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View Full Version : Chiefs Lack Of Record Breaking Offense And 16-0 Team Around Him Hurting Cassel And Chiefs


BossChief
11-09-2010, 02:55 PM
I had to go there.

Fritz88
11-09-2010, 03:06 PM
Cassel needs 3 more elite WRs to get this offense going.

Pawnmower
11-09-2010, 03:08 PM
Cool another one of these threads.

I hope these threads are still happening in 2-3 years so that we can still very easily tell who the fucking idiots are around here.

Jewish Rabbi
11-09-2010, 04:01 PM
Cool another one of these threads.

I hope these threads are still happening in 2-3 years so that we can still very easily tell who the fucking idiots are around here.

I sure as fuck hope you've been run off in 2-3 years.

BossChief
11-09-2010, 04:02 PM
Cool another one of these threads.

I hope these threads are still happening in 2-3 years so that we can still very easily tell who the fucking idiots are around here.

haha

you love you some Cassel, doncha

Pawnmower
11-09-2010, 04:02 PM
I sure as **** hope you've been run off in 2-3 years.

I'm sure you do.

Pants
11-09-2010, 04:04 PM
I'm sure you do.

So you were going to wait 8 games to pass judgment on Cassel. It has been 8 games, what do you deem him to be, oh great Pawntard?

MadMax
11-09-2010, 04:05 PM
Cool another one of these threads.

I hope these threads are still happening in 2-3 years so that we can still very easily tell who the ****ing idiots are around here.




Your opinion is yours....If you don't like the criticism just don't click. We have earned that right!!! :)

MadMax
11-09-2010, 04:07 PM
Cassel needs 3 more elite WRs to get this offense going.




and 5 minutes to read the field... He will be decent some day you just wait.

BossChief
11-09-2010, 04:07 PM
last year we needed a better line, receivers and coaching.

We added
Weigman
Lilja
Asamoah
Richardson
to the line

Moeaki
DMC
to the receiver corps

Weis
to the coaching staff

how many more improvements to everything around him do we need before he magically becomes the guy we HOPE he can be?

KC Tattoo
11-09-2010, 04:08 PM
Cassel needs 3 more elite WRs to get this offense going.

Cassel needs a new brain, arm, body & soul... for him to get this offense going

Pawnmower
11-09-2010, 04:09 PM
how many more improvements to everything around him do we need before he magically becomes the guy we HOPE he can be?

This is his second season...We are coming off of the worst 3 year stretch in Chiefs history...

Did you expect us to be 5-3 right now?

KC Tattoo
11-09-2010, 04:12 PM
last year we needed a better line, receivers and coaching.

We added
Weigman
Lilja
Asamoah
Richardson
to the line

Moeaki
DMC
to the receiver corps

Weis
to the coaching staff

how many more improvements to everything around him do we need before he magically becomes the guy we HOPE he can be?

Same thing with Huard & we know how he turned out. Nothing but excuses. That's what we get with retread career back up QBs from NE Pats. :rolleyes:

KC Tattoo
11-09-2010, 04:15 PM
This is his second season...We are coming off of the worst 3 year stretch in Chiefs history...

Did you expect us to be 5-3 right now?

I expect us to go at least 10 & 6 despite Cassel. Cassel isn't the one making us a better team. It's the team around him that are doing the job. Cassel isn't going to win us a Super Bowl because we need production from the QB. Unless your wanting Rex Grossman esq QB play?

notorious
11-09-2010, 04:19 PM
Same thing with Huard & we know how he turned out. Nothing but excuses. That's what we get with retread career back up QBs from NE Pats. :rolleyes:

In Huard's defense he had to play under possibly the most retarded coach in NFL history.

BossChief
11-09-2010, 04:19 PM
This is his second season...We are coming off of the worst 3 year stretch in Chiefs history...

Did you expect us to be 5-3 right now?ITS HIS 6TH SEASON AND THE TEAM AROUND HIM IS FLOURISHING DESPITE HIM

I predicted us to be 8-8 / 10-6 this year (dependent on Cassels play as well)...I didn't expect us to be 5-3 right now, but I thought we very well could be 4-4.

I also predicted

4-12 last year
3-13 the year before (on another board though, I wasn't here yet)

Its not like Cassel is the reason we are 5-3 either.

Pawnmower
11-09-2010, 04:27 PM
ITS HIS 6TH SEASON AND THE TEAM AROUND HIM IS FLOURISHING DESPITE HIM


It is not his 6th season as a starter....

It is only his 3rd season as a starter.....And really only his second full season where he KNEW he would be the man in Camp.

If you seriously thought this team would be 5-3 or better before the season started, you deserve Homer Of The Year.

If you think Cassel should be benched to start someone else, that is your opinion. Personally I like what Pioli and Haley and ROmeo are doing with the team, so If they start Cassel I am confident he is our best option at the moment.

Even if we draft a QB in April, he likely wouldnt even be starting for a couple of years so I really don't know what you think we should be doing that is any better than this...I know some say start Croyle, but I don't see that happening.

I guess you'll just have to put up with Cassel for the next few years.

U mad?

Fritz88
11-09-2010, 04:41 PM
It is not his 6th season as a starter....

It is only his 3rd season as a starter.....And really only his second full season where he KNEW he would be the man in Camp.

If you seriously thought this team would be 5-3 or better before the season started, you deserve Homer Of The Year.

If you think Cassel should be benched to start someone else, that is your opinion. Personally I like what Pioli and Haley and ROmeo are doing with the team, so If they start Cassel I am confident he is our best option at the moment.

Even if we draft a QB in April, he likely wouldnt even be starting for a couple of years so I really don't know what you think we should be doing that is any better than this...I know some say start Croyle, but I don't see that happening.

I guess you'll just have to put up with Cassel for the next few years.

U mad?

I think we will have to learn how to put up with him. From the mic'd up segment on the Bills game, I clearly saw that Haley is BFFs with Cassel. I drew this from the following:

-How Haley was screaming to get Cassel's attention followed by a hearty chest pump.
-How Cassel screamed at Haley to challenge the bills TD. The way he screamed is not a QB calling his superior HC. Good luck doing that with Cowher or BB. They will fucking stuff your helmet up yo azz.

BossChief
11-09-2010, 05:11 PM
It is not his 6th season as a starter....

It is only his 3rd season as a starter.....And really only his second full season where he KNEW he would be the man in Camp.

If you seriously thought this team would be 5-3 or better before the season started, you deserve Homer Of The Year.

If you think Cassel should be benched to start someone else, that is your opinion. Personally I like what Pioli and Haley and ROmeo are doing with the team, so If they start Cassel I am confident he is our best option at the moment.

Even if we draft a QB in April, he likely wouldnt even be starting for a couple of years so I really don't know what you think we should be doing that is any better than this...I know some say start Croyle, but I don't see that happening.

I guess you'll just have to put up with Cassel for the next few years.

U mad?

no, but you're dumb

http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=232610 <---this was what I wrote before the season.

I also started another thread "Lets talk about Cassels improvements" and when you boil everything down, he doesnt do what the good ones do...win games when the team needs you to win them because YOU are the leader of the TEAM and they expect you to.

He is improving, but at this point I am wondering if he can ever be the guy that we need that can win playoff games and THAT is ALL That matters.

notorious
11-09-2010, 05:13 PM
Its not like Cassel is the reason we are 5-3 either.

He is a HUGE reason we are 5-3..........













..........instead of 7-1 or 8-0.

chiefzilla1501
11-09-2010, 05:26 PM
While I think Cassel is very responsible for the Houston and Indy losses and for the Buffalo game going as long as it did, I find it hard to blame him for this game.

It wasn't a perfect pass to Bowe, but it's a catch any receiver should make in that clutch situation. And in OT, nobody was open.

So for the sake of the Oakland game, yeah, I actually do think it was on the supporting cast.

BossChief
11-09-2010, 05:29 PM
While I think Cassel is very responsible for the Houston and Indy losses and for the Buffalo game going as long as it did, I find it hard to blame him for this game.

It wasn't a perfect pass to Bowe, but it's a catch any receiver should make in that clutch situation. And in OT, nobody was open.

So for the sake of the Oakland game, yeah, I actually do think it was on the supporting cast.

unless you were in Oakland, how the fuck can you say nobody was open?

tk13
11-09-2010, 05:35 PM
There are so many legitimate issues you could bring up... I always think that's one of the weakest criticisms against Cassel. He wasn't quite Brady with that offense, obviously... but who was? The guy was thrown into the fire without much preseason work and tore it up. There are people who legitimately act like he was a letdown because he didn't go 16-0. It's stupid. You could write a laundry list of amazing things that offense did. They are all over the Patriots record books. That 16-0 thing was a once in a lifetime thing, impossible to top.

chiefzilla1501
11-09-2010, 05:42 PM
unless you were in Oakland, how the **** can you say nobody was open?

http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/3835/cassel1.gif

This has been covered. Bowe was being spied on by the MLB, so that option isn't open. The only guy who appears to be opening up is Charles. But Cassel's already had the ball for 3-4 seconds. I don't think anyone would advocate him turning his body all the way over to the left side to get the ball to him.

I don't think this was a good playcall for one. But this play appears to be on the receivers.

MahiMike
11-09-2010, 05:45 PM
Cassel needs more carries.

BossChief
11-09-2010, 07:53 PM
http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/3835/cassel1.gif

This has been covered. Bowe was being spied on by the MLB, so that option isn't open. The only guy who appears to be opening up is Charles. But Cassel's already had the ball for 3-4 seconds. I don't think anyone would advocate him turning his body all the way over to the left side to get the ball to him.

I don't think this was a good playcall for one. But this play appears to be on the receivers.

Heres where we differ a bit, I guess.

Cassel pumps that receiver and gets Ricky Brown (#57) to jump as little as one false step while using his mobility to buy some time and Bowe (I am guessing that is Bowe coming across) is gone for the touchdown right behind him. You pump fake and step up into the pocket to avoid the pressure and buy a little time and find the open man, simple as that.

All 11 defenders are accounted for in that frame, nobody is in position to tackle Bowe if he catches that ball, its a game winning clutch TD pass.

You don't just throw to the guy that has no chance of making the first down, just because.

Cassel had two options out of 5 that would have gotten the first down.

It is inexcusable to make the throw that he did if he is to be even considered the type of guy we NEED in that situation if we are to have a chance at winning playoff games.

milkman
11-09-2010, 08:08 PM
You don't just throw to the guy that has no chance of making the first down, just because.

This is the primary problem I have with the play.

If he's going to throw to a covered receiver, then at least throw it to a receiver that is beyond the first down marker.

He would have been better off, though, to tuck the ball and run in that situation.

Regardless, his decision sucked.

salame
11-09-2010, 08:11 PM
we have 2 bad ass running backs
run the fucking ball on 3rd down

BossChief
11-09-2010, 08:16 PM
we have 2 bad ass running backs
run the fucking ball on 3rd down

not this game.

We were 0-6 on 3rd and 1 in the game, I really dont have a problem with passing in that situation.

Matt Cassel is the guy that should be given the ball to make a play with or burn in that situation.

Hopefully Weis is putting him in the situation where he either sinks or swims and during the offseason that is the proof he needs to get us to draft someone to at least compete with Matt next year.

Brianfo
11-09-2010, 08:37 PM
This is his second season...We are coming off of the worst 3 year stretch in Chiefs history...

Did you expect us to be 5-3 right now?

This!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

milkman
11-09-2010, 08:40 PM
Thanks for your dumbassery Brianfo.

chiefzilla1501
11-09-2010, 08:43 PM
Heres where we differ a bit, I guess.

Cassel pumps that receiver and gets Ricky Brown (#57) to jump as little as one false step while using his mobility to buy some time and Bowe (I am guessing that is Bowe coming across) is gone for the touchdown right behind him. You pump fake and step up into the pocket to avoid the pressure and buy a little time and find the open man, simple as that.

All 11 defenders are accounted for in that frame, nobody is in position to tackle Bowe if he catches that ball, its a game winning clutch TD pass.

You don't just throw to the guy that has no chance of making the first down, just because.

Cassel had two options out of 5 that would have gotten the first down.

It is inexcusable to make the throw that he did if he is to be even considered the type of guy we NEED in that situation if we are to have a chance at winning playoff games.

One thing you have to consider is that you have a defender on Cassel's right that's sealing that outside right. But you'll also see on the left that there's a LB that's starting pursuit into the pocket and there isn't anyone who will be able to block him. If Cassel pump fakes, turns in a different direction, or waits even 1 more second, I believe he is going to get hit. And I don't agree with milkman that he can tuck it in and run. There is nowhere for him to go.

I don't think it's a bad decision to throw to Pope, especially given that the alternatives aren't better. Wimbley is a LB and he's in recovery mode. He actually makes a great play on the ball, but he had his back turned to the QB--that's a play a LB usually isn't going to make. Frankly, I think a lot of that is on Pope. He doesn't have balance when he's catching it--he shouldn't let Wimbley take that ball away from him. More importantly, look at Wimbley's positioning. Pope has GOT TO come to the ball. He cuts in front of Wimbley and he has a huge running lane to the left to get those 2 extra yards. Or, he draws a penalty--with Wimbley not once looking back at the QB, that's definitely in play.

I know Pope isn't a natural receiver. But I believe that's a more than makeable play if he plays it right.

Brianfo
11-09-2010, 08:44 PM
I expect us to go at least 10 & 6 despite Cassel. Cassel isn't the one making us a better team. It's the team around him that are doing the job. Cassel isn't going to win us a Super Bowl because we need production from the QB. Unless your wanting Rex Grossman esq QB play?

You expected10-6 this year. Good luck in purgatory. You r a douche!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

cdcox
11-09-2010, 08:46 PM
http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/3835/cassel1.gif

This has been covered. Bowe was being spied on by the MLB, so that option isn't open. The only guy who appears to be opening up is Charles. But Cassel's already had the ball for 3-4 seconds. I don't think anyone would advocate him turning his body all the way over to the left side to get the ball to him.

I don't think this was a good playcall for one. But this play appears to be on the receivers.

Something doesn't add up. If he's had the ball 3-4 seconds, how are all the receivers within 5 yards of the LOS?

FAX
11-09-2010, 08:47 PM
One thing you have to consider is that you have a defender on Cassel's right that's sealing that outside right. But you'll also see on the left that there's a LB that's starting pursuit into the pocket and there isn't anyone who will be able to block him. If Cassel pump fakes, turns in a different direction, or waits even 1 more second, I believe he is going to get hit. And I don't agree with milkman that he can tuck it in and run. There is nowhere for him to go.

I don't think it's a bad decision to throw to Pope, especially given that the alternatives aren't better. Wimbley is a LB and he's in recovery mode. He actually makes a great play on the ball, but he had his back turned to the QB--that's a play a LB usually isn't going to make. Frankly, I think a lot of that is on Pope. He doesn't have balance when he's catching it--he shouldn't let Wimbley take that ball away from him. More importantly, look at Wimbley's positioning. Pope has GOT TO come to the ball. He cuts in front of Wimbley and he has a huge running lane to the left to get those 2 extra yards. Or, he draws a penalty--with Wimbley not once looking back at the QB, that's definitely in play.

I know Pope isn't a natural receiver. But I believe that's a more than makeable play if he plays it right.

ROFL

Or, he could just throw the ball to Bowe.

FAX

FAX
11-09-2010, 08:48 PM
Something doesn't add up. If he's had the ball 3-4 seconds, how are all the receivers within 5 yards of the LOS?

Yeah ... I was wondering the same thing ... maybe 2 seconds ... certainly not 4.

Based on that still frame, I'm kinda wondering why he can't loft the ball over the linebacker, lead Bowe a tad, and just get a touchdown?

FAX

FAX
11-09-2010, 08:49 PM
Or that guy standing on the 2.

FAX

BossChief
11-09-2010, 08:49 PM
I don't think it's a bad decision to throw to Pope,

:facepalm: you are better than this.

Quit being an apologist. That post was dumb...very dumb IMO.

If he fucking steps up two steps, he has another 2 seconds to find the open man. Simple as that.

Quit being ok with below average, crappy decisions.

We deserve better

Brianfo
11-09-2010, 08:50 PM
Thanks for your dumbassery Brianfo.

Oh really!! How does my cock taste??????

chiefzilla1501
11-09-2010, 08:51 PM
ROFL

Or, he could just throw the ball to Bowe.

FAX

Who is being spied by the MLB. The MLB drifts away from Bowe because Cassel isn't looking at him. Bowe isn't open on this play.

BossChief
11-09-2010, 08:53 PM
ROFL

Or, he could just throw the ball to Bowe.

FAX

exactly

be a fucking world beating mutherfucker and step up to the pocket (using your blockers) and use the mechanics Weis is trying to teach you to deliver a pass to Bowe for a touchdown and enjoy the glory.

...or throw it to Pope for no gain, at best, and get called the village idiot.

BossChief
11-09-2010, 08:57 PM
Who is being spied by the MLB. The MLB drifts away from Bowe because Cassel isn't looking at him. Bowe isn't open on this play.

:spock:

he has a step on his man and a most NFL quarterbacks should be able to make that throw.

If this was a playoff game, he MUST make that play for us to have a chance.

Baconeater
11-09-2010, 09:00 PM
So you were going to wait 8 games to pass judgment on Cassel. It has been 8 games, what do you deem him to be, oh great Pawntard?
I couldn't help but notice that he ducked this question.

chiefzilla1501
11-09-2010, 09:02 PM
:spock:

he has a step on his man and a most NFL quarterbacks should be able to make that throw.

If this was a playoff game, he MUST make that play for us to have a chance.

#1 - He has a step because the MLB is spying the QB. If Cassel turns to Bowe, the MLB turns and the window closes

#2 - There is a Safety deep. Given that Bowe is the only guy going deep, I can guaran-fucking-tee you that he's ready to attack that ball.

#3 - I think this was very possibly a designed play. Albert tries to cut his blocker down, which pretty clearly tells you that his only job is to stop his blocker just enough for Cassel to get a quick release.

#4 - This is a more than makeable play by Pope if he uses his body correctly, given the way Wimbley is positioned to defend it.


I'm not being an apologist. I think people are trying really hard to convince themselves that Bowe was a lot more open than he was. I do think Cassel may have some space to step up. But again, that guy Albert pushed forward, that guy is now starting to move into the backfield. If Cassel moves anywhere in that pocket, that guy is going to get into the pocket and nobody is there to block him.

Psyko Tek
11-09-2010, 09:03 PM
Cool another one of these threads.

I hope these threads are still happening in 2-3 years so that we can still very easily tell who the fucking idiots are around here.

IF it takes 2-3 years.....

milkman
11-09-2010, 09:12 PM
Oh really!! How does my cock taste??????

Are you having a homosexual fantasy?

chiefzilla1501
11-09-2010, 09:17 PM
Something doesn't add up. If he's had the ball 3-4 seconds, how are all the receivers within 5 yards of the LOS?

Closer to 3 than it is to 4. Bowe is running a slant, Chambers is getting bumped heavily by his man, Moeaki is running a route from the backfield as is Charles.

BossChief
11-09-2010, 09:19 PM
#1 - He has a step because the MLB is spying the QB. If Cassel turns to Bowe, the MLB turns and the window closes

#2 - There is a Safety deep. Given that Bowe is the only guy going deep, I can guaran-fucking-tee you that he's ready to attack that ball.

#3 - I think this was very possibly a designed play. Albert tries to cut his blocker down, which pretty clearly tells you that his only job is to stop his blocker just enough for Cassel to get a quick release.

#4 - This is a more than makeable play by Pope if he uses his body correctly, given the way Wimbley is positioned to defend it.


I'm not being an apologist. I think people are trying really hard to convince themselves that Bowe was a lot more open than he was. I do think Cassel may have some space to step up. But again, that guy Albert pushed forward, that guy is now starting to move into the backfield. If Cassel moves anywhere in that pocket, that guy is going to get into the pocket and nobody is there to block him.

this whole post is dumb and is through the eyes of an obvious apologist. Sorry to put it that way man, but hopefully it opens your eyes a bit.

He has a step because he is separated from the defender that is covering him. the linebacker has nothing to do with this.

There is NO DEEP SAFETY... all 11 defenders are accounted for in that frame. Unless Im wrong. Do you have another frame from that play showing this safety?

A good pass to Bowe doesn't even give that linebacker a chance at getting to the ball. NO CHANCE. a Pump fake eats that defender alive and if he does so and then steps up into the pocket, Bowe is celebrating his 8th touchdown of the year. A game winning one at that.

chiefzilla1501
11-09-2010, 09:29 PM
this whole post is dumb and is through the eyes of an obvious apologist. Sorry to put it that way man, but hopefully it opens your eyes a bit.

He has a step because he is separated from the defender that is covering him. the linebacker has nothing to do with this.

There is NO DEEP SAFETY... all 11 defenders are accounted for in that frame. Unless Im wrong. Do you have another frame from that play showing this safety?

A good pass to Bowe doesn't even give that linebacker a chance at getting to the ball. NO CHANCE. a Pump fake eats that defender alive and if he does so and then steps up into the pocket, Bowe is celebrating his 8th touchdown of the year. A game winning one at that.

Only 10 are accounted for in that frame. There is one deep Safety. He disappears in the frame. He shows up sprinting late to the play after Wimbley makes his tackle.

You know me better than to call me a Cassel apologist. I'm breaking the play down as I see it, just as I said the INT was Cassel's fault when a lot of people said it was Bowe's. You have no idea where that Safety is. The short dump to Bowe is not open because of the LB spying the play. And given that Albert cuts his guy instead of legitimately blocking him, that indicates that this is supposed to be a quick strike play and the play is designed for Cassel to get the ball out quickly. The other thing you don't see is that the guy Albert shoved down is on his feet and starting to move to the pocket unblocked. Don't let that still frame's pocket deceive you.

If you watch his eyes and the timing of the pump fake, I believe that play is designed for Moeaki but that play is definitely not there. He pumps and throws it to Pope, who is the next best option, given that this was likely a quick strike play. I think Cassel could have thrown the ball more to Pope's outside shoulder. I also don't like the way Pope played the ball.

I've been watching this video over and over and over again as I post. It tells an entirely different story than the still frame.

BossChief
11-09-2010, 09:47 PM
Only 10 are accounted for in that frame. There is one deep Safety. He disappears in the frame. He shows up sprinting late to the play after Wimbley makes his tackle.

You know me better than to call me a Cassel apologist. I'm breaking the play down as I see it, just as I said the INT was Cassel's fault when a lot of people said it was Bowe's. You have no idea where that Safety is. The short dump to Bowe is not open because of the LB spying the play. And given that Albert cuts his guy instead of legitimately blocking him, that indicates that this is supposed to be a quick strike play and the play is designed for Cassel to get the ball out quickly. The other thing you don't see is that the guy Albert shoved down is on his feet and starting to move to the pocket unblocked. Don't let that still frame's pocket deceive you.

If you watch his eyes and the timing of the pump fake, I believe that play is designed for Moeaki but that play is definitely not there. He pumps and throws it to Pope, who is the next best option, given that this was likely a quick strike play. I think Cassel could have thrown the ball more to Pope's outside shoulder. I also don't like the way Pope played the ball.

I've been watching this video over and over and over again as I post. It tells an entirely different story than the still frame.

RU sure?

I count 10 defenders on their feet and one more getting up after getting chopped by Albert.

If there is a deep safety, that would make it 12 defenders on the field unless I am counting something wrong or something...

The pass to Pope was a horrible decision. Any way someone tries to justify it.

Champ
11-09-2010, 09:55 PM
Moeaki
DMC
to the receiver corps


:facepalm: Just stop right there...

Do not call Dexter Mc"147 yards from scrimmage"Cluster 'DMC'. That nickname has already been taken by a player on the Raiders, and he deserves the nickname because he actually, you know, produces on the field.

chiefzilla1501
11-09-2010, 09:57 PM
RU sure?

I count 10 defenders on their feet and one more getting up after getting chopped by Albert.

If there is a deep safety, that would make it 12 defenders on the field unless I am counting something wrong or something...

The pass to Pope was a horrible decision. Any way someone tries to justify it.

The guy on the ground is Albert. Albert chopped his defender (which goes back to the point that pass rusher is now going after the QB and nobody can possibly block him).

#1 - no idea where that Safety is, but do you not doubt that he was focused intently on Bowe?
#2 - Albert's cut block shows that this is supposed to be a quick pass
It's not a bad decision. Blame the playcall maybe. Maybe argue that the throw could have been more to the outside (although, I think the inside shoulder is just as makeable). But bad decision? I disagree.

BossChief
11-09-2010, 10:11 PM
:facepalm: Just stop right there...

Do not call Dexter Mc"147 yards from scrimmage"Cluster 'DMC'. That nickname has already been taken by a player on the Raiders, and he deserves the nickname because he actually, you know, produces on the field.ummm Im not surprised that a Faider fan can't count or know how to properly read a stat sheet.

DMC has 147 receiving and 60 rushing yards...that would make it 207 yards from scrimmage, dumb shit.

Add to that his 361 yards in returns and you have 568 total yards in 6 games in the NFL...not bad. 2 touchdowns so far as well as one rookie of the week award.

Its not like he was drafted 4th overall and had 785 total yards from scrimmage as a rookie (4 touchdowns) and followed that up 602 yards from scrimmage in his second year (ROFL 1 touchdown)...LOL 5 touchdowns in his first two years combined and you think anybody gives two shits about that guy? 4th overall in the draft

Oh yeah, take into account his 10 career fumbles as well as his 7 missed games to injury in 2 years to find out how close to a bust that POS was before he is starting to look OK this year. I just hope he plays well enough to try and bend Al Davis over a barrel after the year and try to demand more money so your team can look like the joke it always looks like when contracts are demanded or they get that glimmer in their eye for a certain player.

ROFL

go rob a liquor store so you can afford your internet so we can continue this conversation later

BossChief
11-09-2010, 10:21 PM
The guy on the ground is Albert. Albert chopped his defender (which goes back to the point that pass rusher is now going after the QB and nobody can possibly block him).

#1 - no idea where that Safety is, but do you not doubt that he was focused intently on Bowe?
#2 - Albert's cut block shows that this is supposed to be a quick pass
It's not a bad decision. Blame the playcall maybe. Maybe argue that the throw could have been more to the outside (although, I think the inside shoulder is just as makeable). But bad decision? I disagree.

I dont see how that is possible. I see a black jersey though the two OL that are doubling down on a defender and that black jersey (the 11th defender at the top of the tackle box) above the double in that frame is surely the defender you are talking about that was chopped. It cant be ANYONE else.

Otherwise, who is the defender coming free after being chopped in this frame that evidently got chopped and got up to his feet and is coming unblocked to get big bad Cassel, that made a good decision to make a throw to a receiver 2+ yards behind the first down marker and is covered... all within 3 seconds?

That just doesn't make any sense.

There is NOBODY coming from the top of that frame towards Cassel so the only one that can even be possible is the guy I'm talking about.

there was NO DEEP SAFETY

kysirsoze
11-09-2010, 10:41 PM
This is his second season...We are coming off of the worst 3 year stretch in Chiefs history...

Did you expect us to be 5-3 right now?

I didn't blame him for us going 4-12 and I don't credit him with 5-3. I judge based on his actual play. That's how I know he sucks.

chiefzilla1501
11-09-2010, 11:10 PM
I dont see how that is possible. I see a black jersey though the two OL that are doubling down on a defender and that black jersey (the 11th defender at the top of the tackle box) above the double in that frame is surely the defender you are talking about that was chopped. It cant be ANYONE else.

Otherwise, who is the defender coming free after being chopped in this frame that evidently got chopped and got up to his feet and is coming unblocked to get big bad Cassel, that made a good decision to make a throw to a receiver 2+ yards behind the first down marker and is covered... all within 3 seconds?

That just doesn't make any sense.

There is NOBODY coming from the top of that frame towards Cassel so the only one that can even be possible is the guy I'm talking about.

there was NO DEEP SAFETY

Are you seriously going to argue about this? Didn't I mention I've been watching this clip about 1000 times?

BAM! Deep Safety
http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/4564/screen1nx.jpg

10 Defenders
http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/8199/screen2rb.jpg

Albert on the ground. Waters and Wiegmann drive blocking the guy to their right. This guy is ready to sprint to the backfield. That's a little over 5 yards. That guy can get there in one second.
http://img31.imageshack.us/img31/9554/screen4vf.jpg

BossChief
11-09-2010, 11:28 PM
http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/3835/cassel1.gif


This frame must be a little deceiving then. Sometimes a picture can seem to be something it isnt.

It sure looks like there is a raider defender on the ground next to Albert in this frame.

Id still rather him try to get that ball to Bowe over forcing the ball to a guy two years short of the first down marker...or buy another second by stepping up and hitting Charles in the flat.

If Charles in on a route, there shouldnt be a single down where he isnt looked at IMO.

Barret
11-10-2010, 03:44 AM
Ok now looking at more still frames I see a couple of issues.

1: Why is this pass not going to at least the damn 1st down marker??

Who is the very top receiver in this play? Meaning I see Bowe in the middle but who is at the top of the frame? since this leads me to......

2: Why didnt that person run the route more horizontal to the 1st down marker. If he did it looks like he had his man beat on the inside but he took a slant the same way Bowe is going.

Then you can stare Bowe down and keep the defenders on him. This will clear out the area AT THE 1ST DOWN MARKER and you can extend the drive.

Too many passes trying to force the wide receiver (or whomever) to make a play instead of the QB. Yards after catch is being thought of too much. Why can't the QB make the play to a wide receiver who runs up 6 yards and does a quick hook and gets the damn first down.

beach tribe
11-10-2010, 05:14 AM
ROFL

Or, he could just throw the ball to Bowe.

FAX
Seriously. He has inside position.
If he throws that ball before Bowe makes his break inside, it's indefensible.

Chiefless
11-10-2010, 08:26 AM
Seriously. He has inside position.
If he throws that ball before Bowe makes his break inside, it's indefensible.

That DOES appear to be the throw. The passing lane is 2 yards behind Bowe in that pic. looks like Chambers is open if Cassel throws to his back sholder. If Cassel moves to his left he MIGHT have time to out run the LB coming in his face and get an angle on Charles. My problem is the design of the play. All the receivers are within 5 yards of the LOS and all of the D is bunched there. Cassel has shoe-box sized windows and has to throw through a crowd on all of his targets.

This play might have been defeated much earlier in the game (and season) by not making plays downfield on 2nd and 3rd and short. Until they do Defenses will continue to stack the line to take away the running game and short passing game. I know Cassel's play leaves a lot to be desired but not mixing the medium to long passing game with any consistency is not really helping matters either.

Long story short: Cassel sucks, receivers suck, play-calling sucks, pass-protection sucks less.

vailpass
11-10-2010, 08:28 AM
This is his second season...We are coming off of the worst 3 year stretch in Chiefs history...

Did you expect us to be 5-3 right now?

With this schedule and a QB that was even average your record would be better. Cassell is a bottom 1/3 NFL QB.
As a rival fan I hope Cassell is wearing red and gold for the nest 10 years.

jd1020
11-10-2010, 09:07 AM
The failure in play calling directly reflects to the Chiefs lack of confidence in Cassel to make the throw and his decision making. This loss wouldnt have hurt as bad if Cassel tried to thread a pass through to Bowe and it was intercepted. Atleast that throw would have stood a chance in making the first down.

Hopefully Weis opens Pioli's eyes.

cdcox
11-10-2010, 09:10 AM
.
As a rival fan I hope Cassell is wearing red and gold for the nest 10 years.

That is about all you need to know about Cassel right there.

salame
11-10-2010, 10:58 AM
guys
we lost
we should be used to it by now
k?

ForeverChiefs58
11-10-2010, 11:07 AM
With this schedule and a QB that was even average your record would be better. Cassell is a bottom 1/3 NFL QB.
As a rival fan I hope Cassell is wearing red and gold for the nest 10 years.

Yeah I have a good friend who is a 49er fan and he calls our QB an Alex Smith clone. Btw, that is not a compliment.

milkman
11-10-2010, 07:04 PM
Yeah I have a good friend who is a 49er fan and he calls our QB an Alex Smith clone. Btw, that is not a compliment.

Well thanks for clarifying.
We'd have never known otherwise.

Actually though, your friend is wrong.
An Alex Smith Clone would be an improvement for us.

chiefzilla1501
11-10-2010, 07:06 PM
Seriously. He has inside position.
If he throws that ball before Bowe makes his break inside, it's indefensible.

Not that cut and dry. If you look at the clip, there is no passing window so Cassel's only option is to lob it in to Bowe and there is a MLB that is watching Cassel's eyes ready to take away the pass to Bowe. Cassel may have had a chance to throw it over the top of that LB, but I can guarantee you that deep Safety was completely fixed on Bowe.

And again, given the way this play was blocked, it was a quick pass play.

This play doesn't look like it was on Cassel. It's on the receivers and Weis.

KCBOSS1
11-10-2010, 07:19 PM
The fact that we are still having this conversation about Cassel is telling enough. I agree with the thread starter. We gotta go after a starter and move Cassel to be the (overpaid) 3rd string quarterback, clipboard holder than he was meant to be in the NFL.

chiefzilla1501
11-10-2010, 07:24 PM
The fact that we are still having this conversation about Cassel is telling enough. I agree with the thread starter. We gotta go after a starter and move Cassel to be the (overpaid) 3rd string quarterback, clipboard holder than he was meant to be in the NFL.

I don't think Cassel is any kind of an answer. But I think if you're going to criticize him, he should be criticized for something he actually did wrong. And this thread shows that some people are going to find wrong in Cassel, even when he doesn't do anything wrong.

He's made a lot of mistakes. The Overtime play and the end of regulation play are not among them.

KCBOSS1
11-10-2010, 07:46 PM
I don't think Cassel is any kind of an answer. But I think if you're going to criticize him, he should be criticized for something he actually did wrong. And this thread shows that some people are going to find wrong in Cassel, even when he doesn't do anything wrong.

He's made a lot of mistakes. The Overtime play and the end of regulation play are not among them.

I agree with that. I haven't been a Cassel supporter, but he has played better at some points than I thought he was capable. I've really been trying to be as complimentary as I know how. But my best compliment has been, "He wasn't completely terrible today".

I was so frustrated when I'd heard that they gave him a long, huge contract during his first training camp. I felt like we were going to be stuck with a contract with someone that wasn't proven. We had him for the tryout year. Even to watch him for half of a year before giving him a contract would have been good. Baaaahhhh. That which we feared has come upon us. Soapbox... I just can't get off of it.

jd1020
11-10-2010, 07:55 PM
He's made a lot of mistakes. The Overtime play and the end of regulation play are not among them.

Huh? Throwing to someone thats on the line of scrimmage, blanketed by a defender, when you need 3 yards is a HUGE mistake. Cassel was looking directly at Bowe when he made his cut inside. There was plenty of room to rifle one in there and Bowe's momentum alone would have made the first down if only by inches. But he decided it best to check it down to someone with no chance of making a first down.

milkman
11-10-2010, 07:57 PM
I agree with that. I haven't been a Cassel supporter, but he has played better at some points than I thought he was capable. I've really been trying to be as complimentary as I know how. But my best compliment has been, "He wasn't completely terrible today".

I was so frustrated when I'd heard that they gave him a long, huge contract during his first training camp. I felt like we were going to be stuck with a contract with someone that wasn't proven. We had him for the tryout year. Even to watch him for half of a year before giving him a contract would have been good. Baaaahhhh. That which we feared has come upon us. Soapbox... I just can't get off of it.

He wasn't completely terrible on Sunday, and the fact is, he made enough plays in regulation for the Chiefs to win that game, but the team around him let him down.

chiefzilla1501
11-10-2010, 08:13 PM
Huh? Throwing to someone thats on the line of scrimmage, blanketed by a defender, when you need 3 yards is a HUGE mistake. Cassel was looking directly at Bowe when he made his cut inside. There was plenty of room to rifle one in there and Bowe's momentum alone would have made the first down if only by inches. But he decided it best to check it down to someone with no chance of making a first down..

Branden Albert cut his man down. That means that the play is supposed to be a quick shot. Cassel's first read is Moeaki. Covered. Cassel's second read is Pope and I believe Pope can get a first down if he plays the ball right. The whole bullshit about Bowe is complete conjecture. You have a LB that is spying him to take away the short throw and a deep Safety (not on screen) to take away the deep pass.

Cassel's options were to throw it to a blanketed receiver, take a sack, or throw it to a mildly open receiver before the chains and see if he can position for a first down after the catch. I still believe a more skilled receiver makes that catch and good chance he gets a first down.

BossChief
11-10-2010, 08:34 PM
I don't think Cassel is any kind of an answer. But I think if you're going to criticize him, he should be criticized for something he actually did wrong. And this thread shows that some people are going to find wrong in Cassel, even when he doesn't do anything wrong.

He's made a lot of mistakes. The Overtime play and the end of regulation play are not among them.
I have been overly complimentary of Cassel when he has deserved it. I have said over and over that he made enough plays to be labeled as the hero of the game if Bowe catches that first down pass.

The plays you are trying to paint as good decisions arent examples I am going to give him an ounce of credit for.

I dont even really care that there's a safety back there at all. YOU HAVE TO TRY TO COMPLETE A PASS THAT RESULTS IN A FIRST DOWN, NOT TWO YARDS SHORT.

A good NFL quarterback (something we hope he can be, one day) gets us a first down in that scenario, or at least tries to do so.

The trouble is that play is truly a microcosm of his time here. We need 4 yards? he is totally ok with taking the 2 yard dumpoff with no chance at YAC to pick up the first down. We need 10 yards on third down? He throws a pass for 7 yards at the feet of a receiver.

So far, that is the biggest thing that pisses some of us off.

When we NEED him, he isn't there for us.
He wasn't completely terrible on Sunday, and the fact is, he made enough plays in regulation for the Chiefs to win that game, but the team around him let him down.

Agreed.

The passes to Bowe should have been enough to get us the win.

Hopefully, he continues to show progress...in another year, he may even be a competent game manager.

chiefzilla1501
11-10-2010, 08:41 PM
I have been overly complimentary of Cassel when he has deserved it. I have said over and over that he made enough plays to be labeled as the hero of the game if Bowe catches that first down pass.

The plays you are trying to paint as good decisions arent examples I am going to give him an ounce of credit for.

I dont even really care that there's a safety back there at all. YOU HAVE TO TRY TO COMPLETE A PASS THAT RESULTS IN A FIRST DOWN, NOT TWO YARDS SHORT.

A good NFL quarterback (something we hope he can be, one day) gets us a first down in that scenario, or at least tries to do so.

The trouble is that play is truly a microcosm of his time here. We need 4 yards? he is totally ok with taking the 2 yard dumpoff with no chance at YAC to pick up the first down. We need 10 yards on third down? He throws a pass for 7 yards at the feet of a receiver.

So far, that is the biggest thing that pisses some of us off.

When we NEED him, he isn't there for us.


Agreed.

The passes to Bowe should have been enough to get us the win.

Hopefully, he continues to show progress...in another year, he may even be a competent game manager.

If you want to argue the point that the playcall was dialed up because Weis had no trust in Cassel's arm to throw it deep, understandable. But the flaw is in the playcall, not in Cassel's decision. I'm not giving credit for the decision. I'm just saying that the play looks like it was designed to be out of his hands quickly, and that means that he only really had two reads: Moeaki and Pope.

I still believe that if Pope comes to the ball, there is a shitload of real estate on his left to get a first down. I think he was either expecting it to go to his outside shoulder or he just reacted poorly to it. When I look at how out of position Wimbley is, my reaction is really "fuck, Pope found the one way to catch that ball that would allow Wimbley to make a good play."

milkman
11-10-2010, 08:42 PM
A good NFL quarterback (something we hope he can be, one day) gets us a first down in that scenario, or at least tries to do so.

Hopefully, he continues to show progress...in another year, he may even be a competent game manager.

Frankly, I don't think he's ever going to be much more than he is at this point.

I find myself hoping against all hope that Pioli releases him after the season.

BossChief
11-10-2010, 09:08 PM
Frankly, I don't think he's ever going to be much more than he is at this point.

I find myself hoping against all hope that Pioli releases him after the season.

I dont think we will release him after we made such a significant investment in him.

I just hope that we draft him some competition.

and stop calling me Frankly.

milkman
11-10-2010, 09:11 PM
I dont think we will release him after we made such a significant investment in him.

I just hope that we draft him some competition.

and stop calling me Frankly.

Okay Shirley.

And that is why I say "hoping against all hope".

Saccopoo
11-11-2010, 01:46 AM
Monkeys throw poop...seriously.

This thread having more than one page and the original poster still have pos rep is a tragedy.

Count Zarth
11-11-2010, 02:24 AM
Pope can get a first down if he plays the ball right.

We're seriously blaming that clusterfuck of a third-down choke job on LEONARD POPE NOW?

http://uranus.ckt.net/%7Egochiefs/billies/new/ppop.gif

Cassel threw that ball in almost an uncatchable spot considering Pope's momentum and the position of the defender. It was like the intended receiver was Kamerion Wimbley's ASSHOLE.

This play had ZERO chance to get a first down as soon as Cassel released the ball.

Pope had no chance to "play the ball." It's not a 30-yard lob that turns into a jump ball. He has half a second to react to a throw that is zipped down the line and thrown in a poor spot.

Fritz88
11-11-2010, 04:41 AM
80
Posted via Mobile Device

chiefzilla1501
11-11-2010, 06:26 AM
We're seriously blaming that cluster**** of a third-down choke job on LEONARD POPE NOW?

http://uranus.ckt.net/%7Egochiefs/billies/new/ppop.gif

Cassel threw that ball in almost an uncatchable spot considering Pope's momentum and the position of the defender. It was like the intended receiver was Kamerion Wimbley's ASSHOLE.

This play had ZERO chance to get a first down as soon as Cassel released the ball.

Pope had no chance to "play the ball." It's not a 30-yard lob that turns into a jump ball. He has half a second to react to a throw that is zipped down the line and thrown in a poor spot.

Bullshit. Wimbley was playing with his back to the QB. He never once turned his head. If Pope comes toward the ball, he either draws an interference call or he forces Wimbley to change his momentum and cut in a totally different direction.

Instead, he looks like he tries to make a safe catch. Like he's waiting for the ball to come to him so he can cradle it in.

FAX
11-11-2010, 06:32 AM
Pope come back to the ball?

I'm afraid you're asking Pope to violate the laws of physics, Mr. chiefzilla1501. Although that's not a terrible idea, since superpositional entanglement may be the only way to get our passing game on track. But, I'm not sure Pope can do what you suggest without breaking his spine.

FAX

Count Zarth
11-11-2010, 06:40 AM
If Pope comes toward the ball, he either draws an interference call or he forces Wimbley to change his momentum and cut in a totally different direction.

Instead, he looks like he tries to make a safe catch. Like he's waiting for the ball to come to him so he can cradle it in.

Pope does not have time to make that kind of adjustment on the ball.

This is real time:

http://i54.tinypic.com/245y2yu.jpg

He's not waiting on the ball. Hell, that thing was fired in there so fast he barely caught it - oh wait, he didn't.

chiefzilla1501
11-11-2010, 07:28 AM
Pope does not have time to make that kind of adjustment on the ball.

This is real time:

http://i54.tinypic.com/245y2yu.jpg

He's not waiting on the ball. Hell, that thing was fired in there so fast he barely caught it - oh wait, he didn't.

Bullshit he doesn't have time. He's not running at this point (because he's close to the sideline). He's drifting. And Cassel is staring in that direction for a long time and even pump fakes. He knows the ball is coming to him. Because that clip rapidly resets it makes it look faster than it is. The ball is fired, but it's not fired to the point that the receiver is rendered helpless.

If he knows it's coming to him, he needs to position himself to make the right play. He is turned to the ball, which means that he should have the recognition to either keep a strong base when catching the ball or to move forward and draw contact. Instead, he falls on the ball to make the "safe catch." I think it's a lot to ask our receivers to try and make a catch and run past the chains, particularly when you're not exactly past the chains. But let's not let our receivers off the hook. Pope should have some idea of where he is on the field just as Cassel should. If Pope knows he's short of the chains, he should be smart enough to catch the ball in a way that lets him get yards after the catch instead of making the safe catch.

Count Zarth
11-11-2010, 07:33 AM
You're nuts. He has no time. None.

That play was bang bang.

Chiefs=Good
11-11-2010, 07:33 AM
Pope does not have time to make that kind of adjustment on the ball.

This is real time:

http://i54.tinypic.com/245y2yu.jpg

He's not waiting on the ball. Hell, that thing was fired in there so fast he barely caught it - oh wait, he didn't.

Is it possible to get a GIF of the complete route that Pope Runs??

Its hard to see from the limited angle as im not sure wat route Pope was running. But Cassell Should have led pope more so that he had a chance to get the 1st down marker. If Pope was infact running a flat route from the TE postion or the slot then that is an utter abortion of a throw.

if it was a hitch type route then he should have led him in so he could cut to the middle of the field.

But what concerns me most is that Cassell is even attempting to make that throw, where its clearly going to be hard to pick up the 1st down. Knowing Cassell im sure there was someone else running a deeper route, who was likely open... :shake:

Chiefs=Good
11-11-2010, 07:34 AM
You're nuts. He has no time. None.

That play was bang bang.

Can you make one of the full play? or have you already?

Count Zarth
11-11-2010, 07:35 AM
GIF'D UP, people. Stuff is always in that thread.

Stop overanalyzing this shit. Cassel threw to a receiver who was short of the first down marker. He's a fucking idjit. GTFO.

Chiefs=Good
11-11-2010, 07:40 AM
GIF'D UP, people. Stuff is always in that thread.

Stop overanalyzing this shit. Cassel threw to a receiver who was short of the first down marker. He's a ****ing idjit. GTFO.

LMAO you fucking brought it up! :) Well looking at the Gif in gif'd up it was a fucking horrible choice by Cassell and a disgusting throw. Having said that it was a horrible route by Pope.

Chiefs=Good
11-11-2010, 07:42 AM
FUCK im ready for a REAL qb..

A good one hangs in the pocket until a reciever passed the first down marker gets open and takes the hit if needed.. Cassell once again pisses down his leg at the slightest pressure.....

Count Zarth
11-11-2010, 07:46 AM
It wasn't a horrible route by Pope. He was just running the route the play called for.

It was a horrible decision by Cassel. You only throw to the tight end if he has clear running room to pick up the first.

Cassel threw to Pope because Moeaki was blanketed and he shit himself.

Baconeater
11-11-2010, 07:46 AM
I dont think we will release him after we made such a significant investment in him.

I just hope that we draft him some competition.

and stop calling me Frankly.
So you're saying since we overpaid him for two years we need to continue to overpay him? That doesn't make a damn bit of sense.

Chiefs=Good
11-11-2010, 07:51 AM
It wasn't a horrible route by Pope. He was just running the route the play called for.

It was a horrible decision by Cassel. You only throw to the tight end if he has clear running room to pick up the first.

Cassel threw to Pope because Moeaki was blanketed and he shit himself.

While i agree with you on the Cassell being poop parts.

Pope should have kept going in the route and not stopped almost to a complete hault. He essentialyl makes his route usless in that 3rd down situation.

Unless it was in the design of the play for pope to do that, in which case Cassell didnt even understand the play call, which is quite worrisome..

Chiefs=Good
11-11-2010, 07:54 AM
So you're saying since we overpaid him for two years we need to continue to overpay him? That doesn't make a damn bit of sense.

Quite frankly i think Pioli should keep Cassell almost as a 'black spot' type of thing as if to say, "yer i made a mistake and im now paying for it".

TBH i dont give a rats ass about Clarks' money.

Having said that you only keep him as a backup..

jd1020
11-11-2010, 07:58 AM
You don't keep someone to pay them a 7.5m bonus based on poor play and to ride the bench just to say "Oops I made a mistake but I'm man enough to admit it." Unless Cassel really steps up his game in the second half I dont think even Pioli can convince himself that Cassel is worth the contract he gave him when he has the opportunity to terminate it with no strings attached.

Baconeater
11-11-2010, 07:58 AM
Quite frankly i think Pioli should keep Cassell almost as a 'black spot' type of thing as if to say, "yer i made a mistake and im now paying for it".

TBH i dont give a rats ass about Clarks' money.

Having said that you only keep him as a backup..
You should give a shit about Clark's money, when Pioli flushes $63M down a hole for a shitty player that's less money to spend elsewhere. You should also care when it means we're stuck with that shitty player because we spent so much on him.

Nevertheless, from what I understand we can shitcan Cassel at no cost at the end of the season, so I'm failing to see where we'd be obligated to keep him at all from a financial standpoint.

Chiefs=Good
11-11-2010, 08:01 AM
You don't keep someone to pay them a 7.5m bonus based on poor play and to ride the bench just to say "Oops I made a mistake but I'm man enough to admit it." Unless Cassel really steps up his game in the second half I dont think even Pioli can convince himself that Cassel is worth the contract he gave him when he has the opportunity to terminate it with no strings attached.

Maybe you should have taken that part of my post with as a bit of jest..

However.

Why does it matter at all what we pay him in an uncapped season? Yer it was a stupid mistake to pay him that much (or at all) but thats in the past and irrelevant.

jd1020
11-11-2010, 08:03 AM
Who says its going to be uncapped? Thats the dumbest argument. I guess negotiations broke down and the NFL really doesnt want to have football next year. Yup...

Lets continue to kick ourselves in the ass because 2011-2012 has the potential of being an uncapped season. I'm sure the owner will play along with that.

Chiefs=Good
11-11-2010, 08:05 AM
You should give a shit about Clark's money, when Pioli flushes $63M down a hole for a shitty player that's less money to spend elsewhere. You should also care when it means we're stuck with that shitty player because we spent so much on him.

Nevertheless, from what I understand we can shitcan Cassel at no cost at the end of the season, so I'm failing to see where we'd be obligated to keep him at all from a financial standpoint.

Yes no i hate Cassell as much as the next person. But now that it done i dont mind if they live with it (if that means Cassell is only on the team for backup purposes..)

If Cassell getting cut is the only way we go elsewhere for a qb though, im all for it..

Chiefnj2
11-11-2010, 08:08 AM
You should give a shit about Clark's money, when Pioli flushes $63M down a hole for a shitty player that's less money to spend elsewhere. You should also care when it means we're stuck with that shitty player because we spent so much on him.

.

Cassel's contract has not prevented KC from signing a single player. They are far under the cap and have been for the last few years. There is no proof that Pioli sticks with certain players because of the money paid to them.

Chiefs=Good
11-11-2010, 08:09 AM
Who says its going to be uncapped? Thats the dumbest argument. I guess negotiations broke down and the NFL really doesnt want to have football next year. Yup...

Lets continue to kick ourselves in the ass because 2011-2012 has the potential of being an uncapped season. I'm sure the owner will play along with that.

Well im sure Dane can be along to educate us on the intricacies of the uncapped year soon.. However from memory it dosnt work like that at all...

Obviously you deal with that if that problem comes up, dosnt take a massive n00b to figure that out......

Fritz88
11-11-2010, 08:09 AM
Pope does not have time to make that kind of adjustment on the ball.

This is real time:

http://i54.tinypic.com/245y2yu.jpg

He's not waiting on the ball. Hell, that thing was fired in there so fast he barely caught it - oh wait, he didn't.

It was a shitty ass call by Weis complemented by a horrible execution by Casshole.

Chiefs=Good
11-11-2010, 08:11 AM
Cassel's contract has not prevented KC from signing a single player. They are far under the cap and have been for the last few years. There is no proof that Pioli sticks with certain players because of the money paid to them.

Pretty much this. Isnt his contract structured so that its big up front anyways..?

Count Zarth
11-11-2010, 08:12 AM
I do agree it was a bad call by Weis.

He called that play as if the Raiders would concede a three-yard pass.

Would have been nice to have two receivers stretching the defense a little deeper and opening things up underneath.

Of course he might have been scared to death of his QB throwing a pick.

Chiefless
11-11-2010, 08:12 AM
We're seriously blaming that cluster**** of a third-down choke job on LEONARD POPE NOW?

http://uranus.ckt.net/%7Egochiefs/billies/new/ppop.gif

Cassel threw that ball in almost an uncatchable spot considering Pope's momentum and the position of the defender. It was like the intended receiver was Kamerion Wimbley's ASSHOLE.

This play had ZERO chance to get a first down as soon as Cassel released the ball.

Pope had no chance to "play the ball." It's not a 30-yard lob that turns into a jump ball. He has half a second to react to a throw that is zipped down the line and thrown in a poor spot.

Looks like if Pope doesn't set his feet to try to dive forward directly after catching the ball he has time to set his feet and angle to where the sideline and first down marker intersect. Not that I blame him anymore than Cassel.

My problem is still with the design of the play. All of the "downfield" receivers make their breaks at the same time and in the midst of a bunched defense. Because of that if the #1 target is covered coming out of his break Cassel has no one else to throw to, because by the time he gets to his second or third reads all the defenders have had time to recover.

The D was probably designed to take away Moeaki and Bowe. Chambers was completely engulfed by one defender and the pattern charles was given resulted in a poor throwing angle. IMO, this play never had a chance.

I'm really not defending Cassel here, because I don't think he is the answer. But I don't think he is the only problem either.

Count Zarth
11-11-2010, 08:15 AM
I'm really not defending Cassel here, because I don't think he is the answer. But I don't think he is the only problem either.

Agree with this.

Any QB we bring in needs two more legit receivers beyond Dexter McGimmick.

The lack of quality receivers on this team reflects poorly on Pioli considering he spent the offseason trying to upgrade the offense.

Chiefs=Good
11-11-2010, 08:15 AM
Looks like if Pope doesn't set his feet to try to dive forward directly after catching the ball he has time to set his feet and angle to where the sideline and first down marker intersect. Not that I blame him anymore than Cassel.

My problem is still with the design of the play. All of the "downfield" receivers make their breaks at the same time and in the midst of a bunched defense. Because of that if the #1 target is covered coming out of his break Cassel has no one else to throw to, because by the time he gets to his second or third reads all the defenders have had time to recover.

The D was probably designed to take away Moeaki and Bowe. Chambers was completely engulfed by one defender and the pattern charles was given resulted in a poor throwing angle. IMO, this play never had a chance.

I'm really not defending Cassel here, because I don't think he is the answer. But I don't think he is the only problem either.

I just think that Matts gotta give that play time to develop... Its all on Cassell as much as pope stuffed up his route and the catch...

Chiefs=Good
11-11-2010, 08:16 AM
A good qb should hopefully be able to not only make our current wr's better, but should also be able to take full advantage of our amazing rush offense..

Baconeater
11-11-2010, 08:18 AM
Cassel's contract has not prevented KC from signing a single player. They are far under the cap and have been for the last few years. There is no proof that Pioli sticks with certain players because of the money paid to them.
Yes, in this case it likely hasn't prevented them from signing anyone, but bad decisions like this could in the future. And keep in mind, the salary cap (assuming there will be one again) does not necessarily equal what Clark is willing to spend.

With that said, the only thing I am taking exception to is the notion that BossChief put out there that we need to keep Cassel because of some type of alleged 'investment' we've made in him. You don't keep blindly throwing money at a losing investment on the slim hope that it might one day pay off.

ForeverChiefs58
11-11-2010, 08:22 AM
Please, please don't throw at the line of scrimmage to someone who is covered and has zero chance. Is it THAT much to ask?

Chiefs=Good
11-11-2010, 08:23 AM
Please, please don't throw at the line of scrimmage to someone who is covered and has zero chance. Is it THAT much to ask?

For Matt, yes.

Count Zarth
11-11-2010, 08:43 AM
That play falls under the same category as Grbac hitting Ted Popson for a two-yard gain with the clock winding down in the 1997 playoff game, knowing he had zero chance to get out of bounds.

Brain farts for all!

Popson should have played the ball better, though.

Chiefnj2
11-11-2010, 08:52 AM
When all is said and done, it was good defense by the Raiders. Poor pass by Cassel. He should have tried to buy some time like he did in OT against the Bills. I don't care for a play where the "outlet" pass has the guy running to the LOS when you need two yards.

Fish
11-11-2010, 08:53 AM
It was a shitty ass call by Weis complemented by a horrible execution by Casshole.

How can you say that without knowing exactly what the play was and how it was meant to unfold? Seeing the first 5 seconds of the play doesn't count.

I'm still convinced that Cassel shit the bed before any of the receivers had a chance to make any moves. He has the ball out before any receiver gets further than a few yards. He needed to step up and let the play develop. But he got flustered and forced the ball.

And anybody that says it was Pope's fault he didn't get the 1st is crazy IMO. You don't hang the ball there, with a defender in his grill, and rely on an 8' tall TE to bust a move around a LB.

chiefzilla1501
11-11-2010, 06:12 PM
Cassel's contract has not prevented KC from signing a single player. They are far under the cap and have been for the last few years. There is no proof that Pioli sticks with certain players because of the money paid to them.

The problem I have is that the Cassel mistake puts the Chiefs 2 years behind in progress. It usually takes about 3 years for QBs to hit their stride. We've seen a lot of rookie QBs do really well w/kid's gloves on--good news is, with this offense, we can afford to do that.

So no, throwing money away is fine. What angers me is that we could and should be 1-2 years into developing a young QB. I don't care what receivers are in next year's class, I don't think there's any excuse not to be looking at QB in the first round.

chiefzilla1501
11-11-2010, 06:17 PM
I do agree it was a bad call by Weis.

He called that play as if the Raiders would concede a three-yard pass.

Would have been nice to have two receivers stretching the defense a little deeper and opening things up underneath.

Of course he might have been scared to death of his QB throwing a pick.

Well, like I said, I think it was a good enough playcall--it's a sign of an offensive coordinator pre-determining reads and throwing in a very conservative pass play because he doesn't trust his QB. So I agree with you on the last point. But I think the play blew up not because Cassel made the wrong decision, but because his read was pre-determined by Weis. I think he was told to fake left and then immediately throw the ball to Moeaki first and Pope as a backup option.

chiefzilla1501
11-11-2010, 06:20 PM
How can you say that without knowing exactly what the play was and how it was meant to unfold? Seeing the first 5 seconds of the play doesn't count.

I'm still convinced that Cassel shit the bed before any of the receivers had a chance to make any moves. He has the ball out before any receiver gets further than a few yards. He needed to step up and let the play develop. But he got flustered and forced the ball.

And anybody that says it was Pope's fault he didn't get the 1st is crazy IMO. You don't hang the ball there, with a defender in his grill, and rely on an 8' tall TE to bust a move around a LB.

The key to me is that Albert cuts his defender down. jd brought up a great point yesterday that it was a slant play and Albert chopped the guy down to open up a passing window to Bowe. I disagree. I think the chop was to either ensure no pass rush on the blind side for a quick play or it was a designed fake left. And I think that because of 1) how quickly he gives up on the left side (before the chop ever happens); 2) because Cassel looks at two reads. How many times have we seen him look at 2 reads in 2 seconds unless it was designed that way? Either way, that chop indicates to me that the play was designed for Cassel to get rid of the ball quickly.

BossChief
11-11-2010, 08:40 PM
Monkeys throw poop...seriously.

This thread having more than one page and the original poster still have pos rep is a tragedy.your and idiot

thanks for the contribution, Okungsack

Bullshit. Wimbley was playing with his back to the QB. He never once turned his head. If Pope comes toward the ball, he either draws an interference call or he forces Wimbley to change his momentum and cut in a totally different direction.

Instead, he looks like he tries to make a safe catch. Like he's waiting for the ball to come to him so he can cradle it in.
You should apologize to Pope the way you are making excuses for Cassel at the expense of him and everyone else on that play...other than Cassel.

So you're saying since we overpaid him for two years we need to continue to overpay him? That doesn't make a damn bit of sense.While even giving the guy half off fountain soda as payment would be overpayment to some extent, for all he has caused us. If you take that bonus out of the equation, then the remainder of the contract is liveable while still investing in a first round quarterback. Here is the remainder:

2011: $4.75 million (+ $7.5 million option bonus), 2012: $5.25 million, 2013: $7.5 million, 2014: $9 million, 2015: Free Agent

Yes, in this case it likely hasn't prevented them from signing anyone, but bad decisions like this could in the future. And keep in mind, the salary cap (assuming there will be one again) does not necessarily equal what Clark is willing to spend.

With that said, the only thing I am taking exception to is the notion that BossChief put out there that we need to keep Cassel because of some type of alleged 'investment' we've made in him. You don't keep blindly throwing money at a losing investment on the slim hope that it might one day pay off.
First off, Clark has gotten a bad wrap for "being cheap" so far under his tenure because we went into a full bore rebuild (and rightfully so) the moment Lamar (RIP) passed and therefore, the amount spent on players is gonna be extremely low naturally. Look at what he did during this timeframe with the stadium as well. He has spent a shitton of his own cash on this team, dont be fooled.

His dad always OKd pushing the salary cap to keep the team competitive.

ALWAYS.

I believe that Clark will as well, look at what he did with DJ as his first move since being in control of contracts. Not exactly a contract done with being cheap in mind, is it?

...

Getting on to Cassel. I am not saying that is what I want, just that I could see that as the way this plays out.

Even if we draft someone, I dont really see any veterans that are gonna give us much more as a stopgap until a rookie should take the reigns if we were to outright cut Cassel. I dont want to see another year of Cassel starting, but I am not sure how much more we could get out of a signed veteran for the year, or less, until a rookie would get to take the keys and take the car out for a spin.

I can see Cassel being the Jon Kitna to Carson Palmer (for lack of a better descriptor)

Marcellus
11-11-2010, 08:46 PM
The problem I have is that the Cassel mistake puts the Chiefs 2 years behind in progress. It usually takes about 3 years for QBs to hit their stride. We've seen a lot of rookie QBs do really well w/kid's gloves on--good news is, with this offense, we can afford to do that.

So no, throwing money away is fine. What angers me is that we could and should be 1-2 years into developing a young QB. I don't care what receivers are in next year's class, I don't think there's any excuse not to be looking at QB in the first round.

THIS is the issue not the $. Nobody would be bitching about the $ had we drafted a bust QB instead and paid him the $. The issue would be the wasted pick and time.

Which is what the issue is now.

chiefzilla1501
11-11-2010, 09:24 PM
You should apologize to Pope the way you are making excuses for Cassel at the expense of him and everyone else on that play...other than Cassel.



Who's making excuses for Cassel? I've already told you that Weis has such little trust in Cassel that he dialed up a conservative quick pass play with a pre-determined read. Like I said, based on how I interpret the play, I believe he was at the mercy of the playcall. Cassel was the victim of a play that didn't work, but he was a victim because he hasn't done well enough to be trusted with an open-ended play.

And yes, Pope was the victim of being a pre-determined second read. But that shouldn't make it excusable to not make a play on the ball the way you're supposed to.

BossChief
11-11-2010, 09:38 PM
Zilla, you have exhausted every way of defending Cassel on that specific play.

EVERY SINGLE WAY

First he had the ball 4 seconds...then 3...then Bowe wasn't open, then he was but the safety was right there...then Cassel made the right decision to make that throw, then it was Popes fault for not making the correct move after the catch, then he should have came back to the ball, then it was a bad play design.

Nothing about Cassel fucking up. Which is what happened.

Im done.

chiefzilla1501
11-11-2010, 10:05 PM
Zilla, you have exhausted every way of defending Cassel on that specific play.

EVERY SINGLE WAY

First he had the ball 4 seconds...then 3...then Bowe wasn't open, then he was but the safety was right there...then Cassel made the right decision to make that throw, then it was Popes fault for not making the correct move after the catch, then he should have came back to the ball, then it was a bad play design.

Nothing about Cassel ****ing up. Which is what happened.

Im done.

You're gonna dabble in ticky-tack details like 4 seconds vs. 3?

I'm defending Cassel on this play because I have viewed the tape a million times and I interpret this as a fake left with a pre-determined quick pass right. I've given plenty of reasons why I believe this is so and they all have strong merit. I'm not going to say somebody ****ed up when I don't believe they did.

The only thing that gave me pause was jd pointing out that Bowe was open (not deep) but on the quick slant. He thinks Albert chopped his guy down to open up the lane for that and it worked. I've already given my reasons why that option was never anything more than a decoy. That's my interpretation. If you disagree on this point, I think it's a valid defense. But most people aren't arguing about this part.

I hate Cassel, but I'm not going to let my hatred affect the way I interpret a play.