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booger
01-15-2011, 11:33 PM
Future of Chiefs’ offense rests with Haley’s decision on coordinator
By KENT BABB | THE KANSAS CITY STAR

M att Cassel sat in a room this past week, fewer than 24 hours after the Chiefs were eliminated in the first round of the playoffs. Occasionally, his eyes would drift to the mounted television cycling through the weekend’s playoff highlights.

Cassel was asked if he had seen the footage from his game. He shook his head. Was he interested in seeing it?

“No, not really,” he said. “It’ll probably take a few weeks to watch that.”

So much went wrong last Sunday, when Baltimore walloped the Chiefs 30-7 at Arrowhead Stadium. Much of what the Chiefs had accomplished during the season was now shrouded in doubt, and the most troubling question was this: Were the team’s final two games, both losses, so difficult to watch — and even harder to relive — because coach Todd Haley’s coaching staff was in disorder?

Offensive coordinator Charlie Weis agreed to terms with the University of Florida before the Chiefs’ regular-season finale, and a team that relied on rhythm and familiarity as much as anything proceeded to play two of its most uninspired contests of the season.

Cassel looked mostly lost in those games, and his passer rating was 19.1 against Oakland and 20.4 against Baltimore. He threw five interceptions in those two games — as many as he’d totaled in 14 previous starts. Although Haley called it a “coincidence” that the offense had two of its worst showings after Weis’ plans to depart came to light, something was wrong. And the repair would have to wait for the offseason.

“You do start from scratch,” Cassel said.

That doesn’t sound like good news for a team that finally curbed a sour period in its history with a 10-6 regular-season record. The Chiefs have entered another critical offseason in their rebuilding process, and perhaps the most important decision of Haley’s young coaching career will be who he chooses to succeed Weis, and how much influence and autonomy the new coordinator will be given.

Haley said this past week that he’ll consider calling the offensive plays himself next season, and that could make things more complicated. Although he called some plays this season, Haley has said often that he and the Chiefs are at their best with two strong coordinators. Now, he seems willing to tinker with a formula that, at least for one season, worked.

“I will consider anything,” Haley said. “I will not discount anything right now.”

On that day in the small room with the mounted television, Cassel said he trusted Haley to make the correct decision. But Cassel acknowledged that his continued development, his coach’s efficiency, and the team’s future depend in part on Haley’s next move.

• • •

When Haley decided to hand over play-calling duties after years of doing it himself, it wasn’t easy. But he realized that his job description wasn’t what it once was. That meant passing the keys to the offense — one of his most cherished aspects of this game — to someone else.

“Hopefully,” Haley said when it was over, “I did a better job of being a complete head coach.”

Dick Vermeil won both ways. In Philadelphia, he controlled every centimeter of his offense. In St. Louis, he handed off to Mike Martz and promised he wouldn’t interfere — much. Vermeil reached the Super Bowl in both places, using both methods.

Other offensive-minded coaches call their own plays — New Orleans’ Sean Payton and San Diego’s Norv Turner are among them — but it can be a risky enterprise. With each passing year, coaches seem more willing to delegate. The growing demands have made it more difficult than ever to focus on a singular part of the game.

When Vermeil led the Eagles to the Super Bowl after the 1980 season, he did it by controlling everything on offense. Now, Vermeil said he realizes that he wasn’t mature enough as a coach to understand the value of delegating.

“I was just too immature to recognize the contributions of other people,” said Vermeil, who in 1980 was 44 years old, the same age Haley will be when next season begins. “I had to be the guy, you know?”

Vermeil said taking on double duty is a gamble. For it to pay off, he said, a coach has to fully trust his assistants to run meetings, work with players and organize practices and game plans.

“Like your right arm,” Vermeil said.

The worry with Haley is that he, like Vermeil once did, has difficulty handing full control to others. If his orders aren’t carried out to his exact specifications, he’ll take over.

“If Todd feels strongly about something,” Cassel said, “he’ll speak up and say I want this or I want that. That’s kind of how we go.”

When the 2010 season began, Haley had a plan for Weis. The man who coordinated three offenses that won Super Bowls would now be in charge of Haley’s baby — the vision he carried from Arizona to Kansas City.

But toward the end of the season, Haley was calling upward of 15 plays per game. He drew attention for throwing conventional fourth-down philosophy into the wastebasket, and whether he was being stubborn or innovative, Haley was doing things his way.

Vermeil understands that. When he first handed his offense to a coordinator, Jerry Rhome, he couldn’t keep his distance. And it had consequences. Vermeil might have been an offensive mastermind, but with him meddling in Rhone’s plans, the Rams were ranked in the league’s bottom half on offense in 1997 and finished 5-11.

“I interfered just enough,” Vermeil said, “to screw him up.”

He brought in Martz in his third season, vowed to let his coordinator do his thing, and sure enough, St. Louis not only reached the Super Bowl, but won it on the strength of one of the most potent offenses in NFL history.

“I let him coach,” Vermeil said of Martz. “The best thing I could do.”

• • •

For the Chiefs, the most important thing now is to find someone who fits within that specific set of expectations, abilities and demands — whatever Haley decides those are.

If Haley insists on calling plays, not every qualified coordinator candidate will be willing to cede that power. Others simply aren’t experienced enough, or will fall short of what the team is looking for.

Haley has said he’ll make the final call, leaning on the experience of general manager Scott Pioli. But the pressure’s on Haley to find the right fit.

“Every coaching situation,” said Charley Casserly, the former longtime NFL executive, “whether it’s your first, second or 10th year, your staff is the most critical decision you ever make.”

If a prospective coordinator’s game-day role has yet to be determined, the team isn’t willing to budge on this: The Chiefs want a coach with a background in the passing game. They realize Cassel needs further tutoring, and that can only come from someone who has studied and worked within the belly of a pass offense.

That’s Haley’s background, but he’s one of the few Chiefs coaches from that track. Only quality-control coach Nick Sirianni, who the Chiefs say is talented but not yet experienced enough to be a viable coordinator candidate, fits that profile.

Haley said he wouldn’t rule out promoting another coach to the coordinator slot, but the most likely names — line coach Bill Muir and assistant head coach Maurice Carthon — have better understanding of the running game.

Cassel acknowledged that although he improved in 2010, he needs a strong voice to continue his progress.

“It’s important,” he said, “to bring in somebody that is trying to push you to become better and watches you and has an opinion about what you’re doing.”

The Chiefs had targeted Mike McCoy, the 38-year-old Broncos offensive coordinator. But he will reportedly remain in Denver after being reunited with coach John Fox, whom McCoy worked with for six seasons in Carolina.

Last year, Haley got his man in Weis. This season, it won’t be so simple.

But Casserly said that in these processes, all teams have additional names on their short lists. But Haley might find that his best candidate is the one he sees looking back at him in the mirror.

“You methodically go to your next choice and adjust your thinking,” Casserly said, “Sometimes you have to wait and see how things sift out before a guy becomes available, and you have to interview a number of people. And you may come right back to the fact that the best person for this is myself.”

• • •

If Haley chooses to again take on the offense, as he did after firing Chan Gailey 13 days before the 2009 season began, he’ll be taking one of the great risks of his career.

That season, which was his first as a head coach, Haley said he was unable to focus enough on the Chiefs’ defense and special teams because he was continually running in and out of offensive meetings. He was responsible for every detail of the offense, and things slipped past him. Haley admitted this season that he was more comfortable with Weis by his side in his second year.

“Everybody can speculate on what Todd needs to do,” said former longtime coordinator Al Saunders, “but only he can know: What do I need for this team, to lead it now to more success than we had this year? He’ll have to answer that question.”

The Chiefs believe that, regardless of whom the coordinator is, the offense won’t change much next season. The foundation is set, the vision is rooted, and if Haley does hire a coordinator, it’ll be someone the Chiefs can shape in their image — not the other way around.

Haley understands how significant these next few days and weeks will be. Was the difference between 2009 and 2010 really affected that much by the presence of a strong coordinator? Or can Haley really handle it all?

Maybe the perfect fit is out there somewhere.

“I don’t think it is ever easy to make decisions in this league,” he said. “But I have guys that will definitely help me. I just want to get it right.”
http://www.kansascity.com/2011/01/15/2586630/future-of-chiefs-offense-rests.html

Count Zarth
01-15-2011, 11:38 PM
It would help if Cassel was a strong enough presence that he could run his own offense.

Good quarterbacks are successful no matter the coordinator. How many coordinators has Brady been through? Three? Roethlisberger? At least two?

jd1020
01-15-2011, 11:39 PM
So Cassel says its important to bring in someone with a voice to push him and the Chiefs want to bring in someone with a voice that rivals that of a mouse... I feel so much better about our QB situation.

Psyko Tek
01-15-2011, 11:57 PM
So Cassel says its important to bring in someone with a voice to push him and the Chiefs want to bring in someone with a voice that rivals that of a mouse... I feel so much better about our QB situation.

that's a fail
nfl starting QB needs a push?

BossChief
01-16-2011, 12:06 AM
Its too bad Charlie couldn't stay on for another year. Another year here and we could have groomed someone from within to take over once he left and Cassel and the staff would all be better for it.

jd1020
01-16-2011, 12:08 AM
Its too bad Charlie couldn't stay on for another year. Another year here and we could have groomed someone from within to take over once he left and Cassel and the staff would all be better for it.

1 step forward, 2 steps back. 2009 here we come!

58kcfan89
01-16-2011, 12:23 AM
God, I hope they don't screw this hire up. I know there's a lot of hate on Cassel (deservedly so) for those last two games, but the middle of the season showed that he can be good enough. Not great, certainly not elite and maybe not even above average, but he was good enough for this team to win.

My point is, if they **** up this hire, it's clear to everyone based on this article that Cassel-and by extension this team-is screwed. Please, Todd, don't mess this up. I enjoyed going to a playoff game....

Chiefs Pantalones
01-16-2011, 10:16 AM
Sadly, I hope I'm wrong, but no matter who they hire it doesn't matter. You can't put lettuce, honey mustard and tomatoes on shit and call it a salad. Cassel is shit. You don't win Super Bowls with shit.

DJJasonp
01-16-2011, 10:26 AM
God, I hope they don't screw this hire up. I know there's a lot of hate on Cassel (deservedly so) for those last two games, but the middle of the season showed that he can be good enough. Not great, certainly not elite and maybe not even above average, but he was good enough for this team to win.

My point is, if they **** up this hire, it's clear to everyone based on this article that Cassel-and by extension this team-is screwed. Please, Todd, don't mess this up. I enjoyed going to a playoff game....

Yes...but....looking back on the season....

We didnt play anybody....and I mean anybody....with a decent defense (like what we ran into against Baltimore).

San Diego...depending on the day (and if Norv has his sh*t together that day)...can be a dominating defense.

But outside of that - we didnt face anything like what we'll face with next year's schedule (Pitt, NE, Chicago, etc.)

I have a feeling we might get "better" next year, but our record could be worse.

'Hamas' Jenkins
01-16-2011, 10:29 AM
There it is. Blame Weis for the failures of the QB and OL.

I'm sure that Charlie's decision to go to UF caused Cassel to toss up all those boneheaded picks.

BossChief
01-16-2011, 10:35 AM
There it is. Blame Weis for the failures of the QB and OL.

I'm sure that Charlie's decision to go to UF caused Cassel to toss up all those boneheaded picks.I give all the credit for the progress Cassel made to Weis and his coaching. Once Cassel found that Weis was leaving for sure he looked like he did before Weis got there. No coincidence

'Hamas' Jenkins
01-16-2011, 10:36 AM
I I've all the credit for the progress Cassel made to Weis and his coaching. Once Cassel found that Weis was leaving for sure hs looked like he did before he got there. No coincidence

Don't forget the schedule.

BossChief
01-16-2011, 10:42 AM
Don't forget the schedule.

I'm not, but I'm not gonna say Cassel didn't have his moments either. In 2009 hd played poorly against everyone, good and bad, this year hd looked good against bad competition and I attribute that to the coaching job Weis did.

'Hamas' Jenkins
01-16-2011, 10:46 AM
I think we're talking past each other. I agree that Weis deserves the lion's share of the credit. I also think that was exacerbated by the fact that we played against the NFC WAC.

DaWolf
01-16-2011, 10:50 AM
It would help if Cassel was a strong enough presence that he could run his own offense.

Good quarterbacks are successful no matter the coordinator. How many coordinators has Brady been through? Three? Roethlisberger? At least two?

Very few QB's can run the offense on their own. Manning maybe.

In Brady's case, you have the same guy coaching you for the first four years or whatever of his career. After that point, you should known the offense inside and out. And you saw growth every year.

As far as Cassel, he needs someone there specifically to critique him and tell him when his footwork is off or when he's not looking off receivers or holding the ball too long. We saw growth from him this year and it's critical that continues. I think the last two games were a result of teams knowing what our weakness was as a team and having the personnel to exploit it (take Bowe out of the game, take a lead, and pressure the QB). It's obvious the offense needs upgrades to compete with the schedule coming up next year, and Cassel needs to continue getting better...

Frazod
01-16-2011, 10:51 AM
Pioli & Co. will have to make some serious moves for this team to move forward next year. The current team, Weis or no Weis, with next year's schedule is lucky to win six games. Gaping holes on the offensive line, a horrific receiving corps and terrible linebackers must be immediately addressed.

jd1020
01-16-2011, 10:52 AM
Very few QB's can run the offense on their own. Manning maybe.

In Brady's case, you have the same guy coaching you for the first four years or whatever of his career. After that point, you should known the offense inside and out. And you saw growth every year.

As far as Cassel, he needs someone there specifically to critique him and tell him when his footwork is off or when he's not looking off receivers or holding the ball too long. We saw growth from him this year and it's critical that continues. I think the last two games were a result of teams knowing what our weakness was as a team and having the personnel to exploit it (take Bowe out of the game, take a lead, and pressure the QB). It's obvious the offense needs upgrades to compete with the schedule coming up next year...

Since they exploited Cassel, is it safe to say Matt Cassel is the weakness?

Count Zarth
01-16-2011, 10:55 AM
I don't think the NFC West argument really holds much water anymore.

Cassel against the NFC West:

68-112, 60.4, 7.68 YPA, 10 TD, 2 INT

Cassel in the other 12 games:

194-338, 57.4, 6.68 YPA, 17 TD, 5 INT

Were his numbers slightly inflated? Yes. Was he a different QB? No.

milkman
01-16-2011, 11:03 AM
Since they exploited Cassel, is it safe to say Matt Cassel is the weakness?

The problem is, there are very few QBs that are consistently able to make plays when pressured.

Tom Brady has an uncanny ability to glide in the pocket to avoid pressure, making his O-Line look better than they actually are.

Aaron Rodgers has the mobility to avoid pressure, to keep his eyes downfield while on the move, and to square up to make strong accurate throws while on the run, whether he's moving to his left or right.

Ben Roethlisberger is just harder than hell to tackle.

Most of the rest are affected negatively by pressure, including Peyton Manning.

jd1020
01-16-2011, 11:05 AM
The problem is, there are very few QBs that are consistently able to make plays when pressured.

Tom Brady has an uncanny ability to glide in the pocket to avoid pressure, making his O-Line look better than they actually are.

Aaron Rodgers has the mobility to avoid pressure, to keep his eyes downfield while on the move, and to square up to make strong accurate throws while on the run, whether he's moving to his left or right.

Ben Roethlisberger is just harder than hell to tackle.

Most of the rest are affected negatively by pressure, including Peyton Manning.

Using the word consistency would mean that Cassel could make any plays under pressure.

milkman
01-16-2011, 11:09 AM
Using the word consistency would mean that Cassel could make any plays under pressure.

Did he not avoid a sack against the Seahawks and make play?

That was just one play.
There were more.

Yeah, he crapped his pants more often than not, but he did make a (very) few plays.

B_Ambuehl
01-16-2011, 11:15 AM
Cassels mind and his vision are and never will be good enough. He can make a 1 read though if he predetermines where to go with the ball before the snap or if the coordinator schemes it up for him. He can do that well enough but anything beyond that generally results in him holding onto the ball as his brain just isn't wired for cycling thru progressions at a rapid fire pace and seeing the open guy. It's really a lot like the old QB vision thing on madden. Cassel's would be about a centimeter wide with the processing speed of a commodore 64.

DaWolf
01-16-2011, 11:17 AM
Since they exploited Cassel, is it safe to say Matt Cassel is the weakness?

He's not the only weakness, and you're not replacing him anytime soon with a superstar QB who has no weakness, so we might as well focus on what he can do well and continue to upgrade the offense to compete with teams who can stop the run and take Bowe out of the game. That means getting some other receivers, especially one who can provide a down field threat and a reliable third down target, continued growth from Moeaki, and some upgrades along the line...

Chiefshrink
01-16-2011, 11:18 AM
I give all the credit for the progress Cassel made to Weis and his coaching. Once Cassel found that Weis was leaving for sure he looked like he did before Weis got there. No coincidence

Bottom line: Cassel told on himself which say's he has no confidence unless he has a "big binky" to suck on. This is not good.

I realize he does not have a whole lot of snaps from center going on 29 yrs old but he should at least have enough confidence to manage the offense regardless of who the O coord is and eliminate the "pee wee" play he resorts to when he is in panic mode.:thumb: And that is the problem is he 'still' panics:shrug:

Chiefshrink
01-16-2011, 11:20 AM
He's not the only weakness, and you're not replacing him anytime soon with a superstar QB who has no weakness, so we might as well focus on what he can do well and continue to upgrade the offense to compete with teams who can stop the run and take Bowe out of the game. That means getting some other receivers, especially one who can provide a down field threat and a reliable third down target, continued growth from Moeaki, and some upgrades along the line...

You nailed it:thumb:

jd1020
01-16-2011, 11:24 AM
He's not the only weakness, and you're not replacing him anytime soon with a superstar QB who has no weakness, so we might as well focus on what he can do well and continue to upgrade the offense to compete with teams who can stop the run and take Bowe out of the game. That means getting some other receivers, especially one who can provide a down field threat and a reliable third down target, continued growth from Moeaki, and some upgrades along the line...

I'm not buying this Cassel needs a deep threat bullshit. He had just 2 more 40+ throws in NE with Moss than he did this year. He also benefited from the most YAC than any other QB that year.

Extra Point
01-16-2011, 11:24 AM
I wouldn't mind the kind of coaching that McCarthy and Philbin do together. Could they do that with this talent? I doubt it.

“I will consider anything,” Haley said. “I will not discount anything right now.”

Pioli needs to get better weapons. There aren't that many holes beyond the obvious: LB, OL, WR, NT-- 5-6 players. That 10% of the "right 53," with the "right staff," is the challenge.

Self-criticize, modify, adapt, and improve. Rinse, lather, repeat.

Chiefshrink
01-16-2011, 11:26 AM
He's not the only weakness, and you're not replacing him anytime soon with a superstar QB who has no weakness, so we might as well focus on what he can do well and continue to upgrade the offense to compete with teams who can stop the run and take Bowe out of the game. That means getting some other receivers, especially one who can provide a down field threat and a reliable third down target, continued growth from Moeaki, and some upgrades along the line...

Since Cassel still panics I think our O-line needs addressed first then a WR. Recievers don't mean jack if you are stuck with a 'nervous Nellie' QB with an O-line that can only 'perform' against sh**ty D's.

Chiefshrink
01-16-2011, 11:32 AM
I'm not buying this Cassel needs a deep threat bullshit. He had just 2 more 40+ throws in NE with Moss than he did this year. He also benefitted from the most YAC than any other QB that year.

Weak schedule my friend. Damn guarantee you he would not have done this with playoff schedule from last yr. Just sayin. Are O only performed against below average D's. That means exactly what DaWolf said. Cassel needs another "binky" and build up those around him. OL and WR are the two most important. And D's with a good to shut down corner takes 1/2 to 2/3rds of our passing game away. Not good. We need a legit No.2 if not another No.1 WR to keep the D guessing and use McCluster in the slot a helluva alot more.:thumb: Otherwise stacking the box is all the opposing good D's have to do to stop us.

jd1020
01-16-2011, 11:37 AM
Weak schedule my friend. Damn guarantee you he would not have done this with playoff schedule from last yr. Just sayin. Are O only performed against below average D's. That means exactly what DaWolf said. Cassel needs another "binky" and build up those around him. OL and WR are the two most important. And D's with a good to shut down corner takes 1/2 to 2/3rds of our passing game away. Not good. We need a legit No.2 if not another No.1 WR to keep the D guessing and use McCluster in the slot a helluva alot more.:thumb: Otherwise stacking the box is all the opposing good D's have to do to stop us.

I'm not quite sure what you are saying, tbh.

SNR
01-16-2011, 11:40 AM
He's not the only weakness, and you're not replacing him anytime soon with a superstar QB who has no weakness, so we might as well focus on what he can do well and continue to upgrade the offense to compete with teams who can stop the run and take Bowe out of the game. That means getting some other receivers, especially one who can provide a down field threat and a reliable third down target, continued growth from Moeaki, and some upgrades along the line...I agree.

But none of that means that we shouldn't draft a QB this year. Matt Cassel is likely going to play better than some rookie. Let's sit the rookie on the bench and re-evaluate the position in 2012.

Extra Point
01-16-2011, 11:54 AM
I agree.

But none of that means that we shouldn't draft a QB this year. Matt Cassel is likely going to play better than some rookie. Let's sit the rookie on the bench and re-evaluate the position in 2012.

I agree, too. Cassel is here for the next three years, so let's build around him, get him some protection, and get him some plays he can execute against upcoming opponents.

Cassel being here for that long, doesn't keep us from drafting or trading for a QB back-up or candidate for QBOTF, and it damn well shouldn't.

Chiefshrink
01-16-2011, 11:56 AM
I'm not quite sure what you are saying, tbh.

What I'm saying is if we had alot tougher schedule "this" yr Cassel would not have put up the numbers he did this yr. Meaning let's say we made the playoffs last yr our schedule would have been alot tougher this yr meaning Cassel's numbers would not have been that good IMO.

Our O-line and Bowe performed well only against subpar D's that means good D's with a decent CB and good against the rush, all they have to do is stack the box and then challenge Cassel to beat them (ala Balt and they won).

jd1020
01-16-2011, 11:59 AM
What I'm saying is if we had alot tougher schedule "this" yr Cassel would not have put up the numbers he did this yr. Meaning let's say we made the playoffs last yr our schedule would have been alot tougher this yr meaning Cassel's numbers would not have been that good IMO.

Thats fantastic. Now tell me what that has to do with what you quoted from me.

SNR
01-16-2011, 12:13 PM
I agree, too. Cassel is here for the next three years, so let's build around him, get him some protection, and get him some plays he can execute against upcoming opponents.

Cassel being here for that long, doesn't keep us from drafting or trading for a QB back-up or candidate for QBOTF, and it damn well shouldn't.I brought this up last night, but the Packers drafted all kinds of QBs- 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th rounders etc when Brett Favre was in his PRIME. They already knew he was a future HOF QB in his prime with this team and they were constantly drafting QBs.

We have a mediocre small-time game manager and our GM thinks QB isn't a position of need.

What do I know, though. I'm not an NFL GM.

jd1020
01-16-2011, 12:15 PM
I brought this up last night, but the Packers drafted all kinds of QBs- 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th rounders etc when Brett Favre was in his PRIME. They already knew he was a future HOF QB in his prime with this team and they were constantly drafting QBs.

We have a mediocre small-time game manager and our GM thinks QB isn't a position of need.

What do I know, though. I'm not an NFL GM.

We didn't think QB was a position worthy of a draft pick when we didn't even have 1. Why would they start drafting one now with 1 "starter" and 1 practice squad QB.

It much easier to build a team that wins with All-star play from every position besides the most important one.

FringeNC
01-16-2011, 12:41 PM
Our problem is in pass protection. Our offensive line is a fast, finesse run-blocking line. I don't think we will try to revamp our O-line into a better pass-blocking line, but instead will go after WRs. I think given our O-line, we must have a very good route running slot receiver for Cassel to dump off to.

SNR
01-16-2011, 12:43 PM
Our problem is in pass protection. Our offensive line is a fast, finesse run-blocking line. I don't think we will try to revamp our O-line into a better pass-blocking line, but instead will go after WRs. I think given our O-line, we must have a very good route running slot receiver for Cassel to dump off to.Our pass protection was very good in the first half of that game.

I agree we need more talent and depth on the offensive line, but it's ridiculous to think this is a swiss cheese line

'Hamas' Jenkins
01-16-2011, 12:47 PM
I don't think the NFC West argument really holds much water anymore.

Cassel against the NFC West:

68-112, 60.4, 7.68 YPA, 10 TD, 2 INT

Cassel in the other 12 games:

194-338, 57.4, 6.68 YPA, 17 TD, 5 INT

Were his numbers slightly inflated? Yes. Was he a different QB? No.

17-8 vs. 10-2 is a damned big difference, as is a 1 YPA difference.

Most importantly, he started 16 games this year:

NFC WAC: 4-0

Everyone else: 6-6

jd1020
01-16-2011, 12:55 PM
17-8 vs. 10-2 is a damned big difference, as is a 1 YPA difference.

Most importantly, he started 16 games this year:

NFC WAC: 4-0

Everyone else: 6-6

I care more about his 2-4 record against .500+ opponents this year. The 2 wins came against the Chargers and Jaguars. He threw for 45% and 68 yards against the Chargers in week 1.

Cassel is the definition of a winner. He just needs more talent around him to support his ability to win.

booger
01-16-2011, 12:55 PM
Its too bad Charlie couldn't stay on for another year. Another year here and we could have groomed someone from within to take over once he left and Cassel and the staff would all be better for it.

Yep, that would have been ideal.

For Sirianni as well as Cassel.

You see it with HC's with offensive and defensive backgrounds alike, the Head coach having heavy influence these days. The Weis hires are exciting but if Haley wants to put his touches of his offense in AZ on this system here in KC, it's not going to work with a Weis or Gailey type.

I won't be suprised to see it be a under the radar hire. Or one that people are initially disapointed in. Like Brian Daboll from Cleveland. He has tagged along with Mangini with the jets and browns and got the experience as a play caller, running practice, game planning, teaching coaches new to the system, etc. Under a D minded HC in Mangini. Problem with him is there isn't a qb that has developed under his watch with Mangini.

Jeff Davidson got the Carolina job because Weis recommended him to Fox and they are friends so he took his advice. And he was on staff in NE before Belichic and Pioli arrived and was kept on the staff. He's got the experience its again that he hasn't really developed a QB aside from Delhome and McCoy was on staff then too. Plus Davidson is a former NFL OL and that's his background before OC. They really need to add another passing game type for the OC role.

I think Chris Palmer the Hartford UFL HC could be a good fit for this current situation. He has interviewed with Sparano for their OC spot. He and Sparano have a long history. Plus he would be good for Cassel and Sirianni. On the other hand he has kind of sizzled out in his NFL stops.

http://www.panthers.com/team/coaches/rip-scherer/5b3b8bed-88e1-47c0-949e-81fc2a7824aa

This guy in the link above, Rip Scherer might be a good add on in some capacity. Long time college coach, former college QB, and got his shot in the NFL under Romeo in Cleveland. Then took over for McCoy when he went to Denver.

Haley will make the choice he feels is best for the team, i agree with what he said in the end of the season presser. It's just that people expecting another Weis type hire might be dissapointed. And people worried about '09 with Haley calling plays have a right to be because it was a mess. But he is going into his 3rd year and has Crennel now.

philfree
01-16-2011, 12:56 PM
Our pass protection was very good in the first half of that game.

I agree we need more talent and depth on the offensive line, but it's ridiculous to think this is a swiss cheese line

The O line was better this year but it's not championship caliber. Not stout enough at any one position and to weak up the middle. Until we make it stronger we'll never get past defenses like Pitts, Balt and SD. All those teams overwhelmed our line.

PhilFree:arrow:

booger
01-16-2011, 01:00 PM
The O line was better this year but it's not championship caliber. Not stout enough at any one position and to weak up the middle. Until we make it stronger we'll never get past defenses like Pitts, Balt and SD. All those teams overwhelmed our line.

PhilFree:arrow:

I agree.

Asamoah is gonna start at one of those guard spots or maybe even C. Need another body in the mix though.

Count Zarth
01-16-2011, 01:00 PM
17-8 vs. 10-2 is a damned big difference, as is a 1 YPA difference.

Most importantly, he started 16 games this year:

NFC WAC: 4-0

Everyone else: 6-6

Eh, I really don't see it as that huge of a difference.

I'm no Casselbacker, you know that. But I think he played well enough to earn a reprieve this offseason.

Next season he won't be able to hide against a weak schedule so we'll have a definitive read on him.

tk13
01-16-2011, 01:05 PM
Actually it was 6-5 against everyone else, don't forget the Chargers game he missed.

But either way, it's probably half/half. A couple of those non-AFC West games our defense totally crapped out. Especially Houston and the Denver blowout. Plus we win the first Oakland game if Bowe doesn't drop a pass. But on the flipside we won games like Buffalo and the 2nd Denver game due to the defense.

DBOSHO
01-16-2011, 01:05 PM
The patriots have been drafting quarterbacks forever.

Cassel, oconnell, hoyer, robinson.

I dont see the harm in drafting one after round 2

jd1020
01-16-2011, 01:06 PM
Actually it was 6-5 against everyone else, don't forget the Chargers game he missed.

I thought Cassel started against the Ravens.

tk13
01-16-2011, 01:07 PM
I thought Cassel started against the Ravens.

I don't know what you're talking about. The last game of our season was Tennessee, I don't remember anything after that.

jd1020
01-16-2011, 01:08 PM
I don't know what you're talking about. The last game of our season was Tennessee, I don't remember anything after that.

But then he would have been 6-4 against everyone else, in your mind.

booger
01-16-2011, 01:09 PM
The patriots have been drafting quarterbacks forever.

Cassel, oconnell, hoyer, robinson.

I dont see the harm in drafting one after round 2

http://www.draftcountdown.com/ScoutingReports/QB/Andy-Dalton.php

This kid from TCU...........i don't remember what site it was just a little tid bit i read he has plenty of respect among the scouts.

They need to take a shot though i agree. and hopefully a mid rounder and not a rookie FA.

DBOSHO
01-16-2011, 01:10 PM
I dont want a ginger playing quarterback for this team. Ever.

milkman
01-16-2011, 01:12 PM
I dont want a ginger playing quarterback for this team. Ever.

Ginger?

booger
01-16-2011, 01:12 PM
I dont want a ginger playing quarterback for this team. Ever.

I thought the same thing.:D

just tell the equipment staff to keep plenty of hair dye on hand. And write in his contract he must dye his brows too.

booger
01-16-2011, 01:13 PM
Ginger?

carrot crotch

pumpkin patch

his pubes are on fire

do i need to go on

milkman
01-16-2011, 01:14 PM
carrot crotch

pumpkin patch

his pubes are on fire

do i need to go on

Figured it out reading your previous post.

Stupidest reason I've ever heard.

booger
01-16-2011, 01:16 PM
Figured it out reading your previous post.

Stupidest reason I've ever heard.

Red Foreman would have slapped the back of his head and called him a dumbass for suggesting such a thing

DBOSHO
01-16-2011, 01:16 PM
How many gingers do you know of that have been successful in the NFL?

jd1020
01-16-2011, 01:17 PM
Red is not a pre-approved Chiefs color.

booger
01-16-2011, 01:20 PM
i can hear it now


SNAP. THE. F#CKING. BALL. RUSTY!!!

SNR
01-16-2011, 01:28 PM
How many gingers do you know of that have been successful in the NFL?Brian Scalabrine

RedThat
01-16-2011, 01:32 PM
Since Cassel still panics I think our O-line needs addressed first then a WR. Recievers don't mean jack if you are stuck with a 'nervous Nellie' QB with an O-line that can only 'perform' against sh**ty D's.

Couldn't agree with this more.

Imo, the offense is still incomplete and a work in progress. More so than the defense. At this point, I think the defense is ahead of the offense.

Most of the Oline needs to be rebuilt except for a few positions. And of course this team needs to add another WR.

Our tackles weren't the greatest this year. First things first, Richardson needs to go. If they do decide to keep him, he should be the backup right tackle. Im convinced he is not a quality starter. So they need to upgrade the right tackle position.

Secondly, Brandon Albert play this year wasn't exactly what I would call "stellar". He was average to slightly above average at times. I just don't think he will ever be the probowl left tackle that many thought he could develop into coming out of the draft. Although, I do think he is worth keeping. But I think its time to place him over to his more appropriate position, and that is, either left or right guard. I think he is more of a natural fit at guard.

Wiegman was solid this year, but I think that move was short term just to patch up the center position. We need to draft and develop a center this year.

Its time to either cut or trade Waters. Start Asamoah next year. Just an example of out with the old in with the new.

*But yeah the three positions that need to be upgraded are LT, RT, and C. We need three OL. At least three, and hopefully they could add another WR. Just my two cents.

Tuckdaddy
01-16-2011, 01:40 PM
The only way for us to get to the big game with Matt is to give him a very strong supporting cast. The d will have to be suffocating and he will need a super strong o-line. That thing that some QB's have that make them great, Matt does not have.

His mechanics suck
Arm strength sucks
Pocket pressence sucks
Ability to make plays sucks
Ability to handle pressure and make a play sucks

Like I wrote, he will need a super strong team around him.

Tuckdaddy
01-16-2011, 01:43 PM
Our problem is in pass protection. Our offensive line is a fast, finesse run-blocking line. I don't think we will try to revamp our O-line into a better pass-blocking line, but instead will go after WRs. I think given our O-line, we must have a very good route running slot receiver for Cassel to dump off to.


Our first problem is QB. Anyone watching the playoffs would agree. m

Sweet Daddy Hate
01-16-2011, 02:01 PM
So Cassel says its important to bring in someone with a voice to push him and the Chiefs want to bring in someone with a voice that rivals that of a mouse... I feel so much better about our QB situation.

Bring in some real competition to push him. If he can't take it:

Well, bye.

Chiefshrink
01-16-2011, 02:03 PM
Thats fantastic. Now tell me what that has to do with what you quoted from me.

You can't make the argument about Moss and YAC when the Chiefs have an easier schedule and no "deep threat". Read on.

When you play against more subpar D's (ala weaker schedule) your need for a deepthreat becomes less. This is why you don't know if you buy the "deepthreat" argument because this is what you had this yr with Cassel and the Chiefs and you use the Moss and YAC argument yada yada...

However the Pats have always had a tougher schedule in general than the Chiefs and the "Key" was they had a "deep threat" to keep the 'good D's' honest so that the playcalling was always in "balanced threat". Notice I said "balanced threat" and not balanced number of plays called. You can have all the balance number of plays called all you want but if the "threat" is not there then you don't have a "balanced threat"!! The Pats had that 'balanced threat' thus making the better D's play honest. Chiefs don't have that 'deep threat' in Bowe IMO. Bowe is nothing more than a big body 'sometimes' possession WR IMO.

Next yr when the Chiefs play a tougher schedule and you still only have one legit WR who is "not" a deep threat(ala Bowe) then it makes it no brainer that all you have to do is put your best CB on Bowe and stack the box.

Bottom line: We need a 'deep threat' to keep those better D's honest otherwise they will always challenge Cassel to beat them and more often than not they will succeed. So you can't compare Cassel with the Pats vs. Cassel with the Chiefs IMO.

Chiefshrink
01-16-2011, 02:05 PM
Bring in some real competition to push him. If he can't take it:

Well, bye.

THIS a 1000xs!!!!!:thumb:

jd1020
01-16-2011, 02:10 PM
You can't make the argument about Moss and YAC when the Chiefs have an easier schedule and no "deep threat". Read on.

When you play against more subpar D's (ala weaker schedule) your need for a deepthreat becomes less. This is why you don't know if you buy the "deepthreat" argument because this is what you had this yr with Cassel and the Chiefs and you use the Moss and YAC argument yada yada...

However the Pats have always had a tougher schedule in general than the Chiefs and the "Key" was they had a "deep threat" to keep the 'good D's' honest so that the playcalling was always in "balanced threat". Notice I said "balanced threat" and not balanced number of plays called. You can have all the balance number of plays called all you want but if the "threat" is not there then you don't have a "balanced threat"!! The Pats had that 'balanced threat' thus making the better D's play honest. Chiefs don't have that 'deep threat' in Bowe IMO. Bowe is nothing more than a big body 'sometimes' possession WR IMO.

Next yr when the Chiefs play a tougher schedule and you still only have one legit WR who is "not" a deep threat(ala Bowe) then it makes it no brainer that all you have to do is put your best CB on Bowe and stack the box.

Bottom line: We need a 'deep threat' to keep those better D's honest otherwise they will always challenge Cassel to beat them and more often than not they will succeed. So you can't compare Cassel with the Pats vs. Cassel with the Chiefs IMO.

Whoooooooooooooosh!

That is the sound of my point going right over your head.

Cassel was just as inconsistent with Moss, one of the best deep threats in the history of the game.

Everyone is making excuse after excuse for why a career backup has yet to prove he's a franchise QB, or even a QB worthy of starting in the NFL. When it's blatantly clear that he is just not good.

Sure, you can win with Cassel but it will never be because of Cassel, instead, it will be in spite of Cassel.

Count Zarth
01-16-2011, 02:13 PM
Sure, you can win with Cassel but it will never be because of Cassel, instead, it will be in spite of Cassel.

Did you even watch the games this year?

The Chiefs won several games because of Cassel.

jd1020
01-16-2011, 02:14 PM
Did you even watch the games this year?

The Chiefs won several games because of Cassel.

Against who? What exactly did the Chiefs win this year?

Get back to me when you are done celebrating mediocrity.

Extra Point
01-16-2011, 02:15 PM
Whoooooooooooooosh!

That is the sound of my point going right over your head.

Cassel was just as inconsistent with Moss, one of the best deep threats in the history of the game.

Everyone is making excuse after excuse for why a career backup has yet to prove he's a franchise QB, or even a QB worthy of starting in the NFL. When it's blatantly clear that he is just not good.

Sure, you can win with Cassel but it will never be because of Cassel, instead, it will be in spite of Cassel.

A team never wins in spite of its player(s). Dilfer and the Ravens running game in 2000 will attest to that.

You overcharge your patients/patience, man.

Sweet Daddy Hate
01-16-2011, 02:15 PM
Did you even watch the games this year?

The Chiefs won several games because of Cassel.

We did?

Chiefshrink
01-16-2011, 02:19 PM
Whoooooooooooooosh!

That is the sound of my point going right over your head.

Cassel was just as inconsistent with Moss, one of the best deep threats in the history of the game.

Everyone is making excuse after excuse for why a career backup has yet to prove he's a franchise QB, or even a QB worthy of starting in the NFL. When it's blatantly clear that he is just not good.

Sure, you can win with Cassel but it will never be because of Cassel, instead, it will be in spite of Cassel.

Guess I misinterpreted your no need for "deep threat" statement then:hmmm:

Count Zarth
01-16-2011, 02:19 PM
Against who? What exactly did the Chiefs win this year?

Get back to me when you are done celebrating mediocrity.

Cassel was a big reason we beat these teams:

St. Louis
Seattle
Tennessee
Arizona
San Francisco

We beat none of those teams "in spite" of Cassel, anyway. That's half of our wins.

If Cassel didn't raise his level of play this year we miss the playoffs. It's as simple as that. And there is nothing mediocre about 27 TD passes.

Again, I'm not celebrating Cassel. He hasn't arrived. But he played well enough to earn a reprieve this offseason. He was a big reason for our success this year.

Sweet Daddy Hate
01-16-2011, 02:20 PM
He's played well enough to have legit competition thrown in the mix to challenge for the position.

jd1020
01-16-2011, 02:22 PM
Cassel was a big reason we beat these teams:

St. Louis
Seattle
Tennessee
Arizona
San Francisco

We beat none of those teams "in spite" of Cassel, anyway. That's half of our wins.

If Cassel didn't raise his level of play this year we miss the playoffs. It's as simple as that. And there is nothing mediocre about 27 TD passes.

Again, I'm not celebrating Cassel. He hasn't arrived. But he played well enough to earn a reprieve this offseason. He was a big reason for our success this year.

I agree. A QB who leads the 30th ranked passing attack is a huge reason for a teams success.

Chiefshrink
01-16-2011, 02:23 PM
He's played well enough to have legit competition thrown in the mix to challenge for the position.

Absoooooooooooooooooooooooolutely and especially the way he played the last game of the yr;)

Count Zarth
01-16-2011, 02:23 PM
He's played well enough to have legit competition thrown in the mix to challenge for the position.

Are you suggesting we have an open competition for the QB position a year after the starter throws 27 TDs? Really?

Sweet Daddy Hate
01-16-2011, 02:25 PM
Are you suggesting we have an open competition for the QB position a year after the starter throws 27 TDs? Really?

Am I suggesting someone might have more confidence and better overall skill-set than Lord ShitMyPants(!)?

Absolutely.

Count Zarth
01-16-2011, 02:27 PM
I agree. A QB who leads the 30th ranked passing attack is a huge reason for a teams success.

What's the bigger problem with that passing attack?

The quarterback?

The pass protection?

The receivers?

We had one legit wide receiver and a rookie tight end as our top targets this year. Why would you expect the passing game to flourish?

I'm not trying to say Cassel has arrived, but to act like he wasn't a playmaker against several teams in the second half of the season is just ignorant. The guy pretty much carried the offense against the Rams and Titans in the first half of both games.

Brock
01-16-2011, 02:29 PM
He's played well enough to have legit competition thrown in the mix to challenge for the position.

Not going to happen.

jd1020
01-16-2011, 02:31 PM
What's the bigger problem with that passing attack?

The quarterback?

The pass protection?

The receivers?

Why even ask this question?

Weis figured it out in one season. Pioli has yet to figure it out in 3.

dirk digler
01-16-2011, 02:33 PM
What's the bigger problem with that passing attack?

The quarterback?

The pass protection?

The receivers?



All 3?

seamonster
01-16-2011, 02:33 PM
Pioli & Co. will have to make some serious moves for this team to move forward next year. The current team, Weis or no Weis, with next year's schedule is lucky to win six games. Gaping holes on the offensive line, a horrific receiving corps and terrible linebackers must be immediately addressed.

Whatever dude. The bears, more so than the chiefs, have befinitted from their schedule. They've got no marquee wins and I highly doubt the chiefs would have allowed the stank redskins to beat them at home. They'll be back to winning eight games next year.

Count Zarth
01-16-2011, 02:38 PM
Why even ask this question?

Weis figured it out in one season. Pioli has yet to figure it out in 3.

There's your answer.

Pioli hasn't brought in one legit WR in two offseasons.

Much bigger problem than QB.

jd1020
01-16-2011, 02:39 PM
There's your answer.

Pioli hasn't brought in one legit WR in two offseasons.

Much bigger problem than QB.

You make so much sense my head is going to explode.

Chiefs Pantalones
01-16-2011, 02:40 PM
If he doesn't improve, especially with next year's schedule, he'll be gone after next year. I don't think Pioli and Haley are very patient guys. Cassel bought himself one more year at least with the year he had. Let's see if he can do it and improve against a brutal schedule.

keg in kc
01-16-2011, 02:49 PM
They're probably not as far away as people think.

Jackson seemed to recover from his injury late in the year and will be a better player in 2011. Dorsey is already good. Smith makes for a solid rotational player. All they really need is a tackle.

DJ and Hali were probably the two best players on the defense. People will slam Belcher, forgetting he's a 2nd year undrafted player from a small school. He'll be a better player in 2011, and should still at least be in competition to start. That leaves somebody to take Vrabel's slot. Some people will say Studebaker, but I'm not one of them. But still, that's just one spot they really need to address.

In the secondary, they're set across the board, and the likelihood is that they'll be better at every single position due to the expedience of experience. The two rookie safeties won't be rookies anymore, and neither will the nickel corner. Maybe replace McGraw.

That's really not a lot to address...

On offense, I'm in the minority on this, but I think it's the interior line they need to address. I thought Wiegmann wore down late, as he has basically always done. Waters is getting up there. But they probably don't need to worry about guard. Just center. Albert I leave at left tackle. He may or may not ever be an all pro, but I do think he'll be good enough over the long haul. Right tackle I think needs work. In a perfect world, we transition the offensive line into a little bit more of a pass blocking line, replacing Wiegmann with a bit more beef, and at least have some competition on the right side. (And maybe replace the o-line coach - that may be the real issue.)

I think they need another RB along the lines of Jones (but not Jones). In retrospect, splitting carries was I believe the right move, and I hope they continue to do it.

I think they have enough tight ends...

QB is set, like it or not. It's going to be Cassel. I'd replace Croyle.

That leaves us with WR. We need a #2. I think #3-4 are already on the roster, they just need somebody to complement Bowe.


Looking at all of that, really, how many players are we talking about? 3 or 4 on defense. 3 or 4 on offense.

That's completely doable in one offseason. And there doesn't have to be a drop-off in the win-loss column next year. Not at all.

They're not starting the rebuild now. They're in a position to finish it. The core is there.

Mr. Laz
01-16-2011, 03:03 PM
i figure we either get Haley as OC or some scrub who is OC in name only. Why in hell would somebody good want to work for Haley at this point?

Sweet Daddy Hate
01-16-2011, 03:04 PM
Not going to happen.

Of course it won't; we're the Kansas City Derps!

BigMeatballDave
01-16-2011, 03:16 PM
i figure we either get Haley as OC or some scrub who is OC in name only. Why in hell would somebody good want to work for Haley at this point?:deevee: I hate Todd

KCChiefsFan88
01-16-2011, 03:53 PM
Bigger issue is talent than who is calling the plays.

Chiefshrink
01-16-2011, 04:18 PM
I think they need another RB along the lines of Jones (but not Jones). In retrospect, splitting carries was I believe the right move, and I hope they continue to do it.

Keg,

I'm pretty sure we already have that man in Jackie Battle if they would just start playing him more. He can catch, has deceptive speed and moves the pile forward and can block. Can't see why they wouldn't swap Jones' plays for Battle next yr unless this guy can't pickup blitzes and is a complete dumbsh** which I doubt. I'm a big Battle fan and love the way this guy runs. He punishes people:thumb: