PDA

View Full Version : Chiefs Thoughts on a young secondary.


Direckshun
10-18-2010, 09:30 AM
Flowers -- Is a Pro Bowl quality CB. Not much to say here. Hamas called him the most complete corner in the NFL, and while I'm not sure that's true, he has All Pro tools. Shame on Crennel for not just fastening him to AJ all game.

Carr -- Is a great #2 CB but can only be used on certain players. Players with elite speed burn him. He can cover just about everybody else.

Arenas -- Is a starting corner. The way he's playing, right now, leads me to believe he's actually the better corner. Teams tried picking on him a ton in the first few games, and they've stopped trying. I'm not sure if his speed is a little better than Carr's, but the work he did on shutting down Austin Collie was a thing of beauty. Really impressed with his man-on skills.

Leggett -- Is the great question mark for our troupe of corners as he heals on IR. If he can come back and play the way he's been playing, we're 4 corners deep.

Daniels -- Is a problem more than he is a solution, which is why we've only seen him on dime packages. If he's our #4 corner coming into next season because Leggett can't play, I'd say we might drop a late-rounder on CB.

Berry -- Is the secondary's Glenn Dorsey, the rookie version. He plays with a great ton of heart and is getting a ton of snaps right now, and is winning some but losing most while showing great ability. My guess is that by year three, we've got something special. Coverage must improve, the guy can't even mark tight ends right now.

Lewis -- Is the polar opposite of Berry on the field, in that he has virtually none of his ability but has had a great knack for developing plays. He's in on the tail end of plays all over the field more than Berry is. I don't think he's starting caliber right now (even though I'd start him anyway), but I think FS is his to lose for next year.

McGraw -- Has turned out to be our secondary's secret weapon to stopping TEs all year. After it was apparent that Berry couldn't keep up with Antonio Gates, McGraw shut him down. McGraw shut down Vernon Davis. McGraw shut down Dallas Clark. And then, Crennel decides not to play McGraw on Owen Daniels and Daniels lights up for 100+ yards and a TD. When we play elite TEs that demand coverage, McGraw needs to be there.

Washington -- Was supposed to be our secret weapon this year. If Washington turns out to be any good, that's automatic depth for our CB and our S rosters. But the project is quickly running out, and it's very clear we can't count on him to develop. A shame, because I liked him coming out of Ohio State.

Shogun
10-18-2010, 09:41 AM
I think its also safe to say on Berry that the plays where he does show up well, HE SHOWS UP WELL

Pestilence
10-18-2010, 09:44 AM
I don't think it will take 3 years for Berry. I think he'll be lights out next year.

I think Sunday's game was our defense missing Lewis. That kid has done a lot for this defense.

Coogs
10-18-2010, 09:46 AM
I don't think it will take 3 years for Berry. I think he'll be lights out next year.

I think Sunday's game was our defense missing Lewis. That kid has done a lot for this defense.

This

Detoxing
10-18-2010, 09:48 AM
Yeah...not sure about your evaluation on McGraw. McGraw didn't shut anyone down. Gates wasn't shut down until we gave Berry help and double and triple teamed him.

And I think Lewis is starter material. Berry will be fine once he stops bitting on the fakes.

Detoxing
10-18-2010, 09:48 AM
I think Sunday's game was our defense missing Lewis. That kid has done a lot for this defense.

Very good point. Kinda like Dorsey in the Cleveland game.

wazimo
10-18-2010, 09:55 AM
I think Berry Sucks. Yes, he will get better but why the hell did we spend our early 1st rounder on a safety is beyond me. What could/should we have drafted with that pick....an OT, MLB, NT/DT, DE...we had a heated debate at the time. I just tohught we could have got a decent safety in the 2nd/3rd. Sorry still pissed about the pick.

The Bad Guy
10-18-2010, 09:57 AM
I think Berry Sucks. Yes, he will get better but why the hell did we spend our early 1st rounder on a safety is beyond me. What could/should we have drafted with that pick....an OT, MLB, NT/DT, DE...we had a heated debate at the time. I just tohught we could have got a decent safety in the 2nd/3rd. Sorry still pissed about the pick.

The true fan has spoken.

What NT were available at 5? Yes, we needed another DE. We've only invested 2 top 5 picks in our DE's. What's another 40 mill?

Those bitching about Berry have the football IQ of my 14-month old.

wazimo
10-18-2010, 09:59 AM
Bad Guy...Classy response as always.

Detoxing
10-18-2010, 10:01 AM
I think Berry Sucks. Yes, he will get better but why the hell did we spend our early 1st rounder on a safety is beyond me. What could/should we have drafted with that pick....an OT, MLB, NT/DT, DE...we had a heated debate at the time. I just tohught we could have got a decent safety in the 2nd/3rd. Sorry still pissed about the pick.

Let's see.

Okung....nope he hasn't panned out after week 6.

McClain...He's catching a ton of heat and some people are labeling him a bust right now...

DE: **** off.

NT @ 5..... :facepalm: Was there even one taken in the first round, let alone top 10?

munkey
10-18-2010, 10:06 AM
I think Berry Sucks. Yes, he will get better but why the hell did we spend our early 1st rounder on a safety is beyond me. What could/should we have drafted with that pick....an OT, MLB, NT/DT, DE...we had a heated debate at the time. I just tohught we could have got a decent safety in the 2nd/3rd. Sorry still pissed about the pick.

What exactly do you expect out of a first round pick in the first year? Seriously? I remember when our first round picks only played ST's and very limited position play in the first year...The fact that he's starting not only speaks of his ability but the fact that the chiefs now make a high paid rookie earn and prove his value is even better...I personally love it. I'd rather see him play and learn from his mistakes while he's young then let him ride the pine for the next year and a half.

I think Berry will be worth every penny towards the end of the season if not the start of next year...the guy is simply gifted.

The Bad Guy
10-18-2010, 10:16 AM
Bad Guy...Classy response as always.

Don't be mad at me that your football knowledge is limited.

brdempsey69
10-18-2010, 10:18 AM
I think Berry Sucks. Yes, he will get better but why the hell did we spend our early 1st rounder on a safety is beyond me. What could/should we have drafted with that pick....an OT, MLB, NT/DT, DE...we had a heated debate at the time. I just tohught we could have got a decent safety in the 2nd/3rd. Sorry still pissed about the pick.

I agree with you 100%. Oh and BTW, Okung played his first full game, fully healthy, against Julius Peppers and Okung handled him very well (better than any of the current Chiefs OT's could have) and he clearly should have been the Chiefs 1st pick in 2010. So anyone who thinks Okung hasn't panned out is quite premature in their assessment. As for Berry, two other rookie Safeties -- Earl Thomas (Seahawks) and Nate Allen (Eagles) are outplaying him by leaps and bounds.

cdcox
10-18-2010, 10:18 AM
Arenas' size was a real liability yesterday. He was basically dragged for 5 yards to make a first down and keep one of those second half TD drives alive. He has played extremely well in coverage, but I expect teams will exploit the size match up. We can probably limit the damage with him at nickel, but I wouldn't want him starting. He would be a real liability in run support.

The Bad Guy
10-18-2010, 10:20 AM
Arenas' size was a real liability yesterday. He was basically dragged for 5 yards to make a first down and keep one of those second half TD drives alive. He has played extremely well in coverage, but I expect teams will exploit the size match up. We can probably limit the damage with him at nickel, but I wouldn't want him starting. He would be a real liability in run support.

The size matchup was tough because he was put on Daniels. There's not many times he's going to be covering a TE in those spots.

The Bad Guy
10-18-2010, 10:21 AM
I agree with you 100%. Oh and BTW, Okung played his first full game, fully healthy, against Julius Peppers and Okung handled him very well (better than any of the current Chiefs OT's could have) and he clearly should have been the Chiefs 1st pick in 2010. So anyone who thinks Okung hasn't panned out is quite premature in their assessment. As for Berry, two other rookie Safeties -- Earl Thomas (Seahawks) and Nate Allen (Eagles) are outplaying him by leaps and bounds.

When one noob makes a ridiculous post, they all come out.

Thankfully, the 2010 draft isn't decided by the first 5 games of the season.

Oh, BTW, thanks for joining Mrs. Saccoshit.

Direckshun
10-18-2010, 10:23 AM
The size matchup was tough because he was put on Daniels. There's not many times he's going to be covering a TE in those spots.

Why we didn't put McGraw on Daniels bewilders me...

Chiefnj2
10-18-2010, 10:25 AM
Top 5 pick or not, Berry's pass coverage skills leave a lot to be desired.

L.A. Chieffan
10-18-2010, 10:26 AM
Arenas can't cover bigger Wrs or Tes

brdempsey69
10-18-2010, 10:27 AM
When one noob makes a ridiculous post, they all come out.

Thankfully, the 2010 draft isn't decided by the first 5 games of the season.

Oh, BTW, thanks for joining Mrs. Saccoshit.

Guess again. Just because because somebody has a different perspective than yours does not make them a noobie & the fact that you flame them for it just makes you look stupider than a bag of rocks.

Detoxing
10-18-2010, 10:28 AM
I agree with you 100%. Oh and BTW, Okung played his first full game, fully healthy, against Julius Peppers and Okung handled him very well (better than any of the current Chiefs OT's could have) and he clearly should have been the Chiefs 1st pick in 2010. So anyone who thinks Okung hasn't panned out is quite premature in their assessment. As for Berry, two other rookie Safeties -- Earl Thomas (Seahawks) and Nate Allen (Eagles) are outplaying him by leaps and bounds.

Wow. So saying that Okung is a bust is premature but labeling Berry a bust isn't? And Peppers isn't exactly known for going full speed full time. So color me unimpressed.

Dee dee dee.

And Earl Thomas isn't being asked to do what Berry does. So GTFO with that shit. I haven't really watched Nate Allen play.

The Bad Guy
10-18-2010, 10:30 AM
Guess again. Just because because somebody has a different perspective than yours does not make them a noobie & the fact that you flame them for it just makes you look stupider than a bag of rocks.

Even dumber than drafting an OT when Albert is playing fine football?

The Bad Guy
10-18-2010, 10:32 AM
Wow. So saying that Okung is a bust is premature but labeling Berry a bust isn't? And Peppers isn't exactly known for going full speed full time. So color me unimpressed.

Dee dee dee.

And Earl Thomas isn't being asked to do what Berry does. So GTFO with that shit. I haven't really watched Nate Allen play.

Nate Allen is playing well, no question.

However, Berry's contract wasn't for 5 games.

brdempsey69
10-18-2010, 10:33 AM
Wow. So saying that Okung is a bust is premature but labeling Berry a bust isn't? And Peppers isn't exactly known for going full speed full time. So color me unimpressed.

Dee dee dee.

And Earl Thomas isn't being asked to do what Berry does. So GTFO with that shit. I haven't really watched Nate Allen play.

No, I wouldn't say Berry is a bust, yet. But he's not been as good as advertised, in fact he's been less than average.

And how do you know Earl Thomas isn't being asked to do what Berry is? You could not possibly know that. And you can undermine Peppers all you want, but he's had double digit sacks for many years & is regarded by many as one of the best.


Even dumber than drafting an OT when Albert is playing fine football?

Albert is OK to a point, but he's not a franchise caliber LT. Dwight Freeney proved that in the Indy. And I suppose it was just as dumb for the Chiefs to bring in Willie Roaf when the had 1999 #1 draft pick John Tait playing LT back in 2002, right? WRONG !! And Tait was a better LT than Albert is.

Nevertheless if you want Berry at Safety and Albert as your LT, well you got them, but I'll bet you won't have much postseason success.

Pestilence
10-18-2010, 10:35 AM
I'm pretty sure that Earl Thomas is playing FS in a 4-3 defense......and Eric Berry is playing SS in a 3-4 defense.


But what do I know....

The Bad Guy
10-18-2010, 10:35 AM
No, I wouldn't say Berry is a bust, yet. But he's not been as good as advertised, in fact he's been less than average.
And how do you know Earl Thomas isn't being asked to do what Berry is? You could not possibly know that. And you can undermine Peppers all you want, but he's had double digit sacks for many years & is regarded by many as one of the best.

Earl Thomas is being asked to play center field. Eric Berry is being asked to make defensive secondary calls and play as a strong safety.

Peppers is an all or nothing guy. If he gets going early, he's a monster. If he gets stopped a few times early, he folds.

The Bad Guy
10-18-2010, 10:36 AM
I'm pretty sure that Earl Thomas is playing FS in a 4-3 defense......and Eric Berry is playing SS in a 3-4 defense.


But what do I know....

What? They aren't the same thing?

The Bad Guy
10-18-2010, 10:37 AM
I will say how hilarious the relative of Saccoknownothing's rep has become a large red bar in a matter of minutes.

Detoxing
10-18-2010, 10:39 AM
No, I wouldn't say Berry is a bust, yet. But he's not been as good as advertised, in fact he's been less than average.
And how do you know Earl Thomas isn't being asked to do what Berry is? You could not possibly know that. And you can undermine Peppers all you want, but he's had double digit sacks for many years & is regarded by many as one of the best.

Peppers has been regarded as a slacker that only gives his best for prime time games. It's WELL documented. Hence the reason the Panthers didn't want to pay him.

And when I watched the Seahawks I didn't see Thomas doing nearly as much as Berry. Thomas has benefited from a few poorly thrown balls.

Yeah Berry hasn't been great in coverage, but he will be. At least we've had him all season, unlike Okung. Okung has played 1 game. Just one. And you're ready to say that we should've picked him....

When our O-line has been playing great.....c'mon dude.

Berry has done more for our D than what Okung would have done for our Line. End of story.

MOhillbilly
10-18-2010, 10:42 AM
mcgraw is slow and all the safties bite hard and play out of position. God forbid its a double move.

patteeu
10-18-2010, 10:46 AM
Flowers -- Is a Pro Bowl quality CB. Not much to say here. Hamas called him the most complete corner in the NFL, and while I'm not sure that's true, he has All Pro tools. Shame on Crennel for not just fastening him to AJ all game.

Jayice Pearson (former Chiefs' DB) made a good point about this on 610 Sports this morning. He said that if you're going to do this, you have to either be willing to play man-to-man all the time (giving the opposing offense the advantage of knowing this) or you have to have all your DBs capable of playing in multiple spots and smart enough to know where they're supposed to be no matter where AJ lines up or where he shifts to. It either takes away your ability to mask your coverage or it dramatically increases the complexity and puts a lot of additional pressure on everyone in your defensive backfield.

Dave Lane
10-18-2010, 10:46 AM
I don't think it will take 3 years for Berry. I think he'll be lights out next year.

I think Sunday's game was our defense missing Lewis. That kid has done a lot for this defense.

Much better so far than Berry. Berry has been Tyson Jackson so far. I think his ceiling is very high but he's struggling badly especially in coverage.

patteeu
10-18-2010, 10:57 AM
The true fan has spoken.

Has anyone ever defined "true fan" around here? It sure seems to have a pretty broad meaning based on usage. Generally, I was under the impression that it had to do with giving the Chiefs front office too much deference/credit or with being against taking a QB in the first round, but this clearly doesn't fit either of these definitions. I guess I'm confused by the lexicon. :shrug:

Mecca
10-18-2010, 10:59 AM
Much better so far than Berry. Berry has been Tyson Jackson so far. I think his ceiling is very high but he's struggling badly especially in coverage.

Ok that's just a bit over the top.

Detoxing
10-18-2010, 11:02 AM
Much better so far than Berry. Berry has been Tyson Jackson so far. I think his ceiling is very high but he's struggling badly especially in coverage.

:facepalm: Will you stop with your stupid Tyson Jackson shit? If you can't see the difference between Tyson's first year and Berry's first 5 games then you are an awful, awful evaluator.

That's a pathetic comparison. Good god man....

The Bad Guy
10-18-2010, 11:09 AM
Has anyone ever defined "true fan" around here? It sure seems to have a pretty broad meaning based on usage. Generally, I was under the impression that it had to do with giving the Chiefs front office too much deference/credit or with being against taking a QB in the first round, but this clearly doesn't fit either of these definitions. I guess I'm confused by the lexicon. :shrug:

My understanding is:

The true fan is happy going 8-8, the true fan thinks it's too big of a risk taking a QB, loves taking offensive lineman with your first pick and thinks you have to get your line in order before the QB.

Frosty
10-18-2010, 11:10 AM
And when I watched the Seahawks I didn't see Thomas doing nearly as much as Berry. Thomas has benefited from a few poorly thrown balls.

Thomas has benefited from some lucky bounce INTs, which is why he is getting the pub. He hasn't been amazing or anything in pass coverage, though, and isn't asked to come up and support the run nearly as much as Berry.

Mecca
10-18-2010, 11:11 AM
I always took true fan as a fan who would be perfectly content with having the 90s back. The risk of doing the things it takes to win a bowl are to much because you might end up 4-12.

PhillyChiefFan
10-18-2010, 11:15 AM
Thomas has benefited from some lucky bounce INTs, which is why he is getting the pub. He hasn't been amazing or anything in pass coverage, though, and isn't asked to come up and support the run nearly as much as Berry.

This. Berry is being asked to be a jack of all trades db. Earl Thomas has the ability to sit back and make picks. Berry supports the run and from what I have seen does this pretty well. He is always around the ball. Palomalu didnt even start as a rookie IIRC.

Frosty
10-18-2010, 11:20 AM
Earl Thomas has the ability to sit back and make picks.

And Thomas isn't make picks by reading the QB and breaking on the ball. Two of his picks careened off other players first. He is making picks like Wesley used to get picks - by playing so deep that he has a shot at overthrows and tipped balls.

patteeu
10-18-2010, 11:32 AM
My understanding is:

The true fan is happy going 8-8, the true fan thinks it's too big of a risk taking a QB, loves taking offensive lineman with your first pick and thinks you have to get your line in order before the QB.

I don't think any chiefs fans are happy going 8-8 (unless you'd also say that the franchise-QB-or-bust crowd is "happy" going 2-14), but thanks for the rest of that definition.

It just seems like an odd application of the term since this is an argument over whether OL, MLB, DE, DT/NT would have been a better use of the first pick than a S, not a QB, but maybe you have history with this poster that I don't know about.

ct
10-18-2010, 03:14 PM
bump the football thread :)

The Bad Guy
10-18-2010, 03:18 PM
I don't think any chiefs fans are happy going 8-8 (unless you'd also say that the franchise-QB-or-bust crowd is "happy" going 2-14), but thanks for the rest of that definition.

It just seems like an odd application of the term since this is an argument over whether OL, MLB, DE, DT/NT would have been a better use of the first pick than a S, not a QB, but maybe you have history with this poster that I don't know about.

I was more targeting the OL pick.

Every true fan wants the OL first rounder. Nevermind that Albert is ascending (fuck you Sacco) and the line has been a strength this year.

SNR
10-18-2010, 05:22 PM
No, I wouldn't say Berry is a bust, yet. But he's not been as good as advertised, in fact he's been less than average.

And how do you know Earl Thomas isn't being asked to do what Berry is? You could not possibly know that. And you can undermine Peppers all you want, but he's had double digit sacks for many years & is regarded by many as one of the best.




Albert is OK to a point, but he's not a franchise caliber LT. Dwight Freeney proved that in the Indy. And I suppose it was just as dumb for the Chiefs to bring in Willie Roaf when the had 1999 #1 draft pick John Tait playing LT back in 2002, right? WRONG !! And Tait was a better LT than Albert is.

Nevertheless if you want Berry at Safety and Albert as your LT, well you got them, but I'll bet you won't have much postseason success.Look at how the Patriots and Steelers are put together. Their lines are adequate. Not spectacular or stunning, but good.

Our offensive line is still middle of the road. It's inconsistent. You see some fantastic run blocking and other times it gets manhandled up front. There's room to improve, but it's totally unnecessary to have a 90s Cowboys line or a 2003 Chiefs line to do have any kind of success in this game. We're doing just fine, and so is Albert. I'd rather use our future first rounders on a QB or some other more important position.

Also, I don't think Pioli and Haley were sitting in the war room fisting each other and giggling about how they're going to screw this franchise over with a Tyson Jackson-like pick of safety at the 5th overall spot. Berry fulfilled their criteria of:

1. Patriot way/hard worker/loves football/tough/smart/fast/team player guy
2. Filling a HUGE need on this team (remember Mike Brown last year?)
3. He's a one-of-a-kind prospect with a seemingly unlimited ceiling in terms of his potential. Unlike any safety prospect the draft has seen since Sean Taylor.

He fulfilled those qualities better than Okung or Bulaga or any other fat fuck you wanted to draft there. He fulfilled them better than any receiver, NT, or LB in this draft. And he fulfilled them better than any QB, even.

You seem like the kind of poster that wants the draft-a-QB crowd to shut up because we're critical of Scott Pioli's ways. If that's the case then YOU need to shut up as well. Because that's exactly what Eric Berry is. And I'm glad we took him.