PDA

View Full Version : Economics Why turn down a high-speed rail?


Direckshun
02-16-2011, 01:03 PM
Three Republican governors in the past few days shot back billions of dollars (roughly $2B a state) in federal stimulus that could have been used to build a high speed rail system in their states.

Why?

The money that is shot back gets redirected to other states anyway. The money is going to be spent on infrastructure. Why not spend it on your state?

The Florida governor argued that the money should be spent on other projects in the state. Which is fair, but is that really the deal breaker, here? That we could have used it on Project A instead of Project B? So you'll reject funds for both?

I need the many intelligent people here to set me straight. Explain why this is sensible.

mlyonsd
02-16-2011, 01:04 PM
So they can get re-elected.

Direckshun
02-16-2011, 01:05 PM
From the Washington Monthly:

The plan has been to create a $2.6 billion high-speed rail project linking Orlando and Tampa, and in time, Orlando and Miami. Nearly every penny would be funded by the federal government -- and the remaining costs would be covered by private companies vying for contracts to run the system.

The benefits to Florida's struggling economy were poised to be tremendous. Independent estimates found that the rail project would create 24,000 jobs, boost economic development, improve congestion on Florida's overburdened highways, and even help the state's environment. All Rick Scott had to do was accept the check from Washington.

Donger
02-16-2011, 01:05 PM
Three Republican governors in the past few days shot back billions of dollars (roughly $2B a state) in federal stimulus that could have been used to build a high speed rail system in their states.

Why?

The money that is shot back gets redirected to other states anyway. The money is going to be spent on infrastructure. Why not spend it on your state?

The Florida governor argued that the money should be spent on other projects in the state. Which is fair, but is that really the deal breaker, here? That we could have used it on Project A instead of Project B? So you'll reject funds for both?

I need the many intelligent people here to set me straight. Explain why this is sensible.

The governor in Florida made it clear: he was of the opinion that it would end up costing his state money.

ClevelandBronco
02-16-2011, 01:06 PM
Florida Gov. Rick Scott:

Moments ago I spoke with U.S. transportation Secretary Ray LaHood to inform him of my decision. I appreciate the secretary’s efforts to work with us and I look forward to working with him in the future.

My decision to reject the project comes down to three main economic realities:

•First – capital cost overruns from the project could put Florida taxpayers on the hook for an additional $3 billion.

•Second – ridership and revenue projections are historically overly-optimistic and would likely result in ongoing subsidies that state taxpayers would have to incur. (from $300 million – $575 million over 10 years) – Note: The state subsidizes Tri-Rail $34.6 million a year while passenger revenues covers only $10.4 million of the $64 million annual operating budget.

•Finally – if the project becomes too costly for taxpayers and is shut down, the state would have to return the $2.4 billion in federal funds to D.C.

The truth is that this project would be far too costly to taxpayers and I believe the risk far outweighs the benefits.

Direckshun
02-16-2011, 01:06 PM
So they can get re-elected.

Hmmm... I fail to see how this doesn't get your re-elected.

A huge new infrastructure project that makes commutes cheaper and easier between several gigantic cities. It will bring in revenue for the state for the conceivable future, and employs over 20,000 people.

Direckshun
02-16-2011, 01:07 PM
The governor in Florida made it clear: he was of the opinion that it would end up costing his state money.

I'm certainly not sure that would be the case.

Basically every penny is covered by the federal government, the rest being bought up by contractors.

mnchiefsguy
02-16-2011, 01:08 PM
Florida Gov. Rick Scott:

Moments ago I spoke with U.S. transportation Secretary Ray LaHood to inform him of my decision. I appreciate the secretary’s efforts to work with us and I look forward to working with him in the future.

My decision to reject the project comes down to three main economic realities:

•First – capital cost overruns from the project could put Florida taxpayers on the hook for an additional $3 billion.

•Second – ridership and revenue projections are historically overly-optimistic and would likely result in ongoing subsidies that state taxpayers would have to incur. (from $300 million – $575 million over 10 years) – Note: The state subsidizes Tri-Rail $34.6 million a year while passenger revenues covers only $10.4 million of the $64 million annual operating budget.

•Finally – if the project becomes too costly for taxpayers and is shut down, the state would have to return the $2.4 billion in federal funds to D.C.

The truth is that this project would be far too costly to taxpayers and I believe the risk far outweighs the benefits.

I think this pretty much nails it. The money looks good on its face, but when you dig deeper, the costs of the program involved far exceed the stimulus money to pay for it, and the difference would have to come from somewhere.

ClevelandBronco
02-16-2011, 01:09 PM
I'm certainly not sure that would be the case...

Maybe next time the governor of Florida will ask for your best wild ass guess.

Direckshun
02-16-2011, 01:10 PM
Maybe next time the governor of Florida will ask for your best wild ass guess.

Where's the extra $3 billion come from? And why wouldn't it be covered by any number of private contractors taking the job?

Competitive corporate outsourcing! Right out of the GOP playbook. C'mon now.

DaKCMan AP
02-16-2011, 01:10 PM
Rick Scott is a crook and a gigantic douche. Still can't believe he's the governor. :doh!:

ClevelandBronco
02-16-2011, 01:12 PM
Where's the extra $3 billion come from? And why wouldn't it be covered by any number of private contractors taking the job?

http://www.flgov.com/contact-gov-scott/email-the-governor/

alnorth
02-16-2011, 01:13 PM
Outside of maybe Japan, high-speed rail is almost never break-even. Sure, maybe it would be built nearly free or maybe have some cost overrun, but Florida would be saddled with a permanent need to subsidize a method of transportation that no one would want to use.

Honestly, I think the only area of our vast sprawling country that this might work is in a few areas on the east coast, and even then I doubt it will completely break-even in the long run.

BucEyedPea
02-16-2011, 01:15 PM
Rick Scott is a crook and a gigantic douche. Still can't believe he's the governor. :doh!:

Oh my! :shake: I like what he said on the rail issue. I don't want to pay for it.

Direckshun
02-16-2011, 01:16 PM
http://www.flgov.com/contact-gov-scott/email-the-governor/

Thanks. I was almost under the assumption this was a political forum for conversations amongst citizens.

Direckshun
02-16-2011, 01:17 PM
Outside of maybe Japan, high-speed rail is almost never break-even. Sure, maybe it would be built nearly free or maybe have some cost overrun, but Florida would be saddled with a permanent need to subsidize a method of transportation that no one would want to use.

Then why would this project be introduced in the long run? It's confusing.

Edit: Wait. I forgot the email the governor of Florida with my query. Sorry.

Chief Henry
02-16-2011, 01:18 PM
Why would the Florida Gov. not accept the money ?

How about Fiscal responsibility. Its called leadership.

Donger
02-16-2011, 01:18 PM
Threads like these would be so much more efficient if Direckshun would just tell us what she wants to say in the OP.

ClevelandBronco
02-16-2011, 01:18 PM
Thanks. I was almost under the assumption this was a political forum for conversations amongst citizens.

If you want bullshit answers to your questions, you've certainly come to the right place.

chiefsnorth
02-16-2011, 01:18 PM
Because the cost is astronomical and it won't get used. It offers zero - zero - advantages over air travel, and would cost an incalculable sum to make viable.

Just because rail works on a city scale or when heavily subsidized as a money loser in small countries doesn't mean it gives any value to us.

Most people are not dipshits and thus this is self-evident

ClevelandBronco
02-16-2011, 01:19 PM
Why would the Florida Gov. not accept the money ?

How about Fiscal responsibility. Its called leadership.

Florida Gov. Rick Scott:

Moments ago I spoke with U.S. transportation Secretary Ray LaHood to inform him of my decision. I appreciate the secretary’s efforts to work with us and I look forward to working with him in the future.

My decision to reject the project comes down to three main economic realities:

•First – capital cost overruns from the project could put Florida taxpayers on the hook for an additional $3 billion.

•Second – ridership and revenue projections are historically overly-optimistic and would likely result in ongoing subsidies that state taxpayers would have to incur. (from $300 million – $575 million over 10 years) – Note: The state subsidizes Tri-Rail $34.6 million a year while passenger revenues covers only $10.4 million of the $64 million annual operating budget.

•Finally – if the project becomes too costly for taxpayers and is shut down, the state would have to return the $2.4 billion in federal funds to D.C.

The truth is that this project would be far too costly to taxpayers and I believe the risk far outweighs the benefits.

Direckshun
02-16-2011, 01:20 PM
If you want bullshit answers to your questions, you've certainly come to the right place.

Isn't that why you come here?

ClevelandBronco
02-16-2011, 01:21 PM
Isn't that why you come here?

I come here when I want a break from sanity.

Bill Parcells
02-16-2011, 01:24 PM
Dude, we have high speed trains here in the northeast that cant go as fast as they can because there are too many turns on the tracks. the acela xpress can fly, but it doesnt until you reach RI.

Our rail system was not built for high speed trains. you will have high speed trains going slow (or normal speed) so they wont derail.

You know how stoopid your hero is for bringing this up? this is his top priority?

Direckshun
02-16-2011, 01:30 PM
I come here when I want a break from sanity.

Welcome.

Otter
02-16-2011, 01:31 PM
It makes sense because it's a symbolic way of saying "get you're priorities straight you stupid ****ing pea brain of a president. The nation is broke and your putting a train as a top priority? Take back your money an go **** yourself you idiot waste of flesh".

That's my take.

DaKCMan AP
02-16-2011, 01:35 PM
Oh my! :shake: I like what he said on the rail issue. I don't want to pay for it.

I don't like the rail either. It's expensive, isn't state-of-the-art, and won't get used. I was just making a general comment about Scott.

BucEyedPea
02-16-2011, 01:37 PM
Cool!

ClevelandBronco
02-16-2011, 01:41 PM
Welcome.

<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/D8YpOM7LVew" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

patteeu
02-16-2011, 01:49 PM
Outside of maybe Japan, high-speed rail is almost never break-even. Sure, maybe it would be built nearly free or maybe have some cost overrun, but Florida would be saddled with a permanent need to subsidize a method of transportation that no one would want to use.

Honestly, I think the only area of our vast sprawling country that this might work is in a few areas on the east coast, and even then I doubt it will completely break-even in the long run.

I agree with all of those, like alnorth, saying that he's rejecting the project because it will cost his state too much money. Even if the federal government covers all the construction costs (which is highly unlikely), the chances of it being self-sufficient are practically zero so there will be an ongoing cost to the state for maintenance and operations. And a decade from now when the state finally decides that it would really like to get out of the money-pit train business, there will be an entrenched, highly motivated special interest fighting against the loss of jobs that would result.

If the smack dealer is willing to give you a few free samples up front so you can enjoy a recreational high, why would you turn him down?

Taco John
02-16-2011, 02:02 PM
If the smack dealer is willing to give you a few free samples up front so you can enjoy a recreational high, why would you turn him down?


It's even worse than that. The smack dealer is embedding a permanent smack dispenser into your biological person for "free." All he needs to to is raise your taxes so that he can afford it.

KC Dan
02-16-2011, 02:05 PM
These Gov's have it right. Ridership wouldn't be high enough to support and cost overruns would kill the states. Has anyone ever heard of "The Big Dig"?

BucEyedPea
02-16-2011, 02:37 PM
These Gov's have it right. Ridership wouldn't be high enough to support and cost overruns would kill the states. Has anyone ever heard of "The Big Dig"?

Yup! Whattamess! If I recall I thought I heard it even sprung a leak or there were a few things wrong with it.

KC Dan
02-16-2011, 02:48 PM
Yup! Whattamess! If I recall I thought I heard it even sprung a leak or there were a few things wrong with it.Yep, I was up there when the bigger of the leaks occurred and failing debris killed a lady in a car.

Chiefshrink
02-16-2011, 03:02 PM
Three Republican governors in the past few days shot back billions of dollars (roughly $2B a state) in federal stimulus that could have been used to build a high speed rail system in their states.

Why?

The money that is shot back gets redirected to other states anyway. The money is going to be spent on infrastructure. Why not spend it on your state?

The Florida governor argued that the money should be spent on other projects in the state. Which is fair, but is that really the deal breaker, here? That we could have used it on Project A instead of Project B? So you'll reject funds for both?

I need the many intelligent people here to set me straight. Explain why this is sensible.

It's obvious you didn't notice any tea parties this last year and half not to mention an ass-kicking this last Nov. If those Governors accept our "We The People"'s $$ when "We The People" said 'STOP THE F'N SPENDING' as mylon said they get kicked out of office!!

Your political acumen leaves alot to be desired but that is not surprising since most Marxists think $$ grows on trees:thumb:

alnorth
02-16-2011, 03:15 PM
bad economics aside, I'm not against high-speed rail in the abstract. It would be a neat mode of transportation, and if I needed to get from one point to another that was directly serviced I might take the high-speed train instead of an airplane.

Also, I'm not against the concept of sometimes subsidizing something that is not self-sufficient if it will provide a very significant non-monetary benefit to society.

In this case though, the cost is horrifying, and the "this sounds cool, I might use one someday" abstract benefit doesn't outweigh the cost in my mind for most cases. If there's an isolated case where there's heavy need, the roads are clogged, and the use of trains is pretty much culturally accepted (New York?), then cool.

KC Dan
02-16-2011, 03:18 PM
bad economics aside, I'm not against high-speed rail in the abstract. It would be a neat mode of transportation, and if I needed to get from one point to another that was directly serviced I might take the high-speed train instead of an airplane.

Also, I'm not against the concept of sometimes subsidizing something that is not self-sufficient if it will provide a very significant non-monetary benefit to society.

In this case though, the cost is horrifying, and the "this sounds cool, I might use one someday" abstract benefit doesn't outweigh the cost in my mind for most cases. If there's isolated case where there's heavy need, the roads or clogged, and the use of trains is pretty much culturally accepted (New York?), then cool.You know I travel around the world all the time for work and I absolutely love the Japanese train systems. They are efficient, fairly cheap and get you wherever you need to go quickly. Other countries are ok but not so worthwhile. I do like the two hour train ride from London to Brussels. However, I am not naive enough to think that Americans would gravitate to such a system as in Japan. We love our cars too much and the cost of building such a system like Japan's today would be astronomical

Garcia Bronco
02-16-2011, 04:13 PM
The lightrail in Denver is the same way. If they actually charged people what it cost to ride; they'd realize a car with gas and insurance is cheaper or break even.

VAChief
02-16-2011, 04:21 PM
Why would the Florida Gov. not accept the money ?

How about Fiscal responsibility. Its called leadership.

Rick Scott is a master at Medicare Fraud. I guess he figured he couldn't personally profit from this venture, or maybe he is just waiting for a more lucrative bribe. Douche is being kind with this charlatan.

mlyonsd
02-16-2011, 04:48 PM
It's a total republican conspiracy for 2012. Give the illusion you're the grownups in the room. I say illusion because republicans have to prove a lot more to me they are serious about our debt before I praise them.

Meanwhile democrats are stumbling around pretending the 2010 election was a fluke.

mnchiefsguy
02-16-2011, 08:17 PM
The lightrail in Denver is the same way. If they actually charged people what it cost to ride; they'd realize a car with gas and insurance is cheaper or break even.

The same is true for Minneapolis/St. Paul. The state of MN subsidies the fees for the ridership to keep the costs down, last time I read a figure for that it was around $2.50 a rider.

chiefsnorth
02-16-2011, 08:26 PM
The same is true for Minneapolis/St. Paul. The state of MN subsidies the fees for the ridership to keep the costs down, last time I read a figure for that it was around $2.50 a rider.

You in the metro?

mnchiefsguy
02-16-2011, 10:57 PM
You in the metro?

Not anymore. Lived there for about ten years, my wife is from there. We moved back to Kansas City in 2008.

Otter
02-17-2011, 07:49 AM
Just when the country needed a leader most we get black jimmy carter and his unfulfilled child hood dreams of being a choo-choo train conductor.

WV
02-17-2011, 08:10 AM
Government priorities are hilarious. Let's cut our govt workforce, cut the Dept of Ed, cut Medicare and Social Security.........but ohh ohh, let's continue to send billions to shit holes like Egypt and yeah here's a couple billion for a freaking high speed train.

Jaric
02-17-2011, 08:19 AM
The same reason I haven't bought the Indianapolis Colts.

I can't afford it.

blaise
02-17-2011, 08:38 AM
I wanted to give my friend a pet puppy. I explained how it was paid for and that it was really cute and neat, but he didn't want it for some reason.

LOCOChief
02-17-2011, 08:54 AM
Rick Scott is a crook and a gigantic douche. Still can't believe he's the governor. :doh!:

I'm soooo glad he is the governor of my state and not that pos Charlie Crist.


High speed rail? What a bunch of shit. There's probably not a politician out there that's not a crook or a gigantic douche for that matter, maybe the exception is Chris Christie, but at least Scott's not a dumbass and has some business / fiscal savvy unlike Crist.

DaKCMan AP
02-17-2011, 08:59 AM
I'm soooo glad he is the governor of my state and not that pos Charlie Crist.


High speed rail? What a bunch of shit. There's probably not a politician out there that's not a crook or a gigantic douche for that matter, maybe the exception is Chris Christie, but at least Scott's not a dumbass and has some business / fiscal savvy unlike Crist.

Describing Scott as a crook is an understatement. Largest Medicaid fraud ever. At the time, the largest fraud settlement in US history.

Brock
02-17-2011, 09:02 AM
I wanted to give my friend a pet puppy. I explained how it was paid for and that it was really cute and neat, but he didn't want it for some reason.

Think of the jobs that would have been created by that poop machine.

LOCOChief
02-17-2011, 09:05 AM
Describing Scott as a crook is an understatement. Largest Medicaid fraud ever. At the time, the largest fraud settlement in US history.



If that were true and not just liberal spin he'd be in prison right now. It's not just the tax code that needs to be simplified and there is a huge difference between a mistake and fraud.

DaKCMan AP
02-17-2011, 09:32 AM
If that were true and not just liberal spin he'd be in prison right now. It's not just the tax code that needs to be simplified and there is a huge difference between a mistake and fraud.

ROFL

What fairytale land are you living in?

It was fraud, not a mistake.

In settlements reached in 2000 and 2002, Columbia/HCA plead guilty to 14 felonies and agreed to a $600+ million fine in the largest fraud settlement in US history. Columbia/HCA admitted systematically overcharging the government by claiming marketing costs as reimbursable, by striking illegal deals with home care agencies, and by filing false data about use of hospital space. They also admitted fraudulently billing Medicare and other health programs by inflating the seriousness of diagnoses and to giving doctors partnerships in company hospitals as a kickback for the doctors referring patients to HCA. They filed false cost reports, fraudulently billing Medicare for home health care workers, and paid kickbacks in the sale of home health agencies and to doctors to refer patients. In addition, they gave doctors "loans" never intending to be repaid, free rent, free office furniture, and free drugs from hospital pharmacies.

In late 2002, HCA agreed to pay the U.S. government $631 million, plus interest, and pay $17.5 million to state Medicaid agencies, in addition to $250 million paid up to that point to resolve outstanding Medicare expense claims. In all, civil law suits cost HCA more than $2 billion to settle, by far the largest fraud settlement in US history.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rick_Scott#Columbia.2FHCA_fraud_case_details

BucEyedPea
02-17-2011, 01:57 PM
I'm soooo glad he is the governor of my state and not that pos Charlie Crist.


High speed rail? What a bunch of shit. There's probably not a politician out there that's not a crook or a gigantic douche for that matter, maybe the exception is Chris Christie, but at least Scott's not a dumbass and has some business / fiscal savvy unlike Crist.

I took over Christ too. What choice was there really?

Mr. Kotter
02-17-2011, 02:50 PM
Public transportation loses too much money.

A skeletal system is necessary, especially in some parts of the country--but they need to be bare bones.

Otherwise, taxpayers subsidize these money-losing-and-hoarding projects for a long time past and after incentive funds have run out. They are "black holes" for taxpayers.

redsurfer11
02-17-2011, 04:04 PM
Three Republican governors in the past few days shot back billions of dollars (roughly $2B a state) in federal stimulus that could have been used to build a high speed rail system in their states.

Why?

The money that is shot back gets redirected to other states anyway. The money is going to be spent on infrastructure. Why not spend it on your state?

The Florida governor argued that the money should be spent on other projects in the state. Which is fair, but is that really the deal breaker, here? That we could have used it on Project A instead of Project B? So you'll reject funds for both?

I need the many intelligent people here to set me straight. Explain why this is sensible.



How much of a Success is AMTRACK? $13,000,000,000.00 in debt. Are you straight yet? This project was to feed the UNIONS only.

HonestChieffan
02-17-2011, 06:31 PM
Three Republican governors in the past few days shot back billions of dollars (roughly $2B a state) in federal stimulus that could have been used to build a high speed rail system in their states.

Why?

The money that is shot back gets redirected to other states anyway. The money is going to be spent on infrastructure. Why not spend it on your state?

The Florida governor argued that the money should be spent on other projects in the state. Which is fair, but is that really the deal breaker, here? That we could have used it on Project A instead of Project B? So you'll reject funds for both?

I need the many intelligent people here to set me straight. Explain why this is sensible.

It its called principals. Some folks have them. Some never will.

patteeu
02-17-2011, 07:00 PM
So, what are your thoughts now that you've read ours, Direckshun?

Mr. Kotter
02-17-2011, 08:49 PM
So, what are your thoughts now that you've read ours, Direckshun?

Because, he has nothing substantive to offer. Maybe one of the few things we can agree on...heh.

:)

AndChiefs
02-17-2011, 08:54 PM
It its called principals. Some folks have them. Some never will.

Who needs principals anyways...all they do is administer stuff and enforce rules. Maybe if people had principles things would be different.

HonestChieffan
02-17-2011, 08:56 PM
Who needs principals anyways...all they do is administer stuff and enforce rules. Maybe if people had principles things would be different.

Well done.

ROYC75
02-17-2011, 08:57 PM
Hmmm... I fail to see how this doesn't get your re-elected.

A huge new infrastructure project that makes commutes cheaper and easier between several gigantic cities. It will bring in revenue for the state for the conceivable future, and employs over 20,000 people.

Yep, Amtrak is doing sooooo well. Plus you figure in the massive debt to build it, everybody like me and others who never use it will pay for it. Just so a few select High Brow Crowd, Upstate, Downtown,snobs can get around quicker on somebody's dime.

Plus the land they need to build such a line will be bought from people who do not want to give up their land. But our government can force you to sell at the price they want to move you out.

That's just great liberal thinking there.

AndChiefs
02-17-2011, 09:02 PM
Well done.

:)

Just messing with you.

HonestChieffan
02-17-2011, 09:03 PM
:)

Just messing with you.

Nooo, good catch. I'm married to an English Teacher. I should check my work.

Mr. Kotter
02-17-2011, 09:30 PM
Nooo, good catch. I'm married to an English Teacher. I should check my work.

:spock:

An English teacher, really? :spock:

I hope you don't show her the stuff you post here....sometimes it's "okay," I suppose.

But, frankly, given some of the drivel/SPAM you post here...as a matter of professionalism and principle....I hope you don't mind my sayin', she SHOULD kick your azz. Big time. Seriously.

The thing is, I'd bet she would and could too. Just sayin'....heh. ;)

HonestChieffan
02-17-2011, 09:34 PM
:spock:

An English teacher, really? :spock:

I hope you don't show her the stuff you post here....sometimes it's "okay," I suppose.

But, frankly, given some of the drivel/SPAM you post here...as a matter of professionalism and principle....I hope you don't mind my sayin', she SHOULD kick your azz. Big time. Seriously.

The thing is, I'd bet she would and could too. Just sayin'....heh. ;)

after 36 years, i let her win

alnorth
02-17-2011, 09:37 PM
:spock:

An English teacher, really? :spock:

I hope you don't show her the stuff you post here....sometimes it's "okay," I suppose.

But, frankly, given some of the drivel/SPAM you post here...as a matter of professionalism and principle....I hope you don't mind my sayin', she SHOULD kick your azz. Big time. Seriously.

The thing is, I'd bet she would and could too. Just sayin'....heh. ;)

since many of us dont have the time to waste reading all of these long-winded posts, I'll boil this one down as a public service. The message that Mr. Kotter was trying to convey towards the poster known as HonestChieffan was:

"haha, your posting sucks!"

alnorth
02-17-2011, 09:37 PM
after 36 years, i let her win

aw, crap you beat me to it

Mr. Kotter
02-17-2011, 09:47 PM
since many of us dont have the time to waste reading all of these long-winded posts, I'll boil this one down as a public service. The message that Mr. Kotter was trying to convey towards the poster known as HonestChieffan was:

"haha, your posting sucks!"

Nope; not at all...actually, I agree with him more than you might think.

It's just that....he gets lazy, and still tries to pull the "elite" card on occasion. And that's awkward, at times.

HCF, is a decent poster....but our disagreements don't allow me to give him too much credit. Just sayin'... ;)

Mr. Kotter
02-17-2011, 09:49 PM
after 36 years, i let her win

As someone who is 22 years there....I can relate. But, yeah...I'm already letting her "win," so I'm a puss, I suppose. Heh.