a chance to catch a cold. You catch a cold you miss work. So water is bad.

4. we should mandate people stay dry

5. The Military is against trench foot.

So because of these reasons those that oppose this Dream thing are bad people.

For what it is worth I have a good deal of sympathy for the illegal immigrants. Many of them like our forefathers are coming here with the hope of bettering their lives and the lives of their families. The country was built on taking advantage if each new group of people willing to do the crap jobs for crap wages with those already here taking full advantage of the fact they didn't have a better option. In the past if people didn't make it... well that is just too bad they didn't make it. Today we have huge government funded programs that take care of those that can't take care of their selves or their family. We either have to drastically cut what is available to those in need or, we need to control the flood of people entering and staying in the country that are unwilling or unable to go through the legal process. It sounds mean but the truth is not always milk and honey and all of us holding hands and singing. A huge portion of American society is stretched as far as they can go but while we don't need everything we have I don't see us giving up our kids football games, bikes, cell phones and all the things we and our children have grown to expect. If we had a smaller more libertarian style government it wouldn't make much difference how many people came to our country because it would be up to them to sink or swim but the reality is that our government and our society for better or worse is and will continue to be more socialistic and eventually the bills have to be paid.

Detoxing
09-22-2010, 09:35 AM
Yeah, tard. As someone else said earlier, if when I was a child, my parents broke the law then I too suffer the consequences as a result. In this case, they have to get shipped back to Mexico with the parents. Sorry, children are the responsibility of the parent, not the State or Country. As I said earlier, we have enough ignorant parents we deal with already that are here legally. So save the whole "oh, woe is the kids" mantra. They snuck in the country illegally with the kids, they can take them back when they get deported.

What consequences would you face? the cops send you with your grandma while daddy serves a few months in jail?

Yeah...cuz that compares being deported to a foreign country with no relatives and means to survive....jack ass

stevieray
09-22-2010, 09:37 AM
And the parents will. If the parent doesn't deserve to be here, then they'll get deported. Pretty simple.

But this isn't about the parent. You all want to make this about the parent who doesn't speak english.

This isn't about them.

This is about the kids who know nothing but American Culture.

They do not know what it is to be from Mexico.

There is a big difference there.

are you a parent?

I know for a fact that that my choices and actions effect my family.

Detoxing
09-22-2010, 09:37 AM
So if your dad gets a DUI, should you get your DL get suspended?

Because that's the logic you all are using.

petegz28
09-22-2010, 09:37 AM
And the parents will. If the parent doesn't deserve to be here, then they'll get deported. Pretty simple.

But this isn't about the parent. You all want to make this about the parent who doesn't speak english.

This isn't about them.

This is about the kids who know nothing but American Culture.

They do not know what it is to be from Mexico.

There is a big difference there.

Too bad! Why is it out problem or responsibility to take custody of the kids? They have parents, their parents made a bad choice and they unfortunately suffer the consequences.

And just a point of note, I would imagine these non-english speaking Mexican parents knew nothing but Mexican culture until they snuck into the country. So there is no difference, you are just trying to cast out excuses using the fate of the children as a basis.

Do you know anyone who was the child of a military parent? Some have lived all over the world. Shit happends, guy.

Detoxing
09-22-2010, 09:38 AM
are you a parent?

I know for a fact that that my choices and actions effect my family.

I am.

But I also know that If i go out and murder someone my shouldn't have to pay the consequences for my actions.

Are they going to put my kid on parole now?

petegz28
09-22-2010, 09:39 AM
So if your dad gets a DUI, should you get your DL get suspended?

Because that's the logic you all are using.

Wrong, if your Dad gets a DUI you will suffer from not having a parent who can't drive you around or is in jail and cannot provide.

If your parents go into default on their home and lose their house should the kids get to stay? As blaise tried to explain to you earlier, it doesn't work that way. Part of being a parent is understanding how your actions effect your family.

petegz28
09-22-2010, 09:40 AM
I am.

But I also know that If i go out and murder someone my shouldn't have to pay the consequences for my actions.



Are they going to put my kid on parole now?

A better question is, is the State or Fed Gov going to provide a Dad while your ass is in jail?

stevieray
09-22-2010, 09:42 AM
I am.

But I also know that If i go out and murder someone my shouldn't have to pay the consequences for my actions.

Are they going to put my kid on parole now?
you go out and murder someone, your kid is gonna go through alot more than parole...that's an emotional life sentence.

think this through.

as a dad, those kids are your responsibility, you make choice to break the law and put them at risk, you've have failed them and put them in harm's way.

Detoxing
09-22-2010, 09:42 AM
Too bad! Why is it out problem or responsibility to take custody of the kids? They have parents, their parents made a bad choice and they unfortunately suffer the consequences.

And just a point of note, I would imagine these non-english speaking Mexican parents knew nothing but Mexican culture until they snuck into the country. So there is no difference, you are just trying to cast out excuses using the fate of the children as a basis.

Do you know anyone who was the child of a military parent? Some have lived all over the world. Shit happends, guy.

How is this YOUR problem?

Who the fuck is talking about the state caring for their children?

Custody?

Get your shit straight dude. We're talking about the DREAM act here, not this shit. Do you even know what the Dream act is?

So if your parents are from another country and you've never been there, are you going to tell me you know what it's like to live in that country?

Get real.

And we're not talking about 6 yr old little kids.

WE're talking about teens and adults who have spent almost all of their lives here.

You're throwing other shit out there that doesn't relate to the topic.

blaise
09-22-2010, 09:42 AM
So if your dad gets a DUI, should you get your DL get suspended?

Because that's the logic you all are using.

No, it's not. The logic is more akin to a kid getting to use a car that his parent stole.
Not that I'm against letting them stay, but your logic is wrong, I think.

Donger
09-22-2010, 09:43 AM
And the parents will. If the parent doesn't deserve to be here, then they'll get deported. Pretty simple.

But this isn't about the parent. You all want to make this about the parent who doesn't speak english.

This isn't about them.

This is about the kids who know nothing but American Culture.

They do not know what it is to be from Mexico.

There is a big difference there.

Are you sure that having a legal child would not be a means to legality for the parent(s)?

It IS about the parents. THEY decided to enter illegally with a child. It is THEIR responsibility.

Detoxing
09-22-2010, 09:45 AM
Wrong, if your Dad gets a DUI you will suffer from not having a parent who can't drive you around or is in jail and cannot provide.

If your parents go into default on their home and lose their house should the kids get to stay? As blaise tried to explain to you earlier, it doesn't work that way. Part of being a parent is understanding how your actions effect your family.

Yeah...that's so comparable.

"Oh my god, dad can't drive me to school, ima have to go take a bus"

It's faulty logic, and you KNOW it.

And if the parent loses the house, they still stay with their family dont they?

There is no comparison that you can make that = being deported to a country that you've never been too and have no means of sustaining.

mlyonsd
09-22-2010, 09:46 AM
So for an illegal kid to stay in country they have to join the army against their will.

Yeah, I can see this is another brilliant dem idea.

petegz28
09-22-2010, 09:48 AM
Yeah...that's so comparable.

"Oh my god, dad can't drive me to school, ima have to go take a bus"

It's faulty logic, and you KNOW it.

And if the parent loses the house, they still stay with their family dont they?

There is no comparison that you can make that = being deported to a country that you've never been too and have no means of sustaining.

See that line I bolded? If the parents get deported the kids go with them and stay with their family. You just shot yourself in the foot with a 12 guage, buddy.

Detoxing
09-22-2010, 09:57 AM
you go out and murder someone, your kid is gonna go through alot more than parole...that's an emotional life sentence.

think this through.

as a dad, those kids are your responsibility, you make choice to break the law and put them at risk, you've have failed them and put them in harm's way.

I understand what you're saying. But that's not the issue on hand.

The DREAM act is for people that have lived here their entire life and have no idea what Mexico is even like.

We're talking about people who have gone through the same schools that your kids have. Watch the same TV programs, idolize the same pop stars and have the same goals. Your daughter's best friend who has been keeping her immigration status a secret becuase she doesn't want to be looked down upon by people like Pete even though she is EXACTLY the same as all of you.

Do you understand? Think about that person.

It's like throwing an American citizen into Mexico and saying, "**** you, your dad is illegal, and even though you've spent 18 years of your 20 yr old self here in the states, we dont care about you"

We're not talking about some spick that doesn't speak english. We're talking about educated people who you wouldn't know the difference if you talked to them.

All they want, is a chance to prove that they can be a productive member of society.

And after all, isn't that the main issue with illegal immigration? The problem with illegals is that they are a drain, right?

RIGHT? Isn't that what this is all about?

They are proposing a bill that requests that they at LEAST HAVE A CHANCE to prove that they can be a productive member of society. If they fail, then they fail and they suffer the consequences.

If they succeed, then WE ALL WIN. We win as a society, and they win as an individual, and now they can go on and lead a productive life.

Right now, no one wants to even give them a chance.

Would you not give your daughters best friend a chance if you found out she was illegal?

They have to live in shadows, become criminals etc, because you don't want to give them a chance.

Going to Mexico is not an option for them, just like it isn't an option for you.

Detoxing
09-22-2010, 09:58 AM
See that line I bolded? If the parents get deported the kids go with them and stay with their family. You just shot yourself in the foot with a 12 guage, buddy.

Dumbass, did you miss my last post?

you have your issues confused. You really do. Im not saying that to be an ass, but you don't know what you're talking about.

Sorry, you just don't.

Go read about the Dream act and the purpose of it.

stevieray
09-22-2010, 10:04 AM
They have to live in shadows, become criminals etc, because you don't want to give them a chance.

Going to Mexico is not an option for them, just like it isn't an option for you.
they have to live in the shadows and become criminals because of choices their parents made...

it has nothing to do with giving someone a chance.

...if my parents illegally moved to another country and got busted, i would fully expect to go back to my native land, considering I would be in the country ILLEGALY, and was not a citizen of said country.
...if someone gets busted, they don't get out of jail time because they have kids, likewise, kids don't get out of being put at risk by their parents being put in jail.

Detoxing
09-22-2010, 10:08 AM
Also, we're talking about maybe 1 million people out of an estimated 12 million?

1/12 Of the illegal immigrants would even be ELIGIBLE for this bill. And then how many of those 1 million will even complete 2 yrs of college or service? Maybe half that?

600,000 people will gain citizenship through this bill?

Seriously?

Some of you are so bullheaded that you can't give less than 1 million deserving people a chance to live the life as adults that they've been aspiring for for as long as they can remember.

Instead you would rather ship them out and ruin there lives.

ClevelandBronco
09-22-2010, 10:08 AM
Let's cut the "live in the shadows" shit. In any number of sanctuary cities such as Denver there are no shadows.

ROYC75
09-22-2010, 10:09 AM
Seriously, whatever happen to personal responsibility with Liberals. Do they feel that it's everybody's position to take care of everyone ?

WOW, that's charity. Charity is good, but it should be an option, not a requirement.

|Zach|
09-22-2010, 10:10 AM
I hate this immigration stuff. I can absolutely see both sides.

stevieray
09-22-2010, 10:10 AM
Instead you would rather ship them out and ruin there lives.

you're trying to shift blame where there is none.

petegz28
09-22-2010, 10:12 AM
Dumbass, did you miss my last post?

you have your issues confused. You really do. Im not saying that to be an ass, but you don't know what you're talking about.

Sorry, you just don't.

Go read about the Dream act and the purpose of it.

In other words you shot yourself in the foot and are not happy about it.

Detoxing
09-22-2010, 10:12 AM
they have to live in the shadows and become criminals because of choices their parents made...

it has nothing to do with giving someone a chance.

...if my parents illegally moved to another country and got busted, i would fully expect to go back to my native land, considering I would be in the country ILLEGALY, and was not a citizen of said country.
...if someone gets busted, they don't get out of jail time because they have kids, likewise, kids don't get out of being put at risk by their parents being put in jail.

You keep going back to that.

What does America pride itself on again? The land of opportunity right? Our whole system is designed for giving people a second chance, yet you want to destroy a 20 yr old's chance of living the life that she has been working for since she was 2 yrs old because her parents fucked up.

SHE didn't fuck up. Her Parents did.

That's terrible logic. It's awful logic.

all they are asking for is a chance o show you that they belong here, because they do. The only difference between them and your kids is a fucking piece of paper, yet you feel they should be sent to suffer in a 3rd world country.

Put the politics aside please and use your common sense.

Detoxing
09-22-2010, 10:13 AM
Seriously, whatever happen to personal responsibility with Liberals. Do they feel that it's everybody's position to take care of everyone ?

WOW, that's charity. Charity is good, but it should be an option, not a requirement.

What the fuck are you talking about? Go join pete and do some reading. No one is talking about taking care of anyone.

JFC :facepalm:

Detoxing
09-22-2010, 10:14 AM
In other words you shot yourself in the foot and are not happy about it.

Have you read yet? Let me know...k?

ClevelandBronco
09-22-2010, 10:14 AM
You keep going back to that.

What does America pride itself on again? The land of opportunity right? Our whole system is designed for giving people a second chance, yet you want to destroy a 20 yr old's chance of living the life that she has been working for since she was 2 yrs old because her parents ****ed up.

SHE didn't **** up. Her Parents did.

That's terrible logic. It's awful logic.

all they are asking for is a chance o show you that they belong here, because they do. The only difference between them and your kids is a ****ing piece of paper, yet you feel they should be sent to suffer in a 3rd world country.

Put the politics aside please and use your common sense.

If you want us to believe that your argument is logical, you'd probably do well to dial down your emotion.

blaise
09-22-2010, 10:14 AM
You keep going back to that.

What does America pride itself on again? The land of opportunity right? Our whole system is designed for giving people a second chance, yet you want to destroy a 20 yr old's chance of living the life that she has been working for since she was 2 yrs old because her parents ****ed up.

SHE didn't **** up. Her Parents did.

That's terrible logic. It's awful logic.

all they are asking for is a chance o show you that they belong here, because they do. The only difference between them and your kids is a ****ing piece of paper, yet you feel they should be sent to suffer in a 3rd world country.

Put the politics aside please and use your common sense.

So, you're ok with deporting the parents or what?

Detoxing
09-22-2010, 10:15 AM
So, you're ok with deporting the parents or what?

Yes I am. And if the kids aren't old enough to sustain as adults, they can go with them. This bill isn't about those Kids.

It's about young adults who have been here for over 10 years at least.

If people would read the FUCKING bill they would know that.

This isn't for 12 yr old Jasmine.

It's for 20 yr old Maria who has been living here since she was a toddler, has completed all of K-12 and can now do absoluteyl nothing with her life.

That's what this bill is for. A Very small fraction of illegals.

ClevelandBronco
09-22-2010, 10:19 AM
Yes I am.

And are you also in favor of their naturalized children not being their ticket back into the U.S.?

Detoxing
09-22-2010, 10:27 AM
And are you also in favor of their naturalized children not being their ticket back into the U.S.?

I am, yes.

It's simple for me.

Can you be a productive, tax paying member of society or not?

If you are educated, self sustaining, taxable and not a leech, then why shouldn't you stay here?

If you're the opposite, then you don't belong here.

The DREAM act just wants a chance to prove that they are educated, self sustaning, productive members of society.

If they can't complete 2 yrs of college or military serve, then maybe they don't belong here.

they put a higher standard for themselves than a lot of citizens do. They didn't ask for a handout, they asked for the opportunity to work to prove it to you.

And no one wants to even give them the chance to work...to prove it....it's sad.

stevieray
09-22-2010, 10:30 AM
You keep going back to that.

The only difference between them and your kids is a ****ing piece of paper, yet you feel they should be sent to suffer in a 3rd world country.



Your damn right..We are a nation of laws. Equal justice under the LAW.

a ****ing piece of paper? that's a pretty telling statment...I think my daughters citizenship means more to them than that.

and I disagree, there is a difference...I'm not putting my kids at risk in a foreign country where they can be deported....

again, think this through., and please stop ascribing feelings to me.

if your kid doesn't have his shot records due to the actions or choices of the parents, he isn't going to school.

by your logic, he should be let into school, because he just wants to learn like the other kids, regardless of the risks created by the parents..

Donger
09-22-2010, 10:35 AM
I suppose the plus side is that these formally-illegal citizens could never serve as POTUS.

Mr. Flopnuts
09-22-2010, 10:37 AM
I haven't read this thread, nor do I plan on it because I don't feel like being angry today. So forgive me if this has already been mentioned.

Let's say my Dad scams people out of millions of dollars before I'm born. I don't have anything to do with it, and all I want is the opportunity that comes with having money in our society. Unfortunately for me, he gets caught and has to give all the money back on my 18th birthday. I've already been accepted to Harvard, but now we can't afford it because my pops has to return his stolen booty. Shouldn't I get a free edumacation from a top school that I qualified for? I mean, I didn't steal the money.

Doesn't make a lot of sense does it? Parents make decisions that affect their children all the time. It's unfortunate, but just like in many other instances, life isn't always fair.

ClevelandBronco
09-22-2010, 10:39 AM
So, you're ok with deporting the parents or what?

Yes I am.

And are you also in favor of their naturalized children not being their ticket back into the U.S.?

I am, yes.

Then you should probably look for a different DREAM.

Neverending Bad DREAM

September 23, 2010 4:00 A.M.

Senate majority leader Harry Reid is a desperate man. Locked in a tight race with Republican challenger Sharron Angle, he wants to boost his support among Hispanic voters. So yesterday he tried to sneak the DREAM Act into the defense-authorization bill as an amendment. The maneuver didnít work, mostly because of overreach: Other add-ons to the bill included repealing ďDonít Ask, Donít TellĒ and lifting the abortion ban currently in place for military hospitals. Together, the controversial trio proved enough to make the bill vulnerable to the filibuster that stopped it.

But expect the DREAM ó thatís Development, Relief, and Education for Alien Minors ó Act to live on. In some version or another, itís been a fixture on the legislative landscape since it was first introduced in 2001. Through the years, the bill, which would grant legal status to illegal immigrants who came as children if they agreed to then spend two years in either college or the military, has often relied on the same arguments: Itís unfair to punish children for the sins of their parents and itís cruel to expect children raised in America to be forced back into a country they may not even remember.

These are sympathy-inducing arguments ó although they donít necessarily jibe with the actual provisions of the DREAM Act. First, itís not just those young adults who came over here as infants and toddlers who are eligible; itís also those who came as teenagers, as long as they were under 16. And those eligible for residency include not only the teens and early-20s crowd, but anyone younger than 35 ó adults who clearly knew they were here illegally and chose to play the odds and stay.

Nor is this an insubstantial amnesty: The generous eligibility provisions will ensure a large wave of applicants. The pro-amnesty Migration Policy Institute estimates that up to 2.1 million people will be eligible, although they anticipate that only about 40 percent will take advantage of the amnesty.

Even that only accounts for those who receive amnesty directly. The act could easily double as a backdoor amnesty for many illegal immigrants. Thereís nothing to stop these children, if they eventually become citizens, from sponsoring relatives ó including the parents who brought them here. It could be the disastrous 1986 amnesty all over again: a one-time deal that arbitrarily rewards millions of illegal immigrants for breaking the law before a certain date.

Anything that rewards illegal immigrants, of course, encourages more to come here. Thereís nothing in the act to help further secure our borders. Nor is there any measure that would make it more difficult for illegal immigrants to find work in this country, not even a simple step such as as requiring all companies to use E-verify.

In short, the DREAM Act is partial amnesty with no strings attached. Voters who believe we should enforce our immigration laws rather than reward those who have defied them have only one recourse: defeat Harry Reid and as many of his Democratic colleagues as possible.

http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/247343/neverending-bad-dream-editors

Detoxing
09-22-2010, 10:43 AM
Your damn right..We are a nation of laws. Equal justice under the LAW.

a ****ing piece of paper? that's a pretty telling statment...I think my daughters citizenship means more to them than that.

and I disagree, there is a difference...I'm not putting my kids at risk in a foreign country where they can be deported....

again, think this through., and please stop ascribing feelings to me.

if your kid doesn't have his shot records due to the actions or choices of the parents, he isn't going to school.

by your logic, he should be let into school, because he just wants to learn like the other kids, regardless of the risks created by the parents..

I've said my peace. Rationalize it anyway you want. They're just like you and me, all they want is a fucking chance.

Not sure what's wrong with that. And we're talking about such a small fraction of those who are even eligible....

Instead, they'll live shitty lives, unable to get a job etc

ClevelandBronco
09-22-2010, 10:45 AM
I've said my peace. Rationalize it anyway you want. They're just like you and me, all they want is a ****ing chance.

Not sure what's wrong with that. And we're talking about such a small fraction of those who are even eligible....

Instead, they'll live shitty lives, unable to get a job etc

So in the end, yours is only an emotional appeal.

Mr. Flopnuts
09-22-2010, 10:46 AM
I've said my peace. Rationalize it anyway you want. They're just like you and me, all they want is a fucking chance.

Not sure what's wrong with that. And we're talking about such a small fraction of those who are even eligible....

Instead, they'll live shitty lives, unable to get a job etc

You could say the same thing about Americans, who were born here, that can't find jobs because they're being taken by illegal aliens who will work for $2 an hour. What's more important to you? Because you can't save everyone.

Chief Henry
09-22-2010, 10:47 AM
Your damn right..We are a nation of laws. Equal justice under the LAW.

a ****ing piece of paper? that's a pretty telling statment...I think my daughters citizenship means more to them than that.

and I disagree, there is a difference...I'm not putting my kids at risk in a foreign country where they can be deported....

again, think this through., and please stop ascribing feelings to me.

if your kid doesn't have his shot records due to the actions or choices of the parents, he isn't going to school.

by your logic, he should be let into school, because he just wants to learn like the other kids, regardless of the risks created by the parents..

You've got to remember, the Constitution is only a #$%@&%*$# piece of paper.

Garcia Bronco
09-22-2010, 10:47 AM
What if I told you there was a solution that involved keeping the innocents out of the deportation business that our military wanted and would save us tens of billions in costs?

If they are here illegally they are hardly innocent regardless of the situation. If you want to slash the cost out of the deporatation business let's do it provided we don't put Americans out of work and we cut cost on the comforts of the illegals. The problem is we haggle with the countries where these people are from instead of just dropping them off whether the offending country likes it or not. Next we house these people in camps and put them to work to pay for their crime. I would even consider paying them a wage. But don't sit here and tell me the solution...your solution is good. It amounts to just giving up and saying "okay you can go"

Detoxing
09-22-2010, 10:48 AM
So in the end, yours is only an emotional appeal.

No, im just tired or arguing about it.

What is wrong with the bill? What more would you ask of it? Is it not going above and beyond what you would require someone to do for citizenship?

Or is it all, "just kick everyone out!"

Because that's the only answer people seem to come up with around here.

Detoxing
09-22-2010, 10:49 AM
You could say the same thing about Americans, who were born here, that can't find jobs because they're being taken by illegal aliens who will work for $2 an hour. What's more important to you? Because you can't save everyone.

This bill isn't about those people, though is it? You're lumping people together again.

We're not talking about Jose the gardner.

Mr. Flopnuts
09-22-2010, 10:50 AM
No, im just tired or arguing about it.

What is wrong with the bill? What more would you ask of it? Is it not going above and beyond what you would require someone to do for citizenship?

Or is it all, "just kick everyone out!"

Because that's the only answer people seem to come up with around here.

No one is suggesting we kick everyone out. But we should absolutely kick everyone out who didn't come here legally. Checks and balances exist for a reason.

Mr. Flopnuts
09-22-2010, 10:51 AM
This bill isn't about those people, though is it? You're lumping people together again.

We're not talking about Jose the gardner.

Sure we are. They all start somewhere. And Jose has kids. The problem is much broader than you seem to want to make it out to be. There aren't subsections here. There's legal immigrants, and illegal immigrants.

Donger
09-22-2010, 10:51 AM
I've said my peace. Rationalize it anyway you want. They're just like you and me, all they want is a ****ing chance.

Not sure what's wrong with that. And we're talking about such a small fraction of those who are even eligible....

Instead, they'll live shitty lives, unable to get a job etc

No, they are not like me. I immigrated legally. They did not.

ROYC75
09-22-2010, 10:51 AM
Anything that rewards illegal immigrants, of course, encourages more to come here. There’s nothing in the act to help further secure our borders. Nor is there any measure that would make it more difficult for illegal immigrants to find work in this country, not even a simple step such as as requiring all companies to use E-verify.

In short, the DREAM Act is partial amnesty with no strings attached. Voters who believe we should enforce our immigration laws rather than reward those who have defied them have only one recourse: defeat Harry Reid and as many of his Democratic colleagues as possible.

This says it all, right here. Send them back, secure the borders, let them come over the right way, become legal citizens just as anybody else coming from another country.

ClevelandBronco
09-22-2010, 10:53 AM
No, im just tired or arguing about it.

What is wrong with the bill? What more would you ask of it?

That it not reward illegal behavior. See post #94.

Is it not going above and beyond what you would require someone to do for citizenship?

Or is it all, "just kick everyone out!"

Because that's the only answer people seem to come up with around here.

Kicking them all out is impossible and accepting a bad amnesty is not the answer.

Otter
09-22-2010, 10:54 AM
Yes I am. And if the kids aren't old enough to sustain as adults, they can go with them. This bill isn't about those Kids.

It's about young adults who have been here for over 10 years at least.

If people would read the ****ING bill they would know that.

This isn't for 12 yr old Jasmine.

It's for 20 yr old Maria who has been living here since she was a toddler, has completed all of K-12 and can now do absoluteyl nothing with her life.

That's what this bill is for. A Very small fraction of illegals.

1. Once they become citizens they can sponsor their parents to come back into the US so it's a back door amnesty for the parents.

2. It promotes more parents bringing their kids illegally into the US because they'll expect citizenship down the road.

There's two items I didn't see mentioned. You can't reward breaking the law, which this is doing, or you can only expect more of the same behavior.

BigChiefFan
09-22-2010, 10:56 AM
Sorry, two wrongs don't make a right. They came here illegally, so their kids are illegals, too. The free-ride mentality has to stop. You don't deserve jack shit from America or Americans, because you aren't from the U.S. Enough of the entitlements for FOREIGNERS. The nice guy approach is no longer in effect. You broke OUR LAWS, now pay the piper.

Mr. Flopnuts
09-22-2010, 10:56 AM
1. Once they become citizens they can sponsor their parents to come back into the US so it's a back door amnesty for the parents.

2. It promotes more parents bringing their kids illegally into the US because they'll expect citizenship down the road.

There's two items I didn't see mentioned. You can't reward breaking the law, which this is doing, or you can only expect more of the same behavior.

Sums it up perfectly. Sometimes life isn't fair, and this is definitely one of those cases. But as Mr. Otter says here, it will encourage people to keep on breaking the law.

ClevelandBronco
09-22-2010, 10:57 AM
No, im just tired or arguing about it.

I don't blame you.

How can you possibly reconcile your answers in posts #88 and #90 with your support for DREAM without becoming exhausted?

mlyonsd
09-22-2010, 11:03 AM
I can see it now. Dream act is put into law and two weeks later an illegal with flat feet sues the government for discrimination because the army won't take him.

ROYC75
09-22-2010, 11:04 AM
1. Once they become citizens they can sponsor their parents to come back into the US so it's a back door amnesty for the parents.

2. It promotes more parents bringing their kids illegally into the US because they'll expect citizenship down the road.

There's two items I didn't see mentioned. You can't reward breaking the law, which this is doing, or you can only expect more of the same behavior.

:thumb:

ROYC75
09-22-2010, 11:07 AM
Just when is it time to stop all of this " Money for Nothing " type politics that you want the federal government to control ,stop ?

Someone with an honest take, Sound Off !:hmmm:

BigChiefFan
09-22-2010, 11:10 AM
We also need to threaten jail time for big corporations caught hiring illegals. If those scumbags didn't do that, the illegals wouldn't be crossing the border.

SNR
09-22-2010, 11:13 AM
Yes I am. And if the kids aren't old enough to sustain as adults, they can go with them. This bill isn't about those Kids.

It's about young adults who have been here for over 10 years at least.

If people would read the FUCKING bill they would know that.

This isn't for 12 yr old Jasmine.

It's for 20 yr old Maria who has been living here since she was a toddler, has completed all of K-12 and can now do absoluteyl nothing with her life.

That's what this bill is for. A Very small fraction of illegals.Jasmine? Maria?

That's racist.

ROYC75
09-22-2010, 11:15 AM
We also need to threaten jail time for big corporations caught hiring illegals. If those scumbags didn't do that, the illegals wouldn't be crossing the border.


This is a start !
Then deport them out with the instructions on how to become a legal citizen.

Not rewarding them because they broke the law.

ClevelandBronco
09-22-2010, 11:16 AM
We also need to threaten jail time for big corporations caught hiring illegals. If those scumbags didn't do that, the illegals wouldn't be crossing the border.

Well, big corporation can't serve time in prison; only the people who work for big, medium and small corporations and individual employers can do that.

I support sending those responsible for hiring illegals to prison. IMO, they are aiding in the commission of a crime. They may as well be driving the getaway car at a robbery.

BigChiefFan
09-22-2010, 11:17 AM
Sorry, that "20 year old" got a FREE EDUCATION. We've done more than enough to help with her life. Now GTFO or here's a thought sign the guestbook on your way into the country and actually do things LEGALLY to become a CITIZEN of the U.S.

Not our problem.

Garcia Bronco
09-22-2010, 01:08 PM
Sorry, that "20 year old" got a FREE EDUCATION. We've done more than enough to help with her life. Now GTFO or here's a thought sign the guestbook on your way into the country and actually do things LEGALLY to become a CITIZEN of the U.S.

Not our problem.

Exactly...go home and strengthen your own country instead of leaving it in poverty.

Iowanian
09-22-2010, 01:51 PM
I'd support this act if they mandate English as the official language, the people who benefit from it take a vow to be AMERICANS and stop flying flags of their home countries, and they reimburse the States and Local Govts for the expenses of their educations, health care and any other welfare benefits received prior to becoming legal.


The children of illegals brought here didn't ask for it, but neither did the legal, tax paying Americans who support their "plight" financially while the parents, uncles, cousins earn non-taxed money and ship it to their home countries and remove it from the local economies.


There is already a perfectly legal and reasonable way to enter this country and have a visa for work, school and path to citizenship. I don't care to reward the cheaters for cheating, and I don't want to Press 1 to use an ATM in friggin Iowania.

BigChiefFan
09-22-2010, 03:16 PM
The fact that they are calling it a dream, shows who they actually support. I doubt most Americans DREAM of paying more for freeloaders.

blaise
09-22-2010, 03:45 PM
The fact that they are calling it a dream, shows who they actually support. I doubt most Americans DREAM of paying more for freeloaders.

Well, the people this is for probably aren't the ones freeloading. I think this is intended for the kids who actually have goals and plans.

BigChiefFan
09-22-2010, 05:25 PM
Well, the people this is for probably aren't the ones freeloading. I think this is intended for the kids who actually have goals and plans.

If they aren't here legally and their parents aren't paying taxes, then the kids are stealing, not by choice necessarily, but stealing none-the-less. My heart goes out to them, but their parents made their mess, it's up to their parents to fix the problem and come into the country, the RIGHT WAY, which is legally. Until then, a big, tough shit.

Direckshun
09-22-2010, 05:50 PM
I think the problem people are having with your argument is they see no relevance in the "facts" you present.

That's fair -- it's logic 101, really. I present a series of propositions and then conclude them in an argument. You can disagree either about the truth of my claims or the validity of my logic.

But instead of going for the logic, several folks opened up the thread by complaining about the truth of my propositions. No one has since disproven any of them, and it turns out that basically everybody agrees with them.

We either have to drastically cut what is available to those in need or, we need to control the flood of people entering and staying in the country that are unwilling or unable to go through the legal process. It sounds mean but the truth is not always milk and honey and all of us holding hands and singing. A huge portion of American society is stretched as far as they can go but while we don't need everything we have I don't see us giving up our kids football games, bikes, cell phones and all the things we and our children have grown to expect.

See that's the crazy part of your argument right there.

This program would provide revenue. Not cost us more.

Direckshun
09-22-2010, 05:52 PM
So for an illegal kid to stay in country they have to join the army against their will.

Yeah, I can see this is another brilliant dem idea.

I agree. They shouldn't have to. I approve of an option for college.

Direckshun
09-22-2010, 05:53 PM
If you want us to believe that your argument is logical, you'd probably do well to dial down your emotion.

Now, now, all Pete is trying to say is...

Direckshun
09-22-2010, 05:55 PM
I haven't read this thread, nor do I plan on it because I don't feel like being angry today. So forgive me if this has already been mentioned.

Let's say my Dad scams people out of millions of dollars before I'm born. I don't have anything to do with it, and all I want is the opportunity that comes with having money in our society. Unfortunately for me, he gets caught and has to give all the money back on my 18th birthday. I've already been accepted to Harvard, but now we can't afford it because my pops has to return his stolen booty. Shouldn't I get a free edumacation from a top school that I qualified for? I mean, I didn't steal the money.

Doesn't make a lot of sense does it? Parents make decisions that affect their children all the time. It's unfortunate, but just like in many other instances, life isn't always fair.

Oy.

ClevelandBronco
09-22-2010, 05:56 PM
That's fair -- it's logic 101, really. I present a series of propositions and then conclude them in an argument. You can disagree either about the truth of my claims or the validity of my logic.

But instead of going for the logic, several folks opened up the thread by complaining about the truth of my propositions. No one has since disproven any of them, and it turns out that basically everybody agrees with them.

:rolleyes:

vailpass
09-22-2010, 06:08 PM
That's fair -- it's logic 101, really. I present a series of propositions and then conclude them in an argument. You can disagree either about the truth of my claims or the validity of my logic.

But instead of going for the logic, several folks opened up the thread by complaining about the truth of my propositions. No one has since disproven any of them, and it turns out that basically everybody agrees with them.



See that's the crazy part of your argument right there.

This program would provide revenue. Not cost us more.

This is a good example of why you are about as popular as obama around here.

Direckshun
09-22-2010, 06:10 PM
If they are here illegally they are hardly innocent regardless of the situation.

They're innocent. They didn't do anything.

They didn't come here. They were brought here.

Direckshun
09-22-2010, 06:14 PM
Sorry, two wrongs don't make a right. They came here illegally, so their kids are illegals, too. The free-ride mentality has to stop. You don't deserve jack shit from America or Americans, because you aren't from the U.S. Enough of the entitlements for FOREIGNERS. The nice guy approach is no longer in effect. You broke OUR LAWS, now pay the piper.

Sorry, that "20 year old" got a FREE EDUCATION. We've done more than enough to help with her life. Now GTFO or here's a thought sign the guestbook on your way into the country and actually do things LEGALLY to become a CITIZEN of the U.S.

Not our problem.

We also need to threaten jail time for big corporations caught hiring illegals. If those scumbags didn't do that, the illegals wouldn't be crossing the border.

You're on a roll. Or something.

Direckshun
09-22-2010, 06:17 PM
This is a good example of why you are about as popular as obama around here.

I'm reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeally trying to care about people liking me.

Really.

Captain Floaties. Really.

mlyonsd
09-22-2010, 06:21 PM
I agree. They shouldn't have to. I approve of an option for college.

Not with my tax dollars.

And, isn't that what student visa's are for? That's a real question I don't know how they work.

Direckshun
09-22-2010, 06:27 PM
Not with my tax dollars.

S/he can get a cheap-ass education at a community college for much less than deporting him/her would cost.

mlyonsd
09-22-2010, 06:35 PM
S/he can get a cheap-ass education at a community college for much less than deporting him/her would cost.So, you sneak in here with your kids so they can get a free education. What am I missing?

ClevelandBronco
09-22-2010, 06:36 PM
So, you sneak in here with your kids so they can get a free education. What am I missing?

A free education.

craneref
09-22-2010, 07:06 PM
Where does it say that it is supported by the military? The military does not weigh in on political initiatives. So I take it that if a couple of thieves still millios of dollars worth of merchandise, and their children don't know anything about it, then their children should have a legal path to all the riches that were stolen? The birthright is NOT the illegal parents right to give their children PERIOD! If they want to be citizens, get in line and wait like all the LEGAL immigrants had to do! Including my wife and adopted son!

alnorth
09-22-2010, 07:11 PM
Dispute any of these facts:

1. The children of illegal immigrants did not make the choice to come here.

2. Their illegal status keeps them in society's shadows as a result.

3. We could make tens of billions in putting them on a fair path to citizenship.

4. The military has heartily supported the Dream Act under Republican and Democratic administrations.

1. irrelevant

2. irrelevant

3. I dispute this.

4. irrelevant

These kids need to go back to their county. We shouldn't even have birthright citizenship. I dont care if they dont feel a connection to that land, until they legally immigrate, they do not belong here. There is no reason why the US should have one of the most lax and wide-open immigration policies in the western world in this day and age, particularly with our unemployment and difficulties on our horizon. Immigration exists ONLY to benefit our county, not to help the poor, not to lift others out of poverty, just what can you do for us. This useless bill gives 5-year conditional status if you get a GED, and a green card after 2 years of college. Military service? why? We have so many people signing up that admission standards have tightened, and we need to cut down on military spending before we choke on our debt anyway. No thanks, there are plenty of other highly educated people with skills we need who are patiently waiting in line.

Direckshun
09-22-2010, 08:08 PM
So, you sneak in here with your kids so they can get a free education. What am I missing?

They're sneaking in with their kids whether you like it or not. This is the bed we sleep in for living in a phenomenal country.

Once their kids are in here, we can deport them. Or for less, we can add ourselves an Americanized immigrant with either some college or military service behind them, faaaaaaar more likely to be a productive member of society than not.

Your choice.

Direckshun
09-22-2010, 08:10 PM
Where does it say that it is supported by the military? The military does not weigh in on political initiatives.

Since when?