Jovan Belcher, a gem found in the rough ?

[royr17]

http://www.rotoworld.com/teams/nfl/kc/?r=1

ESPN.com's Bill Williamson and Scouts Inc.'s Matt Williamson believe the Chiefs have found a "gem" in ILB Jovan Belcher.

Belcher was primarily a special teamer as an undrafted rookie in 2009. He graduated to full-time starter in 2010, racking up 84 tackles. "He's a heavier guy who is a good banger in the 3-4 defense," Matt Williamson said. "He seems like a hard-nosed guy who has made the best of opportunity." Expect Belcher to remain in the same role next season.

[keg in kc]

I'm one of the few people who isn't pressing to have him replaced in 2011. I'd really like to see what he turns into, and the only way for that to happen is if he's on the field.

[Detoxing]

I'm one of the few people who isn't pressing to have him replaced in 2011. I'd really like to see what he turns into, and the only way for that to happen is if he's on the field.

Ima join you. I dont think ILB is a priority. Get those boys a NT and then see what they can do.

[Bump]

I'd say he had a pretty solid season

[royr17]

I'll say that I was impressed with him this year

[bowener]

Ima join you. I dont think ILB is a priority. Get those boys a NT and then see what they can do.

Bold=agree.

[notorious]

He's decent at bringing a load in the middle.


With that said, a good open field tackler he is not.

[royr17]

Ima join you. I dont think ILB is a priority. Get those boys a NT and then see what they can do.

Paul Soliali sounds pretty good to me right now, can you say the next Dan Saleaumua. Oh we could only hope.

[DoucheMcCloud]

Ima join you. I dont think ILB is a priority. Get those boys a NT and then see what they can do.

If the Chiefs can find a replacement for Belcher in the draft or free agency, he'll be replaced.

He's not the "Thumper" that Crennel envisions for his defense.

[Tylerthigpen!1!]

If the Chiefs can find a replacement for Belcher in the draft or free agency, he'll be replaced.

He's not the "Thumper" that Crennel envisions for his defense.

What are you basing this on?

[Chiefspants]

That dumbass facemask penalty at the end of the raiders game still stands out in my memory, that was the turning point of that entire game.

[Rain Man]

They say he's heavy, but wasn't his listed weight last year 228 pounds? I remember being surprised when someone around here mentioned it, because I assumed he was larger.

[DoucheMcCloud]

They say he's heavy, but wasn't his listed weight last year 228 pounds? I remember being surprised when someone around here mentioned it, because I assumed he was larger.

He's very light for the "Thumper" role. They really need someone closer to 250 and that role will be easier to fill than finding the next Ngata.

[KC Tattoo]

He should only get better, so I am happy to have him.

[spanky 52]

He's okay but I hope the Chief's at least find someone to replace Williams and Mays.

[58kcfan89]

He's okay but I hope the Chief's at least find someone to replace Williams and Mays.

Unless I'm missing something, those 2 didn't play except the occasional random play & on special teams....

[TheGuardian]

He's very light for the "Thumper" role. They really need someone closer to 250 and that role will be easier to fill than finding the next Ngata.

Belcher is 250. I know this from the horses mouth.

The rest of your shit is baseless.

[DoucheMcCloud]

Unless I'm missing something, those 2 didn't play except the occasional random play & on special teams....

Mays played in goal line situations because he's better against the run than Belcher.

If Belcher could put on 25 pounds of muscle mass, learn the game (i.e. become more instinctive) and rotate his hips more quickly, he could be a long term solution. But until he can do that, I view him as a stop gap.

[Bill Lundberg]

Better than a horses ass I supposed.

[KCrockaholic]

I actually love having Belcher on the team. He was solid his rookie year. Last year he got even better. His next season he should only improve even more.

[TheGuardian]

I actually love having Belcher on the team. He was solid his rookie year. Last year he got even better. His next season he should only improve even more.

Exactly. This was just his second year in the league, first year as a starter and he was very solid. He should only get better.

[BossChief]

These linebackers are gonna take another step if we add a true nose guard.

All of them.

[chiefzilla1501]

These linebackers are gonna take another step if we add a true nose guard.

All of them.

Sort of. All of them but at LOLB. I like Stude as depth, but I think he's proven that he's not close to starter material.

[Rain Man]

Belcher is 250. I know this from the horses mouth.

The rest of your shit is baseless.


The official roster has shown him at 228, and still does. I agree, though, that he looks bigger than that. In football terms, he has a solid base.

[BossChief]

Sort of. All of them but at LOLB. I like Stude as depth, but I think he's proven that he's not close to starter material.

I disagree, but time will tell.

Hopefully Sheffield returns and makes a contribution as well.

[ChiefsCountry]

This team is better if Belcher is your top backup instead of starter.

[ChiefsCountry]

Belcher is 250. I know this from the horses mouth.

The rest of your shit is baseless.

228 is what the Chiefs have him listed as.

[TheGuardian]

228 is what the Chiefs have him listed as.

Don't care. Jovan told me himself he walked into camp at 252. Roster weight's and shit don't change for years at a times sometimes.

[TheGuardian]

This team is better if Belcher is your top backup instead of starter.

After his second season?

Really. You're that smart?

[ChiefsCountry]

After his second season?

Really. You're that smart?

Heaven forbid I want to upgrade one of our weak links on our defense.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

I don't know what the hell Williamson is smoking. You'd think that a guy whose job was to cover the AFC West would know that Belcher is undersized as a Ted linebacker.

[chiefzilla1501]

Heaven forbid I want to upgrade one of our weak links on our defense.

I don't think they played that bad, considering how our Nose Tackle, who's supposed to occupy 2-3 blockers, was barely occupying one.

You get a Nose Guard to take hats off of Belcher and DJ, and they both have potential to be solid 3-4 ILBs. Yeah, we could upgrade and you don't want to pass up on a surefire stud, but if you walked into next season with a new Nose Tackle and an OLB who can actually contain the edge and put some pressure on the QB, our ILBs will be just fine.

[chiefzilla1501]

228 is what the Chiefs have him listed as.

That's something I was curious about too. While I try not to believe the "he said, she said" crap, the only reason I might believe him is he sure as hell doesn't play like 228.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

He's listed at 228 on the Chiefs site, the NFL site, and he was listed at 230 at Maine.

[ChiefsCountry]

I don't think they played that bad, considering how our Nose Tackle, who's supposed to occupy 2-3 blockers, was barely occupying one.

You get a Nose Guard to take hats off of Belcher and DJ, and they both have potential to be solid 3-4 ILBs. Yeah, we could upgrade and you don't want to pass up on a surefire stud, but if you walked into next season with a new Nose Tackle and an OLB who can actually contain the edge and put some pressure on the QB, our ILBs will be just fine.

I would be fine going into next season with Belcher if we got a new NT and OLB, but he is 3rd on the list as players that need an upgrade on defense.

[TheGuardian]

I don't know what the hell Williamson is smoking. You'd think that a guy whose job was to cover the AFC West would know that Belcher is undersized as a Ted linebacker.

As I noted, Jovan told me himself he showed up at camp at 252. He did fine at the point and taking on fullbacks. He'll only be in his third year next season.

Heaven forbid I want to upgrade one of our weak links on our defense.

Who made the scientific observation that he was a weak link? You??? WTF do you know about linebacker play?

Nothing.

[TheGuardian]

He's listed at 228 on the Chiefs site, the NFL site, and he was listed at 230 at Maine.

:facepalm:

REading is fucking fundamental.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

:facepalm:

REading is fucking fundamental.

Yeah, it is. It's also pretty damned obvious I think you're full of shit, so fuck off.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Who made the scientific observation that he was a weak link? You??? WTF do you know about linebacker play?

Nothing.

Obviously more than you if you think he wasn't.

[TheGuardian]

Yeah, it is. It's also pretty damned obvious I think you're full of shit, so **** off.

You can think whatever the fuck you want. But I talk to Jovan pretty frequently. I don't give two shits if you believe that or not. He went into camp last year at 242 and by the time the season was over was back at 230. I don't know what his ending weight for this season was, but he went into camp at 252. When he gets back from New York I'll ask him about it.

So go eat a bag of dicks you fake football knowledge bitch.

[the Talking Can]

You can think whatever the **** you want. But I talk to Jovan pretty frequently. I don't give two shits if you believe that or not. He went into camp last year at 242 and by the time the season was over was back at 230. I don't know what his ending weight for this season was, but he went into camp at 252. When he gets back from New York I'll ask him about it.

So go eat a bag of dicks you fake football knowledge bitch.

so he obviously wasn't playing at 250, and 230 is his natural weight


thanks fake football guy.....for making every thread you post in smell like fart

[chiefzilla1501]

I would be fine going into next season with Belcher if we got a new NT and OLB, but he is 3rd on the list as players that need an upgrade on defense.

Yeah, that's fair to say, but it becomes a really distant 3rd on the defensive side. It still falls behind NT, OLB, WR, C, RT, and QB on the priority list, IMO. But you're right, while I'm comfortable with Belcher starting, there's nothing wrong with bringing in a new guy and starting him if he outperforms Belcher. Or bringing in a guy that's good, but can't beat out Belcher for a starting job even. We need depth at ILB for sure.

[TheGuardian]

so he obviously wasn't playing at 250, and 230 is his natural weight


thanks fake football guy.....for making every thread you post in smell like fart

Pretty much every guy loses weight throughout the season you fucking idiot. The fact that you never played a god damn down is the reason you don't know this.

So if a guy walks into camp at 250 he might have played most of the season at 235-240. No one plays the season at the same weight throughout.

Fucking idiot, you need bitch slapped.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

This is the same reason why no one considers Casey Wiegmann 290 pounds, dumb shit.

[TheGuardian]

This is the same reason why no one considers Casey Wiegmann 290 pounds, dumb shit.

I never said he was, so who the fuck are you calling dumb hit, dumbshit?

You're the fucktard that said we need a guy that is 25 pounds bigger than Jovan. So we need a 275 pound inside backer?

Jovan played fine for a second year guy getting his first year to start. I don't need to hear you dumb bitches talk about linebacker play when you don't know shit about it.

[chiefzilla1501]

so he obviously wasn't playing at 250, and 230 is his natural weight


thanks fake football guy.....for making every thread you post in smell like fart

The issue is that people are using his weight to suggest that he's undersized.

The reason I actually believe Guardian on this is that there's no way he takes on Fullbacks the way he did if he's only 228. There's no reason to believe that his listed weight is his actual playing weight. He's strong at the point of attack. He's got areas of his game to work on, but size/strength haven't appeared to be one of them.

[ChiefsCountry]

So TheGuardian is to Belcher like KCJohnny is to Gunther.

[the Talking Can]

The issue is that people are using his weight to suggest that he's undersized.

The reason I actually believe Guardian on this is that there's no way he takes on Fullbacks the way he did if he's only 228. There's no reason to believe that his listed weight is his actual playing weight. He's strong at the point of attack. He's got areas of his game to work on, but size/strength haven't appeared to be one of them.

i haven't said anything about his weight, other than to point out that fake football guy was confused as all hell....

your camp weight means jack shit if you lose 30lbs during the season....

[KCrockaholic]

The issue is that people are using his weight to suggest that he's undersized.

The reason I actually believe Guardian on this is that there's no way he takes on Fullbacks the way he did if he's only 228. There's no reason to believe that his listed weight is his actual playing weight. He's strong at the point of attack. He's got areas of his game to work on, but size/strength haven't appeared to be one of them.

Yay. We have an intelligent response. I was thinking the same thing actually. But it's kinda funny watching them argue about Belcher's weight.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Weight doesn't mean jack shit when you're taking on fullbacks if you get leverage.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3b/Jovan_Belcher.JPG

[KCrockaholic]

Weight doesn't mean jack shit when you're taking on fullbacks if you get leverage.

I think we all agree. You have been fighting Dane's comments this whole time.

[chiefzilla1501]

i haven't said anything about his weight, other than to point out that fake football guy was confused as all hell....

your camp weight means jack shit if you lose 30lbs during the season....

It's not uncommon for NFL players to lose a lot of weight. Nobody actually weighs an NFL player midseason, that I know of. Camp weight is important because that's when they do the majority of their heavy lifting and bulking up. As the season goes on, they do a lot less of it.

And he's not talking about a 30 lb. weight change. He's talking about a 12 lb. weight loss. Which seems reasonable to me.

He's saying that losing 10 lbs isn't a big deal if everyone else is losing 10 lbs. too. And I'd have to agree because, again, people here are suggesting that his true playing weight is 20 lbs. lighter than it needs to be. If that were the case, he'd be getting mauled at the point of attack. He's not. He's clearly big enough to play ILB meaning that his weight is probably around the range Guardian is suggesting.

[Marcellus the True]

i haven't said anything about his weight, other than to point out that fake football guy was confused as all hell....

your camp weight means jack shit if you lose 30lbs during the season....

Just jumping in here haven't read it all but why the hell would you lose 30lbs during the season? They practice and work out way less during the season than they do in camp. Chances are you would put on weight right?

The only way that would work is if you have to work your ass off to put on weight and I don't see that making a 30lb difference anyway. Maybe 10.

[chiefzilla1501]

Weight doesn't mean jack shit when you're taking on fullbacks if you get leverage.

Yeah, but leverage comes from strength, particularly lower body strength. Guys with strong legs to have that kind of leverage have legs that weigh a lot.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Yeah, but leverage comes from strength, particularly lower body strength. Guys with strong legs to have that kind of leverage have legs that weigh a lot.

That's only partially right. Leverage also comes from being able to get under somebody's pads.

[KCrockaholic]

That's only partially right. Leverage also comes from being able to get under somebody's pads.

Get under their pads and jack them up into the opponents neck and you will win every time.

[Marcellus the True]

That's only partially right. Leverage also comes from being able to get under somebody's pads.

Which also means height plays a roll. Why Rudy sucks as a center.

[DeezNutz]

Pretty much every guy loses weight throughout the season you ****ing idiot. The fact that you never played a god damn down is the reason you don't know this.

So if a guy walks into camp at 250 he might have played most of the season at 235-240. No one plays the season at the same weight throughout.

****ing idiot, you need bitch slapped.

Our new offensive head golf coach coordinator is fucked.

[KCrockaholic]

Our new offensive head golf coach coordinator is ****ed.

I knew He and Larry Johnson were related. Explains a lot of things.

[the Talking Can]

Just jumping in here haven't read it all but why the hell would you lose 30lbs during the season? They practice and work out way less during the season than they do in camp. Chances are you would put on weight right?

The only way that would work is if you have to work your ass off to put on weight and I don't see that making a 30lb difference anyway. Maybe 10.

jesus fuck people read the thread


that's what fake football guy said...

[the Talking Can]

for some reason the quote function isn't working on your post

"Read the thread? I just went back and read the posts and nowhere does it say he lost 30lbs like you suggested."


anyways, i flipped the 2 years he mentioned...he started 242 one year, finshed at 230 (his real weight)...started at 252 last year (the number i was looking at)


the point stands....his listed weight everywhere is around 230...he's admitted finishing seasons at 230....bulking up to come into camp at 240-250 doesn't mean anything...you're losing it immediately and playing the season closer to your ACTUAL weight...230...

jesus, i like the kid...but he isn't playing at 250...by his own damn admission...

[KCrockaholic]

This is a really stupid discussion at this point. It doesn't matter how much he weighs. He's a helluva good young player.

[Marcellus the True]

for some reason the quote function isn't working on your post

"Read the thread? I just went back and read the posts and nowhere does it say he lost 30lbs like you suggested."


anyways, i flipped the 2 years he mentioned...he started 242 one year, finshed at 230 (his real weight)...started at 252 last year (the number i was looking at)


the point stands....his listed weight everywhere is around 230...he's admitted finishing seasons at 230....bulking up to come into camp at 240-250 doesn't mean anything...you're losing it immediately and playing the season closer to your ACTUAL weight...230...

jesus, i like the kid...but he isn't playing at 250...by his own damn admission...

I went back and found what you were referring too.

I think he is alright too not bashing him.

Guardian says he lost 12lbs his first year, not unheard of. Went in heavier this year so his point is he should have been around 240 end of the season.

You can't lose 30lbs during the season unless you were roiding or something in the off season or caught a disease.

Regardless I think going into year 3 he looks ok. We seem to give up on players too soon. Especially LB's.

He doesn't have to be a star just a good player.

[Marcellus the True]

This is a really stupid discussion at this point. It doesn't matter how much he weighs. He's a helluva good young player.

Yes.

[chiefzilla1501]

for some reason the quote function isn't working on your post

"Read the thread? I just went back and read the posts and nowhere does it say he lost 30lbs like you suggested."


anyways, i flipped the 2 years he mentioned...he started 242 one year, finshed at 230 (his real weight)...started at 252 last year (the number i was looking at)


the point stands....his listed weight everywhere is around 230...he's admitted finishing seasons at 230....bulking up to come into camp at 240-250 doesn't mean anything...you're losing it immediately and playing the season closer to your ACTUAL weight...230...

jesus, i like the kid...but he isn't playing at 250...by his own damn admission...

Bulking up does mean something if he came into 2010 training camp 10 lbs. heavier in bulk than the weight he put on in 2009. As long as it was bulk, and not a ton of fat.

[DoucheMcCloud]

Belcher is 250. I know this from the horses mouth.

The rest of your shit is baseless.

LMAO

First off, everyone has him listed at 228. There's NO FUCKING WAY you're going to convince me that guy played at 250 this past season. You can tell just by looking at the pictures.

Secondly, Crennel prefers a 250 pound, stout "Thumper" like Teddy Bruschi (who was 6'1 and played at 248-252), a guy that can take on blockers and running backs while shedding blocks from guards. Not a 6'2, 228 pound guy who isn't particularly good at either.

You need to lay off the pipe if you think the Chiefs would pass on an opportunity to upgrade that position.

[Pitt Gorilla]

He's listed at 228 on the Chiefs site, the NFL site, and he was listed at 230 at Maine.Yeah, and Roethlisberger weighs 241.

[royr17]

He's listed at 228 on the Chiefs site, the NFL site, and he was listed at 230 at Maine.

http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=73108&draftyear=2009&genpos=OLB

According to this site he was 243 at Maine.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Look at how thin his frame is in that picture.

Now compare him to Sean Weatherspoon, who is listed at 240:

Does Belcher look 10 lbs bigger than him?

http://media.scout.com/media/image/65/651326.jpg

[chiefzilla1501]

Yeah, and Roethlisberger weighs 241.

Every single site also says Branden Albert is 316 and Tamba Hali is 275. We all know those aren't remotely true. Again, don't know his true weight. But it's totally ridiculous to think he's 228 because the web says he is. Most sites irregularly update weight information.

And come on. We're seriously using a wikipedia picture to prove that he's 228?
1) Look at Derrick Johnson. He's 242 lbs (and only one inch taller). Does anyone actually believe that DJ is 14 lbs. heavier than Belcher?
2) Look at the picture of Belcher at Maine. Look at the picture of Belcher with KC. Umm... yeah, Belcher is most definitely bigger now.

http://cdn1.sbnation.com/entry_photo_images/528261/95566885_large.jpg

http://cdn3.sbnation.com/entry_photo_images/26633/j_belcher_blog_large.jpg

http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/article/media_slots/photos/000/119/819/107210417_crop_340x234.jpg?1294192872

http://photos.upi.com/slideshow/lbox/99745fd7c799a3d985267be505aa535c/NFL-Chiefs-vs-Seahawks.jpg

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Dude, DJ is significantly broader.

[Wilson8]

I love a good story where an undrafted player comes in and makes in the NFL. I hope that a 230 lb or 255 lb, Jovan Belcher is a great linebacker for the Chiefs in the years to come.

Positives – He is only 23 years old and has already had 2 seasons in the NFL with 47 tackles in 2009 and 84 tackles last season.

That being said, the Chiefs should always look to get better in the NFL. If they can draft a good young player that pushes Jovan Belcher to special teams, then bring him on.

[chiefzilla1501]

If you think he's 228, then you're telling me that he's not bigger than his playing days at Maine. He's significantly bigger. Significantly. Especially in the legs. He had chicken legs at Maine

http://www.kcchiefsblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/belcher1.jpg

http://cache.boston.com/resize/bonzai-fba/Globe_Photo/2008/10/23/1224819427_5529/300h.jpg

http://cache2.asset-cache.net/xc/95596057.jpg?v=1&c=IWSAsset&k=2&d=77BFBA49EF878921A343B2C87A49D8F53E0FD9AF2DF9B738AA09DCA88AE62E3F5B85593EE1668B99E30A760B0D811297

http://prod.static.chiefs.clubs.nfl.com/assets/images/imported/KC/photos/clubimages/2010/09-September/IMG_2874-w--nfl_medium_540_360.jpg

[Bewbies]

Ok, what's the 'Fake Football Guy' reference? I see a Fake MMA sig too?? LMAO

[HotRoute]

Casey mathews to replace vrable ....... FTW

[DoucheMcCloud]

Casey mathews to replace ....... FTW

Maybe.

But with guys like AJ Hawk and/or Nick Barnett (among others) that will be available this offseason, I think the Chiefs can do better.

[HotRoute]

Screw that free agency is null and void until the new CBA gets signed..... Which doesn't look very possible . Until then draft draft draft!!!

[milkman]

Maybe.

But with guys like AJ Hawk and/or Nick Barnett (among others) that will be available this offseason, I think the Chiefs can do better.

I'd rather spend money on positions of greater need.

Belcher was a significantly improved player in '10.

There's no reason to believe that he won't continue to improve, and a NT added to the front will help him and DJ.

[beach tribe]

If the Chiefs can find a replacement for Belcher in the draft or free agency, he'll be replaced.

He's not the "Thumper" that Crennel envisions for his defense.

Niether is DJ, but he ain't goin nowhere.

[Wilson8]

The Chiefs have another ILB that I want to see how he does this year. Last year he was slowed by knee problems but he could be a run stopping difference maker in the middle.

Pro Day results -
Jovon Belcher height 6013, weight 243, 40 yd time 4.88, 20 yd 2.89, 10 yd 1.64, bench press 19 times, vertical 9.00, 20 yd shuttle 4.25, 3 cone drill 7.07 03/26/2009

Micah Johnson height 6014, weight 258, 40 yd time 4.84 20 yd 2.80, 10 yd 1.68, bench press 31, vertical 8.11, 20 yd shuttle 4.26, 3 cone drill 7.34 03/10/2010

As others have pointed out, having a big NT in the middle could certainly help our ILB play. I’d like to see the Chiefs sign a free agent and draft one on the second day of the draft.

[TheGuardian]

nevermind

[TheGuardian]

LMAO

First off, everyone has him listed at 228. There's NO ****ING WAY you're going to convince me that guy played at 250 this past season. You can tell just by looking at the pictures.

Secondly, Crennel prefers a 250 pound, stout "Thumper" like Teddy Bruschi (who was 6'1 and played at 248-252), a guy that can take on blockers and running backs while shedding blocks from guards. Not a 6'2, 228 pound guy who isn't particularly good at either.

You need to lay off the pipe if you think the Chiefs would pass on an opportunity to upgrade that position.

OMG

If you think that Bruschi was 250 pounds I got some ocean front property in Arizona to sell you.

[TheGuardian]

The Chiefs have another ILB that I want to see how he does this year. Last year he was slowed by knee problems but he could be a run stopping difference maker in the middle.

Pro Day results -
Jovon Belcher height 6013, weight 243, 40 yd time 4.88, 20 yd 2.89, 10 yd 1.64, bench press 19 times, vertical 9.00, 20 yd shuttle 4.25, 3 cone drill 7.07 03/26/2009

Micah Johnson height 6014, weight 258, 40 yd time 4.84 20 yd 2.80, 10 yd 1.68, bench press 31, vertical 8.11, 20 yd shuttle 4.26, 3 cone drill 7.34 03/10/2010

As others have pointed out, having a big NT in the middle could certainly help our ILB play. I’d like to see the Chiefs sign a free agent and draft one on the second day of the draft.

Oh wow so Jovan actually WEIGHED IN AT 243 FOR HIS PRO DAY!

Wow good job Hamas, Talking Dipshit, and Dane. As ****ing usual, you bitches argue left and right with people then get made to look ****ing stupid.

I said he was 242 last year going into camp. That's what he told me. He said when the season was over he was around 230ish. He said this year he was 252, and he LOOKED 252 if you know what the **** you are looking at (and Hamas obviously doesn't because he's an idiot). So he probably played most of the season around 240ish.

That's plenty big for an inside backer in this defense.

I'm still LMFAO at Dane thinking Bruschi was 250.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/020129mediaday

10:48 -- My buddy Geoff, who had a star-crossed, injury-plagued career at Hamilton College -- he was the Fred Taylor of Division III -- had one request for me: Stand next to (Pats middle linebacker) Tedy Bruschi and find out how big he is. Geoff was convinced he was bigger than Bruschi during that one season at Hamilton when he was lifting for six hours a day and we were all worried about him. He's obsessed with this for some reason.

Well, Geoff was right. ... Bruschi can't weigh more than 220 pounds soaking wet. There's just no way. Could somebody buy him some biceps on eBay please?

[TheGuardian]

I'd rather spend money on positions of greater need.

Belcher was a significantly improved player in '10.

There's no reason to believe that he won't continue to improve, and a NT added to the front will help him and DJ.

Exactly. WE're going to draft a guy to replace a 2nd year player?

[Jethopper]

Wow, this ownage is becoming legendary

[Mr_Tomahawk]

Casey mathews to replace ....... FTW

While I like the kid, he is better suited for a 4-3 scheme. There are better prospects out there who would fit our scheme...

[DJ's left nut]

No way would I give up on Belcher yet. He's come way too far in a short two seasons for me to believe he can't take one more step in his 3rd season (usually a young player's biggest step forward comes in the third year).

More critically, Belcher has the perfect attitude for an ILB. He's aggressive, he's fearless and he genuinely seems to enjoy doing to grunt work underneath.

If he had a legitimate NT that could keep him from having to fight off Guards on every single running play, he'd hold up even better. It wasn't that he never fought off blockers, it was that he was asked to do so virtually every play and eventually it wore him out. If you get a real NT in there to cut the number of times he has to go head up against a guard in half, I'd suggest that he'd be far more effective at shedding blockers when he's asked to do so.

He's athletic, he's quite strong for his size, he plays with passion and he plays with very good leverage (something that some guys never learn). He's a ballplayer. And yeah, would we be better if we had someone better than him to force him to special teams? Sure, but the Ravens would be better if they could clone Ray Nitschke and push Ray Lewis to lead gunner as well. That's a meaningless statement.

We have finite resources in terms of draft picks, cap space and outright cash that Clark may be willing to spend on signing bonuses. Putting those resources into a position that already has a young player that could very well be capable of playing it at a high level is shortsighted and impatient. Give him this season - if he hasn't improved, make a move. It's not like we don't have pressing needs at OLB, NT, WR, RT, C, G, and RB2. We can dedicate our offseason to filling those holes and still likely exhaust our available resources before they're all covered.

Give Belcher another season, ideally behind a real NT, and I think this conversation will be seen as very very silly the following year.

[DoucheMcCloud]

I'd rather spend money on positions of greater need.

Belcher was a significantly improved player in '10.

There's no reason to believe that he won't continue to improve, and a NT added to the front will help him and DJ.

Obviously, there are greater positions of need. But as we're all aware, not every position can be addressed each year and the Chiefs had a weak interior on both sides of the ball this past season.

As I stated earlier, if the Chiefs can upgrade at ILB (or any position), they should absolutely do it. I'm not a hater of Belcher by any means, but I do think the Chiefs would benefit from having a quicker and more instinctive player at that position.

[DoucheMcCloud]

Niether is DJ, but he ain't goin nowhere.

DJ and Belcher aren't even closely related in terms of talent, quickness or instinct.

[DJ's left nut]

DJ and Belcher aren't even closely related in terms of talent, quickness or instinct.

Nor are they close in terms of drive or attitude.

It's production that counts and with Belcher's makeup, if he can get to 80% of what DJ is physically, he could be just as good a player. If DJ would play with 80% the ferocity or intensity that Belcher plays with, he'd be a perennial All-Pro.

DJ is a much more explosive, dynamic, playmaker of a linebacker. However, he doesn't bring that hard-nosed tenacity you'd like to see from an ILB and he doesn't like to go into tight spaces and get nasty. In that sense, Belcher compliments him perfectly.

They're much different players who serve significantly different roles. All things considered, there's no reason Belcher can't be just as good at his job as Johnson is at his.

[DoucheMcCloud]

It's production that counts and with Belcher's makeup, if he can get to 80% of what DJ is physically, he could be just as good a player.

And there's the rub.

[Saccopoo]

Heaven forbid I want to upgrade one of our weak links on our defense.

Jesus...

Belcher has a very solid season as a starter, really filled the running lanes well, and knocked the piss out of people when he got there. That's exactly what you want out of your MLB in a 3-4.

But yet, you want to "upgrade" that as you perceive it as a weak link...

Have you seen the wide receiver position or the offensive line? How about finding a strong safety that can actually cover someone, something, anything in the passing game?

People are still blathering on about Albert and that he'll eventually "get it" or that Berry's inability to have any semblance of a pass defense gets chalked up to "he's a rookie and learning...give him time" but a guy like Belcher has a solid season and people around here want him replaced because the Chiefs have him listed at 228 lbs. and they think that's too light and that's the only thing that they can see.

Oh...that's right...it's the Casey Wiegmann Double Ignorant Observational Case Study. Well, Wiegmann is only 285 lbs. and he's in his 30's. That mean he's got to suck, right? Replace him! What? Belcher is listed at 228?! He's got to suck, right? Replace him! I don't care what they do on the field...he doesn't fit the scheme as I see it on paper. Replace him!

Belcher is solid.

[milkman]

Jesus...

Belcher has a very solid season as a starter, really filled the running lanes well, and knocked the piss out of people when he got there. That's exactly what you want out of your MLB in a 3-4.

But yet, you want to "upgrade" that as you perceive it as a weak link...

Have you seen the wide receiver position or the offensive line? How about finding a strong safety that can actually cover someone, something, anything in the passing game?

People are still blathering on about Albert and that he'll eventually "get it" or that Berry's inability to have any semblance of a pass defense gets chalked up to "he's a rookie and learning...give him time" but a guy like Belcher has a solid season and people around here want him replaced because the Chiefs have him listed at 228 lbs. and they think that's too light and that's the only thing that they can see.

Oh...that's right...it's the Casey Wiegmann Double Ignorant Observational Case Study. Well, Wiegmann is only 285 lbs. and he's in his 30's. That mean he's got to suck, right? Replace him! What? Belcher is listed at 228?! He's got to suck, right? Replace him! I don't care what they do on the field...he doesn't fit the scheme as I see it on paper. Replace him!

Belcher is solid.

Good God, you are a fucking moron.

[Detoxing]

You had me here.

Jesus...

Belcher has a very solid season as a starter, really filled the running lanes well, and knocked the piss out of people when he got there. That's exactly what you want out of your MLB in a 3-4.

But then you lost me here.

But yet, you want to "upgrade" that as you perceive it as a weak link...

Have you seen the wide receiver position or the offensive line? How about finding a strong safety that can actually cover someone, something, anything in the passing game?

People are still blathering on about Albert and that he'll eventually "get it" or that Berry's inability to have any semblance of a pass defense gets chalked up to "he's a rookie and learning...give him time" but a guy like Belcher has a solid season and people around here want him replaced because the Chiefs have him listed at 228 lbs. and they think that's too light and that's the only thing that they can see.

Oh...that's right...it's the Casey Wiegmann Double Ignorant Observational Case Study. Well, Wiegmann is only 285 lbs. and he's in his 30's. That mean he's got to suck, right? Replace him! What? Belcher is listed at 228?! He's got to suck, right? Replace him! I don't care what they do on the field...he doesn't fit the scheme as I see it on paper. Replace him!

Belcher is solid.

[DJ's left nut]

And there's the rub.

Give him 1 more season.

With an NFL strength and conditioning program, I think he can get there. He'll obviously never have the lateral quickness or the explosiveness (though I wouldn't underestimate him too much, he's no slug out there). But I think he's capable of getting just a bit quicker, just a bit stronger and just a bit more agile. DJ's maxed out physically, he's been in the league awhile now. Belcher is just now seeing the advantages of being a full-time football player and having access to some of the best trainers in the world.

You can see it in his body already, he's developed a lot since college. At 23, he still has another couple of years where he can increase his core strength before he tops out.

Again - considering their respective roles, I absolutely believe that Belcher can be as good a Ted backer as Johnson is a Mac backer.

[the Talking Can]

Nor are they close in terms of drive or attitude.

It's production that counts and with Belcher's makeup, if he can get to 80% of what DJ is physically, he could be just as good a player. If DJ would play with 80% the ferocity or intensity that Belcher plays with, he'd be a perennial All-Pro.

DJ is a much more explosive, dynamic, playmaker of a linebacker. However, he doesn't bring that hard-nosed tenacity you'd like to see from an ILB and he doesn't like to go into tight spaces and get nasty. In that sense, Belcher compliments him perfectly.

They're much different players who serve significantly different roles. All things considered, there's no reason Belcher can't be just as good at his job as Johnson is at his.

getting a NT is way more important than finding a replacement for Belcher...i thought the guy played well and hit like a mother %$#!@ regardless of his weight...i expect him to be even better next year...

[TheGuardian]

Jovan is a second year guy that just started his first season.

He had 84 tackles, a sack, a forced fumble, and 3 tackles for a loss.

Yet people want to talk about drafting a guy to upgrade? Pretty stupid.

Jovan is a hard worker, plays with a lot of desire and actually is more athletic than people are letting on here. The "how much he weighs" thing, well I owned asses in that discussion so that's done. As far as the rest? He's going to get another year to start, and he should only get better. He did a great job of doing the dirty work inside for a guy in his first year starting. Our run defense improved by leaps and bounds after he and DJ were inserted into the starting lineup this season. He's a part of that.

[the Talking Can]

Berry's inability to have any semblance of a pass defense gets chalked up to "he's a rookie and learning...give him time"



times like this I have to assume you were hanging out with blowmo during the games....

[the Talking Can]

Jovan is a second year guy that just started his first season.

He had 84 tackles, a sack, a forced fumble, and 3 tackles for a loss.

Yet people want to talk about drafting a guy to upgrade? Pretty stupid.

Jovan is a hard worker, plays with a lot of desire and actually is more athletic than people are letting on here. The "how much he weighs" thing, well I owned asses in that discussion so that's done. As far as the rest? He's going to get another year to start, and he should only get better. He did a great job of doing the dirty work inside for a guy in his first year starting. Our run defense improved by leaps and bounds after he and DJ were inserted into the starting lineup this season. He's a part of that.

can't you just see fake football guy falling head over ass down a long flight of stairs, then popping up and yelling to hysterically laughing crowd that he just "Owned That Stair Case's Ass!"

[DoucheMcCloud]

Jovan is a second year guy that just started his first season.

He had 84 tackles, a sack, a forced fumble, and 3 tackles for a loss.

Yet people want to talk about drafting a guy to upgrade? Pretty stupid.

Jovan is a hard worker, plays with a lot of desire and actually is more athletic than people are letting on here. The "how much he weighs" thing, well I owned asses in that discussion so that's done. As far as the rest? He's going to get another year to start, and he should only get better. He did a great job of doing the dirty work inside for a guy in his first year starting. Our run defense improved by leaps and bounds after he and DJ were inserted into the starting lineup this season. He's a part of that.

Look, I'm not stating that the guy in any sucks or is undeserving of a role on the team. But let's look at facts: The Chiefs were gashed in the run game by the Raiders and even the Broncos. They lost several games by 20 points or more and the interior of the defense could certainly use an upgrade. And quite honestly, I do not see a single NT that is going to magically transform the middle of the defense. Help? Sure. But as far as anyone knows, there are no Raji's or Ngata's available this year in the draft or free agency.

Hopefully, Belcher can continue to improve and there's no doubt that he made a leap from year one to year two. But the position needs an upgrade and whether it's him that makes the leap or a free agent, I don't really care.

[morphius]

It seemed a lot of time he was more interested in taking on the blocker than filling the gapping hole, and then couldn't get off the block and the RB would zoom right on by for a big chunk.

[DJ's left nut]

Look, I'm not stating that the guy in any sucks or is undeserving of a role on the team. But let's look at facts: The Chiefs were gashed in the run game by the Raiders and even the Broncos. They lost several games by 20 points or more and the interior of the defense could certainly use an upgrade. And quite honestly, I do not see a single NT that is going to magically transform the middle of the defense. Help? Sure. But as far as anyone knows, there are no Raji's or Ngata's available this year in the draft or free agency.

Hopefully, Belcher can continue to improve and there's no doubt that he made a leap from year one to year two. But the position needs an upgrade and whether it's him that makes the leap or a free agent, I don't really care.

Do you think Ray Lewis as our TLB solves those problems? After watching what happened to the guy when Shields and Waters got to roam free, I don't.

Failings in the running game in a 3-4 defense rest heavily with your down lineman, VERY heavily.

Unless you see a MLB out there that would be good enough to overcome the failings of our DTs, why make a move just for the sake of making a move? Even if it's a marginal upgrade, is that worth the cost? Or is it worth losing out on the opporunity to see what Belcher could do?

If we had a good interior line last season and we didn't see Belcher playing with the leverage and attitude to make himself a very good run-stopper, perhaps I'd be on board. But we saw plenty of reasons that the rush defense could've been poor that have nothing to do with Belcher and we saw plenty of things from Belcher to suggest he could be a very good run stopper.

[DoucheMcCloud]

It seemed a lot of time he was more interested in taking on the blocker than filling the gapping hole, and then couldn't get off the block and the RB would zoom right on by for a big chunk.

This is what I saw as well, which seems to be in direct contradiction to what people are arguing.

[DJ's left nut]

It seemed a lot of time he was more interested in taking on the blocker than filling the gapping hole, and then couldn't get off the block and the RB would zoom right on by for a big chunk.

Perhaps that the way the defense was designed. Ordinarily your NT should've occupied that blocker (or maybe your 5-tech). If he doesn't, it's up to the next man in the scheme to occupy the blocker and allow a free player to make the tackle.

Let's not act like it's easy for a linebacker to just throw off a guard here. Like I said, even Lewis gets owned fairly often when he's asked to do that. If the blocker is coming through, it's probably a pretty smart idea for Belcher to take out the blocker and let the guys behind him clean up the mess. At that point, he's mitigating the damages.

The alternative is that he tries to go around him or ignore him altogether, in the process he gets routed out of the play and the blocker is still there to take out the 2nd level and bust the back for an even bigger run.

Again, in our defense, it all comes down to the fact that we don't have a NT. This has been a huge failure by Pioli.

[DJ's left nut]

This is what I saw as well, which seems to be in direct contradiction to what people are arguing.

Name an interior linebacker that can consistently throw off a guard.

Remember - the guard gets paid to play football as well. In fact, he gets paid exclusively to move large objects out of the way. His sole purpose on that field is to run into someone and dislodge them from where they want to be. This person will generally weigh in excess of 300 lbs.

There's just not an ILB in the game that will consistently be able to go head up with a guard and 'get off' his block. In a 4-3, the linebacker is much less likely to be facing a guard and is likely dealing with a FB or TE, which is managable for a LBer. But in a 3-4, it's almost always going to be an interior lineman or even a tackle trying to set the edge. That ILB is going to have one hell of a time moving a person that has 50 lbs on him and knows what the play is designed to do.

You're making unreasonable demands of the kid, IMO.

[DoucheMcCloud]

Let's not act like it's easy for a linebacker to just throw off a guard here.

But that's the primary role of a TED backer.

[DoucheMcCloud]

Name an interior linebacker that can consistently throw off a guard.



Lawrence Timmons and Bart Scott, just to name two.

[DJ's left nut]

But that's the primary role of a TED backer.

Only if you also believe that the primary role of the LT is to stonewall a pass-rushing end and pancake him.

Lawrence Timmons and Bart Scott, just to name two.

Oh c'mon, I watched Scott get swallowed up several times against the Steelers, Mendenhall had his way with them in that game. And for a guy that's so adept at hurling blockers out of the way, he still only registered 81 tackles.

And Timmons plays in a completely different style of defense than Belcher. In fact, he plays a position far more in line with what DJ is asked to do. He is rarely ever asked to take on guards, so I have a hard time believing you can affirmatively state that he's significantly better at it than Belcher.

Oh, and he kinda has one of the best NTs in football parked in front of him.

To me this just screams of the grass being greener. Bart Scott is not a guard-mauling destroyer of worlds. He gets washed out by interior lineman the same as Lewis did and the same as Belcher did. Sometimes he'll beat them through speed or balance, but then again, sometimes Belcher does the same. The problem is that Belcher rarely gets any help from his interior line so it appears more common that he can't get off his man than it does for a guy like Scott or Timmons.

[DoucheMcCloud]

To me this just screams of the grass being greener.

You can believe whatever you want.

But it's silly to believe that the ILB play doesn't need to upgraded, whether it's a overall improvement Belcher's play or a different player altogether.

And I'm glad you watched one game and determined that Bart Scott isn't a premiere ILB in the NFL. Thanks.

[Branden Albert's Huge Balls]

This weight thing is silly.

Does anyone really think the guy holds up butting heads with guards for 16 games if he was 228?

Clearly he can handle the physical side of the position so I don't think his weight is an issue.

What is an issue is that he doesn't have great athleticism. See the play where the whiffed on Kerry Collins.

I think he is a good stopgap as many have said, but we could probably upgrade the position down the line with a mid-round pick.

[J Diddy]

You can believe whatever you want.

But it's silly to believe that the ILB play doesn't need to upgraded, whether it's a overall improvement Belcher's play or a different player altogether.

And I'm glad you watched one game and determined that Bart Scott isn't a premiere ILB in the NFL. Thanks.


Some people just get it quicker than others.

:D

[DJ's left nut]

You can believe whatever you want.

But it's silly to believe that the ILB play doesn't need to upgraded, whether it's a overall improvement Belcher's play or a different player altogether.

And I'm glad you watched one game and determined that Bart Scott isn't a premiere ILB in the NFL. Thanks.

Did I not expressly note that I would have no problem with trading Belcher if he doesn't improve next season (especially if he has a true NT in front of him)?

Why yes, yes I did. Don't go trying to build straw-men or trying to get me to defend arguments I never made. I've stated only that you're applying an unrealistic standard to the Ted position and that Belcher has the attitude and talent to reach a realistic one.

But you're willing to give up on the guy already when there are positions on this team that are clearly in a FAR more dire need of improvement than his, and those positions aren't occupied by young players that still have some upside left to offer.

[DoucheMcCloud]

Did I not expressly note that I would have no problem with trading Belcher if he doesn't improve next season (especially if he has a true NT in front of him)?

The main point I've tried to stress throughout this thread is that the Chiefs need to improve the interior of their defense and it would be foolish to pass on anyone that could do so because Belcher's is on the roster. I also believe it would be easier to upgrade the TED position than find a Raji/Ngata type that can immediately step in and upgrade the NT. I think they'll find an upgrade (I mean, that have to, right?) but that doesn't mean it'll solve all of their interior issues.


But you're willing to give up on the guy already when there are positions on this team that are clearly in a FAR more dire need of improvement than his, and those positions aren't occupied by young players that still have some upside left to offer.

First off, no where have I stated that I'm "ready to give up". Belcher made a nice leap from season one to season two but he has limited physical talent (mainly speed) and his quickness, strength and instincts need to improve before he can be considered a long term solution. A few others have mentioned that they saw him consistently pushed out of the play by opposing guards, so it's not just me.

[Chief Faithful]

Belcher is still a very young assending athletic player that fits the role of thumper in Crennel's defense and who is starting to receive attention around the league. Even if the position could be upgraded it does not seem to be a top 5 in priority. I would much rather see a focus in order of WR, NT, C, T, QB (backup).

[DJ's left nut]

The main point I've tried to stress throughout this thread is that the Chiefs need to improve the interior of their defense and it would be foolish to pass on anyone that could do so because Belcher's is on the roster. I also believe it would be easier to upgrade the TED position than find a Raji/Ngata type that can immediately step in and upgrade the NT. I think they'll find an upgrade (I mean, that have to, right?) but that doesn't mean it'll solve all of their interior issues.

Any upgrade at ILB will be marginalized if we have no NT. To quantify it, lets say that Belcher is an 80 ILB and Hawk is a 90, gaining you 10 points. Well the fact that we still don't have a damn NT is going to drag Hawk down to production levels far closer to those achieved by an 80 LB than he would've.

In other words - you're simply patching a hole in the dike and you're doing so fairly ineffectively. In the process, you're eliminating the possibility that Belcher could continue to develop and be one of those guys. If you don't have a true NT in place, the difference in production from Belcher to Hawk is going to be marginal.

First off, no where have I stated that I'm "ready to give up". Belcher made a nice leap from season one to season two but he has limited physical talent (mainly speed) and his quickness, strength and instincts need to improve before he can be considered a long term solution. A few others have mentioned that they saw him consistently pushed out of the play by opposing guards, so it's not just me.

And Bart Scott is a burner? You sarcastically noted that I wrote Scott off as an elite ILB but I've done nothing of the sort. I've simply noted that he's not Hercules out there throwing guards around and blowing up every running play. He's also not terribly fast. However, he's still been a good ILB, in fact he's one of the best. This simply my previous position - no ILB, no matter how good they are, simply tosses guards out of the way with abandon. All the while, Scott has done this well with phsycal attributes that aren't terribly dissimilar to Belchers. They're both guys that are going to play around 240 (Belcher will absolutely end up there when he's Scott's age and likely far sooner). They're both guys that run a 40 in the 4.8 range.

What makes Scott so good is the fact that he's fearless, he's mean and he's smart. Belcher has the first 2 covered and the last may well come with time. Recall, Scott wasn't anything until 2005 when he was in his 5th season and was 26 years old. Oh, and he came into the league as an undrafted free agent out of a small college.

If anything, Bart Scott perfectly exemplifies why we shouldn't be so eager to 'upgrade' from Belcher until we truly know what we have in him. There's absolutely nothing, not a single thing, in his performance to date or his physical skill set that would preclude him from becoming exactly the player you have cited as someone that should replace him.

[DoucheMcCloud]

Any upgrade at ILB will be marginalized if we have no NT. To quantify it, lets say that Belcher is an 80 ILB and Hawk is a 90, gaining you 10 points. Well the fact that we still don't have a damn NT is going to drag Hawk down to production levels far closer to those achieved by an 80 LB than he would've.

In other words - you're simply patching a hole in the dike and you're doing so fairly ineffectively. In the process, you're eliminating the possibility that Belcher could continue to develop and be one of those guys. If you don't have a true NT in place, the difference in production from Belcher to Hawk is going to be marginal.

No, I think it's ridiculous that anyone thinks that NT's like Ngata or Raji grow on trees and that at this point in time, the Chiefs need to upgrade the interior of their defense any way they possibly can.

If anything, Bart Scott perfectly exemplifies why we shouldn't be so eager to 'upgrade' from Belcher until we truly know what we have in him. There's absolutely nothing, not a single thing, in his performance to date or his physical skill set that would preclude him from becoming exactly the player you have cited as someone that should replace him.

If there's an opportunity to upgrade any position on the Chiefs roster, they should absolutely perform their due diligence and make that move. Behind Belcher and DJ there's no one that can step in and play at a high level.

As I said earlier, I find it unlikely the Chiefs will find a player the caliber of Ngata or Raji this offseason, and something has to be done to greatly improve the interior of the front seven.

[Pushead2]

What is an issue is that he doesn't have great athleticism. See the play where the whiffed on Kerry Collins.



boy was that bad....:shake:

[DJ's left nut]

No, I think it's ridiculous that anyone thinks that NT's like Ngata or Raji grow on trees and that at this point in time, the Chiefs need to upgrade the interior of their defense any way they possibly can.



If there's an opportunity to upgrade any position on the Chiefs roster, they should absolutely perform their due diligence and make that move. Behind Belcher and DJ there's no one that can step in and play at a high level.

As I said earlier, I find it unlikely the Chiefs will find a player the caliber of Ngata or Raji this offseason, and something has to be done to greatly improve the interior of the front seven.

This team doesn't need Ngata to greatly improve it's NT situation. Soliai would be a massive upgrade. Franklin would be a great addition. Hell, Powe in the draft would be. Further, there are always under the radar guys out there that can bust out if given a chance. I'm not looking for a perennial pro-bowler (again with the straw-men), I'm simply looking for a NT that is actually built to play NT.

That alone will make a massive difference in the defense and will let us see what we truly have in Belcher. I think we'll be very happy with it.

[TheGuardian]

Bart Scott is one of the best inside linebackers in the league now.

Wow.

Bart has a big mouth and a bad temper, which gets him a lot of noise. But his actual play is above average. That's it.

[chiefzilla1501]

No, I think it's ridiculous that anyone thinks that NT's like Ngata or Raji grow on trees and that at this point in time, the Chiefs need to upgrade the interior of their defense any way they possibly can.



If there's an opportunity to upgrade any position on the Chiefs roster, they should absolutely perform their due diligence and make that move. Behind Belcher and DJ there's no one that can step in and play at a high level.

As I said earlier, I find it unlikely the Chiefs will find a player the caliber of Ngata or Raji this offseason, and something has to be done to greatly improve the interior of the front seven.

Here's the thing. We saw what Belcher can do with negative play from the NT. So right now, any new NT has to do better than "garbage." If we get average NT play, that in itself will make Belcher a lot better.

And I'm not convinced at all that a good NT is that hard to find. Most NTs are taken in the later rounds, and they are among the lowest paid players on defense (which is odd, given how crucial they are to the defense). We're seeing NTs like Pickett, Aubrayo Franklin, and Kyle Williams play solid at the position out of obscurity.

It just so happens that Pioli has made zero effort to bring one in. And some of that is due to bad luck. I'm still pretty convinced that if last year wasn't uncapped, the Chiefs would have been strong players in the Wilfork sweepstakes.

[seaofred]

The main point I've tried to stress throughout this thread is that the Chiefs need to improve the interior of their defense and it would be foolish to pass on anyone that could do so because Belcher's is on the roster.

So if the interior of the D needs upgraded, when do we start talking about upgrading DJ?

[JASONSAUTO]

Bart Scott is one of the best inside linebackers in the league now.

Wow.

Bart has a big mouth and a bad temper, which gets him a lot of noise. But his actual play is above average. That's it.

i wanted him so bad when he was a FA

[DoucheMcCloud]

So if the interior of the D needs upgraded, when do we start talking about upgrading DJ?

So you think that Derrick Johnson needs to be replaced?

[DoucheMcCloud]

And I'm not convinced at all that a good NT is that hard to find. Most NTs are taken in the later rounds, and they are among the lowest paid players on defense (which is odd, given how crucial they are to the defense). We're seeing NTs like Pickett, Aubrayo Franklin, and Kyle Williams play solid at the position out of obscurity.



Obscurity?

You're talking about a former first round draft as being "obscure"? And Franklin was a draft choice of the Ravens, who seem to know a thing or two about drafting and developing defensive players.

Furthermore, all of guys you've mentioned took years to get where they are today. It's highly unlikely that the Chiefs can pluck a 5th rounder out of the 2011 draft and see an immediate upgrade at the position.

It would be awesome, but unlikely.

[DJ's left nut]

So you think that Derrick Johnson needs to be replaced?

The Chiefs need to improve their interior defense. If they can find an obvious upgrade from Derrick Johnson, they should do it.

Ah, behold the power of meaningless truisms.

[Saccopoo]

No, I think it's ridiculous that anyone thinks that NT's like Ngata or Raji grow on trees and that at this point in time, the Chiefs need to upgrade the interior of their defense any way they possibly can.

Conversely, Dick Butkus', Mike Singletarys' and Pat Willis' don't grow on trees either. And, as people have pointed out, unless you upgrade the NT position, you are going to need a ILB of that caliber to effectively reach the goals/performance you are envisioning for this defense without a decent nose.

Johnson and Belcher showed a lot with not a lot of consistent production in front of them. You get some guys up there that can keep the offensive line guys from getting into the second level and they will have even better years than what you saw last season, which, in my opinion, was pretty damn good by both players.

Furthermore, all of guys you've mentioned took years to get where they are today. It's highly unlikely that the Chiefs can pluck a 5th rounder out of the 2011 draft and see an immediate upgrade at the position.

It would be awesome, but unlikely.

Kyle Williams, who is currently the best nose tackle in the NFL, was a fifth rounder in 2006. You got to be a little lucky, but you also got to be good. There will be some guys at that area that might have a little Kyle Williams in them. The Ian Williams guy from Notre Dame and Sione Fua from Stanford should be there in the mid-rounds because they don't fit "the prototype" in terms of size, but both were very productive in college as nose tackles.

[DoucheMcCloud]

The Chiefs need to improve their interior defense. If they can find an obvious upgrade from Derrick Johnson, they should do it.

Ah, behold the power of meaningless truisms.

Uh huh, nice way to bolster your claim, Counselor.

But you're right: Belcher was awesome in 2010 and the Chiefs shouldn't even consider upgrading the position.

My bad.

[DoucheMcCloud]

Belcher showed a lot with not a lot of consistent production in front of them.

Yeah, he clearly has shown that he's an amazing ILB that quickly sheds offensive lineman and makes tough tackles in the run game.

I couldn't believe his effectiveness against Darren McFadden and Knowshon Moreno. He was practically the defense in those games.

[ChiefsCountry]

And I'm not convinced at all that a good NT is that hard to find. Most NTs are taken in the later rounds, and they are among the lowest paid players on defense (which is odd, given how crucial they are to the defense). We're seeing NTs like Pickett, Aubrayo Franklin, and Kyle Williams play solid at the position out of obscurity.


Yeah considering the top 3-4 defenses are built around no-name NT's. :shake:

[DJ's left nut]

Uh huh, nice way to bolster your claim, Counselor.

But you're right: Belcher was awesome in 2010 and the Chiefs shouldn't even consider upgrading the position.

My bad.

Do you believe Derrick Johnson fits that classification?

I know he had a great first 4-6 games of the season, then was prone to long stretches of being invisible or flat out ineffective from that point forward.

Either you believe Johnson was an elite ILB last season (who can't shed blockers, I must add) or you are applying an inconsistent standard to the respective players.

[DoucheMcCloud]

Do you believe Derrick Johnson fits that classification?

I know he had a great first 4-6 games of the season, then was prone to long stretches of being invisible or flat out ineffective from that point forward.

Either you believe Johnson was an elite ILB last season (who can't shed blockers, I must add) or you are applying an inconsistent standard to the respective players.

Johnson is playing the Mike position and it's his job to make tackles. As a matter of fact, he had 121 tackles this past season, so I'd say he's doing his job.

And yes, I thought he was among the league's better ILBer's. I don't know how that can be disputed but I'm sure you'll try.

[chiefzilla1501]

Yeah considering the top 3-4 defenses are built around no-name NT's. :shake:

The fact is that most 3-4 defenses in the league not only have a solid NT. They have 2 good ones, and both of them are not very highly paid. Like Center and Running Back, despite being very important positions, those positions aren't drafted until the 2nd or 3rd round. And you can easily find gems in the later rounds as well. The skill set for the position isn't all that difficult.

I'm not saying you don't try hard to find a NT. I'm just saying it's wrong to say that it's this impossible position to fill and that we're screwed because we can't get a Raji or a Ngata.

The reason the Chiefs don't have a Nose Tackle today is because they haven't even remotely tried to get one. If the Chiefs bring in Solilai and draft a 2nd or 3rd or 4th rounder (assuming they do good advanced scouting), they could very, very easily be secure at the NT position.

[DJ's left nut]

Johnson is playing the Mike position and it's his job to make tackles. As a matter of fact, he had 121 tackles this past season, so I'd say he's doing his job.

And yes, I thought he was among the league's better ILBer's. I don't know how that can be disputed but I'm sure you'll try.

Your position is essentially that our interior defense was bad last season and since we can't upgrade at NT, we need to upgrade somewhere.

So if a better sideline to sideline backer shook free, shouldn't the Chiefs be compelled to 'exercise their due dilligence' and upgrade?

[DoucheMcCloud]

Your position is essentially that our interior defense was bad last season and since we can't upgrade at NT, we need to upgrade somewhere.

So if a better sideline to sideline backer shook free, shouldn't the Chiefs be compelled to 'exercise their due dilligence' and upgrade?

JFC, you love to argue.

The TED backer and NT NEED to upgraded. Nowhere did I state ANYTHING about Derrick Johnson or his play and I think it's ludicrous to suggest that he's going ANYWHERE after the extension he just signed.

But if you think that DJ needs to replaced, by all means, let us know why.

[DJ's left nut]

JFC, you love to argue.

The TED backer and NT NEED to upgraded. Nowhere did I state ANYTHING about Derrick Johnson or his play and I think it's ludicrous to suggest that he's going ANYWHERE after the extension he just signed.

But if you think that DJ needs to replaced, by all means, let us know why.

I don't think DJ needs to be replaced. Nor do I think Belcher needs to be replaced. I don't think the problem with our run defense was our linebackers, well apart from Vrabel's inability even make it to his gap before the RB clears it.

You've made a handful of nebulous references to our 'porous run defense' as reasons that Belcher should be upgraded on. You've also made some comparisons to Bart Scott, a person to whom Belcher compares very favorably, to further suggest we should improve on Belcher. Afterall "something" needs to be done.

But if I turn around and say "well our run defense was porous and Patrick Willis gets sideline to sideline better than DJ, so we should upgrade on DJ if possible" isn't that playing the same game?

[DoucheMcCloud]

I don't think DJ needs to be replaced. Nor do I think Belcher needs to be replaced. I don't think the problem with our run defense was our linebackers, well apart from Vrabel's inability even make it to his gap before the RB clears it.

You've made a handful of nebulous references to our 'porous run defense' as reasons that Belcher should be upgraded on. You've also made some comparisons to Bart Scott, a person to whom Belcher compares very favorably, to further suggest we should improve on Belcher. Afterall "something" needs to be done.

But if I turn around and say "well our run defense was porous and Patrick Willis gets sideline to sideline better than DJ, so we should upgrade on DJ if possible" isn't that playing the same game?

And you've completely avoided any attempt to address the fact that he was punked over and over and over by guards, running backs and fullbacks, that he's too light, that his lateral movement sucks and he's slow (4.85 at 228 pounds isn't exactly fast).

You asked who was a ILB that shed blocks consistently and I named ONLY two: Timmons and Scott. How many fucking Jets and Ravens games have YOU watched the past two years? One? Two? And then you avoid addressing the Timmons comparison because you say his role is "different". Bullshit.

Nice.

The NT position needs to be addressed. Period. The TED backer position needs to be addressed. Period. There's no depth behind Belcher and if an upgrade or competition for the TED position can be found, the Chiefs would be remiss if they passed.

[DJ's left nut]

And you've completely avoided any attempt to address the fact that he was punked over and over and over by guards, running backs and fullbacks, that he's too light, that his lateral movement sucks and he's slow (4.85 at 228 pounds isn't exactly fast).

You asked who was a ILB that shed blocks consistently and I named ONLY two: Timmons and Scott. How many ****ing Jets and Ravens games have YOU watched the past two years? One? Two? And then you avoid addressing the Timmons comparison because you say his role is "different". Bullshit.

Nice.

The NT position needs to be addressed. Period. The TED backer position needs to be addressed. Period. There's no depth behind Belcher and if an upgrade or competition for the TED position can be found, the Chiefs would be remiss if they passed.

Timmons role isn't different? He doesn't have an elite NT in front of him? And what exactly does he have to do with the Ravens?

I don't know how many of the Jets and Steelers games I've watched over the last 2 seasons, but I know they're on TV all the damn time, I know my neighbor has Sunday ticket and I watch a shitload of football. So unless you've become some guru of East Coast football out in Cali, I'm not inclined to believe you've watched infinitely more Jets or Steelers games than I have.

And Belcher was at 242 when he ran his 4.85 at the combine (i.e. almost exactly what Scott's doing). I don't know what he runs it in now, but I don't imagine he's lost any steps at 23 years old. And no, he wasn't getting consistently 'punked' by FBs and RBs. He was, however, consistently getting blasted by guards and over the course of the game that certainly took a toll on him. So yeah, he wasn't as effective as an ILB that didn't have to take on 300 lb men as often would've been.

You say I'm ignoring your point, but you continue to disregard the fact that Belcher was constantly under attack by blockers due to completely ineffectual play by his NT. This damages his reputation (the more often he has to shed tacklers, the more often he won't manage it by the virtue of sheer mathmatics), but it also damages his ability to effectively shed those same blockers by wearing his ass out.

[DJ's left nut]

HUGE!! HEAVY!! TOUGH!!! BUILT LIKE A BRICK SHITHOUSE!!!!

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2f/Bart_Scott.JPG/175px-Bart_Scott.JPG

Tiny scrawny pussy that would get owned by Darren Sproles:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3b/Jovan_Belcher.JPG/225px-Jovan_Belcher.JPG

I can totally see that.

[DoucheMcCloud]

Timmons role isn't different? He doesn't have an elite NT in front of him? And what exactly does he have to do with the Ravens?

I don't know how many of the Jets and Steelers games I've watched over the last 2 seasons, but I know they're on TV all the damn time, I know my neighbor has Sunday ticket and I watch a shitload of football. So unless you've become some guru of East Coast football out in Cali, I'm not inclined to believe you've watched infinitely more Jets or Steelers games than I have.

Well, since I DO the Sunday Ticket and I DO watch a shit ton of Jets and Steelers, I'd say you're wrong.

And Belcher was at 242 when he ran his 4.85 at the combine (i.e. almost exactly what Scott's doing). I don't know what he runs it in now, but I don't imagine he's lost any steps at 23 years old. And no, he wasn't getting consistently 'punked' by FBs and RBs. He was, however, consistently getting blasted by guards and over the course of the game that certainly took a toll on him. So yeah, he wasn't as effective as an ILB that didn't have to take on 300 lb men as often would've been.

You say I'm ignoring your point, but you continue to disregard the fact that Belcher was constantly under attack by blockers due to completely ineffectual play by his NT. This damages his reputation (the more often he has to shed tacklers, the more often he won't manage it by the virtue of sheer mathmatics), but it also damages his ability to effectively shed those same blockers by wearing his ass out.

So, you're stating unequivocally that an upgrade or competition at the TED backer position would be a complete waste until a NT is in place? And that Belcher wouldn't benefit from playing at a higher weight or being more instinctive?

Okay. I'm convinced. Belcher is a stud and the TED backer couldn't possibly be upgraded with a different linebacker.

:rolleyes:

[DoucheMcCloud]

HUGE!! HEAVY!! TOUGH!!! BUILT LIKE A BRICK SHITHOUSE!!!!



Tiny scrawny pussy that would get owned by Darren Sproles:



I can totally see that.

If Jovan Belcher is ever the leader of this defense and plays like Scott in either Baltimore or New York, I'll be thrilled.

And once again, I didn't put Scott on a pedestal, I just answered your question.

But let me know when Belcher signs a $48 million dollar deal. Maybe he and The Guardian will buy you drinks.

[FAX]

What options are available to us in respect to the NT position, guys? FA, draft, trade, existing player we've hidden on the PS? Any specific names or opportunities come to mind?

Surely our linebacker play would improve if we could beef up the DL.

FAX

[milkman]

What options are available to us in respect to the NT position, guys? FA, draft, trade, existing player we've hidden on the PS? Any specific names or opportunities come to mind?

Surely our linebacker play would improve if we could beef up the DL.

FAX

Paul Saliai, FA NT of the Dolphins.

He'd be my priority target, along with Ryan Kalil in free agency, if there is free agency.

[DJ's left nut]

So, you're stating unequivocally that an upgrade or competition at the TED backer position would be a complete waste until a NT is in place? And that Belcher wouldn't benefit from playing at a higher weight or being more instinctive?

Okay. I'm convinced. Belcher is a stud and the TED backer couldn't possibly be upgraded with a different linebacker.



As I said from the very beginning: You're providing a useless truism.

Unless you have the best player in the league at every position in the field, your team is always improved by upgrading on a player. The question is not and has not ever been 'is Jovan Belcher an irreplaceable, elite ILB that clearly cannot be upgraded upon?'

The question is: Is that a wise use of limited resources in light of the many other holes this team has in combination with Belcher's youth and production.

I see that answer as an unqualified 'NO' - it's a horrid use of those resources. His instincts are not bad at all for a guy that came from a small program. In fact, it's the more 'refined' areas of his game that need work (ability to operate well in space, how to use his hands effectively, etc...). Fortunately he's 23 years old in his 2nd year of professional football, so I think there's time for him yet to improve in those areas. And would he be better if he was heavier? I don't really think he needs to be, as much as it pains me to admit it, I think the Guardian is right here - he's probably playing around 230-240 lbs. Could he put on 5-10? Sure, but again, as I've noted, give him another season on an NFL strength and conditioning schedule and there's no question in my mind he can get there.

You continue, over and over again, to ignore my clearly stated positions in favor of useless straw-men. Perhaps you should just go re-read the thread before you hit submit next time and ask yourself "has the person I'm speaking to already addressed this?" It would really save us both some time.

[DJ's left nut]

Paul Saliai, FA NT of the Dolphins.

He'd be my priority target, along with Ryan Kalil in free agency, if there is free agency.

Co-sign.

[DoucheMcCloud]

As I said from the very beginning: You're providing a useless truism.

Unless you have the best player in the league at every position in the field, your team is always improved by upgrading on a player. The question is not and has not ever been 'is Jovan Belcher an irreplaceable, elite ILB that clearly cannot be upgraded upon?'

The question is: Is that a wise use of limited resources in light of the many other holes this team has in combination with Belcher's youth and production.

I see that answer as an unqualified 'NO' - it's a horrid use of those resources. His instincts are not bad at all for a guy that came from a small program. In fact, it's the more 'refined' areas of his game that need work (ability to operate well in space, how to use his hands effectively, etc...). Fortunately he's 23 years old in his 2nd year of professional football, so I think there's time for him yet to improve in those areas. And would he be better if he was heavier? I don't really think he needs to be, as much as it pains me to admit it, I think the Guardian is right here - he's probably playing around 230-240 lbs. Could he put on 5-10? Sure, but again, as I've noted, give him another season on an NFL strength and conditioning schedule and there's no question in my mind he can get there.

You continue, over and over again, to ignore my clearly stated positions in favor of useless straw-men. Perhaps you should just go re-read the thread before you hit submit next time and ask yourself "has the person I'm speaking to already addressed this?" It would really save us both some time.

I've got a better idea: I'll just ignore your stupid ass altogether.

Yay Belcher! Best ILB in the league.

Fucktard.

[milkman]

I've got a better idea: I'll just ignore your stupid ass altogether.

Yay Belcher! Best ILB in the league.

****tard.

Come on Dane.

That isn't remotely close to what he is saying.

[DoucheMcCloud]

Come on Dane.

That isn't remotely close to what he is saying.

No, but he's completely avoiding the fact that the TED backer position could be upgraded and is blaming Belcher's issues squarely on the lack of a true nose tackle.

As I stated earlier, Belcher clearly improved from his rookie season but he still has issues of shedding blocks, speed, quickness and instinct. We all know that guys may run slower but play faster due to their football instincts but, I haven't seen that ability in Belcher yet. Maybe he'll make another huge leap from year two to year three and it won't be an issue from a starting position standpoint.

But again, if the Chiefs can logically upgrade that position, whether it be depth or competition, it would be a mistake to pass.

[TheGuardian]

Every position could in theory be upgraded.

However upgrading at inside backer over Belcher is NOT pressing. His play was solid, and when you are in your second year and only first year starting and you are solid why would we be out trying to find an upgrade instead of allowing the player to ascend?

It's stupid as shit.

[milkman]

No, but he's completely avoiding the fact that the TED backer position could be upgraded and is blaming Belcher's issues squarely on the lack of a true nose tackle.

As I stated earlier, Belcher clearly improved from his rookie season but he still has issues of shedding blocks, speed, quickness and instinct. We all know that guys may run slower but play faster due to their football instincts but, I haven't seen that ability in Belcher yet. Maybe he'll make another huge leap from year two to year three and it won't be an issue from a starting position standpoint.

But again, if the Chiefs can logically upgrade that position, whether it be depth or competition, it would be a mistake to pass.

His argument is that Belcher shows signs of being an ascending player, and that there should be no rush to replace him, given the more pressing needs that this team has.

He does need to improve, but part of his struggles can also be directly attributed to the fact that guards can get out on him unmolested, and the fact is that in a battle between the guard and LB, the gurd is going to win that battle a 80-85% of the time.

[DoucheMcCloud]

Every position could in theory be upgraded.

However upgrading at inside backer over Belcher is NOT pressing. His play was solid, and when you are in your second year and only first year starting and you are solid why would we be out trying to find an upgrade instead of allowing the player to ascend?

It's stupid as shit.

I never stated it was pressing. What I stated was that if the Chiefs passed on an opportunity to acquire a solid backup or even competition at that position, they'd be remiss in doing so.

Nothing less. I never stated he sucked, I never stated he shouldn't be the starter, I never stated he hadn't improved - nothing. None of the above.

[DoucheMcCloud]

His argument is that Belcher shows signs of being an ascending player, and that there should be no rush to replace him, given the more pressing needs that this team has.

He does need to improve, but part of his struggles can also be directly attributed to the fact that guards can get out on him unmolested, and the fact is that in a battle between the guard and LB, the gurd is going to win that battle a 80-85% of the time.

And I've not stated anywhere in this thread that there should be a rush to replace him. I've pointed out his weaknesses and stated that the Chiefs would be remiss if they passed on a logical possibility of adding a backup or even competition at the spot.

"Logical" implying that it would be a no-brainer.

[beach tribe]

If the Chiefs can find a replacement for Belcher in the draft or free agency, he'll be replaced.

He's not the "Thumper" that Crennel envisions for his defense.

I'd like to add that I think Crennel really likes Belcher, and what he brings to the table.
Given the fact that he gave belcher the responsibility of the mic'ed up helmet from game 1 on monday night in Arrowhead, I'm led to believe, that not only does he think he can play the position, but he also thinks he can be a leader on this defense.

[the Talking Can]

i admit to having a soft spot for UDFA's.....

i don't think anyone could have predicted the type of production we got from him last season...yeah, he can improve, but there were times when he looked great...and he made some crushing fucking hits which our defense has not been known for in the past..


unrelated to the argument about him, but based on his play last year, if you re-did the 09 draft, he'd be a 4th maybe a 3rd rounder, no?

[JASONSAUTO]

I feel the same


i admit to having a soft spot for UDFA's.....

i don't think anyone could have predicted the type of production we got from him last season...yeah, he can improve, but there were times when he looked great...and he made some crushing fucking hits which our defense has not been known for in the past..


unrelated to the argument about him, but based on his play last year, if you re-did the 09 draft, he'd be a 4th maybe a 3rd rounder, no?
Posted via Mobile Device

[michaelj_58]

I agree with the nose tackle, center and see what they can do,free agent receiver!!!!!!!!!

[salame]

http://cdn2.sbnation.com/imported_assets/223657/46-chiefscamp_sp_080609_dre_0925f.standalone.prod_affiliate.81.jpg


my only beef is that he isn't very cute

[seaofred]

So you think that Derrick Johnson needs to be replaced?

No, but you said the interior of our D needed upgraded. DJ plays on the interior. So it sounds like you think he needs replaced . I just wanted to know who you want to replace DJ.