Rank our starters/primary players in terms of run defense.

[Rain Man]

There are some discussions about Belcher in another thread, and it got me to thinking about this.

Within their responsibilities, rank our starters and primary players in terms of how well they play run defense. By 'within their responsibilities', I'm asking you to compare them relative to the expectations for their position, not relative to whom you'd want in a one-on-one tackling contest or phone booth contest.


Let's go with these guys as our primary players. If you don't really know how to rank a specific player, you can leave him out.

Javier Arenas
Jovan Belcher
Eric Berry
Brandon Carr
Glenn Dorsey
Ron Edwards
Brandon Flowers
Wallace Gilberry
Tamba Hali
Tyson Jackson
Derrick Johnson
Kendrick Lewis
Corey Mays
Jon McGraw
Shaun Smith
Andy Studebaker
Mike Vrabel
Demorrio Williams

[milkman]

Relative to thier position, I'd start with Berry, Flowers, and Dorsey.

[milkman]

After my first three, I think I'd have to go with Shaun Smith, Brandon Carr and Jovan Belcher.

[milkman]

DJ
Studebaker
Jon McGraw

[DeezNutz]

Relative to thier position, I'd start with Berry, Flowers, and Dorsey.

I think you can make a case that these are the best three, period, which ties into the Belcher/NT debate from the other thread.

We don't have a NT, though we've needed one since '09, and we need an upgrade at ILB. Will Belcher grow into this role? No clue. But it needs to be addressed in some capacity.

[milkman]

Hali
Arenas
Lewis

After that, the only relevant ranking is Edwards is last.

[Rain Man]

Relative to thier position, I'd start with Berry, Flowers, and Dorsey.


I'd definitely agree that those are the top three, and I'd agree with you that DJ is fourth.


I'd put the bottom guys as Mays (bottom) and then Hali. I think relative to outside linebackers Hali's role is to rush the passer and he's not that great at run defense. Maybe I'm basing this on his DE days too much, though. I think those are the only two guys I'd rank as weak, though, which is a long ways from the old days of Pat Thomas at MLB.

Oh, and Vrabel too, just from a speed perspective. He's down there.

Smith would be high.

Right now, I'd probably rank them as:

Eric Berry
Brandon Flowers
Glenn Dorsey
Derrick Johnson
Shaun Smith
Brandon Carr
Jovan Belcher
Jon McGraw
Wallace Gilberry (hard to judge since he generally plays only on passing downs)
Ron Edwards
Demorrio Williams
Tamba Hali
Mike Vrabel
Corey Mays

Not enough knowledge to judge.

Kendrick Lewis
Javier Arenas
Tyson Jackson
Andy Studebaker

[milkman]

I think you can make a case that these are the best three, period, which ties into the Belcher/NT debate from the other thread.

We don't have a NT, though we've needed one since '09, and we need an upgrade at ILB. Will Belcher grow into this role? No clue. But it needs to be addressed in some capacity.

I think Belcher showed good potential.

I'm in no hurry to replace him, and think that we should find out how much more progress he makes next season before we think about finding a replacement, especially given how many other positions are being manned by absolute garbage.

[milkman]

I'd definitely agree that those are the top three, and I'd agree with you that DJ is fourth.


I'd put the bottom guys as Mays (bottom) and then Hali. I think relative to outside linebackers Hali's role is to rush the passer and he's not that great at run defense. Maybe I'm basing this on his DE days too much, though. I think those are the only two guys I'd rank as weak, though, which is a long ways from the old days of Pat Thomas at MLB.

Oh, and Vrabel too, just from a speed perspective. He's down there.

Smith would be high.

Right now, I'd probably rank them as:

Eric Berry
Brandon Flowers
Glenn Dorsey
Derrick Johnson
Shaun Smith
Brandon Carr
Jovan Belcher
Jon McGraw
Wallace Gilberry (hard to judge since he generally plays only on passing downs)
Ron Edwards
Demorrio Williams
Tamba Hali
Mike Vrabel
Corey Mays

Not enough knowledge to judge.

Kendrick Lewis
Javier Arenas
Tyson Jackson
Andy Studebaker

Hali's run defense really improved substantially this season from previous seasons.

He was more well rounded than ever before, and as I said in a following post, given the NT's responsibility in this scheme, the fact that Edwards is usually taken out by single blocks, relative to his position, he is last in this ranking.

[FAX]

I'm going with the guys with the most tackles. Whoever they were.

Dorsey played okay, I think. He had some pretty good days and some not-so-good ones. DJ filled well a few times. Berry showed up on run D early and often. He was probably our best run defender given his position and other responsibilities.

I don't know if I fully understand the question, though. I'm not sure we have a consistent "run stuffer" type guy which, as I think about it, kind of pisses me off. Where was Vrabel when all this running was going on?

Obviously, the 3/4 run defense is all about the 'backers but you really shouldn't expect much when your DL isn't effectively disrupting the enemy blocking attack. I want Dan Saleaumua back.

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[FAX]

Hali's run defense really improved substantially this season from previous seasons.

He was more well rounded than ever before, and as I said in a following post, given the NT's responsibility in this scheme, the fact that Edwards is usually taken out by single blocks, relative to his position, he is last in this ranking.

The deal with Hali is that he had multiple responsibilities. If he was tackling rushers, it was because the scheme just kind of worked out that way for him on any particular play.

I wonder if our enemies demonstrated a particular tendency in terms of rushing at our defense, though. Right, left, center ... that sort of thing. I mean, did they see a weakness to exploit during the year?

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[milkman]

The deal with Hali is that he had multiple responsibilities. If he was tackling rushers, it was because the scheme just kind of worked out that way for him on any particular play.

I wonder if our enemies demonstrated a particular tendency in terms of rushing at our defense, though. Right, left, center ... that sort of thing. I mean, did they see a weakness to exploit during the year?

FAX

I'm sure there's someone who could find stats that shows a tendency, but I would venture to guess that the tendency was to run the the right (our left on defense), because Dorsey was the only guy that consistently demanded attention, and the RG and RT were consistently able to get to the second level.

[Branden Albert's Huge Balls]

DJ is a much better run defender than people give him credit for.

The dude was shedding guards and making plays all year long. He was incredible, and I think he had a better year than Belcher.

I'd go:

Dorsey
Berry
Smith
DJ
Hali
Belcher
Flowers
Carr
Edwards
Lewis
Vrabel

[Rain Man]

Hali's run defense really improved substantially this season from previous seasons.

He was more well rounded than ever before, and as I said in a following post, given the NT's responsibility in this scheme, the fact that Edwards is usually taken out by single blocks, relative to his position, he is last in this ranking.

That's fair.

Not to poach the Belcher thread, but it got me to thinking whether he's a candidate for an upgrade or not, and I thought he did fine. If we upgrade LOLB and NT, and if Lewis works out at FS, then I think Belcher may be the next upgrade, but I don't see him as an urgent replacement need, and like others have said, I think he's still ascending.

It bothers me that we can't agree on his weight, though.

[Rain Man]

I'm sure there's someone who could find stats that shows a tendency, but I would venture to guess that the tendency was to run the the right (our left on defense), because Dorsey was the only guy that consistently demanded attention, and the RG and RT were consistently able to get to the second level.

You'd think that there'd be a tendency to run wide right since Vrabel isn't that fast any more, but at the same time Smith got push and Berry was usually on that side of the field, and if they did get wide they were 100 percent likely to get tackled by Flowers.

When I think about this defense from a run perspective, it seems like we had two corners who could man up on run support and two really fast sideline to sideline guys in DJ and Berry. Dorsey and Smith seemed to hold their own at DE.

What does that mean? Up the middle may be weaker because Edwards and Belcher and DJ aren't really that big. Other than them, how do you attack a team whose weak links are at OLB and FS? Those seem like the best spots to have a weak link if you have to have one.

[patteeu]

These are the four I think do really well:

1. Derrick Johnson
2. Eric Berry
3. Brandon Flowers
4. Glenn Dorsey

I'm not smart enough to rank the rest.

[patteeu]

I'd definitely agree that those are the top three, and I'd agree with you that DJ is fourth.

I can see why DJ could be moved to 4th because of his position. I think he's the best run defender we have though.

[Rain Man]

DJ is a much better run defender than people give him credit for.

The dude was shedding guards and making plays all year long. He was incredible, and I think he had a better year than Belcher.

I'd go:

Dorsey
Berry
Smith
DJ
Hali
Belcher
Flowers
Carr
Edwards
Lewis
Vrabel


Whoa. I just noticed how low you ranked Flowers. Really? I think the guy is amazing on run defense. It's hard for me to imagine a better run-stopping corner, and the only reason I didn't rank him #1 is that Berry seems to have superhero-type closing speed.

I'm not sure I've ever seen Flowers miss a tackle.

[OnTheWarpath58]

Whoa. I just noticed how low you ranked Flowers. Really? I think the guy is amazing on run defense. It's hard for me to imagine a better run-stopping corner, and the only reason I didn't rank him #1 is that Berry seems to have superhero-type closing speed.

I'm not sure I've ever seen Flowers miss a tackle.

This.

Flowers is one of the better run-defending CB's in the league, IMO.

[Rain Man]

I can see why DJ could be moved to 4th because of his position. I think he's the best run defender we have though.

The nice thing is that the four guys you mention are all really, really good, to the point that ranking the four of them is kind of unnecessary. That's a very pleasant dilemma.


(On a side note, after 47 years of life on this earth, I'm just now learning that the word is spelled dilemma and not dilemna. I would've wagered my life that it was dilemna.)

[beach tribe]

Relative to thier position, I'd start with Berry, Flowers, and Dorsey.

Without question. These guys can flat out play the run. Berry is just unbelieveable and seemingly ascending.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

I'm pretty much of the belief that you should be drafting RBs and LBs late in almost every draft, just because it's the easiest position to learn on each respective side of the ball, and there is always a ton of surplus value in those positions relative to when the pick was made.

[Branden Albert's Huge Balls]

Whoa. I just noticed how low you ranked Flowers. Really? I think the guy is amazing on run defense. It's hard for me to imagine a better run-stopping corner, and the only reason I didn't rank him #1 is that Berry seems to have superhero-type closing speed.

I'm not sure I've ever seen Flowers miss a tackle.

I didn't really rank them according to their position, just the sheer impact they have on run defense.

[FAX]

DJ is a much better run defender than people give him credit for.

The dude was shedding guards and making plays all year long. He was incredible, ...

Some of the gifups of DJ were, in fact, incredible. When he's on his game, he can get off a block without surrendering space as well as anybody I've ever seen.

He's almost like that blue x-man with the tail and strange tattoos and weird accent. It's like he disappears, the blocker goes by, and he reappears right back in the same spot an instant later.

It's actually very impressive.

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[FAX]

This.

Flowers is one of the better run-defending CB's in the league, IMO.

He has improved each year. The thing about Flowers is that he rarely misses in space which is huge given his position and responsibilities.

If we can hang onto these guys, we should have a really good secondary for a long time.

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