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View Full Version : Chiefs Who is the biggest goat?


Count Zarth
11-07-2010, 09:42 PM
This should be fun.

In my opinion Bowe and Flowers are more to blame than Cassel. I'd rank the blame game this way:

Flowers
Bowe
Cassel

By the way, I almost added Mr Flopnuts to this poll, because he fucked with our juju.


I grilled a couple of rib eyes and made some over easy eggs, hashbrowns, and toast (for the egg yolk of course) for my Chiefs win meal. Yeah, I already ate it. Because we're THAT FUCKING GOOD.

Bane
11-07-2010, 09:43 PM
Play calling?

Mr. Flopnuts
11-07-2010, 09:44 PM
Flowers. And yeah, I agree with you all the way down that list. Cassel was what I expected him to be, the other two weren't. Cassel actually exceeded my expectations today. Keep in mind, I don't expect much.

Mecca
11-07-2010, 09:44 PM
Shouldn't special teams be an option they essentially caused a 17 point swing.

petegz28
11-07-2010, 09:44 PM
Has to be Bowe. Has a ball hit him in a perfect spot and it goes right through his hands. He catches that ball, game is over.

Bane
11-07-2010, 09:44 PM
Shouldn't special teams be an option they essentially caused a 17 point swing.

Yeah no shit there.

KCChiefsFan88
11-07-2010, 09:45 PM
How about Brian Waters?

Seymour made Waters his bitch throughout the game.

ChiefsCountry
11-07-2010, 09:45 PM
Special Teams

Mr. Flopnuts
11-07-2010, 09:46 PM
I agree with special teams, but I refuse to absolve Flowers of a terrible lack of judgment at the end of regulation.

Stinger
11-07-2010, 09:46 PM
How about Brian Waters?

Seymour made Waters his bitch throughout the game.

Seconded

Rain Man
11-07-2010, 09:47 PM
Do people really think Cassel should be in the running for this? He wasn't Peyton Manning, but I didn't think he played at a goat level at all. If Bowe could catch easy passes, he would've been close to 300 yards with 3 TDs and 1 Int. Cassel wasn't the problem today.

In terms of units, the special teams was the big problem today. They gave up a TD and gave back a field goal. As much as I like the guy, I'd put Studebaker as the goat today.

Rain Man
11-07-2010, 09:48 PM
Has to be Bowe. Has a ball hit him in a perfect spot and it goes right through his hands. He catches that ball, game is over.

Twice, actually. There was a third down pass early in the game that went directly between his arms. It was almost harder to not catch it than to catch it.

Count Zarth
11-07-2010, 09:48 PM
Do people really think Cassel should be in the running for this? He wasn't Peyton Manning, but I didn't think he played at a goat level at all. If Bowe could catch easy passes, he would've been close to 300 yards with 3 TDs and 1 Int. Cassel wasn't the problem today.

In terms of units, the special teams was the big problem today. They gave up a TD and gave back a field goal. As much as I like the guy, I'd put Studebaker as the goat today.

He wasn't THE problem but when you fail to get a first down from your 10-yard line, you choked.

Reerun_KC
11-07-2010, 09:49 PM
Special teams or coaching.

jbwm89
11-07-2010, 09:50 PM
Only one of these three had an opportunity to make a relatively routine play that 90% of players in their position make every time.

Bowe fo sho

Reerun_KC
11-07-2010, 09:51 PM
He wasn't THE problem but when you fail to get a first down from your 10-yard line, you choked.

I understand it's your sole agenda. But you might want to take off the rose colored hate glasses and look at the whole picture for a change.

Mr. Flopnuts
11-07-2010, 09:51 PM
You guys are basing this off past performances. All Flowers has to do is knock that pass down rather than try to pad his stats. Game over. It's easier to knock a pass down than it is to catch one. Why do you think they play defense?

BigMeatballDave
11-07-2010, 09:51 PM
How about Weis for denying Charles carries?

I'll always blame Cassel. He's the QB. When the running game isnt working, he needs to make plays.

Reerun_KC
11-07-2010, 09:52 PM
Waters was rented all day long. It was painful to watch.

chiefzilla1501
11-07-2010, 09:53 PM
Only one of these three had an opportunity to make a relatively routine play that 90% of players in their position make every time.

Bowe fo sho

Bingo.

As for special teams and Waters... look, those guys sucked. But the fact is the Chiefs were in a position to win despite those problems. I don't care as much about plays we don't make early in the game. I care about plays we're supposed to make when we're in a position to win late in the game.

Thig Lyfe
11-07-2010, 09:53 PM
Lots of people to blame, but ultimately it all comes back to Cassel. A real QB knows how to win a game like this one.

Count Zarth
11-07-2010, 09:53 PM
I understand it's your sole agenda. But you might want to take off the rose colored hate glasses and look at the whole picture for a change.

I picked Flowers.

But to act like Cassel didn't gag a little...

Nightfyre
11-07-2010, 09:53 PM
Flowers gave up big plays
Special teams sucked badly
Bowe dropped a couple easy catches in situations where he could have sealed the game.
But Cassel's dogshit play kept us completely out of the fucking game from halfway through the second quarter on.

jbwm89
11-07-2010, 09:54 PM
You guys are basing this off past performances. All Flowers has to do is knock that pass down rather than try to pad his stats. Game over. It's easier to knock a pass down than it is to catch one. Why do you think they play defense?

Had Flowers knocked that pass down there still would have been time left in the game. It is not like it was a hail mary or something.

I agree in hindsight knock the damn thing down but with however many seconds were left (30ish??????) I understand why he tried to pick it.

Just my line of thinking but given that Bowe's catch would have been much easier to make than Flower's interception, not to mention Bowe's job is to catch the damn ball

Bugeater
11-07-2010, 09:54 PM
I voted Cassel. Not because I really think it was his fault, but just because I hate him.

Reerun_KC
11-07-2010, 09:55 PM
Lots of people to blame, but ultimately it all comes back to Cassel. A real QB knows how to win a game like this one.

And many a real qbs have lost games like this one. Whats your point?

ArrowheadMagic
11-07-2010, 09:55 PM
You guys are basing this off past performances. All Flowers has to do is knock that pass down rather than try to pad his stats. Game over. It's easier to knock a pass down than it is to catch one. Why do you think they play defense?

If it was 4th down, then yes, knock it down. Not on 2nd or 3rd, you make a play. Bowe makes his catch, the Flowers play doesnt happen.

the Talking Can
11-07-2010, 09:56 PM
holding a CB responsible over a QB who threw an int in the endzone?

the defense played a hell of a lot better than the offense, and if the offense had done it's job in the first half while the defense was dominating, the game would never have been in question...

and special teams were more responsible than flowers....and it isn't even close

Count Zarth
11-07-2010, 09:57 PM
The defense gave up 250 yards in the second half and overtime.

Reerun_KC
11-07-2010, 09:57 PM
I picked Flowers.

But to act like Cassel didn't gag a little...

He did what he does every game. Makes a few throws, makes a few bonehead plays. Nothing new really to bitch about to be honest. I can't vote on any. If you really want to vote. Put coaching up there. We looked lost and confused most of the 2nd and 3rd qtrs.

Thig Lyfe
11-07-2010, 09:58 PM
And many a real qbs have lost games like this one. Whats your point?

What's your point?

I really don't understand why you insist on defending Cassel every week. He's awful. Absolutely awful. He's the main problem with this team, and it's not even close. Every game has its goats, but Cassel is more than a goat. He's a fucking terminal illness.

TheGuardian
11-07-2010, 09:58 PM
I understand it's your sole agenda. But you might want to take off the rose colored hate glasses and look at the whole picture for a change.

Agreed.

Gif I want Cassel replaced too but your hatred of him sometimes make you like a complete fucktard. Today Cassel played well and was never a reason why we lost this game. The fact is, he was clutch when it mattered in regulation and all Bowe has to do is catch a very well thrown ball to end the game for the W and he couldn't.

Matt played well enough for us to win this game.

Wallcrawler
11-07-2010, 09:59 PM
Special teams.

Berry's holding call took a TD return off the board.

Studebaker's holding call took a FG off the board

Nobody touches the returner on the opening kickoff of second half, giving up a TD.

Not fielding the football cleanly for the possesion in OT has us starting inside the 20 yard line, where Weiss is happy to call us an epic 3 and out series.

Count Zarth
11-07-2010, 09:59 PM
Matt played well enough for us to win this game.

I agree with that.

But still, when push came to shove, he didn't come through in OT.

To me, that is choking.

the Talking Can
11-07-2010, 09:59 PM
The defense gave up 250 yards in the second half and overtime.

so what?

special teams gave up the first td


our defense gave our offense every god damn chance to do their fucking jobs, only to watch our offense shit it's pants on 3rd down over and over and over

jbwm89
11-07-2010, 09:59 PM
If it was 4th down, then yes, knock it down. Not on 2nd or 3rd, you make a play. Bowe makes his catch, the Flowers play doesnt happen.

Exactly I think Flowers played like shit but the idea that he should have just slapped it out of the air when he clearly was in the position to make a pick and end the game is stupid.

ArrowheadMagic
11-07-2010, 10:00 PM
holding a CB responsible over a QB who threw an int in the endzone?

the defense played a hell of a lot better than the offense, and if the offense had done it's job in the first half while the defense was dominating, the game would never have been in question...

and special teams were more responsible than flowers....and it isn't even close

Pretty sure the play call didnt have 2 receivers within 5ft of each other. Someone ran the wrong route, but since I wasnt in the huddle, how would I know what was called.

Just Passin' By
11-07-2010, 10:00 PM
He wasn't THE problem but when you fail to get a first down from your 10-yard line, you choked.

This has got to be in the running for the stupidest thing you've ever posted.

BigMeatballDave
11-07-2010, 10:00 PM
I understand it's your sole agenda. But you might want to take off the rose colored hate glasses and look at the whole picture for a change.No one has an agenda. Cassel is not consistent enough. Thats not conjecture, its fact.

I watched the Browns today. McCoy looked better in that game than Cassel has EVER looked as a Chief.

DeezNutz
11-07-2010, 10:01 PM
Cassel made some nice throws today. I can't imagine anyone arguing otherwise. Similarly, I cannot imagine anyone not acknowledging that he had a major hand in the loss, with his duck at the end of the first (when we were in prime position to get at least 3 points) and breakdown in OT and at the end of regulation when he had two impressive overthrows on the three and out prior to the Bowe drop.

He's not good enough, but this isn't anything new.

chiefzilla1501
11-07-2010, 10:01 PM
I agree with that.

But still, when push came to shove, he didn't come through in OT.

To me, that is choking.

I actually was hoping to look at that last offensive play in OT. Was there a receiver he should have hit? On second down, it didn't look like his options were very good. I can't remember what happened on third down.

cdcox
11-07-2010, 10:01 PM
Moeaki dropping the 3rd and 1 pass.

Haley for not going for it on 4th and 1.

Studebaker for getting called for the hold.

Berry called for a hold that nullifies a TD return.

On five consecutive plays in the red zone, Cassel throws three straight incompletions, takes a sack, and throws an interception.

On the opening kickoff of the second half we blow coverage and allow a TD.

Arenas fumbles the kickoff.

That is less than 1 quarter of clock time. We screwed up winning plays all day long. Team loss.

Count Zarth
11-07-2010, 10:02 PM
This has got to be in the running for the stupidest thing you've ever posted.

So what would you call it?

Imagine if we go back to last week, and after Cassel's first overtime abortion the Bills hit a bomb and kick a FG.

That would be a choke job.

Thig Lyfe
11-07-2010, 10:02 PM
No one has an agenda. Cassel is not consistent enough. Thats not conjecture, its fact.

I watched the Browns today. McCoy looked better in that game than Cassel has EVER looked as a Chief.

And that's fucking pathetic.

Count Zarth
11-07-2010, 10:03 PM
I actually was hoping to look at that last offensive play in OT. Was there a receiver he should have hit? On second down, it didn't look like his options were very good. I can't remember what happened on third down.

It's in the GIF'D UP thread.

The third down play is in question as to whether Bowe was open.

BigMeatballDave
11-07-2010, 10:04 PM
I voted Cassel. Not because I really think it was his fault, but just because I hate him.Yep. I want SO bad to like Matt.

Thig Lyfe
11-07-2010, 10:04 PM
Cassel made some nice throws today. I can't imagine anyone arguing otherwise. Similarly, I cannot imagine anyone not acknowledging that he had a major hand in the loss, with his duck at the end of the first (when we were in prime position to get at least 3 points) and breakdown in OT and at the end of regulation when he had two impressive overthrows on the three and out prior to the Bowe drop.

He's not good enough, but this isn't anything new.

THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS

He made a few good throws, but a few good throws does not a win make. Especially when all the other throws are big shitty pieces of shit-covered shit.

DeezNutz
11-07-2010, 10:04 PM
Moeaki dropping the 3rd and 1 pass.

Haley for not going for it on 4th and 1.

Studebaker for getting called for the hold.

Berry called for a hold that nullifies a TD return.

On five consecutive plays in the red zone, Cassel throws three straight incompletions, takes a sack, and throws an interception.

On the opening kickoff of the second half we blow coverage and allow a TD.

Arenas fumbles the kickoff.

That is less than 1 quarter of clock time. We screwed up winning plays all day long. Team loss.

He appears to have absolutely no philosophy as it relates to fourth down, which is disconcerting.

Reerun_KC
11-07-2010, 10:05 PM
Cassel made some nice throws today. I can't imagine anyone arguing otherwise. Similarly, I cannot imagine anyone not acknowledging that he had a major hand in the loss, with his duck at the end of the first (when we were in prime position to get at least 3 points) and breakdown in OT and at the end of regulation when he had two impressive overthrows on the three and out prior to the Bowe drop.

He's not good enough, but this isn't anything new.

And it looked as if bowe was wide freaking open in ot on 3rd down. That ot throw was a panic throw. Dammit Matty light.

jbwm89
11-07-2010, 10:05 PM
So what would you call it?

Imagine if we go back to last week, and after Cassel's first overtime abortion the Bills hit a bomb and kick a FG.

That would be a choke job.

I usually agree with you on Cassel, but you make it sound like every quarterback leads his team into field goal range every possession of OT.

I blame the playcalling for being so pussy. Cassel probably wouldn't have been able to make the throws, but we will never know.

chasedude
11-07-2010, 10:06 PM
I think it's just an all poor effort on the team.

Bowe missed some obvious catches

Cassell overthrew and made stupid decisions.

Special Teams gave up a TD and colquitt with his less than stellar punts.

OLine allowed 2 sacks on Cassell when they only allowed 3 in all previous games.

Defense missed some INT's, blown coverage and outright stupid mistakes.

All aspects of the team had too many penalties.

Picking ONE goat? I cannot do.

chiefzilla1501
11-07-2010, 10:07 PM
And it looked as if bowe was wide freaking open in ot on 3rd down. That ot throw was a panic throw. Dammit Matty light.

I don't agree. There's a LB spying Cassel. He drifts to the left because Cassel is looking right.

If Cassel looks toward Bowe, I think that's possibly a pick 6.

Rain Man
11-07-2010, 10:07 PM
...

Berry called for a hold that nullifies a TD return.

...



I think it was a block in the back penalty, and I hope that gif horse can show us a gif of that play because I really don't think that was a block in the back.

jbwm89
11-07-2010, 10:08 PM
I think it was a block in the back penalty, and I hope that gif horse can show us a gif of that play because I really don't think that was a block in the back.

I second that

BigMeatballDave
11-07-2010, 10:08 PM
Cassel made some nice throws today. I can't imagine anyone arguing otherwise. Similarly, I cannot imagine anyone not acknowledging that he had a major hand in the loss, with his duck at the end of the first (when we were in prime position to get at least 3 points) and breakdown in OT and at the end of regulation when he had two impressive overthrows on the three and out prior to the Bowe drop.

He's not good enough, but this isn't anything new.Yes. It is so vexing. How the fuck does he throw a nice bullet to Bowe for the TD, and then completely shit himself other times?

KCChiefsFan88
11-07-2010, 10:09 PM
THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS

He made a few good throws, but a few good throws does not a win make. Especially when all the other throws are big shitty pieces of shit-covered shit.

Other than the bad INT in the end-zone at the end of the first half, Cassel played well enough for the Chiefs to win.

This team is supposed to be led by a strong running game and mistake free football. The Chiefs struggled to run the ball all day, and were plagued by mistakes (penalties and horrific special teams play) throughout the game.

Count Zarth
11-07-2010, 10:09 PM
I usually agree with you on Cassel, but you make it sound like every quarterback leads his team into field goal range every possession of OT.

I blame the playcalling for being so pussy. Cassel probably wouldn't have been able to make the throws, but we will never know.

Not looking for FG range.

But a couple of first downs from that point on the field are huge.

I was excited when we won the coin toss. I thought "hey! maybe Cassel will continue to be clutch and we'll get the hell out of this dungeon with a win."

Two plays later.

http://www.relationship101s.com/wp-content/themes/eminent/images/fuuu.jpg

Frazod
11-07-2010, 10:10 PM
The defense gave up 250 yards in the second half and overtime.

For a grand total of 16 points. And when you throw in the points the gave up in the first half, it's still 16 points.

cdcox
11-07-2010, 10:10 PM
Moeaki dropping the 3rd and 1 pass.

Haley for not going for it on 4th and 1.

Studebaker for getting called for the hold.

Berry called for a hold that nullifies a TD return.

On five consecutive plays in the red zone, Cassel throws three straight incompletions, takes a sack, and throws an interception.

On the opening kickoff of the second half we blow coverage and allow a TD.

Arenas fumbles the kickoff.

That is less than 1 quarter of clock time. We screwed up winning plays all day long. Team loss.

That sequence in the 2nd quarter was potentially 21 points. And we got zero. ZERO! That is where we lost the game.

DeezNutz
11-07-2010, 10:11 PM
Yes. It is so vexing. How the **** does he throw a nice bullet to Bowe for the TD, and then completely shit himself other times?

Because he lacks the instincts and field awareness to be a high-quality QB, IMO, and these cannot be learned in the NFL. They're learned in college, where Cassel never played.

As milkman and others have said, when Cassel throws with conviction, the results are generally pretty good. Too often, however, he doesn't play with this level of confidence.

BigMeatballDave
11-07-2010, 10:11 PM
I agree with that.

But still, when push came to shove, he didn't come through in OT.

To me, that is choking.This. Why cant people understand this.

Its obvious he DID NOT play well enough to win.

BossChief
11-07-2010, 10:11 PM
Bowe, as if he catches the catchable ball, we win the game.

...

Sidenote: I always think of GOAT as greatest of all time...how did it come about that goat of a game is the person most responsible for the loss?

DeezNutz
11-07-2010, 10:11 PM
Other than the bad INT in the end-zone at the end of the first half, Cassel played well enough for the Chiefs to win.

This team is supposed to be led by a strong running game and mistake free football. The Chiefs struggled to run the ball all day, and were plagued by mistakes (penalties and horrific special teams play) throughout the game.

Why? Oh yeah...

chiefzilla1501
11-07-2010, 10:11 PM
THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS

He made a few good throws, but a few good throws does not a win make. Especially when all the other throws are big shitty pieces of shit-covered shit.

Cassel did enough for the Chiefs to win the game. And in the moment when they needed him most, he threw a catchable ball to Bowe that Bowe dropped.

Then Flowers misses a play that was also a great effort on the WR.

Then Cassel had a shitty OT (though, I think some of that could fall on the receivers, as it didn't look like anyone was open).

They all should have made plays. But if you're prioritizing blame, you have to start from the one play that would have prevented all of that from happening. You could argue all day long about if the Chiefs don't give up that special teams TD, maybe the Chiefs still give up 20 points. But there's really no argument that if Bowe catches that ball, then the Chiefs get a new set of downs at the 2 minute warning and take three knees to win the game.

Thig Lyfe
11-07-2010, 10:12 PM
Other than the bad INT in the end-zone at the end of the first half, Cassel played well enough for the Chiefs to win.

This team is supposed to be led by a strong running game and mistake free football. The Chiefs struggled to run the ball all day, and were plagued by mistakes (penalties and horrific special teams play) throughout the game.

Cassel makes two or three good throws all game and that's considered "well enough"? Talk about low standards. Jesus.

Yes, there is plenty of blame to go around, but to pretend that Cassel playing a good game (not some mythical "good enough" game) wouldn't radically change the outcome is ludicrous.

Count Zarth
11-07-2010, 10:13 PM
This. Why cant people understand this.

Its obvious he DID NOT play well enough to win.

He played well enough to win in a game where everyone else did their job.

Unfortunately, the running game blew, special teams blew, and defense choked at the end.

Cassel can't overcome the mistakes of others.

And I don't expect him to. I'd be happy if he was a cog in the machine like Trent Green was.

KChiefs1
11-07-2010, 10:13 PM
Cassel did not lose this game today!

Bowe makes that catch & it's game over......

jbwm89
11-07-2010, 10:14 PM
Not looking for FG range.

But a couple of first downs from that point on the field are huge.

I was excited when we won the coin toss. I thought "hey! maybe Cassel will continue to be clutch and we'll get the hell out of this dungeon with a win."

Two plays later.

http://www.relationship101s.com/wp-content/themes/eminent/images/fuuu.jpg

I blame that partially on playcalling. However I will give you this, why on earth would Cassel try to throw that ball to Pope, I would rather him try and scramble or even stand around and shit his pants.

There is no way Pope gets that first down even if he catches that and Cassel should realize that.

KChiefs1
11-07-2010, 10:14 PM
Cassel did not lose this game today!

Bowe makes that catch & it's game over......

2bikemike
11-07-2010, 10:14 PM
Moeaki dropping the 3rd and 1 pass.

Haley for not going for it on 4th and 1.

Studebaker for getting called for the hold.

Berry called for a hold that nullifies a TD return.

On five consecutive plays in the red zone, Cassel throws three straight incompletions, takes a sack, and throws an interception.

On the opening kickoff of the second half we blow coverage and allow a TD.

Arenas fumbles the kickoff.

That is less than 1 quarter of clock time. We screwed up winning plays all day long. Team loss.

This right here. Team loss period. There is plenty of blame to go around. Very few get a pass on the loss. IMHO no individual was more responsible than anyone else. The team flat out sucked from the moment the ball left Succops foot to start the second half.

As far as the red zone pick goes thats on Moeaki. I don't think he was where he was supposed to be. Bowe was open and that pass looked to me like it was intended for Bowe. Cassel was plenty pissed about as well.

Thig Lyfe
11-07-2010, 10:16 PM
But if you're prioritizing blame, you have to start from the one play that would have prevented all of that from happening.

I disagree. You have to start with the overall performance of your quarterback. If Cassel knows how to make throws and make them consistently, if he knows how to sustain drives more often than kill them, then the whole complexion of the game changes. It's a little more abstract of an approach, but I think pretending like each play exists in a vacuum is silly. It's not about one play going one way or the other; it's about one player, the supposed leader of the team, putting together a complete game. Everything branches out from there.

jbwm89
11-07-2010, 10:17 PM
He played well enough to win in a game where everyone else did their job.

Unfortunately, the running game blew, special teams blew, and defense choked at the end.

Cassel can't overcome the mistakes of others.

And I don't expect him to. I'd be happy if he was a cog in the machine like Trent Green was.

So today he was the cog in the machine that didn't fit? or all of the other cogs were broke and he couldn't overcome it?

Count Zarth
11-07-2010, 10:18 PM
So today he was the cog in the machine that didn't fit? or all of the other cogs were broke and he couldn't overcome it?

All of the other cogs were slightly off.

cdcox
11-07-2010, 10:18 PM
Cassel did not lose this game today!

Bowe makes that catch & it's game over......

But there were at least 10 other plays that could have been made that would have been "game over". That wasn't even the last one. To single out Bowe is just arbitrary.

DeezNutz
11-07-2010, 10:18 PM
If Bowe makes that catch, nothing else matters. LMAO.

Such a stupid game to play. Let's see:

1. If Studebaker doesn't hold, the Bowe drop doesn't matter.
2. If Cassel doesn't wet himself and throw off his back foot at the end of the first half, it's likely that the Bowe drop wouldn't have mattered.
3. And about 5 more "ifs."

BossChief
11-07-2010, 10:18 PM
.Bowe, as if he catches the catchable ball, we win the game.

...

Sidenote: I always think of GOAT as greatest of all time...how did it come about that goat of a game is the person most responsible for the loss?

BigMeatballDave
11-07-2010, 10:18 PM
Cassel did not lose this game today!

Bowe makes that catch & it's game over......Cassel didnt do much to help win, though, did he?

Chiefs fans have gone so long without a good QB, its hard to tell when one is playing up to a level to win.

jbwm89
11-07-2010, 10:19 PM
But Bowe's catch would have ended the game at that moment. I am not talking about a play in the first half that would have given us points then, the game would have adjusted to those.

DeezNutz
11-07-2010, 10:20 PM
But Bowe's catch would have ended the game at that moment. I am not talking about a play in the first half that would have given us points then, the game would have adjusted to those.

We're talking about it because it was one of the last ones. And then when people mention the Flowers failed INT, people say, "But if Bowe had caught that ball!!!"

Can't have it both ways.

stevieray
11-07-2010, 10:20 PM
Other than the bad INT in the end-zone at the end of the first half, Cassel played well enough for the Chiefs to win.


...you talking about the ball the Moeaki tipped?..from the EZ replay, that ball looked like it was intended for Bowe, or was coming right for him.

Thig Lyfe
11-07-2010, 10:21 PM
.

Scapegoat.

cdcox
11-07-2010, 10:22 PM
But Bowe's catch would have ended the game at that moment. I am not talking about a play in the first half that would have given us points then, the game would have adjusted to those.

So would have Flowers interception. Or even if he had knocked the ball to the ground it would have limited the Raiders to one last sideline throw. Flowers is the goat, LETS CUT HIM!!!!!!

jbwm89
11-07-2010, 10:22 PM
We're talking about it because it was one of the last ones. And then when people mention the Flowers failed INT, people say, "But if Bowe had caught that ball!!!"

Can't have it both ways.

The flowers play is the same way. He catches that pick the game is over.

He knocks the pass down the game is not over.

I understand what your saying but you can't put something like a holding penalty in the first half, or an interception in the first half on the same level as those 2 plays

DeezNutz
11-07-2010, 10:22 PM
So would have Flowers interception. Or even if he had knocked the ball to the ground it would have limited the Raiders to one last sideline throw. Flowers is the goat, LETS CUT HIM!!!!!!

But Flowers never would have aapopruepoa if a;lkrjea hadn't aoia;oriuapoeia!!!!111

BossChief
11-07-2010, 10:23 PM
If Bowe makes that catch, nothing else matters. LMAO.

Such a stupid game to play. Let's see:

1. If Studebaker doesn't hold, the Bowe drop doesn't matter.
2. If Cassel doesn't wet himself and throw off his back foot at the end of the first half, it's likely that the Bowe drop wouldn't have mattered.
3. And about 5 more "ifs."

We're talking about it because it was one of the last ones. And then when people mention the Flowers failed INT, people say, "But if Bowe had caught that ball!!!"

Can't have it both ways.I get what you are saying, but...

If he catches that ball the time is able to click down to the 2 minute warning and given us the first down and the raiders had no timeouts.

It would have ended the game.

This is a multiple choice question.

BigMeatballDave
11-07-2010, 10:23 PM
He played well enough to win in a game where everyone else did their job.

Unfortunately, the running game blew, special teams blew, and defense choked at the end.

Cassel can't overcome the mistakes of others.

And I don't expect him to. I'd be happy if he was a cog in the machine like Trent Green was.I do. He's the QB. The leader of the team. He cant do it. Abject failure.

cdcox
11-07-2010, 10:24 PM
But Flowers never would have aapopruepoa if a;lkrjea hadn't aoia;oriuapoeia!!!!111

Excellent point!!!!elevensies.

DeezNutz
11-07-2010, 10:24 PM
The flowers play is the same way. He catches that pick the game is over.

He knocks the pass down the game is not over.

I understand what your saying but you can't put something like a holding penalty in the first half, or an interception in the first half on the same level as those 2 plays

The holding penalty literally wiped out 3 points; it's bigger than the Bowe drop, so you're right that it's not on par.

jbwm89
11-07-2010, 10:24 PM
So would have Flowers interception. Or even if he had knocked the ball to the ground it would have limited the Raiders to one last sideline throw. Flowers is the goat, LETS CUT HIM!!!!!!

If Bowe catches that ball there is no need for Flowers to make that play. I don't think there is another play in the game before that one that you can say with 100% certainty ENDS THE GAME at that moment.

Plus the fucking catch was routine, damn thing when straight through his hands.

KChiefs1
11-07-2010, 10:24 PM
So many missed opportunities in this game....

Bugeater
11-07-2010, 10:24 PM
.
This is what I think of when someone says "goat".

http://www.motorimania.net/manifestazioni/sportive/pontiac/images/Pontiac.Gto.Judge_1.jpg

jbwm89
11-07-2010, 10:25 PM
The holding penalty literally wiped out 3 points; it's bigger than the Bowe drop, so you're right that it's not on par.

The holding penalty doesn't happen and the entire game changes. We play differently and so do they. Bowe catches the pass and nothing either team can do changes anything, its over.

KChiefs1
11-07-2010, 10:25 PM
Studebaker's hold on the fg took 3pts off the board....

Phobia
11-07-2010, 10:26 PM
The fact is, he was clutch when it mattered in regulation and all Bowe has to do is catch a very well thrown ball to end the game for the W and he couldn't.

Matt played well enough for us to win this game.

Clutch? I specifically recall 2 passes in a row thrown towards Bowe that weren't within 10 yards of him.

DeezNutz
11-07-2010, 10:27 PM
Clutch? I specifically recall 2 passes in a row thrown towards Bowe that weren't within 10 yards of him.

Well, then that mother****er should have jumped because he should have iced the game there. Nothing ELSE matters except his lack of vertical leaping ability.

jbwm89
11-07-2010, 10:28 PM
Studebaker's hold on the fg took 3pts off the board....

So does Cassel's pick. But we overcame all of that had a chance to win and dropped a routine pass that absolutely wins the game.

Phobia
11-07-2010, 10:30 PM
Well, then that mother****er should have jumped because he should have iced the game there. Nothing ELSE matters except his lack of vertical leaping ability.

Hyperbolic much?

BossChief
11-07-2010, 10:31 PM
It will be interesting to see how this young team responds next week when we go into Denver and them surely wanting to show that the 09 season finale was a fluke.

Id love to see a repeat performance.

But, one where Bowe catches the game winner and isnt the goat

Johnny Vegas
11-07-2010, 10:32 PM
lets see...12 penalties that gave up 100 yards....giving up 14 points in 3 minutes and 28 seconds starting the 2nd half. Dumb football. No individual blame. In order for the team to mature they can't play the blame game. The team needs to take accountability for one's mistakes. If someone is late to class everyone stays after school for detention.

cdcox
11-07-2010, 10:33 PM
If Bowe catches that ball there is no need for Flowers to make that play. I don't think there is another play in the game before that one that you can say with 100% certainty ENDS THE GAME at that moment.

Plus the ****ing catch was routine, damn thing when straight through his hands.

Look, it was a close game where we blew at least 10 plays. If we made half of them the game is a blow out. If we make 2 of them it is an easy win. If we make one of them it would have given us the margin of victory. But it's all Bowe's fault.

luv
11-07-2010, 10:33 PM
So, what exactly does placing blame accomplish?

thurman merman
11-07-2010, 10:35 PM
Biggest goat is the coaching staff for only giving Jamaal 10 carries. That is completely retarded. I know a lot of you pansies think it's a great idea to give Jones twice as many carries, but 10 carries for an explosive threat like Jamaal Charles is utterly ridiculous. Especially when Jones is averaging 1 yard per carry.

jbwm89
11-07-2010, 10:35 PM
Look, it was a close game where we blew at least 10 plays. If we made half of them the game is a blow out. If we make 2 of them it is an easy win. If we make one of them it would have given us the margin of victory. But it's all Bowe's fault.

I never said it was all Bowe's fault, that would be stupid. But the title of this thread is Who is the biggest goat. I think in this situation it was Bowe for dropping that pass.

Count Zarth
11-07-2010, 10:36 PM
So, what exactly does placing blame accomplish?

Helps me know where to send my hate mail.

"DO YOU SEE, DWAYNE BOWE? DO YOU SEE? 20 OF 37 CHIEFS FANS BLAMED YOU OVER MATT CASSEL AND BRANDON FLOWERS FOR THIS LOSS. OVER MATT CASSEL, DUDE!!! DO BETTER NEXT WEEK.

- signed, Chiefsplanet poll committee."

Bugeater
11-07-2010, 10:36 PM
So, what exactly does placing blame accomplish?
It gives everyone something else to argue about? :shrug:

cdcox
11-07-2010, 10:36 PM
Clutch? I specifically recall 2 passes in a row thrown towards Bowe that weren't within 10 yards of him.

Do you realize how hard it is to have 3 incomplete passes, a sack and an interception on 5 consecutive plays on the same red zone series? Clutch!

BigMeatballDave
11-07-2010, 10:36 PM
So, what exactly does placing blame accomplish?For guys and football, placing blame for a loss is like a woman struggling to find a reason why the guy wont return their calls the next day. :D

stevieray
11-07-2010, 10:37 PM
Look, it was a close game where we blew at least 10 plays. If we made half of them the game is a blow out. If we make 2 of them it is an easy win. If we make one of them it would have given us the margin of victory. But it's all Bowe's fault.

true, but we had the lead with under two minutes to play, and that drop opened the door.

BigMeatballDave
11-07-2010, 10:38 PM
Biggest goat is the coaching staff for only giving Jamaal 10 carries. That is completely retarded. I know a lot of you pansies think it's a great idea to give Jones twice as many carries, but 10 carries for an explosive threat like Jamaal Charles is utterly ridiculous. Especially when Jones is averaging 1 yard per carry.Are you new around here?

thurman merman
11-07-2010, 10:38 PM
Special teams.

Berry's holding call took a TD return off the board.

Studebaker's holding call took a FG off the board

Nobody touches the returner on the opening kickoff of second half, giving up a TD.

Not fielding the football cleanly for the possesion in OT has us starting inside the 20 yard line, where Weiss is happy to call us an epic 3 and out series.

Yeah, they were absolutely awful.

cdcox
11-07-2010, 10:39 PM
I never said it was all Bowe's fault, that would be stupid. But the title of this thread is Who is the biggest goat. I think in this situation it was Bowe for dropping that pass.

What if another player was the prime blame in a larger number of plays that had a negative impact including ones that cost us points?

One player had one bad play while another player had 10? Do you still blame the player who made one bad play?

thurman merman
11-07-2010, 10:42 PM
Are you new around here?

There are plenty of people on this board who fully support the lack of carries Charles is getting because "the Chiefs are winning, so it must be working."

So what about now, when the Chiefs are losing? Why does Thomas Jones continue to run into Casey Wiegmann's ass over and over and over while the most explosive player on the team sits on the sideline? How can anyone support that?

jbwm89
11-07-2010, 10:44 PM
What if another player was the prime blame in a larger number of plays that had a negative impact including ones that cost us points?

One player had one bad play while another player had 10? Do you still blame the player who made one bad play?

I dunno I guess it would depend on the situation. The other problem is that this is happens with Bowe all the time. he drops balls he should catch and today despite every other mistake we made he still costs us the game with that play.

I am not trying to downplay all of the other things we did shitty today. It just frustrates the hell out of me that despite all of the mistakes we still have our #1 wide receiver drop a routine pass in a situation that wins you the game.

KChiefs1
11-07-2010, 10:45 PM
So, what exactly does placing blame accomplish?

This is what women do best. Bring us back to reality.:)

FAX
11-07-2010, 10:45 PM
Special Teams.

If you had to select only one area to drown in acid, it would be those guys. That return to start the second half combined with the fumble on the very next play hurt us ... badly.

The Cha-Raiders were who we thought they were and we let 'em off the hook.

FAX

cdcox
11-07-2010, 10:47 PM
true, but we had the lead with under two minutes to play, and that drop opened the door.

The leaving 21 points on the field at half time was taking a sledge hammer to the door and reducing to splinters.

The return of the 2nd half kickoff for a TD was setting fire to the splinters.

By the time Bowe missed his play there wasn't even a damn door any more.

Flowers missing the INT, was pretty much blowing up the whole house.

Matt Cassel deciding to throw to LEONARD POPE ???? short of the sticks when Bowe was wide open to start over time was inviting them in to the kid's tree house to have tea.

FAX
11-07-2010, 10:48 PM
There are plenty of people on this board who fully support the lack of carries Charles is getting because "the Chiefs are winning, so it must be working."

So what about now, when the Chiefs are losing? Why does Thomas Jones continue to run into Casey Wiegmann's ass over and over and over while the most explosive player on the team sits on the sideline? How can anyone support that?

I don't think Charles was exactly 100% today ... at least he wasn't as the game wore on, Mr. thurman merman.

As for running TJ early, I figure the idea was that their run defense would eventually fold up. What we didn't anticipate was that our o-line would get their asses kicked.

It is strange that we didn't attack the edges more, though. We seemed to have some success there, yet we kept trying to gain yards between the tackles.

FAX

kcpasco
11-07-2010, 10:50 PM
The leaving 21 points on the field at half time was taking a sledge hammer to the door and reducing to splinters.

The return of the 2nd half kickoff for a TD was setting fire to the splinters.

By the time Bowe missed his play there wasn't even a damn door any more.

Flowers missing the INT, was pretty much blowing up the whole house.

Matt Cassel deciding to throw to LEONARD POPE ???? short of the sticks when Bowe was wide open to start over time was inviting them in to the kid's tree house to have tea.

Well Bowe would have probably just dropped the pass anyways

luv
11-07-2010, 10:56 PM
This is what women do best. Bring us back to reality.:)

Knowing you're talking about me, that sounds weird.

stevieray
11-07-2010, 10:57 PM
The leaving 21 points on the field at half time was taking a sledge hammer to the door and reducing to splinters.

The return of the 2nd half kickoff for a TD was setting fire to the splinters.

By the time Bowe missed his play there wasn't even a damn door any more.

Flowers missing the INT, was pretty much blowing up the whole house.

Matt Cassel deciding to throw to LEONARD POPE ???? short of the sticks when Bowe was wide open to start over time was inviting them in to the kid's tree house to have tea.

..all those and previous plays(sans the OT)didn't matter at the moment when we were still LEADING 20 -17 with under two minutes to play...that drop on that play opened the door for the tie/OT...and the door was kicked wide open with the flag on Washington on third down.

but, even then, the Chiefs got the ball first and Weis's playcalling was crappy..they still had their chance and blew it.

thurman merman
11-07-2010, 11:01 PM
I don't think Charles was exactly 100% today ... at least he wasn't as the game wore on, Mr. thurman merman.

As for running TJ early, I figure the idea was that their run defense would eventually fold up. What we didn't anticipate was that our o-line would get their asses kicked.

It is strange that we didn't attack the edges more, though. We seemed to have some success there, yet we kept trying to gain yards between the tackles.

FAX

He got banged up a couple times near the end of the game, but that's not the point. The point is that he hardly even touched the ball until the 4th quarter, which is completely asinine.

FAX
11-08-2010, 12:18 AM
..all those and previous plays(sans the OT)didn't matter at the moment when we were still LEADING 20 -17 with under two minutes to play...that drop on that play opened the door for the tie/OT...and the door was kicked wide open with the flag on Washington on third down.

but, even then, the Chiefs got the ball first and Weis's playcalling was crappy..they still had their chance and blew it.

I want to believe in Weis ... gall bladder or no gall bladder.

He's freaking me out, though. Sometimes it looks like we're playing a scrimmage or pre-season game out there ... trying to develop offensive players like Cassel, rather than trying to win the game outright.

Lenny says that, when you find something that works, keep doing it until the enemy stops you. That makes some sense ... not that you can be so predictable that you stop yourself, of course. But, there are certain things that seemed to be working consistently today (more or less) and we kept going back to the things that appear more difficult for us and less likely to convert.

Weis is supposed to be good at this. One has to wonder if our coaching staff is really thinking about this year ... or next.

FAX

FAX
11-08-2010, 12:18 AM
He got banged up a couple times near the end of the game, but that's not the point. The point is that he hardly even touched the ball until the 4th quarter, which is completely asinine.

I understand completely.

But, what's your point?

FAX

Bill Brasky
11-08-2010, 12:45 AM
Special Teams

This. It irritates me when one play at the end of the game is deemed "the reason we lost."

Phobia
11-08-2010, 01:00 AM
This. It irritates me when one play at the end of the game is deemed "the reason we lost."

Well, it's a little easier to definitively point a finger at that play because you know what would have happened afterwards. Bowe drops the same pass in the first quarter, nobody notices. But since he dropped it during the clutch... when a catch would have iced the game, he's singled out. I think he deserves it too. This isn't some new development.

Pablo
11-08-2010, 03:06 AM
I chose Bowe but there should be an 'entire team' option. That was just sloppy, undisciplined football. All the stupid penalties....I mean, fuck. We travel to Oakland and then we play exactly like them in their house. Pathetic.

spanky 52
11-08-2010, 04:18 AM
Bowe makes that catch and we're not discussing this. I was pissed all afternoon at the ease in which the Oakland defense was in our backfield so quick. Waters time is up.

xztop12
11-08-2010, 04:21 AM
I made a thread on here saying that the chiefs collapse started with the arrival of Bowe, and got grilled for it and got neg rep ect...

I think in time it will start to show, how many of his drops have cost us games...

xztop12
11-08-2010, 04:22 AM
My point in that thread was that when you have a consistently bad team then you have to start looking at the "stars" of that team as the problem, as the crap and bottom of the roster is recycled often. Well to me, when we drafted Bowe is when we started to suck.

suds79
11-08-2010, 06:11 AM
I think Bowe would still win this vote but I would have liked to see special teams at least as an option in this poll.

Ever since week 1, they haven't done squat.

Extra Point
11-08-2010, 06:20 AM
Sure, Bowe could have made that 4th QTR catch. Sure, Flowers could have batted down that ball. Look at McGraw in the 4th QTR, then let's argue more.

This was a team loss. Look at the number of penalties.

King_Chief_Fan
11-08-2010, 06:29 AM
Team loss.......I put most on Coaches........really bad play calling.

Trying to make this team a passing team and Charles not getting his carries.

Sully
11-08-2010, 07:26 AM
Only one of these three had an opportunity to make a relatively routine play that 90% of players in their position make every time.

Bowe fo sho

I disagree.
On the INT, a QB who has no pressure and a wide open WR in the end zone for a very short pass? Doesn't get more routine than that.

Chief Henry
11-08-2010, 07:31 AM
I chose Bowe but there should be an 'entire team' option. That was just sloppy, undisciplined football. All the stupid penalties....I mean, ****. We travel to Oakland and then we play exactly like them in their house. Pathetic.

Bowe is the easiest target for sure. The whole team looked like dog meat except for #91 T. Hali......he was busting his ass all game long. It appears he gets it in a big way.

All the penalties were just f'n stupid. At least 10 points were taken off the board because of penalties. Matt Cassels pick before halftime was absolutley BRUTAL. Cassel had a HORSE SHIT GAME FOR SURE. How many times did he miss wide open receivers with high passes ?


Oakland was plan lucky that our intire organization looked like it ate shit sandwichs before getting off the team bus toplay the game.

Chiefnj2
11-08-2010, 07:31 AM
1. Coaching.
2. Special Teams.
3. Flowers
4. Bowe
5. Cassel

In that order.

Chief Henry
11-08-2010, 07:33 AM
Clutch? I specifically recall 2 passes in a row thrown towards Bowe that weren't within 10 yards of him.

Cassel missed by a mile on several throws.

CupidStunt
11-08-2010, 07:35 AM
Lots of sub-reasons, but the ultimate blame falls with the guy running Jones up the gut for 1 yard while keep Charles on the bench, who did nothing but make yards when in the game.

Simply idiotic and inexcusable.

ChiTown
11-08-2010, 07:39 AM
Lots of sub-reasons, but the ultimate blame falls with the guy running Jones up the gut for 1 yard while keep Charles on the bench, who did nothing but make yards when in the game.

Simply idiotic and inexcusable.

Mind-numbing for sure. I kept thinking it had to be because JC was banged up. Otherwise, it's a massive WTF!

Molitoth
11-08-2010, 07:41 AM
Ok:

Flowers = Maybe effed up on 1 or 2 plays
Bowe = Dropped a critical pass
Cassel = Made bullshit horrendous throws all f*cking day long.


I don't see how you morons cannot put the blame on Cassel..... He messes up Quadruple the amount of times than anyone else on the field.

Chief Henry
11-08-2010, 07:42 AM
So many missed opportunities in this game....

Dropped passes on offense.
Penalties
Dropped interceptions.
Penalties
Brutal pass attempts by Cassel.
Penalties
Special teams brain farts.
Penalties
Poor punt attempt by Succop after having the FG whipped out by a penalty.
penalties
Defense not covering the Raiders go to receiver end of game.
Penalties
O line not run blocking good enough, especially on key short yardage plays
Penalties
Play calling
Penalties
MENTAL TOUGHNESS

HC_Chief
11-08-2010, 07:46 AM
1. Coaching. (35 passes by shitty CASSEL)
2. Special Teams.
3. Flowers
4. Bowe

In that order.

Fixed your post

Sofa King
11-08-2010, 07:56 AM
Weis is the goat

Earthling
11-08-2010, 08:06 AM
I blame the fans. :p

Chiefnj2
11-08-2010, 08:22 AM
At the end of the day KC is improving, but still has major problems:

1. A QB who can't take it to the next level.
2. Piss poor WRs.
3. No consistent pass rush except for 1 player. (although great job by Berry on blitzes this week).
4. Short yardage running game is horrible.

ForeverChiefs58
11-08-2010, 08:25 AM
Everytime he drops back to pass I hold my breath and curse that a running play wasn't called. He sucks really bad. Sometimes he makes a good throw, and I get so excited and think maybe he doesn't suck that bad. Then with the game on the line he throws five yards over their heads and five yards behind them.

MahiMike
11-08-2010, 10:26 AM
This list is way too small. You forgot:

Ryan Lilja - His false start cost us 3 big points
McGraw - Missing another int
Weiss/Haley - for sending our rookie TE deep on 3rd and 1 instead of a WR
TBD WR - the missing WR that's not yet on this team
The field - that miserable excuse for a field took away our running game and therefore our game plan
Dexter McCluster - for being hurt when we needed him bad.

Otter
11-08-2010, 10:34 AM
As good as the o-line has been playing there's still problems there too. The Raiders DL dominated them yesterday. That's gonna happen when you get to the playoffs and start playing against elite teams as well as the occasional Raiders.