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KChiefs1
11-09-2010, 10:46 AM
http://arrowheadaddict.com/2010/11/09/lack-of-quality-receivers-hurting-the-chiefs/

Lack Of Quality Receivers Hurting The Chiefs
Updated 11/09/2010 10:58 AM
by Patrick Allen


It is time to throw Kansas City Chiefs QB Matt Cassel a bone.

If you've been reading this site for more than a couple of weeks, you know that I have been highly critical of Cassel. I have particularly been hard on him about his completion percentage which has spent more time on the wrong side of 60 percent than I would like. However, now that we are halfway through the season I think it is time to give the Chiefs signal caller another look.

After giving it much thought I think that Matt Cassel is in a very tough position with this year's team. He is a Quarterback with no receivers.


Scott Pioli has had a lot of his bets pay off this season but one of his failures has been the resigning of WR Chris Chambers. I think even Pioli was worried about Chambers which is why he waited so long to resign him and in the interim, tried to trade for Anquan Boldin. It came down to the Chiefs and the Ravens battling for Boldin's services and in the end, the Ravens were willing to give up more draft picks than the Chiefs. For the record, I think Pioli did the right thing, especially considering the talent level of his 2010 draft class. Boldin woul dhave helped out a lot this year but these rookies will be more valuable in the long run.

After failing to make the trade for Boldin, Pioli resigned Chris Chambers. He also drafted WR Dexter McCluster who he figured could be a solid outlet for Cassel in the slot.

He was kind of right.

McCluster is a dynamic weapon but he wasn't ready to step in and be an impact receiver from day one. Most of the damage McCluster has done this season has come when he has lined up in the backfield. That doesn't mean that McCluster isn't going to turn in to a good receiver, it simply means he is a rookie who wasn't that experienced at receiver to begin with, learning to play the position at the NFL level. It was always going to take time.

The other side of the Chambers/McCluster bet, however, is what has hurt the Chiefs and Cassel the most. Chambers is a bum. I don't know if he just got old or if he really does quit once he gets paid. I'm not sure what goes on in the head of a guy who would get a restraining order against a woman and then marry her a few months later. All I do know is that they guy hasn't shown up this year and it doesn't appear he is going to show up any time soon. He is dead weight but unfortunately, he is all we've got.

Before being overly critical of Cassel, you have to look at what the dude is working with. He's got Bowe and thenÖerÖ

McCluster (injured)

Terry Copper

Chris Chambers

Verran Tucker

Seriously? Look, the way Chambers is playing he would probably get cut by most NFL teams at this point. Tuker and Copper wouldn't even BE on other NFL teams. Maybe Copper would sneak on a squad as a special teamer but you can bet your behind he wouldn't be lining up at receiver.

Cassel is doing the best he can with what he has to work with. The last two games he has had three targets:

Dwayne Bowe

The teamís best receiver is actually having a pretty decent season. He has a few drops but for the most part, he has been very productive.

Tony Moeaki

Moeaki is the Chiefs second best wide receiver and he is a freaking tight end!

Jamaal Charles

The teamís third best wide receiver, Jamaal Charles, is also the leagues best second string running back.

When McCluster comes back, heíll slide back in tot he #3 slot and Charles can go back to being a backup running back.

And before you all start going gaga over Verran Tucker, remember that his spectacular TD catch from Sunday is his ONLY catch in the three weeks that he has been active. This isn't an indictment on Tucker. The dude has potential but he isn't getting open and right now, that is what Cassel needs.

The reason the Chiefs threw so much against the Raiders is because Oakland wasin single coverage all day long with no safties. People have been talking about how Oakland's strategy was an indictment on Cassel. They've been saying the Raiders didn't believe Cassel could beat them. I disagree with this. I think the Raiders believed the Chiefs receivers couldn't beat them and they were right. Look Bowe has never been a burner but you are telling me not Chambers, Copper or Tucker could put a good enough move on their man to blow by them and get wide open over the top? If the Raiders tried that kind of crap on the Indianapolis Colts Peyton Manning would throw for 37 touchdowns. Every time Cassel completed a pass Sunday, his man was covered pretty well. There were very few passes that went to wide open receivers.

While watching Sunday's game, the guy across from me kept bemoaning that Cassel wasn't throwing the ball. He wasn't throwing it because he can't see wide open receivers. He wasn't throwing it because there were no open receivers. It is obvious that the Chiefs and Cassel have made it a priority to take care of the football. Cassel is under strict instructions not to force passes and to get rid of the ball if he senses trouble, even if that means throwing it away. He has been doing that and the results, for the most part, have been positive.

Cassel is doing a fine job of hitting Moeaki and Bowe when they are open. He is fairly efficient at hitting Charles when he comes out of the backfield. Before Dexter McCluster got injured, Cassel started finding him more down field as well. He just doesn't have the tools he needs in the receiving game. Philip Rivers might be able to succeed with receivers off the street but Cassel is no Philip Rivers. * I think the Chiefs passing game is going to continue to struggle until they get Dexter McCluster back. I think the presence of McCluster helps both Bowe and Moeaki. It will also keep Jamaal Charles in the backfield where he belongs. With the absence of McCluster, the Chiefs have been using Charles a little more in the passing game because they know they need another threat out there. *

The*Cassel lead Chiefs will likely never be a passing team but if they donít get some more help at the WR position soon, KCís air attack will stay grounded.

Count Zarth
11-09-2010, 10:48 AM
Before Dexter McCluster got injured, Cassel started finding him more down field as well.

Down the field as in, one yard down the field?

LaChapelle
11-09-2010, 10:52 AM
Day Rome Built Not

Fish
11-09-2010, 10:53 AM
Cassel needs more weapons. All those weapons that we added last offseason have proven insufficient... We need 3 Jerry Rice clones, and Cassel will flourish... maybe...

Pants
11-09-2010, 10:55 AM
What kind of weapons are Philip Rivers and Peyton Manning enjoying right now? Shut the **** up, Patrick Allen.

FAX
11-09-2010, 10:55 AM
ROFL

FAX

Just Passin' By
11-09-2010, 10:57 AM
The Chiefs WR corps being lousy isn't exactly news.

Mr. Laz
11-09-2010, 10:59 AM
it's true, neither our QB or WR's are particularly good.

our offense tackles are nothing to write home about either


so the 3 main parts of an nfl passing game are weak on the Chiefs ... not good.

Champ
11-09-2010, 10:59 AM
This is another reason why Chief fans shouldn't be talking about playoffs.

This is a passing leaugue and you have by far the worst passing game in the NFL.

The Raiders disrespected Matt Cassel and your receivers all day by manning up on them, with little to no safety help over the top. And you still couldn't beat them.

Damn.

Count Zarth
11-09-2010, 11:05 AM
http://uranus.ckt.net/%7Egochiefs/billies/new/casselsux.gif

Mr. Laz
11-09-2010, 11:08 AM
http://uranus.ckt.net/%7Egochiefs/billies/new/casselsux.gif
where the gif of bowe dropping the ball on his gaming winn err losing drop?

cherry picking bitch

L.A. Chieffan
11-09-2010, 11:09 AM
The sweet comfort of mediocrity calls thy name.

Puke.

Sure-Oz
11-09-2010, 11:31 AM
Lack of quality WR's sure hurt Rivers

Tribal Warfare
11-09-2010, 11:37 AM
where the gif of bowe dropping the ball on his gaming winn err losing drop?

cherry picking bitch

or how about the 3 and out during OT?

Molitoth
11-09-2010, 11:49 AM
Philip Rivers might be able to succeed with receivers off the street but Cassel is no Philip Rivers

It doesn't matter what Chiefs receivers are on the field.... Matt knows who he is throwing the ball to when he exits the huddle.... he then stares them down and throws it to them in double/triple coverage. If this isn't the case, it's because Cassel saw a defensive lineman out of the corner of his eye 8 yards away and paniced to throw to the checkdown.

Molitoth
11-09-2010, 11:50 AM
For the chiefs to put a bunch of money into proven name WR's.... it would be like putting a Turbo on a Ford Pinto. It's pointless when your QB blows.

Deberg_1990
11-09-2010, 11:51 AM
Why can Manning and Rivers make practice squad guys look like seasoned vets right from the start??

Just Passin' By
11-09-2010, 12:00 PM
Why can Manning and Rivers make practice squad guys look like seasoned vets right from the start??

Manning's numbers have suffered with the injuries to his receivers, and that's with still having a receiver the caliber of Reggie Wayne out on the field. Brady's numbers have suffered with the absence of Moss and the injury situation with Branch and Welker.

PunkinDrublic
11-09-2010, 12:01 PM
This is another reason why Chief fans shouldn't be talking about playoffs.

This is a passing leaugue and you have by far the worst passing game in the NFL.

The Raiders disrespected Matt Cassel and your receivers all day by manning up on them, with little to no safety help over the top. And you still couldn't beat them.

Damn.

Quit acting like you blew us out you ignorant f@ggot.

Count Zarth
11-09-2010, 12:03 PM
The fact that we have one legit WR on this team is an indictment of Scott Pioli.

He should be raked over the coals for not bringing in Anquan Boldin and spending a 2nd round pick on Dexter McGimmick.

Pants
11-09-2010, 12:12 PM
Manning's numbers have suffered with the injuries to his receivers, and that's with still having a receiver the caliber of Reggie Wayne out on the field. Brady's numbers have suffered with the absence of Moss and the injury situation with Branch and Welker.

Are you not aware of the GIFed UP thread? Sometimes you can see interesting things in there. Things like open receivers being ignored by Matt Cassel, for example. I know it's shocking, but you should probably head over there and take a look.

the Talking Can
11-09-2010, 12:17 PM
so, last year's excuse is still this year's excuse?



too bad Cassel doesn't have a running game to take the pressure off him....

Rausch
11-09-2010, 12:20 PM
so, last year's excuse is still this year's excuse?



too bad Cassel doesn't have a running game to take the pressure off him....

Or a decent offensive line.

Or a solid OC.
:rolleyes:

Tuckdaddy
11-09-2010, 12:21 PM
What kind of weapons are Philip Rivers and Peyton Manning enjoying right now? Shut the **** up, Patrick Allen.

WTF? The back up WR's on those teams are all world compared to ours. Herm got rid of all speed at the position. He wanted them all to be Giants like Bowe.

Warrior5
11-09-2010, 12:26 PM
Related topic: anyone know McCluster's status?

the Talking Can
11-09-2010, 12:28 PM
Or a decent offensive line.

Or a solid OC.
:rolleyes:

or a draft full of playmakers

Reerun_KC
11-09-2010, 12:30 PM
I think there have been plenty of times that Cassel has hurt more than helped...

Yes our WR's blow ass, but so does our QB.... Neither are helping either out...

Suck + Suck = Suck....

milkman
11-09-2010, 12:33 PM
Has anyone watched the Giants?

His receivers have let balls go right through their hands into the DB's hands for interceptions.

They probably have as many, if not more, drops than the Chiefs receivers.

But Eli Manning overcomes the mistakes and continues to make plays and lead that team to wins.

Eli is a Manning, but he ain't Peyton.

He's a good, even very good QB.

But that is the difference between a backup QB (Cassel) and an NFL calibre starting QB.

Three7s
11-09-2010, 12:34 PM
This is another reason why Chief fans shouldn't be talking about playoffs.

This is a passing leaugue and you have by far the worst passing game in the NFL.

The Raiders disrespected Matt Cassel and your receivers all day by manning up on them, with little to no safety help over the top. And you still couldn't beat them.

Damn.
This is another reason why Raiders fans shouldn't be thinking about breaking out of jail to buy playoff tickets.

The Chiefs WRs and QB are about as good that of MU's, which aren't very good. Even with the Chiefs terribad passing attack, you still managed to give up 2 passing TDs, one to a guy who's hardly played a game in his life.

On defense, the Chiefs disrespected the Raiders all day by blitzing guys like Berry, thus no safety help. What does that say about Campbell? The difference is Ford is better than any loser WR the Chiefs have on the team. Of course, it still went to OT, even with a bunch of joke WRs.


See? I can do a troll post too.:rolleyes:

Just Passin' By
11-09-2010, 12:37 PM
Are you not aware of the GIFed UP thread? Sometimes you can see interesting things in there. Things like open receivers being ignored by Matt Cassel, for example. I know it's shocking, but you should probably head over there and take a look.

Cassel's not a top 5 quarterback. That's not news. Neither are all but 5 quarterbacks in the league. However, every QB misfires on throws. Every QB misses open receivers.

That doesn't change the reality of how much help/harm the team's wide receivers are bringing to the table, which is what this thread's OP was about.

milkman
11-09-2010, 12:38 PM
Colt McCoy, a third round rookie QB is throwing to a who's who of scrub receivers, and he has looked better in three starts than Cassel has looked in 30+ starts.

Pestilence
11-09-2010, 01:16 PM
Matt Cassel has run out of excuses. He's not a starting QB.

FAX
11-09-2010, 01:18 PM
Colt McCoy, a third round rookie QB is throwing to a who's who of scrub receivers, and he has looked better in three starts than Cassel has looked in 30+ starts.

That's really the key point, right there ... for us Chiefs fans, I mean.

A combination of homervision, hope, and helplessness are causing people (including me, by the way) to look for the lipstick on Cassel's performances. I was watching Ruthlessburger last night and it struck me that there is a vast difference in things like footwork, throwing mechanics, reads, etc. between Cassel and guys like him. And I absolutely despise Ruthlessburger.

Given that I've grown accustomed to Cassel's delivery and resigned myself to the fact that his relatively slow release is due, in part, to his size, I was kind of stunned watching a big guy like Ruthlessburger who can (when he wants/needs to) get the ball out really, really fast and be extremely accurate (on the quick slant in the face of blitz pressure, for example).

It's sad because I know in my heart of hearts that Haley would like a dependable, consistent quarterback who can develop the passing game on this young team. Surely, he and Weis could draw up some interesting stuff with a guy who can consistently make reads and all the necessary professional throws. I have to believe that Haley dreams of a passing game that can compete with our rushing offense.

FAX

Deberg_1990
11-09-2010, 01:27 PM
Has anyone watched the Giants?

His receivers have let balls go right through their hands into the DB's hands for interceptions.

They probably have as many, if not more, drops than the Chiefs receivers.

But Eli Manning overcomes the mistakes and continues to make plays and lead that team to wins.

Eli is a Manning, but he ain't Peyton.

He's a good, even very good QB.

But that is the difference between a backup QB (Cassel) and an NFL calibre starting QB.

Just a guess, but Manning probably gets more attempts per game than Cassel does?

There are times i wish the Chiefs would let Cassel attempt more passes. Depends on the game situation....

Pestilence
11-09-2010, 01:29 PM
Just a guess, but Manning probably gets more attempts pre game than Cassel does?

There are times i wish the Chiefs would let Cassel attempt more passes. Depends on the game situation....

They don't because they know what he is. This gameplan is tailored to make Cassel look decent....and it's not even doing that.

milkman
11-09-2010, 01:30 PM
Just a guess, but Manning probably gets more attempts per game than Cassel does?

There are times i wish the Chiefs would let Cassel attempt more passes. Depends on the game situation....

E Manning averages roughly 7.5 more attempts per game.

Count Zarth
11-09-2010, 01:33 PM
This hasn't really been discussed enough but consider this:

Both of the Chiefs TD "drives" were aided by the refs.

They gifted us with 40 yards on a bogus pass interference and with a 30-yard field on the bogus fumble.

Basically the only way we were scoring a TD in that game was the refs.

Without a running game Cassel couldn't lead a real drive worth a shit in that game, and he proved it in overtime.

Reerun_KC
11-09-2010, 01:39 PM
Matt Cassel has run out of excuses. He's not a starting QB.

Agree 100%, Send him packin along with Bowe...

FAX
11-09-2010, 01:41 PM
This hasn't really been discussed enough but consider this:

Both of the Chiefs TD "drives" were aided by the refs.

They gifted us with 40 yards on a bogus pass interference and with a 30-yard field on the bogus fumble.

Basically the only way we were scoring a TD in that game was the refs.

Without a running game Cassel couldn't lead a real drive worth a shit in that game, and he proved it in overtime.

If you ever took the time to read my fascinating, insightful posts, you would know that it actually has been discussed, Mr. GoghChiefs.

This offense cannot seem to sustain a long drive without help. More often than not, we enter the redzone with assistance from the enemy or the refs or both. I think that's one of the reasons for all the 4th down calls.

FAX

Deberg_1990
11-09-2010, 01:43 PM
If you had to choose one QB for a "game winning drive" who would it be?

1. Bono
2. Grbac
3. Cassel

Count Zarth
11-09-2010, 01:46 PM
Grbac: 50 percent chance he wins the game, 50 percent chance he throws the ball in bounds with no timeouts left and 10 seconds on the clock.

Bono: 25 percent chance he wins the game, 50 percent chance he throws four straight incompletions, 25 percent chance he throws an interception.

Cassel: 10 percent chance he wins the game, 90 percent chance the drive stalls around midfield and he throws a Hail Ducky that hits the crossbar.

Pestilence
11-09-2010, 01:50 PM
Agree 100%, Send him packin along with Bowe...

I'm not like everyone else.....I'm not giving up on Bowe.

Bowe has 4 drops on the year. 4 in fucking 8 games.

http://stats.washingtonpost.com/fb/leaders.asp?range=nfl&type=receiving&rank=232

Have they come at the most inopportune times? Yes. But FFS.....look at who is ahead of him on that list.

Sofa King
11-09-2010, 02:16 PM
I'm not like everyone else.....I'm not giving up on Bowe.

Bowe has 4 drops on the year. 4 in ****ing 8 games.

http://stats.washingtonpost.com/fb/leaders.asp?range=nfl&type=receiving&rank=232

Have they come at the most inopportune times? Yes. But FFS.....look at who is ahead of him on that list.

i see no reason that bowe needs to be off the team..

this thread really should be the wr's are getting no help due to a shitty ass horrible fucking QB.

Fish
11-09-2010, 02:18 PM
I'm not like everyone else.....I'm not giving up on Bowe.

Bowe has 4 drops on the year. 4 in fucking 8 games.

http://stats.washingtonpost.com/fb/leaders.asp?range=nfl&type=receiving&rank=232

Have they come at the most inopportune times? Yes. But FFS.....look at who is ahead of him on that list.

Yup.

Check this....

Tell me what the following players all have in common:

Miles Austin
Randy Moss
T.O.
Wes Welker
Andre Johnson
Brandon Marshall
Steve Smith(C)
Reggie Wayne
Mike Williams (Both Sea and TB)

Every one of these players has more drops and less TDs this season than Dwayne Bowe.

Chiefnj2
11-09-2010, 02:25 PM
Yup.

Check this....

Tell me what the following players all have in common:

Miles Austin
Randy Moss
T.O.
Wes Welker
Andre Johnson
Brandon Marshall
Steve Smith(C)
Reggie Wayne
Mike Williams (Both Sea and TB)

Every one of these players has more drops and less TDs this season than Dwayne Bowe.

All I know is Andre Johnson CAUGHT his game winning TD, and didn't let the ball him in the damn chest and bounce to the turf.

Pestilence
11-09-2010, 02:28 PM
All I know is Andre Johnson CAUGHT his game winning TD, and didn't let the ball him in the damn chest and bounce to the turf.

Nope....but he did drop a critical pass that resulted in an INT that ended the game.

milkman
11-09-2010, 02:28 PM
All I know is Andre Johnson CAUGHT his game winning TD, and didn't let the ball him in the damn chest and bounce to the turf.

Andre Johnson also let a perfect pass that hit him in his hands in stride on what might have been a game winning drive go right through his hands and into the hands of a DB for a game ending interception against the Chargers.

Count Zarth
11-09-2010, 02:29 PM
People should really stop bitching about Bowe.

Put him on a team with a legit QB and he probably has 700 yards right now.

Fish
11-09-2010, 02:31 PM
All I know is Andre Johnson CAUGHT his game winning TD, and didn't let the ball him in the damn chest and bounce to the turf.

Well, this isn't meant to say Bowe is better than all the players on that list. He's not.

The purpose of this was to show that Bowe is quietly having a decent year and has improved on his drops and TDs. People are calling to throw him off the team. Hell, I heard a caller on 810 today say that he'd hate it if the Chiefs got to the Superbowl this year, cause Bowe might drop a pass.

milkman
11-09-2010, 02:34 PM
Well, this isn't meant to say Bowe is better than all the players on that list. He's not.

The purpose of this was to show that Bowe is quietly having a decent year and has improved on his drops and TDs. People are calling to throw him off the team. Hell, I heard a caller on 810 today say that he'd hate it if the Chiefs got to the Superbowl this year, cause Bowe might drop a pass.

People lack perspective.

Sure-Oz
11-09-2010, 02:37 PM
Well, this isn't meant to say Bowe is better than all the players on that list. He's not.

The purpose of this was to show that Bowe is quietly having a decent year and has improved on his drops and TDs. People are calling to throw him off the team. Hell, I heard a caller on 810 today say that he'd hate it if the Chiefs got to the Superbowl this year, cause Bowe might drop a pass.

I heard that too, the idiot would rather not be in the SB with bowe and have a different WR and not be in the SB

****ing moron

Sofa King
11-09-2010, 03:34 PM
People should really stop bitching about Bowe.

Put him on a team with a legit QB and he probably has 700 yards right now.

Something like this.......



fucking Cassel....

i pray a top 3 QB falls to us in the draft...

Chiefaholic
11-09-2010, 04:59 PM
Yeah... It's the WR's fault that they don't have a 60" vertical jump to catch the balls 10 foot over their heads. Quality WR's catch balls thrown 5 feet behind their backs on crossing routes and balls that hit the turf 5 yards in front of them. Sure Bowe has his faults, but I'de like to see how many "catchable passes" he drops when the QB hits him in the numbers in stride.

Chiefaholic
11-09-2010, 05:01 PM
If you had to choose one QB for a "game winning drive" who would it be?

1. Bono
2. Grbac
3. Cassel

Grbac

michaelj_58
11-09-2010, 05:09 PM
receiver will be a top priority this coming offseason

TEX
11-09-2010, 05:11 PM
The lack of quality WR's has been a constant for the past 20 + years or so. Think about it...

TEX
11-09-2010, 05:13 PM
People should really stop bitching about Bowe.

Put him on a team with a legit QB and he probably has 700 yards right now.

No way. Bowe will get in his own way regardless of the QB.

chiefzilla1501
11-09-2010, 05:19 PM
This hasn't really been discussed enough but consider this:

Both of the Chiefs TD "drives" were aided by the refs.

They gifted us with 40 yards on a bogus pass interference and with a 30-yard field on the bogus fumble.

Basically the only way we were scoring a TD in that game was the refs.

Without a running game Cassel couldn't lead a real drive worth a shit in that game, and he proved it in overtime.

I think that's an unfair statement to make given that the 2nd play was a designed screen to Moeaki that was blown up and the 3rd down play, there was nobody open.

I was originally pissed at Cassel for not doing better in OT. But looking back at the tape, I don't think that was his fault. Not this game. To me, the biggest reason we lost OT was Charlie Weis, not Cassel.

TEX
11-09-2010, 05:29 PM
I think that's an unfair statement to make given that the 2nd play was a designed screen to Moeaki that was blown up and the 3rd down play, there was nobody open.

I was originally pissed at Cassel for not doing better in OT. But looking back at the tape, I don't think that was his fault. Not this game. To me, the biggest reason we lost OT was Charlie Weis, not Cassel.

I agree in part. Cassel did his job on the last drive of the 4th quarter. He got the ball to Bowe, it was a bit under thrown but very "catchable." We all know what happened. The moment was there - Bowe didn't seize it. The game never should have gone into OT.

boogblaster
11-09-2010, 05:29 PM
We're building .. in need of a couple WRs .. another LBer .. another good OLman .. and draft a QBOTF .......

BigMeatballDave
11-09-2010, 05:37 PM
Matt Cassel is hurting Matt Cassel.

MahiMike
11-09-2010, 05:40 PM
Why can Manning and Rivers make practice squad guys look like seasoned vets right from the start??

Come on. That's not fair.

Pestilence
11-09-2010, 05:57 PM
Why is that there is always a fucking excuse for Matt Cassel....but everyone around him gets shit on?

FFS. The common person in all of this is Cassel. It falls on him.

chiefzilla1501
11-09-2010, 06:13 PM
Why is that there is always a ****ing excuse for Matt Cassel....but everyone around him gets shit on?

FFS. The common person in all of this is Cassel. It falls on him.

I'm pretty sure there are a handful on CP who do that. And a massive amount of people who are so thirsty for Cassel blood that they refuse to believe that anybody but Cassel could have fucked up a play, even when evidence shows it's not true.

In this case, based on what I've seen from the video, the end of the game is a lot more on the receivers and Weis than it is on Cassel.

milkman
11-09-2010, 06:28 PM
I'm pretty sure there are a handful on CP who do that. And a massive amount of people who are so thirsty for Cassel blood that they refuse to believe that anybody but Cassel could have ****ed up a play, even when evidence shows it's not true.

In this case, based on what I've seen from the video, the end of the game is a lot more on the receivers and Weis than it is on Cassel.

You know, I agree that the drop by Bowe is on Bowe at the end of the day.

However, I also believe that a consistent QB, not a great QB, makes receivers look pretty good because of their consistency.

Trent Green serves as an example of that.

An inconsistent QB makes inconsistent receivers look worse than they are.

In other words, Cassel's inconsistency contributes to Bowe's inconsistency.

chiefzilla1501
11-09-2010, 07:02 PM
You know, I agree that the drop by Bowe is on Bowe at the end of the day.

However, I also believe that a consistent QB, not a great QB, makes receivers look pretty good because of their consistency.

Trent Green serves as an example of that.

An inconsistent QB makes inconsistent receivers look worse than they are.

In other words, Cassel's inconsistency contributes to Bowe's inconsistency.

Our QB isn't very good. I just have issues when we use hatred for our QB to make excuses for our receivers when they don't play well. In this particular OT, they didn't get open.

To your point about consistency, yeah, I think that's definitely entirely possible. But against Oakland at the end of regulation and in OT, I don't believe it applies.

milkman
11-09-2010, 07:07 PM
Our QB isn't very good. I just have issues when we use hatred for our QB to make excuses for our receivers when they don't play well. In this particular OT, they didn't get open.

To your point about consistency, yeah, I think that's definitely entirely possible. But against Oakland at the end of regulation and in OT, I don't believe it applies.

Bowe has to make that catch, no question.

Just another observation about the reasons that Cassel is a target.

chiefzilla1501
11-09-2010, 07:08 PM
Bowe has to make that catch, no question.

Just another observation about the reasons that Cassel is a target.

Noted. For the record, I don't have a problem with Cassel being a target. Most of the time he deserves it.

Just Passin' By
11-09-2010, 07:13 PM
Not referring to Cassel, but talking in general...

Shitty receivers make QBs look worse than they are.

Shitty O-lines make QBs look worse than they are.

Shitty running games make QBs look worse than they are.


The QB position is dependent upon other positions for success in a way that's unlike every other position on the field. Jeff Garcia could play in Philly, S.F. and, to a lesser extent, even Tampa Bay, but he shit the bed in Cleveland and Detroit. People who ignore the impact of dropped passes, lack of separation, poor route running and the like really have no business trying to evaluate QBs.

milkman
11-09-2010, 07:24 PM
Not referring to Cassel, but talking in general...

Shitty receivers make QBs look worse than they are.

Shitty O-lines make QBs look worse than they are.

Shitty running games make QBs look worse than they are.


The QB position is dependent upon other positions for success in a way that's unlike every other position on the field. Jeff Garcia could play in Philly, S.F. and, to a lesser extent, even Tampa Bay, but he shit the bed in Cleveland and Detroit. People who ignore the impact of dropped passes, lack of separation, poor route running and the like really have no business trying to evaluate QBs.

On the flipside, shitty Qbs make WRs look worse than they are.
Shitty QBs make O-lines look worse than they are.
Shitty QBs make running games look worse than they are.

See David Carr.

jd1020
11-09-2010, 07:33 PM
Cassel has a hard time hitting a screen pass let alone a down field pass. He's a back up quarterback at best. If Pioli has any brain he'll cut Cassel at the end of the season and avoid paying the ridiculous 7.5m bonus and resign Croyle. Croyle can easily do what they are asking of Cassel but Croyle has the confidence to throw a pass beyond 10 yards.

Depending on how the rest of the season goes and what draft pick the Chiefs end up with I think theres a real chance that Baldwin would land in the Chiefs lap. I dont see the Chiefs making the playoffs. We'll probably split with the Broncos, Rivers is going to go off on us in SD, and I wouldn't be suprised if Bradford lights us up. That puts us at 10-6 at best but I wouldnt be suprised if we find a way to lose one other game for the same reason we lost to the Raiders and 9-7 isn't going to beat the Chargers. So if we can get Baldwin, start Croyle and get a backup in the 2nd/3rd rounds because by week 3 Croyle will be on the IR. Otherwise I think we need to take a QB in the first round.

chiefzilla1501
11-09-2010, 07:39 PM
On the flipside, shitty Qbs make WRs look worse than they are.
Shitty QBs make O-lines look worse than they are.
Shitty QBs make running games look worse than they are.

See David Carr.

Agreed on all those points.

But in the case of the Chiefs, on the WRs, there's give and take. Moeaki is the only receiver on this team that consistently gets separation. I think Bowe is a good receiver at positioning his body to make a catch once it's in the air, but I don't think he's an overly consistent route runner. And McCluster would be so much more effective if we had an effective receiver at #1 who can stretch the field.

Again, not making excuses for Cassel because he misses way too many passes that he should hit. But no doubt we are missing some very critical pieces at receiver.

Just Passin' By
11-09-2010, 07:41 PM
On the flipside, shitty Qbs make WRs look worse than they are.
Shitty QBs make O-lines look worse than they are.
Shitty QBs make running games look worse than they are.

See David Carr.

You're absolutely correct. But, as I noted before, this was about the receivers hurting the QB/team, not the other way around.

Also, just a quick note, specific to the Chiefs:

The O-line and the WRs sucked in 2009, regardless of who the QB was going to be. This year, the O-line's been improved, but the WRs still suck.

That's independent of Cassel.

chiefzilla1501
11-09-2010, 07:43 PM
You're absolutely correct. But, as I noted before, this was about the receivers hurting the QB/team, not the other way around.

Also, just a quick note, specific to the Chiefs:

The O-line and the WRs sucked in 2009, regardless of who the QB was going to be. This year, the O-line's been improved, but the WRs still suck.

That's independent of Cassel.

There are more than enough examples of Cassel misfiring to an open receiver in 2010. It's not independent of Cassel.

KCChiefsFan88
11-09-2010, 07:49 PM
The Chiefs had a chance to sign TO this past offseason.

milkman
11-09-2010, 07:50 PM
You're absolutely correct. But, as I noted before, this was about the receivers hurting the QB/team, not the other way around.

Also, just a quick note, specific to the Chiefs:

The O-line and the WRs sucked in 2009, regardless of who the QB was going to be. This year, the O-line's been improved, but the WRs still suck.

That's independent of Cassel.

Yes the O-Line was bad and the WRs sucked, but Matt Cassel made them look worse than they were, and still makes them look worse than they are.

salame
11-09-2010, 07:51 PM
I wish we would had been able to draft revis instead of bowe

milkman
11-09-2010, 07:51 PM
The Chiefs had a chance to sign TO this past offseason.

And thankfully they didn't.

googlegoogle
11-09-2010, 08:34 PM
Even the commentators said no one on KC receiving corps could get open therefore the need to resort to screens which the Raiders laughed off.

googlegoogle
11-09-2010, 08:36 PM
Yes the O-Line was bad and the WRs sucked, but Matt Cassel made them look worse than they were, and still makes them look worse than they are.

So Cassel should throw the ball to himself ?? ROFL

BossChief
11-09-2010, 08:44 PM
Good quarterbacks don't need receivers to be wide the fuck open to complete passes to them.

Cassel needs a strobe light above the head of a wide open receiver to even see him.

Dylan
11-09-2010, 08:45 PM
Rome Wasn't Built In A Day

Maybe that's because there wasn't any Jews on the job.

Sincerely,

My aunt



true story LMAO

chiefzilla1501
11-09-2010, 08:47 PM
Good quarterbacks don't need receivers to be wide the **** open to complete passes to them.

Cassel needs a strobe light above the head of a wide open receiver to even see him.

I think Cassel's been late on one or two throws the last few games and I'm seeing him start to look off receivers. But I think his decision making has improved quite a bit.

His problem continues to be accuracy and footwork, which is largely a byproduct of getting too antsy in the pocket because he doesn't have good enough pocket recognition.

ForeverChiefs58
11-09-2010, 08:48 PM
http://uranus.ckt.net/~gochiefs/billies/new/8xswup.jpg.gif

http://uranus.ckt.net/~gochiefs/billies/new/casselsux2.gif

Just Passin' By
11-09-2010, 08:51 PM
Yes the O-Line was bad and the WRs sucked, but Matt Cassel made them look worse than they were, and still makes them look worse than they are.

Cassel does not make either look worse than they are. Frankly, I have no idea how you can even put forth that notion, especially since the O-line/Cassel combination has looked pretty darned good this season.

ForeverChiefs58
11-09-2010, 08:52 PM
Cassel does not make either look worse than they are. Frankly, I have no idea how you can even put forth that notion, especially since the O-line/Cassel combination has looked pretty darned good this season.

:spock:

donkhater
11-09-2010, 08:55 PM
Cassel has a lot of warts, but you can't be the worst QB in the league with a 12-4 TD/Int ratio on a 5-3 team. This team is not THAT good that it can overcome really bad QB play. There are a number of starting QBs having worse years.

ChiefsCountry
11-09-2010, 08:58 PM
Cassel has a hard time hitting a screen pass let alone a down field pass. He's a back up quarterback at best. If Pioli has any brain he'll cut Cassel at the end of the season and avoid paying the ridiculous 7.5m bonus and resign Croyle. Croyle can easily do what they are asking of Cassel but Croyle has the confidence to throw a pass beyond 10 yards.

Depending on how the rest of the season goes and what draft pick the Chiefs end up with I think theres a real chance that Baldwin would land in the Chiefs lap. I dont see the Chiefs making the playoffs. We'll probably split with the Broncos, Rivers is going to go off on us in SD, and I wouldn't be suprised if Bradford lights us up. That puts us at 10-6 at best but I wouldnt be suprised if we find a way to lose one other game for the same reason we lost to the Raiders and 9-7 isn't going to beat the Chargers. So if we can get Baldwin, start Croyle and get a backup in the 2nd/3rd rounds because by week 3 Croyle will be on the IR. Otherwise I think we need to take a QB in the first round.

Good post by the noob.

ForeverChiefs58
11-09-2010, 08:58 PM
Here is another great throw to a wide open charles. See a pattern here? He can't even get the ball to someone wide open.

http://i51.tinypic.com/20fbac9.jpg

Just Passin' By
11-09-2010, 09:02 PM
:spock:

Sack% last year was 7.9. So far this season, it's down to 4.9, which is lower than

Brady
Roethelisberger
Flacco
Rivers
Schaub


and many more.

milkman
11-09-2010, 09:08 PM
Cassel does not make either look worse than they are. Frankly, I have no idea how you can even put forth that notion, especially since the O-line/Cassel combination has looked pretty darned good this season.

Cassel made the Pats line look worse than they were until Josh McDumbasss started to use a shotgun as his base offense in New England, and as bad as the line was last year, he made them look even worse.

Cassel has made progress in this area this year, a testament to the work of Charlie Weis.

ForeverChiefs58
11-09-2010, 09:11 PM
Sack% last year was 7.9. So far this season, it's down to 4.9, which is lower than

Brady
Roethelisberger
Flacco
Rivers
Schaub


and many more.


If you throw the ball 10 yards into the stands the other team can't intercept it.

When was the last time you saw him take a hit as he completes a pass? I'll give you a hint, they have him throw as soon as he starts shitting his pants.

chiefzilla1501
11-09-2010, 09:12 PM
Sack% last year was 7.9. So far this season, it's down to 4.9, which is lower than

Brady
Roethelisberger
Flacco
Rivers
Schaub


and many more.

It's a silly argument because those guys throw a lot more and they throw deep a lot more, which requires more time in the pocket.

I like that Cassel has improved his ability to get rid of the ball. But let's not pretend that the run-heavy, screen-heavy offense that doesn't throw deep a lot doesn't have a lot to do with this.

And yes, Big Ben takes a lot of sacks. That's just the way he plays the game. As does Rodgers. But they more than compensate.

Just Passin' By
11-09-2010, 09:14 PM
Cassel made the Pats line look worse than they were until Josh McDumbasss started to use a shotgun as his base offense in New England, and as bad as the line was last year, he made them look even worse.

Cassel has made progress in this area this year, a testament to the work of Charlie Weis.

Cassel made the Pats line look worse while he got used to playing football games again. The line also was worse, because Stephen Neal was out on the PUP and his replacement was terrible. It's not a coincidence that the sack improvement began with the return of Neal to the lineup.

BigMeatballDave
11-09-2010, 09:14 PM
I hate to say this, because I never root for injuries, but I would be OK if Cassel were to get a mild concussion or something. Just to keep him out the next few games to see the difference between him a Croyle.

Just Passin' By
11-09-2010, 09:16 PM
If you throw the ball 10 yards into the stands the other team can't intercept it.

When was the last time you saw him take a hit as he completes a pass? I'll give you a hint, they have him throw as soon as he starts shitting his pants.

It happened last game. Perhaps, if you tried reasonably looking at the QB instead of just ignorantly following the herd, you might understand what's happening with that Chiefs offense. I'm not saying that Cassel's playing at a Brady/Manning/Brees level, but he's playing much better than people such as yourself are giving him credit for.

milkman
11-09-2010, 09:16 PM
Cassel made the Pats line look worse while he got used to playing football games again. The line also was worse, because Stephen Neal was out on the PUP and his replacement was terrible. It's not a coincidence that the sack improvement began with the return of Neal to the lineup.

Yeah, that one guy gave up 30+ sacks.

donkhater
11-09-2010, 09:19 PM
Cassel made the Pats line look worse than they were until Josh McDumbasss started to use a shotgun as his base offense in New England, and as bad as the line was last year, he made them look even worse.

Cassel has made progress in this area this year, a testament to the work of Charlie Weis.

Yep, muster all the effort you can to not cede any ground that Cassel has improved from last year. I'll cede he's still very mediocre, but only the close-minded on this board stubbornly refuse to give him at least some credit for this team's improvement.

Cassel was awful last year. He's less awful this year. Too many people got duped into thinking that his contract automatically made him a superstar. Yes, it was a horrid decision by Pioli, but the CP still uses that as a reason not to view Cassel objectively.

milkman
11-09-2010, 09:23 PM
Yep, muster all the effort you can to not cede any ground that Cassel has improved from last year. I'll cede he's still very mediocre, but only the close-minded on this board stubbornly refuse to give him at least some credit for this team's improvement.

Cassel was awful last year. He's less awful this year. Too many people got duped into thinking that his contract automatically made him a superstar. Yes, it was a horrid decision by Pioli, but the CP still uses that as a reason not to view Cassel objectively.

Where have I said that Cassel hasn't improved?

Did I not say in the very post that you quoted that Cassel has made progress?

The fact that I give credit to Weis for making progress doesn't negate teh fact that he has made progress.

Are you too fucking stupid to recognize that?

Don't answer that.
It's rhetorical.

Just Passin' By
11-09-2010, 09:26 PM
Yeah, that one guy gave up 30+ sacks.

That one guy was a turnstile at right guard, and was killing the line, both with the run and the pass. Neal started the final 9 games in 2008. Here's the breakdown



Sack totals in the first 8 weeks (7 games), as Neal was on PUP and then working his way back: 28

Number of times in the first 8 weeks (7 games) that Cassel was sacked more than 3 times in a game: 5


Sack totals in the final 9 games: 19

Number of times in the last 9 games that Cassel was sacked more than 3 times in a game: 1

BossChief
11-09-2010, 09:28 PM
Yep, muster all the effort you can to not cede any ground that Cassel has improved from last year. I'll cede he's still very mediocre, but only the close-minded on this board stubbornly refuse to give him at least some credit for this team's improvement.

Cassel was awful last year. He's less awful this year. Too many people got duped into thinking that his contract automatically made him a superstar. Yes, it was a horrid decision by Pioli, but the CP still uses that as a reason not to view Cassel objectively.

and some of the apologists want for him to be better sooo much that you have lowered the expectation bar so low that the guy can throw for 60 yards and some of you would be totally OK with that and be chiming the bells of "improvement"

I even made a thread showing the improvements he has made from last year, but I ran out of ammo quickly.

If you think Cassel is acceptable, you will have a hard time dealing with it WHEN we get blown out in a playoff game BECAUSE OF HIM.

BigMeatballDave
11-09-2010, 09:30 PM
Yep, muster all the effort you can to not cede any ground that Cassel has improved from last year. I'll cede he's still very mediocre, but only the close-minded on this board stubbornly refuse to give him at least some credit for this team's improvement.

Cassel was awful last year. He's less awful this year. Too many people got duped into thinking that his contract automatically made him a superstar. Yes, it was a horrid decision by Pioli, but the CP still uses that as a reason not to view Cassel objectively.He's improved. The running game certainly helps. This team has won 5 games in spite of Matt. If Croyle had started every game,(probably not likely he would last that long)they would still have 5 wins. Maybe more...

milkman
11-09-2010, 09:30 PM
That one guy was a turnstile at right guard, and was killing the line, both with the run and the pass. Neal started the final 9 games in 2008. Here's the breakdown



Sack totals in the first 8 weeks (7 games), as Neal was on PUP and then working his way back: 28

Number of times in the first 8 weeks (7 games) that Cassel was sacked more than 3 times in a game: 5


Sack totals in the final 9 games: 19

Number of times in the last 9 games that Cassel was sacked more than 3 times in a game: 1

That one guy was not responsible for every one of those sacks.

The change in the offense had something to do with the sack totals falling.

BossChief
11-09-2010, 09:31 PM
That one guy was a turnstile at right guard, and was killing the line, both with the run and the pass. Neal started the final 9 games in 2008. Here's the breakdown



Sack totals in the first 8 weeks (7 games), as Neal was on PUP and then working his way back: 28

Number of times in the first 8 weeks (7 games) that Cassel was sacked more than 3 times in a game: 5


Sack totals in the final 9 games: 19

Number of times in the last 9 games that Cassel was sacked more than 3 times in a game: 1

yeah, that will happen when you change your offense to a full blown shotgun spread

geezus

BossChief
11-09-2010, 09:32 PM
That one guy was not responsible for every one of those sacks.

The change in the offense had something to do with the sack totals falling.

Its like he didn't even watch his own teams games.

donkhater
11-09-2010, 09:32 PM
Where have I said that Cassel hasn't improved?

Did I not say in the very post that you quoted that Cassel has made progress?

The fact that I give credit to Weis for making progress doesn't negate teh fact that he has made progress.

Are you too ****ing stupid to recognize that?

Don't answer that.
It's rhetorical.

Nice.

The fact that you give the credit to Weis for his improvement and not him shows your opinion in this matter. You can't even acknowledge improvement without citing an outside reason for it.

This board calls out people for saying that the mediocre receiving core isn't to blame for Cassel's shortcomings. Then why can't his improvement be his to own as well?

ForeverChiefs58
11-09-2010, 09:32 PM
It happened last game. Perhaps, if you tried reasonably looking at the QB instead of just ignorantly following the herd, you might understand what's happening with that Chiefs offense. I'm not saying that Cassel's playing at a Brady/Manning/Brees level, but he's playing much better than people such as yourself are giving him credit for.

No he's not. I watch him very closely, rewatch the games and slow mo a lot of the plays, and watch the Gif's of such awfull passing which is ranked dead last in all of the entire NFL. That's how I came to the conclusion that he sucks. Let your eyes tell you.


If the game is on the line, you DO NOT want the ball in his hands. He tries real hard not to lose you the game, which he is pretty good at, but he will not win you the game. And since he is getting paid like a top probowl QB I expect more.

donkhater
11-09-2010, 09:33 PM
He's improved. The running game certainly helps. This team has won 5 games in spite of Matt. If Croyle had started every game,(probably not likely he would last that long)they would still have 5 wins. Maybe more...

Wow.

milkman
11-09-2010, 09:35 PM
Nice.

The fact that you give the credit to Weis for his improvement and not him shows your opinion in this matter. You can't even acknowledge improvement without citing an outside reason for it.

This board calls out people for saying that the mediocre receiving core isn't to blame for Cassel's shortcomings. Then why can't his improvement be his to own as well?

JFC dumbass.

Coaching is usually given credit when players improve.

That's what they are supposed to be there for.

Do I have to put it in writing that no one makes any improvement if they don't put in the work?

JFC again, you are a fucking moron.

donkhater
11-09-2010, 09:35 PM
No he's not. I watch him very closely, rewatch the games and slow mo a lot of the plays, and watch the Gif's of such awfull passing which is ranked dead last in all of the entire NFL. That's how I came to the conclusion that he sucks. Let your eyes tell you.


If the game is on the line, you DO NOT want the ball in his hands. He tries real hard not to lose you the game, which he is pretty good at, but he will not win you the game. And since he is getting paid like a top probowl QB I expect more.

That's part of the problem. You're actually looking for something to complain about. If you did that for 2/3 of the league's QBs you find a lot of the same faults. Try it sometime. Replay that Oakland game and watch Campbell for starters.

BossChief
11-09-2010, 09:35 PM
I will always wonder how much better we would be with Thigpen if we had kept him.

With the effectiveness of our running attack and his propensity to run if everybody is covered, I think this offense would have been quite hard to stop.

I also wonder if Weis would have been able to get Thigpen to improve...I dont think thats too far fetched given how Cassel has.

Oh well...whats done is done.

We will never know.

Just Passin' By
11-09-2010, 09:36 PM
That one guy was not responsible for every one of those sacks.

The change in the offense had something to do with the sack totals falling.

As with almost everything in football, many factors go into it. However, this notion you seem to have that an entire offense was scrapped for Cassel is wrong. The Patriots were a heavy shotgun team in 2007, long before Cassel stepped under center. In fact, that was the year that the Patriots became the first team in NFL history to take more than 50% of the offensive snaps from the shotgun.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=ys-dyingschemes090510

What happened in 2008 was that they scaled back the playbook and put in more heavy protection plays until Neal returned and Cassel got comfortable. Once Cassel began to get a better feel for things, they brought back more of the old system.

BigMeatballDave
11-09-2010, 09:36 PM
A wise man(the Talking Can) once said, "When Chiefs fans talk about QBs, Angels stab themselves in the face"

BigMeatballDave
11-09-2010, 09:37 PM
This fanbase has gone so long w/o a good QB, they dont know what one looks like.

Just Passin' By
11-09-2010, 09:37 PM
No he's not. I watch him very closely, rewatch the games and slow mo a lot of the plays, and watch the Gif's of such awfull passing which is ranked dead last in all of the entire NFL. That's how I came to the conclusion that he sucks. Let your eyes tell you.


If the game is on the line, you DO NOT want the ball in his hands. He tries real hard not to lose you the game, which he is pretty good at, but he will not win you the game. And since he is getting paid like a top probowl QB I expect more.

The fact that you can post this nonsense tells me that you're not even bothering to try being objectively analytical. I pretty much knew that already, but this seals it.

BigMeatballDave
11-09-2010, 09:38 PM
Wow.You're in awe over my astuteness. :D

donkhater
11-09-2010, 09:38 PM
JFC dumbass.

Coaching is usually given credit when players improve.

That's what they are supposed to be there for.

Do I have to put it in writing that no one makes any improvement if they don't put in the work?

JFC again, you are a ****ing moron.

I should know better than get into discussions with certain people on this board. To many are just too quick to meltdown.

BossChief
11-09-2010, 09:39 PM
That's part of the problem. You're actually looking for something to complain about. If you did that for 2/3 of the league's QBs you find a lot of the same faults. Try it sometime. Replay that Oakland game and watch Campbell for starters.

it comes back to the fact that some of us have higher standards for this team and its players because we want to see signs that we might have a shot at WINNING IT ALL at some point and not just get as far as we have in the past..

Some are totally ok with the status-quo.

IMO Jason Campbell is a pretty good illustration of Cassels ceiling.

donkhater
11-09-2010, 09:39 PM
This fanbase has gone so long w/o a good QB, they dont know what one looks like.

Do you? You just put a vote in for Croyle.

milkman
11-09-2010, 09:39 PM
As with almost everything in football, many factors go into it. However, this notion you seem to have that an entire offense was scrapped for Cassel is wrong. The Patriots were a heavy shotgun team in 2007, long before Cassel stepped under center. In fact, that was the year that the Patriots became the first team in NFL history to take more than 50% of the offensive snaps from the shotgun.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=ys-dyingschemes090510

All you have to do is look at my posts about Cassel in '09 to see that I understand that the Patriots played a lot of shotgun before McDumbass changed things.

He did increase the usage of shotgun, though, and that as much as the return of Neal, played a role in the sack numbers falling.

BigMeatballDave
11-09-2010, 09:39 PM
That's part of the problem. You're actually looking for something to complain about. If you did that for 2/3 of the league's QBs you find a lot of the same faults. Try it sometime. Replay that Oakland game and watch Campbell for starters.Stevie Wonder can see that Matt Cassel is not a good QB.

chiefzilla1501
11-09-2010, 09:40 PM
I will always wonder how much better we would be with Thigpen if we had kept him.

With the effectiveness of our running attack and his propensity to run if everybody is covered, I think this offense would have been quite hard to stop.

I also wonder if Weis would have been able to get Thigpen to improve...I dont think thats too far fetched given how Cassel has.

Oh well...whats done is done.

We will never know.

I think Colt McCoy is making a lot of coaches re-evaluate whether it's really as impossible as people believe to teach a spread monkey QB a pro style offense.

I agree--I've always wanted to see what Thigpen could do behind a good QB coach and an offense that can run the ball as well as we can. But the caveat is that we couldn't run a shotgun offense without limiting our running game. I think Thigpen was capable of playing under center, but he'd have to prove it.

milkman
11-09-2010, 09:41 PM
I should know better than get into discussions with certain people on this board. To many are just too quick to meltdown.

Stupidity as obvious as yours has that affect on me.

BigMeatballDave
11-09-2010, 09:41 PM
Do you? You just put a vote in for Croyle.:facepalm:

donkhater
11-09-2010, 09:44 PM
it comes back to the fact that some of us have higher standards for this team and its players because we want to see signs that we might have a shot at WINNING IT ALL at some point and not just get as far as we have in the past..

Some are totally ok with the status-quo.

And you actually thought that was going to happen THIS year with Cassel at QB?

Cassel is very average. I don't see a time when he'll improve to the point to win a playoff game. But as long as this coaching staff keeps putting him out there, I ain't gonna have a conniption every time he passes the ball and dissect if it was too high or behind the receiver. He's the QB. I wish we had a better one, but I'm not GM for the Chiefs.

ForeverChiefs58
11-09-2010, 09:45 PM
That's part of the problem. You're actually looking for something to complain about. If you did that for 2/3 of the league's QBs you find a lot of the same faults. Try it sometime. Replay that Oakland game and watch Campbell for starters.


Looking for something eh? Like throwing the ball 10 yards over a WR's head 5yards behind them at the line of scrimmage on 3rd and long?

Ha. Funny you should pick Campbell, cause Campbell > Cassel and if you have watched Campbell at all in his career, you know him and consistency have not been introduced and have no plans to be friends.

donkhater
11-09-2010, 09:47 PM
Looking for something eh? Like throwing the ball 10 yards over a WR's head 5yards behind them at the line of scrimmage on 3rd and long?

Ha. Funny you should pick Campbell, cause Campbell > Cassel and if you have watched Campbell at all in his career, you know him and consistency have not been introduced and have no plans to be friends.

Campbell and Cassel are the same damn player.

Just Passin' By
11-09-2010, 09:50 PM
All you have to do is look at my posts about Cassel in '09 to see that I understand that the Patriots played a lot of shotgun before McDumbass changed things.

He did increase the usage of shotgun, though, and that as much as the return of Neal, played a role in the sack numbers falling.

I'm sorry, but that's just not correct. The move to shotgun had an impact, no question, but there's a reason that sack numbers plummeting coincided precisely with Neal's return to the starting lineup.

BossChief
11-09-2010, 09:54 PM
And you actually thought that was going to happen THIS year with Cassel at QB?

Cassel is very average. I don't see a time when he'll improve to the point to win a playoff game. But as long as this coaching staff keeps putting him out there, I ain't gonna have a conniption every time he passes the ball and dissect if it was too high or behind the receiver. He's the QB. I wish we had a better one, but I'm not GM for the Chiefs.nobody is having a conniption here, we are just on a message board discussing this team and some of us are naturally more animated than others.

Campbell and Cassel are the same damn player.

No, they arent.

Campbell is what Cassel can be in a year or so if he continues on the path he is on IMO and THAT AINT GOOD ENOUGH

BossChief
11-09-2010, 09:55 PM
I'm sorry, but that's just not correct. The move to shotgun had an impact, no question, but there's a reason that sack numbers plummeting coincided precisely with Neal's return to the starting lineup.
bullshit

the sacks went down almost immediately after they moved to an almost exclusive shotgun spread in the second half of 08.

How is that even a debate?

Just Passin' By
11-09-2010, 10:00 PM
bullshit

the sacks went down almost immediately after they moved to an almost exclusive shotgun spread in the second half of 08.

How is that even a debate?

The huge jump in shotgun snaps began in the second quarter of the Jets game, when the Patriots had fallen behind 24-6 which was week 11. The sack number had begun the plummet in week 9. In fact, week 9 was the only game of the year in which Cassel was not sacked. Week 10 resulted in just one sack of Cassel.

As I've noted, I'm not saying that the increase in snaps from the shotgun didn't help. I'm simply pointing out that Neal's return was a much more important factor.

milkman
11-09-2010, 10:06 PM
The huge jump in shotgun snaps began in the second quarter of the Jets game, when the Patriots had fallen behind 24-6 which was week 11. The sack number had begun the plummet in week 9. In fact, week 9 was the only game of the year in which Cassel was not sacked. Week 10 resulted in just one sack of Cassel.

As I've noted, I'm not saying that the increase in snaps from the shotgun didn't help. I'm simply pointing out that Neal's return was a much more important factor.

The transition started in the game against Buffalo, and the game against the Jets was the week after that, in week 10.

ForeverChiefs58
11-09-2010, 10:12 PM
I watched the games with ronnie milsap, stevie wonder, and ray charles. All three turned to me at once and said:

"Holy hell Cassell sucks! Even we could see he missed the wide open receiver!"

So, saying you'd have to be blind to not see that he sucks, doesn't even apply.

A giant pair of Depends couldn't hold all the shitting of the pants he does.

milkman
11-09-2010, 10:17 PM
I watched the games with ronnie milsap, stevie wonder, and ray charles. All three turned to me at once and said:

"Holy hell Cassell sucks! Even we could see he missed the wide open receiver!"

So, saying you'd have to be blind to not see that he sucks, doesn't even apply.

A giant pair of Depends couldn't hold all the shitting of the pants he does.

But did you watch it with Anne Frank?/Channing Crowder

Just Passin' By
11-09-2010, 10:21 PM
The transition started in the game against Buffalo, and the game against the Jets was the week after that, in week 10.

The 0 sack game came in week 9. That was against the Colts. That was the Neal's first start of the season. The massive jump in the shotgun percentage came in the Jets game, which wasn't until 2 weeks later.

The bottom line is that the improvement was there and significant, just as it has been in Kansas City with the improved line this year. Going back and forth about how much attribution to give to the shotgun snaps doesn't really change that.

Cassel needs a line, just like every other QB in football. He's got a better one this year than last, and he's playing better as a result. Better receivers will help even more, assuming he returns next year.


Just as a tangental note, this discussion is extra amusing to me because several Patriots fans spent much of 2008-2009 complaining that the use of the spread/shotgun was the cause of an alleged high number of QB hits on Cassel and Brady.

BossChief
11-09-2010, 10:25 PM
The transition started in the game against Buffalo, and the game against the Jets was the week after that, in week 10.This is exactly what I remember from those NFLN replays.

The 0 sack game came in week 9. That was against the Colts. That was the Neal's first start of the season. The massive jump in the shotgun percentage came in the Jets game, which wasn't until 2 weeks later.
They changed at the halfway point of the season, not game 11.

Milkman is right in this case, like it or not.

Nobody would dare debate that a better line will improve a quarterbacks play, especially line guys like myself and Milk. But you cant try to act like a quarterback should need superior offensive linemen and receivers to be good.

Thats just crazy.

A quarterback has to help the rest of the offense be better, not the other way around.

milkman
11-09-2010, 10:25 PM
The 0 sack game came in week 9. That was against the Colts. That was the Neal's first start of the season. The massive jump in the shotgun percentage came in the Jets game, which wasn't until 2 weeks later.

The massive jump came against the Jets, but they did start to use the shotgun a bit more against the Bills than they had prior to that.

Now I didn't see that Colts game, so I can't comment on whether they actually used it more in that game or not, but I do know that the percentage of plays out of the shotgun against Buffalo was probably about 7-10% higher than it had been used in the games that I'd watched previous to that.

Just Passin' By
11-09-2010, 10:38 PM
The massive jump came against the Jets, but they did start to use the shotgun a bit more against the Bills than they had prior to that.

Now I didn't see that Colts game, so I can't comment on whether they actually used it more in that game or not, but I do know that the percentage of plays out of the shotgun against Buffalo was probably about 7-10% higher than it had been used in the games that I'd watched previous to that.

I've got no issue with this post, and I've got no problem saying that the increased number of snaps in the spread helped Cassel's game tremendously in the 2008 season. That's not surprising at all, since the team had been all about 3 and 4 wide receiver sets since 2007 (68% of the team's snaps), and cutting back on that when Cassel came aboard meant that Cassel was not just learning the game, but learning the game with an adjusted system. That's probably something Belichick and McDaniels would do differently if they had a do-over.

I'm just noting that the drop in sack numbers began with, and centered around, Neal, not the jump to the spread. If you're interested, you might care to have a look at this article, written the week after the Colts game, for some additional information, including this:

They aren't spreading the field as much, but are still in either three-receiver or four-receiver packages 55.5 percent of the time.

http://www.boston.com/sports/football/patriots/extra_points/2008/11/midpoint_positi.html


Nice chat tonight, btw, without the vitriol. Thanks for that. It's become the exception around here, rather than the rule. I've got to run, but I'll check back on this thread tomorrow, in case you want to continue with this.

MattCassel
10-06-2011, 01:37 AM
Ahh... The good ol days. Now my homie Baldwin will save me.

BoneKrusher
10-06-2011, 06:15 AM
Montana as a chief in 93 had Willie Davis, JJ Birdin and Keith Cash as his corps of WR's and he made them look way better than they actually were and took them to the AFC championship game.

Cassel has a pro bowler in Bowe.

bevischief
10-06-2011, 06:21 AM
Ahh... The good ol days. Now my homie Baldwin will save me.

shut up.

Bump
10-06-2011, 09:00 AM
I don't even know if a WR combo of Jerry Rice, Chris Carter and Calvin Johnson could help Cassel. Everybody would think they are mediocre. You put a good QB on this team and Bowe is gonna rip 1200 yards every single season and scrubs like Urban and Colbert would look good.

Valiant
10-06-2011, 09:43 AM
I don't even know if a WR combo of Jerry Rice, Chris Carter and Calvin Johnson could help Cassel. Everybody would think they are mediocre. You put a good QB on this team and Bowe is gonna rip 1200 yards every single season and scrubs like Urban and Colbert would look good.

Manning effect... well almost any elite qb has it to some degree on making those around him look way better then they are.

TEX
10-06-2011, 09:49 AM
Bla...bla...bla... When was the last time this organization had top WR's? It has literally been a few decades...Our TE was our best WR through 4 coaches. KC needs to focus on the QB problems first / again. Fix that, and the WR's will look good.

talastan
10-06-2011, 09:55 AM
An elite QB and our two first rounders in Bowe, and Baldwin will be making probowls over and over. Instead they can't get any YAC, which is their specialty as larger WRs, because of having to adjust to the ducks thrown their way by the Duke of Dink.

Dr. Facebook Fever
10-06-2011, 10:07 AM
Probably been said but other than the loss of Moeaki the recieveing corps are probably better than Cassel has had since he's been here with Bowe and Breaston. He just can't look downfield often enough or stop shitting his pants.