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Reaper16
11-30-2010, 09:59 PM
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1179410/1/index.htm

Story broken up amongst 8 pages, so I'm not going to copy/paste the full text here.

Figured this would be of interest to us all here.

Pawnmower
11-30-2010, 10:09 PM
ty for posting this

irishjayhawk
11-30-2010, 10:12 PM
A Dream In The Making

The young man, going out of his town to meet the adventure of life, began to think but he did not think of anything very big or dramatic.... He thought of the little things....

—SHERWOOD ANDERSON, Winesburg, Ohio

Scott Pioli has what looks like the biggest desk in America. The thing must be 14 feet long, with drawers large and deep enough to hold two or three defensive tackles. The desk is a thing of beauty—dark stained wood and a thick glass top—and it is enormous because of a misunderstanding. Pioli had looked at the blueprints for his new office in Kansas City, and he misread the proportions. He has never had a good mind for spatial relations. After taking over as the Chiefs' general manager nearly two years ago, he expected a normal-sized desk and instead got one bigger than the team bus.

He still feels sheepish about it, but he has grown used to the big desk. Pioli is 45 now and still has a bit of the look of the All--New England defensive tackle he was at Division II Central Connecticut State. He sits behind the big desk the NFL-recommended daily allowance of hours (18, often) and thinks of little things. All of his professional life, Pioli has longed to recapture something, something from his childhood, something difficult for him to explain. It is something he tries to explain now. He begins to talk about how, in building a team, you want—no, more than want, you need—to find people who will do the right thing most of the time.

Then he stops. No. That will sound wrong, sanctimonious, and that's not what he wants, not at all. "There are a million skeletons in that closet," he says, and he points at the closet past the end of his desk. He turns the conversation, starts to talk about how powerful a team can be, how much a team can mean, how much his own team....

And he stops again. No. His eyes redden, and he stares at the wall with the writing on it, and he knows that he is blowing it. Bruce Springsteen, Pioli's idol, sings about how he "lived a secret I shoulda kept to myself." Pioli feels words are diminishing what is in his mind. People will get the wrong idea. This is why he doesn't like talking about it.

He repeats some of the core words about building a team, hoping their power might fill the empty spaces. Reliability. Dependability. Accountability. Discipline. But these words have been used so often and so much in vain that they shrivel and fray and lose their color in the light of day. Say discipline, for instance, and people think of banning long hair and earrings and tattoos, of avoiding dumb penalties. "That's not at all what I'm talking about," Pioli says.

Lived a secret he shoulda kept to himself. Yes. It's better to say nothing. There are fewer misunderstandings that way. For most of the previous decade Pioli was the Patriots' general manager without being called that; his official title was vice president--player personnel, featuring a dash instead of the word of—like United States--America. Nobody could say precisely what the title meant, and it didn't matter. Led by coach Bill Belichick, inspired by quarterback Tom Brady and flanked by scores of people famous and unknown, New England and Pioli won three Super Bowls in four years. They lost another in February 2008 after going 18--0 during the regular season and playoffs. For all this, ESPN named Pioli NFL personnel man of the decade.

He stayed in the shadows. It is almost impossible to find a story about Scott Pioli that does not refer, usually at length, to his anonymity. The popular thought was that he remained in the background in deference to Belichick, his friend and mentor, and there is some truth in that. But then in January 2009, after turning down more jobs than he will ever reveal, he came with great fanfare to Kansas City to reshape a dysfunctional Chiefs team, and he moved right back into the shadows. At his first press conference he announced that he expected the coach, not the G.M., to be the public face of the franchise. He talked about how he had no interest in individual stardom—"I'm not here to sell jerseys"—and he rarely did interviews. When The Kansas City Star attempted to do a bigger story about him, where he comes from, what drives him, what he thinks about, Pioli called friends and family back home in Washingtonville, N.Y., and asked them not to reveal anything. The story that appeared in the paper was mostly about how Pioli wanted no story to appear in the paper.

This year the Chiefs have improved dramatically—on Sunday they beat the Seahawks 42--24 for their seventh win in 11 games, more victories than they had in 2008 and '09 combined—and Pioli has stayed in character. He has been distant, careful, emerging only every now and again, mostly to remind everyone that his team is still a work in progress. He sits behind that big desk, and he scouts college players, and he talks with agents, and he works over the salary cap, and he pushes his coaches, and he raises expectations, and he pierces egos, and every now and again he stares at his wall where the Winesburg, Ohio passage is written in calligraphy. The young man, going out of his town to meet the adventure of life.

Page 2 of 8
What did that young man want?

"It's hard for me to put into words," Pioli says, "but I have these friends... ."

He has other friends in sports, of course. Pioli has spent most of his professional life seeking out anyone he thought had good ideas about how to put a team together. He's on something like a quest. He learned more about team-building from Belichick than anyone else. He has learned plenty more from his father-in-law, a pretty fair coach and G.M. named Bill Parcells. (Pioli and his wife, Dallas, have a daughter, Mia.) But those four friends are all about his age, and they have similar ideals. They have all had success—they have been part of four pennants, two World Series wins, three Super Bowl victories and four NBA championships. They talk about many things, as friends do, but mostly they talk about how you build teams, real teams, in this crazy era of big contracts and Nike commercials and a million other distractions.

"Obviously," Francona says, "our sports are different." Francona likes to bring Pioli into the Red Sox' clubhouse a few minutes before a game and watch him do a slow burn when he hears the loud music and sees how relaxed all the players look. Where's the passion? Where's the fury? What are those guys doing over there—dozing? Are you kidding me?

Page 3 of 8
"I have to tell him all the time, 'Scott, we play 162 of these things,'" Francona says. "It's different in football, where they play one game a week and [game day] is, like, sacred. We do this every day. And if we put too much emphasis on one game, if we have too many team meetings, if we get up for every game the way they do for football, it's not going to work."

In the end Francona feels sure there are more similarities than differences between baseball and football. He and Pioli had met briefly a few times but got to know each other on the night in November 2005 when both were inducted into the New England Chapter of the Italian-American Sports Hall of Fame. That night, Francona says, they talked about a million things and came to realize that they saw them precisely the same way. By the end of the night they were finishing each other's sentences.

"How often does it happen," Francona says, "when you are talking to someone and you realize that you know exactly where that person is coming from, and they know exactly where you're coming from?"

And so they have leaned on each other about what kind of players you need to make a team, what kind of leaders you need, how you handle the roughest situations. Just this year, when the Red Sox struggled in April and early May, Francona would often talk to Pioli about David Ortiz. Ortiz, of course, is a Boston icon, one of the best and most popular players in recent Red Sox history, a leader on the 2004 and '07 World Series winners. And Ortiz was utterly helpless at the plate. He was hitting .143 with one home run on May 1. He looked sapped and old at 34, and Francona felt utterly conflicted.

"What do you do when an icon is not playing well?" Pioli asks. "Terry and I talked about that a lot. That's one of the toughest questions we face. On the one hand the team always matters more than the individual. But on the other hand there are questions about loyalty. I mean, Big Papi, there you have a great player who has done so much for the team both on the field and off. And everyone is watching—the fans, the other players, the media. Everyone is watching."

Francona admits he wasn't sure if Ortiz would come out of it. "I think you just try to be aware," Francona says. "That's one of the things Scott and I talk about. You just try to be aware of everything, let it all in, and you don't make decisions with your emotions. I know David felt we weren't staying with him. And I know a lot of other people thought we were staying with him too much. It's all how you look at it."

In the end Francona mostly stayed with Ortiz—who went on to hit .286 with 31 homers and a .558 slugging percentage from May 1 through the rest of the season.

"It was difficult," Francona says. "I know Scott feels this way. You have to look at the big picture. Then you have to look at the small picture. Then you have to look how the small picture affects the big pictures. Let's face it. There are a lot of pictures."

WASHINGTONVILLE

Scott Pioli comes from the Village of Washingtonville—it's a place old enough that it's still called a village. It is about 60 miles north of Newark, a couple of miles off the New York Thruway, a blue-collar place of about 6,000 people filled with firefighters and police officers and union workers. It is the sort of town Bruce Springsteen sings happily and unhappily about, which is probably why Pioli has had a poster of Springsteen on his wall from his earliest memory.

Page 4 of 8
There are two experiences that stand out from Pioli's childhood in Washingtonville, two events that created this intense desire to build close-knit, rely-on-each-other, us-against-the-world football teams. One was in 1981: That was the year he played on a Washingtonville High team that went 10--0 and won the conference championship. Pioli loves that team. There were only 31 players on it. They weren't especially talented—not one would go on to play Division I—and they had no real history of success to draw on. Washingtonville had never been very good at football.

But those kids had grown up together, and they looked out for one another, and the only thing that mattered to any of them was winning. They gave up 53 points all season. "There were three other teams at least that were clearly, visibly, unquestionably more talented," says Pioli. "We outtoughed them. We outthought them. We outconditioned them."

And this is when Pioli started to think about what a team of intensely devoted and disciplined players could do. Well, actually, he started thinking about it a few years earlier. But the 1981 team crystallized the thought in his mind. Togetherness, real togetherness, could beat all the talent in the world.





1/2

Edited for people who like screen-estate.

irishjayhawk
11-30-2010, 10:12 PM
TALENT

"Look," Thomas Dimitroff is saying, "you have to start with talent. That's obvious."

Pioli and Dimitroff became friends out of desperation as much as anything. Pioli's story of getting into football has become somewhat legendary: When he was at Central Connecticut State he would drive 90 minutes to watch the Giants practice, and through a friend of a friend he met Belichick, then a New York assistant coach. The two hit it off—Belichick famously let the kid sleep in a spare bed in the dorm suite Belichick shared with Al Groh—and in 1992, when Belichick was in charge in Cleveland, he hired Pioli for an unclear personnel job with the Browns for the crystal-clear salary of 16 grand a year.

Dimitroff's story is, if anything, even more remarkable. His father, Tom, was a longtime football coach and scout, mostly in Canada. Dimitroff wanted badly to be in the game. He worked for a short while in Canadian football, then for the World League of American Football, and then found himself without a job. He had a chance to go into business and thought hard about it. "But I didn't want to start making money in business," he says, "because then I knew I wouldn't go back to football."

Instead he joined the Browns' grounds crew. Yes. The grounds crew. That's where he and Pioli met and almost immediately began to talk about their philosophies about building football teams. They were invisible then, probably not making $30,000 between them, and nobody else cared what they thought about building teams. So they talked with each other, often about the odd relationship between talent and winning.

"I think Scott and I both believe it's much easier—much easier—to build a team when you're throwing character issues out the window," says Dimitroff, who rose from volunteer scout with the Browns to New England's director of college scouting before becoming the Falcons' G.M. in January 2008. "There are some very, very talented players coming into this league through the draft, through free agency, and the easy thing to do is to bring in the most talented players whether they fit or don't fit. You can win that way, no question about it."

"But," Pioli says, "the key is sustainability. Do you want to build a team that will win once and then implode? I don't think that's the job. The job is to make the difficult decisions so you can build the kind of team that can be in position to win every single year."

Page 5 of 8
This has been a major point of contention in Kansas City. The Chiefs have not won a playoff game since the 1993 season. But former team president Carl Peterson had a knack for finding superstars. Linebacker Derrick Thomas is in the Hall of Fame, tight end Tony Gonzalez and offensive linemen Will Shields and Willie Roaf figure to join him there soon. Priest Holmes set a single-season record for rushing touchdowns. Joe Montana and Marcus Allen and Larry Johnson—there were always talented players in Kansas City, led by successful coaches like Marty Schottenheimer and Dick Vermeil. And still the Chiefs did not win even one playoff game.

And so when Pioli got to Kansas City, he announced that the day of the individual was over. His mantra was, "We don't want the best 53 players, we want the right 53 players." Every G.M. talks about building families, but Pioli believed it. He wanted to be surrounded by lifelong football men. He found that he saw eye to eye with Chiefs owner Clark Hunt, son of football legend Lamar Hunt, who had grown up around the pro game. As his coach he hired Cardinals defensive coordinator Todd Haley, whose father, Dick, was a longtime scout and one of the architects of the 1970s Steelers.

Haley in turn hired offensive coordinator Charlie Weis and defensive coordinator Romeo Crennel, who held those same positions for New England when the Patriots won three Super Bows. And while Pioli insists the Chiefs are not a good team yet—"We have so far to go," Pioli says—he does say that he can begin to see things coming together.

He brought in Tom Brady's backup, Matt Cassel, to be the quarterback. "Matt represents all the things we are trying to do here," Pioli says. "He is completely unselfish." The Chiefs have found a few jewels left over from the Peterson regime, starting with linebacker Derrick Johnson, cornerback Brandon Flowers and running back Jamaal Charles.

And Pioli has clearly changed the drafting philosophy. The Chiefs have passed on bigger names to bring in "the people who fit the kind of team we want to become." Six of the seven Chiefs picks in 2010, from first-round safety Eric Berry of Tennessee to fifth-round safety Kendrick Lewis of Mississippi, were everyday captains on their college teams. That percentage led the NFL.

Not surprisingly, four of Atlanta's seven draft choices in 2010 were also college captains. "I want to stress this again and again," says Dimitroff, whose Falcons, at 9--2, are tied for the best record in the NFL. "None of us are saying we are right. There are countless ways to build teams, and no one of them is better or more right than the others. I'm just saying it's the right way for me and the Atlanta Falcons. It's the right way for Scott and the Kansas City Chiefs.

"I think we learned this in New England—we just have a hypersensitivity to distractions," Dimitroff adds. "Character issues can be a distraction. Selfishness can be a distraction. There are a thousand of them. And they can tear down what you're trying to do. Talent is essential. But it really comes down to what talent means."

KNOWING WHO YOU ARE

"I think we had a connection because of our relationship to [high-profile] coaches," says R.C. Buford, who met Pioli a few years ago through Cleveland's Shapiro. "Bill Belichick. Gregg Popovich. I think we connected because we were trying to realize the vision both of those guys have."

In 1994 Popovich made Buford the Spurs' head scout, and he quietly moved up to director of scouting, then vice president, then general manager. But as with Pioli, the titles don't matter. The titles—San Antonio's four NBA championships—do. The Spurs, like the Patriots, became the industry standard for unselfish team play. And what Buford found in talking with Pioli is that they shared a thrill about winning a certain way: with hardworking players who played for one another, and for that larger purpose.

Page 6 of 8
They were stunned at how similarly their teams played. For instance, you would not think Tom Brady and San Antonio star Tim Duncan are alike at all. Brady seems fiery and outspoken, Duncan cool and withdrawn. But what Buford and Pioli found is that both players inspire similar feelings: The guys around them want to play better. This is probably what people mean when they say that a player "makes his teammates better," but that's too vague and simplified. Buford and Pioli believe that the best players inspire teammates in very direct ways.

"You don't want to disappoint them," Pioli says.

"A [teammate] naturally doesn't want a great player to be working harder than he is working," Buford says.

"If a great player doesn't care openly about his individual achievements—and it's clear Tom Brady and Tim Duncan don't—then other players can't care about their individual achievements either," Pioli says.

And, finally, there's the realization in New England and San Antonio that Brady and Duncan are such great players that the team has a real shot at a championship every year. That, too, lifts players up.

"I think Scott and I would agree that it doesn't happen by accident," Buford says. "It comes from knowing who you are. It comes from knowing what you want to be."

DEPENDABILITY

Pioli believes—all these guys believe—that the whole idea of building a team has turned into a cliché. It's as if when people think about a team, they picture a homogenized collection of hustlers and gamers and choirboys who do everything right on the field and off. That's not exactly what any of these guys want. What they want are players who reflect what they believe sports are about.

"I think if you are an authentic leader," Mark Shapiro says, "you can't separate the man you are from the leader you are. You can't separate what you believe from the kind of team you're building. That's all we are really talking about here. We're not looking for robots. We're not looking for perfect people.

"You know what we are looking for? I got this from [longtime major league G.M.] Pat Gillick. We want players who are dependable. I don't necessarily mean they give dependable performances. Performance varies, and some of that is beyond a player's control. We want players who are dependable in the way they go about their lives. Players who treat the parking-lot attendant right, players who talk to their teammates, players who will go about their business in practices, in their video work, in their strength and conditioning work. Dependable. Players you can depend on."

Page 7 of 8
This is at the heart of what Pioli and Shapiro talk about most. They have been friends the longest—they go back to their Cleveland days, when they were both just starting out, and Shapiro was a front-office staffer with the Indians. Pioli has talked to Shapiro at great length about his Washingtonville High football team. They both know he's never going to replicate that, not exactly. He's never going to be able to build a team filled with longtime friends who grew up tough and care only about one another and want to win because winning is the biggest thing in their imagination. No, this is pro football, this is major league baseball, this is the NBA, and there are billions of dollars involved and millions of fans and salary caps and free agency, and you can't cut through all of that and build a team like Washingtonville.

All you can do is try.

A few years ago the Indians had talented but volatile outfielder Milton Bradley. Shapiro and Pioli had long talks about him. Bradley was probably Cleveland's best player in 2003. He was also a constant distraction. The Indians lost 94 games that year. "I really leaned on Scott then," Shapiro says, "and it came down to this: Are you going to stand behind what you say? Is this about mission statements or is it about what you really believe?"

Shapiro traded Bradley to the Dodgers before the start of the 2004 season. The Indians won 93 games in '05, with Bradley's centerfield position taken by the consummate Shapiro player Grady Sizemore, and two years later they made it to the American League Championship Series, where they lost to Francona's Red Sox in seven games.

"In the end," Shapiro says, "the question is, Are you going to stand for anything?"

THE BIG DESK

When Scott Pioli was eight, his father's union at the phone company went on strike. Ron Pioli was out on strike for half a year. Those were tough times, the sort of times an eight-year-old never forgets. There were four kids, a mortgage, mother Diane trying to keep it all together. Everything felt fragile. Nobody was sure how it would all turn out.

Ron Pioli took on three jobs. He pumped gas at Doc's Sunoco on Route 208. He drove a cab. And he worked for a plumber, Mr. Picone, on weekends. None of the jobs paid great, but together they paid enough to get by for those long months.

And this—more even than the unbeaten high school football team, more than the lessons from Belichick, more than all the talks with all of his friends—stamped the idea of team in Pioli's mind. Why? Well, Pioli says, it's obvious, isn't it? Doc didn't need anyone to help him pump gas and couldn't really afford to take on help. The cab company didn't need another driver. Mr. Picone did not need a part-time assistant.

But they all gave Ron Pioli work because he needed it, because he had a family to feed, because times were tight. They didn't do it because it was the right thing to do or because it was the charitable thing to do. They did it because that's what people did in Washingtonville and thousands of other places like it. That, Scott Pioli believes with all his soul, is what great teams should do. They take care of one another. They stand behind one another. They rely on one another. Linebacker misses a tackle, a safety is there to make the play. Quarterback is in trouble, a receiver comes back to help. Running back is too beat up to block, a guard takes on two men. It's the same thing.

Page 8 of 8
"I've been part of winners," Pioli says, "and I've been part of losers. I've seen every side of this thing." He sits behind the big desk, and tears are in his eyes, and he points at the wall with the rest of the Winesburg, Ohio quote.

He closed his eyes and leaned back in the car seat. He stayed that way for a long time and when he aroused himself and looked out of the car window the town of Winesburg had disappeared and his life there had become but a background on which to paint the dreams of his manhood.

"You know, there are a lot of ways to win," Pioli said. "But there's only one way for me to win and be proud of winning." And then Scott Pioli apologized for getting emotional, and he stood up and took the long walk around his desk and toward the coaches' offices, and went back to work.

Now on SI.com

Joe Posnanski blogs about ... well ... everything, at joeposnanski.SI.com

2/2

DaneMcCloud
11-30-2010, 10:16 PM
I brought a tear to my eye

The Bad Guy
11-30-2010, 10:18 PM
I'm a fan. The right 53 gets mocked a lot around here, but to have this sort of turnaround in such a short period of time is outstanding.

Count Alex's Losses
11-30-2010, 10:21 PM
Oh brother:


But those kids had grown up together, and they looked out for one another, and the only thing that mattered to any of them was winning. They gave up 53 points all season. "There were three other teams at least that were clearly, visibly, unquestionably more talented," says Pioli. "We outtoughed them. We outthought them. We outconditioned them."

And this is when Pioli started to think about what a team of intensely devoted and disciplined players could do. Well, actually, he started thinking about it a few years earlier. But the 1981 team crystallized the thought in his mind. Togetherness, real togetherness, could beat all the talent in the world.

http://i52.tinypic.com/2yl6zih.jpg

Rexx
11-30-2010, 10:22 PM
Thanks...that was a nice read. In Pioli we trust.

DaneMcCloud
11-30-2010, 10:25 PM
Thanks...that was a nice read. In Pioli we trust.

The Royal "we"?

RustShack
11-30-2010, 10:27 PM
I bought into the right 53 and I was one of the few saying we would be around 10 wins this year even with a lot of the same players. How do you like me now haters !

Wyndex
11-30-2010, 10:31 PM
interesting on the connection between Pioli and Dimitroff...also interesting was Todd Haley as the Cardinal's defensive coordinator

Rexx
11-30-2010, 10:34 PM
The Royal "we"?

In Pioli I Trust. Better?

So thankful we don't have to deal with Peterson anymore. I thought we would be stuck with that jackass forever.

chiefzilla1501
11-30-2010, 10:35 PM
Thought it was a great article. But don't think Poz needed to mention that Pioli aroused himself in the car. Seems like an unnecessary detail.

chiefzilla1501
11-30-2010, 10:37 PM
Oh brother:


http://i52.tinypic.com/2yl6zih.jpg





The main difference between the underachieving Cowboys and Bengals, and the Chiefs has nothing to do with talent.

One team plays every game like they're preparing for the playoffs. The other team treats every game like it's the Super Bowl.

Count Alex's Losses
11-30-2010, 10:39 PM
The main difference between the underachieving Cowboys and Bengals, and the Chiefs has nothing to do with talent.

Indeed.

http://professionalgamingtips.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/nfc-west.jpeg

Dave Lane
11-30-2010, 10:51 PM
I thought early on in this season that the improvement would be greater than most thought. But I'll admit I didn't think it would be this good. I thought 8-8 9-7 type season with next year being a bigger improvement. I'm glad to admit I was wrong.

|Zach|
11-30-2010, 10:51 PM
Thanks for the heads up. Looking forward to reading it.

KcMizzou
11-30-2010, 10:53 PM
I thought early on in this season that the improvement would be greater than most thought. But I'll admit I didn't think it would be this good. I thought 8-8 9-7 type season with next year being a bigger improvement. I'm glad to admit I was wrong.I was hoping for 8-8 and I'm admittedly a huge homer.

KcMizzou
11-30-2010, 10:55 PM
Thanks for the link, Reaper. It'll be nice to read some Chiefs related stuff from JoPo again.

noa
11-30-2010, 11:07 PM
Soft schedule and all aside, it's nice to see the Chiefs beat the teams they are supposed to beat. We weren't doing that for the last few years (lost to the Bill and Browns at home last year, and the season before that was an absolute joke). We're headed down the path so eventually we'll start picking up the unexpected wins, too. And then we'll be ready for a playoff run.

I think Pioli has us going in the right direction, but the article conveniently doesn't mention the Tyson Jackson debacle. That is a pretty big stain on Pioli's resume so far.

KcMizzou
11-30-2010, 11:12 PM
Soft schedule and all aside, it's nice to see the Chiefs beat the teams they are supposed to beat. We weren't doing that for the last few years (lost to the Bill and Browns at home last year, and the season before that was an absolute joke). We're headed down the path so eventually we'll start picking up the unexpected wins, too. And then we'll be ready for a playoff run.

I think Pioli has us going in the right direction, but the article conveniently doesn't mention the Tyson Jackson debacle. That is a pretty big stain on Pioli's resume so far.We're picking up "unexpected wins" this season, if you think back.

That's the thing about success, it changes expectations quickly.

CaliforniaChief
11-30-2010, 11:17 PM
I said this leading up to yesterday's game and I'll say it now: Sunday's game was huge. And while San Diego's win definitely overshadowed it, I thought it signified something big. In a hostile environment, they took care of business. They appear to be improving as the season progresses, particularly at key positions like QB and WR.

I'm a believer in Pioli and his way of doing things.

'Hamas' Jenkins
11-30-2010, 11:35 PM
Joe Po has always been the master at writing 8,000 word fluff pieces.

I think that Pioli should be commended for separating the wheat from the chaff of the old regime, but almost all of the impact talent was already in place.

You could make a case for Flowers, DJ, Bowe, Hali, and Charles all making the pro bowl this year.

Top that off with Albert, Waters, and Carr as solid starters and Cox, Richardson, Studebaker, Williams, and even McGraw as rotational players, and the cupboard wasn't nearly as bare as many thought.

SNR
11-30-2010, 11:59 PM
JoPo fucked up. He said Pioli hired former Cardinals' defensive coordinator Todd Haley as head coach.

T-post Tom
12-01-2010, 12:05 AM
Young George Willard got out of bed at four in the morning. It was April and the young tree leaves were just coming out of their buds. The trees along the residence streets in Winesburg are maple and the seeds are winged. When the wind blows they whirl crazily about, filling the air and making a carpet underfoot.

George came downstairs into the hotel office carrying a brown leather bag. His trunk was packed for departure. Since two o'clock he had been awake thinking of the journey he was about to take and wondering what he would find at the end of his journey. The boy who slept in the hotel office lay on a cot by the door. His mouth was open and he snored lustily. George crept past the cot and went out into the silent deserted main street. The east was pink with the dawn and long streaks of light climbed into the sky where a few stars still shone.

Beyond the last house on Trunion Pike in Winesburg there is a great stretch of open fields. The fields are owned by farmers who live in town and drive homeward at evening along Trunion Pike in light creaking wagons. In the fields are planted berries and small fruits. In the late afternoon in the hot summers when the road and the fields are covered with dust, a smoky haze lies over the great flat basin of land. To look across it is like looking out across the sea. In the spring when the land is green the effect is somewhat different. The land becomes a wide green billiard table on which tiny human insects toil up and down.

All through his boyhood and young manhood George Willard had been in the habit of walking on Trunion Pike. He had been in the midst of the great open place on winter nights when it was covered with snow and only the moon looked down at him; he had been there in the fall when bleak winds blew and on summer evenings when the air vibrated with the song of insects. On the April morning he wanted to go there again, to walk again in the silence. He did walk to where the road dipped down by a little stream two miles from town and then turned and walked silently back again. When he got to Main Street clerks were sweeping the sidewalks before the stores. "Hey, you George. How does it feel to be going away?" they asked.

The westbound train leaves Winesburg at seven forty-five in the morning. Tom Little is conductor. His train runs from Cleveland to where it connects with a great trunk line railroad with terminals in Chicago and New York. Tom has what in railroad circles is called an "easy run." Every evening he returns to his family. In the fall and spring he spends his Sundays fishing in Lake Erie. He has a round red face and small blue eyes. He knows the people in the towns along his railroad better than a city man knows the people who live in his apartment building.

George came down the little incline from the New Willard House at seven o'clock. Tom Willard carried his bag. The son had become taller than the father.

On the station platform everyone shook the young man's hand. More than a dozen people waited about. Then they talked of their own affairs. Even Will Henderson, who was lazy and often slept until nine, had got out of bed. George was embarrassed. Gertrude Wilmot, a tall thin woman of fifty who worked in the Winesburg post office, came along the station platform. She had never before paid any attention to George. Now she stopped and put out her hand. In two words she voiced what everyone felt. "Good luck," she said sharply and then turning went on her way.

When the train came into the station George felt relieved. He scampered hurriedly aboard. Helen White came running along Main Street hoping to have a parting word with him, but he had found a seat and did not see her. When the train started Tom Little punched his ticket, grinned and, although he knew George well and knew on what adventure he was just setting out, made no comment. Tom had seen a thousand George Willards go out of their towns to the city. It was a commonplace enough incident with him. In the smoking car there was a man who had just invited Tom to go on a fishing trip to Sandusky Bay. He wanted to accept the invitation and talk over details.

George glanced up and down the car to be sure no one was looking, then took out his pocketbook and counted his money. His mind was occupied with a desire not to appear green. Almost the last words his father had said to him concerned the matter of his behavior when he got to the city. "Be a sharp one," Tom Willard had said. "Keep your eyes on your money. Be awake. That's the ticket. Don't let anyone think you're a greenhorn."

After George counted his money he looked out of the window and was surprised to see that the train was still in Winesburg.

The young man, going out of his town to meet the adventure of life, began to think but he did not think of anything very big or dramatic. Things like his mother's death, his departure from Winesburg, the uncertainty of his future life in the city, the serious and larger aspects of his life did not come into his mind.

He thought of little things -- Turk Smollet wheeling boards through the main street of his town in the morning, a tall woman, beautifully gowned, who had once stayed overnight at his father's hotel, Butch Wheeler the lamp lighter of Winesburg hurrying through the streets on a summer evening and holding a torch in his hand, Helen White standing by a window in the Winesburg post office and putting a stamp on an envelope.

The young man's mind was carried away by his growing passion for dreams. One looking at him would not have thought him particularly sharp. With the recollection of little things occupying his mind he closed his eyes and leaned back in the car seat. He stayed that way for a long time and when he aroused himself and again looked out of the car window the town of Winesburg had disappeared and his life there had become but a background on which to paint the dreams of his manhood.

DaneMcCloud
12-01-2010, 12:18 AM
Joe Po has always been the master at writing 8,000 word fluff pieces.

I think that Pioli should be commended for separating the wheat from the chaff of the old regime, but almost all of the impact talent was already in place.

You could make a case for Flowers, DJ, Bowe, Hali, and Charles all making the pro bowl this year.

Top that off with Albert, Waters, and Carr as solid starters and Cox, Richardson, Studebaker, Williams, and even McGraw as rotational players, and the cupboard wasn't nearly as bare as many thought.

And you can add Gilberry and Edwards to that list.

I'm still severely disappointed with the 2009 draft but despite that, the Chiefs are competing for a divisional championship. This team would be so much further along IF Pioli had hit on even one player.

I'll be happy if Pioli can hit on more than 50% of his acquisitions in the future (draft picks and free agency) but IMO, the reason the Chiefs have taken a leap this season, regardless of schedule, is because of the work of Crennel, Pleasant, Thomas and of course, Weis.

Pioli may have put those people in place but they're the reason it's getting done.

DA_T_84
12-01-2010, 12:21 AM
Great read. I love me some JoPo, fa' sho, yo.

DA_T_84
12-01-2010, 12:29 AM
FYI - For those interested in reading Winesburg, Ohio by Sherwood Anderson, you can read it for free here:

http://www.electronpress.com/freebooks2/winesburg_ohio.pdf

BossChief
12-01-2010, 12:40 AM
And you can add Gilberry and Edwards to that list.

I'm still severely disappointed with the 2009 draft but despite that, the Chiefs are competing for a divisional championship. This team would be so much further along IF Pioli had hit on even one player.

I'll be happy if Pioli can hit on more than 50% of his acquisitions in the future (draft picks and free agency) but IMO, the reason the Chiefs have taken a leap this season, regardless of schedule, is because of the work of Crennel, Pleasant, Thomas and of course, Weis.

Pioli may have put those people in place but they're the reason it's getting done.Well, to be fair he seems to have hit on two of those picks in 2009.

The 2nd rounder and 7th rounder.

You cant really judge a draft till 3 years after it happens, so its still possible to have Tyson Jackson turn into a good player and even though that wouldnt be 3 "hits" (due to him being drafted 3rd overall) it would be three players out of that draft that are playing a fairly big role.

Hell, no matter how much some still hate the "big trade" in the 7th round that brought Mr Occonnel here, he is still here and has made some recent contributions.

That makes 2 players that are already playing a big role in the turnaround and another two that are still growing into their roles on the team and one of those (TJ) having lost some significant time to injury after looking pretty good in the opener.

If we can (hopefully) yeild 4 players out of that class, it doesnt seem as big a failure as it originally seemed.

But yeah, we would be beasting on defense right now with my boy Orakpo!

Also, I think that this 2010 class should get almost as much credit as the coaches in this turnaround. When we were missing a c0ouple of the guys from that class, we seemed like we had taken a step back as a team. The contributions of Lewis, Moeaki, DMC and others is not to go unnoticed.

-King-
12-01-2010, 12:54 AM
Joe Po has always been the master at writing 8,000 word fluff pieces.

I think that Pioli should be commended for separating the wheat from the chaff of the old regime, but almost all of the impact talent was already in place.

You could make a case for Flowers, DJ, Bowe, Hali, and Charles all making the pro bowl this year.

Top that off with Albert, Waters, and Carr as solid starters and Cox, Richardson, Studebaker, Williams, and even McGraw as rotational players, and the cupboard wasn't nearly as bare as many thought.

In the offseason weren't you one of the people bitching about our lack of talent and how we so badly needed to add talent? Weren't you one of the people who said Chiefs were a bottom team in terms of talent? Now you're acting like Pioli had an abundance of talent to begin with...
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chiefzilla1501
12-01-2010, 12:56 AM
Joe Po has always been the master at writing 8,000 word fluff pieces.

I think that Pioli should be commended for separating the wheat from the chaff of the old regime, but almost all of the impact talent was already in place.

You could make a case for Flowers, DJ, Bowe, Hali, and Charles all making the pro bowl this year.

Top that off with Albert, Waters, and Carr as solid starters and Cox, Richardson, Studebaker, Williams, and even McGraw as rotational players, and the cupboard wasn't nearly as bare as many thought.

I don't care how many times people discredit it. Coming from a business background, it's extremely important.

The commitment to the "right 53" while criticized on this board has created a culture of discipline, commitment, and accountability. I look at the leaders on the Miami Heat. One guy blasts the coach because they don't let Lebron have fun. Another says the coach doesn't let them just chill. The leadership on the team is phenomenal. The players work their asses off and it shows on the field. They are overachievers--they have some talent, but they play beyond their talent.

That's important because one day, our talent is going to catch up. If we have talent AND overachieve, then look out.

'Hamas' Jenkins
12-01-2010, 12:58 AM
In the offseason weren't you one of the people bitching about our lack of talent and how we so badly needed to add talent? Weren't you one of the people who said Chiefs were a bottom team in terms of talent? Now you're acting like Pioli had an abundance of talent to begin with...
Posted via Mobile Device

Actually, both of those assertions are untrue. This was a great team to take the position for because of the young talent that was here when Herm left. That's something I've said for a long time, and most of that comes from the 2008 draft. That said, Herm hit on all of his 1st rounders, which makes a huge difference as well.

What we didn't have was any depth, and for all intents and purposes, we still don't.

What I find disingenuous is praising the personnel skills of someone that turned a franchise around when almost all of the best players on this team are holdovers.

'Hamas' Jenkins
12-01-2010, 01:02 AM
I don't care how many times people discredit it. Coming from a business background, it's extremely important.

The commitment to the "right 53" while criticized on this board has created a culture of discipline, commitment, and accountability. I look at the leaders on the Miami Heat. One guy blasts the coach because they don't let Lebron have fun. Another says the coach doesn't let them just chill. The leadership on the team is phenomenal. The players work their asses off and it shows on the field. They are overachievers--they have some talent, but they play beyond their talent.

That's important because one day, our talent is going to catch up. If we have talent AND overachieve, then look out.

The deodorant of winning makes a PR claim a lot easier to swallow. The right 53 has little to do with better coaching and the development of young, talented players.

Count Alex's Losses
12-01-2010, 01:06 AM
Actually, both of those assertions are untrue. This was a great team to take the position for because of the young talent that was here when Herm left. That's something I've said for a long time, and most of that comes from the 2008 draft. That said, Herm hit on all of his 1st rounders, which makes a huge difference as well.

What we didn't have was any depth, and for all intents and purposes, we still don't.

What I find disingenuous is praising the personnel skills of someone that turned a franchise around when almost all of the best players on this team are holdovers.

Brilliant post.

Pioli has drafted 0 game changers to this point. Berry is a "maybe." Everyone else has a huge mountain to climb.

NO ONE Pioli has drafted even begins to compare with:

Tamba Hali
Glenn Dorsey
Jamaal Charles
Branden Albert
Dwayne Bowe

And I don't want to hear "well Pioli has only been here for 27 games." Hali, Albert and Bowe were wrecking shit as rookies. Charles was flashing big time as a rookie and turned it on his 2nd year.

Unless Dexter McCluster and Tony Moeaki turn into Percy Harvin and Dallas Clark in the last 5 games, where are Pioli's game-changing impact players? Berry, perhaps, but he was a no brainer.

Oh well, at least Jake O'Connell's arrow is pointing up.

BossChief
12-01-2010, 01:08 AM
Actually, both of those assertions are untrue. This was a great team to take the position for because of the young talent that was here when Herm left. That's something I've said for a long time, and most of that comes from the 2008 draft. That said, Herm hit on all of his 1st rounders, which makes a huge difference as well.

What we didn't have was any depth, and for all intents and purposes, we still don't.

What I find disingenuous is praising the personnel skills of someone that turned a franchise around when almost all of the best players on this team are holdovers.there is some truh to this, but there is also tons of credit due to Pioli for the job he has done across the board since taking over. This is a list of players he either brought in, or brought in the staff that transformed a previous underachiever into a high quality player...both should be credited to the guy that made those things happen:

Haley
Belcher
DJ
Hali
Shaun Smith
Arenas
Berry
Lewis
Moeaki
Crennel
Weis
Pleasant
Lilja
Weigman
Jones
Asamoah
Dorsey
DMC
Bowe (he is borderline as he was alreay a productive when Pioli took over, but he is now a dominant player threatening a NFL record for his position)
Succop

Those guys have played a pretty big role in all of this as well.

stevieray
12-01-2010, 01:12 AM
What I find disingenuous is praising the personnel skills of someone that turned a franchise around when almost all of the best players on this team are holdovers.

sans flowers, all those players game has elevated under his staff.

Count Alex's Losses
12-01-2010, 01:16 AM
sans flowers, all those players game has elevated under his staff.

That's all well and good, but it's not going to sustain the franchise over the long haul.

Pioli's first draft was a D. His second draft looks like a C+. We need a B+ or better next year.

'Hamas' Jenkins
12-01-2010, 01:16 AM
sans flowers, all those players game has elevated under his staff.

That's true, but that's typically what young players do. Improve.

Boss,

I think it's foolish to claim that Bowe was an underachiever before the new regime arrived. Furthermore, Hali was not an underachiever either. They have taken their games to new heights, and that deserves praise, but some of that is just a natural byproduct of putting in your time.

-King-
12-01-2010, 01:22 AM
Pioli is a fraud. Brian Xanders from the Broncos is everything Pioli wishes to be right now.
Posted via Mobile Device

'Hamas' Jenkins
12-01-2010, 01:23 AM
Pioli is a fraud. Brian Xanders from the Broncos is everything Pioli wishes to be right now.
Posted via Mobile Device

Nice rebuttal.

chiefzilla1501
12-01-2010, 01:24 AM
The deodorant of winning makes a PR claim a lot easier to swallow. The right 53 has little to do with better coaching and the development of young, talented players.

Total and utter BS. As a student of organizational behavior, I can assure you there are a bajillion books written on the subject of leadership and cultural fit. And almost every book will tell you you manage out the ones who don't fit and who don't respond to leaders and coaches, and you build up those who bring the best out of others. There are a ton of players who are simply uncoachable and others who are much less capable of being coached. The reason our players respond so well to coaching is that we have a culture of leaders. We have Thomas Jones showing Charles the ropes of the NFL on and off the field. You have Hali treating the gym like it's his second home. You have guys like Cassel who spent countless hours watching film. You have locker room leaders who tactfully get Dwayne Bowe to shut up and focus.

This is a team that took a blowout loss, played their asses off in that second half, and then bounced back next game as if the loss never happened. This is a team that walked into training camp without a single player out of shape. This is a team that cares deeply about winning. They are overachievers. One day talent will catch up with that.

Count Alex's Losses
12-01-2010, 01:25 AM
Pioli is a fraud. Brian Xanders from the Broncos is everything Pioli wishes to be right now.
Posted via Mobile Device

LMAO

I think I've successfully achieved the creation of the 2010 equivalent of "Egoli."

BossChief
12-01-2010, 01:29 AM
Boss,

I think it's foolish to claim that Bowe was an underachiever before the new regime arrived. Furthermore, Hali was not an underachiever either. They have taken their games to new heights, and that deserves praise, but some of that is just a natural byproduct of putting in your time.

I didnt call Bowe an underachiever. I even put a sidenote to his addition to the list because he was productive, but he is a totally new player under Haley and hiring Haley was 100% Piolis call, so he is due the credit for taking Bowes game to the level its at right now where he has a real chance to break or at least threaten the single season record for TD receptions.

2 more TDs and Bowe has equaled his total from his first three years here combined. Credit is surely due.

Same goes for Hali, he was at a new season high at the midway point this year and was playing at a level he hadnt gotten to before. I agree that it wasnt by much as I see it as the players around him allowing him to play in beast mode like he is (though he has seemed to level off the last couple weeks, I wonder if he is hiding an injury) but he has surely stepped his game up and, again, you have to give credit to Haley and ultimately Pioli for demanding so much and making the players seemingly step it up a notch or two.

From the moment Haley got here, he set the tone with the players by not even allowing them to practice till they got into the type of shape he expected of them as professionals.

I dont think that any of these guys would be playing at the level they are playing at if the bar wasnt set almost unrealistically high, as Haley has done.

chiefzilla1501
12-01-2010, 01:30 AM
That's all well and good, but it's not going to sustain the franchise over the long haul.

Pioli's first draft was a D. His second draft looks like a C+. We need a B+ or better next year.

Berry should improve
Moeaki is a productive receiving tight end and a hell of a blocker for our run game
Kendrick Lewis was a terrific pick for the value
Jon Asamoah will likely be a productive starter
Javier Arenas is playing very well in his nickel role and he's getting a shitload more snaps than he gets credit for
Dexter McCluster--say what you want, but he's not a bust. His upside is yet to be seen, but he at least has some impact

There's no way you can call this a C+ draft. 4 of the players are having a considerable impact their rookie season (5 if you want to include McCluster). And the 6th will likely be a starter for many years to come.

stevieray
12-01-2010, 01:35 AM
That's true, but that's typically what young players do. Improve.



that's not always true....you sound like you're giving the credit to the players while marginalizing the coaching.

BossChief
12-01-2010, 01:35 AM
That's all well and good, but it's not going to sustain the franchise over the long haul.

Pioli's first draft was a D. His second draft looks like a C+. We need a B+ or better next year.

Dude, this 2010 draft will go down as a B+ AT WORST...to call any draft that yields 5 potential starters (figuring a nickle corner as a starter in todays NFL game) and a guy that is a threat to score every time he touches the ball a C+ is a joke.

Thats not even counting the contribution Sheffield could have made...go back and watch him ABUSE some guys that are playing very well in the NFL right now during the senior bowl...its a shame we lost him to injury cause we could surely use him right now.

A C+ draft yields 2-3 contributors and only one being a good starter.

This draft was graded as a A+ by many guys in the business.

chiefzilla1501
12-01-2010, 01:35 AM
I didnt call Bowe an underachiever. I even put a sidenote to his addition to the list because he was productive, but he is a totally new player under Haley and hiring Haley was 100% Piolis call, so he is due the credit for taking Bowes game to the level its at right now where he has a real chance to break or at least threaten the single season record for TD receptions.

2 more TDs and Bowe has equaled his total from his first three years here combined. Credit is surely due.

Same goes for Hali, he was at a new season high at the midway point this year and was playing at a level he hadnt gotten to before. I agree that it wasnt by much as I see it as the players around him allowing him to play in beast mode like he is (though he has seemed to level off the last couple weeks, I wonder if he is hiding an injury) but he has surely stepped his game up and, again, you have to give credit to Haley and ultimately Pioli for demanding so much and making the players seemingly step it up a notch or two.

From the moment Haley got here, he set the tone with the players by not even allowing them to practice till they got into the type of shape he expected of them as professionals.

I dont think that any of these guys would be playing at the level they are playing at if the bar wasnt set almost unrealistically high, as Haley has done.

And look at what's going on with the Miami Heat. They have a young disciplinarian coach surrounded by talented douche bags with no concept of team or work ethic. How do you think young players on the Heat respond to Bosh saying the team just wants to chill or Lebron goofing around at practice. Because of these egomaniacs, nobody respects the coach who is trying to create sense of discipline.

Haley's done a good job of setting the tone, but his job is 100 times easier because the front office has largely been uncompromising in terms of bringing leaders in who care enough to be disciplined. Can you imagine Haley being a disciplinarian to a guy like TO or Jamarcus Russell?

BossChief
12-01-2010, 01:39 AM
And look at what's going on with the Miami Heat. They have a young disciplinarian coach surrounded by talented douche bags with no concept of team or work ethic. How do you think young players on the Heat respond to Bosh saying the team just wants to chill or Lebron goofing around at practice. Because of these egomaniacs, nobody respects the coach who is trying to create sense of discipline.

Haley's done a good job of setting the tone, but his job is 100 times easier because the front office has largely been uncompromising in terms of bringing leaders in who care enough to be disciplined. Can you imagine Haley being a disciplinarian to a guy like TO or Jamarcus Russell?

Haley was interviewed for the Dallas job after Parcells and he told JJ that he couldnt win with TO on his team (as he was his position coach)

Could you imagine that Dallas team and all of its talent if JJ had chosen to get rid of TO and make Haley his coach back then?

I bet they would have won a championship by now.

Count Alex's Losses
12-01-2010, 01:41 AM
There's no way you can call this a C+ draft.

Yes you can.

You can't draft complementary players in the second round.

Maybe it's a B if Asamoah turns into a starter.

Count Alex's Losses
12-01-2010, 01:43 AM
a guy that is a threat to score every time he touches the ball a C+ is a joke.


The idea that McCluster is a threat to score every time he touches the ball is the real joke.

Every Chiefs fan is overrating this guy just because he has some quicks and took back one punt against the worst special teams unit ever.

I bet he doesn't score again this year.

-King-
12-01-2010, 01:44 AM
Yes you can.

You can't draft complementary players in the second round.

Maybe it's a B if Asamoah turns into a starter.

How the hell are they complementary players? A nickel corner is damn near a full time starter in the NFL now and so is a slot WR. Everytime Dex stepped out on the field, defenses were forced to go into nickel or dime because of his abilities. That helps the offense immensely. I'd say he's worth a 2nd round pick.
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chiefzilla1501
12-01-2010, 01:45 AM
Haley was interviewed for the Dallas job after Parcells and he told JJ that he couldnt win with TO on his team (as he was his position coach)

Could you imagine that Dallas team and all of its talent if JJ had chosen to get rid of TO and make Haley his coach back then?

I bet they would have won a championship by now.

Exactly.

I think about stuff like that and the fact that Tony Romo chose to go on a vacation before a fucking playoff game. Dallas is a classic example of why stacking your team with talent doesn't guarantee shit. Talent is important of course, but do you really want guys like TO or Romo leading this group of players and setting the example? Are we really going to suggest that Jamarcus Russell or Vince Young are coachable?

I've been involved with a talent planning/recruitment process. There is a ton of science behind it and fit is often weighed in almost as much as talent.

SNR
12-01-2010, 01:46 AM
Question:

Why isn't Tyson Jackson successful?

His work ethic? Character? Was he just never that talented?

Also, shouldn't Pioli have foreseen this if it was an attitude problem?

-King-
12-01-2010, 01:47 AM
The idea that McCluster is a threat to score every time he touches the ball is the real joke.

Every Chiefs fan is overrating this guy just because he has some quicks and took back one punt against the worst special teams unit ever.

I bet he doesn't score again this year.

So he isn't a threat to score when be touches the ball? Is Jamaal a threat to score then?
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chiefzilla1501
12-01-2010, 01:48 AM
Yes you can.

You can't draft complementary players in the second round.

Maybe it's a B if Asamoah turns into a starter.

Really? Because about 75% of teams can't draft a starter, let alone a complementary player. Calling Arenas a complementary player at this juncture is ridiculous. He plays well over half of the defensive snaps. McCluster--we have yet to see, but if he serves in the slot, same deal. If they both play as expected, I wouldn't call them great picks, but you certainly can't call them bad ones.

'Hamas' Jenkins
12-01-2010, 01:50 AM
Total and utter BS. As a student of organizational behavior, I can assure you there are a bajillion books written on the subject of leadership and cultural fit. And almost every book will tell you you manage out the ones who don't fit and who don't respond to leaders and coaches, and you build up those who bring the best out of others. There are a ton of players who are simply uncoachable and others who are much less capable of being coached. The reason our players respond so well to coaching is that we have a culture of leaders. We have Thomas Jones showing Charles the ropes of the NFL on and off the field. You have Hali treating the gym like it's his second home. You have guys like Cassel who spent countless hours watching film. You have locker room leaders who tactfully get Dwayne Bowe to shut up and focus.

This is a team that took a blowout loss, played their asses off in that second half, and then bounced back next game as if the loss never happened. This is a team that walked into training camp without a single player out of shape. This is a team that cares deeply about winning. They are overachievers. One day talent will catch up with that.

Generally it's easy to bounce back when you play two of the worst teams in the NFL back-to-back.

chiefzilla1501
12-01-2010, 01:50 AM
Question:

Why isn't Tyson Jackson successful?

His work ethic? Character? Was he just never that talented?

Also, shouldn't Pioli have foreseen this if it was an attitude problem?

I haven't seen him practice. But my hunch is that the guy doesn't care as much about getting better as he should. That pick as well as most of the 2009 draft was driven by the ridiculously stupid decision to let 2 guys, Pioli and one area scout, control all the personnel decisions. Like Jamarcus Russel, his work ethic should have been a well known fact.

Count Alex's Losses
12-01-2010, 01:51 AM
How the hell are they complementary players?

Don't confuse "complementary" with "not a starter."

When you spend a second round pick on someone it'd be nice if they were a true IMPACT player.

McCluster isn't, and neither is Arenas.

I wouldn't call them great picks, but you certainly can't call them bad ones.

They aren't bad picks.

They just aren't impact players. Pioli damn sure needs to find some.

'Hamas' Jenkins
12-01-2010, 01:51 AM
that's not always true....you sound like you're giving the credit to the players while marginalizing the coaching.

No, I'm marginalizing the player personnel acquisitions.

'Hamas' Jenkins
12-01-2010, 01:53 AM
I haven't seen him practice. But my hunch is that the guy doesn't care as much about getting better as he should. That pick as well as most of the 2009 draft was driven by the ridiculously stupid decision to let 2 guys, Pioli and one area scout, control all the personnel decisions. Like Jamarcus Russel, his work ethic should have been a well known fact.

Or maybe, given that he was never an impact player in college, he just isn't that good.

Count Alex's Losses
12-01-2010, 01:53 AM
So he isn't a threat to score when be touches the ball? Is Jamaal a threat to score then?
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Why are you even making this comparison?

McCluster has proven shit. I think he has one play longer than 20 yards this year.

So far he is a huge gimmick on offense and very disappointing, especially since he hasn't played a game in a month.

chiefzilla1501
12-01-2010, 01:54 AM
Generally it's easy to bounce back when you play two of the worst teams in the NFL back-to-back.

That's interesting, given how many people were saying the team was set for a free-fall. And given that in 2 of the 3 weeks prior, they made 1-2 win teams look like playoff teams.

The reason the Chiefs played much better football against Arizona was that Haley put the pads on the players 3 times that week and forced them to practice like animals. Not a single complaint out of the players. There is no doubt the Chiefs team that showed up against the Cards/Seahawks was one hell of a lot better than the piece of shit that showed up in Denver.

chiefzilla1501
12-01-2010, 01:56 AM
Or maybe, given that he was never an impact player in college, he just isn't that good.

The guy had marginal talent and I've seen nothing that suggests he has the work ethic to get better. With a good work ethic, I believe he could be at least a decent though not great starter. In this case they whiffed on both the talent and the fit. I thought they did on a lot of the 2009 picks, in fact.

'Hamas' Jenkins
12-01-2010, 01:59 AM
That's interesting, given how many people were saying the team was set for a free-fall. And given that in 2 of the 3 weeks prior, they made 1-2 win teams look like playoff teams.

The reason the Chiefs played much better football against Arizona was that Haley put the pads on the players 3 times that week and forced them to practice like animals. Not a single complaint out of the players. There is no doubt the Chiefs team that showed up against the Cards/Seahawks was one hell of a lot better than the piece of shit that showed up in Denver.

Do you realize that the Cards and Seahawks fucking suck? People who thought this team was in for a freefall or a 6-10 finish are dumb as fuck. The schedule is just too damned easy, and the HFA is too good.

-King-
12-01-2010, 01:59 AM
Why are you even making this comparison?

McCluster has proven shit. I think he has one play longer than 20 yards this year.

So far he is a huge gimmick on offense and very disappointing, especially since he hasn't played a game in a month.
So you think it's ridiculous that people say DMC is a threat to score everytime he touches the ball, but yet, JC is different? They are both threats to get a TD everytime they touch the ball.

You're right though, DMC hasn't proven a lot, but when he has had the ball in his hands he has been great. If he can build off of that, then he'll have been a great pick for us.
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'Hamas' Jenkins
12-01-2010, 02:02 AM
The myth of McCluster is becoming almost intolerable. Maybe he becomes the greatest slot receiver of all time, but the reason why teams are in Nickel and Dime when he's on the field is because he's almost always lined up as a WR, and usually when you have 3 WR on the field, you don't see a team's base defense.

That claim, along with the spurious assertion that he was commanding double teams, makes me wonder how many actually watch the game.

And since he's so important to the offense, as someone else argued was the reason behind its "collapse" a few weeks ago, has he picked up the reigns as OC now? Does that explain the offensive output?

-King-
12-01-2010, 02:03 AM
Don't confuse "complementary" with "not a starter."

When you spend a second round pick on someone it'd be nice if they were a true IMPACT player.

McCluster isn't, and neither is Arenas.



They aren't bad picks.

They just aren't impact players. Pioli damn sure needs to find some.Ok who do you think we should have picked? Who are the impact players?
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chiefzilla1501
12-01-2010, 02:04 AM
Don't confuse "complementary" with "not a starter."

When you spend a second round pick on someone it'd be nice if they were a true IMPACT player.

McCluster isn't, and neither is Arenas.



They aren't bad picks.

They just aren't impact players. Pioli damn sure needs to find some.

I don't understand your obsession with superstars. You're not asking for impact players. You're asking for playmaking superstars. Given the free agent class in 2010 and the fact that beyond the first round, it's significantly more difficult to find those, you can't walk into that kind of an offseason and expect to bring in 3 to 4 superstars.

No impact players? I'd say that Wiegmann, Lilja, and Moeaki have improved the run blocking of this team 10-fold. And Asamoah should too. And I'd say that Jones has kept our best playmaker, Charles, fresh and ready to go for the stretch run. I'd say that Arenas, Lewis, and Berry have added severely needed depth. And I'd say that Moeaki and I predict eventually McCluster have added some weapons to our passing game.

We're still missing spots. We knew they would. But as a result of personnel decisions, we are a significantly better running team, we are vastly improved in the secondary, and we have more than one legit receiving option. We piece together a similar draft in 2011 and bring in a few marquee free agents, and this team becomes very dangerous.

BossChief
12-01-2010, 02:04 AM
Don't confuse "complementary" with "not a starter."

When you spend a second round pick on someone it'd be nice if they were a true IMPACT player.

McCluster isn't, and neither is Arenas.



They aren't bad picks.

They just aren't impact players. Pioli damn sure needs to find some.

three things:

1) Calling McCluster a non impact player is foolish to new levels. Seriously, you may want to stop that unless you are trying to try out some kind of reverse mojo type thing.

Ill be willing to make a pretty significant bet that DMC scores again by years end...name your price and terms and lets roll.

2) The way our nickle corners were totally abused last year and allowed seemingly nobodies to have career games should tell you how much of an impact Arenas has had on this defense so far. I would almost argue that he has had an equal impact to that of Berry, if not equal, its damn close. Dudes coverage has been nothing short of terrific...especially for a rooki9e that also returns.

3) Is Bowe actually spitting through his teeth in that gif in your sig? We used to call it "gleeking" in school. It looks like he lets one fly as he starts to break a smile.

I am hitting the sack so if you want to make a little friendly wager on DMC, hit my PM or just rep a post in this thread (pos or neg, it doesn't matter) so I can refere3nce it when I get home tomorrow.

later

Count Alex's Losses
12-01-2010, 02:06 AM
So you think it's ridiculous that people say DMC is a threat to score everytime he touches the ball, but yet, JC is different?

Yes.

McCluster has about 200 yards in six career games.

Charles has two fucking 1,000 yard seasons.

It's ridiculous to compare the two.


You're right though, DMC hasn't proven a lot, but when he has had the ball in his hands he has been great.He has been a gimmick. Percy Harvin is great.

The fantasy of Dexter McCluster far outweighs the reality, which is that he's a pipsqueak who has two incredible plays this year (one on offense) and the rest of the time he's flailing his limbs and dreadlocks and $20 t-shirts every which way he can while picking up five or six yards.

-King-
12-01-2010, 02:07 AM
The myth of McCluster is becoming almost intolerable. Maybe he becomes the greatest slot receiver of all time, but the reason why teams are in Nickel and Dime when he's on the field is because he's almost always lined up as a WR, and usually when you have 3 WR on the field, you don't see a team's base defense.

That claim, along with the spurious assertion that he was commanding double teams, makes me wonder how many actually watch the game.

And since he's so important to the offense, as someone else argued was the reason behind its "collapse" a few weeks ago, has he picked up the reigns as OC now? Does that explain the offensive output?
So DMC is not important to the offense just because they're producing now? Is Vincent Jackson not important just because the Chargers have produced without him? Is Antonio gates not important because the chargers have done well in the weeks he was injured?
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chiefzilla1501
12-01-2010, 02:08 AM
Do you realize that the Cards and Seahawks ****ing suck? People who thought this team was in for a freefall or a 6-10 finish are dumb as ****. The schedule is just too damned easy, and the HFA is too good.

I do realize it. What I also realize is the way you are minimalizing a win and trying to act like the players didn't play significantly better in those games. They beat an easy team, but they beat them convincingly, they beat them by making a hell of a lot mistakes, and they did it despite losing some key players in the process. The bounceback wasn't just about the win.

-King-
12-01-2010, 02:11 AM
Yes.

McCluster has about 200 yards in six career games.

Charles has two fucking 1,000 yard seasons.

how many yards did Charles have his first 6 games?
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BryanBusby
12-01-2010, 02:15 AM
Good to see this thread has also became a retarded bitch fest.

J Diddy
12-01-2010, 02:16 AM
how many yards did Charles have his first 6 games?
Posted via Mobile Device


McClusters problem is not being healthy.
Charles problem was having greasy hands.

J Diddy
12-01-2010, 02:17 AM
Good to see this thread has also became a retarded bitch fest.


This brought me a chuckle..

-King-
12-01-2010, 02:21 AM
McClusters problem is not being healthy.
Charles problem was having greasy hands.

GoChiefs was probably saying the same shit about Charles his rookie year that he's saying about mccluster now. His love of LJ made him think Charles was just a gimmick situational player.
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Count Alex's Losses
12-01-2010, 02:31 AM
GoChiefs was probably saying the same shit about Charles his rookie year that he's saying about mccluster now. His love of LJ made him think Charles was just a gimmick situational player.
Posted via Mobile Device

Charles was brought in to be a backup and he was fine in that role. I never bitched about him once. In fact, he was the third-string RB behind Kolby Smith, so to even compare his situation to McCluster's is ignorant.

When LJ got suspended and Smith broke something for the 50th time, Charles got his chance and...IMMEDIATELY RIPPED OFF 100 YARDS.

I'll be shocked if McGimmick produces 100 yards of total offense in a game this year.

-King-
12-01-2010, 02:34 AM
Anywho who are the impact players you would have taken with our 2nd rnd picks?
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Fruit Ninja
12-01-2010, 03:29 AM
Generally it's easy to bounce back when you play two of the worst teams in the NFL back-to-back.

Not for the Chiefs the past 3 years or so. It was a bounce back game for the other team. Back up QB's throwing for 300 yards 3 touch downs 0 interceptions. Or a Running back running for a career high of 200 yards per game. That was the Chiefs the last 3 years against shitty teams. Its not the case anymore.

We will see what the Chiefs are made of in the next 2 weeks.

Fruit Ninja
12-01-2010, 03:32 AM
Anywho who are the impact players you would have taken with our 2nd rnd picks?
Posted via Mobile Device

Thats a dumb question to ask, because he's just going to pull up the stat sheets and pick random players.

Its shitty that McCluster has an ankle thing. Hopefully he's back because with how Cassel is playing, i think he can get us some yards.

Pioli's way isnt really to build a team into superstars. He just want players that can play help the team win and best of all play together as a unit.

Fritz88
12-01-2010, 04:08 AM
Anyone who thinks we might go after Plexico can kiss that dream goofbye. I said it before, SP will nevet bring anyone with character issues to this team.
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ChiefsNow
12-01-2010, 06:34 AM
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1179410/1/index.htm

Story broken up amongst 8 pages, so I'm not going to copy/paste the full text here.

Figured this would be of interest to us all here.

Wow ! That was an awsome write up . Good find.

bevischief
12-01-2010, 07:48 AM
Interesting read.

tonyetony
12-01-2010, 07:51 AM
Nice read. As long as quits drafting Collin Browns and Tyson Jacksons we should continue to progress.

Dave Lane
12-01-2010, 08:03 AM
Actually, both of those assertions are untrue. This was a great team to take the position for because of the young talent that was here when Herm left. That's something I've said for a long time, and most of that comes from the 2008 draft. That said, Herm hit on all of his 1st rounders, which makes a huge difference as well.

What we didn't have was any depth, and for all intents and purposes, we still don't.

What I find disingenuous is praising the personnel skills of someone that turned a franchise around when almost all of the best players on this team are holdovers.

Coaching that talent into something useful Is a major key here you seem to be overlooking. What does it matter what a players potential is if the head coach or coaches can't get it out of them?

Dave Lane
12-01-2010, 08:05 AM
I think the idea that DV left the cupboard bare was just as foolish an idea. Coaches being unable to coach a player to his potential? Look that up to see Herms hideous smiling mug.

MahiMike
12-01-2010, 08:22 AM
More. I want more Joe Po.

ReynardMuldrake
12-01-2010, 08:27 AM
That was great. Thanks for posting.

Tuckdaddy
12-01-2010, 08:55 AM
Thanks...that was a nice read. In Pioli we trust.

Damn right. He took his lumps last year but this team is learning to play together and they work harder than ever to win. No superstars worrying about their stats or playing time and look at how much better the record is.

Look at Dallas and Cincy. All that star power and look at thier records.

Chief Henry
12-01-2010, 09:10 AM
I said this leading up to yesterday's game and I'll say it now: Sunday's game was huge. And while San Diego's win definitely overshadowed it, I thought it signified something big. In a hostile environment, they took care of business. They appear to be improving as the season progresses, particularly at key positions like QB and WR. I'm a believer in Pioli and his way of doing things.

The coaches are also improving. Cassel and Bowe are being coached up big time and it shows.

Dam, I'm so stoked we got tickets for the DUNGVER game...woot woot :thumb:

chiefzilla1501
12-01-2010, 09:26 AM
Charles was brought in to be a backup and he was fine in that role. I never bitched about him once. In fact, he was the third-string RB behind Kolby Smith, so to even compare his situation to McCluster's is ignorant.

When LJ got suspended and Smith broke something for the 50th time, Charles got his chance and...IMMEDIATELY RIPPED OFF 100 YARDS.

I'll be shocked if McGimmick produces 100 yards of total offense in a game this year.

Give me an f'ing break. Charles is a running back and no one expects mccluster to be charles. Why are you so obsessed with yardage? Know how many 100 yd games harvin had his rookie year? 1. Know how many reggie bush had in 2009? None. Know how many welker has had minus moss? None.

The past two weeks, the underneath checkdown has been there. In arizona, we were horrible at 3rd and long and often checked down. They need mccluster. I'd like to se a repeat of the jacksonville performance where he converted on several key third downs. If his role for 2010 is to help us improve us on third down, or to open opportunities for innocvative playcalling that's okay. If his role is a harvin or bush role its an important role, even if its not going to get you 1000 yards.

Pasta Giant Meatball
12-01-2010, 09:29 AM
Anywho who are the impact players you would have taken with our 2nd rnd picks?
Posted via Mobile Device

Golden Tate :whackit:!!!

Brainiac
12-01-2010, 09:32 AM
Generally it's easy to bounce back when you play two of the worst teams in the NFL back-to-back.
Uh, one of those "worst teams in the NFL" was in first place in their division. Yes, that division is the weakest in the NFL, but to say that Seattle is one of the worst teams in the NFL is a pretty lame attempt to discredit the way the Chiefs dominated them.

mesmith31
12-01-2010, 09:50 AM
"...there's only one way for me to win and be proud of winning."

You had me at Springsteen

-King-
12-01-2010, 09:59 AM
Thats a dumb question to ask, because he's just going to pull up the stat sheets and pick random players.


He can't even do it. Most of the players with 2nd round grades haven't aren't impact players at all. GoChiefs is talking out of his ass.
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TheGuardian
12-01-2010, 10:24 AM
God damn Go Chiefs has turned into the king of ass clowns over the past few weeks. Surpassing even OnTheVagPath58, Mecca, Hamas at his worst, and Dane on meth.

Stinger
12-01-2010, 10:42 AM
God damn Go Chiefs has turned into the king of ass clowns over the past few weeks. Surpassing even OnTheVagPath58, Mecca, Hamas at his worst, and Dane on meth.

Eh, he tries to be contrarian but people who been here awhile see through it and don't give it much play.

Short Leash Hootie
12-01-2010, 10:58 AM
wait...

did someone just say Pioli's 2nd draft looks like a C+??!?

hahahahaha

Ok...

Berry has played just about every snap...McCluster was having a solid year before injury...Arenas handles return duties and plays a pretty good nickel and has had a nice blitz or two on the year...Moeaki has played very well for a rookie all season long...Asomoah has filled in nicely on the line...and Lewis has been a starting safety when healthy...

BUT YEAH

C+!

Jesus CHRIST GoChiefs is a damn attention whore moron this year.

Short Leash Hootie
12-01-2010, 11:03 AM
oh and our 2009 draft has 22 TD's, 4 INT's and is a part of the culture change that has us at 7-4 and 1st place in the AFC West...

but hey...

if you guys want me to, once again, post some of your FAVORITE TEAM'S DRAFTS from 2009...I will. You guys want to see the Ravens draft again? The Packers? Who? The Bengals? The Jets?

I'll tell you right now the 2009 draft was brutal...and we came out of it with Matt Cassel, Tyson Jackson, Jake O'Connell and Ryan Succop...with a few other stiffs like Donald Washington (a mecca favorite) who will probably never pan out...

So...if Matt Cassel continues leading this team to wins and division titles and keeps taking giant steps forward like he has this season...

I hate to say it DUMBFUCKS...but our 2009 draft would be categorized as EPIC WIN...

which, once again, would make you drafturbator fools look like total idiots...(but what's new?)

but hey! HAMAS WANTED MACLIN AT #3! YEP! MACLIN! WHO WOULD HAVE BEEN A BIGGER REACH THAN DHB AT #7! BUT WHAT AN EASY THING TO DO! CALL FOR A GUY WHO HAS ALREADY PLAYED A YEAR AND THEN TELL EVERYONE HOW GREAT IT WOULD HAVE BEEN IF WE TOOK HIM AT #3! YEAH HAMAS! JIMMY CLAUSEN AT #1 FOR LIFE! V! GHOLST! 4 LYFE!

Bill Lundberg
12-01-2010, 11:07 AM
Joe Po has always been the master at writing 8,000 word fluff pieces.

I think that Pioli should be commended for separating the wheat from the chaff of the old regime, but almost all of the impact talent was already in place.

You could make a case for Flowers, DJ, Bowe, Hali, and Charles all making the pro bowl this year.

Top that off with Albert, Waters, and Carr as solid starters and Cox, Richardson, Studebaker, Williams, and even McGraw as rotational players, and the cupboard wasn't nearly as bare as many thought.

I agree, the thing I often question is how productive would these guys be with the old coaching staff? I think coaching has a HUGE part to do with the turnaround. Herm seemed to believe in just throwing the young guys out there and letting them learn by playing. I don't know that there was a lot of teaching going on.

In my opinion, Pioli's greatest accomplishment so far is in the Head Coach he chose and the coaching staff he's managed to acquire due to past relationships.

Detoxing
12-01-2010, 11:09 AM
wait...

did someone just say Pioli's 2nd draft looks like a C+??!?

hahahahaha

Ok...

Berry has played just about every snap...McCluster was having a solid year before injury...Arenas handles return duties and plays a pretty good nickel and has had a nice blitz or two on the year...Moeaki has played very well for a rookie all season long...Asomoah has filled in nicely on the line...and Lewis has been a starting safety when healthy...

BUT YEAH

C+!

Jesus CHRIST GoChiefs is a damn attention whore moron this year.


GoChiefs is just trying to regurgitate all of the shit that Hamas is spewing. He's just trying to be associated with that group of posters, but he has no real grasp of what they're even saying.

So in turn, his posts just come out as a bunch of misconstrued garbage. It's kinda funny actually.

It's like a 10 year old boy who heard his daddy talking politics and then tries to mimic what he heard to his friends.

Short Leash Hootie
12-01-2010, 11:13 AM
dude GoChiefs is what he is...he's the biggest flip flopper I've ever seen...he tries to go against the grain as much as possible and even when he's proven wrong, knows he's wrong...he'll keep on going just to get that attention he used to miss out on...

I'm glad I don't think like that...I'm glad I'm an objective person who cheers for what I see...rather than for my "board rep"...

I have been one of the BIGGEST Cassel bashers on the board and off the board all year long...I hated him. Loathed him...told all of my friends (who don't care) all about it...

but even I can eat my crow on this one...because the dude has heart...he wants to be great...he's a leader...and he's turned a corner.

Hence the reason I started that thread where I predicted last week would be his week...the dude has arrived...and we have a QB.

beach tribe
12-01-2010, 11:20 AM
Everyone of us should be thanking and praising Clark for hiring this guy.

I'm totally behind this FO, and coaching staff.

-King-
12-01-2010, 11:23 AM
I'll have to eat crow also if Cassel turns out to be good. But it will be hilarious to see all the drafturbators reactions. They've been wrong about just about every quarterback the past couple years. Saying Jay Cutler is a franchise qb, saying Freeman would be a bust, saying Bradford would be a bust, saying Sanchez will be a franchise qb(he's not so far but he could be I'll admit), and that Clausen should be a #1 pick.

So it wouldn't shock me if they were wrong about cassel either. But to their credit, I will have been wrong also. Eh atleast I wasn't loud and douchey about it.
Posted via Mobile Device

Short Leash Hootie
12-01-2010, 11:28 AM
well the good thing is they'll never be able to ruin another offseason...

they know they have to be objective now instead of how they were last season...where what they "knew" was gospel and anyone who disagreed was a stupid "true fan" who didn't know anything and couldn't understand what they were watching...

because apparently it was the other way around

-King-
12-01-2010, 11:31 AM
Remember during the off season OTWP was discrediting Jamaal Charles because of the weakness of the defenses we played? ROFL Those guys make me chuckle.
Posted via Mobile Device

Short Leash Hootie
12-01-2010, 11:33 AM
Remember during the off season OTWP was discrediting Jamaal Charles because of the weakness of the defenses we played? ROFL Those guys make me chuckle.
Posted via Mobile Device

of course he was...

and now Jamaal Charles is CLEARLY the best RB in the NFL...well him or Foster but I'm taking Jamaal...

and it's a shame Jamaal doesn't get more goalline work because he can power it in better than Jones I guarantee it...

beach tribe
12-01-2010, 11:36 AM
The bashers are just Fn hilarious.
They predict a 5-6 win season, and when we blast through that, we still suck because our opponents weren't great.
Pioli still sucks because our best players were from the last regime, but without the players that have been plugged in around them, we are still a four win team.
Not to mention the fact that one of the best coaching staffs in the NFL now roam our sidelines because of him.
We've got a damn solid FS now, that we picked in the 5TH Fn round!
Talk about the Tyson Jackson pick all you want, but the player evaluations of the bashers, have been absolutely horrendous, and if their trend of projected player development continues, Tyson Jackson will end up being a Richard Seymore clone. Because players never develop you know.
After all, Hali sucks ass, and should have just been cut.
And just for the record. Matt Cassel looks 1000 times better than Mark Sanchez

philfree
12-01-2010, 12:54 PM
well the good thing is they'll never be able to ruin another offseason...

they know they have to be objective now instead of how they were last season...where what they "knew" was gospel and anyone who disagreed was a stupid "true fan" who didn't know anything and couldn't understand what they were watching...

because apparently it was the other way around

You can't really believe that? LOL

PhilFree:arrow:

'Hamas' Jenkins
12-01-2010, 01:47 PM
Not for the Chiefs the past 3 years or so. It was a bounce back game for the other team. Back up QB's throwing for 300 yards 3 touch downs 0 interceptions. Or a Running back running for a career high of 200 yards per game. That was the Chiefs the last 3 years against shitty teams. Its not the case anymore.

We will see what the Chiefs are made of in the next 2 weeks.

This is true. There has been definite progress. What is a matter of debate is the extent of the progress and whether or not some of the pieces in place are long term solutions, stopgaps, or part of the problem.

'Hamas' Jenkins
12-01-2010, 01:47 PM
Coaching that talent into something useful Is a major key here you seem to be overlooking. What does it matter what a players potential is if the head coach or coaches can't get it out of them?

No. In fact I specifically mentioned it as worthy of praise.

'Hamas' Jenkins
12-01-2010, 01:52 PM
oh and our 2009 draft has 22 TD's, 4 INT's and is a part of the culture change that has us at 7-4 and 1st place in the AFC West...

but hey...

if you guys want me to, once again, post some of your FAVORITE TEAM'S DRAFTS from 2009...I will. You guys want to see the Ravens draft again? The Packers? Who? The Bengals? The Jets?

I'll tell you right now the 2009 draft was brutal...and we came out of it with Matt Cassel, Tyson Jackson, Jake O'Connell and Ryan Succop...with a few other stiffs like Donald Washington (a mecca favorite) who will probably never pan out...

So...if Matt Cassel continues leading this team to wins and division titles and keeps taking giant steps forward like he has this season...

I hate to say it DUMBFUCKS...but our 2009 draft would be categorized as EPIC WIN...

which, once again, would make you drafturbator fools look like total idiots...(but what's new?)

but hey! HAMAS WANTED MACLIN AT #3! YEP! MACLIN! WHO WOULD HAVE BEEN A BIGGER REACH THAN DHB AT #7! BUT WHAT AN EASY THING TO DO! CALL FOR A GUY WHO HAS ALREADY PLAYED A YEAR AND THEN TELL EVERYONE HOW GREAT IT WOULD HAVE BEEN IF WE TOOK HIM AT #3! YEAH HAMAS! JIMMY CLAUSEN AT #1 FOR LIFE! V! GHOLST! 4 LYFE!

Yup, our 2009 Draft is an epic win. You heard it here first.

You, who said earlier yesterday that you still weren't sold on Matt Cassel, now promote him as a franchise guy as well as one of the people who helped bring in a culture change, and GC is a flip-flopper?

GC is a flip-flopper, and you are lamenting me for liking Clausen (when you said he was better than Bradford) and Gholston (who you specifically mentioned you wanted to draft).

Maclin was projected higher than Heyward Bey at #7, and was routinely looked at as a top-15 pick. Hell, he was a much higher rated prospect than Tyson Jackson, and it turns out, he can actually play.

There's your daily dose of attention. Now sprinkle some parmesan on your fail.

DaneMcCloud
12-01-2010, 02:27 PM
Talk about the Tyson Jackson pick all you want, but the player evaluations of the bashers, have been absolutely horrendous, and if their trend of projected player development continues, Tyson Jackson will end up being a Richard Seymore clone. Because players never develop you know.

You've been stating this since the day he was drafted and to date, he's been average at best and awful at worst.

I hope that someday he's an adequate starter but to date, he's been an epic failure. If the Chiefs had taken Oher, Orapko, Maclin, Harvin, Davis or Matthews (to name a few), this team would be further along in their rebuilding process.

Tyson Jackson, to date, has been a bust. Only time will tell if that changes and but that's far from a certainty.

Short Leash Hootie
12-01-2010, 03:13 PM
I don't remember where I said I liked Clausen better than Bradford or when I said I'd take Gholston on the Chiefs...

As for Cassel...of course I was down on him...but I keep an open mind when I watch the Chiefs...and the way he has conducted himself even with all the criticism...he's like the opposite of Derek Anderson...and he's really proved himself to me, and he should be proving himself to everyone...instead, we still have OTWP being a complete dickhole (go figure) at least you've STFU about the whole thing...

I mean...I didn't just make that Cassel thread because I thought it was going to be funny...I really thought he was going to have a money game on the road @ Seattle (a very tough place to play) and then continue for the rest of the season trying to will this team to the postseason.

Chiefnj2
12-01-2010, 03:25 PM
Pioli and Belichik were always about the "team". They were the first to introduce their "team" into the Super Bowl. Prior to that it was always one team's offense and the others defense.

-King-
12-01-2010, 04:04 PM
Is it sad that our #3 overall bust did more his rookie year than Hamas' #1 overall draft pick has done his whole career?

Can you imagine how dominant we'd be right now with the players Hamas wanted? Clausen, Mike Bell, Vernon Gholston, Bruce Campbell and Mardy Gilyard. Fuck yeah!!

Shit just look at the gems he drafted! http://chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=224527 They are really lighting the league up this year.

zonachief
12-01-2010, 05:50 PM
That's all well and good, but it's not going to sustain the franchise over the long haul.

Pioli's first draft was a D. His second draft looks like a C+. We need a B+ or better next year.

a c+????!

Berry, Lewis, Moeaki All legit starters...Arenas is a solid nickle corner. Also him and DMC are adding to the return game....

C+...Esta loca C+...

DaWolf
12-01-2010, 06:19 PM
Actually, both of those assertions are untrue. This was a great team to take the position for because of the young talent that was here when Herm left. That's something I've said for a long time, and most of that comes from the 2008 draft. That said, Herm hit on all of his 1st rounders, which makes a huge difference as well.

What we didn't have was any depth, and for all intents and purposes, we still don't.

What I find disingenuous is praising the personnel skills of someone that turned a franchise around when almost all of the best players on this team are holdovers.

While some of that is true, you also have to take into account:
1) These guys were kept around as pieces of the puzzle. Pioli likely wasn't going to walk into a job which was 100% devoid of talent. Remember, there was talk of him taking this job in part because he was really high on some of the young pieces we had here.

2) He seemingly has brought in the right coaches to maximize the playing levels of some of these underachievers. While much young talent was in place, a lot of it was underachieving until buttons started being pushed. Guys like Bowe and DJ aren't just having better seasons this year because they've got a few years under their belts. A lot of that is coaching.

In fact, you can probably say that the biggest difference between this year and last year, aside from better offseason moves, is that the coaching has taken hold and is a lot better on both sides of the ball.

I certainly don't think this team is perfect or ready for prime time yet by any means. But I appreciate that the guy is also not seemingly satisfied with where we are either. In the past, King Carl would be out there patting his back right about now. The one thing I can't accuse Pioli of is being only interested in putting butts in the seats. I actually buy that he and Haley are solely focused on building a great team. Now whether they wind up doing it or not over the next few years, we'll see...

tk13
12-01-2010, 06:58 PM
I have to say that's a good point. If Carl was the GM we'd be seeing the 112th article about how he's turned the Chiefs around, again, and all is good and sunny with the world.

beach tribe
12-01-2010, 07:01 PM
You've been stating this since the day he was drafted and to date, he's been average at best and awful at worst.

I hope that someday he's an adequate starter but to date, he's been an epic failure. If the Chiefs had taken Oher, Orapko, Maclin, Harvin, Davis or Matthews (to name a few), this team would be further along in their rebuilding process.

Tyson Jackson, to date, has been a bust. Only time will tell if that changes and but that's far from a certainty.

I have only stated that he COULD become Seymore like, which is no more absurd than saying he will be Sims like. Until he gets, two and half seasons worth of games under his belt, I'm not going to declare him anything.
Until then, I'm going reserve judgement.

Chiefaholic
12-01-2010, 07:23 PM
Brilliant post.

Pioli has drafted 0 game changers to this point. Berry is a "maybe." Everyone else has a huge mountain to climb.

NO ONE Pioli has drafted even begins to compare with:

Tamba Hali
Glenn Dorsey
Jamaal Charles
Branden Albert
Dwayne Bowe

And I don't want to hear "well Pioli has only been here for 27 games." Hali, Albert and Bowe were wrecking shit as rookies. Charles was flashing big time as a rookie and turned it on his 2nd year.

Unless Dexter McCluster and Tony Moeaki turn into Percy Harvin and Dallas Clark in the last 5 games, where are Pioli's game-changing impact players? Berry, perhaps, but he was a no brainer.

Oh well, at least Jake O'Connell's arrow is pointing up.

My God... You're ate up with the dumbass today. Last years draft was one of the Chiefs best in a LONG time. Yet, Pioli hasn't drafted any "game-changers"

TheGuardian
12-01-2010, 07:25 PM
My God... You're ate up with the dumbass today. Last years draft was one of the Chiefs best in a LONG time. Yet, Pioli hasn't drafted any "game-changers"

Dude I know. It's hard to even describe how fucking stupid GC has been for weeks now. It's like he had a football lobotomy.

Marcellus
12-01-2010, 07:38 PM
Charles was brought in to be a backup and he was fine in that role. I never bitched about him once. In fact, he was the third-string RB behind Kolby Smith, so to even compare his situation to McCluster's is ignorant.

When LJ got suspended and Smith broke something for the 50th time, Charles got his chance and...IMMEDIATELY RIPPED OFF 100 YARDS.

I'll be shocked if McGimmick produces 100 yards of total offense in a game this year.

He did that week 1.

D.McCluster 94-yard punt return for TD - 02:03 left in the 2nd quarter.

He also had 9 yards receiving totaling 103 yards.

Count Alex's Losses
12-01-2010, 07:46 PM
He did that week 1.

D.McCluster 94-yard punt return for TD - 02:03 left in the 2nd quarter.

He also had 9 yards receiving totaling 103 yards.

Offense, not all-purpose.

tk13
12-01-2010, 07:51 PM
And while we're at it, if you take away of Charles long runs, he's really not that good of a player.

DA_T_84
12-01-2010, 07:52 PM
Offense, not all-purpose.

Yeah, because offensive touchdowns are worth more points than special teams ones.

Count Alex's Losses
12-01-2010, 08:04 PM
Yeah, because offensive touchdowns are worth more points than special teams ones.

Why are you people so friggin' dense when it comes to McGimmick?

If he isn't a productive offensive threat, I don't care WHAT he does as a kick returner, he wasn't worth the pick.

KCinNY
12-01-2010, 08:07 PM
Nice read, but Bruce Springsteen sucks.

zonachief
12-01-2010, 08:09 PM
Why are you people so friggin' dense when it comes to McGimmick?

If he isn't a productive offensive threat, I don't care WHAT he does as a kick returner, he wasn't worth the pick.

its not dense, guy...its called "we have seen him play a total of six games so we are not sure if the pick was a good one or not, but we are going to root for him and praise his progress...." whewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww

Marcellus
12-01-2010, 08:16 PM
Why are you people so friggin' dense when it comes to McGimmick?

If he isn't a productive offensive threat, I don't care WHAT he does as a kick returner, he wasn't worth the pick.

You have blinders on. No wonder Gif Horse is your user name now.

zonachief
12-01-2010, 08:19 PM
marcellus. best sig ever!

DA_T_84
12-01-2010, 08:20 PM
Why are you people so friggin' dense when it comes to McGimmick?

If he isn't a productive offensive threat, I don't care WHAT he does as a kick returner, he wasn't worth the pick.

Exactly what mah' buddy said. It's only been six games, and of the things we do know:

- he has super elite speed
- he can catch the ball
^ from these, we can infer that he will be YAC machine, assuming he has two steps.

Furthermore, his skill set allows him to play more than one position, making him versatile.

I say the jury is out. That doesn't make me dense.

-King-
12-01-2010, 09:06 PM
Why are you people so friggin' dense when it comes to McGimmick?

If he isn't a productive offensive threat, I don't care WHAT he does as a kick returner, he wasn't worth the pick.

3rd time.... What "impact player" should we have drafted there that would have been worth the pick?

'Hamas' Jenkins
12-01-2010, 09:08 PM
While some of that is true, you also have to take into account:
1) These guys were kept around as pieces of the puzzle. Pioli likely wasn't going to walk into a job which was 100% devoid of talent. Remember, there was talk of him taking this job in part because he was really high on some of the young pieces we had here.

2) He seemingly has brought in the right coaches to maximize the playing levels of some of these underachievers. While much young talent was in place, a lot of it was underachieving until buttons started being pushed. Guys like Bowe and DJ aren't just having better seasons this year because they've got a few years under their belts. A lot of that is coaching.

In fact, you can probably say that the biggest difference between this year and last year, aside from better offseason moves, is that the coaching has taken hold and is a lot better on both sides of the ball.

I certainly don't think this team is perfect or ready for prime time yet by any means. But I appreciate that the guy is also not seemingly satisfied with where we are either. In the past, King Carl would be out there patting his back right about now. The one thing I can't accuse Pioli of is being only interested in putting butts in the seats. I actually buy that he and Haley are solely focused on building a great team. Now whether they wind up doing it or not over the next few years, we'll see...

I agree with all of this.

It's obvious that the Tim Krumries and Clancy Pendergasts of the world weren't the answer. There's no question that Herm's jabronies retarded the development of a number of our players. Bringing in better coaches is part of a GM's job, and to this point, it seems like Pioli has done an exception job in that regard, even if some of the choices were derivative. However, from the standpoint of player personnel, there still seems to be something sorely lacking.

Marcellus
12-01-2010, 09:10 PM
I agree with all of this.

It's obvious that the Tim Krumries and Clancy Pendergasts of the world weren't the answer. There's no question that Herm's jabronies retarded the development of a number of our players. Bringing in better coaches is part of a GM's job, and to this point, it seems like Pioli has done an exception job in that regard, even if some of the choices were derivative. However, from the standpoint of player personnel, there still seems to be something sorely lacking.

Another simple point is there isn't another decent 2nd year regime (probably ever) that doesn't have most of it's better player from the previous regime.

1st and 2nd year players are rarely the best on the team and never make up the "core". Maybe 1 or 2, if 1 is a QB or RB. It's common sense.

'Hamas' Jenkins
12-01-2010, 09:16 PM
Another simple point is there isn't another decent 2nd year regime (probably ever) that doesn't have most of it's better player from the previous regime.

1st and 2nd year players are rarely the best on the team and never make up the "core". Maybe 1 or 2, if 1 is a QB or RB. It's common sense.

Then perhaps they don't deserve all the credit, either.

Marcellus
12-01-2010, 09:19 PM
Then perhaps they don't deserve all the credit, either.

All depends on what you do with the talent.

See Dallas, and the Vikes this year.

Also as stated, many players are having break out years this year under this staff. That can't be ignored.

chiefzilla1501
12-01-2010, 09:20 PM
I agree with all of this.

It's obvious that the Tim Krumries and Clancy Pendergasts of the world weren't the answer. There's no question that Herm's jabronies retarded the development of a number of our players. Bringing in better coaches is part of a GM's job, and to this point, it seems like Pioli has done an exception job in that regard, even if some of the choices were derivative. However, from the standpoint of player personnel, there still seems to be something sorely lacking.

Well, we all know 2009 was a disaster and a half.

But in 2010, given that we didn't spend a whole lot of money and that the free agent market was pretty dry, we made out really well. If Pioli's history in New England is any indication, we'll probably spend a bit of money to bring in some good free agents this offseason. You also have to factor in that if, as you mentioned in a previous post, that a goal is depth, that this is a process that takes quite a bit of time. The Chiefs definitely got deeper this offseason. They just need to plug in a few key starters. With a successful draft and maybe 2 or so big free agent moves, I don't see why we couldn't have a good starting lineup with quality depth.

This offseason, we brought in a starting TE, one solid starting safety and one potentially solid starting safety, one nickel back, a starting Guard and a future starting Guard, a slot receiver, a solid rotational or starting DE, and two stopgap players at Center and Running Back. If the Chiefs replicate 2010, they'll have at least 8 more solid contributors. That's definitely progress.

'Hamas' Jenkins
12-01-2010, 09:20 PM
All depends on what you do with the talent.

See Dallas, and the Vikes this year.

Also as stated, many players are having break out years this year under this staff. That can't be ignored.

It's not being ignored. There's a thing called nuance that some times helps explain situations such as this.

DaneMcCloud
12-01-2010, 09:24 PM
Another simple point is there isn't another decent 2nd year regime (probably ever) that doesn't have most of it's better player from the previous regime.

You've said this before and you're still incorrect.

The Atlanta Falcons of 2007 were devoid of talent at most positions. New GM Tom Dimitroff drafted extremely well and brought in free agents and the team went 11-5. Three seasons later, they're considered an elite team.

The Detroit Lions under Millen were atrocious and devoid of talent. While their record hasn't shown improvement due to injuries, Schwartz and Mayhew have done a complete makeover of their roster and it's MUCH more talented than when they took over.

The same could be said about the Bucs. Dominick and Morris took over an old team and gutted it. This year, they're starting SEVEN rookies and while they're not elite, they are 7-4.

Your "point", once again, is hogwash.

'Hamas' Jenkins
12-01-2010, 09:29 PM
But the Bucs have JAAAASH Freeman!!

-King-
12-01-2010, 09:30 PM
You've said this before and you're still incorrect.

The Atlanta Falcons of 2007 were devoid of talent at most positions. New GM Tom Dimitroff drafted extremely well and brought in free agents and the team went 11-5. Three seasons later, they're considered an elite team.

The Falcons only had 3 new starters when Dimitroff took over.

chiefzilla1501
12-01-2010, 09:32 PM
But the Bucs have JAAAASH Freeman!!

Fair is fair. Given the amount of shit the Chiefs have gotten for beating nobodies, the teams the Bucs have beaten are even worse.

'Hamas' Jenkins
12-01-2010, 09:33 PM
The Falcons only had 3 new starters when Dimitroff took over.

Who happen to be their best defensive player, franchise QB, and left tackle.
He also brought in one of the best RBs in the league.

They also hit on Kroy Bierman and Thomas Decoud.

That was an amazing draft.

'Hamas' Jenkins
12-01-2010, 09:33 PM
Fair is fair. Given the amount of shit the Chiefs have gotten for beating nobodies, the teams the Bucs have beaten are even worse.

Absolutely.

DaneMcCloud
12-01-2010, 09:34 PM
But the Bucs have JAAAASH Freeman!!

LMAO

The funny thing about Freeman to me is that the dude was a legitimate first round QB and he's slowly but surely reaching Franchise QB status. But, the K-State fans and alums barely, if ever, backed the guy.

Yet, we've had numerous threads and posts over the years about how Reesing and Daniels should be first rounders.

ROFL

'Hamas' Jenkins
12-01-2010, 09:38 PM
LMAO

The funny thing about Freeman to me is that the dude was a legitimate first round QB and he's slowly but surely reaching Franchise QB status. But, the K-State fans and alums barely, if ever, backed the guy.

Yet, we've had numerous threads and posts over the year about how Reesing and Daniels should be first rounders.

ROFL

Dude, I watched Josh Freeman play and I hated him as a prospect. He was a dipshit, a classic example of a guy who had it all in shorts and nothing in pads. He wasn't even that good in high school. Whatever the Bucs have done to develop him, however, is fantastic.

DaneMcCloud
12-01-2010, 09:42 PM
Dude, I watched Josh Freeman play and I hated him as a prospect. He was a dipshit, a classic example of a guy who had it all in shorts and nothing in pads. He wasn't even that good in high school. Whatever the Bucs have done to develop him, however, is fantastic.

I think that Coach Prince was a turd. Fortunately, Raheem Morris spent a year on the K-State staff and saw the guy's true nature.

What I'm about to state is pure speculation but I think it's safe to say that if Freeman had played under Snyder, the guy would have been an absolute beast and would have competed with Stafford as the number one overall pic.

As you know, college players are often a reflection of their coach and I think Freeman's doppleganger was Ron Prince (without the ridiculous contract).

Marcellus
12-01-2010, 09:48 PM
You've said this before and you're still incorrect.

The Atlanta Falcons of 2007 were devoid of talent at most positions. New GM Tom Dimitroff drafted extremely well and brought in free agents and the team went 11-5. Three seasons later, they're considered an elite team.

The Detroit Lions under Millen were atrocious and devoid of talent. While their record hasn't shown improvement due to injuries, Schwartz and Mayhew have done a complete makeover of their roster and it's MUCH more talented than when they took over.

The same could be said about the Bucs. Dominick and Morris took over an old team and gutted it. This year, they're starting SEVEN rookies and while they're not elite, they are 7-4.

Your "point", once again, is hogwash.

I call BS.

TB is not an exception they are in year 2 just like KC with the same record. They may have a few more newer players but it's not a huge difference.

Atlanta did draft a QB that is a core player which fits my quote but Atlanta had 1 good season then a bad one in year 2 going 8-8 .
Turner was a FA in 2008 who didn't perform in 2009.

Lets look at your great examples of proving me wrong:
2008 Falcons

Offense-
Turner - FA
Norwood - leftover
Roddy -leftover
Jenkins- leftover

Eric Coleman Left over
Lawyer Milloy- you know
Kieth Brooking - you know
John Abraham - You know
Micheal Boley - you know
Dominique Foxworth- See a pattern

All their top tacklers, sack leaders etc...The o-line and d-line is mostly leftovers.

2010 Buccaneers

http://www.nfl.com/teams/tampabaybuccaneers/depthchart?team=TB

Take a look here and tell me how many of their team are 2 year or less players.

You are wrong.

DaneMcCloud
12-01-2010, 09:51 PM
You are wrong.

You're wrong and it's clear that you haven't watched the Bucs, Falcons or Lions play, nor do you know ANYTHING about their respective rosters.

Furthermore, the Falcons were decimated by injuries last year, yet still finished 8-8.

You need to watch more NFL football because clearly, you don't know what the fuck is happening in the league outside of KC.

As per usual.

'Hamas' Jenkins
12-01-2010, 09:53 PM
You're wrong and it's clear that you haven't watch the Bucs, Falcons or Lions play, nor do you know ANYTHING about their respective rosters.

Furthermore, the Falcons were decimated by injuries last year, yet still finished 8-8.

You need to watch more NFL football because clearly, you don't know what the fuck is happening in the league outside of KC.

As per usual.

Falcons actually finished 9-7. That team is going to be a force for years.

Marcellus
12-01-2010, 09:56 PM
You're wrong and it's clear that you haven't watch the Bucs, Falcons or Lions play, nor do you know ANYTHING about their respective rosters.

Furthermore, the Falcons were decimated by injuries last year, yet still finished 8-8.

You need to watch more NFL football because clearly, you don't know what the **** is happening in the league outside of KC.

As per usual.


That is weak sauce Dane. Atlanta is not in year 2 now and their first 2 years were filled with player from the previous regime. You can't prove otherwise because it isn't true.

Tampa is KC.

You talk like you know facts, your opinion which is what it is, is wrong.

Go ahead trying to dispute it though.

DaneMcCloud
12-01-2010, 09:57 PM
Falcons actually finished 9-7. That team is going to be a force for years.

Thanks for the correction.

And "Marcellus" is showing his ass again.

And it's just as ugly as before.

Marcellus
12-01-2010, 09:57 PM
Falcons actually finished 9-7. That team is going to be a force for years.

I am not nor would I argue that point, but to say they blew up in 2 years with all new talent is total BS.

Marcellus
12-01-2010, 09:59 PM
Thanks for the correction.

And "Marcellus" is showing his ass again.

And it's just as ugly as before.

Whatever Dane, you called me out for making a point and tried to refute it and are incorrect.

Atlanta didn't become a force overnight with all new talent and TB is basically the same exact team as KC except Cassel wasn't drafted by KC.

DaneMcCloud
12-01-2010, 10:00 PM
That is weak sauce Dane. Atlanta is not in year 2 now and their first 2 years were filled with player from the previous regime. You can't prove otherwise because it isn't true.

Tampa is KC.

You talk like you know facts, your opinion which is what it is, is wrong.

Go ahead trying to dispute it though.

I don't need to dispute anything, especially when you're fucking full of shit.

Simply stating at the Falcons of 2009 were the same team as 2007 is fucking dumb, as is stating the Bucs of 2010 are the same team as 2008.

Key players were brought into each franchise, whether it be Turner, Ryan, Baker, etc. and for Tampa, Freeman and the rest.

But go ahead an try to dispute that Tampa is starting SEVEN rookies because it would be laughable.

The difference between you and me, Asswipe, is that I'm knowledgeable about this shit and follow it everyday.

You talk out of your ass, then try to use the internet in your defense.

Kiss my ass, you fucking douchelord.

Pablo
12-01-2010, 10:03 PM
Eh, he tries to be contrarian but people who been here awhile see through it and don't give it much play.Pretty much this.

I don't think that GC even believes half of what he types; he's just trying to stir the pot.

Marcellus
12-01-2010, 10:10 PM
I don't need to dispute anything, especially when you're ****ing full of shit.

Simply stating at the Falcons of 2009 were the same team as 2007 is ****ing dumb, as is stating the Bucs of 2010 are the same team as 2008.

Key players were brought into each franchise, whether it be Turner, Ryan, Baker, etc. and for Tampa, Freeman and the rest.

But go ahead an try to dispute that Tampa is starting SEVEN rookies because it would be laughable.

The difference between you and me, Asswipe, is that I'm knowledgeable about this shit and follow it everyday.

You talk out of your ass, then try to use the internet in your defense.

Kiss my ass, you ****ing douchelord.

Mike Smith took over in 2008 and had a good year then a decent one with mostly players from the previous regime.

Morris took over in 2009 and they played poorly and TB has had a good 2010 like KC with a lot of young players but mostly players left from before.

Where am I wrong again saying very few 2nd year regimes don't have their core players left from the previous regime?

Let's say for sake of argument TB fits your profile, name another team besides TB that has recently made a big jump with a huge number of new players?

You understand the term very few? So we are going to take rare exceptions and make that the norm?

Yes you are a genious and know so much more than me.

I'm the one who doesn't get it and talks out my ass. OK.

DaneMcCloud
12-01-2010, 10:10 PM
Whatever Dane, you called me out for making a point and tried to refute it and are incorrect.

Atlanta didn't become a force overnight with all new talent and TB is basically the same exact team as KC except Cassel wasn't drafted by KC.

Fuck you. You're a fucking dumbass that doesn't know fucking shit.

And why are you comparing the Chiefs to the Bucs?

Are you seriously stating the Bucs aren't starting seven rookies or that their QB isn't a second year player?

You're really fucking stupid. I cannot fathom how you can run your own business with the level of intelligence you've shown in this forum since you're joined.

Are you asking for government bailout funds yet?

Marcellus
12-01-2010, 10:13 PM
**** you. You're a ****ing dumbass that doesn't know ****ing shit.

And why are you comparing the Chiefs to the Bucs?

Are you seriously stating the Bucs aren't starting seven rookies or that their QB isn't a second year player?

You're really ****ing stupid. I cannot fathom how you can run your own business with the level of intelligence you've shown in this forum since you're joined.

See the post above yours your holiness.

Also please note the lack of **** or names used in my post. I don't need them to try to make a point. I just use facts.

DaneMcCloud
12-01-2010, 10:14 PM
See the post above yours your holiness.

Also please note the lack of **** or names used in my post. I don't need them to try to make a point. I just use facts.

Raheem Morris is in his second year, Dumbass.

But go ahead and name all of the starters for the Falcons from 2007 that started in 2009.

:rolleyes:

I think talking out of your ass is a second language.

Oh, and thanks for citing the Lions as well.

ROFL

Go to bed, Dummy. You obviously need your rest.

Marcellus
12-01-2010, 10:16 PM
Raheem Morris is in his second year, Dumbass.

But go ahead and name all of the starters for the Falcons from 2007 that started in 2009.

:rolleyes:

I think talking out of your ass is a second language.

Oh, and thanks for citing the Lions as well.

ROFL

Go to bed, Dummy. You obviously need your rest.


Morris took over in 2009 and they played poorly and TB has had a good 2010 like KC with a lot of young players but mostly players left from before.


Still calling me a dumbass when you can't read? When did Morris get hired? 2009 making this his second season. Wow.

Yes the lions are tearing it up.

DaneMcCloud
12-01-2010, 10:19 PM
Still calling me a dumbass when you can't read? When did Morris get hired? 2009 making this his second season. Wow.

Yes the lions are tearing it up.

Another simple point is there isn't another decent 2nd year regime (probably ever) that doesn't have most of it's better player from the previous regime.

1st and 2nd year players are rarely the best on the team and never make up the "core". Maybe 1 or 2, if 1 is a QB or RB. It's common sense.

You're fucking stupid beyond belief.

stevieray
12-01-2010, 10:23 PM
this forum is becoming one dimensional.

DaneMcCloud
12-01-2010, 10:25 PM
this forum is becoming one dimensional.

Becoming?

Marcellus
12-01-2010, 10:28 PM
You're ****ing stupid beyond belief.

You continually argue the poster not the post, you haven't said one thing to back up your opinion even though I have backed mine.

This is why many people believe it is hard or next to impossible to have a football discussion with you.

You continually complain that this place has gone downhill due to lack of football "talk" yet you argue without meaningful information to back your claims and think calling people stupid makes you correct.

Yes TB has a 2nd year QB and is starting many rookies. KC has many rookies contributing as well and is one of the most rookie dependent teams in the league which has been pointed out multiple times by national media. As I said, KC and TB are very similar yet you use TB as an argument to dispel what is going on in KC.

I haven't made one ridiculous or outlandish claim in this whole discussion yet you act like you just can't believe it.

You need to take a step back and realize just because someone doesn't agree doesn't mean they are wrong.

DaneMcCloud
12-01-2010, 10:39 PM
You continually argue the poster not the post, you haven't said one thing to back up your opinion even though I have backed mine.

This is why many people believe it is hard or next to impossible to have a football discussion with you.

That is hysterical. While I think you're a fucking joke of a poster, you spew so much fanboy bullshit that 99% of what you state is complete and utter nonsense.

You continually complain that this place has gone downhill due to lack of football "talk" yet you argue without meaningful information to back your claims and think calling people stupid makes you correct.

Bullshit,

You're the guy that stated on several occasions, just as you did in this thread, that there are no second year regimes that are having success without a majority of talent from the prior regime.

That's fucking bullshit. I gave you the Falcons, Lions and Bucs as an example, especially the Bucs, with a second year QB, first year RB and SEVEN rookie starters. You apparent no NOTHING about their team or their starters. Same with Detroit and Atlanta.

Yes TB has a 2nd year QB and is starting many rookies. KC has many rookies contributing as well and is one of the most rookie dependent teams in the league which has been pointed out multiple times by national media. As I said, KC and TB are very similar yet you use TB as an argument to dispel what is going on in KC.

Where did I say anything, positive or negative, about the Chiefs in regards to your bullshit statement?

Oh, that's right: I DIDN'T.

This is just yet another case of "Marcellus" pulling shit out of his ass because he knows absolutely NOTHING about the NFL or any football team outside of Kansas City.

I haven't made one ridiculous or outlandish claim in this whole discussion yet you act like you just can't believe it.



Except for your claims, which I've continually disputed. You should really give up.

And as far as arguing "the poster", you could change your username tomorrow and you'd still be a fucking clueless dumbass.

Marcellus
12-01-2010, 10:48 PM
Not going to bother to quote all your post.

1. Atlanta did not have huge succes their first 2 years with a ton of new players. You haven't shown anything to prove that and showed you a huge list of leftover players on that team.
2. The original comment I made was in regard to KC talent being based off of leftover players. As I stated and still believe that is typical.
3. Tampa may be younger than KC and may be an exception but the exception proves the rule. It's still an exception. I used the word rarely.
4. The Lions are better than their usual selves but still have not officially broken through. Sorry they are not in the playoff hunt nor do they look imminently close. Yes improved but that's not a massive suprise. The team has had how many high round picks the last 10 years? How could they not improve at some point?
5. Good night.

DaneMcCloud
12-01-2010, 10:52 PM
Not going to bother to quote all your post.

1. Atlanta did not have huge succes their first 2 years with a ton of new players. You haven't shown anything to prove that and showed you a huge list of leftover players on that team.
2. The original comment I made was in regard to KC talent being based off of leftover players. As I stated and still believe that is typical.
3. Tampa may be younger than KC and may be an exception but the exception proves the rule. It's still an exception. I used the word rarely.
4. The Lions are better than their usual selves but still have not officially broken through. Sorry they are not in the playoff hunt nor do they look imminently close. Yes improved but that's not a massive suprise. The team has had how many high round picks the last 10 years? How could they not improve at some point?
5. Good night.

So, you conceded that both Tampa Bay and Detroit are far more talented in year two of their new regimes but contend that your statement is still correct?

:shake:

And many (if not all) of Matt Millen's high draft choices are gone from Detroit, which further weakens your argument.

Short Leash Hootie
12-02-2010, 12:49 AM
give me 5 players who have more impact in 2010 for their teams that were 2nd round picks than Dexter...

Just curious.

Count Alex's Losses
12-02-2010, 01:08 AM
give me 5 players who have more impact in 2010 for their teams that were 2nd round picks than Dexter...

Just curious.

This isn't hard.

Pat Angerer - 11 games, 6 starts, 61 tackles, 1 sack, 1 FF

Brandon Spikes - 11 games, 8 starts, 54 tackles

Toby Gerhard - 162 yards rushing, 144 yards receiving, 1 TD

Daryl Washington - 11 games, 8 starts, 52 tackles, 1 sack

Zane Beadles - 11 games, 9 starts at tackle/guard

Lamarr Houston - 11 games, 10 starts, 24 tackles, 3 sacks, 1 FF

Rob Gronkowski - 11 games, 8 starts, 25 catches, 310 yards, 6 TD

Koa Misi - 11 games, 8 starts, 24 tackles, 3.5 sacks

Arellious Benn - 16 catches, 195 yards, 2 TD

TJ Ward - 11 starts, 87 tackles, 7 PDEF, 2 INT, 1 FF

Oh, and Javier Arenas, who was a pick that people actually hated MORE than McCluster, but so far has proven to be much more valuable, especially since he can, you know, actually STAY ON THE FIELD.

-King-
12-02-2010, 01:08 AM
give me 5 players who have more impact in 2010 for their teams that were 2nd round picks than Dexter...

Just curious.

I've already asked 3 times in this thread. They can't answer it.
Posted via Mobile Device

Short Leash Hootie
12-02-2010, 01:10 AM
This isn't hard.

Pat Angerer - 11 games, 6 starts, 61 tackles, 1 sack, 1 FF

Brandon Spikes - 11 games, 8 starts, 54 tackles

Toby Gerhard - 162 yards rushing, 144 yards receiving, 1 TD

Daryl Washington - 11 games, 8 starts, 52 tackles, 1 sack

Zane Beadles - 11 games, 9 starts at tackle/guard

Lamarr Houston - 11 games, 10 starts, 24 tackles, 3 sacks, 1 FF

Rob Gronkowski - 11 games, 8 starts, 25 catches, 310 yards, 6 TD

Koa Misi - 11 games, 8 starts, 24 tackles, 3.5 sacks

Arellious Benn - 16 catches, 195 yards, 2 TD

TJ Ward - 11 starts, 87 tackles, 7 PDEF, 2 INT, 1 FF

Oh, and Javier Arenas, who was a pick that people actually hated MORE than McCluster, but so far has proven to be much more valuable, especially since he can, you know, actually STAY ON THE FIELD.

half of those are super debatable...if not all of them...

and Dex would have probably had just as much impact as any had he stayed healthy...

injuries happen

Count Alex's Losses
12-02-2010, 01:13 AM
half of those are super debatable...if not all of them...


:LOL:

McCluster has had two decent games, and then he broke something. Because he's tiny.

It's not debatable. All of those players have had better rookie seasons.

Whether they are better picks remains to be seen but, shit...sure would be nice to have Koa Misi right now. Arellious Benn would be a very nice prospect at WR instead of "running back who motions to the slot once in awhile."

Short Leash Hootie
12-02-2010, 01:19 AM
Arrelious Benn, for one, HAS NOT had more impact than Dexter McCluster.

Why are you such a fucking hater now?

Fuck off dude.

Short Leash Hootie
12-02-2010, 01:20 AM
dude goes out of his way to bash guys on the Chiefs...or picks by Pioli...

what does that remind everyone of?

Count Alex's Losses
12-02-2010, 01:20 AM
Arrelious Benn, for one, HAS NOT had more impact than Dexter McCluster.

Why are you such a fucking hater now?

Fuck off dude.

It would seem to me he has been more productive as a wide receiver, no?

I bet they're not even CLOSE in year two.

BossChief
12-02-2010, 01:22 AM
I cant wait to see what Dexter does in this current offense with the way Bowe, Charles and most importantly Cassel are playing.

Short Leash Hootie
12-02-2010, 01:28 AM
I cant wait to see what Dexter does in this current offense with the way Bowe, Charles and most importantly Cassel are playing.

This.

These dumbfucks want to tell us how much numbers don't mean...

well Dexter's impact has nothing to with his numbers...he's a football player through and through and a nightmare for coordinators to gameplan against...he can run and he can catch...

but whatever...

GoChiefs the new drafturbator wannabe....good job dude!

BossChief
12-02-2010, 01:39 AM
Mark this post:

If/When we make the playoffs, DMC will play a big role in winning (or at least keeping us in the game) once there.

Stack 8 in the box to stop our running game...bracket Bowe to take away Cassels favorite target...yeah, go ahead and think a linebacker can handle DMC and/or Moeaki.

Those two had one big thing in common, they played HUGE in the biggest games.

Direckshun
12-02-2010, 01:41 AM
I like McCluster as a guy, but look at Sproles, a tiny player who is much, much stockier.

After producing for a couple years, he slid off bigtime.

That's what happens to tiny players in the NFL, with almost zero exceptions.

And if that's what we drafted with virtually a first round selection... well, shit.

BossChief
12-02-2010, 01:48 AM
I think the idea that DV left the cupboard bare was just as foolish an idea.
I cant believe I missed this the first time through.

This is just dumb as hell.
:LOL:

McCluster has had two decent games, and then he broke something. Because he's tiny.
He didnt brake anything because of his size, to indicate that getting a high ankle sprain as a result of a players size is fairly laughable.

I like McCluster as a guy, but look at Sproles, a tiny player who is much, much stockier.

After producing for a couple years, he slid off bigtime.

That's what happens to tiny players in the NFL, with almost zero exceptions.

And if that's what we drafted with virtually a first round selection... well, shit.

Sproles OWNED in the playoffs because he is a similar matchup nightmare.

Frosty
12-02-2010, 06:04 AM
This isn't hard.

Pat Angerer - 11 games, 6 starts, 61 tackles, 1 sack, 1 FF

Brandon Spikes - 11 games, 8 starts, 54 tackles

Toby Gerhard - 162 yards rushing, 144 yards receiving, 1 TD

Daryl Washington - 11 games, 8 starts, 52 tackles, 1 sack

Zane Beadles - 11 games, 9 starts at tackle/guard

Lamarr Houston - 11 games, 10 starts, 24 tackles, 3 sacks, 1 FF

Rob Gronkowski - 11 games, 8 starts, 25 catches, 310 yards, 6 TD

Koa Misi - 11 games, 8 starts, 24 tackles, 3.5 sacks

Arellious Benn - 16 catches, 195 yards, 2 TD

TJ Ward - 11 starts, 87 tackles, 7 PDEF, 2 INT, 1 FF

Oh, and Javier Arenas, who was a pick that people actually hated MORE than McCluster, but so far has proven to be much more valuable, especially since he can, you know, actually STAY ON THE FIELD.

I would have liked Washington or Misi at that spot. The vast majority of the board, however, wanted Clausen or Golden Tate. Clausen is debatable but Tate hasn't been very good so far.

chiefzilla1501
12-02-2010, 07:30 AM
I like McCluster as a guy, but look at Sproles, a tiny player who is much, much stockier.

After producing for a couple years, he slid off bigtime.

That's what happens to tiny players in the NFL, with almost zero exceptions.

And if that's what we drafted with virtually a first round selection... well, shit.

Maybe, maybe not. No doubt there's injury risk, but given that McCluster is primarily a receiver vs. a running back, it's unlikely he sees the kind of wear and tear Sproles had.

-King-
12-02-2010, 11:54 AM
Isn't GoChiefs the same guy who's been talking shit about Cassel by saying his stats don't mean shit? So....now he's posting stats?


Oh...ok...

beach tribe
12-02-2010, 12:14 PM
Isn't GoChiefs the same guy who's been talking shit about Cassel by saying his stats don't mean shit? So....now he's posting stats?


Oh...ok...

He's softening everyone up for his inevitable flip over to "Cassel is deh franchise!!"

-King-
12-02-2010, 12:17 PM
He's softening everyone up for his inevitable flip over to "Cassel is deh franchise!!"

ROFL True.
Posted via Mobile Device

The Bad Guy
12-02-2010, 12:38 PM
:LOL:

McCluster has had two decent games, and then he broke something. Because he's tiny.


So high ankle sprains are only allowed on bigger athletes? That injury had NOTHING to do with his size.

DaneMcCloud
12-02-2010, 01:17 PM
So high ankle sprains are only allowed on bigger athletes? That injury had NOTHING to do with his size.

Recent pro athletes with high ankle sprains

* Colt McCoy[5] NFL (2010)
* Jake Delhomme[6] NFL (2010)
* Seneca Wallace[7] NFL (2010)
* Dez Bryant NFL (2010)
* Ian Kinsler MLB (2010)
* Michael Leighton NHL (2010)
* Bradley Bussell WWE/ECW Circuit (1/2010)
* Pantelis Palioudakis PTM (2010)
* Dexter McCluster NFL (2010)
* René Bourque NHL (2009)
* Ryan Miller[8] NHL (2009)
* LaDainian Tomlinson NFL (2009)
* Matt Schaub NFL (2009)
* Marc Colombo NFL (2009)
* Tracy McGrady[9] NBA (2009)
* Milan Lucic[10] NHL (2009)
* Michael Turner NFL (2009)
* Bob Sanders [11] NFL (2008)
* Sidney Crosby[12] NHL (2008)
* Brian Rolston[13] NHL (2008)
* Joffrey Lupul[14] NHL (2008)
* Tom Brady[15] NFL (2008)
* Dirk Nowitzki[16] NBA (2008)
* Kyle Orton NFL (2008)
* Brian Westbrook NFL (2007)*Marc-André Fleury[12] NHL (2007)
* Terrell Owens[17] NFL (2007)
---------------------------------------------


Considering most rookies hit a "wall" around the 12th-14th game, McCluster should be extremely fresh at this point in the season.

A healthy and fresh McCluster for the final five games of the regular season may be a difference maker for the Chiefs.

Regardless of the "haters", I most certainly welcome his return because he only makes the team better.

Detoxing
12-02-2010, 01:29 PM
It would seem to me he has been more productive as a wide receiver, no?

I bet they're not even CLOSE in year two.

Stop trying to be a fucking troll. Go masturbate to some highlight reels or something. You think you have some sort of point but every time you post you just look more and more like an idiot.