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Count Alex's Losses
12-20-2010, 11:37 AM
He could break off 2K in our system, that's what.

• Jamaal Charles (http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/players/8850/)(notes) (http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/players/8850/news)

The Kansas City Chiefs (http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/teams/kan/) running back had 14 touches for 153 total yards and a touchdown, and helped ease the load for the returning Matt Cassel (http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/players/7406/)(notes) (http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/players/7406/news). His 80-yard run late in the fourth quarter – on the Chiefs’ first snap after the Rams pulled within 20-13 – locked the game up. Here’s a wicked stat: Charles has 1,961 rushing yards in his last 17 games. And he did that on only 297 carries. That’s a staggering average of 6.6 yards per carry.

Rain Man
12-20-2010, 11:40 AM
So if he broke Larry Johnson's record with 417 carries, he could go for 2,692 yards. That'd be cool.

Chief Henry
12-20-2010, 11:41 AM
Not to be a douche, but what if D. Bowe had not dropped so many passes this season ?

OnTheWarpath58
12-20-2010, 11:57 AM
Not to be a douche, but what if D. Bowe had not dropped so many passes this season ?

Yep, all those drops.

Where is he on this list?

http://stats.washingtonpost.com/fb/leaders.asp?range=NFL&type=receiving&rank=232&year=

Count Alex's Losses
12-20-2010, 12:14 PM
Here's an interesting stat - 30 percent of Charles' carries have gone for a first down.

The only guy who's better is Chris Ivory (32) and he has 130 carries.

Nobody in the top 30 in carries/game comes close to Charles. Next closest is 27.4.

Mr. Plow
12-20-2010, 12:16 PM
Yep, all those drops.

Where is he on this list?

http://stats.washingtonpost.com/fb/leaders.asp?range=NFL&type=receiving&rank=232&year=


Well.....he's uhhhh....ummmm.....hey look - a rabbit......

kaplin42
12-20-2010, 12:21 PM
Not to be a douche, but what if D. Bowe had not dropped so many passes this season ?

Then we would be 11-3 at least, and have division locked up and the conference wondering if they have snow gear for when they come through AH in January.

KCrockaholic
12-20-2010, 12:22 PM
Yep, all those drops.

Where is he on this list?

http://stats.washingtonpost.com/fb/leaders.asp?range=NFL&type=receiving&rank=232&year=

I have to wonder which plays they consider "drops" and which ones they give him a free pass on?

Because he's dropped more than 5 passes this year. It would be closer to about 10-12.

chiefzilla1501
12-20-2010, 12:23 PM
You're talking about a complete hypothetical.

A good bulk of extra carries would be short yardage situations that he doesn't get today, which would bring his per carry average down significantly. And there's no guarantee that he could consistently pull off big runs between 20-30 carries or get worn down by midseason.

Given that he's been banged up this season even in a platoon role, safe to say that putting him well over 300 carries is overkill.

beer bacon
12-20-2010, 12:23 PM
Yep, all those drops.

Where is he on this list?

http://stats.washingtonpost.com/fb/leaders.asp?range=NFL&type=receiving&rank=232&year=

Must have had too many drops and it disqualified him from that list. That is how it works right?

Chief Henry
12-20-2010, 12:27 PM
Yep, all those drops.

Where is he on this list?

http://stats.washingtonpost.com/fb/leaders.asp?range=NFL&type=receiving&rank=232&year=

I read the list. I'm wondering how they judge a dropped pass ? His name should be on that list.

Count Alex's Losses
12-20-2010, 12:27 PM
A good bulk of extra carries would be short yardage situations that he doesn't get today, which would bring his per carry average down significantly.

This isn't accurate. Over the last 17 games, has Charles been carrying the ball a lot in short-yardage? No!

It would be different if you were talking about an extrapolation, but we're talking about 17 actual games.

I don't think 297 carries would kill Charles. That's 17 carries over 17 games, and right now he's averaging 14.5 carries per game.

Chief Henry
12-20-2010, 12:27 PM
I have to wonder which plays they consider "drops" and which ones they give him a free pass on?

Because he's dropped more than 5 passes this year. It would be closer to about 10-12.

pretty much

beer bacon
12-20-2010, 12:29 PM
I'm guessing we'd see a lot more leg cramps.

LaChapelle
12-20-2010, 12:32 PM
Those mercury soled turf shoes he had on Sunday were cool
I need a pair for traction in the harsh mid-Missouri winters

Brainiac
12-20-2010, 12:33 PM
The Chiefs are giving Jamaal Charles exactly the right amount of carries.

He is an awesome talent. I think he's probably the best runner in the game right now. But do any of you REALLY think that he's the best running back in the history of the NFL?

Really?

He has such a great YPC because of the way the Chiefs use him. Picking up Thomas Jones in the offseason was a great move by Pioli.

OnTheWarpath58
12-20-2010, 12:37 PM
Some of you are pathetic.

ROFL

That link was thrown around all last year to back up the claim that Bowe dropped a lot of passes. (13, IIRC)

Now that link is completely worthless.

Comical.

Rausch
12-20-2010, 12:37 PM
The Chiefs are giving Jamaal Charles exactly the right amount of carries.

THIS.



For now.




Come the playoffs I want that protected motherfucker in there every single play...

KCrockaholic
12-20-2010, 12:37 PM
I read the list. I'm wondering how they judge a dropped pass ? His name should be on that list.

He has 5 according to this website, which is wrong.....

Rausch
12-20-2010, 12:38 PM
Some of you are pathetic.

ROFL

That link was thrown around all last year to back up the claim that Bowe dropped a lot of passes. (13, IIRC)

Now that link is completely worthless.

Comical.

How?

Bowe drops a $3itload of passes...

KCrockaholic
12-20-2010, 12:38 PM
THIS.



For now.




Come the playoffs I want that protected mother****er in there every single play...

I think this was weis' plan all along. Carefully use JC. Get to the playoffs, and pound that MFer 25 times a game and make everyone pay.

DrRyan
12-20-2010, 12:38 PM
Yep, all those drops.

Where is he on this list?

http://stats.washingtonpost.com/fb/leaders.asp?range=NFL&type=receiving&rank=232&year=

I have to question the validity of this list. This list claims that Stevie Johnson has only dropped 8 passes all year? He dropped 5 passes in the one game that he dropped the game winner in the endzone in overtime.

KCrockaholic
12-20-2010, 12:39 PM
Some of you are pathetic.

ROFL

That link was thrown around all last year to back up the claim that Bowe dropped a lot of passes. (13, IIRC)

Now that link is completely worthless.

Comical.

I know profootballfocus was thrown around a lot.

But you gotta pay for that shit now....But they were very accurate. I've never seen that link before, but it is wrong.

penguinz
12-20-2010, 12:41 PM
The whole 'what if' scenario is just ignorant. You can use this to create any scenario you want.

Direckshun
12-20-2010, 12:44 PM
Charles would also be injured.

chiefzilla1501
12-20-2010, 12:47 PM
This isn't accurate. Over the last 17 games, has Charles been carrying the ball a lot in short-yardage? No!

It would be different if you were talking about an extrapolation, but we're talking about 17 actual games.

I don't think 297 carries would kill Charles. That's 17 carries over 17 games, and right now he's averaging 14.5 carries per game.

Jamaal Charles:
Goal line carries = 8 for 30 yards (about 4 yards per carry)
3rd and <3 = 6 carries for 7 yards (1.2 yards per carry)
7% of total carries

Arian Foster:
Goal line carries = 30 for 62 yards (about 2 yards per carry)
3rd and <3 = 15 carries for 65 yards (4.3 yards per carry)
16% of total carries

I love me some Jamaal Charles, but let's not pretend that his YPC aren't very much padded by the fact that he's not asked to do more short yardage situations. And given that he twice cramped up yesterday and that there have been 2-3 games where he was limping around and was then limited in action, it's safe to say that a heavy workload on a consistent basis is not a good idea for him.

Short Leash Hootie
12-20-2010, 12:53 PM
I honestly remember Bowe dropping 5 passes this year...tops

and that's counting the one in Oakland which would have been a pretty remarkable catch

B_Ambuehl
12-20-2010, 12:53 PM
Speaking of Charles what's the deal with his injury after that long run yesterday? Was anything said about it after the game?

Short Leash Hootie
12-20-2010, 12:54 PM
just cramps

now go find that link for us

OnTheWarpath58
12-20-2010, 12:58 PM
I honestly remember Bowe dropping 5 passes this year...tops

and that's counting the one in Oakland which would have been a pretty remarkable catch

Same here.

LaChapelle
12-20-2010, 12:59 PM
He has been showing frustration as of late after the play is over
win or lose
He had been just popping up and moving on -something's amiss

Rausch
12-20-2010, 01:00 PM
I honestly remember Bowe dropping 5 passes this year...tops


You must not handle your liquor as well as I do...

Short Leash Hootie
12-20-2010, 01:01 PM
and I watch a ton of football and a ton of RedZone and you see all of the star receivers drop passes all of the time...

T.O. (one of the greatest ever) has been dropping passes his entire career...

I've seen Miles Austin drop some of the easiest balls thrown this year...

and ChiefsPlanet darling receiver Santonio Holmes had a perfectly thrown ball hit him in the helmet in the end zone two weeks ago...a catch a 9 year old could have made 10 times out of 10...

OnTheWarpath58
12-20-2010, 01:01 PM
I know profootballfocus was thrown around a lot.

But you gotta pay for that shit now....But they were very accurate. I've never seen that link before, but it is wrong.

Nope.

This Washington Post link was used time and time again. It was used by the "he has a ton of drops" crowd, and it was used by the "13 drops is less than 1 a game - a lot of great WR's are on that list" crowd. Everyone used it.

It was good enough last year, now some of you are claiming it's inaccurate?

Get the fuck outta here.

Dude's improved by leaps and bounds.

B_Ambuehl
12-20-2010, 01:02 PM
just cramps

now go find that link for us

Is that what they said? It's bullshit. You don't treat cramps with ice. He grabbed his hamstring on that play.

OnTheWarpath58
12-20-2010, 01:03 PM
and I watch a ton of football and a ton of RedZone and you see all of the star receivers drop passes all of the time...

T.O. (one of the greatest ever) has been dropping passes his entire career...

I've seen Miles Austin drop some of the easiest balls thrown this year...

and ChiefsPlanet darling receiver Santonio Holmes had a perfectly thrown ball hit him in the helmet in the end zone two weeks ago...a catch a 9 year old could have made 10 times out of 10...

Exactly.

Some of us have been making this argument for years.

There are always elite WR's at or near the top of that list. Comes with the territory.

Short Leash Hootie
12-20-2010, 01:04 PM
I saw Larry Fitz drop a pivotal TD pass 3 weeks ago, too...

saw Jerry Rice drop the easiest TD pass ever against KC when he was with Oakland back in the day as well...

drops happen...

Bowe has been stellar this year...outside of the Indianapolis game.

Short Leash Hootie
12-20-2010, 01:06 PM
Is that what they said? It's bullshit. You don't treat cramps with ice. He grabbed his hamstring on that play.

well that's what they said

but hey...i'm sure you can find a quote from norv about it

JTagg7754
12-20-2010, 01:07 PM
I have to question the validity of this list. This list claims that Stevie Johnson has only dropped 8 passes all year? He dropped 5 passes in the one game that he dropped the game winner in the endzone in overtime.

Who's to determine what's a "drop" and what isn't?? There is no solid definition of the term ergo stats like this are generally useless if you are to take them so literally.

It's like when Bey was said to be on the highest portion of the "targets" list. Who's to tell me what a "target" is?? If Campbell is taking his time w/ his reads, maybe sits down for a cup of coffee if he has time, then sees nothing b/c he's as blind as a bat when throwing downfield, then throws one 10 feet over the head of Bey who was the closest WR to the ball, does that count as a "target" for Bey?

Bowe has dropped quite a few passes this season and I haven't even watch 1/2 of your games.

OnTheWarpath58
12-20-2010, 01:08 PM
Looked like he cramped up to me.

Same as when he went down earlier in the game. They were pulling his foot back from the toes, which indicates cramps.

I never saw him grab his hamstring. Could have missed it, though. Looked like a calf cramp the first time.

Anyway, The Star thinks it was cramps. Dude wanted to go back in, and was jogging off the field after the game.

I highly doubt it's anything more than cramps.

http://www.kansascity.com/2010/12/19/2531527/charles-comes-through-at-key-time.html

Bowser
12-20-2010, 01:10 PM
Looked like he cramped up to me.

Same as when he went down earlier in the game. They were pulling his foot back from the toes, which indicates cramps.

I never saw him grab his hamstring. Could have missed it, though. Looked like a calf cramp the first time.

Anyway, The Star thinks it was cramps. Dude wanted to go back in, and was jogging off the field after the game.

I highly doubt it's anything more than cramps.

http://www.kansascity.com/2010/12/19/2531527/charles-comes-through-at-key-time.html

This is good.

Short Leash Hootie
12-20-2010, 01:11 PM
yeah

Pioli has a source at Washington Post keeping Bowe off of that list!

yes!

OnTheWarpath58
12-20-2010, 01:13 PM
yeah

Pioli has a source at Washington Post keeping Bowe off of that list!

yes!

LMAO

B_Ambuehl
12-20-2010, 01:16 PM
Watch the long run again and you'll see him grab his hamstring as he goes down. Then he was getting iced on the sideline. The ice would tend to dispell the claim of cramps. We'll see.

chiefzilla1501
12-20-2010, 01:23 PM
I saw Larry Fitz drop a pivotal TD pass 3 weeks ago, too...

saw Jerry Rice drop the easiest TD pass ever against KC when he was with Oakland back in the day as well...

drops happen...

Bowe has been stellar this year...outside of the Indianapolis game.

TO is gonna drop his share of passes. As are star receivers.

The issue is that Bowe does it at the worst possible times.

You can name probably less than a handful of drops Jerry Rice had throughout his career during times when they were desperately calling on him to make a play. He dropped one in Oakland that would have sealed the game, dropped a TD pass in Indy that may have swung the pendulum in Indy's favor, dropped one this week in a drive where it was clear they needed to buy some positive momentum for Cassel.

We talk a lot about wanting Cassel to be a gamer. We know Bowe can produce in big chunks. I've just seen very little in his career that leads me to believe he is even close to reliable when it matters most.

thurman merman
12-20-2010, 01:24 PM
THIS.



For now.




Come the playoffs I want that protected mother****er in there every single play...

Yes. Nothing will kill me more than to see this team lose a close playoff game to the tune of 30 carries for 40 yards by Thomas Jones.

Valiant
12-20-2010, 01:27 PM
Yep, all those drops.

Where is he on this list?

http://stats.washingtonpost.com/fb/leaders.asp?range=NFL&type=receiving&rank=232&year=

So by that list he has under 6 drops for the season?? I would to know how they quantify drops, he might not still be in the top of the list but he has more then 6 drops..

edit.Damn posted multiple times..

As for Charles if we make the playoffs I would love to see him and Thomas Jones reverse their carries and him workhorse to some playoff wins.. But regardless this season has been a huge success..

OnTheWarpath58
12-20-2010, 01:29 PM
So by that list he has under 6 drops for the season?? I would to know how they quantify drops, he might not still be in the top of the list but he has more then 6 drops..

He has 5.

OnTheWarpath58
12-20-2010, 01:30 PM
Anyone who would like to refute the stat, feel free to show some evidence.

RINGLEADER
12-20-2010, 01:30 PM
Not to be a douche, but what if D. Bowe had not dropped so many passes this season ?

We'd be (at least) 10-4 right now and locked up the AFC West yesterday.

RINGLEADER
12-20-2010, 01:31 PM
As for Charles if we make the playoffs I would love to see him and Thomas Jones reverse their carries and him workhorse to some playoff wins.. But regardless this season has been a huge success..

This. Underlined. In bold.

KCrockaholic
12-20-2010, 01:31 PM
Nope.

This Washington Post link was used time and time again. It was used by the "he has a ton of drops" crowd, and it was used by the "13 drops is less than 1 a game - a lot of great WR's are on that list" crowd. Everyone used it.

It was good enough last year, now some of you are claiming it's inaccurate?

Get the **** outta here.

Dude's improved by leaps and bounds.

What do you not get about that link being WRONG? It is incorrect.

I'm not saying he's bad or anything. I'm saying that link is WRONG. Because it is. I never used that washingtonpost stat crap last year, so I don't know what went on with those conversations. But it is wrong. What are you saying "nope" to?

OnTheWarpath58
12-20-2010, 01:41 PM
What do you not get about that link being WRONG? It is incorrect.

I'm not saying he's bad or anything. I'm saying that link is WRONG. Because it is. I never used that washingtonpost stat crap last year, so I don't know what went on with those conversations. But it is wrong. What are you saying "nope" to?

It's wrong because YOU say so?

OK, Guardian Jr.

Simply Red
12-20-2010, 01:43 PM
Here's an interesting stat - 30 percent of Charles' carries have gone for a first down.

The only guy who's better is Chris Ivory (32) and he has 130 carries.

Nobody in the top 30 in carries/game comes close to Charles. Next closest is 27.4.




http://i55.tinypic.com/1y76mb.gif

WebGem
12-20-2010, 01:44 PM
JFC

(Jamaal Fucking Charles)

KCrockaholic
12-20-2010, 01:48 PM
It's wrong because YOU say so?

OK, Guardian Jr.

It's wrong because I know so. Do you believe everything you read on websites? You should do your own homework and find out the exact number. I've got every game recorded, and although I haven't kept track of every drop from Bowe this year, I know for a fact he has more than 5. It would be somewhere in the 10-12 range.

And I'm in no way complaining about him. He's done a great job this year.

Chief Henry
12-20-2010, 01:48 PM
We'd be (at least) 10-4 right now and locked up the AFC West yesterday.

Spot on..prolly 11-3 with a shot at home field advantage.

pr_capone
12-20-2010, 01:52 PM
I have to question the validity of this list. This list claims that Stevie Johnson has only dropped 8 passes all year? He dropped 5 passes in the one game that he dropped the game winner in the endzone in overtime.

That was an aberration because God did him wrong tho.

Rausch
12-20-2010, 01:52 PM
I saw Larry Fitz drop a pivotal TD pass 3 weeks ago, too...

saw Jerry Rice drop the easiest TD pass ever against KC when he was with Oakland back in the day as well...

drops happen...

Bowe has been stellar this year...outside of the Indianapolis game.

He's been complete fail every time we've NEEDED HIM.

CLUTCH PASSES.

Passes that tie or win or give us a life-sustaining first down.

He pukes.

Bowe is the new Willie Davis...

OnTheWarpath58
12-20-2010, 01:55 PM
It's wrong because I know so. Do you believe everything you read on websites? You should do your own homework and find out the exact number. I've got every game recorded, and although I haven't kept track of every drop from Bowe this year, I know for a fact he has more than 5. It would be somewhere in the 10-12 range.

And I'm in no way complaining about him. He's done a great job this year.

So you have no proof whatsoever.

Awesome.

I'm sure the link I posted - which ironically is the exact same list that comes up when you search for drops statistics on other websites - is not only wrong, but wrong by over 100%? STATS, LLC is in the business of putting out phony statistics?

Let's just say you'd make a shitty lawyer.

Proof, please.

KCrockaholic
12-20-2010, 01:58 PM
So you have no proof whatsoever.

Awesome.

I'm sure the link I posted - which ironically is the exact same list that comes up when you search for drops statistics on other websites - is not only wrong, but wrong by over 100%?

Let's just say you'd make a shitty lawyer.

Proof, please.

Alright, let me cut up some lowlights and post it on youtube. The only way I could provide proof would be to literally backtrack over every game and make a clip of every drop. And because I'm not getting paid like a Lawyer, I won't do that.

But I can make up numbers just like Washington Post, and say they are correct.

Thig Lyfe
12-20-2010, 01:58 PM
People who think Bowe has dropped more than 5 passes are racist.

KCrockaholic
12-20-2010, 02:00 PM
People who think Bowe has dropped more than 5 passes are racist.

Maybe if he was whiter I would let him slide. Danny Woodhead has only dropped 1 pass.

Thig Lyfe
12-20-2010, 02:00 PM
But I can make up numbers just like Washington Post, and say they are correct.

IT'S THE LIBERAL MEDIA!!!!!!!!!


Ha ha, the Washington Post didn't make up those stats. Look at the bottom of that list. It says © 2010 by STATS LLC. No offense, but I think STATS LLC knows slightly more about stats than you do.

OnTheWarpath58
12-20-2010, 02:00 PM
Alright, let me cut up some lowlights and post it on youtube. The only way I could provide proof would be to literally backtrack over every game and make a clip of every drop. And because I'm not getting paid like a Lawyer, I won't do that.

But I can make up numbers just like Washington Post, and say they are correct.

Yeah, STATS, LLC - the leader in sports statistics for 30 years - is making this up.

Who should I believe?

STATS, LLC, or you?

JTagg7754
12-20-2010, 02:01 PM
Yeah, STATS, LLC - the leader in sports statistics for 30 years - is making this up.

Who should I believe?

STATS, LLC, or you?

But can you tell me what constitutes a drop and what doesn't?

KCrockaholic
12-20-2010, 02:02 PM
Yeah, STATS, LLC - the leader in sports statistics for 30 years - is making this up.

Who should I believe?

STATS, LLC, or you?

Believe stats. I want you to. But you will be wrong.

OnTheWarpath58
12-20-2010, 02:02 PM
But can you tell me what constitutes a drop and what doesn't?

Sounds like a question you need to ask STATS, LLC.

Thig Lyfe
12-20-2010, 02:03 PM
Yeah, STATS, LLC - the leader in sports statistics for 30 years - is making this up.

Who should I believe?

STATS, LLC, or you?

Statistics should be measured by our gut feelings. I have a gut feeling that the Chiefs are undefeated, Jamaal Charles has 5,000 yards rushing and Philip Rivers has one week to live. Let it be so! TAKE THAT, STATS LLC!!!!

OnTheWarpath58
12-20-2010, 02:04 PM
Statistics should be measured by our gut feelings. I have a gut feeling that the Chiefs are undefeated, Jamaal Charles has 5,000 yards rushing and Philip Rivers has one week to live. Let it be so! TAKE THAT, STATS LLC!!!!

LMAO

thurman merman
12-20-2010, 02:05 PM
We'd be (at least) 10-4 right now and locked up the AFC West yesterday.

If you're going to blame Bowe for a loss, then you have to give him credit for wins in the good games he had too. So, 9-5 sounds about right.

raybec 4
12-20-2010, 02:05 PM
Yep, all those drops.

Where is he on this list?

http://stats.washingtonpost.com/fb/leaders.asp?range=NFL&type=receiving&rank=232&year=

Is that your way of saying- "Not to be a douche but...you're a douche" ?

KCrockaholic
12-20-2010, 02:06 PM
But can you tell me what constitutes a drop and what doesn't?

That's the thing. Maybe Stats has a different opinion of what a drop is than I do.

If the ball is catchable, and in the hands of the receiver, and it ends up on the ground, that is a drop.

Or old school, if you touch the ball and don't catch it, it's a drop.

JTagg7754
12-20-2010, 02:07 PM
Sounds like a question you need to ask STATS, LLC.

Exactly. Who's to say their definition of a drop is correct though? This "debate" is flawed and shouldn't even be harped on a there is no concrete definition of a drop, only an opinionated one.

Count Alex's Losses
12-20-2010, 02:08 PM
JTagg's avatar owns. Shit is hilarious!

OnTheWarpath58
12-20-2010, 02:11 PM
That's the thing. Maybe Stats has a different opinion of what a drop is than I do.

If the ball is catchable, and in the hands of the receiver, and it ends up on the ground, that is a drop.

Or old school, if you touch the ball and don't catch it, it's a drop.

Nice backpedal.

Personally, I'm going to trust that the worldwide leader in sports statistics have agreed on what constitutes a drop, and are consistent in applying it.

I mean, it's only their job.

I don't give a shit what YOU think is a drop.

What's next, are you going to dispute his catch total on NFL.com? His yardage?

KCrockaholic
12-20-2010, 02:14 PM
Nice backpedal.

Personally, I'm going to trust that the worldwide leader in sports statistics have agreed on what constitutes a drop, and are consistent in applying it.

I mean, it's only their job.

I don't give a shit what YOU think is a drop.

What's next, are you going to dispute his catch total on NFL.com? His yardage?

Looks like you do care, or we wouldn't be having this discussion.

But like I said, if you want to really know, just go back and watch the games for yourself. I can think of 6 drops right now off the top of my head. Ones that stand out anyways. And I know there are more. But you don't give a shit.

The funny thing is we all have different opinions of what a drop is. Todd Haley has a different number than PFF, and STATS.

Rausch
12-20-2010, 02:15 PM
People who think Bowe has dropped more than 5 passes are racist.

Then sign me up for Hitler...

JTagg7754
12-20-2010, 02:15 PM
JTagg's avatar owns. Shit is hilarious!

Thanks man!!! I got a ton more if you want to see some hahahaha.

OnTheWarpath58
12-20-2010, 02:16 PM
Exactly. Who's to say their definition of a drop is correct though? This "debate" is flawed and shouldn't even be harped on a there is no concrete definition of a drop, only an opinionated one.

Maybe in your world.

Some of us aren't so retarded that we distrust the process the worldwide leader in sports statistics use.

I'm still waiting for someone, anyone to come up with some actual evidence.

In the meantime, I'm going to go on a fact-finding mission. Since the stats world is so corrupt, I'm betting that Jamaal Charles has gotten raped of some yardage this year. I know there were times were he got a shade over 4 and a half yards on a carry, but those fuckers rounded it down to an even 4.

Fuck, I bet all of our team's stats are wrong. I hear every week how the league hates us, doesn't call holding, etc. Bowe's drops are just the tip of the iceberg, I'd bet.

JTagg7754
12-20-2010, 02:21 PM
Let me just ask something to you.

If dropped passes are so concrete, why doesn't every site use them?

OnTheWarpath58
12-20-2010, 02:27 PM
Let me just ask something to you.

If dropped passes are so concrete, why doesn't every site use them?


Who said they were concrete?

Not me.

I did say that STATS, LLC - which is where si.com and foxsports.com - among others - get their stats for their websites - have a criteria they use.

So now, we're distrusting not only STATS, LLC, but Sports Illustrated and Fox Sports.

This is getting more pathetic by the minute.

JTagg7754
12-20-2010, 02:28 PM
Who said they were concrete?

Not me.

I did say that STATS, LLC - which is where si.com and foxsports.com - among others - get their stats for their websites - have a criteria they use.

So now, we're distrusting not only STATS, LLC, but Sports Illustrated and Fox Sports.

This is getting more pathetic by the minute.

No, really what's pathetic is you taking an opinion and trying to pass it along as fact especially when it's seemingly not a stat recognized by the NFL.

OnTheWarpath58
12-20-2010, 02:41 PM
No, really what's pathetic is you taking an opinion and trying to pass it along as fact especially when it's seemingly not a stat recognized by the NFL.

So now STATS, LLC is printing opinions?

How in the hell did they become the worldwide leader in sports statistics by doing that?

Answer: They didn't.

The criteria has been set. It's the same this year as it was last year, when no one had any complaints about the number of passes they claimed Bowe dropped.

You should probably send an e-mail to SI and Fox - I'm sure they'd love to know that the stats service they use is in the business of producing opinion.

Whether the NFL recognizes it or not is irrelevant. Christ, they didn't recognize QB sacks until 1982. Probably ought to pull Deacon Jones out of the HOF - his 170+ sacks weren't "official".

There are a ton of stats the league doesn't "recognize as official." That doesn't discredit the work done by companies such as STATS or the Elias Sports Bureau, however.

JTagg7754
12-20-2010, 02:53 PM
LOL you just don't get it. I don't know how else to explain that their opinion of a drop is just that, an opinion.

OnTheWarpath58
12-20-2010, 02:59 PM
LOL you just don't get it. I don't know how else to explain that their opinion of a drop is just that, an opinion.

Yeah, they just sit up in the booth saying, I guess that's a drop, I guess that isn't.

They have a set criteria to determine if it was a drop or not.

Just like they have a criteria to determine what to do when a player gains more than 5 yards, but less than 6.

They aren't just pulling this out of their ass.

JTagg7754
12-20-2010, 03:04 PM
My god.... if there's ever a time for a facepalm it's now.....

OnTheWarpath58
12-20-2010, 03:07 PM
My god.... if there's ever a time for a facepalm it's now.....

Says the guy with the red dots...

ROFL

Frosty
12-20-2010, 03:11 PM
Heck, I'm still trying to figure out what a "wicket stat" is. Sounds like cricket.

RINGLEADER
12-20-2010, 03:11 PM
Yeah, STATS, LLC - the leader in sports statistics for 30 years - is making this up.

Who should I believe?

STATS, LLC, or you?

Well I know he dropped two yesterday...
Two (back to back) against Indy...
The drop against the Raiders that would have sealed the game...

That's five that I can remember...He has gotten better, but they really seem to come at the worst times.

Then again, the entire receiving corps was off yesterday...

HoneyBadger
12-20-2010, 03:14 PM
I think this was weis' plan all along. Carefully use JC. Get to the playoffs, and pound that MFer 25 times a game and make everyone pay.

Shhhh!!! Your going to let the opposing teams know our game plan.....

HoneyBadger
12-20-2010, 03:14 PM
Heck, I'm still trying to figure out what a "wicket stat" is. Sounds like cricket.

Its probably a euro-trash term.

Short Leash Hootie
12-20-2010, 03:17 PM
Looks like you do care, or we wouldn't be having this discussion.

But like I said, if you want to really know, just go back and watch the games for yourself. I can think of 6 drops right now off the top of my head. Ones that stand out anyways. And I know there are more. But you don't give a shit.

The funny thing is we all have different opinions of what a drop is. Todd Haley has a different number than PFF, and STATS.

please name the 6 drops off the top of your head

Count Alex's Losses
12-20-2010, 03:18 PM
Heck, I'm still trying to figure out what a "wicket stat" is. Sounds like cricket.

I left that there on purpose, because I was hoping for an Ewok joke.

Frosty
12-20-2010, 03:22 PM
I left that there on purpose, because I was hoping for an Ewok joke.

I just googled what wickets had to do with Ewoks. Waaay too obscure for me.

-King-
12-20-2010, 03:58 PM
Nice backpedal.

Personally, I'm going to trust that the worldwide leader in sports statistics have agreed on what constitutes a drop, and are consistent in applying it.

I mean, it's only their job.

I don't give a shit what YOU think is a drop.

What's next, are you going to dispute his catch total on NFL.com? His yardage?

Wait....so now you're saying that the drop stat isn't subjective?

nstygma
12-20-2010, 04:04 PM
hold on, why aren't you also looking at this info(link (http://stats.washingtonpost.com/fb/playerstats.asp?id=8277&team=12)):

Incomplete Pass Information
Targets Drops Percent Caught Percent First Down
114 5 53.5 40.4


so cassel overthrew or missed bowe 48 times this year(he has 61 catches)?

-King-
12-20-2010, 04:05 PM
OnTheWarpath....the next Dane in terms of hypocritical posts?

It's subjective.

Just like the "drops" stat.

Which is why the drop stat is fucking retarded.

Funny how you ignore the stat I posted for 2008.

And ignore BossChief's post.

And ignore that drops are a subjective stat. What's considered a drop in Kc may not be considered a drop in Houston or New Orleans.

Which is why it's fucking retarded to get worked up over.

Again, drops are a subjective stat.

If the ball is thrown well behind Bowe, and he has to attempt a circus catch and fails, is that a drop?

It shouldn't be.

Are the decision makers checking replays to see if the defender got a piece of the ball, or are they going on what they see at full speed?

I can think of 2 or 3 instances last year where people here got pissy over a supposed drop and the replay showed the defender getting a hand on the ball.

....I can go on for about 100 posts...

OnTheWarpath58
12-20-2010, 04:09 PM
Wait....so now you're saying that the drop stat isn't subjective?

OnTheWarpath....the next Dane in terms of hypocritical posts?









....I can go on for about 100 posts...

Sure, the stat is subjective to you or I.

STATS has an established, uniform criteria set to determine what is and what isn't a drop.

I'm going to trust the experts over the fans on this one.

OnTheWarpath58
12-20-2010, 04:10 PM
hold on, why aren't you also looking at this info(link (http://stats.washingtonpost.com/fb/playerstats.asp?id=8277&team=12)):

Incomplete Pass Information
Targets Drops Percent Caught Percent First Down
114 5 53.5 40.4


so cassel overthrew or missed bowe 48 times this year(he has 61 catches)?

He could have been overthrown, missed or the defender could have defended the pass.

-King-
12-20-2010, 04:13 PM
Sure, the stat is subjective to you or I.

STATS has an established, uniform criteria set to determine what is and what isn't a drop.

I'm going to trust the experts over the fans on this one.

Bowe had 2 straight drops in Houston. The TD pass and the quick slant. He also had a drop at Indy. He had that drop on 3rd down in Oakland. Thats 4 drops. You're saying that he only had 1 other drop in his other 500 plays?

Chief Henry
12-20-2010, 04:19 PM
It seems like those 5 dropped passes were against Indy, Texas and Oakland. But hey, I'm not going to argue with any poster that wants to use world wide leader in sports statistics about 20 times in one thread. Who am I to discredit any poster that has a lock on using world wide leader in statistics.

BTW, maybe if Bowe didn't lead the league in dropped passes in 2008 with 12 and another 10 dropped passes in 2009 we wouldn't be having this conversation would we ?

Maybe we can all agree that most of his dropped passes this year have come at crucial times. But hey, maybe the world wide leader in sports statistics can refute that as well :rolleyes:


I'm glad he is improving substantially from his two previous years of playing with 11 thumbs. Christian Okoye had the corner of playing with 11 thumbs during his career.

OnTheWarpath58
12-20-2010, 04:34 PM
Bowe had 2 straight drops in Houston. The TD pass and the quick slant. He also had a drop at Indy. He had that drop on 3rd down in Oakland. Thats 4 drops. You're saying that he only had 1 other drop in his other 500 plays?

Hard to take you seriously when you can't get your facts straight.

He had the two straight drops in Indy, not Houston.

I don't recall a drop in Houston. Feel free to show evidence to the contrary.

The drop in Oakland. That's three.

nstygma
12-20-2010, 04:35 PM
It seems like those 5 dropped passes were against Indy, Texas and Oakland. But hey, I'm not going to argue with any poster that wants to use world wide leader in sports statistics about 20 times in one thread. Who am I to discredit any poster that has a lock on using world wide leader in statistics.

BTW, maybe if Bowe didn't lead the league in dropped passes in 2008 with 12 and another 10 dropped passes in 2009 we wouldn't be having this conversation would we ?

Maybe we can all agree that most of his dropped passes this year have come at crucial times. But hey, maybe the world wide leader in sports statistics can refute that as well :rolleyes:


I'm glad he is improving substantially from his two previous years of playing with 11 thumbs. Christian Okoye had the corner of playing with 11 thumbs during his career.
perhaps the technical definition they use for defining drops is "when the ball hits the player in both hands and he doesn't catch the ball, and there is no defender within 5 yards of him" or something similar. that would rule out many incidents we generally regard as being a drop since sometimes it bounces off his chest or there's a defender a few yards away

OnTheWarpath58
12-20-2010, 04:36 PM
perhaps the technical definition they use for defining drops is "when the ball hits the player in both hands and he doesn't catch the ball, and there is no defender within 5 yards of him" or something similar. that would rule out many incidents we generally regard as being a drop since sometimes it bounces off his chest or there's a defender a few yards away

:rolleyes:

Yeah, I'm sure that is it.

-King-
12-20-2010, 04:40 PM
Hard to take you seriously when you can't get your facts straight.

He had the two straight drops in Indy, not Houston.

I don't recall a drop in Houston. Feel free to show evidence to the contrary.

The drop in Oakland. That's three.


Ok, got my teams mixed up. Still, so he has 3 drops in just those games. In the other games he has only 2?


You've said it yourself that the drop stat is a bullshit stat. How can you say that and then say that you trust it?

nstygma
12-20-2010, 04:41 PM
:rolleyes:

Yeah, I'm sure that is it.


houston game, 4th quarter
(:22) (Shotgun) 7-M.Cassel pass incomplete short middle to 82-D.Bowe
would you call that a drop?

OnTheWarpath58
12-20-2010, 04:45 PM
Ok, got my teams mixed up. Still, so he has 3 drops in just those games. In the other games he has only 2?


You've said it yourself that the drop stat is a bullshit stat. How can you say that and then say that you trust it?

I said it was retarded.

And I still feel that way. Not because I think the data is inaccurate, but that people here continue to bitch about what is and what isn't a drop.

OnTheWarpath58
12-20-2010, 04:46 PM
houston game, 4th quarter
(:22) (Shotgun) 7-M.Cassel pass incomplete short middle to 82-D.Bowe
would you call that a drop?

How in the hell can anyone classify that a drop without seeing the play?

nstygma
12-20-2010, 04:52 PM
How in the hell can anyone classify that a drop without seeing the play?
thought you had the games saved for some reason.
i just looked up a few of his incompletes and viewed the plays to check them out. thats the only one i saw in that game that could be a drop. i personally wouldn't count that because it was thrown behind him even though he should have caught it. however, there's no way to know how STATS defines drops, is there

JASONSAUTO
12-20-2010, 05:36 PM
The criteria has been set. It's the same this year as it was last year, when no one had any complaints about the number of passes they claimed Bowe dropped.



actually some people doubted these stats last year also.

JASONSAUTO
12-20-2010, 05:37 PM
I said it was retarded.

And I still feel that way. Not because I think the data is inaccurate, but that people here continue to bitch about what is and what isn't a drop.

thats because there is NO set criteria.


and i believe that Bowe has done a much better job of acutually catching the ball this year.

Count Alex's Losses
12-21-2010, 04:27 AM
Charles injury update (CBS Rapid Reports (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/rapid-reports/team/KC)):


RB Jamaal Charles was understandably sore on Monday, but there were no other long term problems from the cramping he suffered in both legs during Sunday's game in St. Louis. Charles fought through those cramps to run for 126 yards, including an 80-yard run.

Chiefs=Good
12-21-2010, 05:39 AM
LMAO this is some funny shit right here. the drops debate.

I would say that this STATS site is probably correct, or maybe 1 or 2 off.

I think people are just stuck with this mindset that Bowe drops a lot of passes (which he did in prior years) and are now convinced that he still does..

-King-
12-21-2010, 06:05 AM
LMAO this is some funny shit right here. the drops debate.

I would say that this STATS site is probably correct, or maybe 1 or 2 off.

I think people are just stuck with this mindset that Bowe drops a lot of passes (which he did in prior years) and are now convinced that he still does..

I think Bowe is a top 10 WR and has some of the best talent in the NFL as a receiver. But to think that he has only dropped 5 passes is crazy.

-King-
12-21-2010, 06:09 AM
ROFL ROFL Just looked it up. Charles has 74 less carries than Arian Foster and only 42 less yards. If he had the same number of carries as Foster, he would have 1776 yards right now.

Commit2Excellence
12-21-2010, 12:45 PM
When it comes to drops the statisticians are a lot more forgiving then coaches. If a guy makes a diving attempt at a catch down on 1 knee and drops it the stat keepers won't often call that a drop...but the coaches will.

So, basically, if the stats call it a drop it REALLY is a drop.

Hydrae
12-21-2010, 01:26 PM
LMAO this is some funny shit right here. the drops debate.

I would say that this STATS site is probably correct, or maybe 1 or 2 off.

I think people are just stuck with this mindset that Bowe drops a lot of passes (which he did in prior years) and are now convinced that he still does..

The main point people seem to be ignoring is that when comparing Bowe to other WRs in the league, the criteria is the same for them all. Whether you agree with the stats as presented or not, all players are being judged in the same manner and are thus compared with each other on an even level.

milkman
12-21-2010, 01:36 PM
The main point people seem to be ignoring is that when comparing Bowe to other WRs in the league, the criteria is the same for them all. Whether you agree with the stats as presented or not, all players are being judged in the same manner and are thus compared with each other on an even level.

Solid.

mlyonsd
12-21-2010, 01:39 PM
I'd suggest searching the forum for 'bowe is back', then divide the total results found by the number of active users on the board.

That sould get you pretty close to number of drops he's had.

Count Alex's Losses
12-21-2010, 01:53 PM
I'd suggest searching the forum for 'bowe is back', then divide the total results found by the number of active users on the board.

That sould get you pretty close to number of drops he's had.

If someone cared enough to go through the game threads, it would be pretty easy to find where he dropped balls, because you'll see everyone bitching all at once.

In fact, you might just be able to search those threads for "Bowe" and find the drops he had in the game pretty easily and quickly with a little logic.

OnTheWarpath58
12-21-2010, 03:19 PM
The main point people seem to be ignoring is that when comparing Bowe to other WRs in the league, the criteria is the same for them all. Whether you agree with the stats as presented or not, all players are being judged in the same manner and are thus compared with each other on an even level.

Rep.

BossChief
12-21-2010, 04:39 PM
I remember 2 against Indy...1 against Oakland and 1 against StL.

Which one am I missing?

Halfcan
12-21-2010, 05:18 PM
Charles has been the best back in the NFL the last 2 years. Glad we showed him the money!

Count Alex's Losses
12-21-2010, 05:34 PM
I remember 2 against Indy...1 against Oakland and 1 against StL.

Which one am I missing?

Dropped one on the first possession against Buffalo.

Dropped one near the end of the game against Arizona or Seattle. It was a slant on third down when the game was already salted away.

WebGem
12-23-2010, 10:15 PM
gochiefs you should make some animation where CJ2K turns into JC2K.

Jamaal is fucking taking over!

KCrockaholic
12-23-2010, 10:33 PM
gochiefs you should make some animation where CJ2K turns into JC2K.

Jamaal is ****ing taking over!

Jamaal won't ever be JC2k as long as Haley is our coach. They won't make him a feature back that has 300 carries a season unless they have to.

WebGem
12-23-2010, 10:35 PM
Jamaal won't ever be JC2k as long as Haley is our coach. They won't make him a feature back that has 300 carries a season unless they have to.

He doesn't need 2k to be JC2k, you just do simulations for his projected yards if he got all the carries. He's that fucking sweet.

KCrockaholic
12-23-2010, 10:36 PM
He doesn't need 2k to be JC2k, you just do simulations for his projected yards if he got all the carries. He's that ****ing sweet.

Oh ok.

I'm happy with JC6.5YPC

WebGem
12-23-2010, 10:38 PM
Oh ok.

I'm happy with JC6.5YPC

lmao

kysirsoze
12-23-2010, 10:43 PM
If someone cared enough to go through the game threads, it would be pretty easy to find where he dropped balls, because you'll see everyone bitching all at once.

In fact, you might just be able to search those threads for "Bowe" and find the drops he had in the game pretty easily and quickly with a little logic.

This might work except for the people that call anything within 10 yards of Bowe a drop regardless of the coverage. I bet that one in the SD game that looked like a drop but in reality was just fantastic coverage brought on a shitstorm of bitching.

WebGem
12-23-2010, 10:43 PM
Wow "Jay See Six Point Five Why Pee See" is catchy.

I can't stop saying it now.

beach tribe
12-24-2010, 12:57 AM
Jamaal won't ever be JC2k as long as Haley is our coach. They won't make him a feature back that has 300 carries a season unless they have to.

Actually, I believe that once the coaching staff believes that we have a SB caliber squad JC will be the featured back, and will average about 20 touches a game. I've said all along that this coaching staff is not dumb enough to burn him up when there is no trophy on the line, but if the carrot is the SB, they will turn that rabbit loose. I also think that once he's around the age of 28-29, he will be used much more because his clock will be ticking anyway.
Some people called me an idiot for saying this, but it makes too much sense. JC is a special player, and they want him to be around when they get a chance to prove that they are elite coaches/executives. If that day comes soon enough they will try to ride JC to a first round bye, homefield throughout, and hopefully, a very slow car ride through downtown KC. JC will have a chance at 2000 then.

Short Leash Hootie
12-24-2010, 12:58 AM
It was a slant on third down when the game was already salted away.

well in fairness that was a pretty well defensed ball...defender had his hand right between the 8 and the 2 on Bowe's jersey.

Short Leash Hootie
12-24-2010, 12:59 AM
well if we get to the playoffs this year I fully expect Jones to rot away on the sideline

OnTheWarpath58
12-24-2010, 01:17 AM
well in fairness that was a pretty well defensed ball...defender had his hand right between the 8 and the 2 on Bowe's jersey.

I don't recall the play, but if that's true, that's not a drop - it's a "pass defensed."

Short Leash Hootie
12-24-2010, 01:19 AM
it was borderline...maybe Clay can .gif it up

Count Alex's Losses
12-24-2010, 01:25 AM
It was definitely a drop. Bowe was pissed at himself.

chiefzilla1501
12-24-2010, 01:30 AM
This might work except for the people that call anything within 10 yards of Bowe a drop regardless of the coverage. I bet that one in the SD game that looked like a drop but in reality was just fantastic coverage brought on a shitstorm of bitching.

If I remember correctly, the drop in San Diego was a legit drop, but it's also worth asking why Brodie fired a cannon throw at a guy on that kind of a quick route. As usual, Brodie only knows one way to throw the ball--with a lot of mustard.

Short Leash Hootie
12-24-2010, 01:32 AM
It was definitely a drop. Bowe was pissed at himself.

.gif it for me

I remember seeing a pass defensed

Count Alex's Losses
12-24-2010, 01:44 AM
.gif it for me

I remember seeing a pass defensed

Eat shit.

Short Leash Hootie
12-24-2010, 01:47 AM
Eat shit.

figured

i'll just assume I was right

Awesome Aric
12-24-2010, 01:47 AM
Very wicket stat indeed OP.

kysirsoze
12-24-2010, 02:40 AM
If I remember correctly, the drop in San Diego was a legit drop, but it's also worth asking why Brodie fired a cannon throw at a guy on that kind of a quick route. As usual, Brodie only knows one way to throw the ball--with a lot of mustard.

He might have had a drop in SD, but the one where he was behind the coverage and Brodie hit him in stride, the corner made a fantastic play on the ball and knocked it out. At first I was cursing Bowe till I saw the replay from the other side.

nstygma
12-24-2010, 03:33 AM
It was definitely a drop. Bowe was pissed at himself.the bolded part is definitely true. i'm sure STATS wouldn't count that as a drop but bowe and the coaches likely do
vid link http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqBLPLnTzhw&hd=1
edit: added another http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XkeXVTJkpuw&hd=1

Short Leash Hootie
12-24-2010, 03:49 AM
he was pissed because that coulda been TD #4...

he gets that clean and makes one move and he's gone...

dude definitely broke that up...

that's not a drop

wish I coulda seena slow-motion replay or a freeze cap...but yeah...defender made a nice play

catchable, but not a drop

Count Alex's Losses
12-24-2010, 08:37 AM
That ball was in his hands. It's a drop.

Short Leash Hootie
12-24-2010, 11:06 AM
That ball was in his hands. It's a drop.

no...

it was a pass defensed

there is a reason you aren't posting the .gif

you know I'm right

Rudy lost the toss
12-24-2010, 11:25 AM
Drop

Halfcan
12-24-2010, 11:29 AM
So if he broke Larry Johnson's record with 417 carries, he could go for 2,692 yards. That'd be cool.

:thumb: That would be sweet!

OnTheWarpath58
12-24-2010, 11:32 AM
I'm with Hootie on this one.

If the defender gets his hands on the ball, or knocks the ball out with his hands, it's a pass defensed.

Had that defender not made contact with the ball, I'd agree it's a drop.

JTagg7754
12-24-2010, 12:06 PM
Charles has been the best back in the NFL the last 2 years. Glad we showed him the money!

....... you're kidding right?? I mean, MAYBE this season but last season? Nah, you're joking. There is absolutely no way you're serious.

Pablo
12-24-2010, 12:21 PM
....... you're kidding right?? I mean, MAYBE this season but last season? Nah, you're joking. There is absolutely no way you're serious.He's been better than McFadden the last two years.

Count Alex's Losses
12-24-2010, 12:24 PM
no...

it was a pass defensed

there is a reason you aren't posting the .gif

you know I'm right

The reason is because I don't have that farging play saved.

And you sitting there acting like I should have to post a gif to defend my position when you're just flapping your gums and doing nothing is a load of shit.

Anyway, pointless debate. Fuck off.

Merry Christmas. :evil:

JTagg7754
12-24-2010, 12:34 PM
He's been better than McFadden the last two years.

Was McFadden the best back in the NFL the past two years? If not, I don't see the need to bring him up other than trying to cheap shot. Well I also have one of those, 23-20.

Halfcan
12-24-2010, 01:28 PM
....... you're kidding right?? I mean, MAYBE this season but last season? Nah, you're joking. There is absolutely no way you're serious.

Yards per carries and most plays of 20 or more yards.

JTagg7754
12-24-2010, 01:40 PM
Yards per carries and most plays of 20 or more yards.

LOL I have some very interesting people in my fan base. Not the brightest people in the world, but you're making them look like fucking Albert Einstein w/ this talk.

Just to further prove, take your theory away from this board and go to a neutral site and see how many people agree w/ you. The notion you're bringing up is just THAT stupid. Like REALLY stupid. Sorry man. Try not to be such a homer.

Short Leash Hootie
12-24-2010, 01:47 PM
well Charles was every bit as good as Chris Johnson down the stretch last year (as soon as Charles got his shot) and he's been the superior back this year so I'm not quite sure what Halfcan said that was so shocking

Short Leash Hootie
12-24-2010, 01:51 PM
Charles last 16 games:

251 for 1664 (6.63 YPC) and 6
43 for 438 and 1

best RB in the NFL

JTagg7754
12-24-2010, 01:55 PM
well Charles was every bit as good as Chris Johnson down the stretch last year (as soon as Charles got his shot) and he's been the superior back this year so I'm not quite sure what Halfcan said that was so shocking

Whole season >>>>>>> stretch run. Charles isn't even the best back in the league this year either. You don't split carries and be considered the best back. Not only that, the competition the Chiefs have played this season is next to dogshit so of course his stats will be inflated. The best RB IMO is Foster. I'm not even gonna attempt to debate that here unless someone logical presents good info other than lame insults and his YPC. I'm well aware of all those things.

EDIT: I'm not trying to take anything away from the guy. Great season and he seems to be a good runner but to say he was better than CJ last season is just fucking dumb. REALLY dumb.

JTagg7754
12-24-2010, 01:56 PM
Charles last 16 games:

251 for 1664 (6.63 YPC) and 6
43 for 438 and 1

best RB in the NFL

Stats are misleading.

NOT best RB in the NFL. Sorry.

Short Leash Hootie
12-24-2010, 02:01 PM
well he is better than CJ this season...

and Foster has been great, no doubt...but is his team winning games?

They went from a pass heavy, elite offense that could score at will to a run first team that struggles to score points.

Short Leash Hootie
12-24-2010, 02:02 PM
Stats are misleading.

NOT best RB in the NFL. Sorry.

real concrete stuff you got there

stats can be misleading...

but how can a YPC stat for a RB that has that many carries be misleading?

This isn't a small sample size...

this is 250+ carries

and he averaged 6.63 YPC

time to take your head out of your ass

WebGem
12-24-2010, 02:02 PM
Stats are misleading.

NOT best RB in the NFL. Sorry.

McFadden is much better, right?

Halfcan
12-24-2010, 02:04 PM
LOL I have some very interesting people in my fan base. Not the brightest people in the world, but you're making them look like ****ing Albert Einstein w/ this talk.

Just to further prove, take your theory away from this board and go to a neutral site and see how many people agree w/ you. The notion you're bringing up is just THAT stupid. Like REALLY stupid. Sorry man. Try not to be such a homer.

Well if you go by stats-NO JC does not stack up because he did not get the carries. But go back and watch him run last year-perfect combination of Power, grace and speed.

Who was More fluid and better? JC has one of the best ypc in NFL history.

Short Leash Hootie
12-24-2010, 02:05 PM
McFadden is a beast, too...

Guys like CJ, Jamaal and McFadden...those are the new breed of factor backs that every NFL team envies.

But right now...at this point...I don't think anyone is taking anyone over Jamaal Charles...dude is a beast...good hands...can run for power...and he's as elusive as they come...

he can make something out of nothing and he almost NEVER has negative carries...

Shit...when he goes for only 3 everyone is like "wtf?!"

Thomas Jones keeps him fresh...but that's the NFL these days...Charles could win the rushing title splitting carries and having 50+ less carries (and even more in most cases) than all of the other backs fighting for the crown...

that's absolutely unheard of

Halfcan
12-24-2010, 02:05 PM
real concrete stuff you got there

stats can be misleading...

but how can a YPC stat for a RB that has that many carries be misleading?

This isn't a small sample size...

this is 250+ carries

and he averaged 6.63 YPC

time to take your head out of your ass

:thumb: And How many broken tackles??

JTagg7754
12-24-2010, 02:06 PM
well he is better than CJ this season...

and Foster has been great, no doubt...but is his team winning games?

They went from a pass heavy, elite offense that could score at will to a run first team that struggles to score points.

He is better than CJ a lot are. To say he's better than him last year is just dumb though. Real dumb. CJ had one of the best seasons ever for a RB last season.

OMG (and I hate acronyms) at your second statement. I thought first it was the QB you blame for losses but now it's the RB? Give me a fucking break dude. Shaub is top 5 in pass attempts b/c their defense fucking sucks and takes them out of games so he needs to chuck it all around. Foster is STILL putting up those numbers in a passing offense b/c the defense is terrible.

The two schedules from the Texans and Chiefs aren't comparable either.

JTagg7754
12-24-2010, 02:07 PM
real concrete stuff you got there

stats can be misleading...

but how can a YPC stat for a RB that has that many carries be misleading?

This isn't a small sample size...

this is 250+ carries

and he averaged 6.63 YPC

time to take your head out of your ass

It is concrete. i don't expect you or any other member of a Chiefs board to understand.

JTagg7754
12-24-2010, 02:07 PM
McFadden is much better, right?

You are fucking retarded. Go get eaten by a bear. This conversation isn't for you, kid.

Short Leash Hootie
12-24-2010, 02:08 PM
It is concrete. i don't expect you or any other member of a Chiefs board to understand.

what are we supposed to understand?

in Charles' last 251 carries...he's averaging 6.63 YPC

are you saying he busted a 400 yard run that skews the average?

JTagg7754
12-24-2010, 02:10 PM
McFadden is a beast, too...Guys like CJ, Jamaal and McFadden...those are the new breed of factor backs that every NFL team envies.

But right now...at this point...I don't think anyone is taking anyone over Jamaal Charles...dude is a beast...good hands...can run for power...and he's as elusive as they come.. he can make something out of nothing and he almost NEVER has negative carries...Shit...when he goes for only 3 everyone is like "wtf?!"

Thomas Jones keeps him fresh...but that's the NFL these days...Charles could win the rushing title splitting carries and having 50+ less carries (and even more in most cases) than all of the other backs fighting for the crown...

that's absolutely unheard of

I'm not taking anything away from Charles. he's an exciting runner to watch. For what you guys have had to go through lately also, it's refreshing to see. It's just being taken slightly too far.

I think the three of those guys as well as others will be forces to watch for many years. I'm not completely sold on McFadden as of now though. He needs to play more to make me a believer. One good season doesn't make you amazing (something this board needs to learn).

Short Leash Hootie
12-24-2010, 02:11 PM
it does if you're a RB...there is no such thing as a fluke season for a RB...you either have it, or you don't...pretty simple

and out of all of the things we've had to suffer through...good RB play isn't one of them

we've went from Priest, to Larry, to Charles...

I think we're doing just fine...

but it is nice to see Oakland finally have a good back...first good one since Charlie Garner?

Count Alex's Losses
12-24-2010, 02:12 PM
You wanna know why Charles > Foster?

1. Speed. Foster doesn't have the breakaway speed Charles does.

2. Supporting cast. If Charles had a QB like Schaub and a WR like Johnson making safeties back off, he would be a nightmare. Cassel and Bowe are good but not in that league yet. No one is playing eight in the box consistently against the Texans...against the Chiefs, it's standard operating procedure.

WebGem
12-24-2010, 02:13 PM
You are ****ing retarded. Go get eaten by a bear. This conversation isn't for you, kid.

Haha, sorry that you're trying to act like Mr Know it all and getting owned. It's not my fault, it really isn't.

Oh and lol @ calling me kid. I'm willing to bet I knew more than you know about football right now, before you were born. Fucking idiot.

JTagg7754
12-24-2010, 02:14 PM
what are we supposed to understand?

in Charles' last 251 carries...he's averaging 6.63 YPC

are you saying he busted a 400 yard run that skews the average?

No I'm saying his competition hasn't been the best. I'm saying he's not as good as you all are making him out to be. hell, we may as well be talking about Barry Sanders the way he's perceived around here. Charles is good, no doubt, but if the only thing you have to show of this is numbers, then I can't agree. Especially when he's putting up a good chunk of those against terrible run D's (ie Buffalo) but then can't even muster out more than 66 against an overrated run D in SD.

Good backs do it consistently and against everyone. Charles is good but he's not as consistent as he could be YET and he gets a lot of yards against dogshit defenses.

THAT is how they're skewed.

Short Leash Hootie
12-24-2010, 02:16 PM
Charles has had 1 unproductive game all year when we lost 31-0 with Brokie Suckass at QB...

but hey...

anything you can do to make yourself feel better knowing the Chiefs are going to own the West for the next 5 years (minimum)...

I don't blame you...you guys had to suffer through taking Russell #1 overall...I truly feel bad for Raiders fans :( No one deserves that...or Al.

JTagg7754
12-24-2010, 02:17 PM
it does if you're a RB...there is no such thing as a fluke season for a RB...you either have it, or you don't...pretty simple

and out of all of the things we've had to suffer through...good RB play isn't one of them

we've went from Priest, to Larry, to Charles...

I think we're doing just fine...

but it is nice to see Oakland finally have a good back...first good one since Charlie Garner?

I'm just talking about losing ways. I mean you did bring up if Houston was winning and Foster being the reason (at least implying). So the Chiefs had those guys but weren't winning.

McFadden is a one hit wonder so far w/ me. Can he stay healthy? That's a huge issue w/ me. I never liked the pick coming out of college but he's changed his running style this season and it's shown. If you watch him in college and before, he never used his blocks, his vision was of that of Helen Keller's, he had no patience, he got ahead of himself among other things. he doesn't seem to have any of those problems this year and it's showing. He's having a great year, but I need more to say he's a great back. I'm not a guy you're gonna find who says Terrell Davis was a good back, he was a flash in the pan, that's not a good back.

Let's not get me excited talking about Charlie Garner haha. I loved that dude.

Short Leash Hootie
12-24-2010, 02:18 PM
Garner was a fantasy stud for me...on the 49ers and the Raiders...I'm a Garner fan.

JTagg7754
12-24-2010, 02:18 PM
Haha, sorry that you're trying to act like Mr Know it all and getting owned. It's not my fault, it really isn't.

Oh and lol @ calling me kid. I'm willing to bet I knew more than you know about football right now, before you were born. Fucking idiot.

No, you don't. how do I know this? B/c you're being a jackass and arguing about something that isn't even being discussed in order to bait me into a homer debate like you obviously are looking for.

Shut up, sit in the peanut gallery, and leave the discussion to the people who possess an IQ higher than the largest denomination of change that's in their pockets.

Thanks.

Short Leash Hootie
12-24-2010, 02:20 PM
holy shit I just looked at Garner's 2002 numbers in Oakland...

no freaking wonder I loved that dude as my fantasy back...lol

I forgot about how amazing of a fantasy player he was...he was like Marshall Faulk light

JTagg7754
12-24-2010, 02:20 PM
You wanna know why Charles > Foster?

1. Speed. Foster doesn't have the breakaway speed Charles does.

2. Supporting cast. If Charles had a QB like Schaub and a WR like Johnson making safeties back off, he would be a nightmare. Cassel and Bowe are good but not in that league yet. No one is playing eight in the box consistently against the Texans...against the Chiefs, it's standard operating procedure.

I'm not gonna say either Cassel or Bowe are Shaub and Johnson but those two are no slouches.

My reason for why Foster is better. He carries the team, Charles splits it.

JTagg7754
12-24-2010, 02:21 PM
holy shit I just looked at Garner's 2002 numbers in Oakland...

no freaking wonder I loved that dude as my fantasy back...lol

I forgot about how amazing of a fantasy player he was...he was like Marshall Faulk light

I didn't play FF back then but I could only imagine. I had a large man crush on Garner (I will enver say he was the best back any of those years but dude was amazing). All he had to do was get us close than Crockett would get us the extra yard then Gannon could do whatever he wanted.

I fucking miss that offense. GOD they were fun to watch.

Short Leash Hootie
12-24-2010, 02:23 PM
the Raiders are still super, super gay

JTagg7754
12-24-2010, 02:26 PM
You have a Baseketball avi, I'm OK w/ you saying that haha. I have no problems w/ people hating Oakland also. They're an easy team to hate..... well they were. Now they're just a laughing stock w/ a crippled old man as an owner.

Short Leash Hootie
12-24-2010, 02:29 PM
BASEketball is one of the greatest movies ever.

Count Alex's Losses
12-24-2010, 02:31 PM
I'm not gonna say either Cassel or Bowe are Shaub and Johnson but those two are no slouches.

My reason for why Foster is better. He carries the team, Charles splits it.

Houston is 5th in passing offense.

The Chiefs are 30th.

Who carries their team, again?

JTagg7754
12-24-2010, 02:36 PM
Houston is 5th in passing offense.

The Chiefs are 30th.

Who carries their team, again?

Next RB in relation to carries:

Derrick Ward - 45

Thomas Jones - 212

So... who does carry the team??

JTagg7754
12-24-2010, 02:37 PM
BASEketball is one of the greatest movies ever.

You sir are correct. Actually those two are just fucking geniuses.

Count Alex's Losses
12-24-2010, 03:08 PM
Next RB in relation to carries:

Derrick Ward - 45

Thomas Jones - 212

So... who does carry the team??

Jamaal Charles - 34.8 percent of the Chiefs' offense.

Arian Foster - 35.8 percent of the Texans' offense.

Pretty close.

What happens when you remove Charles from the Chiefs' offense? It goes to shit.

What happens to the Texans without Foster? They'd be OK. Just like they were before he was starting.

Ugly Duck
12-24-2010, 05:05 PM
Jamaal Charles - 34.8 percent of the Chiefs' offense.

Arian Foster - 35.8 percent of the Texans' offense.

Pretty close.

Jamaal gets 26% of the Chiefs plays.
Foster gets 37% of the Houston plays.

Houston leans on Foster more than KC relies on Charles, but I believe that Charles is more important to his team. Houston could plug in some other guy & run the same offense. KC cannot replace Charles cuz his skill set is unique. There is only one.

milkman
12-24-2010, 10:18 PM
I'm just talking about losing ways. I mean you did bring up if Houston was winning and Foster being the reason (at least implying). So the Chiefs had those guys but weren't winning.

McFadden is a one hit wonder so far w/ me. Can he stay healthy? That's a huge issue w/ me. I never liked the pick coming out of college but he's changed his running style this season and it's shown. If you watch him in college and before, he never used his blocks, his vision was of that of Helen Keller's, he had no patience, he got ahead of himself among other things. he doesn't seem to have any of those problems this year and it's showing. He's having a great year, but I need more to say he's a great back. I'm not a guy you're gonna find who says Terrell Davis was a good back, he was a flash in the pan, that's not a good back.

Let's not get me excited talking about Charlie Garner haha. I loved that dude.

Uh....Charles had good vision in college, he just needed to learn the have the patience to wait for holes to develop.

Count Alex's Losses
12-26-2010, 01:26 PM
Charles is averaging 8.0 yards per carry today.

So, his average is going....up. LMAO

Rudy lost the toss
12-26-2010, 01:42 PM
Too bad Jones has looked bad in the second half of the season

Reerun_KC
12-26-2010, 01:42 PM
Good thing the Chiefs Coaching staff are smarter than us on CP...

Count Alex's Losses
01-01-2011, 01:30 AM
PFF blowjob:


9. Jamaal Charles, Kansas City (28 points)

Charles has officially emerged as the best back in the league, more than living up to his gaudy raw stats. Still not sure why Thomas Jones (graded 49<sup>th</sup> out of 57<sup>th</sup> qualifying RBs) needs to get so many looks. Todd Haley is the only man that can stop Charles, that’s for sure. They’ve graded out about the same as a receiver and blocker, but Jones is actually our lowest-ranked runner while Charles is No. 1.
A puzzler.