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BigMeatballDave
02-07-2011, 04:11 PM
Aaron Rogers.

He's the best now.

Poll to follow...

loochy
02-07-2011, 04:14 PM
Mark Castle

KCinNY
02-07-2011, 04:14 PM
Rodgers is damn good.

But I'd still take Brady.

Bi_polar
02-07-2011, 04:16 PM
probably this coming year, I'd say 'yes' -- unless Mark Castle stays healthy.

Fruit Ninja
02-07-2011, 04:17 PM
I still say Tom Brady. He didnt win the Superbowl, but for fuck sake, look what he did with the Recievers he has. Packers recievers>Patriots ones imo.

Everyone has their own opinion though.

DBOSHO
02-07-2011, 04:17 PM
Tom.

Molitoth
02-07-2011, 04:18 PM
I'm gonna choose Peyton Manning... Although I'd take Rodgers, Brady, Rivers, or Brees just as easily.

chiefzilla1501
02-07-2011, 04:19 PM
Rodgers is damn good.

But I'd still take Brady.

Agreed.

One thing about Rodgers is that with his style of play, you have to wonder how long he can keep it up. 2 concussions in one year--not something to be taken lightly.

Sweet Daddy Hate
02-07-2011, 04:19 PM
Mark Castle

This.

Rain Man
02-07-2011, 04:23 PM
No dog killer in the options?

I went with Manning out of habit, but it's hard to tell between him and Brady, and I wouldn't disagree with someone who picked Rodgers, either.

KC Tattoo
02-07-2011, 04:27 PM
For most of the season Packers had no running game. I'd put my money on Rodgers he is ICE.

Gonzo
02-07-2011, 04:32 PM
Hootie's obligatory Peyton man-crush post in 3...2...
Posted via Mobile Device

keg in kc
02-07-2011, 04:32 PM
Brady's the best, but Rodgers has put himself into the discussion with guys like (P) Manning and Brees and Rivers and Roethlisraper.

SNR
02-07-2011, 04:33 PM
People jizz all over Ben Roethlisberger because he's clutch in the 4th quarter.

Well, Aaron Rodgers is clutch in the 4th quarter, too. And the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd quarters too.


He's got the best combination of sizzle, cool, toughness, smarts, talent, and athleticism. And nerves.

Between Rodgers and Brady. Rodgers threw fewer picks while throwing more passes. I'll take Rodgers.

JD10367
02-07-2011, 04:33 PM
I think the margin of error separating these guys is very small. I don't think you could go wrong starting an NFL team with any of them.

1.) Brady: has done more, with less, and had farther to go to be great.
2.) Manning: the golden boy with the stats, doesn't produce in the clutch as much.
3.) Brees: has all the talents, has won one SB. Solid.
4.) Rodgers: up and coming, need to see it for a longer duration.
5.) Rivers: hurt by his lack of postseason success.
6.) Rapistburger: can scramble and make plays, but as a pure QB is still sixth in this bunch.

I didn't include Mark Castle. He's not worthy of putting in this discussion, unless and until he performs well for more than one season. He now has two: 2008 (NE) and 2010 (KC). If he shines in 2011, he might move up into the top group with these guys.

Psyko Tek
02-07-2011, 04:36 PM
today it is Rodgers

jojomontana
02-07-2011, 04:36 PM
Cutler

keg in kc
02-07-2011, 04:39 PM
Between Rodgers and Brady. Rodgers threw fewer picks while throwing more passes. I'll take Rodgers.I think you got those two backwards. Brady only threw 4 picks on 492 attempts. Rodgers threw 11 on 475.

SNR
02-07-2011, 04:44 PM
I think you got those two backwards. Brady only threw 4 picks on 492 attempts. Rodgers throw 11 on 475.Nah, it's just selective memory on my part. I was thinking about postseason games, since that's when we've seen Rodgers transform into an artist on the football field.

But point noted.

Rodgers is still the hottest QB right now and has more sizzle than Brady. But Brady is better, yeah.

Eh, whatever.

keg in kc
02-07-2011, 04:49 PM
Nah, it's just selective memory on my part. I was thinking about postseason games, since that's when we've seen Rodgers transform into an artist on the football field.

But point noted.

Rodgers is still the hottest QB right now and has more sizzle than Brady. But Brady is better, yeah.

Eh, whatever.Oh, I got no problem with saying Rodgers is better, I was just pointing out the error with the reason you gave.

To me, Brady is a quarterback who's done more with less than just about anybody in NFL history. It doesn't matter who his receivers are, it doesn't matter who his backs are.

Now the Patriots as a franchise are not what they were 5 years ago - in fact I think the Steelers are more of a dynasty right now. But Brady as a quarterback hasn't lost anything. What he did this season, and who he did it with, is pretty amazing.

Gadzooks
02-07-2011, 05:09 PM
I thought we all decided last year that Brees is the best QB.

And what's all this B.S. aboot Brady doing "more with less". The guy had Randy fuckin Moss, Wes Welker, and a shit load of other middle to good receivers.
Look at what Peyton and Rivers did, statistically, with what they had at WR this year. Plus, Peyton had almost zero protection.

KC Tattoo
02-07-2011, 05:21 PM
I think Matt Ryan is going to have a hell of a season next year (if season) He did pretty damn good this year.

Count Zarth
02-07-2011, 05:23 PM
I still like Rivers.

What he does with shit receivers is amazing.

Sweet Daddy Hate
02-07-2011, 05:24 PM
I think Matt Ryan is going to have a hell of a season next year (if season) He did pretty damn good this year.

Isn't Atlanta one of the "Patriot Way" branches? If so, they got the healthy sapling off the tree.

Count Zarth
02-07-2011, 05:25 PM
The one thing I will say about Rodgers is his legs add a dimension no one else on this list has.

He had 350 yards rushing and 4 TDs this year. If he wasn't such a great passer he could run for 500 a year easy.

KC_Connection
02-07-2011, 05:27 PM
Vick should be an option, but it is Brady, as much as I hate to admit it.

Dante84
02-07-2011, 05:31 PM
Brady only got the MVP unanimously.

So prolly not him.

MahiMike
02-07-2011, 05:32 PM
All of the above.

JASONSAUTO
02-07-2011, 05:35 PM
Brady
Manning
Rodgers
Rapeherfurburger
Brees
Rivers
Posted via Mobile Device

Jewish Rabbi
02-07-2011, 05:35 PM
Michael Vick Show baby

Chiefs Rool
02-07-2011, 05:38 PM
Tony Romo

JD10367
02-07-2011, 05:42 PM
And what's all this B.S. aboot Brady doing "more with less". The guy had Randy ****in Moss, Wes Welker, and a shit load of other middle to good receivers.

Brady had "old" Randy Moss for two years, 2007 (where he went out and set ridiculous records with him) and 2009 (where Brady was coming back from a knee injury). And Moss left quickly this season.

Welker was a "who dat" before arriving in New England, is around three feet six, and was also coming back from injury. Branch, while a previous SB MVP, had done diddlyshit in Seattle. Danny Woodhead was so awesome he was cut from the Jets and when the Pats picked him up almost everyone thought he was a "pick his brains and cut him" guy (and, like Welker, he's around three feet six). Brandon Tate is a raw speed guy who is unpolished. The two rookie TEs look like they will be studs but, ultimately, were unknown rookies.

Peyton Manning spent his career with a great WR (first Marvin Harrison, then Reggie Wayne). He had Dallas Clark. He had great running backs (Marshall Faulk, Edgerrin James). Go look at the list of Patriots WRs, RBs, and TEs for the past 10 years, see who jumps out at you. A supposedly over-the-hill Corey Dillon? Antowain Smith? Troy Brown, drafted in a round so late it no longer exists? His best TE before this season was probably Jermaine Wiggins. I wonder what Brady's career would've looked like with a Marvin Harrison and a Dallas Clark along for the ride.

Pioli Zombie
02-07-2011, 05:52 PM
Mass Asshle is clearly the best. The man threw for 70 yards in just one playoff game what more does he have to do??

listopencil
02-07-2011, 05:57 PM
Brady used to be the best til his knee injury screwed w/ his mind. Now I'd say Manning.

Pioli Zombie
02-07-2011, 05:59 PM
Brady used to be the best til his knee injury screwed w/ his mind. Now I'd say Manning.
You just blew me away with that genius.

Pioli Zombie
02-07-2011, 06:00 PM
No one compares with the legendary Cunty Cunterson.

listopencil
02-07-2011, 06:02 PM
This message is hidden because Pioli Zombie is on your ignore list (http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/profile.php?do=ignorelist).

Brock
02-07-2011, 06:03 PM
Brady used to be the best til his knee injury screwed w/ his mind. Now I'd say Manning.

Manning looks more and more human these days.

Gadzooks
02-07-2011, 06:03 PM
Brady had "old" Randy Moss for two years, 2007 (where he went out and set ridiculous records with him) and 2009 (where Brady was coming back from a knee injury). And left quickly this season.

Welker was a "who dat" before arriving in New England, is around three feet six, and was also coming back from injury. Branch, while a previous SB MVP, had done diddlyshit in Seattle. Danny Woodhead was so awesome he was cut from the Jets and when the Pats picked him up almost everyone thought he was a "pick his brains and cut him" guy (and, like Welker, he's around three feet six). Brandon Tate is a raw speed guy who is unpolished. The two rookie TEs look like they will be studs but, ultimately, were unknown rookies.


- Moss was far from "old" although BB was wise to drop him when he did due to the economics of keeping him
-Welker and Woodhead are similar talents that BB and takes great advantage of in their Offensive scheme. They're waterbug type players who make things happen with their speed.
- Gronkowski & Hernandez were hardly unheralded coming out of college

Using this logic look at what Rivers has done with what he has.
Gates, an UDFA who didn't play college FB.
Vincent Jackson, an unheard of player out of Northern Colorado.
Malcolm Flyod, another UDFA.
Man, Rivers must be the awesomest.:p

Tribal Warfare
02-07-2011, 06:04 PM
The one thing I will say about Rodgers is his legs add a dimension no one else on this list has.

He had 350 yards rushing and 4 TDs this year. If he wasn't such a great passer he could run for 500 a year easy.

Rodgers' is the prototypical west coast QB, if nothing is open he has enough quicks to pick up enough yards for a 1st or a TD when it's called upon.

Pioli Zombie
02-07-2011, 06:05 PM
Yay I finally made someones ignore list. High Fives!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Count Zarth
02-07-2011, 06:05 PM
Rivers is also saddled with a poor head coach, no other QB on this list can really claim that.

Brock
02-07-2011, 06:06 PM
Rivers is also saddled with a poor head coach, no other QB on this list can really claim that.

Peyton has a shitty head coach.

listopencil
02-07-2011, 06:07 PM
Manning looks more and more human these days.


I think the Colts aren't as talented as they used to be honestly. Across the board. I'd still go with Manning though.

stevieray
02-07-2011, 06:17 PM
While these are great QB's, I think they benefit form the recent rules that protect them.

Gadzooks
02-07-2011, 06:19 PM
Otto Graham was better than all of these chumps.

jd1020
02-07-2011, 08:52 PM
Brady is still the best by a long shot, imo.

Rodgers had a great post season but, taking age out of the question, he's still the 4th QB drafted if there was a redraft, behind Brady, Manning, and Brees.

Gadzooks
02-07-2011, 09:10 PM
Brees was known as an inaccurate midget until last season.

TheGuardian
02-07-2011, 09:13 PM
I like Rodgers as much as the next guy, but wow what a knee jerk reaction poll.

Fucking dumb.

Mr. Laz
02-07-2011, 09:14 PM
Matt Cassel FTMFW!!!

TheGuardian
02-07-2011, 09:15 PM
Brees was known as an inaccurate midget until last season.

Uhhhh what????

Completion % by year...

04 - 65.5
05 - 64.6
06 - 64.3
07 - 67.5
08 - 65.0
09 - 70.6
10 - 68.1

What year exactly was it he was considered inaccurate in?

milkman
02-07-2011, 09:35 PM
Manning looks more and more human these days.

Peyton Manning and Brett Favre are the two most overrated QBs in NFL history.

Rodgers' is the prototypical west coast QB, if nothing is open he has enough quicks to pick up enough yards for a 1st or a TD when it's called upon.

The QB Whisperer chimes in with his dumbassery again.

Good job.

While these are great QB's, I think they benefit form the recent rules that protect them.

Finally, someone else gets it.

Gadzooks
02-07-2011, 09:35 PM
Uhhhh what????

Completion % by year...

04 - 65.5
05 - 64.6
06 - 64.3
07 - 67.5
08 - 65.0
09 - 70.6
10 - 68.1

What year exactly was it he was considered inaccurate in?

I'm saying any new guy who wins the SB is now considered the second coming.

Brees was a horror to watch in the 2003 season.

milkman
02-07-2011, 09:37 PM
I'm saying any new guy who wins the SB is now considered the second coming.

Brees was a horror to watch in the 2003 season.

So, what you're saying is that he wasn't a polished product right out of school.

Who knew?

Sweet Daddy Hate
02-07-2011, 09:38 PM
Mass Asshle is clearly the best. The man threw for 70 yards in just one playoff game what more does he have to do??

Some guys just "have it".:thumb:

Gadzooks
02-07-2011, 09:40 PM
So, what you're saying is that he wasn't a polished product right out of school.

Who knew?

Rapelisberger and SheLi Manning were? Give me a break...
People put way too much stock into championships. I happen to beleive Marino was a better QB than Dilfer.

Buck
02-07-2011, 09:41 PM
I know that Manning is the New Favre, but nobody EVER controlled the field like he did in his prime.

milkman
02-07-2011, 09:51 PM
Rapelisberger and SheLi Manning were? Give me a break...
People put way too much stock into championships. I happen to beleive Marino was a better QB than Dilfer.

Who said anything about championships?

And neither Roethlisberger nor Eli Manning were polished right out of school.

Extra Point
02-07-2011, 09:57 PM
Today (actually, during the playoffs and yesterday), as mentioned before, Rodgers. I doubt his next four years will include conf. championship games.

Over time, Brady, beyond a shadow of a doubt.

Rivers is good when the middle short is unprotected.

Short Leash Hootie
02-07-2011, 10:01 PM
still going with Peyton Manning until further notice...

Most gifted? Aaron Rodgers.

But right now Peyton is still the best.

Gadzooks
02-07-2011, 10:06 PM
Who said anything about championships?

And neither Roethlisberger nor Eli Manning were polished right out of school.

My point is any QB who wins the coveted Lombardi trophy suddenly becomes a "QB of the ages" to the average fan. The fact that Rodgers has such a high percentage in this poll supports my argument.
IMO, Rodgers is 10 X the QB that Roethlisberger has ever been but it took the trophy for him to be recognized. Had Roethlisberger's team won he would have been put on a higher pedestal. Had Eli Manning or Josh Freeman won they would be in the poll.
It's silly because the game of Football has so many other variables that it skews peoples opinions of QB play based solely on championships.

I am disappoint...

listopencil
02-07-2011, 10:09 PM
Finally, someone else gets it.

This isn't a poll about best all time, just best currently. That means you have no choice but to go by today's rules, those are the rules that all these QB's play under. Apples and oranges.

Sweet Daddy Hate
02-07-2011, 10:10 PM
My point is any QB who wins the coveted Lombardi trophy suddenly becomes a "QB of the ages" to the average fan. The fact that Rodgers has such a high percentage in this poll supports my argument.
IMO, Rodgers is 10 X the QB that Roethlisberger has ever been but it took the trophy for him to be recognized. Had Roethlisberger's team won he would have been put on a higher pedestal. Had Eli Manning or Josh Freeman won they would be in the poll.
It's silly because the game of Football has so many other variables that it skews peoples opinions of QB play based solely on championships.

I am disappoint...

He may not be "for the ages" yet, but he's clearly been growing each year.

Dylan
02-07-2011, 10:12 PM
I think the margin of error separating these guys is very small. I don't think you could go wrong starting an NFL team with any of them.

1.) Brady: has done more, with less, and had farther to go to be great.
2.) Manning: the golden boy with the stats, doesn't produce in the clutch as much.
3.) Brees: has all the talents, has won one SB. Solid.
4.) Rodgers: up and coming, need to see it for a longer duration.
5.) Rivers: hurt by his lack of postseason success.
6.) Rapistburger: can scramble and make plays, but as a pure QB is still sixth in this bunch.

I didn't include Mark Castle. He's not worthy of putting in this discussion, unless and until he performs well for more than one season. He now has two: 2008 (NE) and 2010 (KC). If he shines in 2011, he might move up into the top group with these guys.


:facepalm:

KCrockaholic
02-07-2011, 10:15 PM
1. Tom Brady

2. Aaron Rodgers.

But if I had the pick of any QB in the NFL to start a franchise with, it would be Aaron Rodgers. He is unreal.

Gadzooks
02-07-2011, 10:19 PM
He may not be "for the ages" yet, but he's clearly been growing each year.

I've got nothing against him. It was a feel good story. I'm just not a fan of the hype machine that comes from a SB win.
Most fans have had Rodgers as a top tier QB for a while now but to say he's No.1 in the league at this point is odd considering that he didn't carry his team on his back or play saftey.

Sweet Daddy Hate
02-07-2011, 10:33 PM
I've got nothing against him. It was a feel good story. I'm just not a fan of the hype machine that comes from a SB win.
Most fans have had Rodgers as a top tier QB for a while now but to say he's No.1 in the league at this point is odd considering that he didn't carry his team on his back or play saftey.

Right on. I can appreciate your aversion to QB hype immensely.

Sure-Oz
02-07-2011, 10:41 PM
Brady and Rodgers

Short Leash Hootie
02-07-2011, 10:44 PM
Brady and Rodgers

next year when Cutler wins a Super Bowl and Rivers wins the MVP will you think those guys are the 2 best QB's in the NFL?

KC Tattoo
02-07-2011, 11:19 PM
Only one quarterback was worth a sh!t this season, and that was Aaron Rodgers. If you ain't first, your last.

L.A. Chieffan
02-07-2011, 11:29 PM
Cassel will surpass all these queers in the next two seasons

Sweet Daddy Hate
02-07-2011, 11:31 PM
Cassel will surpass all these queers in the next two seasons

When he finally comes out of the closet? Won't surprise me.

HoneyBadger
02-07-2011, 11:47 PM
How dare anyone hate on our Pro Bowl QB.

Dylan
02-07-2011, 11:54 PM
Quarterbacks are overrated. Who knows how those quarterbacks would have looked on a different team.

Quarterbacks are a product of their surroundings. In addition, they need to possess a certain set of skills to fit into their coaches system.

Granted, there are some talented quarterbacks in the NFL . However, quarterbacks don't win games on their own -- It takes a whole team to win in football.

Every player, including the scouts and the coaches decides the outcome of the game.


So where do we go from here?

Me? I gotta go to bed --

...and to all a good night. ... LMAO

please don't tear my flesh off...

-King-
02-08-2011, 03:06 AM
Quarterbacks are overrated?

What the fuc...? I don't even...? Wtf?
Posted via Mobile Device

Saccopoo
02-08-2011, 03:21 AM
Weird how one draft gets a quarterback from the most sacked in the NFL to the Super Bowl MVP...

http://packerchatters.com/wp-content/uploads/5006865118_5282a2dc22_z1.jpg

But let's hope we draft a defensive end in 2011 because we don't think Tyson Jackson is playing up to the draft pick.

(Amazing what happens when a quarterback stops worrying about getting slaughtered when they step back in the pocket.)

BigMeatballDave
02-08-2011, 03:40 AM
Weird how one draft gets a quarterback from the most sacked in the NFL to the Super Bowl MVP...

http://packerchatters.com/wp-content/uploads/5006865118_5282a2dc22_z1.jpg

But let's hope we draft a defensive end in 2011 because we don't think Tyson Jackson is playing up to the draft pick.

(Amazing what happens when a quarterback stops worrying about getting slaughtered when they step back in the pocket.)ROFL Saccapoo---> Offensive lineman---> :whackit:

BigMeatballDave
02-08-2011, 03:42 AM
Quarterbacks are overrated. Who knows how those quarterbacks would have looked on a different team.

Quarterbacks are a product of their surroundings. In addition, they need to possess a certain set of skills to fit into their coaches system.

Granted, there are some talented quarterbacks in the NFL . However, quarterbacks don't win games on their own -- It takes a whole team to win in football.

Every player, including the scouts and the coaches decides the outcome of the game.


So where do we go from here?

Me? I gotta go to bed --

...and to all a good night. ... LMAO

please don't tear my flesh off...Sorry, but :spock:

BigMeatballDave
02-08-2011, 03:46 AM
next year when Cutler wins a Super Bowl Not happening. Ever. IF the Bears win one, it will be because of their D, not anything special Quitler did.

BigMeatballDave
02-08-2011, 03:53 AM
My point is any QB who wins the coveted Lombardi trophy suddenly becomes a "QB of the ages" to the average fan. The fact that Rodgers has such a high percentage in this poll supports my argument.
IMO, Rodgers is 10 X the QB that Roethlisberger has ever been but it took the trophy for him to be recognized. Had Roethlisberger's team won he would have been put on a higher pedestal. Had Eli Manning or Josh Freeman won they would be in the poll.
It's silly because the game of Football has so many other variables that it skews peoples opinions of QB play based solely on championships.

I am disappoint...BS Eli will never be in this poll. Freeman, who knows? Way too soon for him. I didnt base this on a championship. I based this on his play prior to this season, but mostly the way he played all post-season.

BigMeatballDave
02-08-2011, 04:03 AM
Zooks is butthurt because Rivers isnt getting any love... )

milkman
02-08-2011, 04:54 AM
This isn't a poll about best all time, just best currently. That means you have no choice but to go by today's rules, those are the rules that all these QB's play under. Apples and oranges.

That's irrelevant to me.

I don't ever vote in these useless polls.

I simply appreciate that someone else finally recognized that the rues have skewed things.

TheGuardian
02-08-2011, 07:00 AM
My point is any QB who wins the coveted Lombardi trophy suddenly becomes a "QB of the ages" to the average fan. The fact that Rodgers has such a high percentage in this poll supports my argument.
IMO, Rodgers is 10 X the QB that Roethlisberger has ever been but it took the trophy for him to be recognized. Had Roethlisberger's team won he would have been put on a higher pedestal. Had Eli Manning or Josh Freeman won they would be in the poll.
It's silly because the game of Football has so many other variables that it skews peoples opinions of QB play based solely on championships.

I am disappoint...

Oh I agree with this.

I'm a big fan of Rodgers. But anyone who really thinks he's the best QB in the NFL is acting like an idiot right now and overreacting because of the SB win.

If you had put this poll up last year Rodgers isn't on it, and Brees is getting those votes. The fact is, it's still Brady, Manning, and Brees.

milkman
02-08-2011, 07:12 AM
Oh I agree with this.

I'm a big fan of Rodgers. But anyone who really thinks he's the best QB in the NFL is acting like an idiot right now and overreacting because of the SB win.

If you had put this poll up last year Rodgers isn't on it, and Brees is getting those votes. The fact is, it's still Brady, Manning, and Brees.

At the same time, this also recognizes the growth that we've seen from Rodger in the last two years.

Last season, the talent was obvious.

The arm strength, the mobility, the accuracy.

But he also held onto the ball too long and he was much slower in going through his progressions.

This year his reads are outstanding, and he's getting the ball out fast.

The Steelers didn't appear to get any consistent pressure because Rodgers had the ball out so fast that they just didn't have the time to get there.

From a talent standpoint, none of the others in this poll have the combination of arm strength and accuracy and mobility that Rodgers possesses.

With his growth on the cerebral side of things, right now, Brady and Brees are the only two QBs I would take ahead of him, and he's closing fast on them.

And don't give me Manning.

I'll repeat what I said earlier (and for years).

One of the two most overrated QBs ever.

Dylan
02-08-2011, 11:40 AM
Sorry, but :spock:

Whichever defense plays better in postseason or in the Super Bowl will win the game. J/M/O

If you think the quarterback is the most important person on the team, so be it -- I respect your opinion. But I disagree.

SNR
02-08-2011, 12:50 PM
Weird how one draft gets a quarterback from the most sacked in the NFL to the Super Bowl MVP...

http://packerchatters.com/wp-content/uploads/5006865118_5282a2dc22_z1.jpg

But let's hope we draft a defensive end in 2011 because we don't think Tyson Jackson is playing up to the draft pick.

(Amazing what happens when a quarterback stops worrying about getting slaughtered when they step back in the pocket.)Did you watch the playoffs?

Bulaga was by far the worst player on that line (not counting the time when Chad Clifton went out during the Chicago game). Right now it's up in the air if he'll even live up to the talent and production level of *gasp* Brandon Albert

listopencil
02-08-2011, 01:11 PM
That's irrelevant to me.

I don't ever vote in these useless polls.

I simply appreciate that someone else finally recognized that the rues have skewed things.

Finally? What do you mean "finally"? You really think no one but you and Stevieray can tell how much the game has changed over the course of almost a century? You might as well say that you refuse to vote in this poll because water is wet. Your (and his) point has no bearing on this discussion.

listopencil
02-08-2011, 01:15 PM
Quarterbacks are a product of their surroundings.


Some are, some aren't. That's the difference between a "system" QB and a "franchise" QB.

Short Leash Hootie
02-08-2011, 02:04 PM
I don't think the Bears will win a Super Bowl...

I'm just saying...

this year Rodgers is the best, last year Brees was the best, the year before everyone was gaga for Warner and Roethlisberger, year before Manning...

every year I post a poll about Brady and Manning and every year (depending on who had the better year) you see 10 people keep an opinion and 150 people flip flop.

Thig Lyfe
02-08-2011, 02:32 PM
TYLER THIGPEN!!!!

milkman
02-08-2011, 02:41 PM
Finally? What do you mean "finally"? You really think no one but you and Stevieray can tell how much the game has changed over the course of almost a century? You might as well say that you refuse to vote in this poll because water is wet. Your (and his) point has no bearing on this discussion.

Finally someone else voiced it.

I didn't say anything about refusing to vote in this poll because of anything to do with this poll.

Pay attention.

I never vote in any polls posted.

BigMeatballDave
02-08-2011, 02:56 PM
I like Rodgers as much as the next guy, but wow what a knee jerk reaction poll.

Fucking dumb.fuck you and your whole family n the ass with pitchforks.

Its not kneejerk. I have been a fan of his since he's been a starter.

BigMeatballDave
02-08-2011, 02:59 PM
Whichever defense plays better in postseason or in the Super Bowl will win the game. J/M/O

If you think the quarterback is the most important person on the team, so be it -- I respect your opinion. But I disagree.The QB IS the most important position. Period. Its not even open to discussion.

Pestilence
02-08-2011, 03:20 PM
Right now?

1. Brady
2. Manning
3. Brees
4. Rodgers
5. Roethlisberger/Ryan

SNR
02-08-2011, 03:30 PM
I don't think the Bears will win a Super Bowl...

I'm just saying...

this year Rodgers is the best, last year Brees was the best, the year before everyone was gaga for Warner and Roethlisberger, year before Manning...

every year I post a poll about Brady and Manning and every year (depending on who had the better year) you see 10 people keep an opinion and 150 people flip flop.Who says you have to have a best QB in the league who stays the best for 5, 6, or 10 years at a time?

Rodgers was already top 5 at the start of last season. He's now top 3 for sure. Probably top 2. And you can make an argument based on his skills and sizzling play-making ability that he's #1. People have been doing just that in this thread.

I think the big deal with Brees last year was that pundits who loved Roethlisberger because he's clutch hated Brees because he had good stats but no playoff success. He won a Super Bowl, and the Brees-backers (including myself; I like Brees a lot) forced people to recognize how good he is. But I don't think anybody said Brees was best in the league.

Dylan
02-08-2011, 03:56 PM
The QB IS the most important position. Period. Its not even open to discussion.

No disrespect.

How did Joe Montana (alone) work out for the Chiefs?

Montana did not forget how to play the game of football...

Sweet Daddy Hate
02-08-2011, 03:58 PM
No disrespect.

How did Joe Montana work out for the Chiefs?

Damn good for a retiree. IMO.

DJ's left nut
02-08-2011, 04:01 PM
I sometimes wonder if Hootie alone is enough to sway opinion on this board.

Apart from a Patriots chat board, I can't imagine there's anywhere in football where the Manning/Brady question is that heavily in favor of Brady.

I guess I understand folks that pick Brady but damn, he's just flooring Manning in this poll. Hell, Manning coming in clearly behind Rodgers says something as well.

I think Hootie's dumb ass actually costs Manning votes.

My vote: Manning, Brady, Rodgers, Brees.

Though I'll note that Rodgers could be #1 as soon as next season. His combination of arm strength, accuracy and mobility is presently unmatched in the league. Then again, he could get another concussion and become a quivering mass.

Brock
02-08-2011, 04:02 PM
[/B]

No disrespect.

How did Joe Montana (alone) work out for the Chiefs?

Got them further than they have gotten any time since.

Pestilence
02-08-2011, 04:05 PM
I sometimes wonder if Hootie alone is enough to sway opinion on this board.

Apart from a Patriots chat board, I can't imagine there's anywhere in football where the Manning/Brady question is that heavily in favor of Brady.

I guess I understand folks that pick Brady but damn, he's just flooring Manning in this poll. Hell, Manning coming in clearly behind Rodgers says something as well.

I think Hootie's dumb ass actually costs Manning votes.

My vote: Manning, Brady, Rodgers, Brees.

Though I'll note that Rodgers could be #1 as soon as next season. His combination of arm strength, accuracy and mobility is presently unmatched in the league. Then again, he could get another concussion and become a quivering mass.

Manning isn't losing because of Hootie. Manning is losing because a majority of Chief's fans hate him for beating us.

FWIW....I voted for Manning.

milkman
02-08-2011, 04:05 PM
I sometimes wonder if Hootie alone is enough to sway opinion on this board.

Apart from a Patriots chat board, I can't imagine there's anywhere in football where the Manning/Brady question is that heavily in favor of Brady.

I guess I understand folks that pick Brady but damn, he's just flooring Manning in this poll. Hell, Manning coming in clearly behind Rodgers says something as well.

I think Hootie's dumb ass actually costs Manning votes.

My vote: Manning, Brady, Rodgers, Brees.

Though I'll note that Rodgers could be #1 as soon as next season. His combination of arm strength, accuracy and mobility is presently unmatched in the league. Then again, he could get another concussion and become a quivering mass.

I've been consistent in my opinion that Manning and Favre are the most overrated QBs ever long before I ever heard of Hootie.

Dylan
02-08-2011, 04:06 PM
Damn good for a retiree. IMO.

Then I'm happy for Chiefs' fans. ... ;)

However, defense wins championships -- They're just not sexy enough to get recognized.

milkman
02-08-2011, 04:06 PM
Manning isn't losing because of Hootie. Manning is losing because a majority of Chief's fans hate him for beating us.

FWIW....I voted for Manning.

I don't hate Manning.

I hate Dick.

Dylan
02-08-2011, 04:12 PM
Got them further than they have gotten any time since.

Ah, Brock, you know we're talking about Super Bowls, right?

Or are we? LOL

CoMoChief
02-08-2011, 04:16 PM
Peyton Manning

CoMoChief
02-08-2011, 04:21 PM
1. Peyton Manning
2. Tom Brady
3. Aaron Rodgers
4. Drew Brees
5. Philip Rivers
6. Matt Ryan
7. Ben Roethlisberger
8. Michael Vick
9. Matt Shaub
10. Tony Romo

Really though....there's 6 REALLY good QB's in the NFL (note: my top 6)...then there's everyone else IMO.

SNR
02-08-2011, 04:47 PM
1. Peyton Manning
2. Tom Brady
3. Aaron Rodgers
4. Drew Brees
5. Philip Rivers
6. Matt Ryan
7. Ben Roethlisberger
8. Michael Vick
9. Matt Shaub
10. Tony Romo

Really though....there's 6 REALLY good QB's in the NFL (note: my top 6)...then there's everyone else IMO.What has Matt Ryan done yet? He doesn't exactly put up awe-inspiring numbers and hasn't won anything in spite of his name "Matty Ice".

I'd take Roethlisberger, Vick, and Schaub all over Ryan

jd1020
02-08-2011, 04:51 PM
What has Matt Ryan done yet? He doesn't exactly put up awe-inspiring numbers and hasn't won anything in spite of his name "Matty Ice".

I'd take Roethlisberger, Vick, and Schaub all over Ryan

Schaub is a winner!

SNR
02-08-2011, 04:54 PM
Schaub is a winner!Puts up big numbers. If he ever learns to get rid of the ball quicker, he'll be a damn good franchise QB.

Right now he's a total system guy who's good enough to throw to some talented players and keep the offense clicking. Reminds me a bit of Trent Green. BTW, I'd rather have 2002-2005 Trent Green over Matt Ryan, too

jd1020
02-08-2011, 04:56 PM
Puts up big numbers. If he ever learns to get rid of the ball quicker, he'll be a damn good franchise QB

Ryan is already a damn good franchise QB and he's 4 years younger. So...

SNR
02-08-2011, 04:57 PM
Ryan is already a damn good franchise QB Meh

boogblaster
02-08-2011, 05:05 PM
Manning . Brady . Brees . Rogers

DBOSHO
02-08-2011, 05:07 PM
Lol matt ryan is better than big ben now....

Dylan
02-08-2011, 05:22 PM
Big Ben is a good quarterback, so why did the Steelers lose to the Packers in the Super Bowl?

Those three turnovers by the Steelers led to 21 points. The first turnover was intercepted and returned thirty-something yards for a TD. Why? Howard Green a 350 pound DT, slammed into Ben and caused the ball to flutter on a pass.

The second interception Ben was pinpoint accurate in tight coverage between 2-3 GB defensive tackles. The receiver had it in his hands but GB's safety or CB wrestled it away from the receiver to come up with the football.

The last turnover, Mendenhall fumbled the ball when two defensive tackles slammed into him hard at the same time to come up with the football.

If anything, it was failure on the Steelers defense to prevent TD's after two of those interceptions and their failure to stop Aaron Rodgers and GB's offense.

There is no question in my mind that quarterback is the most glamorous position on a football team.

Defense wins games. ...

Pestilence
02-08-2011, 05:27 PM
Big Ben is a good quarterback, so why did the Steelers lose to the Packers in the Super Bowl?

Those three turnovers by the Steelers led to 21 points. The first turnover was intercepted and returned thirty-something yards for a TD. Why? Howard Green a 350 pound DT, slammed into Ben and caused the ball to flutter on a pass.

The second interception Ben was pinpoint accurate in tight coverage between 2-3 GB defensive tackles. The receiver had it in his hands but GB's safety or CB wrestled it away from the receiver to come up with the football.

The last turnover, Mendenhall fumbled the ball when two defensive tackles slammed into him hard at the same time to come up with the football.
If anything, it was failure on the Steelers defense to prevent TD's after two of those interceptions and their failure to stop Aaron Rodgers and GB's offense.

There is no question in my mind that quarterback is the most glamorous position on a football team.

Defense wins games. ...

It wasnt' two DTs that hit Mendenhall. Matthews caused the fumble.

jd1020
02-08-2011, 05:29 PM
Big Ben is a good quarterback, so why did the Steelers lose to the Packers in the Super Bowl?

Those three turnovers by the Steelers led to 21 points. The first turnover was intercepted and returned thirty-something yards for a TD. Why? Howard Green a 350 pound DT, slammed into Ben and caused the ball to flutter on a pass.

The second interception Ben was pinpoint accurate in tight coverage between 2-3 GB defensive tackles. The receiver had it in his hands but GB's safety or CB wrestled it away from the receiver to come up with the football.

The last turnover, Mendenhall fumbled the ball when two defensive tackles slammed into him hard at the same time to come up with the football.

If anything, it was failure on the Steelers defense to prevent TD's after two of those interceptions and their failure to stop Aaron Rodgers and GB's offense.

There is no question in my mind that quarterback is the most glamorous position on a football team.

Defense wins games. ...

You do know that the Steelers D never got a chance to defend one of those INT's, right?

The Steelers lost because Rodgers outplayed Roethlisberger.

TheGuardian
02-08-2011, 05:31 PM
**** you and your whole family n the ass with pitchforks.

Its not kneejerk. I have been a fan of his since he's been a starter.

I don't care if you've been sucking him off since he was in the baby ward.

The fact is he isn't top 3. Don't really care what this board says. Manning, Brady, Brees are all better.

Dylan
02-08-2011, 05:33 PM
It wasnt' two DTs that hit Mendenhall. Matthews caused the fumble.

Thank you for the correction --

However, Matthews is a linebacker on Green Bay's defense.



Gawd, I love good defenses. ... :D

Pestilence
02-08-2011, 05:33 PM
I don't care if you've been sucking him off since he was in the baby ward.

The fact is he isn't top 3. Don't really care what this board says. Manning, Brady, Brees are all better.

So opinions don't matter......gotcha.

TheGuardian
02-08-2011, 05:39 PM
So opinions don't matter......gotcha.

When someone props up a poll after a SB win? Not really.

Again, if this had been made last year after the SB, Rodgers isn't even on the list and Brees is getting those votes.

doomy3
02-08-2011, 05:42 PM
When someone props up a poll after a SB win? Not really.

Again, if this had been made last year after the SB, Rodgers isn't even on the list and Brees is getting those votes.

I told several friends before the Super Bowl that there isn't a QB in the NFL that I would rather have over Rodgers. I stand by that.

If I was starting a team right now, and had the pool of players in the NFL available, I choose Rodgers #1 overall without a doubt.

Dylan
02-08-2011, 05:44 PM
You do know that the Steelers D never got a chance to defend one of those INT's, right?

The Steelers lost because Rodgers outplayed Roethlisberger.

The Steelers defense had no pass rush... How many times do you see a one dimensional team (Packers) win a Super Bowl? The Steelers defense lost them the Super Bowl. Just my opinion.


With six minutes left in the game, with the Steelers trailing by three after a touchdown and 2-point conversion, Green Bay had the ball on its 25. It was third-and-10. A stop there, the Packers would have punted and the Steelers would have had plenty of time to run their usual offense to either move into a tying field-goal try or possibly taking the lead with a touchdown.

Instead, Rodgers' pass sailed over the top of Ike Taylor and into the hands of Greg Jennings for a 31-yard completion and a first down that kept their drive to three more points going, a drive that would kill four more minutes.

Source: Recap of the game

KC Tattoo
02-08-2011, 05:58 PM
What has Matt Ryan done yet? He doesn't exactly put up awe-inspiring numbers and hasn't won anything in spite of his name "Matty Ice".

I'd take Roethlisberger, Vick, and Schaub all over Ryan


The key word is yet for Matt Ryan. He has the makings to go far and do well in the NFL. I wouldn't be surprised if he is in the NFC championship next year. The league is shifting to the younger QBs to take over. Manning and Brady are starting to get old & the QBs otf are on the rise. Sam Bradford can make huge strides this next year, so can Sanchez.

Having a young QB from the draft sure would be nice to build from.

listopencil
02-08-2011, 06:10 PM
Finally someone else voiced it.

I didn't say anything about refusing to vote in this poll because of anything to do with this poll.

Pay attention.

I never vote in any polls posted.

Stop being such a dumbass and read your own posts. You stated "Finally somebody else gets it." We all get it. We all know how the game has changed. Once again that has nothing to do with this thread. And I don't care if you vote in these polls or not. I was making an example of how stupid you're being with this. So...pay attention, maybe?

Gadzooks
02-08-2011, 06:10 PM
GAWD. I hope Flacco doesn't win it all next season 'cause this is gong to end up being a looong poll

Gadzooks
02-08-2011, 06:10 PM
That's what she said.

Pablo
02-08-2011, 06:34 PM
You weren't very good at watching football for nearly the last decade if you didn't pick Tom Brady.

SNR
02-08-2011, 06:37 PM
When someone props up a poll after a SB win? Not really.

Again, if this had been made last year after the SB, Rodgers isn't even on the list and Brees is getting those votes.
There's winning the Super Bowl

There's winning the Super Bowl and winning Super Bowl MVP.

Then there's winning the Super Bowl and winning Super Bowl MVP and playing the position of QB like Rodgers did in 3 road playoff games and the Super Bowl. In all four games he looked incredible. Unshaken. Icy cool.

His performance this postseason goes up there as one of the all-time greats.

He's better than Brees. And right now I'll say he's a better QB than Manning.

BossChief
02-08-2011, 06:58 PM
Rodgers has earned the right to be in the conversation with the elite in the league. He probably deserved to be in that conversation before this playoff run, but is surely in the conversation with his play.

He knocked the whole "big players play big in big games" thing straight out of the park as the stage got bigger and bigger and that is what you want from the position more than anything else.

Not sure if I would trade him for Tom Brady at an equal age, but I would have to think about it.

That team is building a dynasty in Wisconsin.

salame
02-08-2011, 07:07 PM
Rodgers has earned the right to be in the conversation with the elite in the league. He probably deserved to be in that conversation before this playoff run, but is surely in the conversation with his play.

He knocked the whole "big players play big in big games" thing straight out of the park as the stage got bigger and bigger and that is what you want from the position more than anything else.

Not sure if I would trade him for Tom Brady at an equal age, but I would have to think about it.

That team is building a dynasty in Wisconsin.

They are badasses up there

TheGuardian
02-08-2011, 07:08 PM
There's winning the Super Bowl

There's winning the Super Bowl and winning Super Bowl MVP.

Then there's winning the Super Bowl and winning Super Bowl MVP and playing the position of QB like Rodgers did in 3 road playoff games and the Super Bowl. In all four games he looked incredible. Unshaken. Icy cool.

His performance this postseason goes up there as one of the all-time greats.

He's better than Brees. And right now I'll say he's a better QB than Manning.

He's not better than Brees. Jesus Christ the hyperbole for Rodgers after this SB is insane.

BIG_DADDY
02-08-2011, 07:23 PM
Toss up, Brady and Manning.

BIG_DADDY
02-08-2011, 07:30 PM
Toss up, Brady and Manning.

That being said I voted for Brady. I had Rodgers in my FFL and fully realize the value of the guy. To say he is better than Brady or Manning though is just stupid IMO.

milkman
02-08-2011, 07:42 PM
Thank you for the correction --

However, Matthews is a linebacker on Green Bay's defense.



Gawd, I love good defenses. ... :D

I love good defense also.

But you stated in anther post that the Steelers didn't have a rush, which is far from true.

They did actually get several hits on Rodgers, but he was getting the ball out so quickly that it only appeared that they didn't have a rush.

His presnap reads were flawless, and he knew where he was going with the ball before it was snapped.

Nothing any pass rush can do about that.

Stop being such a dumbass and read your own posts. You stated "Finally somebody else gets it." We all get it. We all know how the game has changed. Once again that has nothing to do with this thread. And I don't care if you vote in these polls or not. I was making an example of how stupid you're being with this. So...pay attention, maybe?

The first point is that I have argued the point about the game changing with several posters who don't get it.

The second point, dumbass, is that obviously you didn't understand the reason that I didn't vote in this poll, which has nothing to do with the first point.

So **** off and shut the **** up, you useless prick.

SNR
02-08-2011, 07:45 PM
He's not better than Brees.Why isn't he better than Brees? What does Brees have that Rodgers doesn't?

milkman
02-08-2011, 07:48 PM
Why isn't he better than Brees? What does Brees have that Rodgers doesn't?

More experience.

Brees really couldn't overcome the loss of his running game the way that Rodgers did this season, and he also has a better O-Line.

But he's been playing longer, so clearly, he's better.

Extra Point
02-08-2011, 07:53 PM
Yeah, any quarterback in the sixth seed that wins a Super Bowl has got to suck. Heh.

SNR
02-08-2011, 07:54 PM
More experience.

Brees really couldn't overcome the loss of his running game the way that Rodgers did this season, and he also has a better O-Line.

But he's been playing longer, so clearly, he's better.You just said he couldn't overcome the loss of his running game the way that Rodgers did while having a better O line. Wouldn't that point to Rodgers being better in spite of Brees's experience?


Or were you being sarcastic?

milkman
02-08-2011, 07:56 PM
You just said he couldn't overcome the loss of his running game the way that Rodgers did while having a better O line. Wouldn't that point to Rodgers being better in spite of Brees's experience?


Or were you being sarcastic?

Looks like it's time for meter maintenance.

SNR
02-08-2011, 08:00 PM
:doh!: My bad

-King-
02-08-2011, 08:03 PM
I'll take Manning in the regular season and Rodgers/Brady in the post season please.

TheGuardian
02-08-2011, 08:13 PM
More experience.

Brees really couldn't overcome the loss of his running game the way that Rodgers did this season, and he also has a better O-Line.

But he's been playing longer, so clearly, he's better.

Dumb ass.

milkman
02-08-2011, 08:16 PM
Dumb ass.

You're the genious(cps), so tell, what does Brees do better?

Stronger arm?

No.

Better accuracy?

No.

More mobility?

No

So what makes Brees better?

TheGuardian
02-08-2011, 08:21 PM
You're the genious(cps), so tell, what does Brees do better?

Stronger arm?

No.

Better accuracy?

No.

More mobility?

No

So what makes Brees better?

Your post was ****ing stupid.

You said Brees couldn't overcome the lack of running game.

The Saints were were #6 in offense. The Packers were #9.

The both averaged 24 points a game.

The Packers actually had a better ground game than the Saints. 100 yards per game to the Saints 94.

So you said that shit because you just make shit up or are a ****ing moron?

I flat out don't expect you to admit you were wrong in saying such stupid shit.

He carried the ****ing team dipshit. To 11-5. The Pack was 10-6. The Saints lost in their playoff game because the defense laid a ****ing egg. Nothing to do with Brees. Pull your head out of your old wrinkled ass.

SNR
02-08-2011, 08:28 PM
He carried the ****ing team dipshit. .Good point. Rodgers is a loafer.

TheGuardian
02-08-2011, 08:30 PM
Good point. Rodgers is a loafer.

Well there's nothing like putting words in my mouth. I was replying to Milkmans pathetically stupid post that Brees somehow couldn't overcome a lack of running game while Rodgers did. The Saints offense was higher ranked in yard, scored the same number of points per game, and had a lesser ground game than the Pack, and won 1 more game.

So yeah, his shit was dumb and baseless.

SNR
02-08-2011, 08:31 PM
Well there's nothing like putting words in my mouth. I was replying to Milkmans pathetically stupid post that Brees somehow couldn't overcome a lack of running game while Rodgers did. The Saints offense was higher ranked in yard, scored the same number of points per game, and had a lesser ground game than the Pack, and won 1 more game.

So yeah, his shit was dumb and baseless.I still don't know why Brees is better than Rodgers.

I explained why I think Rodgers is better than Brees. Your turn.

Just Passin' By
02-08-2011, 08:32 PM
Brady by a mile, with the rest competing for second place.

TheGuardian
02-08-2011, 08:36 PM
I still don't know why Brees is better than Rodgers.

I explained why I think Rodgers is better than Brees. Your turn.

I think they are real similar actually. I think that Brees is a little more accurate, esp in his downfield passing. But over the past 3 years Brees has been better for certain in two of the three (09 and 08) by a pretty fair margin.

I think Rodgers was a little better this season but I want to see how he responds to being the hunted week in and week out next season as well.

Pioli Zombie
02-08-2011, 08:46 PM
I'd like to see Rodgers or Brees come back and play just days after a Hysterectomy like Cassel did.

milkman
02-08-2011, 08:54 PM
Well there's nothing like putting words in my mouth. I was replying to Milkmans pathetically stupid post that Brees somehow couldn't overcome a lack of running game while Rodgers did. The Saints offense was higher ranked in yard, scored the same number of points per game, and had a lesser ground game than the Pack, and won 1 more game.

So yeah, his shit was dumb and baseless.

There's one little problem that you seem to have missed.

When you take Aaron Rodger's rushing yards out of the equation, the Pack's ground game averaged less than 80 yards per game with their RBs.

The Saints, with Brees losing a total of 3 yards for the season on the ground, averaged 94 yards per game.

jd1020
02-08-2011, 08:54 PM
I'd like to see Rodgers or Brees come back and play just days after a Hysterectomy like Cassel did.

On the other hand, I'd like to see Cassel win a SB, as a Chief, like Brees and Rodgers.

Gadzooks
02-08-2011, 08:57 PM
Why isn't he better than Brees? What does Brees have that Rodgers doesn't?

A large hairy mole? a weaker arm? 2 inches shorter? 16 lbs lighter? an extra 5 years in age? What could it be?
:shrug:

BigMeatballDave
02-08-2011, 09:17 PM
That being said I voted for Brady. I had Rodgers in my FFL and fully realize the value of the guy. To say he is better than Brady or Manning though is just stupid IMO.Maybe, but Rogers played better this post season than Manning has in any post season in his career.

milkman
02-08-2011, 09:21 PM
Maybe, but Rogers played better this post season than Manning has in any post season in his career.

And his game against the Cards in last season's wild card game was better than any Manning playoff game, as well.

BIG_DADDY
02-08-2011, 09:24 PM
And his game against the Cards in last season's wild card game was better than any Manning playoff game, as well.

All things being level if you could put together a team are you seriously telling me you would pick Rodgers over Manning?

milkman
02-08-2011, 09:27 PM
All things being level if you could put together a team are you seriously telling me you would pick Rodgers over Manning?

I don't know if you have noticed through the years, but I've always said that Peyton Manning is (immensely) overrated and a playoff choker.

So yeah, if I have a choice, I'm taking Rodgers, and not even thinking about it.

BigMeatballDave
02-08-2011, 09:29 PM
All things being level if you could put together a team are you seriously telling me you would pick Rodgers over Manning?Right now? Rogers. Not. Even. Close.

BIG_DADDY
02-08-2011, 09:31 PM
IMO Rodgers has a much, much better team to work with.

listopencil
02-08-2011, 09:39 PM
The first point is that I have argued the point about the game changing with several posters who don't get it.

The second point, dumbass, is that obviously you didn't understand the reason that I didn't vote in this poll, which has nothing to do with the first point.

So **** off and shut the **** up, you useless prick.


First point: You are full of shit and you know it. Now you're just backtracking from your original statement.

Second point: Again, I couldn't give a shit less why you didn't vote in the poll. Learn to read. It doesn't matter. Much like your first point which, as I have already stated, has nothing to do with this thread. You obviously don't know your ass from a hole in the ground. So kiss my ass you mindless sack of shit. Do me a favor. When the grownups are talking football, sit the fuck down and shut the fuck up. That is all. Now get back in your hole, meat puppet.

milkman
02-08-2011, 09:49 PM
First point: You are full of shit and you know it. Now you're just backtracking from your original statement.

Second point: Again, I couldn't give a shit less why you didn't vote in the poll. Learn to read. It doesn't matter. Much like your first point which, as I have already stated, has nothing to do with this thread. You obviously don't know your ass from a hole in the ground. So kiss my ass you mindless sack of shit. Do me a favor. When the grownups are talking football, sit the **** down and shut the **** up. That is all. Now get back in your hole, meat puppet.

First, you dumbshit, I am not backtracking from anything.

I appreciated the fact that someone else brought it up, but that's too hard for your dumb ass to comprehend.

Second, you useless little donkey licker, I tell you why I didn't vote in this poll, because you couldn't understand the reason that I clearly stated to begin with why I didn't, and tried to make it about something that it was never about.

Learn to ****ing read.

listopencil
02-08-2011, 10:03 PM
First, you dumbshit, I am not backtracking from anything.

I appreciated the fact that someone else brought it up, but that's too hard for your dumb ass to comprehend.

Second, you useless little donkey licker, I tell you why I didn't vote in this poll, because you couldn't understand the reason that I clearly stated to begin with why I didn't, and tried to make it about something that it was never about.

Learn to ****ing read.

That's really all you got? You bore me.

SNR
02-08-2011, 10:19 PM
That's really all you got? You bore me.Heh. Isn't this a Tom-Cashism?

DaneMcCloud
02-08-2011, 10:59 PM
Tom Brady, by a long shot.

Manning, Brees, Rivers and Rodgers are certainly in the Top Five but Brady has done it over and over and over and over again, despite coaching changes, despite lesser personnel, despite his age and despite the competition.

I think that Rodgers has a very fine future ahead of him and the way the Pack are set up, it's conceivable that they'll win another Super Bowl in the next five years and maybe even two, if they're lucky.

But right now as of today, 2/8/2011, it's Tom Brady.

stevieray
02-08-2011, 11:06 PM
First point: You are full of shit and you know it. Now you're just backtracking from your original statement.

Second point: Again, I couldn't give a shit less why you didn't vote in the poll. Learn to read. It doesn't matter. Much like your first point which, as I have already stated, has nothing to do with this thread. You obviously don't know your ass from a hole in the ground. So kiss my ass you mindless sack of shit. Do me a favor. When the grownups are talking football, sit the **** down and shut the **** up. That is all. Now get back in your hole, meat puppet.

GTFO Donkey fanboy.

how long you been at the planet? eight years?..talk about a useless fan. pretty telling you have to come here to feel relevant.

Dylan
02-08-2011, 11:50 PM
Very interesting:

Excerpt: Quarterback post-season records and Simpson’s Paradox

How to break down each playoff game based on the level of support each quarterback received, from both the running game and the defense.

How about Brady and Manning? Without getting to this year's results, they look pretty similar. Brady went 4-0 and 2-0 in Easy and Gimme games, while Manning went 2-0 and 1-0 in those spots. Brady was 0-1 in Impossible games (the Ravens disaster last year) while Manning lost two such games.

Brady won his only Difficult game, against the Chargers when San Diego scored 21 points and outrushed New England by 96 yards when they weren't busy giving the game away.

Manning went 1-4 in Difficult games, beating Kansas City when neither team punted. In neutral games, Brady has been 7-3 while Manning went 5-3. [2010 playoff addendum.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/blog/?p=8627



Playoff QB W-L & Support (Source Data)

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/blog/?page_id=8658

Dylan
02-09-2011, 12:07 AM
Is Ben Roethlisberger One Of The NFL’s Best Quarterbacks?

January 25th, 2011
“The NFL has always been defined by its great quarterbacks,” says Thomas Boswell in The Washington Post. In today’s game, a scrambling, agile quarterback may be more valuable than at any other point in the league’s history. And the most successful in this class of quarterback in recent years, one can argue, has been Roethlisberger – he’s already won two Super Bowls in his relatively short career.

If you don’t believe that Roethlisberger is one of the game’s best, says Sam Mellinger in The Kansas City Star, it’s probably because of Big Ben’s character issues, and “we still tend to confuse character and performance. Too often we interpret victory as virtue.”

But it’s time to “separate the man from the athlete.” Where does Roethlisberger rank among the NFL’s elite?

He’s right near the top: “Ben Roethlisberger has a long way to go to be as respected a quarterback as Tom Brady or Peyton Manning, contemporaries whose names come up in most ‘best of all time’ discussions,” says Jerome Solomon in the Houston Chronicle. But he sure is close. He’s a different type of quarterback than those guys.

“The Steelers coach to Roethlisberger’s scrambling ability” as he “extends plays better than any quarterback in the NFL.” As we get closer to the big game, “redemption will be a word used a thousand times” as reporters allude to Roethlisberger’s sordid past. “But as a player, a quarterback, Roethlisberger’s game needs no such thing.”

He sure doesn’t show it: “Maybe someday Tom Brady will learn to extend plays. For now, Patriots fans will just have to be content to watch him make plays,” says Gerry Callahan in the Boston Herald. Roethlisberger didn’t do that on Sunday against the Jets. And so “the two-week deification of Roethlisberger begins.”

As “the mythology” spreads, Big Ben is finding his way “into the conversation for best quarterback in the game,” which “is, of course, ridiculous.”

No quarterback can do everything: You can’t judge a quarterback exclusively by win-loss record, says Bob Smizik in the Pittsburgh Post-Review. He can be “heavily involved in his team’s success” or be the cause of their failure.

“Often, Roethlisberger is the difference between winning and losing for the Steelers,” but that doesn’t mean he’s the singular factor determining the team’s fate. “The Steelers simply had the better team Sunday night. They have a better quarterback, too, but not on this particular night.” So lay off of Big Ben for his bad performance and praise the rest of the team for a big win.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/01/24/AR2011012406193.html

http://www.kansascity.com/2011/01/23/2604840/great-play-doesnt-mean-great-character.html

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/solomon/7396106.html
http://bostonherald.com/sports/columnists/view.bg?articleid=1311744&position=0

http://communityvoices.sites.post-gazette.com/index.php/sports/bob-smiziks-blog/27186-evaluating-roethlisberger

Rausch
02-09-2011, 12:08 AM
Tom Brady, by a long shot.

Manning, Brees, Rivers and Rodgers are certainly in the Top Five but Brady has done it over and over and over and over again, despite coaching changes, despite lesser personnel, despite his age and despite the competition.

I think that Rodgers has a very fine future ahead of him and the way the Pack are set up, it's conceivable that they'll win another Super Bowl in the next five years and maybe even two, if they're lucky.

But right now as of today, 2/8/2011, it's Tom Brady.

This.

Reason #298 for Brady is he's very Montana-like. He had 2 seasons of retarded-good numbers but outside of that he's just been the guy with the ball at the end of the game.

For the most part he's the guy who's able to find some way to get that 3 or 6 when it's needed.

ALWAYS.

And on top of that there's the personality factor. I don't mean popularity, I mean personality.

People feared Marino and fear Manning.

People WANTED to win for Montana, Brady, and Rodgers.

Short Leash Hootie
02-09-2011, 12:18 AM
Brady hasn't won a thing post spygate...

I said YEARS ago that "clutch" thing was a myth...

and it's true.

Brady was never clutch, and still isn't clutch, and still isn't as good as Manning.

Manning, Brady, Rodgers, Rivers, Brees, Big Ben...whatever. Doesn't matter...any year 1 of those guys wins they'll be considered the best by many on this board.

1. Manning
2. Brady
3. Rodgers
4. Brees

I'd say there is a bit of a drop off after those 4.

Dylan
02-09-2011, 12:21 AM
Measuring Stick for an Elite Quarterback

We have heard many arguments about whether or not Ben Roethlisberger is an elite quarterback, and those arguments will rise to a crescendo during the next ten days. All of the arguments that I have seen or heard are opinions with perhaps a smattering of selected facts that are frequently in error. I could not find an objective measuring stick for the elusive elite quarterback designation, so I decided to create one.

The modern football age began around 1979 with the implementation of the Blount Rule and the introduction of Bill Walsh’s west coast offense. The NFL morphed into a passing league, and passing statistics soared. The consensus best quarterback of this era is Joe Montana, the first and quintessential west coast quarterback. As such, I decided to use Montana (JM) as the measuring stick and compare his first seven years to Ben Roethlisberger’s (BR).

Here are a few background notes about their first seven years. Joe Montana came into the NFL as a third-round draft pick in 1979. He was a backup to Steve DeBerg until the middle of the 1980 season. The 1982 season was a short season due to the players’ strike. Roethisberger entered the NFL twenty-five years later in 2004. He became a starter in his third NFL game. His worst season was 2006 that followed a horrible motorcycle accident that he was lucky to survive and included an in-season emergency appendectomy. No two careers are exactly alike, but seven years is a large body of work that is sufficient for a comparison. The following comparison is in two sections, regular season and postseason. (Source: Pro-Football Reference)

Regular Season
Winning Percentage:
BR 69 wins, 29 losses, .704 winning percentage
JM 51 wins, 28 losses, .646 winning percentage

Percentage Completion:
BR 2,800 attempts, 1,766 completions, 63.1%
JM 2,571 attempts, 1,627 completions, 63.3%

Passing Yards:
BR 22,502 yards, 230 yds/game, 8.0 yds/attempt
JM 19,262 yards, 244 yds/game, 7.5 yds/attempt

Touchdowns:
BR 144 TD’s, 5.1% of attempts
JM 133 TD’s, 5.2% of attempts

Interceptions:
BR 86 Int’s, 3.1% of attempts
JM 67 Int’s, 2.6% of attempts

Comebacks and Game Winning Drives (GWD):
BR 17 4th qtr comebacks, 22 gwd’s
JM 11 4th qtr comebacks, 10 gwd’s

Passer Rating:
BR 92.5
JM 92.4

These statistics are virtually the same. Roethlisberger won more often than Montana, and greatly exceeded his number of fourth quarter comebacks and game winning drives. Roethlisberger’s 8.0 passing yards per attempt is one of the all-time best, and exceeds Montana’s 7.5 yards per attempt. The one area where Montana bettered Roethlisberger is interceptions. Montana’s interception rate of 2.6% is better than Roethlisberger’s 3.1% (largely caused by his 23 interceptions in 2006, his worst season in the NFL). The completion percentage, touchdown percentage and passer rating for Roethlisberger and Montana are equal.


Postseason
The postseason is where reputations are made, as this is where the winners are crowned, and Roethlisberger and Montana have shined in the postseason.

Super Bowls:
BR 2 wins, 0 losses (still counting)
JM 2 wins, 0 losses

All Postseason Games:
BR 10 wins, 2 losses, .833 winning percentage
JM 7 wins, 2 losses, .778 winning percentage

Percentage Completion:
BR 329 attempts, 201 completions, 61.1%
JM 322 attempts, 194 completions, 60.2%

Passing Yards:
BR 2,598 yards, 200 yds/game, 7.9 yds/attempt
JM 2,464 yards, 274 yds/game, 7.7 yds/attempt

Touchdowns:
BR 17 TD’s, 5.2% of attempts
JM 17 TD’s, 5.3% of attempts

Interceptions:
BR 14 Int’s, 4.3% of attempts
JM 12 Int’s, 3.7% of attempts

Comebacks and Game Winning Drives (GWD):
BR 2 4th qtr comebacks, 3 gwd’s
JM 2 4th qtr comebacks, 2 gwd’s

Passer Rating:
BR 85.4
JM 86.2

That’s it – the statistical comparison. Ben Roethlisberger has outplayed (or is at least equal to) Joe Montana during the first seven years of their career. Their passing statistics are comparable, but Roethlisberger has won more.

So the question arises, why is Joe Montana considered by many to be the best quarterback of all time while Ben Roethlisberger struggles for recognition. I think it comes down to timing and image. When Joe Montana became the 49er’s starting quarterback in 1980, there was a dearth of quarterbacks in the NFL. The NFL’s first-team All-Pro Quarterback for 1980 was Cleveland’s Brian Sipe. Roger Staubach retired after the 1979 season, and Terry Bradshaw’s career was in a downslide with the end of the Steel Curtain era. The best quarterback of that time was Dan Fouts leading Air Coryell, but Fouts played in the AFC while Montana played in the NFC. The best NFC quarterbacks were Ron Jaworski and Steve Barkowski.

Roethlisberger entered the NFL in 2004 and has been competing against a number of future hall of famers – Peyton Manning, Tom Brady and Brett Farve. In 2004, Carson Palmer was considered to be a part of this mix also. Since he moved to New Orleans, Drew Brees has been the best quarterback in the NFC. During the seven year career of Ben Roethlisberger, supporters of his competition has been aggressively pushing their favorite and chafe at the thought of Roethlisberger outshining them. By comparison, Montana did not have this competition for the limelight. The great quarterback class of 1983 (Marino, Elway and Kelly) played in the AFC and did not win a Super Bowl until Elway won in 1997, long after Montana’s career had ended.

Joe Montana’s image is totally different from that of Ben Roethlisberger. In the 1980’s, Joe Montana was the golden-haired Notre Damer leading the new, trendy, west coast offense in San Francisco, California. The City of Pittsburgh’s image is that of the gritty, blue-collar, steel town reminiscent of 1960. The Steelers mirror that image as a Cowher era Neanderthal group that pounds you with the running game and mauls you with defense. It’s meaningless that this image conflicts with reality – the media prefers the storyline. Image matters, and by the end of his seventh season, Joe Montana had been to four pro-bowls and was Super Bowl MVP twice. By contrast, Ben Roethlisberger’s recognition consists of the Rookie of Year Award and one trip to the Pro Bowl.

Likeability also appears to be an issue. The backhanded compliments that Roethlisberger is receiving about how he has changed and how much nicer he is towards the media would indicate that the Roethlisberger of prior seasons was not particularly amenable with reporters. The negative, distorted reporting of his off field troubles seems to bear this out. Perhaps, this will change with the new, improved Ben Roethlisberger.

Should Roethlisberger win his third Super Bowl ring nine days from now, there will be begrudging acceptance of his elite status (it would be hard to ignore). Time may also change his status. Manning, Brady and Brees are at the age where the inevitable decline in play begins. They’re not done by any means; but in all likelihood, their best years are behind them. In 1985, Joe Montana’s career was at its halfway point, as he went on to win two more championships and two MVP awards. The rest of Roethlisberger’s career is still an unwritten book.

Objectively, the statistics say that Ben Roethlisberger is as good as, if not better, than Joe Montana for the first seven years of his career. However, he does not get the same respect because of (1) the effective legacy defenders of Manning and Brady, (2) the inaccurate image of Pittsburgh and Steelers football and (3) perhaps a little immaturity in his dealings with others. Winning Super Bowl XLV and his new persona should change all of this. Hey, if you play better than Joe Montana, you have to be elite!

Source: Emailed to me

:D

Rausch
02-09-2011, 12:23 AM
Brady hasn't won a thing post spygate...

I said YEARS ago that "clutch" thing was a myth...

and it's true.

You're an idiot...

DBOSHO
02-09-2011, 03:11 AM
Hootie is a myth. Theres no way that much stupidity could actually exist.

Pioli Zombie
02-09-2011, 04:05 AM
Brady hasn't won a thing post spygate...

I said YEARS ago that "clutch" thing was a myth...

and it's true.

Brady was never clutch, and still isn't clutch, and still isn't as good as Manning.

Manning, Brady, Rodgers, Rivers, Brees, Big Ben...whatever. Doesn't matter...any year 1 of those guys wins they'll be considered the best by many on this board.

1. Manning
2. Brady
3. Rodgers
4. Brees

I'd say there is a bit of a drop off after those 4.
Brady was never clutch? Tell that to the St.Louis Rams,Carolina Panthers,Philadelphia Eagles,Pittsburgh Steelers,San Diego Chargers,and Indianapolis Colts. What is your definition of clutch, douchebag?

BigMeatballDave
02-09-2011, 04:09 AM
Brady hasn't won a thing post spygate...

I said YEARS ago that "clutch" thing was a myth...

and it's true.

Brady was never clutch, and still isn't clutch, and still isn't as good as Manning.

Brady is exponentially better in the post-season.

Sweet Daddy Hate
02-09-2011, 04:57 AM
I told several friends before the Super Bowl that there isn't a QB in the NFL that I would rather have over Rodgers. I stand by that.

If I was starting a team right now, and had the pool of players in the NFL available, I choose Rodgers #1 overall without a doubt.

And yet you call me a douche for hating the fucking retard we got saddled with.

Good show!

-King-
02-09-2011, 06:18 AM
And yet you call me a douche for hating the fucking retard we got saddled with.

Good show!

Wtf? He didn't even address Cassel in his post.
Posted via Mobile Device

Sweet Daddy Hate
02-09-2011, 06:23 AM
Wtf? He didn't even address Cassel in his post.
Posted via Mobile Device

Are you a never-sleeping monitor of this fucking house? FFS, King; let the man answer for himself.

If it's not too much of an inconvenience for you...

jeez..:spock:

-King-
02-09-2011, 06:24 AM
Are you a never-sleeping monitor of this fucking house? FFS, King; let the man answer for himself.

If it's not too much of an inconvenience for you...

jeez..:spock:

Answer what? Did I miss a question?
Posted via Mobile Device

Sweet Daddy Hate
02-09-2011, 06:25 AM
Answer what? Did I miss a question?
Posted via Mobile Device

Mother of fuck..

TheGuardian
02-09-2011, 06:42 AM
There's one little problem that you seem to have missed.

When you take Aaron Rodger's rushing yards out of the equation, the Pack's ground game averaged less than 80 yards per game with their RBs.

The Saints, with Brees losing a total of 3 yards for the season on the ground, averaged 94 yards per game.

Doesn't even matter. You said that Brees couldn't overcome his lack of running game the way Rodgers did. Well I've shown that to be complete bullshit.

So did you just state that because you too are so hard on Rodgers cock or just felt like making something up?

Because Brees has graded out higher than Rodgers in play in two of the past three seasons and won a SB as well. His downfield passing accuracy is better than anyone in the league. So by all means I have reason that I rate Brees higher.

Sweet Daddy Hate
02-09-2011, 06:47 AM
Because Brees has graded out

Grading out is for slack-jawed...you know the rest.

TheGuardian
02-09-2011, 07:12 AM
Grading out is for slack-jawed...you know the rest.

You mean what you are for Sanchez?

Go get a Jets jersey you fucking faggot.

NaptownChief
02-09-2011, 07:51 AM
Brady is exponentially better in the post-season.


As evidenced by Manning's post season QB rating of 88.4 and Brady's 85.5 rating.

Somehow "exponentially better" in reality isn't even as good based on post season rating. Amazing how perception and reality can get so out of whack.

TheGuardian
02-09-2011, 07:54 AM
As evidenced by Manning's post season QB rating of 88.4 and Brady's 85.5 rating.

Somehow "exponentially better" in reality isn't even as good based on post season rating. Amazing how perception and reality can get so out of whack.

Like how people call Sanchez clutch even when he loses?

NaptownChief
02-09-2011, 08:00 AM
Like how people call Sanchez clutch even when he loses?


I've noticed that most "clutch" Qb's tend to have excellent defenses giving them short fields and quick to get the ball back in their hands.

All I know is the Colts would have been 2-14, 3-13 type of team without Manning. Awful OLine, awful running game, awful stopping the run, awful special teams coverage. Patriots lost Brady and their record improved with Cassel getting his first game action since high school. If Manning had the benefit of Bill Bellichick coaching or the Jets, GB or Pittsburgh type of defense he would have 4 or 5 SB rings on his hands.

jd1020
02-09-2011, 08:03 AM
I've noticed that most "clutch" Qb's tend to have excellent defenses giving them short fields and quick to get the ball back in their hands.

All I know is the Colts would have been 2-14, 3-13 type of team without Manning. Awful OLine, awful running game, awful stopping the run, awful special teams coverage. Patriots lost Brady and their record improved with Cassel getting his first game action since high school. If Manning had the benefit of Bill Bellichick coaching or the Jets, GB or Pittsburgh type of defense he would have 4 or 5 SB rings on his hands.

11-5 > 16-0?

Is it a coincidence that the Patriots played the NFCW when Cassel looked good as QB?

NaptownChief
02-09-2011, 08:09 AM
11-5 > 16-0?

Is it a coincidence that the Patriots played the NFCW when Cassel looked good as QB?



The Colts could play the Browns, Bengals, Lions and Panthers for all 16 games and they would have been 4-12 without Manning. There is no NFL schedule you could dream up that would have the Colts winning more than 4 games without him let alone actually improve their win total like the Pats did without Brady.

Brady is very, very good but he benefits greatly from being on a good all around team with the smartest coach in the business. Manning is saddled with possibly the dumbest head coach in the league with Caldwell.

jd1020
02-09-2011, 08:11 AM
You are overrating the talent surrounding Brady.

I agree that the Colts are terrible without Manning, but so are the Patriots without Brady.

I'll take the Colts D and receivers over the Patriots.

DBOSHO
02-09-2011, 09:21 AM
The Colts could play the Browns, Bengals, Lions and Panthers for all 16 games and they would have been 4-12 without Manning. There is no NFL schedule you could dream up that would have the Colts winning more than 4 games without him let alone actually improve their win total like the Pats did without Brady.

Brady is very, very good but he benefits greatly from being on a good all around team with the smartest coach in the business. Manning is saddled with possibly the dumbest head coach in the league with Caldwell.

Yes, because the colts have played a whole bunch of games the past decade without manning to prove this.

-King-
02-09-2011, 09:40 AM
Yes, because the colts have played a whole bunch of games the past decade without manning to prove this.

Manning IS the Colts. He calls the offense and I'm pretty sure he'd call the defense better than the DC they have now. There isn't a QB in the league who carries a team more than him IMO. It's all sink or swim with him.

DBOSHO
02-09-2011, 09:45 AM
Manning IS the Colts. He calls the offense and I'm pretty sure he'd call the defense better than the DC they have now. There isn't a QB in the league who carries a team more than him IMO. It's all sink or swim with him.

Ill agree with the first part of your statement, but how many times in the last 10 seasons have they had a qb not named manning
Play? 1?

The "colts would drown without manning" statement is as big a myth as any.

-King-
02-09-2011, 09:46 AM
Ill agree with the first part of your statement, but how many times in the last 10 seasons have they had a qb not named manning
Play? 1?

The "colts would drown without manning" statement is as big a myth as any.

How many games do you think they would have won without Manning last year?

DBOSHO
02-09-2011, 09:53 AM
How many games do you think they would have won without Manning last year?

Without a schedule in front of me, if they started lets say...cassel, probably 4-6 games. My point is, you cant prove something without trying it. The colts havent been without manning for like 13 years, so how can people definitely say they would be terrible?

vailpass
02-09-2011, 10:14 AM
I think the margin of error separating these guys is very small. I don't think you could go wrong starting an NFL team with any of them.

1.) Brady: has done more, with less, and had farther to go to be great.
2.) Manning: the golden boy with the stats, doesn't produce in the clutch as much.
3.) Brees: has all the talents, has won one SB. Solid.
4.) Rodgers: up and coming, need to see it for a longer duration.
5.) Rivers: hurt by his lack of postseason success.
6.) Rapistburger: can scramble and make plays, but as a pure QB is still sixth in this bunch.

I didn't include Mark Castle. He's not worthy of putting in this discussion, unless and until he performs well for more than one season. He now has two: 2008 (NE) and 2010 (KC). If he shines in 2011, he might move up into the top group with these guys.

:D:homer:

milkman
02-09-2011, 05:51 PM
Manning IS the Colts. He calls the offense and I'm pretty sure he'd call the defense better than the DC they have now. There isn't a QB in the league who carries a team more than him IMO. It's all sink or swim with him.

Dsoho is right.

The claim that the Colts would be a 4 win team without Manning is purely speculative, with no basis in fact.

No one thought that the Patriots could win with Cassel, and most Patriot fans wanted him cut before the '08 season, he was so bad during the preseason.

I would suggest that the Colts would be a better team if Manning had a coach with some nuts to rein him in and give that team more balance offensively when they had the talent to run the ball.

But that's merely only speculation on my part, as well.