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Tribal Warfare
02-04-2011, 03:02 AM
Muir’s promotion highlights Haley’s biggest flaw (http://www.kansascity.com/2011/02/03/2631634/muirs-promotion-highlights-haleys.html)
By SAM MELLINGER
The Kansas City Star

ARLINGTON, Texas | The Chiefs say this is where they want to be. This is the Super Bowl, of course, and the Chiefs say they want to not only be here but they want to be here year after year after year.

The Chiefs are in the middle of a process, they say. This is modeled after what general manager Scott Pioli helped build in New England, of course, and Pioli says the important thing is not just getting the best people but the right people.

The Chiefs will try to pass off the promotion of offensive line coach Bill Muir — a lifetime football man entering his 34th NFL season — to offensive coordinator as a sign they already have the right people.

You shouldn’t believe that, and not many do.

For now, it’s a clear missed opportunity for the Chiefs to move closer to their goal of being at future Super Bowls.

People around the league — certainly a good number of the ones here for the Super Bowl — see this as confirmation that head coach Todd Haley is a pain in the spandex to work for.

This is Haley’s show now, no more behind-the-scenes grabs for credit.

He’ll either prove everybody wrong by multitasking as offensive coordinator, or he’ll be remembered as the man who ruined his first head coaching job by being unwilling to let others help.

• • •

If you want a reason to believe this will work, look back to the Chiefs’ third game of the season. They played the 49ers, a team with all sorts of internal problems, but this was the first glimpse of the Chiefs as a capable offensive team.

They scored 31 points that day with 457 yards of total offense. You might remember the reverse flea flicker, when Matt Cassel threw to a wide open Dwayne Bowe for a 45-yard touchdown pass, then picked up his receiver and carried him off the field.

Or you might remember that Jamaal Charles and Thomas Jones each rushed for more than 90 yards, first time the Chiefs did that since 2005, or that the team ran some Wildcat formation — the first time they’d really emptied the playbook.

You might also remember this game because Charlie Weis rushed to the hospital soon after for emergency gall bladder surgery. Weis was obviously limited in how much he could coach that week, and the Chiefs did just fine without him.

At least for a week.

The Chiefs would love you to believe they can replicate this for an entire season, against mostly better competition.

There’s no evidence to suggest they’ll do that.

• • •

Todd Haley may not even be intending for it to look this way. He may very well be genuine in saying he values the continuity that Muir will bring, even if the hire directly contradicts what Haley initially wanted from an offensive coordinator.

But the Chiefs can’t talk themselves out of this one.

Everyone who believes Haley is too difficult to work for will see this as confirmation.

Everyone who believes he simply wants an offensive coordinator to be a grunt-worker will nod their head.

The Chiefs looked for someone with chops in the passing game, and settled on someone who’s focused mostly on the running game.

They talk about wanting different ideas, but just replaced the man most willing to speak out with one whose greatest accomplishment came while being subservient to Jon Gruden with the 2002 Super Bowl champion Buccaneers.

None of this makes sense. If Haley thought so much of Muir, why didn’t he make him offensive coordinator two years ago? Or last year?

Or, for that matter, last month?

Muir is 68 years old and started coaching in the NFL when Haley was in high school. It’s not like he needed another season or two to learn.

No, what happened is Haley couldn’t find an outside candidate he liked who would take the job. So he settled for an assistant he knows won’t challenge him.

Wilson8
02-04-2011, 06:53 AM
I’m trying to find something positive about this move.

The 2011 schedule is going to be very tough for the Chiefs and I think Todd and Scott are going to find out that they need a good offensive coordinator.

Todd really has two years where he has actually called the plays. His first year as a OC in Arizona he only helped with the OC game plan. His last year in Arizona he was calling the plays. Through that year Arizona did not look that good but finished the year with a great Super Bowl run.

His first year as the head coach and OC with KC was a fail but Todd still fancies himself as an offensive genius. Maybe Todd will learn is lesson with 2011 and bring in someone that can help for 2012.

Wilson8
02-04-2011, 07:27 AM
What the Chiefs need to make this work…

1. The Minnesota Vikings screw up and let WR Sydney Rice hit free agency and the Chiefs sign him.

2. The Chiefs sign a good QB coach that helps Matt Cassel become a better QB.

3. The Chiefs improve their offensive line through the draft.

4. Todd figures out when to gamble on 4th down plays.

WhitiE
02-04-2011, 07:30 AM
What the Chiefs need to make this work…

1. The Minnesota Vikings screw up and let WR Sydney Rice hit free agency and the Chiefs sign him.

2. The Chiefs sign a good QB coach that helps Matt Cassel become a better QB.

3. The Chiefs improve their offensive line through the draft.

4. Todd figures out when to gamble on 4th down plays.
hope he can

Jethopper
02-04-2011, 08:02 AM
....still not happy

spanky 52
02-04-2011, 08:22 AM
Sure looks like no one wants to work for Haley. 2011 could be a very tough season for Chief fans.

HonestChieffan
02-04-2011, 08:23 AM
Wont end well for either coach

ChiefsandO'sfan
02-04-2011, 08:25 AM
Sure looks like no one wants to work for Haley. 2011 could be a very tough season for Chief fans.

pizza shop info lol

Chiefnj2
02-04-2011, 08:30 AM
My biggest problems are:

1. I still want to know who called the toss to JC on 4th and short. They should be fired immediately.
2. No QB coach.
3. An 2nd year WR coach who played FB in the NFL.

I don't have a problem with Muir calling shots on the running game. Vermeil let Solari do some of that, and it worked out okay at the time. Who is going to run the passing game? Haley? I think it's too much for him to do.

Bob Dole
02-04-2011, 08:35 AM
Sure looks like no one wants to work for Haley. 2011 could be a very tough season for Chief fans.

How rare.

Rooster
02-04-2011, 08:35 AM
Muir’s promotion highlights Haley’s biggest flaw (http://www.kansascity.com/2011/02/03/2631634/muirs-promotion-highlights-haleys.html)
By SAM MELLINGER
The Kansas City Star

For now, it’s a clear missed opportunity for the Chiefs to move closer to their goal of being at future Super Bowls.

This says it all for me. A huge swing and a miss for the brass of the Chiefs. With the biggest season in recent years coming up, assuming they play, the Chiefs chose not to get stronger.

This is a Carl move. I wanted more out of these guys.

ChiefsandO'sfan
02-04-2011, 08:40 AM
This says it all for me. A huge swing and a miss for the brass of the Chiefs. With the biggest season in recent years coming up, assuming they play, the Chiefs chose not to get stronger.

This is a Carl move. I wanted more out of these guys.

And how do you know this? Haley is a better OC then anyone out there that the chiefs could of got.

stevieray
02-04-2011, 08:43 AM
I sure am skeptical, because when I first heard of this, it was like a punch to the gut...it felt instantly like everything new we were trying to build( and it DID appear that way) had reverted back to the good ol boy Chiefs, always settling for might bes or hopeful projects, instead of being extremely aggressive in all avenues of reconstructing the franchise.

That said, at least Haley's putting it all on the line, so if his not playing well with others hampers the progress, he'll be gone.

....and the offseason..what if he gets Fitz here? They at least better have a great draft and aquisition period, to have a chance of not regressing...they go back to mediocre...the fans will bail.

my hope took a hit.

Rooster
02-04-2011, 08:43 AM
And how do you know this? Haley is a better OC then anyone out there that the chiefs could of got.

That would be fine if he already didn't have the title Head Coach assigned to his name.

ChiefsandO'sfan
02-04-2011, 08:44 AM
That would be fine if he already didn't have the title Head Coach assigned to his name.

You do know alot of coaches call there own plays.One of them is in the superbowl this year.

Baby Lee
02-04-2011, 08:49 AM
I sure am skeptical, because when I first heard of this, it was like a punch to the gut...it felt instantly like everything new we were trying to build( and it DID appear that way) had reverted back to the good ol boy Chiefs, always settling for might bes or hopeful projects, instead of being extremely aggressive in all avenues of reconstructing the franchise.

That said, at least Haley's putting it all on the line, so if his not playing well with others hampers the progress, he'll be gone.

....and the offseason..what if he gets Fitz here? They at least better have a great draft and aquisition period, to have a chance of not regressing...they go back to mediocre...the fans will bail.

my hope took a hit.

Scott Pioli: "If I have lost stevieray, I have lost the war"

Rooster
02-04-2011, 08:53 AM
You do know alot of coaches call there own plays.One of them is in the superbowl this year.

Golly gee really?? This isn't about who calls the plays. This is the Chiefs punting on third down. This was a Carl move.

ChiefsandO'sfan
02-04-2011, 08:53 AM
Golly gee really?? This isn't about who calls the plays. This is the Chiefs punting on third down. This was a Carl move.

Ok who do you want to be the OC?

the Talking Can
02-04-2011, 08:55 AM
Scott Pioli: "If I have lost stevieray, I have lost the war"

ROFL

Rooster
02-04-2011, 09:02 AM
Ok who do you want to be the OC?

:doh!: You are missing the whole point Todd.

Haley + Weiss + Muir > Haley + Muir

stevieray
02-04-2011, 09:02 AM
Scott Pioli: "If I have lost stevieray, I have lost the war"
does it really come off that bad?

:doh!:

milkman
02-04-2011, 09:12 AM
You do know alot of coaches call there own plays.One of them is in the superbowl this year.

:doh!: You are missing the whole point Todd.

Haley + Weiss + Muir > Haley + Muir

You know, in spite of his nearly unmatched dumbassery, he does raise an interesting point.

I'd really like to know how Packer fan felt when Joe Philbin was promoted to OC in Green Bay.

At the end of the day, a HC and his offensive staff are really only as good as the QB they put on the field.

Mike McCarthy was a QB coach for the Chiefs for Marty, and yet, he somehow has a team in the SB, and has people arguing that he should have been coach of the year.

Outstanding QB play makes for coaching genius.

We are fucked, not because of Muir.

We are fucked because we don't have superior QB play.

Coogs
02-04-2011, 09:30 AM
Scott Pioli: "If I have lost stevieray, I have lost the war"

In all reality there is a lot of truth in that post.

siberian khatru
02-04-2011, 09:33 AM
I sure am skeptical, because when I first heard of this, it was like a punch to the gut...it felt instantly like everything new we were trying to build( and it DID appear that way) had reverted back to the good ol boy Chiefs, always settling for might bes or hopeful projects, instead of being extremely aggressive in all avenues of reconstructing the franchise.

That said, at least Haley's putting it all on the line, so if his not playing well with others hampers the progress, he'll be gone.

....and the offseason..what if he gets Fitz here? They at least better have a great draft and aquisition period, to have a chance of not regressing...they go back to mediocre...the fans will bail.

my hope took a hit.

:clap:

siberian khatru
02-04-2011, 09:41 AM
My biggest problems are:

1. I still want to know who called the toss to JC on 4th and short. They should

I really want to know the details of how the offensive game-planning and play-calling went last year. We've read that Haley called something like 15 plays a game. What were they? What were the trends -- the kinds of plays and the situations in which they were called? What problem did he have with Weis' planning or play-calling?

We'll never know the answers, but those details would give us the insight we need to understand Haley's apparent need to have control. Why he thinks he's not getting -- and cannot get -- what he wants from someone else.

I am not a control freak in any way except one: I'm the kind of guy who always likes to be the driver and hates to be the passenger. It's not because I think I'm the BEST driver, that no one could be better than me. It's just that I like the feeling of being in control of the vehicle and not at someone else's mercy.

Does Haley think he's the best OC out there? Or does he just hate to be the passenger?

Dave Lane
02-04-2011, 09:47 AM
Pretty much this. basically if Cassel sucks it won't matter who is making the play calls. If he somehow catches fire again, Haley / Muir look like geniouses (CPSp) QB play in this league isn't an important thing, its THE thing.

You know, in spite of his nearly unmatched dumbassery, he does raise an interesting point.

I'd really like to know how Packer fan felt when Joe Philbin was promoted to OC in Green Bay.

At the end of the day, a HC and his offensive staff are really only as good as the QB they put on the field.

Mike McCarthy was a QB coach for the Chiefs for Marty, and yet, he somehow has a team in the SB, and has people arguing that he should have been coach of the year.

Outstanding QB play makes for coaching genius.

We are ****ed, not because of Muir.

We are ****ed because we don't have superior QB play.

Dave Lane
02-04-2011, 09:49 AM
Who really gives a shit? It's going to happen regardless of what we think, or statistics show, so we may as well sit back and hope Haley is right.

I really want to know the details of how the offensive game-planning and play-calling went last year. We've read that Haley called something like 15 plays a game. What were they? What were the trends -- the kinds of plays and the situations in which they were called? What problem did he have with Weis' planning or play-calling?

We'll never know the answers, but those details would give us the insight we need to understand Haley's apparent need to have control. Why he thinks he's not getting -- and cannot get -- what he wants from someone else.

I am not a control freak in any way except one: I'm the kind of guy who always likes to be the driver and hates to be the passenger. It's not because I think I'm the BEST driver, that no one could be better than me. It's just that I like the feeling of being in control of the vehicle and not at someone else's mercy.

Does Haley think he's the best OC out there? Or does he just hate to be the passenger?

Rooster
02-04-2011, 09:52 AM
Outstanding QB play makes for coaching genius.

We are ****ed, not because of Muir.

We are ****ed because we don't have superior QB play.

I agree with this 100%

siberian khatru
02-04-2011, 09:52 AM
Who really gives a shit? It's going to happen regardless of what we think, or statistics show, so we may as well sit back and hope Haley is right.

Well, that's pretty much true of anything that happens in Chiefsland. So why bother talking about anything here? That doesn't seem to stop you from weighing in on football matters.

I give a shit because the answers would broaden my knowledge of what my favorite team is doing, not because it would somehow empower me to make a difference.

Deberg_1990
02-04-2011, 10:16 AM
How can we call it a flaw if we havent seen the results yet??

ChiTown
02-04-2011, 10:24 AM
How can we call it a flaw if we havent seen the results yet??

I think you call it a trend, when you are on your 3rd OC in 3 years.

Three7s
02-04-2011, 10:29 AM
How can we call it a flaw if we havent seen the results yet??
Didn't you know that CPers are all-knowing geniuses?

Deberg_1990
02-04-2011, 10:29 AM
I think you call it a trend, when you are on your 3rd OC in 3 years.

True, but so far there hasnt been any negative results. 2nd year of a major rebuild project and we made the playoffs.

I agree, this wasnt a sexy pick by any means, but in typical CP fashion, everyone loves to kneejerk and overeact. Lets at least wait until the regular season starts and see what happens.

L.A. Chieffan
02-04-2011, 10:31 AM
Scott Pioli: "If I have lost stevieray, I have lost the war"

lol i was gonna say the same thing. i did a :eek:

Chiefnj2
02-04-2011, 11:03 AM
True, but so far there hasnt been any negative results. 2nd year of a major rebuild project and we made the playoffs.

I agree, this wasnt a sexy pick by any means, but in typical CP fashion, everyone loves to kneejerk and overeact. Lets at least wait until the regular season starts and see what happens.

If Muir was so good, why not hire him (a) originally, (b) instead of Weis, (c) two months ago?

Mr. Laz
02-04-2011, 11:11 AM
This may work but i don't see how anyone could consider is a good move. The Chiefs had a chance to add another football brain to the mix and passed.

addition by subtraction is the only way this turns out positive.

To me having to resort to 'addition by subtraction' just means something else is screwed up.

DaneMcCloud
02-04-2011, 11:13 AM
How can we call it a flaw if we havent seen the results yet??

LMAO

Sweet Daddy Hate
02-04-2011, 11:14 AM
Outside of hiring King or Hootie or Reerun, I honestly can't think of a lamer hire.

DaneMcCloud
02-04-2011, 11:15 AM
If Muir was so good, why not hire him (a) originally, (b) instead of Weis, (c) two months ago?

Because, silly, the Rams, Patriots, Browns, Dolphins and Broncos were all considering him as their Offensive Coordinator/Assistant Head Coach and Muir just needed time to sort it all out.

Mr. Laz
02-04-2011, 11:18 AM
Pretty much this. basically if Cassel sucks it won't matter who is making the play calls. If he somehow catches fire again, Haley / Muir look like geniouses (CPSp) QB play in this league isn't an important thing, its THE thing.
Cassel got better under Weis

this idiotic,bullshit belief that Quarterbacks make themselves is beyond stupid. Just like the general CP belief that 'throwing a QB into the fire' isn't a problem for a good QB

coaching can help a QB get better or result in a QB getting worse imo.

teedubya
02-04-2011, 11:21 AM
This is also virtually a guarantee that the Chiefs will be needing an OC in a couple years. Dude is 68 fyuckin' years old.

Deberg_1990
02-04-2011, 11:22 AM
this idiotic,bullshit belief that Quarterbacks make themselves is beyond stupid.

Ive always been of the belief that a player sucks because he sucks. Sure, coaching can improve some aspects, but mostly the player himself should be to blame for sucking.

DaneMcCloud
02-04-2011, 11:23 AM
Ive always been of the belief that a player sucks because he sucks. Sure, coaching can improve some aspects, but mostly the player himself should be to blame for sucking.

Wow, I had never realized that you're a football retard.

Sweet Daddy Hate
02-04-2011, 11:28 AM
I predict lots of booing and many "STFU"! from Mo' Kessel this year.

Mr. Laz
02-04-2011, 11:29 AM
Ive always been of the belief that a player sucks because he sucks. Sure, coaching can improve some aspects, but mostly the player himself should be to blame for sucking.
at most positions i might agree with you but the Quarterback position is so dependent on the offense as a whole that coaching is a huge part of it.

if the Oline doesn't have a good scheme to handle blitzes then the QB is a sitting duck and will have 'happy feet' and will look like shit

if the WR's don't know what to do or don't have a good feel with the QB then if the first option doesn't work than the QB starts throwing terrible looking interceptions where it's his fault or not

QB's footwork and throwing motion need monitoring and tweaking like a golf swing. If you don't have a decent QB coach then a Quarterback can look like shit from bad mechanics.

list goes on and on ... too long to type

Okie_Apparition
02-04-2011, 11:34 AM
Off season grudge sexing is back baby!

Shox
02-04-2011, 12:02 PM
Well this hire stirred up the Chiefs nation in a negative way.....but it doesn't take much to do that these days.

It clearly is not an sexy or exciting pick. But, you can't say Pioli/Haley are not willing to do it. You only have to go back one year and they hired a couple of big names in Weiss and Crunnel.

Pioli and Haley have made more good decisions than bad over the past two years. You can't argue with their results. Give them the benefit of the doubt and see how this one works. They know what they want this franchise to look like and they are putting pieces together to make it happen.

Keep up the good work gentlemen!!!!!

Deberg_1990
02-04-2011, 12:03 PM
at most positions i might agree with you but the Quarterback position is so dependent on the offense as a whole that coaching is a huge part of it.

if the Oline doesn't have a good scheme to handle blitzes then the QB is a sitting duck and will have 'happy feet' and will look like shit

if the WR's don't know what to do or don't have a good feel with the QB then if the first option doesn't work than the QB starts throwing terrible looking interceptions where it's his fault or not

QB's footwork and throwing motion need monitoring and tweaking like a golf swing. If you don't have a decent QB coach then a Quarterback can look like shit from bad mechanics.

list goes on and on ... too long to type

Let me put it this way....

If Manning and Ryan Leaf had been reversed, Manning would have ended up great with the Bolts, and Leaf a dud with the Colts.

Lower round guys who became great, like Montana, Brady, Brees, etc....all worked hard to become great. Sure, they might not of had as much success in other systems, but i truly belive they would have been successful anywhere if given the chance. Great players succeed mostly because of a strong drive and work ethic, just like most anything in life.

Almost any player who gets picked to play in the NFL have the athletic ability, especially high round guys. But nobody can accurately predict desire and work ethic.

DaneMcCloud
02-04-2011, 12:10 PM
Almost any player who gets picked to play in the NFL have the athletic ability, especially high round guys. But nobody can accurately predict desire and work ethic.

Of course this can be predicted.

The problem is that many GM's choose to look the other way because they're so enamored of the talent.

Mr. Laz
02-04-2011, 12:13 PM
Let me put it this way....

If Manning and Ryan Leaf had been reversed, Manning would have ended up great with the Bolts, and Leaf a dud with the Colts.

Lower round guys who became great, like Montana, Brady, Brees, etc....all worked hard to become great. Sure, they might not of had as much success in other systems, but i truly belive they would have been successful anywhere if given the chance. Great players succeed mostly because of a strong drive and work ethic, just like most anything in life.

Almost any player who gets picked to play in the NFL have the athletic ability, especially high round guys. But nobody can accurately predict desire and work ethic.
you are probably right ... the top 10% would be good anywhere and the bottom 10% would of sucked anywhere.

but what about the other 80% of the players

coaching,scheme,environment make a huge difference in the level of their play imo.

Halfcan
02-04-2011, 12:31 PM
What the Chiefs need to make this work…

1. The Minnesota Vikings screw up and let WR Sydney Rice hit free agency and the Chiefs sign him.

2. The Chiefs sign a good QB coach that helps Matt Cassel become a better QB.

3. The Chiefs improve their offensive line through the draft.

4. Todd figures out when to gamble on 4th down plays.
and when to just kick the chip shot field goal

FAX
02-04-2011, 12:34 PM
Well this hire stirred up the Chiefs nation in a negative way.....but it doesn't take much to do that these days.

It clearly is not an sexy or exciting pick. But, you can't say Pioli/Haley are not willing to do it. You only have to go back one year and they hired a couple of big names in Weiss and Crunnel.

Pioli and Haley have made more good decisions than bad over the past two years. You can't argue with their results. Give them the benefit of the doubt and see how this one works. They know what they want this franchise to look like and they are putting pieces together to make it happen.

Keep up the good work gentlemen!!!!!

A very reasonable post, Mr. Shox.

Chan Gailey was a hold-over. That year, Haley never really got a chance to even attempt to put together a staff. There wasn't time. The next year, they bring in Weis. It didn't work. Weis probably thinks Haley is a smart ass, know-it-all kid who should spend more time in the corner. Problem with that is that Haley is the HC. They tried it and it didn't work.

This promotion is more about continuity than anything else. We have tons more to worry about than just the OC position in 2011. Tons.

FAX

Extra Point
02-04-2011, 12:55 PM
Because, silly, the Rams, Patriots, Browns, Dolphins and Broncos were all considering him as their Offensive Coordinator/Assistant Head Coach and Muir just needed time to sort it all out.

Rep for richness!ROFL

DaneMcCloud
02-04-2011, 12:57 PM
A very reasonable post, Mr. Shox.

Chan Gailey was a hold-over. That year, Haley never really got a chance to even attempt to put together a staff. There wasn't time.

I'm sorry Mr. Fax, but I don't buy this, at all.

There are and were many offensive and defensive coordinators in the college ranks that could have absolutely stepped in and done far better job than either Haley or Pendergast in season one. There are linebacker and secondary coaches all over the league that could have been promoted, brought to KC and had far better results.

The problem with Pioli & Haley is that they're far too myopic. They only look to those they know and those they've worked with in the past. That's a recipe for failure. If you're not willing to open your mind to other possibilities, you're doomed to fail.


The next year, they bring in Weis. It didn't work. Weis probably thinks Haley is a smart ass, know-it-all kid who should spend more time in the corner. Problem with that is that Haley is the HC. They tried it and it didn't work.

It didn't work because Todd Haley didn't keep his word. He meddled far too much into the offense and overrided Weis's playcalling not just occasionally on game day, but constantly on game day.

You hire Charlie Weis to run the offense because he's Charlie Weis. You don't hire Charlie Weis, then constantly tell him what he can and can't do.

This promotion is more about continuity than anything else. We have tons more to worry about than just the OC position in 2011. Tons.

FAX

This promotion is nothing more than Todd Haley's ego run amok. He won't share the offensive responsibilities with anyone and has to have the final say. A 68 year-old man is not going to argue with Todd Haley, especially after receiving a title bump and increase in salary.

It was a power grab, plain and simple.

'Hamas' Jenkins
02-04-2011, 01:01 PM
Scott Pioli: "If I have lost stevieray, I have lost the war"

ROFL ROFL ROFL

JASONSAUTO
02-04-2011, 01:06 PM
It was a power grab, plain and simple.

how? IMO he already had all the power. he's the HC.

FAX
02-04-2011, 01:08 PM
I think the main difference between my opinion on all this and most everyone else boils down to this; Haley is the HC. That's it. He's the boss of the team. And the boss gets to make the rules.

Given that, Weis can say what he wants. He can complain about "meddling" and bitch to high heaven. Then, he can go out and get himself his own head coaching job in the NFL.

Meanwhile, Haley gets to decide what happens and when and by whom with the Chiefs. Sure, he may fail and fall on his ass. However, as of now, this team is a far better, more disciplined, more productive squad than the one he took over. That's progress and, given where we were just a couple of years ago ... remarkable progress.

FAX

ChiefsandO'sfan
02-04-2011, 01:10 PM
Wow, I had never realized that you're a football retard.

Man you need a asskicking bad love to give it to you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=FMEe7JqBgvg#t=34s FOUND YOU

DaneMcCloud
02-04-2011, 01:11 PM
how? IMO he already had all the power. he's the HC.

Because he was hired to be the head coach, plain and simple. He wasn't hired to be the Head Coach/Offensive Coordinator, he was hired to be the head coach.

This situation is different than Andy Reid, Sean Payton, Mike Shanahan, Mike McCarthy, etc. Those owners knew at the time of hiring that those men would not only be the head coach, but would call the plays on Sunday.

Haley usurped that power from Chan Gailey and he's done it once again with Weis. This wasn't the original deal.

gblowfish
02-04-2011, 01:11 PM
I think the main difference between my opinion on all this and most everyone else boils down to this; Haley is the HC. That's it. He's the boss of the team. And the boss gets to make the rules.
FAX

My way or the highway!

DeezNutz
02-04-2011, 01:12 PM
I think the main difference between my opinion on all this and most everyone else boils down to this; Haley is the HC. That's it. He's the boss of the team. And the boss gets to make the rules.

Given that, Weis can say what he wants. He can complain about "meddling" and bitch to high heaven. Then, he can go out and get himself his own head coaching job in the NFL.

Meanwhile, Haley gets to decide what happens and when and by whom with the Chiefs. Sure, he may fail and fall on his ass. However, as of now, this team is a far better, more disciplined, more productive squad than the one he took over. That's progress and, given where we were just a couple of years ago ... remarkable progress.

FAX

Pioli is the boss of this team, and as boss, he should have prevented one of his subordinates from going down a path that is potentially destructive to himself and the organization.

There is empirical evidence of both from '09.

What I cannot believe is that not a single media person asked the question: why will it be different this time?

DaneMcCloud
02-04-2011, 01:14 PM
However, as of now, this team is a far better, more disciplined, more productive squad than the one he took over. That's progress and, given where we were just a couple of years ago ... remarkable progress.

FAX

I only think it's remarkable if you're a Chiefs fan.

The the same exact thing can be said of the New Orleans Saints, St. Louis Rams, Atlanta Falcons, Tampa Bay Bucs, the Cowboys under Garrett, etc.

Doing what's expected shouldn't be a remarkable feat, IMO.

the Talking Can
02-04-2011, 01:14 PM
Man you need a asskicking bad love to give it to you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=FMEe7JqBgvg#t=34s FOUND YOU

bye

go have a beer with fake mma guy

DaneMcCloud
02-04-2011, 01:15 PM
What I cannot believe is that not a single media person asked the question: why will it be different this time?

That's because they're afraid that their media access will be denied.

DeezNutz
02-04-2011, 01:16 PM
That's because they're afraid that their media access will be denied.

Truth, and many have conflicts of interest. Petro, for example, is a Chiefs employee.

ChiefsandO'sfan
02-04-2011, 01:16 PM
bye

go have a beer with fake mma guy

If you ever make it to maryland look me up tuff guy.

milkman
02-04-2011, 01:18 PM
Because he was hired to be the head coach, plain and simple. He wasn't hired to be the Head Coach/Offensive Coordinator, he was hired to be the head coach.

This situation is different than Andy Reid, Sean Payton, Mike Shanahan, Mike McCarthy, etc. Those owners knew at the time of hiring that those men would not only be the head coach, but would call the plays on Sunday.

Haley usurped that power from Chan Gailey and he's done it once again with Weis. This wasn't the original deal.

The Chiefs got into the staff hiring process late in the game because Hunt asked Pioli to take his time and give Herman fucking Edwards full consideration before making a change.

They also kept Gailey on staff because Hunt asked Haley to see if he and Gailey could work together, and when Haley went to Pioli and Hunt and told them it couldn't work, he was allowed to make a change.

If anything, it's Hunt's meddling that created some of the problems that the Chiefs are experiencing.

I've said it before.

I believe that the HC should be solely responsible for his staff.

He should hire the people he believes gives him the best chance to succeed.

Asking him to work with people that he has a problem with is asking for problems.

notorious
02-04-2011, 01:18 PM
If you ever make it to maryland look me up tuff guy.

Why did you have to go there?

Someone disagrees and you want to beat them up........

:facepalm:

ChiefsandO'sfan
02-04-2011, 01:20 PM
Why did you have to go there?

Someone disagrees and you want to beat them up........

:facepalm:

Cause in real life he wont have that lip.

FAX
02-04-2011, 01:21 PM
Pioli is the boss of this team, and as boss, he should have prevented one of his subordinates from going down a path that is potentially destructive to himself and the organization.

There is empirical evidence of both from '09.

What I cannot believe is that not a single media person asked the question: why will it be different this time?

Constructing semantic arguments may seem an easy way to counter a particular point and impress the stupid N00bs (sp?), but it's kind of shallow, Mr. DeezNutz.

Haley decides how to manage his staff ... including his OC. That's my point. That makes Haley the "Boss of the team".

If you are, frankly, suggesting that Pioli should micro-manage Haley so Haley doesn't micro-manage his direct staff (including his fat-ass, sans-gall-bladdered OC), you are arguing in one heck of a circle there, my friend.

FAX

notorious
02-04-2011, 01:22 PM
Cause in real life he wont have that lip.

True, but you realize that your opposition wins when they get under your skin.


Just laugh it off, throw a few "AIDs Tree" or "Antifreeze" comments at them and move on.

DaneMcCloud
02-04-2011, 01:23 PM
The Chiefs got into the staff hiring process late in the game because Hunt asked Pioli to take his time and give Herman fucking Edwards full consideration before making a change.

They also kept Gailey on staff because Hunt asked Haley to see if he and Gailey could work together, and when Haley went to Pioli and Hunt and told them it couldn't work, he was allowed to make a change.

I understand that Herm Edwards was given consideration. I also understand that Haley was asked to work with Gailey. IMO, he should have immediately said "No". By not doing so, he set this team back in 2009 and IMO, showed that he couldn't handle making tough decisions from Day One.

Furthermore, there a dozens and dozens of excellent football coaches throughout this country, whether it be in the college ranks or NFL staffs. The mere notion that Clancy Pendergast was the best choice for defensive coordinator and that Todd Haley was the best choice as offensive coordinator and QB coach, while serving his first year EVER as head coach, is nothing short of laughable, let alone, untrue.

JASONSAUTO
02-04-2011, 01:24 PM
Because he was hired to be the head coach, plain and simple. He wasn't hired to be the Head Coach/Offensive Coordinator, he was hired to be the head coach.

This situation is different than Andy Reid, Sean Payton, Mike Shanahan, Mike McCarthy, etc. Those owners knew at the time of hiring that those men would not only be the head coach, but would call the plays on Sunday.

Haley usurped that power from Chan Gailey and he's done it once again with Weis. This wasn't the original deal.

haley is the head coach i think it should be his decision. actually as of this point it looks like i am right on this. he should have all the power, his ass is on the line.

but thats just my opinion.

and i will ask if you are assuming about the owners knowing without a doubt that all those coaches would be calling their own plays when hired.

DeezNutz
02-04-2011, 01:26 PM
Constructing semantic arguments may seem an easy way to counter a particular point and impress the stupid N00bs (sp?), but it's kind of shallow, Mr. DeezNutz.

Haley decides how to manage his staff ... including his OC. That's my point. That makes Haley the "Boss of the team".

If you are, frankly, suggesting that Pioli should micro-manage Haley so Haley doesn't micro-manage his direct staff (including his fat-ass, sans-gall-bladdered OC), you are arguing in one heck of a circle there, my friend.

FAX

I'm not arguing a semantic point at all, FAX. I know very well that you were talking about the coaching staff, and I don't disagree with this.

My point is that sometimes the GM can do the organization a great favor by preventing a larger problem. Big Head Todd could use some help in this regard. His '09 was bad enough, that a GM would be well served not to allow him to risk repeating it. I don't consider this micro-managing at all; I consider that effective leadership, and it's using a broad sword, if anything.

And the only thing shallow about that is (insert wittyism).

DaneMcCloud
02-04-2011, 01:26 PM
and i will ask if you are assuming about the owners knowing without a doubt that all those coaches would be calling their own plays when hired.

When Mike McCarthy was hired as head coach, there were no illusions as to whether he'd be the offensive play caller. Same for Payton, Shanahan and the others I mentioned. They were all hired as head coaches AND playcallers.

Haley was not hired under those same circumstances, obviously, because Gailey was in place and not fired until one week before the season began.

There is no debating this subject.

FAX
02-04-2011, 01:27 PM
I only think it's remarkable if you're a Chiefs fan.

The the same exact thing can be said of the New Orleans Saints, St. Louis Rams, Atlanta Falcons, Tampa Bay Bucs, the Cowboys under Garrett, etc.

Doing what's expected shouldn't be a remarkable feat, IMO.

Well, I can't really disagree with the substance of that statement on its surface, Mr. DaneMcCloud. However, in this world and life existence all things are relative. All things.

Surely you would agree that we are "relatively" better off now than we were two years prior. Regardless of what the Rams or the Falcons or the Bucs have done with their own franchises. We were a mere stain on the ass of the league for three straight years ... and getting worse.

By the way, I haven't been on here much lately, but it sure feels like you guys have started some kind of contest on how to change the subject mid-conversation or introduce irrelevant data in order to make a point. Who's ahead?

FAX

JASONSAUTO
02-04-2011, 01:28 PM
When Mike McCarthy was hired as head coach, there were no illusions as to whether he'd be the offensive play caller. Same for Payton, Shanahan and the others I mentioned. They were all hired as head coaches AND playcallers.

Haley was not hired under those same circumstances, obviously, because Gailey was in place and not fired until one week before the season began.

There is no debating this subject.

have you got a link to that? all of them?

DaneMcCloud
02-04-2011, 01:30 PM
Well, I can't really disagree with the substance of that statement on its surface, Mr. DaneMcCloud. However, in this world and life existence all things are relative. All things.

Surely you would agree that we are "relatively" better off now than we were two years prior. Regardless of what the Rams or the Falcons or the Bucs have done with their own franchises. We were a mere stain on the ass of the league for three straight years ... and getting worse.

The Chiefs are certainly "better off" but much of that foundation was laid by Herm and Kuharich. While it's absolutely impossible to predict where the Chiefs would be today if Herm had stayed on as coach, there's no denying his influence on this roster.

And the reason the Chiefs were a "stain" is due to no one other than Carl Peterson and Dick Vermeil. They set this franchise back for half a decade due to trading draft picks for players that only played a few years, coaches and poor draft strategy.

JASONSAUTO
02-04-2011, 01:30 PM
sorry i cant find one article saying all those guys were hired fully intending to call plays.

milkman
02-04-2011, 01:31 PM
I understand that Herm Edwards was given consideration. I also understand that Haley was asked to work with Gailey. IMO, he should have immediately said "No". By not doing so, he set this team back in 2009 and IMO, showed that he couldn't handle making tough decisions from Day One.

Furthermore, there a dozens and dozens of excellent football coaches throughout this country, whether it be in the college ranks or NFL staffs. The mere notion that Clancy Pendergast was the best choice for defensive coordinator and that Todd Haley was the best choice as offensive coordinator and QB coach, while serving his first year EVER as head coach, is nothing short of laughable, let alone, untrue.

To Penderghast, I think that the plan from the start was to wait out a year and once again persue Crennel, so he was simply a stopgap that no one was going to feel bad about demoting or firing.

And I disagree with your idea that handling the Gailey situation showed that he was unable to handle the tough decisions.

If you're brand new to a job, and your new boss comes to you and asks you to do something for him, you are not going to dismiss the idea out of hand.

He made the right decision.

the Talking Can
02-04-2011, 01:31 PM
If you ever make it to maryland look me up tuff guy.


i'll settle for pounding your mom....enjoy being banned

DaneMcCloud
02-04-2011, 01:31 PM
have you got a link to that? all of them?

Try this: www.google.com

FAX
02-04-2011, 01:33 PM
I'm not arguing a semantic point at all, FAX. I know very well that you were talking about the coaching staff, and I don't disagree with this.

My point is that sometimes the GM can do the organization a great favor by preventing a larger problem. Big Head Todd could use some help in this regard. His '09 was bad enough, that a GM would be well served not to allow him to risk repeating it. I don't consider this micro-managing at all; I consider that effective leadership, and it's using a broad sword, if anything.

And the only thing shallow about that is (insert wittyism).

Your argument assumes that Haley did not consult with Pioli, Mr. DeezNutz. That's kind of crazy, man. There is no reason (other than the pap Chiefs Nation is fed by the ignorant, media-fueled ratings and rumor mill) to believe that Haley and Pioli don't discuss and come to agreement on all major decisions ... such as who to choose for OC. For all we know, Clark was also consulted and likely was.

Another interesting aspect of all this is that Haley mentioned in his interview that he had consulted the Great Mentor on this deal, as well. The idea that neither Pioli or anyone else had input on this decision is well ... (insert witticism).

I like the "Big Head Todd" deal, though. Very much. He is a fiery little bastard, I have to give him that.

FAX

FAX
02-04-2011, 01:33 PM
Try this: www.google.com

ROFL

That was just nasty rude.

FAX

DeezNutz
02-04-2011, 01:35 PM
Oh, I think they talked, but I think they arrived at a reckless decision, born out of Haley's steadfast belief that he's the best answer..............for everything.

Brock
02-04-2011, 01:35 PM
If you ever make it to maryland look me up tuff guy.


Wait a minute.....Maryland? As in Cumberland, Maryland?

DaneMcCloud
02-04-2011, 01:35 PM
To Penderghast, I think that the plan from the start was to wait out a year and once again persue Crennel, so he was simply a stopgap that no one was going to feel bad about demoting or firing.

That's a undeniably stupid strategy.

And I disagree with your idea that handling the Gailey situation showed that he was unable to handle the tough decisions.

And I disagree with your disagreement.

If you're brand new to a job, and your new boss comes to you and asks you to do something for him, you are not going to dismiss the idea out of hand.

If I'm hired to do a job and paid in excess of $2.5 million a year to do said job, not only am I hired to make tough decisions, I'm also a bad ass with a long track record of making the right decisions. Otherwise, I'd be unworthy of holding that position.

My experience in the corporate world was to absolutely provide my thoughts when asked, whether or not I agreed or disagreed with the CEO, CFO or COO. It wasn't to "go along" with the pack and be a "Yes Man". In this case, Haley should have stood his ground, fired Gailey and brought in someone to his liking.

Unfortunately, the point that's being missed here is that Haley never intended to bring in someone to actually run the offense.

He made the right decision.

Not in my opinion.

milkman
02-04-2011, 01:40 PM
That's a undeniably stupid strategy.



And I disagree with your disagreement.



If I'm hired to do a job and paid in excess of $2.5 million a year to do said job, not only am I hired to make tough decisions, I'm also a bad ass with a long track record of making the right decisions. Otherwise, I'd be unworthy of holding that position.

My experience in the corporate world was to absolutely provide my thoughts when asked, whether or not I agreed or disagreed with the CEO, CFO or COO. It wasn't to "go along" with the pack and be a "Yes Man". In this case, Haley should have stood his ground, fired Gailey and brought in someone to his liking.

Unfortunately, the point that's being missed here is that Haley never intended to bring in someone to actually run the offense.



Not in my opinion.

We are never going to agree.

While I believe that you can't be a yes man, I think you have to go into any new situation with an open mind, and feel your way until you get your feet wet.

Oh, and I agree with your first point.

It was undeniably stupid, but I never felt from the start that they had any other plan.

FAX
02-04-2011, 01:41 PM
The Chiefs are certainly "better off" but much of that foundation was laid by Herm and Kuharich. While it's absolutely impossible to predict where the Chiefs would be today if Herm had stayed on as coach, there's no denying his influence on this roster.

And the reason the Chiefs were a "stain" is due to no one other than Carl Peterson and Dick Vermeil. They set this franchise back for half a decade due to trading draft picks for players that only played a few years, coaches and poor draft strategy.

Okay. Uncle Dick screwed us in the butt along with Carl. We know that.

Herm drafted some good players (and Uncle Dick had a couple), but he couldn't convince them to stay in shape, practice properly, or perform on the field. Minor details, I suppose.

In my world, an ass stain is an ass stain. How it got there is pretty damn irrelevant. So ... not to be rude or anything, but what's your point? We all know the history as to how we became the laughing stock of the league.

Personally, I think Haley has done one hell of a job turning this thing around and I don't really care how he did it or why. So he broke some eggs? So what? Weis can cry me a river. It's all about wins to me. Over time. Year after year. In the hunt consistently. I'm tired of this franchise going up and down like a Vietnamese call girl.

FAX

FAX
02-04-2011, 01:45 PM
Oh, I think they talked, but I think they arrived at a reckless decision, born out of Haley's steadfast belief that he's the best answer..............for everything.

Maybe. Still, if you think about it, would you rather have a head coach who lacked confidence in his own abilities?

I love you guys, but damn. I think you might want to consider the remote possibility that you're reading a lot into this decision that isn't really there at all ... Nick Wright style.

How about this? Maybe Muir is a placeholder until they can identify and "available" candidate whose philosophies merge well with the existing staff? In the meantime, continuity might be the better course of action as opposed to introducing a new personality into the staff at this particular juncture. That argument would make some sense to me, were I Pioli and Clark.

FAX

DaneMcCloud
02-04-2011, 01:47 PM
In my world, an ass stain is an ass stain. How it got there is pretty damn irrelevant. So ... not to be rude or anything, but what's your point?FAX

I guess the "point" would be that quick turnarounds are the norm in the NFL and should not be considered "remarkable".

As for the Chiefs, I view the 2010 "turnaround" in the same light as the 2008 Miami Dolphins "turnaround" (which I stated long before this season began).

If you'll recall, the Dolphins were 1-15 in 2007, went 11-5 in 2008 and lost big time to the Ravens in their playoff appearance. It was a mirage due to scheduling, with the Dolphins not beating a single team with a winning record that season. They've since followed that season up with two sub-par seasons.

It's going to take incredible personnel decision making and coaching for the Chiefs to avoid the same fate as those Dolphins teams. Quite frankly, I believe Todd Haley just screwed the pooch on a very important decision, making less likely that the Chiefs will have a successful 2011 campaign.

Pestilence
02-04-2011, 01:48 PM
If you ever make it to maryland look me up tuff guy.

Cause in real life he wont have that lip.

http://images1.memegenerator.net/ImageMacro/4619686/Im-one-bad-ass-internet-tough-guy-Am-i-cool-yet.jpg?imageSize=Medium&generatorName=Ignorant-Movie-Fan

milkman
02-04-2011, 01:50 PM
Maybe. Still, if you think about it, would you rather have a head coach who lacked confidence in his own abilities?

I love you guys, but damn. I think you might want to consider the remote possibility that you're reading a lot into this decision that isn't really there at all ... Nick Wright style.

How about this? Maybe Muir is a placeholder until they can identify and "available" candidate whose philosophies merge well with the existing staff? In the meantime, continuity might be the better course of action as opposed to introducing a new personality into the staff at this particular juncture. That argument would make some sense to me, were I Pioli and Clark.

FAX

I think you're right.

I do see Muir as a placeholder as they continue to develop Sirianni.

My guess is that they hope to get two years from Muir.

DeezNutz
02-04-2011, 01:51 PM
Maybe. Still, if you think about it, would you rather have a head coach who lacked confidence in his own abilities?

I love you guys, but damn. I think you might want to consider the remote possibility that you're reading a lot into this decision that isn't really there at all ... Nick Wright style.

How about this? Maybe Muir is a placeholder until they can identify and "available" candidate whose philosophies merge well with the existing staff? In the meantime, continuity might be the better course of action as opposed to introducing a new personality into the staff at this particular juncture. That argument would make some sense to me, were I Pioli and Clark.

FAX

Confidence is great; it's even better when it's tempered with prudence, which I haven't seen a lot from with Haley.

If Muir is a placeholder of sorts, this almost suggests a year-long holding period, or another "evaluation year," which I thought was garbage the first time around.

Saccopoo
02-04-2011, 01:57 PM
Golly gee really?? This isn't about who calls the plays. This is the Chiefs punting on third down. This was a Carl move.

No it wasn't. Jesus...a Carl move is trading a draft pick away for the opportunity to have Herm Edwards be his head coach.

Haley wants to call the plays. He's got a pretty decent track record at that and wasn't completely satisfied with the somewhat conservative nature of Weis' calls.

I remember at one point during the season, the sideline showed Haley after some dumbass play that was truly a dumbass offensive play and Haley mouthed "What the fuck was that Charlie?!"

As long as we have a solid defensive coordinator, such as we do with Crennel, I have absolutely no problem having Haley call the plays while having the line coach as the OC.

kstater
02-04-2011, 01:57 PM
When Mike McCarthy was hired as head coach, there were no illusions as to whether he'd be the offensive play caller. Same for Payton, Shanahan and the others I mentioned. They were all hired as head coaches AND playcallers.

Haley was not hired under those same circumstances, obviously, because Gailey was in place and not fired until one week before the season began.

There is no debating this subject.

So what you're saying, is that at no point in the interview process with Hunt and Pioli, was the subject of offensive philosophy or whether or not he had aspirations of installing his offense and calling the plays ever came up? Or it did and he outright lied to Hunt and Pioli and decided to call his own plays after being hired.

FAX
02-04-2011, 01:58 PM
I guess the "point" would be that quick turnarounds are the norm in the NFL and should not be considered "remarkable".

As for the Chiefs, I view the 2010 "turnaround" in the same light as the 2008 Miami Dolphins "turnaround" (which I stated long before this season began).

If you'll recall, the Dolphins were 1-15 in 2007, went 11-5 in 2008 and lost big time to the Ravens in their playoff appearance. It was a mirage due to scheduling, with the Dolphins not beating a single team with a winning record that season. They've since followed that season up with two sub-par seasons.

It's going to take incredible personnel decision making and coaching for the Chiefs to avoid the same fate as those Dolphins teams. Quite frankly, I believe Todd Haley just screwed the pooch on a very important decision, making less likely that the Chiefs will have a successful 2011 campaign.

Herm couldn't take most of these very same damn players and win a contest with the Albuquerque Ladies Bowling League, man. It's unfair, in my view, to discredit Haley's contribution to turning this thing around. His off-season program is vastly superior to Herm's, for example.

Meanwhile, it's obvious that 2011 is going to be rough as hell. A first place schedule is like asking for a major ass kicking with high duration.

But let's look at it this way for a moment. Do you not believe that Pioli and Haley know full well what that schedule entails? Do you not think that they realize they benefited from the 2010 schedule? Or, do you think that they are some kind of weird zombie sleep walkers who just elect to do the stupidest shit possible after heading over to Oak Park Mall to consult with Madame Wong and her Magic Eggrolls?

We know how the league is organized from a schedule perspective. So do they. It's probably going to be a long season ... but this is a 5 year deal and 2011 will be year 3, by my count.

FAX

milkman
02-04-2011, 01:58 PM
Confidence is great; it's even better when it's tempered with prudence, which I haven't seen a lot from with Haley.

If Muir is a placeholder of sorts, this almost suggests a year-long holding period, or another "evaluation year," which I thought was garbage the first time around.

I think they have a plan where they want to be in year 3, year 4, year 5...

I personally don't like the way they are going about it, but (appears to me) it is what it is.

I still wish we had taken a different direction when Hunt hired a GM.

philfree
02-04-2011, 02:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tribal Warfare
Muir’s promotion highlights Haley’s biggest flaw
By SAM MELLINGER
The Kansas City Star

For now, it’s a clear missed opportunity for the Chiefs to move closer to their goal of being at future Super Bowls.


What was the opportunity that they missed exactly?

That's a BS statement based on nothing but opinion. I hate it when statements like this are treated like a fact. It could be a mistake to promote Muir to OC but then again it may not. I do think that if Haley is calling all the plays he'll do a much better job then he did in '09. He's had two years as HC now so he should have a good enough grip on it that it shouldn't be a problem in 2011.

PhilFree:arrow:

FAX
02-04-2011, 02:01 PM
Confidence is great; it's even better when it's tempered with prudence, which I haven't seen a lot from with Haley.

If Muir is a placeholder of sorts, this almost suggests a year-long holding period, or another "evaluation year," which I thought was garbage the first time around.

Oh, hell.

One of these days I'll make a list of "prudent" decisions that Haley has made, to date. Honestly, I can think of so many that I don't have time to list them all right now. No joke.

Please reconsider your perspective on all this, Mr. DeezNutz. Otherwise, we may have to meet in Baltimore.

FAX

FAX
02-04-2011, 02:07 PM
I think you're right.

I do see Muir as a placeholder as they continue to develop Sirianni.

My guess is that they hope to get two years from Muir.

That's pretty obvious, I think. I mean, the dude is like 120 years old, or something. We'll be lucky if he makes it through the off-season.

Personally, I would have preferred a young, stud, brilliant mind at the offensive helm. Those guys grow on trees, after all. But, actually, I would have preferred that Weis not turn out to be such an egotistical pussy. This whole "continuity" issue shouldn't be dismissed so easily, I think.

We don't always get what we want, I suppose.

FAX

DaneMcCloud
02-04-2011, 02:07 PM
So what you're saying, is that at no point in the interview process with Hunt and Pioli, was the subject of offensive philosophy or whether or not he had aspirations of installing his offense and calling the plays ever came up?

The offensive philosophy for those on the Parcells tree is the Earhart/Perkins offense. I'm sure that was discussed and I'd imagine that Clark Hunt could care less because there are pretty much only three philosophies used in the NFL, whether it's the E/P, WCO or Coryell/Zampese offense.

I do believe that Clark Hunt thought that he was hiring a head coach to oversee the entire team, not a head coach that would act as head coach, offensive coordinator and quarterbacks coach. Otherwise, Chan Gailey would have been fired immediately upon Haley's hiring.

I seriously doubt that Haley was hired under pretense that if things didn't work out with Chan Gailey, Todd Haley himself would assume all of those responsibilities. That's absurd and there is no evidence that points to that being the case.

Or it did and he outright lied to Hunt and Pioli and decided to call his own plays after being hired.

I'm just looking at the facts. I'm not going to speculate whether or not Todd Haley had devious intentions.

The fact of the matter is that Todd Haley was hired as the head coach of the Chiefs and for nearly nine months, had an offensive coordinator in place before firing him and assuming his responsibilities one week before the season began.

DeezNutz
02-04-2011, 02:08 PM
Oh, hell.

One of these days I'll make a list of "prudent" decisions that Haley has made, to date. Honestly, I can think of so many that I don't have time to list them all right now. No joke.

Please reconsider your perspective on all this, Mr. DeezNutz. Otherwise, we may have to meet in Baltimore.

FAX

While I'm appreciative of your offer to treat me to crab cakes--they are delicious in those parts--I'm afraid some of the overly emotional moments from BHT trump some of the saner ones on my hierarchy. As evidence A, I present yanking Cassel from the Titans game because, by golly, it sure was important for Haley to stamp him wittle foot and assert his alpha maleness. I'm confident he went home and ensured that #6 was on the way, too.

Meanwhile, any offensive cohesion and the play of his "franchise" QB went right down the shitter.

But I'm still grateful that we lost 473 combined pounds as a team. I was proudly touting this statistic when SportsCenter was pouring over the combined weight loss of the Packers and Steelers, noting this as a major reason for organizational success, not simply an aside in the usual mind**** presented by NFL organizations.

DaneMcCloud
02-04-2011, 02:10 PM
But, actually, I would have preferred that Weis not turn out to be such an egotistical pussy.FAX

I'm sorry but this is absolutely laughable.

Todd Haley was the egotistical pussy in this scenario, not Charlie Weis.

Brock
02-04-2011, 02:11 PM
All Weis wanted was to do the job he was hired to do.

DaneMcCloud
02-04-2011, 02:13 PM
All Weis wanted was to do the job he was hired to do.

No, you're wrong.

He wanted Todd Haley to interfere with the game plan and call 15 plays per game because he's a n00b that needed guidance.

FAX
02-04-2011, 02:17 PM
While I'm appreciative of your offer to treat me to crab cakes--they are delicious in those parts--I'm afraid some of the overly emotional moments from BHT trump some of the saner ones on my hierarchy. As evidence A, I present yanking Cassel from the Titans game because, by golly, it sure was important for Haley to stamp him wittle foot and assert his alpha maleness. I'm confident he went home and ensured that #6 was on the way, too.

Meanwhile, any offensive cohesion and the play of his "franchise" QB went right down the shitter.

But I'm still grateful that we lost 473 combined pounds as a team. I was proudly touting this statistic when SportsCenter was pouring over the combined weight loss of the Packers and Steelers, noting this as a major reason for organizational success, not simply an aside in the usual mind**** presented by NFL organizations.

As for evidence A, Cassel can kiss my ass. He is a over-aged, under-experienced loser who will never take us to the promised land. I hope Haley shoots him in the brain.

Offensive "cohesion"? When did we have any of that in 2010? Are we talking about the same team? We were up and down like a yo-yo. Look okay. Suck. Look okay. Suck worse. People were screaming for Charles to get more carries because that was the one thing they thought they could depend on for yards. Remember?

Have I logged onto the wrong board?

Oh ... I thought we lost about 700 or so pounds as a team. Albert lost about 400 on his own. Oh, too ... we're not the Steelers or the Packers. Yet. We are a suck-ass team that has been the frigging laughing stock of the league for many, many years in the very early stages of, what we hope to be, a turnaround.

FAX

philfree
02-04-2011, 02:17 PM
That's pretty obvious, I think. I mean, the dude is like 120 years old, or something. We'll be lucky if he makes it through the off-season.

Personally, I would have preferred a young, stud, brilliant mind at the offensive helm. Those guys grow on trees, after all. But, actually, I would have preferred that Weis not turn out to be such an egotistical pussy. This whole "continuity" issue shouldn't be dismissed so easily, I think.

We don't always get what we want, I suppose.

FAX

That was Todd Haley in 2008.


PhilFree:arrow:

FAX
02-04-2011, 02:17 PM
No, you're wrong.

He wanted Todd Haley to interfere with the game plan and call 15 plays per game because he's a n00b that needed guidance.

I shall send him a condolence card with some chocolates forthwith. Poor, poor man.

FAX

FAX
02-04-2011, 02:21 PM
I'm sorry but this is absolutely laughable.

Todd Haley was the egotistical pussy in this scenario, not Charlie Weis.

I know you love the guy. I read your posts. I get it.

We disagree on this point. Do you recall the original presser when Haley and Weis were asked about this issue? Do you remember what was said then? Publicly? In front of God and everybody?

I know you have inside information, which is great. And, I appreciate your opinions and views. However, I believe Weis should never have taken the gig if he couldn't take the heat. Was he misled? I'm pretty sure that, insider information or no, there will be multiple opinions on that particular point.

FAX

DeezNutz
02-04-2011, 02:21 PM
As for evidence A, Cassel can kiss my ass. He is a over-aged, under-experienced loser who will never take us to the promised land. I hope Haley shoots him in the brain.

Offensive "cohesion"? When did we have any of that in 2010? Are we talking about the same team? We were up and down like a yo-yo. Look okay. Suck. Look okay. Suck worse. People were screaming for Charles to get more carries because that was the one thing they thought they could depend on for yards. Remember?

Have I logged onto the wrong board?

Oh ... I thought we lost about 700 or so pounds as a team. Albert lost about 400 on his own. Oh, too ... we're not the Steelers or the Packers. Yet. We are a suck-ass team that has been the frigging laughing stock of the league for many, many years in the very early stages of, what we hope to be, a turnaround.

FAX

I don't know why you hate the Chiefs so much.

FAX
02-04-2011, 02:23 PM
I don't know why you hate the Chiefs so much.

You know, I often wonder why I had the horrific misfortune to be born a Chiefs fan.

FAX

DeezNutz
02-04-2011, 02:25 PM
You know, I often wonder why I had the horrific misfortune to be born a Chiefs fan.

FAX

Then you should double-down as a Royals fan, too. Welcome to my own personal sports hell.

notorious
02-04-2011, 02:27 PM
Then you should double-down as a Royals fan, too. Welcome to my own personal sports hell.

Damnit.


Thanks Dad!

:facepalm:

DaneMcCloud
02-04-2011, 02:34 PM
I know you love the guy. I read your posts. I get it.

We disagree on this point. Do you recall the original presser when Haley and Weis were asked about this issue? Do you remember what was said then? Publicly? In front of God and everybody?

I know you have inside information, which is great. And, I appreciate your opinions and views. However, I believe Weis should never have taken the gig if he couldn't take the heat. Was he misled? I'm pretty sure that, insider information or no, there will be multiple opinions on that particular point.

FAX

Weis could handle the "heat" but it was unnecessary for a man with his resume. Weis wasn't young guy in need of assistance. He was a three time Super Bowl winning offensive coordinator who "thought" he was going to "fix" the quarterback and run the offense.

When he decided to leave, Pioli left him no other option than to go back to the college ranks. He wasn't going to allow him to work for the Broncos or Raiders, etc. I don't think that Weis will be exchanging Christmas cards with Pioli or Haley anytime soon.

The bottom line is that Todd Haley wants to run this offense as he sees fit without any undue interference.

And that's what he's going to get in 2011.

Baby Lee
02-04-2011, 02:46 PM
Herm couldn't take most of these very same damn players and win a contest with the Albuquerque Ladies Bowling League, man. It's unfair, in my view, to discredit Haley's contribution to turning this thing around. His off-season program is vastly superior to Herm's, for example.

Meanwhile, it's obvious that 2011 is going to be rough as hell. A first place schedule is like asking for a major ass kicking with high duration.

But let's look at it this way for a moment. Do you not believe that Pioli and Haley know full well what that schedule entails? Do you not think that they realize they benefited from the 2010 schedule? Or, do you think that they are some kind of weird zombie sleep walkers who just elect to do the stupidest shit possible after heading over to Oak Park Mall to consult with Madame Wong and her Magic Eggrolls?

We know how the league is organized from a schedule perspective. So do they. It's probably going to be a long season ... but this is a 5 year deal and 2011 will be year 3, by my count.

FAX

Gabe from Sabre corporate says cut down on the pop culture references, and please no disparaging Sabre products.

ChiefsandO'sfan
02-04-2011, 02:53 PM
Wait a minute.....Maryland? As in Cumberland, Maryland?

westminster md

philfree
02-04-2011, 02:55 PM
http://www.kcchiefs.com/news/article-1/QA-with-Todd-Haley-and-Charlie-Weis/6BF4F946-5E47-42AB-A8CA-E221EE8D2C72

This is what I remember.

Q: Is it going to be tough for you to step aside and let someone else control the offense or will you still have a hand in it?

HALEY: “I would think that I would have a hand in it. That is just good business


Haley likes conflict among his coaches. He thinks it's healthy for guys to disagree and argue. Weis knew the score coming in and he wussed out after a year. Weiss is the Wuss in my humble opinion. I've never like Weis' personality though. He's snobbish.


PhilFree:arrow:


PhilFree:arrow:

ChiefsCountry
02-04-2011, 03:00 PM
For now, it’s a clear missed opportunity for the Chiefs to move closer to their goal of being at future Super Bowls.


That opportunity ended on 02/28/09.

kstater
02-04-2011, 03:02 PM
http://www.kcchiefs.com/news/article-1/QA-with-Todd-Haley-and-Charlie-Weis/6BF4F946-5E47-42AB-A8CA-E221EE8D2C72

This is what I remember.



Haley likes conflict among his coaches. He thinks it's healthy for guys to disagree and argue. Weis knew the score coming in and he wussed out after a year. Weiss is the Wuss in my humble opinion. I've never like Weis' personality though. He's snobbish.


PhilFree:arrow:


PhilFree:arrow:

More lies from Haley. Talk to Dane's source.

Valiant
02-04-2011, 03:04 PM
The good thing about thinking the chiefs will do bad every year is anything beyond six wins is bonus.

Haley got his yes man and scapestooge.

philfree
02-04-2011, 03:04 PM
I want to know which plays Haley called during the season. Everybody seems to think it was a mistake for Haley to call some of the plays and that seems like a normal reaction. I want to know if we scored on some of those 15 plays a game. Did those plays work or not? How many of Bowes big plays were the result of a Haley play call?


PhilFree:arrow:

philfree
02-04-2011, 03:09 PM
That opportunity ended on 02/28/09.

Oh it ended long before that. Some time back about the mid '70s it seems.





PhilFree:arrow:

siberian khatru
02-04-2011, 03:11 PM
Then you should double-down as a Royals fan, too. Welcome to my own personal sports hell.

Add in MU frustrations, too.

It's a tough life.

'Hamas' Jenkins
02-04-2011, 03:13 PM
Add in MU frustrations, too.

It's a tough life.

As a Cardinals-Chiefs-Mizzou fan I'm simultaneously dealing with

1) The dumbassery of the Chiefs
2) The disappointment of MU basketball
3) Losing Gabbert (my favorite MU player ever) to the draft along with Aldon Smith
4) A disappointing CFB recruiting class
5) The Tony Mitchell debacle
6) The spectre of losing the best player I've ever seen (who is also my current favorite athlete) leave the team I've rooted for the longest (Pujols).

Sports is thoroughly fucking depressing for me right now. The only thing I have going for me is the dynasty I've built with the Toronto Raptors in NBA 2K11.

jettio
02-04-2011, 03:29 PM
I think the main difference between my opinion on all this and most everyone else boils down to this; Haley is the HC. That's it. He's the boss of the team. And the boss gets to make the rules.

Given that, Weis can say what he wants. He can complain about "meddling" and bitch to high heaven. Then, he can go out and get himself his own head coaching job in the NFL.

Meanwhile, Haley gets to decide what happens and when and by whom with the Chiefs. Sure, he may fail and fall on his ass. However, as of now, this team is a far better, more disciplined, more productive squad than the one he took over. That's progress and, given where we were just a couple of years ago ... remarkable progress.

FAX

I agree with this.

This is Haley's shot to be an NFL head coach, if he wants to call the plays, he should call the plays.

Mike McCarthy calls the plays and his team will be playing Super Bowl Sunday.

It is not impossible for a team to succeed with the Head Coach calling the plays.

It is a lot better for Haley to sink or swim doing it the way he believes in.

DeezNutz
02-04-2011, 03:34 PM
I agree with this.

This is Haley's shot to be an NFL head coach, if he wants to call the plays, he should call the plays.

Mike McCarthy calls the plays and his team will be playing Super Bowl Sunday.

It is not impossible for a team to succeed with the Head Coach calling the plays.

It is a lot better for Haley to sink or swim doing it the way he believes in.

How many highly successful coaches have served as HC/OC without having very high-quality QBs? And, no, Hootie, this doesn't mean that high-quality QBs don't need to be coached.

Furthermore, and this has not been addressed by many: if Haley wants to play OC on Sundays, he'll need to delegate game management to someone else. Where is the evidence that he's willing and able to do this? Someone, anyone, tote this water and make the case.

JASONSAUTO
02-04-2011, 04:05 PM
Try this: www.google.com

funny thing is i tried. couldnt find it anywhere from when they were hired. you made the statement care to back it up?

DaneMcCloud
02-04-2011, 04:11 PM
funny thing is i tried. couldnt find it anywhere from when they were hired. you made the statement care to back it up?

I made the statement.

It's up to you to counter it.

That's how a debate works.

JASONSAUTO
02-04-2011, 04:20 PM
I made the statement.

It's up to you to counter it.

That's how a debate works.

really? damn you were gone for too long, usually around here if you make a statement you should be able to back it up.

thats how chiefsplanet has worked since ive been around.

JASONSAUTO
02-04-2011, 04:22 PM
you know i could give a fuck less about that statement. dont worry about it, it has nothing to do with this discussion or your statement that i really took issue with.


you are acting like haley is a power hungry HC who took more power by not hiring an OC, IMO he has all the power.

he IS the HC after all.

DaneMcCloud
02-04-2011, 04:23 PM
really? damn you were gone for too long, usually around here if you make a statement you should be able to back it up.

thats how chiefsplanet has worked since ive been around.

Here ya go, Jason. Since you were unable to find anything using goole or your phone:

In 1999, Philadelphia's Andy Reid jumped from quarterbacks coach under Holmgren in Green Bay to play-calling head coach for the Eagles. Minnesota's Brad Childress, Green Bay's Mike McCarthy, New Orleans' Sean Payton and Houston's Gary Kubiak are entering their third seasons as head coaches and offensive playcallers. McCarthy and Payton already have earned widespread acclaim.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/story?columnist=sando_mike&id=3410788

If you would like to argue that Mac, Payton, Reid or Kubiak weren't initially hired as Head Coaches/Playcallers, be my guest. But you'll need proof to the contrary in order to prove it.

My advice is to save your time.

DaneMcCloud
02-04-2011, 04:24 PM
you know i could give a fuck less about that statement. dont worry about it, it has nothing to do with this discussion or your statement that i really took issue with.


you are acting like haley is a power hungry HC who took more power by not hiring an OC, IMO he has all the power.

he IS the HC after all.

Head Coach doesn't equal emperor.

ChiefsandO'sfan
02-04-2011, 04:25 PM
Here ya go, Jason. Since you were unable to find anything using goole or your phone:

In 1999, Philadelphia's Andy Reid jumped from quarterbacks coach under Holmgren in Green Bay to play-calling head coach for the Eagles. Minnesota's Brad Childress, Green Bay's Mike McCarthy, New Orleans' Sean Payton and Houston's Gary Kubiak are entering their third seasons as head coaches and offensive playcallers. McCarthy and Payton already have earned widespread acclaim.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/story?columnist=sando_mike&id=3410788

If you would like to argue that Mac, Payton, Reid or Kubiak weren't initially hired as Head Coaches/Playcallers, be my guest. But you'll need proof to the contrary in order to prove it.

My advice is to save your time.

Did you run into Tom hanks today lol with your inside info ?

jettio
02-04-2011, 04:33 PM
How many highly successful coaches have served as HC/OC without having very high-quality QBs? And, no, Hootie, this doesn't mean that high-quality QBs don't need to be coached.

Furthermore, and this has not been addressed by many: if Haley wants to play OC on Sundays, he'll need to delegate game management to someone else. Where is the evidence that he's willing and able to do this? Someone, anyone, tote this water and make the case.

I am going to watch the games and see what happens. I don't think debating abouting it ahead of time is that helpful. I think the results are what matters and those results will not be affected by our speculation about possibilites.

Gruden had decent QBs, but he won some games with QBs who were not HOF caliber.

I like Cassel and Haley right now and hope they keep improving and show improving results. One thing I like about both Haley and Cassel is that both of them want to be great and seem willing to put in the work to achieve it.

Pestilence
02-04-2011, 04:35 PM
Did you run into Tom hanks today lol with your inside info ?

You have got to be biggest douchebag on this board. I'd rather have a conversation with Sac and TheGuardian.....than read your moronic posts.

-King-
02-04-2011, 04:36 PM
Did you run into Tom hanks today lol with your inside info ?

ROFL That made lol no sense.

ChiefsandO'sfan
02-04-2011, 04:36 PM
You have got to be biggest douchebag on this board. I'd rather have a conversation with Sac and TheGuardian.....than read your moronic posts.

You fags started this

JASONSAUTO
02-04-2011, 04:47 PM
Head Coach doesn't equal emperor.

really? an nfl head coach is responsible for everything associated with the on field play, NO? it's his job to lose, his responsibility.

the power should be his.


and FTR i dont agree with this decision i think sirianni SP? should be the guy.

BUT again that should be up to haley. it all falls on him.

DaneMcCloud
02-04-2011, 04:51 PM
really? an nfl head coach is responsible for everything associated with the on field play, NO? it's his job to lose, his responsibility.

the power should be his.


and FTR i dont agree with this decision i think sirianni SP? should be the guy.

BUT again that should be up to haley. it all falls on him.

Let's put it this way, Jason: Do you really think that Scott Pioli and Clark Hunt would have hired Todd Haley, a first time head coach at any level, with only two years experience coordinating an offense, under the conditions that he act as Head Coach, Offensive Coordinator & QB coach?

Personally, I do not. But, rather than fire Haley and owe him more than $7 million dollars over the next three years, they instead are "giving it a whirl" with Bill Muir as "Offensive Coordinator".

Pestilence
02-04-2011, 04:51 PM
You pillowbiters started this

Started what you fucktard?

JASONSAUTO
02-04-2011, 04:55 PM
Let's put it this way, Jason: Do you really think that Scott Pioli and Clark Hunt would have hired Todd Haley, a first time head coach at any level, with only two years experience coordinating an offense, under the conditions that he act as Head Coach, Offensive Coordinator & QB coach?

Personally, I do not. But, rather than fire Haley and owe him more than $7 million dollars over the next three years, they instead are "giving it a whirl" with Bill Muir as "Offensive Coordinator".

who has said he is going to be QB coach?
i dont know what was talked about when haley was hired in regards to the OC position. everything you are saying in regards to his job duties is an assumption right now.

so you are under the assumption that they would rather fire haley at this point?

Detoxing
02-04-2011, 04:58 PM
As a Cardinals-Chiefs-Mizzou fan I'm simultaneously dealing with

1) The dumbassery of the Chiefs
2) The disappointment of MU basketball
3) Losing Gabbert (my favorite MU player ever) to the draft along with Aldon Smith
4) A disappointing CFB recruiting class
5) The Tony Mitchell debacle
6) The spectre of losing the best player I've ever seen (who is also my current favorite athlete) leave the team I've rooted for the longest (Pujols).

Sports is thoroughly ****ing depressing for me right now. The only thing I have going for me is the dynasty I've built with the Toronto Raptors in NBA 2K11.

So.....should we put you on suicide watch???

DaneMcCloud
02-04-2011, 04:59 PM
who has said he is going to be QB coach?


Jason, Haley did act as the QB coach in 2009.

Head coach, offensive coordinator, QB coach.

Now, can you tell me with a straight face that Clark Hunt and Scott Pioli implicitly hired Todd Haley to perform all three duties?


i dont know what was talked about when haley was hired in regards to the OC position. everything you are saying in regards to his job duties is an assumption right now.

My "source" informed me weeks ago that Todd Haley would be calling plays for the Chiefs in 2011. To date, I've seen or heard nothing that proves otherwise.

so you are under the assumption that they would rather fire haley at this point?

Quite honestly, I have no idea. But I find it extremely hard to believe that Pioli and Hunt would have hired Haley, a first timer, to run the offense solely on his own, while acting as head coach.

ChiefsandO'sfan
02-04-2011, 05:02 PM
Jason, Haley did act as the QB coach in 2009.

Head coach, offensive coordinator, QB coach.

Now, can you tell me with a straight face that Clark Hunt and Scott Pioli implicitly hired Todd Haley to perform all three duties?




My "source" informed me weeks ago that Todd Haley would be calling plays for the Chiefs in 2011. To date, I've seen or heard nothing that proves otherwise.


Quite honestly, I have no idea. But I find it extremely hard to believe that Pioli and Hunt would have hired Haley, a first timer, to run the offense solely on his own, while acting as head coach.



ROFLROFLROFLROFLROFLROFLROFLROFL Dude its been out there for a month that haley will call the plays

ChiefsandO'sfan
02-04-2011, 05:03 PM
My "source" informed me that dane is full of shit.

ChiefsandO'sfan
02-04-2011, 05:09 PM
Haley has been successful in EVERY stop of his coaching career.

Wether its coaching WR's (he has had a pro bowl receiver EVERYWHERE he has been. Keyshawn Johnson has nothing but rave reviews of Haley and how he coached him from afar.)

or coaching offense (ARI)

DaneMcCloud
02-04-2011, 05:13 PM
ROFLROFLROFLROFLROFLROFLROFLROFL Dude its been out there for a month that haley will call the plays

It has been speculated by a few in the media.

I can tell you that I was told that Haley would be calling the plays by someone that has nothing to do with the media.

Laugh all you want, Jackass. It doesn't make the information that I was given untrue.

DTLB58
02-04-2011, 05:45 PM
Do I like this move? Not really.

Do I think Haley needs someone needs to be OC so he can focus on being HC? Yep

Now, having said that....One of the reasons I wanted Todd as HC was because of his knowledge of the passing game and aggresivness as a playcaller.

So I'm back to what I said about Herm, at least he will do it his way and there won't be any excuses at the end of the Todd's time. We will know 100% whether or not this guy was good enough or not.

If I were Todd, that's the way I would want it to be also.

DTLB58
02-04-2011, 05:55 PM
And how do you know this? Haley is a better OC then anyone out there that the chiefs could of got.

True, Plus it could just be a case of the right guy that Todd wants isn't available kinda like the OC and DC in year 1. So instead of bringing someone who wants to change the whole system and terminology him and Muir will just keep the same system till someone becomes available. Possibly?

JASONSAUTO
02-04-2011, 06:08 PM
I was talking about 2011 in regards to qb coach. Jason, Haley did act as the QB coach in 2009.

Head coach, offensive coordinator, QB coach.

Now, can you tell me with a straight face that Clark Hunt and Scott Pioli implicitly hired Todd Haley to perform all three duties?




My "source" informed me weeks ago that Todd Haley would be calling plays for the Chiefs in 2011. To date, I've seen or heard nothing that proves otherwise.



Quite honestly, I have no idea. But I find it extremely hard to believe that Pioli and Hunt would have hired Haley, a first timer, to run the offense solely on his own, while acting as head coach.
Posted via Mobile Device

JASONSAUTO
02-04-2011, 06:09 PM
wasn't mccarthy a first timer too?
Posted via Mobile Device

JASONSAUTO
02-04-2011, 06:11 PM
good post, Do I like this move? Not really.

Do I think Haley needs someone needs to be OC so he can focus on being HC? Yep

Now, having said that....One of the reasons I wanted Todd as HC was because of his knowledge of the passing game and aggresivness as a playcaller.

So I'm back to what I said about Herm, at least he will do it his way and there won't be any excuses at the end of the Todd's time. We will know 100% whether or not this guy was good enough or not.

If I were Todd, that's the way I would want it to be also.
Posted via Mobile Device

DaneMcCloud
02-04-2011, 06:13 PM
wasn't mccarthy a first timer too?
Posted via Mobile Device

First timer what?

You're choosing to overlook the situation, entirely.

milkman
02-04-2011, 07:24 PM
First timer what?

You're choosing to overlook the situation, entirely.

First timer as a HC and playcaller, who by the way, was garbage as an OC in New Orleans and San Francisco before getting the HC gig in Green Bay.

How he got that job is is question that was asked by fans and media everywhere.

We laughed at Green Bay for making that choice.

And he then eventually promoted a marginal OL coach to OC.

DaneMcCloud
02-04-2011, 07:30 PM
First timer as a HC and playcaller, who by the way, was garbage as an OC in New Orleans and San Francisco before getting the HC gig in Green Bay.

How he got that job is is question that was asked by fans and media everywhere.

We laughed at Green Bay for making that choice.

And he then eventually promoted a marginal OL coach to OC.

You haven't read the entire thread, I presume?

First, when I stated that McCarthy, Shanahan, Payton, etc. where expressly hired as Head Coaches that would call plays offensively, Sauto asked for a link.

I sent him to Google.

Then, when he failed to find a link, I found one for him.

His basic argument is that those guys could do it, why can't Haley?

I countered, stating that Pioli & Hunt did not hire Haley with the intent of him calling the plays offensively, that he was to be the head coach, only.

Then Jason, once again, moves the goalposts and says "XXX did it, didn't they?

It's pure nonsense.

As far as Mac, I certainly didn't laugh, especially since I actually know the guy, hung out with him on several occasions and was in another close friend's wedding. And, you're incorrect about his time in New Orleans. He was quite good and they made the playoffs under his guidance.

He had a bad year in San Fran, but San Fran has sucked since York took control of the team. Big deal.

milkman
02-04-2011, 07:40 PM
You haven't read the entire thread, I presume?

First, when I stated that McCarthy, Shanahan, Payton, etc. where expressly hired as Head Coaches that would call plays offensively, Sauto asked for a link.

I sent him to Google.

Then, when he failed to find a link, I found one for him.

His basic argument is that those guys could do it, why can't Haley?

I countered, stating that Pioli & Hunt did not hire Haley with the intent of him calling the plays offensively, that he was to be the head coach, only.

Then Jason, once again, moves the goalposts and says "XXX did it, didn't they?

It's pure nonsense.

As far as Mac, I certainly didn't laugh, especially since I actually know the guy, hung out with him on several occasions and was in another close friend's wedding. And, you're incorrect about his time in New Orleans. He was quite good and they made the playoffs under his guidance.

He had a bad year in San Fran, but San Fran has sucked since York took control of the team. Big deal.

At the end of the day, it doesn't matter what they hired him to do, or not do.

What matters is they are allowing him to do it his way.

If he fails, he will be held accountable.

As for McCarthy, if I'm not misremembering, he had 3 or 4 seasons as the Saints OC and his best season was his first, and the offense declined in each season after.

-King-
02-04-2011, 07:46 PM
At the end of the day, it doesn't matter what they hired him to do, or not do.

What matters is they are allowing him to do it his way.

If he fails, he will be held accountable.

As for McCarthy, if I'm not misremembering, he had 3 or 4 seasons as the Saints OC and his best season was his first, and the offense declined in each season after.

00 - 10th in yards 10th in points
01 - 10th in yards 13th in points
02 - 19th in yards 3rd in points
03 - 15th in yards 14th in points
04 - 20th in yards 31st in points


*I'm sure the points ranks are for the whole team and not just offense. So his offenses were probably worse than they seem here.

philfree
02-04-2011, 07:49 PM
I countered, stating that Pioli & Hunt did not hire Haley with the intent of him calling the plays offensively, that he was to be the head coach, only

I don't think Haley would have taken the job if they told him he couldn't decide wether or not he could act as his own OC or call the plays. And if they told him he couldn't and then he did anyway wouldn't he have been fired at the earliest opportunity? They didn't and a year later he's going to do it again. Yup he was hired to be a HC only.


PhilFree:arrow:

milkman
02-04-2011, 07:50 PM
Just looked it up.

McCarthy spent 5 seasons in New Orleans as the Saints OC.
His offenses finished 3rd in points scored in 2002 (his thrid season), and finished in the 10th in yards twice, in his first two seasons.

He basically went from okay to mediocre.

milkman
02-04-2011, 07:53 PM
00 - 10th in yards 10th in points
01 - 10th in yards 13th in points
02 - 19th in yards 3rd in points
03 - 15th in yards 14th in points
04 - 20th in yards 31st in points


*I'm sure the points ranks are for the whole team and not just offense. So his offenses were probably worse than they seem here.

Way ahead of me.

Bastard!

:cuss:

DaneMcCloud
02-04-2011, 07:56 PM
I don't think Haley would have taken the job if they told him he couldn't decide wether or not he could act as his own OC or call the plays. And if they told him he couldn't and then he did anyway wouldn't he have been fired at the earliest opportunity? They didn't and a year later he's going to do it again. Yup he was hired to be a HC only.


PhilFree:arrow:

Nice rationalization.

:rolleyes:

DaneMcCloud
02-04-2011, 07:57 PM
*I'm sure the points ranks are for the whole team and not just offense. So his offenses were probably worse than they seem here.

Yeah, and he's been a drama queen that's blown chunks since he arrived in Green Bay.

philfree
02-04-2011, 08:05 PM
Nice rationalization.:rolleyes:

Thank you.

So you have your source who was in on the negotiations? mmmm Or you somehow rationalized that when Haley was hired it was with the stipulation that he wasn't allowd to call the plays?

I feel like I could just as easliy roll my eyes at you my friend.

PhilFree:arrow:

milkman
02-04-2011, 08:16 PM
Yeah, and he's been a drama queen that's blown chunks since he arrived in Green Bay.

I think his point is, as is mine, that McCarthy's resume doesn't suggest that he would have the success that he's had in his situation.

DeezNutz
02-04-2011, 08:22 PM
I think his point is, as is mine, that McCarthy's resume doesn't suggest that he would have the success that he's had in his situation.

Great draft picks and a franchise QB can go a long way toward elevating average coaching.

I wonder what that's like?

milkman
02-04-2011, 08:30 PM
Great draft picks and a franchise QB can go a long way toward elevating average coaching.

I wonder what that's like?

That's why I said earlier, none of this really matters.

On offense, it all begins with the QB.

NWTF
02-04-2011, 09:19 PM
That's why I said earlier, none of this really matters.

On offense, it all begins with the QB.

I believe that to be true also.

I do think that with good coaching (Charlie Weis) Cassel could have become good enough. ie Eli Manning, Brad Johnson, not great QBs but, good enough with a supporting cast.

I dont think Haley has a positive impact on Cassel. Actually I think he has the exact opposite effect on him. I think this is where Wies will be missed the most and failure to replace the (QB coach) part will leave them looking for a new QB for 2012. I think Haley underestimated this, not for stepping on Charlies toes but for not bringing in someone who could pick up where Weis left off as far as the QB goes.