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B_Ambuehl
01-01-2011, 10:57 AM
Logical question. I just wanted to throw something out there from a schematic perspective.

In all seriousness this shouldn't be a bad deal. The offense should get better, not worse. The fact is this is primarily a run oriented team and the running game you see on Sundays is primarily a product of Chan Gailey. He installed the offense in '09 and, although Haley changed much of the passing game, a lot of the misdirection stretches and draws that have been so effective for us were and are staples of Gailey's over the years and most of that has stayed the same or been expanded upon. The main difference this year is the blocking has improved 1000%. The passing game will change, but by all accounts is should be more effective, not less. It'll definitely be a more diverse passing attack. If you go back and watch some of the Cardinals playoff games from '08 you'll see that Haley is an EXTREMELY aggressive play caller and if he has any confidence at all in the QB there should be little doubt of an improved passing game. Last year he couldn't call any effective offense because the line couldn't protect the QB. If you pay attention to when Haley was yelling into his headset this year it was usually after a round of very conservative playcalling - evidently a lot of the problems Haley had with Weis were on account of Weis being overly conservative. So, regardless of whether Haley takes over playcalling or someone else is brought in I woudln't worry too much.

'Hamas' Jenkins
01-01-2011, 11:08 AM
I'm not worried about the play calling. I am concerned about the dearth of QB coaching and development. Charlie Weis seems to be an excellent groomer of quarterbacks.

Mr. Laz
01-01-2011, 11:09 AM
1. we don't know if we are losing him

2. depends on who replaces him

Buehler445
01-01-2011, 11:14 AM
I'm not worried about the play calling. I am concerned about the dearth of QB coaching and development. Charlie Weis seems to be an excellent groomer of quarterbacks.

This is why the question is hard to answer. It is hard to determine what parts of the success are due to Weis. Jamaal Charles? He started his ascent last year. But if we get a n00b, will he say 400 carries = SUPER BOWL?

OL? How much is that due to Weis?

Cassel? Surely that has to be due to Weis. Or does Weis look good because Cassel has worked his ass off? Will Cassel shit himself again if he takes a few hits?

It's really impossible to tell.

ChiefsandO'sfan
01-01-2011, 11:16 AM
mortreport Chris Mortensen
On Weis, also have updated to report his exit was inevitable. Haley had strong oversight w offense & Cassel. Weis wants autonomy.



I think haley the one that help cassel

stevieray
01-01-2011, 11:18 AM
i don't know about the long term, but I think it might effect the team when they hear the news...when you feel like you're building something special, and the OC bolts...it cause discontinuity. that would four OC's in three years...

Mr. Laz
01-01-2011, 11:18 AM
mortreport Chris Mortensen
On Weis, also have updated to report his exit was inevitable. Haley had strong oversight w offense & Cassel. Weis wants autonomy.



I think haley the one that help cassel

he didn't do shit for Cassel the first year ... beside almost get him killed.

be honest, if Haley was leaving and Weis was staying then you would say "I think Weis helped Casse"

rah,rah,raaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahtard

B_Ambuehl
01-01-2011, 11:19 AM
I think all that QB development talk is over-rated. All players in the NFL are overcoached, particularly QBs. What primarily affects a QBs development is their pass protection and playcalling. Haley's offense (with proper pass protection) is definitely QB friendly. If the pass protection continues to improve and the running game remains solid there's no reason he'll drop off. The main point I wanted to make is the foundation of the offense (the running game) isn't gonna change because it wasn't unique to Weis (or Haley) in the first place. I'd be surprised if Cassel's QB rating next year is as good as it was this year but the passing game overall should be more effective. That QB rating deal isn't really a good barometer into the overall effectiveness of the attack IMO.

Also, it's ultra obvious Haley is too much of a control freak to feel comfortable giving up the offense. It was painful watching him on the sidelines fret over calls. I'd be surprised if the next OC isn't a yes man and even more surprised if Haley's not calling plays next year.

ChiefsandO'sfan
01-01-2011, 11:19 AM
he didn't do shit for Cassel the first year ... beside almost get him killed.

DID YOU SEE LAST YEAR O LINE????????????? It was god awful

Mr. Laz
01-01-2011, 11:21 AM
DID YOU SEE LAST YEAR O LINE????????????? It was god awful
which is a completely different point all together


try this then: neither Weis or Haley helped Cassel ... the Oline did.

ChiefsandO'sfan
01-01-2011, 11:22 AM
After the Florida game that going on right now,i think we find out alot more about weis going there i say in 3 hours its gonna come out.

Mr. Laz
01-01-2011, 11:23 AM
I think all that QB development talk is over-rated.
the stupidest gawd dam thing i have ever heard in my life

QB is the most heavily coach dependent position in football

ChiefsandO'sfan
01-01-2011, 11:23 AM
which is a completely different point all together


try this then: neither Weis or Haley helped Cassel ... the Oline did.

+1

BigMeatballDave
01-01-2011, 11:23 AM
Depends on who replaces him. Time will tell. I'm not too concerned about it, really.

KCrockaholic
01-01-2011, 11:24 AM
which is a completely different point all together


try this then: neither Weis or Haley helped Cassel ... the Oline did.

If you watched him play at all you would know Cassel was a different player towards the second half. Saying the O-line did doesn't work. Multiple times the pocket collapsed and Cassel escaped, improvising.

KurtCobain
01-01-2011, 11:25 AM
2. depends on who replaces him

This. I can think of quite a few candidates who would be better playcallers, but very few who can develop NFL players like Charlie. I figure Haley seems so be a pretty good player-groomer as well, so if we can get an innovative play caller who WILL STICK AROUND for a few years, we shouldn't miss a beat.

DJ's left nut
01-01-2011, 11:25 AM
In all honesty, it depends on who we get to replace him.

I don't think it will hurt at all if we get McDaniels - in fact I'd rather have McDaniels as the O-coordinator.

Is there any reason at all that Kyle Orton should be a better QB than Cassel? Physically, very little separates the 2 of them. Cassel's probably even more athletic.

What made Orton so good this year was his confidence in the pocket and his timing in the offense. All that held the offense back was the fact that their RBs are hideous.

So let's say McDaniels comes to KC and installs a similar passing attack. Take the Broncos combination of Orton/Lloyd and replace it with Cassel/Bowe, then ADD Jamal Charles and you have an offense that can be truly explosive.

I don't think we'll backslide with McDaniels at coordinator. In fact, I think we may be better off for it.

Mr. Laz
01-01-2011, 11:26 AM
If you watched him play at all you would know Cassel was a different player towards the second half. Saying the O-line did doesn't work. Multiple times the pocket collapsed and Cassel escaped, improvising.
read the thread, it's not my position ... it was Haydenchief. I was merely helping him express himself.

Pawnmower
01-01-2011, 11:26 AM
I hope they are right, but I truly dont see how people can say 'this wont hurt us at all.' I think it will be a set-back, and isnt coming at a very good time.

ChiefsandO'sfan
01-01-2011, 11:26 AM
If you watched him play at all you would know Cassel was a different player towards the second half. Saying the O-line did doesn't work. Multiple times the pocket collapsed and Cassel escaped, improvising.

If you listen haley made cassel watch tapes of drew brees but i guess weis helped him on that

KCrockaholic
01-01-2011, 11:27 AM
read the thread, it's not my position ... it was Haydenchief. I was merely helping him express himself.

I know, you were just using examples, but I'm just saying that one doesn't work.

KCrockaholic
01-01-2011, 11:27 AM
If you listen haley made cassel watch tapes of drew brees but i guess weis helped him on that

Yeah, and I think that was brilliant.

Chiefs Pantalones
01-01-2011, 11:29 AM
I don't think it'll hurt. What's more important is that the replacement shares the same philosophy and terminology so there can be continuity and growth each year.

ChiefsandO'sfan
01-01-2011, 11:29 AM
To me weis is a old dog in a new game .I really dont think this hurts the chiefs .I mean just think if the chiefs really wanted him dont you think they be all over TV saying this isnt true????

DJ's left nut
01-01-2011, 11:32 AM
DID YOU SEE LAST YEAR O LINE????????????? It was god awful

which is a completely different point all together


try this then: neither Weis or Haley helped Cassel ... the Oline did.

Then why was Cassel still pretty lousy in the first half behind the re-constructed O-line?

Try this: Neither, Lilja or Weigmann helped the O-line...Cassel (and by extension, Weis) did.

Cassel held the ball waaaaaaaaay too long last season. He didn't go through his progressions well and he was gunshy as hell. He didn't play within the timing of the offense and made his line look significantly worse than it was. You don't have a completely incompetent O-line and have the #1 rb in football for the 2nd half of the (2009) season.

Now he's standing confidently in the pocket, he's going through his reads on time and he's making the smart throw at the correct time. He looks like a real quarterback out there and his line looks significantly better on account of it.

The upgrade at RG has helped, but Matt Cassel's progression has done far more to help the line than the improvements on the line have helped Cassel.

chief52
01-01-2011, 11:33 AM
Depends on who replaces him. Time will tell. I'm not too concerned about it, really.

I think this is the best response. Maybe Weis was not going to even be asked to return. Haley is well respected and has connections. He will get the OC he wants.

Mr. Laz
01-01-2011, 11:33 AM
isnt coming at a very good time.
it's coming at a terrible time

the first time in 5+ years we have improved enough to not look like complete dogshit and we are going to change it.

Haley needs to grow the fuck up

(of course this is all based on that if the rumors we are hearing are true)

Mr. Laz
01-01-2011, 11:35 AM
I think this is the best response. Maybe Weis was not going to even be asked to return. Haley is well respected and has connections. He will get the OC he wants.
Haley said he wanted Weis

that's 2 quality veteran OC's that Haley has dumped so far.

The Bad Guy
01-01-2011, 11:37 AM
Logical question. I just wanted to throw something out there from a schematic perspective.

In all seriousness this shouldn't be a bad deal. The offense should get better, not worse. The fact is this is primarily a run oriented team and the running game you see on Sundays is primarily a product of Chan Gailey..

Just unreal continued bullshit from Ambuehl.

The run game is a product of Chan Gailey? Are you kidding me? Chan Gailey has been a miserable running coordinator for a while now.

But yes, this is all because of the seeds Gailey planted.

I don't think I'll ever read worse football takes ever. You should go over to WIPE Illustrated and get a feature column.

B_Ambuehl
01-01-2011, 11:38 AM
the stupidest gawd dam thing i have ever heard in my life

QB is the most heavily coach dependent position in football

And all QBs have plenty of quality coaching.

To illustrate my point, would you say Sam Bradford is having a good year for a rookie?

Who is his QB coach?

How about Josh Freeman. Who is his QB coach?

All QBs in this league have more than enough coaching, regardless of whose doing it. There aren't any teams in the league coaching any position group drastically different than any other team. The media loves to latch onto guys they like and blow things up out of proportion for certain coaches, but realistically Weis et. al aren't doing anything different coaching Cassel than Curl et. al are for any other QB. Obviously, playcalling varies, offenses vary, and personnel vary and those things will have significant influences on the end result.

The Bad Guy
01-01-2011, 11:38 AM
Haley said he wanted Weis

that's 2 quality veteran OC's that Haley has dumped so far.

Your speculation is top notch.

Could you come up with another mantra besides "Haley is the devil".

You're relucatant to accept any other explanation. Not the fact that Weis has been an OC only with defensive head coaches and had full reign of the offense. Nope, couldn't be that reason. It's all Haley.

Coogs
01-01-2011, 11:39 AM
I don't think it'll hurt. What's more important is that the replacement shares the same philosophy and terminology so there can be continuity and growth each year.

This

The Bad Guy
01-01-2011, 11:40 AM
And all QBs have plenty of quality coaching.

To illustrate my point, would you say Sam Bradford is having a good year for a rookie?

Who is his QB coach?

How about Josh Freeman. Who is his QB coach?

All QBs in this league have more than enough coaching, regardless of whose doing it. There aren't any teams in the league coaching any position group drastically different than any other team. The media loves to latch onto guys they like and blow things up out of proportion for certain coaches, but realistically Weis et. al aren't doing anything different coaching Cassel than Curl et. al are for any other QB.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

Yes, Chad Henne is getting the same coaching as Cassel is this year.

It's just all a big coincidence.

Hey Ambuehl, if you want to tell me Santa Claus is fake, I might have to re-evaluate my thinking.

'Hamas' Jenkins
01-01-2011, 11:44 AM
Chan Gailey has been a miserable running coordinator for a while now. .

This running game is not a product of Gailey, but Gailey is not a miserable running game coordinator. Hell, the Bills have a mostly inexperienced OL that is also lacking talent in several position, and they've averaged almost 4.4 YPC with Fred fucking Jackson as the feature back.

He made LJ look like an NFL back in the second half of 2008.

'Hamas' Jenkins
01-01-2011, 11:45 AM
To be fair, Bradford's QB coach is Dick Curl.

Chiefs Pantalones
01-01-2011, 11:46 AM
This running game is not a product of Gailey, but Gailey is not a miserable running game coordinator. Hell, the Bills have a mostly inexperienced OL that is also lacking talent in several position, and they've averaged almost 4.4 YPC with Fred ****ing Jackson as the feature back.

He made LJ look like an NFL back in the second half of 2008.

IIRC, and I don't want to remember 2008, we ditched the running game and ran the pistol with Thigpen the second half of the 08 season...

BigMeatballDave
01-01-2011, 11:48 AM
it's coming at a terrible time

the first time in 5+ years we have improved enough to not look like complete dogshit and we are going to change it.

Haley needs to grow the fuck up

(of course this is all based on that if the rumors we are hearing are true)ROFL Waaaaaaaaa! I HATE HALEY!

cdcox
01-01-2011, 11:48 AM
Cassel was terrible last year.

Weis came in. His number one priority was to "fix the QB".

Cassel is playing better than even the most staunch supporter thought he would at the beginning of the season. You have to figure that Cassel's improvement this season is about the maximum possible. Weis has done about the best anyone could do in developing Cassel.

Now you are going to change the OC. Cassel won't improve at a faster rate, because he's improving about as fast as a QB can improve. So about the most we could hope for would be to break even on a OC swap. Cassel may still improve, but by changing the OC, you open a very real possibility that he will regress.

Guru
01-01-2011, 11:50 AM
has this even been finalized yet?

'Hamas' Jenkins
01-01-2011, 11:51 AM
IIRC, and I don't want to remember 2008, we ditched the running game and ran the pistol with Thigpen the second half of the 08 season...

That's true, and as terrible as it was, LJ went from a 2 YPC back to a guy averaging 4.5.

I'm not saying Gailey is Don Coryell, or perhaps more accurately, Woody Hayes, but he's not a terrible coordinator of the running game. His college teams were almost always better at running than passing as well.

Rudy Niswanger, Adrian Jones and Damion McIntosh all one one OL...

Think about that.

B_Ambuehl
01-01-2011, 11:52 AM
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

Yes, Chad Henne is getting the same coaching as Cassel is this year.

It's just all a big coincidence.

Hey Ambuehl, if you want to tell me Santa Claus is fake, I might have to re-evaluate my thinking.

Henne's problem is his talent, offensive play calling and running game inconsistency, not his coaching.

If that weren't the case than guys like Dick Curl wouldn't be able to do with Sam Bradford what they're able to do.

If you knew anything about playing football or coaching football you'd realize that. Sorry, but you can't learn the game from the media.

bsp4444
01-01-2011, 11:54 AM
So now I've heard twice that McDaniels could come in and do a good job here. Really? How in the worls could he and Haley coexist?

dirk digler
01-01-2011, 11:54 AM
Unless we get Josh McDaniels IMHO this is devastating.

'Hamas' Jenkins
01-01-2011, 11:54 AM
Cassel was terrible last year.

Weis came in. His number one priority was to "fix the QB".

Cassel is playing better than even the most staunch supporter thought he would at the beginning of the season. You have to figure that Cassel's improvement this season is about the maximum possible. Weis has done about the best anyone could do in developing Cassel.

Now you are going to change the OC. Cassel won't improve at a faster rate, because he's improving about as fast as a QB can improve. So about the most we could hope for would be to break even on a OC swap. Cassel may still improve, but by changing the OC, you open a very real possibility that he will regress.

I'll be honest, this is what scares me:

We play a much tougher schedule next year. If Weis leaves and Cassel takes a dive, his regression will be blamed on the coordinator rather than a solid NFL schedule. Then, this will be used as the excuse to pass on a QB in '12, which could perpetuate a cycle of mediocrity.

Chiefs Pantalones
01-01-2011, 11:55 AM
So now I've heard twice that McDaniels could come in and do a good job here. Really? How in the worls could he and Haley coexist?

Because, believe it or not, Haley and McDaniels are more compatible in terms of offensive philosophy than Haley and Weis.

B_Ambuehl
01-01-2011, 11:56 AM
This running game is not a product of Gailey, but Gailey is not a miserable running game coordinator. Hell, the Bills have a mostly inexperienced OL that is also lacking talent in several position, and they've averaged almost 4.4 YPC with Fred ****ing Jackson as the feature back.

He made LJ look like an NFL back in the second half of 2008.

If you follow Gailey's NFL coaching career you'll see significant parts of our running game in all his former teams. The stretches, the misdirections, lateral movement of the line, and draws are things he's used everywhere he's been. Wherever he's been Gailey has consistently been able to run the ball, and yes, he deserves a ton of credit for the things he's doing with that buffalo offense.

The Bad Guy
01-01-2011, 11:57 AM
Henne's problem is his talent, offensive play calling and running game inconsistency, not his coaching.

If that weren't the case than guys like Dick Curl wouldn't be able to do with Sam Bradford what they're able to do.

If you knew anything about playing football or coaching football you'd realize that. Sorry, but you can't learn the game from the media.

I don't learn the game from the media. You so desperately try to have an "edge" and to come up with such bullshit theories to try to separeate yourself from what just about everyone else thinks.

You suck. It's not my fault or anyone else's.

BigMeatballDave
01-01-2011, 11:58 AM
I'll be honest, this is what scares me:

We play a much tougher schedule next year. If Weis leaves and Cassel takes a dive, his regression will be blamed on the coordinator rather than a solid NFL schedule. Then, this will be used as the excuse to pass on a QB in '12, which could perpetuate a cycle of mediocrity.
Unless we get Josh McDaniels IMHO this is devastating.Good God. Take a pill. You're freaking out about something that may not be happening.

Pawnmower
01-01-2011, 11:58 AM
Weis came in. His number one priority was to "fix the QB".

Cassel is playing better than even the most staunch supporter thought he would at the beginning of the season. You have to figure that Cassel's improvement this season is about the maximum possible. Weis has done about the best anyone could do in developing Cassel.

Now you are going to change the OC. Cassel won't improve at a faster rate, because he's improving about as fast as a QB can improve. So about the most we could hope for would be to break even on a OC swap. Cassel may still improve, but by changing the OC, you open a very real possibility that he will regress.

I agree with the vast majority of this quote...I don't see how we could be better off....we just have to hope we can keep the progression going at a decent rate.

The Bad Guy
01-01-2011, 11:58 AM
If you follow Gailey's NFL coaching career you'll see significant parts of our running game in all his former teams. The stretches, the misdirections, lateral movement of the line, and draws are things he's used everywhere he's been. Wherever he's been Gailey has consistently been able to run the ball, and yes, he deserves a ton of credit for the things he's doing with that buffalo offense.

It's just unreal that we had all these past awesome pieces like Chan Gailey and Jason Babin, but we just couldn't go anywhere.

Mr. Laz
01-01-2011, 11:59 AM
Because, believe it or not, Haley and McDaniels are more compatible in terms of offensive philosophy than Haley and Weis.funny because that's EXACTLY what Haley said about Weis when he was hired.

also the offense was much more aggressive under weis than haley

The Bad Guy
01-01-2011, 12:00 PM
I don't give a shit that the schedule is tougher next year, I don't care who our coordinator might be next year, I don't care who we could potentially draft in the 2012 draft.

I care about winning next weekend.

Why are we even talking about the tough schedule or the 2012 draft?

'Hamas' Jenkins
01-01-2011, 12:00 PM
Good God. Take a pill. You're freaking out about something that may not be happening.

I'm not freaking out in the least.

Sometimes this board cracks me up.

"Ow. Stubbed my toe there."

"JESUS FUCKING CHRIST WOULD YOU CALM DOWN!! IT'S NOT THE END OF THE FUCKING WORLD, STOP OVERFUCKING EXAGGERATING YOU FUCKING CRAZY BASTARD!! FUCK!!!!"

'Hamas' Jenkins
01-01-2011, 12:03 PM
I don't give a shit that the schedule is tougher next year, I don't care who our coordinator might be next year, I don't care who we could potentially draft in the 2012 draft.

I care about winning next weekend.

Why are we even talking about the tough schedule or the 2012 draft?

:facepalm:

Because that's where this could have an effect, if it has one at all. Weis isn't going to call the next game any differently than he would otherwise, and the team isn't going to melt into a pool of candle wax because their OCis leaving next year.

The title of the thread that you are in is "How much will losing Weis hurt?"

It is within the realm of possibility that it could not hurt next weekend but obfuscate things down the road.

Mr. Laz
01-01-2011, 12:03 PM
Your speculation is top notch.

Could you come up with another mantra besides "Haley is the devil".

You're relucatant to accept any other explanation. Not the fact that Weis has been an OC only with defensive head coaches and had full reign of the offense. Nope, couldn't be that reason. It's all Haley.
and your rationalization is top notch

bottom line - 2 years, 3 different coordinators (insert whatever bullshit reason you want *here*)

Gracie Dean
01-01-2011, 12:06 PM
why leave the NFL OC job for a College OC job? I just don't understand I guess.

Unless there is promise for a Head Coach in the future, to me it is a step backwards

B_Ambuehl
01-01-2011, 12:07 PM
I don't learn the game from the media. You so desperately try to have an "edge" and to come up with such bullshit theories to try to separeate yourself from what just about everyone else thinks.

You suck. It's not my fault or anyone else's.

You run your mouth a lot here but I've yet to see one indication from you that you have any experience in any capacity on a football field. You don't know playcalling, you don't know schemes, and you don't know anything other than what you can learn following the media. If I'm wrong feel free to prove yourself.

Your comments about Chad Henne are telling. Your comment is Henne sux because he has shitty QB coaching. Only a media following idiot would say that. It's the same coaching that made Chad Pennington one of the leagues top rated QBs in '08. Henne probably won't ever be a good QB but you certainly can't blame it on the fact that he has shitty QB coaching.

Mr. Laz
01-01-2011, 12:11 PM
why leave the NFL OC job for a College OC job? I just don't understand I guess.

Unless there is promise for a Head Coach in the future, to me it is a step backwards
the rumor is that Weis and Haley can't co-exist so Weis is leaving.

Gracie Dean
01-01-2011, 12:14 PM
the rumor is that Weis and Haley can't co-exist so Weis is leaving.

so nothing has been confirmed? Just speculation?

I hate it that it is happening right now. We need to focus and not have distractions.

TEX
01-01-2011, 12:21 PM
Cassel was terrible last year.

Weis came in. His number one priority was to "fix the QB".

Cassel is playing better than even the most staunch supporter thought he would at the beginning of the season. You have to figure that Cassel's improvement this season is about the maximum possible. Weis has done about the best anyone could do in developing Cassel.

Now you are going to change the OC. Cassel won't improve at a faster rate, because he's improving about as fast as a QB can improve. So about the most we could hope for would be to break even on a OC swap. Cassel may still improve, but by changing the OC, you open a very real possibility that he will regress.

This.

dirk digler
01-01-2011, 12:21 PM
Good God. Take a pill. You're freaking out about something that may not be happening.

I am not freaking out all I said was if he leaves and we don't get McDaniels or even an equivalent OC than it will be devastating especially for Cassel.

jAZ
01-01-2011, 12:23 PM
We should be at least as disappointed at losing Weis as OC as we were excited to have him. And probably more so given the proven success he has had here.

Stinger
01-01-2011, 12:26 PM
so nothing has been confirmed? Just speculation?

I hate it that it is happening right now. We need to focus and not have distractions.

We???

I never get this line of thinking think that this is a detriment to the focus of a team. We as fans have all this time to dissect and hash, rehash, and re-rehash. Players and coaches don't have much time to worry about it because they have work on other things.

Question which is worse to focus on:

Trying to game plan a tough team, reworking a game plan with one or more than one of your top players hurt, or dealing with a OC that is possibly leaving AFTER the season. Hint: One has no bearing on this season where all the focus IS on.

The Bad Guy
01-01-2011, 12:34 PM
and your rationalization is top notch

bottom line - 2 years, 3 different coordinators (insert whatever bullshit reason you want *here*)

Yep, it's really blown up in Haley's face. 10-5 AFC West Champs.

Crybaby.

The Bad Guy
01-01-2011, 12:35 PM
the rumor is that Weis and Haley can't co-exist so Weis is leaving.

There's another rumor that Weis wants full control of the offense.

But Laz won't discuss that because it doesn't jive with his nonsense.

FAX
01-01-2011, 12:35 PM
Gailey's offense is not the one Haley wanted to run ... he's the head coach and he gets to decide. Besides, Gailey was a hold-over. I don't count him. Especially since he was let go so early on.

As for Weis (and even though we can expect this sort of thing as we become more successful), if all this is true, I am truly pissed that he let this happen at this point in time when our focus needs to be on the Faiders and then the playoffs. Frankly, it's a pretty classless move. I hope the door hits hits fat ass on the way out.

FAX

DeezNutz
01-01-2011, 12:35 PM
Why in the fuck are we counting the firing of Penderwaste against Haley? Romeo wouldn't/couldn't sign last year, and we had to have someone. Thank goodness we moved on from that sack as quickly as possible.

The Bad Guy
01-01-2011, 12:39 PM
Why in the **** are we counting the firing of Penderwaste against Haley? Romeo wouldn't/couldn't sign last year, and we had to have someone. Thank goodness we moved on from that sack as quickly as possible.

Because Laz wants to include him.

cdcox
01-01-2011, 12:44 PM
Why in the **** are we counting the firing of Penderwaste against Haley? Romeo wouldn't/couldn't sign last year, and we had to have someone. Thank goodness we moved on from that sack as quickly as possible.

Yeah, I don't count Gailey or Pendergast against Haley. Those are on Hunt as far as I'm concerned. He is the one that caused the delay in firing Herm. By the time that Haley came on board, virtually all of the good coordinator talent for 2009 was locked up. I think Hunt also played a hand in giving Gailey a chance.

Weis is the first coordinator that goes on Haley's tab, as far as I'm concerned.

RINGLEADER
01-01-2011, 12:44 PM
DID YOU SEE LAST YEAR O LINE????????????? It was god awful

This is the point that seems to be lost in this bro-ha-ha. We have a better team with better players who understand HALEY'S system better. Any OC would look at where we're at and salivate over what he has to work with.

If Weis can't co-exist with Haley then he should move on. It's not like there is some Al Saunders to Herm Edwards Offense System change coming.

stevieray
01-01-2011, 12:51 PM
I really wished they would have kept this under wraps, cuase it's going to be considered a chink in the armor, and some are going to jump on that like Bowser on Katy Perry.


...just pisspound Oakland and then break the damn playoff curse.

dirk digler
01-01-2011, 12:56 PM
There's another rumor that Weis wants full control of the offense.

But Laz won't discuss that because it doesn't jive with his nonsense.

If that is true then why not let him have it? It is not like he hasn't earned the right. We have all seen what Haley does in charge of the offense.

The Bad Guy
01-01-2011, 12:59 PM
If that is true then why not let him have it? It is not like he hasn't earned the right. We have all seen what Haley does in charge of the offense.

Haley wants input and he wants it to be a collaborative effort. He's never, ever going to just tell someone run the offense and I'll stay out of it.

Vermeil didn't stay out of the offense with Saunders.

dirk digler
01-01-2011, 01:08 PM
Haley wants input and he wants it to be a collaborative effort. He's never, ever going to just tell someone run the offense and I'll stay out of it.

Vermeil didn't stay out of the offense with Saunders.

I highly doubt Weis is leaving because of Haley's input because all HC's have input in offense and Defense.

The Bad Guy
01-01-2011, 01:10 PM
I highly doubt Weis is leaving because of Haley's input because all HC's have input in offense and Defense.

Weis wants full reign. Haley wants to collaborate and make suggestions and have a big final say in things.

All defensive HC's don't really have input on the offense. They just let the coordinator run things. Similar to what Vermeil did with Robinson and Gunther. He stayed out of defensive meetings, and just talked to them about the gameplan at the end of the week.

Weis has never had to get approval from anyone.

dirk digler
01-01-2011, 01:23 PM
Weis wants full reign. Haley wants to collaborate and make suggestions and have a big final say in things.

All defensive HC's don't really have input on the offense. They just let the coordinator run things. Similar to what Vermeil did with Robinson and Gunther. He stayed out of defensive meetings, and just talked to them about the gameplan at the end of the week.

Weis has never had to get approval from anyone.

That maybe true but I have heard Vermeil say he sat in defensive meetings and gave input and I heard Haley say that earlier this year. I guess the difference is they didn't over rule play calls or make suggestions during the game like they do on offense.

alanm
01-01-2011, 01:28 PM
Depends on who replaces him. Time will tell. I'm not too concerned about it, really.I bet Dick Curl would come back for a bag of Doritos.

Brainiac
01-01-2011, 01:45 PM
It's pretty freaking ridiculous how some of the posters here have their panties in a bunch because of the possibility of Weis leaving. I swear, some people just aren't happy if they can't find something to panic about and bitch about.

Haley has done a miraculous job of turning this team around. He should be given the benefit of the doubt: he has earned it.

The only concern I've read that makes any sense at all is the concern that Weis does a great job of developing quarterbacks, and we certainly don't want to see Matt Cassel regress if Haley leaves.

The best comparison I can think of (and this goes back a few years) is how great Charley Lau was as a hitting coach, and how George Brett and Hal McRae (along with Joe Rudi and Sal Bando) gave him all of the credit for teaching them how to be good hitters. When Lau left the A's, Rudi and Bando continued to be good hitters. And when Lau left the Royals, Brett and McRae continued to be great hitters.

If Weis leaves and Cassel regresses, that's on Cassel.

ChiefsandO'sfan
01-01-2011, 01:49 PM
THE bigger ? is who the hell is gonna replace this man? Bernie Parmalee enters his first season as Kansas City’s tight ends coach in 2010. He returns to the NFL coaching ranks after spending the past five seasons working for current Chiefs offensive coordinator Charlie Weis at Notre Dame (2005-09).

The Bad Guy
01-01-2011, 01:52 PM
Parmalee will go to Florida with Weis.

Micjones
01-01-2011, 02:40 PM
Depends on who would replace Weis.
If it were McDaniels I don't think losing him matters much.

And I'm not sure one disagreement between he and Haley means they couldn't work together. McDaniels won't be in line for another HC job anytime soon. He'd transition well here in Kansas City. Familiar offense. He's worked with Cassel before. It'd be a great look for him.

chiefzilla1501
01-01-2011, 02:46 PM
I think all that QB development talk is over-rated. All players in the NFL are overcoached, particularly QBs. What primarily affects a QBs development is their pass protection and playcalling. Haley's offense (with proper pass protection) is definitely QB friendly. If the pass protection continues to improve and the running game remains solid there's no reason he'll drop off. The main point I wanted to make is the foundation of the offense (the running game) isn't gonna change because it wasn't unique to Weis (or Haley) in the first place. I'd be surprised if Cassel's QB rating next year is as good as it was this year but the passing game overall should be more effective. That QB rating deal isn't really a good barometer into the overall effectiveness of the attack IMO.

Also, it's ultra obvious Haley is too much of a control freak to feel comfortable giving up the offense. It was painful watching him on the sidelines fret over calls. I'd be surprised if the next OC isn't a yes man and even more surprised if Haley's not calling plays next year.

You're and idiot if you didn't see clear, visible improvement out of Cassel due to coaching, and it has nothing to do with pass protection magically showing up after the Denver game.

DeezNutz
01-01-2011, 02:50 PM
Vermeil didn't stay out of the offense with Saunders.

This is an interesting point of comparison. At that point in his career, though, I wonder if Grandpa tried to be as heavily involved as a much younger (and far more inexperienced and insecure, to a certain extent) Haley might be?

I am vaguely remembering that Grandpa noted that as he aged, he tried to be less of a micromanager of his assistants, one of the reasons that led to burnout in Philly.

Could be that we're seeing a growing Haley. As he gets more and more comfortable (and successful, we hope) as a HC, I expect that he'll chill some and not need to be as involved.

The Bad Guy
01-01-2011, 03:01 PM
This is an interesting point of comparison. At that point in his career, though, I wonder if Grandpa tried to be as heavily involved as a much younger (and far more inexperienced and insecure, to a certain extent) Haley might be?

I am vaguely remembering that Grandpa noted that as he aged, he tried to be less of a micromanager of his assistants, one of the reasons that led to burnout in Philly.

Could be that we're seeing a growing Haley. As he gets more and more comfortable (and successful, we hope) as a HC, I expect that he'll chill some and not need to be as involved.

I think as success comes, you'll see him back off some. I don't blame Haley one bit for being involved heavily. If he fucks up this chance, he's not getting another one.

Count Zarth
01-01-2011, 03:07 PM
I don't think Cassel is going to turn back into a pumpkin.

Mostly I'm worried about losing Weis' knowledge of how to get our players into matchups they can win consistently. I think he made more out of Bowe, Moeaki and a bunch of street trash than just about anyone. He used Charles perfectly this year.

Hopefully we bring in another RB and WR, maybe another lineman or two and it offsets his loss.

DeezNutz
01-01-2011, 03:10 PM
I think as success comes, you'll see him back off some. I don't blame Haley one bit for being involved heavily. If he ****s up this chance, he's not getting another one.

Absolutely. But this is where a hire like Weis becomes a really bad one. His resume warrants trust from the HC. Sure, the latter can be involved, but you don't bring in a guy with Weis' credentials to micromanage.

If you want to do that, you need someone else, which is the direction we're going, apparently.

Honestly, I would have thought that this type of "problem" would have been addressed by Pioli before Weis was ever brought on board.

chiefzilla1501
01-01-2011, 03:26 PM
It's going to hurt. Weis gets a lot of shit because his playcalling is conventional. But it's brilliant in its simplicity. Great chance his replacement is a big step down, IMO.

Sweet Daddy Hate
01-01-2011, 03:37 PM
I hope they are right, but I truly dont see how people can say 'this wont hurt us at all.' I think it will be a set-back, and isnt coming at a very good time.

That's how I feel about it.

YayMike
01-01-2011, 03:38 PM
Another note to add to all the "real" comments, and not the B.S. is that depending who we get that could be 3 offensive SYSTEMS in 3 years. Let's hope we do choose someone who won't change too much...

Sweet Daddy Hate
01-01-2011, 03:38 PM
Absolutely. But this is where a hire like Weis becomes a really bad one. His resume warrants trust from the HC. Sure, the latter can be involved, but you don't bring in a guy with Weis' credentials to micromanage.

If you want to do that, you need someone else, which is the direction we're going, apparently.

Honestly, I would have thought that this type of "problem" would have been addressed by Pioli before Weis was ever brought on board.

No shit. THAT is the clusterfuck of this.

RINGLEADER
01-01-2011, 03:44 PM
Another note to add to all the "real" comments, and not the B.S. is that depending who we get that could be 3 offensive SYSTEMS in 3 years. Let's hope we do choose someone who won't change too much...

Huh?

Brock
01-01-2011, 03:45 PM
BFD. I don't see anything about this offense that screams "Weis". Sure, Cassel improved and Bowe improved, but why wouldn't that have happened anyway?

chiefzilla1501
01-01-2011, 03:46 PM
BFD. I don't see anything about this offense that screams "Weis". Sure, Cassel improved and Bowe improved, but why wouldn't that have happened anyway?

That's what happens when you judge an offense by bells, whistles, and trickeration.

Weis is a phenomenal playcaller. I'm hoping the rumors are untrue, but it's not looking that way. He will be missed. But the team will move on.

Brock
01-01-2011, 03:49 PM
That's what happens when you judge an offense by bells, whistles, and trickeration.

Weis is a phenomenal playcaller. I'm hoping the rumors are untrue, but it's not looking that way. He will be missed. But the team will move on.

Your condescension is noted, but you didn't really explain anything to me about what Weis is bringing to the table.

Mr. Laz
01-01-2011, 03:50 PM
Charlie Weis' Son Reportedly Headed To Florida, Too

http://cdn0.sbnation.com/profile_images/240996/headshot_tiny.jpg by Joel Thorman (http://www.sbnation.com/users/Joel%20Thorman) on Jan 1, 2011 2:30 PM PST (http://www.arrowheadpride.com/2011/1/1/1907838/charlie-weis-son-reportedly-headed-to-florida-too) in 2010 Kansas City Chiefs Season (http://www.arrowheadpride.com/section/2010-campaign)


http://cdn2.sbnation.com/entry_photo_images/795222/42284_senior_bowl_practice_football.jpg (http://www.arrowheadpride.com/photos/charlie-weis-son-reportedly-headed-to-florida-too)
More photos (http://www.arrowheadpride.com/photos/charlie-weis-son-reportedly-headed-to-florida-too) Dave Martin - AP
Browse more photos (http://www.arrowheadpride.com/photos/charlie-weis-son-reportedly-headed-to-florida-too)

We've heard all kinds of speculation on the reasons Charlie Weis is "likely" leaving the Kansas City Chiefs (http://www.sbnation.com/nfl/teams/kansas-city-chiefs) to assume the offensive coordinator position at the University of Florida.

810 WHB's The Program has a nice scoop (http://twitter.com/theprogramkc/status/21320799315034112) that possibly gives us a reason for his exit -- his son is headed to Gainesville, too.

They report that Weis' son, who is graduating high school this year (and probably didn't think he'd ever end up on Arrowhead Pride), was originally headed to the University of Texas to work under Will Muschamp in the football office while going to school. Now that Muschamp has been hired by the Gators as head coach, Weis' son is now headed to Florida, according to The Program's report.

And so is Weis, apparently.

Muschamp was hired three weeks ago on Dec. 11 and ESPN's Chris Mortensen reported that Muschamp contacted the Chiefs this week (http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=5974715) seeking permission to talk to Weis.
(H/T Larryemcdaniel)

RINGLEADER
01-01-2011, 04:13 PM
Charlie Weis' Son Reportedly Headed To Florida, Too

http://cdn0.sbnation.com/profile_images/240996/headshot_tiny.jpg by Joel Thorman (http://www.sbnation.com/users/Joel%20Thorman) on Jan 1, 2011 2:30 PM PST (http://www.arrowheadpride.com/2011/1/1/1907838/charlie-weis-son-reportedly-headed-to-florida-too) in 2010 Kansas City Chiefs Season (http://www.arrowheadpride.com/section/2010-campaign)


http://cdn2.sbnation.com/entry_photo_images/795222/42284_senior_bowl_practice_football.jpg (http://www.arrowheadpride.com/photos/charlie-weis-son-reportedly-headed-to-florida-too)
More photos (http://www.arrowheadpride.com/photos/charlie-weis-son-reportedly-headed-to-florida-too) Dave Martin - AP
Browse more photos (http://www.arrowheadpride.com/photos/charlie-weis-son-reportedly-headed-to-florida-too)

We've heard all kinds of speculation on the reasons Charlie Weis is "likely" leaving the Kansas City Chiefs (http://www.sbnation.com/nfl/teams/kansas-city-chiefs) to assume the offensive coordinator position at the University of Florida.

810 WHB's The Program has a nice scoop (http://twitter.com/theprogramkc/status/21320799315034112) that possibly gives us a reason for his exit -- his son is headed to Gainesville, too.

They report that Weis' son, who is graduating high school this year (and probably didn't think he'd ever end up on Arrowhead Pride), was originally headed to the University of Texas to work under Will Muschamp in the football office while going to school. Now that Muschamp has been hired by the Gators as head coach, Weis' son is now headed to Florida, according to The Program's report.

And so is Weis, apparently.

Muschamp was hired three weeks ago on Dec. 11 and ESPN's Chris Mortensen reported that Muschamp contacted the Chiefs this week (http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=5974715) seeking permission to talk to Weis.
(H/T Larryemcdaniel)

The only way I'll come there is if you give my kid a scholarship.

Nepotism...gotta love it!

If Weis' heart isn't in it he should go and fail in the college ranks again...

JD10367
01-01-2011, 04:17 PM
Cassel was terrible last year.

Weis came in. His number one priority was to "fix the QB".

Cassel is playing better than even the most staunch supporter thought he would at the beginning of the season. You have to figure that Cassel's improvement this season is about the maximum possible. Weis has done about the best anyone could do in developing Cassel.

Now you are going to change the OC. Cassel won't improve at a faster rate, because he's improving about as fast as a QB can improve. So about the most we could hope for would be to break even on a OC swap. Cassel may still improve, but by changing the OC, you open a very real possibility that he will regress.

I think Cassel was subpar. "Terrible" is a bit strong. QB rating was 25th (still better than soe QBs supposedly better than him: Ryan Fitzpatrick, Matt Sanchez, Matt Stafford, and Josh Freeman). But in total yardage he was 20th (better than golden boy Matt Ryan) and 21st in TDs (just below Matt Hasselbeck... and, like Hasselbeck, he had an equal number of TDs and INTs). And I still don't attribute his 2010 turnaround solely to Weis. Weis helped, sure. But I think Cassel would've improved regardless, with another year under his belt, and more weaponry around him. And who's to say he's suddenly going to regress? It's not like, when Weis leaves, everything Cassel learned leaves with him. I would assume (and certainly hope) that the improvements in Cassel's game remain.

JD10367
01-01-2011, 04:19 PM
Absolutely. But this is where a hire like Weis becomes a really bad one. His resume warrants trust from the HC. Sure, the latter can be involved, but you don't bring in a guy with Weis' credentials to micromanage.

If you want to do that, you need someone else, which is the direction we're going, apparently.

Honestly, I would have thought that this type of "problem" would have been addressed by Pioli before Weis was ever brought on board.

It's very possible that all parties involved knew that it was going to be a rocky, brief, shotgun wedding. Maybe Pioli, Haley, and Weis all agreed, "Let's give it a year, see how it goes."

KC Tattoo
01-01-2011, 04:56 PM
Well, I'd rather lose Weis than Crennel. OC I think are easier to replace than DC. Really wish they could have waited till after the season to anounce it, so we don't have this as a distraction for the team. That part kind of sucks.

I wouldn't be surprised that more coaches head to the college spot becouse of the looming lock out next season. That could be also another reason Weis is going back to college?

I love what Crennel has done for our defense. We keep plays in front and not giving up the big play like we did a bunch last um many years. I think Weis can be replaced with out losing the team but Crennel has this defense playing good and would be harder to replace for credibility for the HC. Jmho.

Sweet Daddy Hate
01-01-2011, 05:02 PM
Well, I'd rather lose Weis than Crennel. OC I think are easier to replace than DC. Really wish they could have waited till after the season to anounce it, so we don't have this as a distraction for the team. That part kind of sucks.

I wouldn't be surprised that more coaches head to the college spot becouse of the looming lock out next season. That could be also another reason Weis is going back to college?

I love what Crennel has done for our defense. We keep plays in front and not giving up the big play like we did a bunch last um many years. I think Weis can be replaced with out losing the team but Crennel has this defense playing good and would be harder to replace for credibility for the HC. Jmho.

Agreed.

Extra Point
01-01-2011, 05:26 PM
Charlie Weis' Son Reportedly Headed To Florida, Too

The ultimate in micromanagment?

Don't think if Weis left we'd slide back. I do think that McDaniels would backbite; I don't think Haley could trust McDaniels, for more than two seasons. Who would want more autonomy between the two? McDaniels.

Sure, we'll make a good go at the playoffs. We're more surprised than anyone it. This is a product of matching plays to personnel skills, and adaptation between coaches and players. (Such as Charles being more effective running off-tackle and effective in the flat, Jones more effective running in the A gaps, better pass blocking, Moeaki used for short-midrange passes, fewer steps in the dropback, Bowe in the slant pattern, spreading the ball to other receivers.)

I just can't see Weis leaving. If he does after the playoffs, Pioli will be picking the next OC, not Haley. Like everything else, we get to live with and cuss and discuss, who gets hired and fired. (As folks noted above, Crennel leaving would be more a setback than Weis.)

TEX
01-01-2011, 07:07 PM
Shoot - maybe the guy just wants to live in Florida...:shrug:
I honestly think his influence will be missed. However, I feel the Chiefs will improve their offensive personel. So whoever they hire will have a lot of talent to work with.

KCChiefsFan88
01-01-2011, 09:14 PM
The Chiefs will be okay without Weis. My personal choice would be Josh McDaniels as the next OC... familiarity with the offense, comfort level with Cassel, etc. but there are obviously other factors at play that complicate McDaniels coaching in KC.

The one name I absolutely do NOT want anywhere near KC is Dan Henning.

chiefzilla1501
01-01-2011, 10:08 PM
Your condescension is noted, but you didn't really explain anything to me about what Weis is bringing to the table.

Brought the #1 rushing attack to the Chiefs and the kind of control-the-clock offense that has led to our defensive successes. He's done that everywhere he's been. And given Weis' track record of fixing QBs, despite reports about shared efforts, I can guarantee that's more on Weis than on Haley. If you read enough about how he grooms QBs, he is huge on coaching QBs the art of leading the huddle and Cassel's confidence is a huge reason he's improved as much as he has.

Weis' offense comes off as simple, and because it's simple, people don't understand what he does. I've heard R2P2 a few times and it drives me crazy. If you read up on his scheme, you'll find that his trick is to run multiple plays out of the same offensive grouping. And he does it based on matchup and based on what he believes will set up the next playcall. That's why we've seen that same Moeaki screen 1,000 times. That's why we've seen the same 3 or 4 plays run off the McCluster end around, some resulting in an end around, many of the time resulting in a successful fake. And they all work because for all its simplicity, defenses aren't expecting it and because Weis has thought through the call 20 steps ahead. You can see it in the way that defenses bite the wrong way on seemingly obvious playcalls. These are all disciplines we did not see in Haley's offense last year. There isn't a shadow of a doubt that this offense has heavy influence from Weis. You see it in the way this team has become terrific in the running game, the screen game, we call a ton more playaction than last year, and our offense has become very effective horizontally. You see it in the way our RBs are becoming weapons in the passing game. Hell, Moeaki is living proof--look at how Weis used Watson and Graham, and you'll see Weis' fingerprints all over his development.

The problem is that people want trickery and Weis doesn't offer that. The Chiefs will miss him. He's genius in his simplicity.