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Chief Henry
02-17-2011, 05:53 PM
They left the state of Ws. so they would not be forced to vote on some legislation. ROFL

orange
02-17-2011, 05:59 PM
Maybe they're in the crowd.

http://www.ieanea.org/media/2011/02/WI-Rally.jpg

Bowser
02-17-2011, 06:04 PM
wut

Chief Henry
02-17-2011, 06:05 PM
They were in Rockford, Il...They jsut left the Rockford, Il hotel they were staying at.

I wonder how many of tose people in your picture were bused in ? Its been done before
by the union thugs of SEIU.

Bewbies
02-17-2011, 06:36 PM
What's going on in Wisky is a BIG, BIG deal.

SNR
02-17-2011, 06:41 PM
I live in Madison. I'm sure it wouldn't be that big of a deal if they had some kind of warning and were able to put it up for discussion before taking a vote.

I really don't like the circumstances under which this measure was put through. Republicans like to claim that Democrats pushed through healthcare. Now Wisconsin state Republicans are doing the exact same thing with this CBA deal.

I know Madison's as liberal of a town as they get, but I really don't see anybody supporting this. Republicans are mixed and all Democrats are against this measure.

SNR
02-17-2011, 06:45 PM
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-02-17/public-employee-union-protests-spread-from-wisconsin-to-ohio.html


Public Employee Protests Spread From Wisconsin to Ohio
By Mark Niquette - Feb 17, 2011 4:07 PM CT



In Madison, Wisconsin, crowds police estimated at 25,000 engulfed the Capitol and its lawns during a third day of protests as Democratic state senators boycotted the legislative session. In Columbus, Ohio, about 3,800 state workers, teachers and other public employees came to the statehouse.

Firefighters Dave Hefflinger and Jerry Greer stood near hundreds of workers elbow-to-elbow in the statehouse atrium and listened to a Senate hearing through speakers. Chants of “Kill the bill” echoed.

“We’re here to support our brothers and sisters,” Hefflinger, a 27-year veteran, said in an interview. “They’re trying to take away what we fought for all of these years.”

Hefflinger, 49, and Greer, 39, members of the department in Findlay, Ohio, drove two hours south to protest the bill. The measure would eliminate collective bargaining for state workers, prevent local-government employees from negotiating for health insurance and would eliminate binding arbitration in the case of an impasse. It would replace salary schedules with merit pay.

With states facing deficits that may reach a combined $125 billion next year, Republican governors and legislatures in states including Wisconsin, Ohio and New Jersey are targeting collective bargaining to give governments more flexibility to control costs.

Wisconsin Walkouts

In Wisconsin, Republican Governor Scott Walker championed a bill that would make public workers bargain for wages alone and require them to pay 5.6 percent of their pension costs and 12 percent of their health-care premiums, up from 6 percent. Police and firefighters wouldn’t be covered by the measure.

Today, University of Wisconsin-Madison students walked out of classes at the urging of student government and campus newspapers and marched to the Capitol. There, they joined protesters who filled the rotunda to chant, bang drums and sing, and spilled onto the lawn.

The protesters ranged from retired autoworkers with Veterans of Foreign Wars caps to Madison high-school students whose classes were canceled for a second-straight day after nearly half of public-school teachers called in sick to protest.

“We’re here because Walker is doing the stupidest thing you could ever do,” said Clara Katz-Andrade, a 15-year-old high school sophomore who had come to support local teachers. “Eventually it will affect everybody, like students.” [Thanks for the 15-year old perspective, Bloomberg :spock: ]

‘Ideological Battle’

In a telephone interview yesterday, Walker said he spoke with Ohio’s Republican Governor John Kasich by telephone.

“Don’t blink,” Walker said when asked what advice he gave Kasich about demonstrations. ”The bottom line is, it’s the right thing to do.”

The bills are part of an attempt to weaken public-employee unions, said John Russo, a professor and co-director of the Center for Working-Class Studies at Youngstown State University in Ohio.

“It’s really an ideological battle that’s being fought across the country right now,” Russo said in an interview while waiting to testify before the Ohio Senate Insurance, Commerce and Labor Committee. The panel held its third hearing on the bill.

There were 45 witnesses scheduled to testify, and Chairman Kevin Bacon said the committee would hear them without a lunch break.

“It’s going to be a long day and possibly night,” Bacon said. “This is a true test of democracy.”

Biggest Crowd

Boos outside the hearing room were audible after Richard Seas, superintendent of the Coldwater Exempted School District in western Ohio, told the committee, “I truly feel as if my hands are tied” by collective-bargaining requirements.

The Statehouse spokesman, Gregg Dodd, estimated the crowd at about 3,800 and said it was the largest gathering inside the statehouse since it was renovated in 1996.

Mixing with the protesters were members of Ohio Tea Party groups who staged their own rally in support of the legislation.

Mike Wilson, who founded the Cincinnati Tea Party, said the bill isn’t an effort to break unions but to restore balance between government and public workers, who he said are overpaid.

“This bill is not on attack on public employees; it is not an attack on the middle class,” Wilson, 34, a technology consultant, said at the rally. “This bill is about math.”

Joe Rugola, the former president of the Ohio AFL-CIO who also is executive director of the Ohio Association of Public School Employees, said he represents bus drivers and janitors who earn about $24,000 a year.

“I’m still looking for this privileged class of workers,” Rugola said in an interview while waiting to testify. “This is just part of a national attack on working people.”

mlyonsd
02-17-2011, 07:19 PM
Global economy finally hitting people sucking off the government teet.

I wonder how many of the protesters shop at Wal-Mart.

petegz28
02-17-2011, 07:21 PM
I'm sorry, this is immature. Running away and refusing to vote simply because you know you are going to lose.

petegz28
02-17-2011, 07:23 PM
So instead of acting like adults they run off to a resort on the tax payer dime!! LMAO

And why were students bused in for the protest?

HonestChieffan
02-17-2011, 07:23 PM
Gotta love it. The teachers pay in 5% and demand they pay no more. Time for a reckoning. Break the unions and get things back to self funded.

alnorth
02-17-2011, 07:28 PM
I really don't like the circumstances under which this measure was put through. Republicans like to claim that Democrats pushed through healthcare. Now Wisconsin state Republicans are doing the exact same thing with this CBA deal.

No, one of the stupidest things one could do is allow government employees to unionize. THAT is one of the most idiotic things many of the states ever did.

Its not like this was a surprise, the newly-elected governor was apparently quite outspoken about fighting the unions, and the people of Wisconsin responded by electing him and handing the legislature over to the republicans. I'd say the people are getting what they asked for.

If the dems do not come back to do the right thing, then the governor should carry out his threat to fire/lay off 6,000 union employees.

patteeu
02-17-2011, 07:28 PM
They were in Rockford, Il...They jsut left the Rockford, Il hotel they were staying at.

I wonder how many of tose people in your picture were bused in ? Its been done before
by the union thugs of SEIU.

A bunch of them are teachers who called in sick so they could protest on behalf of their union. Several schools had to close their doors because of the absences. Holy moly. I kept waiting for someone to post this thread. It's a fascinating situation.

dirk digler
02-17-2011, 07:41 PM
Global economy finally hitting people sucking off the government teet.

I wonder how many of the protesters shop at Wal-Mart.

They had a contract with the government so why should they get screwed?

mlyonsd
02-17-2011, 07:50 PM
They had a contract with the government so why should they get screwed?

FTR I'm not saying they should be. I'm just commenting on how the trickle down global economy first hit our country's worker bee's and is now finally filtering down to the government working class.

They're like WTF? We're above everyone else. Like they shouldn't pay the consequences for shopping at Wal-Mart.

SNR
02-17-2011, 07:51 PM
No, one of the stupidest things one could do is allow government employees to unionize. THAT is one of the most idiotic things many of the states ever did.

Its not like this was a surprise, Obama was quite outspoken about a new healthcare bill, and the people of the United States responded by electing him and handing the legislature over to the Democrats. I'd say the people are getting what they asked for.

If the dems do not come back to do the right thing, then the governor should carry out his threat to fire/lay off 6,000 union employees.FYP.

Sorry, but if the Democrats were dishonest about the healthcare bill, then this story in Wisconsin is no different for the Republicans. It's the same tactic. Whether that's good or bad is another discussion.

petegz28
02-17-2011, 07:51 PM
They had a contract with the government so why should they get screwed?

You mean like the bond holders of GM that got screwed?

alnorth
02-17-2011, 07:54 PM
They had a contract with the government so why should they get screwed?

Their contract has expired. They were given a required 30-day notice that the state would no longer abide by the terms of the expired contract. Government employees cant collectively bargain under a union unless the state (idiotically) allows it.

I've got no problem with ending collective bargaining with government workers. It makes sense in the private sector when you have a true adversarial relationship where management has to keep an eye on the health of the company. It makes no sense when politicians, many elected with the help of union money, "bargain" without having to care about whether the taxpayers can afford it.

If they don't like it, they can quit. (or get laid off)

gblowfish
02-17-2011, 07:54 PM
What's so crazy about wanting to get the Hell out of Wisconsin in the middle of February?

SNR
02-17-2011, 07:56 PM
A bunch of them are teachers who called in sick so they could protest on behalf of their union. Several schools had to close their doors because of the absences. Holy moly. I kept waiting for someone to post this thread. It's a fascinating situation.E-mails were sent to UW Madison faculty and students telling them to proceed with classes as usual. I didn't have to teach anything today, but all of the colleagues I know who vote Democrat kept classes going as usual, and many of them said they had nearly full attendance.

It's a rise about how academic funding will be slashed by extraordinary amounts. I'm really not that worried, though.

dirk digler
02-17-2011, 07:56 PM
FTR I'm not saying they should be. I'm just commenting on how the trickle down global economy first hit our country's worker bee's and is now finally filtering down to the government working class.

They're like WTF? We're above everyone else. Like they shouldn't pay the consequences for shopping at Wal-Mart.

I don't have a problem with wages been frozen but I think what they are extremely pissed about is the bill basically stripping them of collective bargaining rights. And they should be.

alnorth
02-17-2011, 07:57 PM
FYP.

Sorry, but if the Democrats were dishonest about the healthcare bill, then this story in Wisconsin is no different for the Republicans. It's the same tactic. Whether that's good or bad is another discussion.

You must have me confused with some nutwing screaming about "Obama ramming health care down our throats". I admit some people were throwing out that hysterical complaint, but not me.

Health care was a major, major issue in the election and he made it clear he wanted universal coverage. The people responded by electing him and a gigantic senate majority. No one should have been surprised by the resulting legislation.

SNR
02-17-2011, 07:58 PM
You must have me confused with some nutwing screaming about "Obama ramming health care down our throats". I admit some people were throwing out that hysterical complaint, but not me.

Health care was a major, major issue in the election and he made it clear he wanted universal coverage. The people responded by electing him and a gigantic senate majority. No one should have been surprised by the resulting legislation.Sorry. I forgot that you're usually one of the more level-headed people around this forum.

HonestChieffan
02-17-2011, 08:04 PM
Teachers behaving worse than 5 year olds.


<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="640" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/71gsnLfsbbM" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>


"In addition to eliminating collective-bargaining rights, the legislation also would make public workers pay half the costs of their pensions and at least 12.6 percent of their health care coverage — increases Walker calls "modest" compared with those in the private sector.
Republican leaders said they expected Wisconsin residents would be pleased with the savings the bill would achieve — $30 million by July 1 and $300 million over the next two years to address a $3.6 billion budget shortfall.
"I think the taxpayers will support this idea," Fitzgerald said.
Wisconsin has long been a bastion for workers' rights. But when voters elected Walker, an outspoken conservative, along with GOP majorities in both legislative chambers, it set the stage for a dramatic reversal of the state's labor history.
Under Walker's plan, state employees' share of pension and health care costs would go up by an average of 8 percent.
Unions still could represent workers, but could not seek pay increases above those pegged to the Consumer Price Index unless approved by a public referendum. Unions also could not force employees to pay dues and would have to hold annual votes to stay organized.
In exchange for bearing more costs and losing bargaining leverage, public employees were promised no furloughs or layoffs. Walker has threatened to order layoffs of up to 6,000 state workers if the measure does not pass."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110217/ap_on_re_us/us_wisconsin_budget_unions

alnorth
02-17-2011, 08:09 PM
In another month they will officially no longer have a contract. If the dems don't want to come back, start firing the union workers. The governor seems to have all the leverage here, bill or no bill.

patteeu
02-17-2011, 08:11 PM
FYP.

Sorry, but if the Democrats were dishonest about the healthcare bill, then this story in Wisconsin is no different for the Republicans. It's the same tactic. Whether that's good or bad is another discussion.

What are the similarities? Are they going to pass something with a simple majority that would normally take a 60% majority?

dirk digler
02-17-2011, 08:12 PM
In another month they will officially no longer have a contract. If the dems don't want to come back, start firing the union workers. The governor seems to have all the leverage here, bill or no bill.

So they have a contract or not a contract? I have read the state government union contracts expired in 2009. Is that correct?

patteeu
02-17-2011, 08:15 PM
I don't have a problem with wages been frozen but I think what they are extremely pissed about is the bill basically stripping them of collective bargaining rights. And they should be.

Why should they be? alnorth explained why collective bargaining shouldn't be allowed for public employee unions. If they want a strong union job, the should look into private sector employment.

LaDairis
02-17-2011, 08:15 PM
They left the state of Ws. so they would not be forced to vote on some legislation. ROFL



LOL!!!

Realizing the insanity of government employee union pay and retirement, some actual CONSERVATIVES are trying to BAN public education bureaucrats from unionizing.

Which is precisely the type of CONSERVATISM rejected 100% by the kinswervitv W en hs spprtrs...

alnorth
02-17-2011, 08:17 PM
What are the similarities? Are they going to pass something with a simple majority that would normally take a 60% majority?

:spock:

Senate Vote #396 in 2009 - H.R. 3590 [111th]: Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act

yay - 60
nay - 39
NV - 1

alnorth
02-17-2011, 08:18 PM
So they have a contract or not a contract? I have read the state government union contracts expired in 2009. Is that correct?

contract expired a while ago. They continued to operate under the terms of that contract. The state has to give a 30-day notice to stop. They did that a few days ago. In March there will be no contract.

dirk digler
02-17-2011, 08:20 PM
Why should they be? alnorth explained why collective bargaining shouldn't be allowed for public employee unions. If they want a strong union job, the should look into private sector employment.

Because there are so many good private sector firefighter and police jobs. ;)

HonestChieffan
02-17-2011, 09:07 PM
Wisconsin hate rally pictures:

http://directorblue.blogspot.com/2011/02/top-15-photos-from-wisconsin-hate.html

SNR
02-17-2011, 09:11 PM
I found the Left's version of sportsshrink

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-kJw4NWsjTgk/TV3UP3Fs9zI/AAAAAAAAj2M/8tZ3R-tIWL4/s1600/110217-wi-138.jpg

Dallas Chief
02-17-2011, 09:14 PM
Because there are so many good private sector firefighter and police jobs. ;)

Did I read the Bloomberg article that SNR posted incorrectly? I thought the police and firefighers were not going to be affected by this legislation.

ClevelandBronco
02-17-2011, 09:16 PM
You must have me confused with some nutwing screaming about "Obama ramming health care down our throats". I admit some people were throwing out that hysterical complaint, but not me.

Health care was a major, major issue in the election and he made it clear he wanted universal coverage. The people responded by electing him and a gigantic senate majority. No one should have been surprised by the resulting legislation.

I think the people who were expecting universal coverage were surprised as hell that what they got was pork for the insurance companies.

alnorth
02-17-2011, 09:18 PM
I think the people who were expecting universal coverage were surprised as hell that what they got was pork for the insurance companies.

Unless you expected private insurance to be abolished, replaced by government care, I don't see why.

The insurance companies probably also need to be informed of the pork, given their opposition.

alnorth
02-17-2011, 09:20 PM
Did I read the Bloomberg article that SNR posted incorrectly? I thought the police and firefighers were not going to be affected by this legislation.

unfortunately, Republicans have a soft spot for police and firefighters. Don't get me wrong, they do great work, but sometimes republicans will allow police and firefighter unions to get away with murder.

If you are going to take a very harsh stance against the excesses of other government unions, its not really fair to completely shelter police and firefighters from any sacrifice. Thats one of my only criticisms of the situation, if the situation really is this dire (it probably is) then share the pain. Don't make teachers and cubicle workers shoulder everything.

ClevelandBronco
02-17-2011, 09:20 PM
Unless you expected private insurance to be abolished, replaced by government care, I don't see why.

The insurance companies probably also need to be informed of the pork, given their opposition.

Dude, I didn't say that I was surprised.

LaDairis
02-18-2011, 06:39 AM
"but sometimes republicans will allow police and firefighter unions to get away with murder."



More precisely, some kinswervitvs use police to murder their critics... San Diego being one such place.

Amnorix
02-18-2011, 07:26 AM
I just saw the article in the WSJ and came on here to post it if no one had. No surprise that I was beaten to it.

I'd like to mention, first, that absent some truly extraordinary conditions, which I don't think exist here, the concept of legislators abandoning their posts to deny quorum in order to block legislation is deplorable.

Second, I applaud the efforts of the Republicans in this instance to curb the runaway benefits of state workers.

If what is going on in Wisconsin is replicated around the country, we may finally begin to fix some of our nightmarish high fixed cost issues in the public employment sector.

I'm beginning to think I will be voting Republican in 2012. Certainly Scott Brown can easily enough earn my vote depending on the circumstances.

The really disturbing thing there is that i may vote for the same candidate as some people on this forum whom I truly despise everything about, politically speaking.

J Diddy
02-18-2011, 07:37 AM
Why should they be? alnorth explained why collective bargaining shouldn't be allowed for public employee unions. If they want a strong union job, the should look into private sector employment.


Which is what they'll start doing. Then what kind of teachers will we have?


Don't get me wrong, I'm really not a huge fan of unions. I understand the need for them back in their day, but I feel they have become more of a hindrance.

patteeu
02-18-2011, 08:08 AM
Which is what they'll start doing. Then what kind of teachers will we have?


Don't get me wrong, I'm really not a huge fan of unions. I understand the need for them back in their day, but I feel they have become more of a hindrance.

We'll have teachers we can afford.

dirk digler
02-18-2011, 08:10 AM
Did I read the Bloomberg article that SNR posted incorrectly? I thought the police and firefighers were not going to be affected by this legislation.

You are correct. I was more speaking to pat's general idea about no government unions.

patteeu
02-18-2011, 08:12 AM
Because there are so many good private sector firefighter and police jobs. ;)

We don't have a caste system here. Deputy Sheriffs are allowed to transition into IT careers for example.

dirk digler
02-18-2011, 08:14 AM
We don't have a caste system here. Deputy Sheriffs are allowed to transition into IT careers for example.

LMAO I wish we had a union I probably would have never left. I got paid 3x more to work in fast food than I did a deputy.

jiveturkey
02-18-2011, 08:19 AM
I just saw the article in the WSJ and came on here to post it if no one had. No surprise that I was beaten to it.

I'd like to mention, first, that absent some truly extraordinary conditions, which I don't think exist here, the concept of legislators abandoning their posts to deny quorum in order to block legislation is deplorable.

Second, I applaud the efforts of the Republicans in this instance to curb the runaway benefits of state workers.

If what is going on in Wisconsin is replicated around the country, we may finally begin to fix some of our nightmarish high fixed cost issues in the public employment sector.

I'm beginning to think I will be voting Republican in 2012. Certainly Scott Brown can easily enough earn my vote depending on the circumstances.

The really disturbing thing there is that i may vote for the same candidate as some people on this forum whom I truly despise everything about, politically speaking.I'm with ya. This really is a remarkable story and odd that it's coming from a state that I always considered pretty liberal.

Do the red states have gov employee unions?

It sounds like pensions have been a pretty big issue with most states, which seems full retard to me. Who the F has a pension these days? Gov workers should have a benefits package that closely mirrors private sector workers.

Count Alex's Losses
02-18-2011, 08:31 AM
http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/02/wisconsin-dem-senator-posts-brb-message-on-facebook.php

File this one under: brevity win. Wisconsin State Senator Lena Taylor (D) is one of the 14 Democrats who staged a walkout Thursday, and who no one seems to be able to locate. But that doesn't mean she has been in total hiding.

http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/assets_c/2011/02/lena-taylor-fb-cropped-proto-custom_2.jpg

BucEyedPea
02-18-2011, 08:34 AM
I'm with ya. This really is a remarkable story and odd that it's coming from a state that I always considered pretty liberal.

It's the liberals, oops I mean Progressives, that still want their handouts though.
Looks like they were defeated at the ballot box.

J Diddy
02-18-2011, 08:44 AM
We'll have teachers we can afford.

Yes because I'm going to college to get a low paying stressful job.

Chief Henry
02-18-2011, 08:50 AM
[QUOTE=Amnorix;7437356]I just saw the article in the WSJ and came on here to post it if no one had. No surprise that I was beaten to it.

I'd like to mention, first, that absent some truly extraordinary conditions, which I don't think exist here, the concept of legislators abandoning their posts to deny quorum in order to block legislation is deplorable.

Second, I applaud the efforts of the Republicans in this instance to curb the runaway benefits of state workers.

If what is going on in Wisconsin is replicated around the country, we may finally begin to fix some of our nightmarish high fixed cost issues in the public employment sector.

I'm beginning to think I will be voting Republican in 2012. Certainly Scott Brown can easily enough earn my vote depending on the circumstances.

QUOTE]



You are starting to mature.

chris
02-18-2011, 09:12 AM
I live in Madison. I'm sure it wouldn't be that big of a deal if they had some kind of warning and were able to put it up for discussion before taking a vote.

I really don't like the circumstances under which this measure was put through. Republicans like to claim that Democrats pushed through healthcare. Now Wisconsin state Republicans are doing the exact same thing with this CBA deal.

I know Madison's as liberal of a town as they get, but I really don't see anybody supporting this. Republicans are mixed and all Democrats are against this measure.


I talked with an WI ex-state rep yesterday.

Dems know that that they can't win discussion regardless of length of time. They are endeavoring to build base for 2012.

So this is a lame political stunt to gain media attention.

thecoffeeguy
02-18-2011, 09:14 AM
Unfreaking real!

I heard this morning that the White House sent out the Unions to help mobilize for this in Madison, WI. What a bunch of ****ing bullshit!

This country is going to hell in a hand basket, courtesy of Obama.

Amnorix
02-18-2011, 09:21 AM
You are starting to mature.

Spare me your condescending dickhead comments.

What I'm doing is weighing the relative drawbacks of the self-centered fuck the middle class and poor and let-me-impose-my-moral-values-on-everybody approach of Republicans against the drawbacks of the spend-til-you-die Democrats. That law that Republicans are trying to pass in South Dakota regarding justifiable homicide is an absolute abomination and may well cost them votes in 2012. Hell, if it goes through, Democrats will bang that drum loud and long if they're smart.

However, the budgetary situation has gotten so bad that I may well be forced to lean towards the Republicans for a while, if they can really show they care about the budget and not just their pet priorities (military and tax cuts) while continuing to leave the deficit/debt situation a complete mess (i.e. like George Freaking Bush).

Bush turned into a false promise on the budgetary front, which really means that for me he was a complete wipeout -- no budgetary discipline while trying to do the usual Republican things on the "morals" side.

At least with Obama I get half of what I want.

With Clinton I had just about everything I wanted, except for the thinking with his dick part.

So yeah, shove you and your attitude about "maturing".

Amnorix
02-18-2011, 09:28 AM
It sounds like pensions have been a pretty big issue with most states, which seems full retard to me. Who the F has a pension these days? Gov workers should have a benefits package that closely mirrors private sector workers.

The problem isn't so much "pensions" as defined benefit pensions, which are pensions structured around a guaranteed, lifetime payment based on years of service and salary during last X years of employment. They were the norm throughout industrial America in the 50s and 60s, but they were a significant part of the problem that resulted in American manufacturing getting hammered over the last 30 years, and have largely been eliminated in the private sector.

In the public sector, hwoever, unfortunately EVERYTHING is forever. Because governments, unlike companies, do not die if they are poorly structured or economically irresponsible, and because there is no shareholder who can vote by selling their stock, and because unions carry significant political clout, it is very hard to take their beloved pensions away from them.

Massachusetts has had several pension reform efforts, which have been very helpful in curbing what really were dreadful abuses, but the problem still remains.

What needs to happen, seriously, is for the federal government to pass a law OUTLAWING defined benefit pensions for all levels of government employees. That is probably the single best thing that could happen to improve finances at all governmental levels.

The chances of that happening, however, are zero.

Amnorix
02-18-2011, 09:33 AM
Further to my last -- the other typical pension is a "defined contribution" pension, where the employer pays in a certain amount per year per employee, which is a fixed percentage of current pay.

The benefits of that are many:

1. once you pay whatever you're required to pay, you're DONE. No lifetime, endless, hope-they-don't-live-to-be-a-hundred liability hanging around your neck.

2. need to budget and pay for it in the CURRENT year. No rich promises (in exchange for votes) given by politicans that will be someone else's problem to pay for down the road.

3. forces government employees to work longer. In Massachusetts, IIRC, the government employee could have a fully vested pension after 20 or 25 years. So a cop who starts working at 25 retires at 50, gets himself a full time job somewhere (security guard or whatever) on top of collecting full pension for the rest of his (average) 30 years of life. Talk about completely f**king the city/town/state budgets.

Yeah, it's bad. Really bad. And I'll vote for nearly anybody who will fight to end the system.

patteeu
02-18-2011, 09:33 AM
Yes because I'm going to college to get a low paying stressful job.

Maybe you should change your plans.

Radar Chief
02-18-2011, 09:36 AM
Yes because I'm going to college to get a low paying stressful job.

And if I wanted to sit around all day going nowhere I’d become a teacher. /Malory Archer

Chief Henry
02-18-2011, 09:43 AM
Spare me your condescending dickhead comments.

What I'm doing is weighing the relative drawbacks of the self-centered **** the middle class and poor and let-me-impose-my-moral-values-on-everybody approach of Republicans against the drawbacks of the spend-til-you-die Democrats. That law that Republicans are trying to pass in South Dakota regarding justifiable homicide is an absolute abomination and may well cost them votes in 2012. Hell, if it goes through, Democrats will bang that drum loud and long if they're smart.

However, the budgetary situation has gotten so bad that I may well be forced to lean towards the Republicans for a while, if they can really show they care about the budget and not just their pet priorities (military and tax cuts) while continuing to leave the deficit/debt situation a complete mess (i.e. like George Freaking Bush).

Bush turned into a false promise on the budgetary front, which really means that for me he was a complete wipeout -- no budgetary discipline while trying to do the usual Republican things on the "morals" side.

At least with Obama I get half of what I want.

With Clinton I had just about everything I wanted, except for the thinking with his dick part.

So yeah, shove you and your attitude about "maturing".



Spare me ? We've had to endure the self rightious BS of the Liberal
free cheese crowd for decades. We've had to sit and watch our tax dollars pay for every thing from booze, cigs, dirty mags, abortions and now cell phones. We've seen liberal BS from the likes of the Ted Kennedy crowd for decades. Liberals such as yourself kept voting in that POS for decades even after beign proven that he killed that young girl in the auto accident. Spare me the liberal BS self rightious indignation of calling our American soldiers baby killers after coming home from Vietnam. I had a brother come home from Vietnam and had human waste thrown on him in the airport parking lot in Omaha, Ne. Spare me the Barbara Streisand liberal self rightiousness of allowing drug addicts and alcoholics receiving Gov't disabilty checks on a monthly basis.

So shove your self rightious liberal BS right up your ass.

vailpass
02-18-2011, 09:45 AM
I just saw the article in the WSJ and came on here to post it if no one had. No surprise that I was beaten to it.

I'd like to mention, first, that absent some truly extraordinary conditions, which I don't think exist here, the concept of legislators abandoning their posts to deny quorum in order to block legislation is deplorable.

Second, I applaud the efforts of the Republicans in this instance to curb the runaway benefits of state workers.

If what is going on in Wisconsin is replicated around the country, we may finally begin to fix some of our nightmarish high fixed cost issues in the public employment sector.

I'm beginning to think I will be voting Republican in 2012. Certainly Scott Brown can easily enough earn my vote depending on the circumstances.

The really disturbing thing there is that i may vote for the same candidate as some people on this forum whom I truly despise everything about, politically speaking.

This post took guts.

johnny961
02-18-2011, 09:54 AM
I don't have a problem with wages been frozen but I think what they are extremely pissed about is the bill basically stripping them of collective bargaining rights. And they should be.

This was the thing that stuck out most to me too about this whole fiasco. I'd be pissed too.

Amnorix
02-18-2011, 09:59 AM
Spare me ? We've had to endure the self rightious BS of the Liberal free cheese crowd for decades.

Both sides are pretty self-righteous pretty much all of the time. Take off your rose colored glasses. I certainly do it, and you certainly do too.

We've had to sit and watch our tax dollars pay for every thing from booze, cigs, dirty mags, abortions and now cell phones. We've seen liberal BS from the likes of the Ted Kennedy crowd for decades. Liberals such as yourself kept voting in that POS for decades even after beign proven that he killed that young girl in the auto accident. Spare me the liberal BS self rightious indignation of calling our American soldiers baby killers after coming home from Vietnam. I had a brother come home from Vietnam and had human waste thrown on him in the airport parking lot in Omaha, Ne. Spare me the Barbara Streisand liberal self rightiousness of allowing drug addicts and alcoholics receiving Gov't disabilty checks on a monthly basis.

So shove your self rightious liberal BS right up your ass.

Your venting about crap that is 40 years in the past and has nothing to do with anything other than adding to your drool-factor.

I hate to tell you that this country isn't now, never was and never will be what conservatives seem to think -- a country dominated by "middle America" where a few fringe liberal loonies on the coasts every once in a while hijack the country into electing someone who does stupid things and ruins everything for the right-thinking "true" Americans.

And for as long as you hold that mentality, you'll be chronically misinformed about America's history and society.

Amnorix
02-18-2011, 10:09 AM
This was the thing that stuck out most to me too about this whole fiasco. I'd be pissed too.

It excludes wages.

There are elements of the law I dont' like, such as prohibiting union dues, which is obviously just political gamesmanship designed to deprive Democrats of funding. That, of course, goes into larger issues of whether such dues should be permitted to be ployed for political reasons. Given the widespread use of PACs and the recent SCOTUS ruling regarding corporations funding politics, however, it's probaly best to try to maintain some balance there (though I doubt Republicans will see it that way).

J Diddy
02-18-2011, 10:09 AM
Maybe you should change your plans.

That's a solution. Not one that provides any benefit for the future of our country but nonetheless a future.

J Diddy
02-18-2011, 10:10 AM
And if I wanted to sit around all day going nowhere I’d become a teacher. /Malory Archer

Or a farmer for that matter, huh?

vailpass
02-18-2011, 10:15 AM
Or a farmer for that matter, huh?

WTF? Farmers and teachers are both integral parts of the backbone of this country, for a lot of reasons.

patteeu
02-18-2011, 10:17 AM
That's a solution. Not one that provides any benefit for the future of our country but nonetheless a future.

I'm sure you're a great guy but I'm thinking the country would survive.

J Diddy
02-18-2011, 10:17 AM
WTF? Farmers and teachers are both integral parts of the backbone of this country, for a lot of reasons.

that was my point exactly

Chief Henry
02-18-2011, 10:19 AM
Both sides are pretty self-righteous pretty much all of the time. Take off your rose colored glasses. I certainly do it, and you certainly do too.



Your venting about crap that is 40 years in the past and has nothing to do with anything other than adding to your drool-factor.

I hate to tell you that this country isn't now, never was and never will be what conservatives seem to think -- a country dominated by "middle America" where a few fringe liberal loonies on the coasts every once in a while hijack the country into electing someone who does stupid things and ruins everything for the right-thinking "true" Americans.

And for as long as you hold that mentality, you'll be chronically misinformed about America's history and society.

You haven't been paying attention.

Chief Henry
02-18-2011, 10:29 AM
Whats wrong with union members paying for union dues w/o payroll deduction capabilities ? Let the union members CHOOSE to pay the dues with a check.
It would create more jobs for the unions. Just think of all the extra people the
union would have for the "local 23rd envelope openers" union would have.

vailpass
02-18-2011, 10:33 AM
You haven't been paying attention.

Yep. That has always been their problem and will always be their downfall.

dirk digler
02-18-2011, 10:35 AM
Spare me ? We've had to endure the self rightious BS of the Liberal
free cheese crowd for decades. We've had to sit and watch our tax dollars pay for every thing from booze, cigs, dirty mags, abortions and now cell phones. We've seen liberal BS from the likes of the Ted Kennedy crowd for decades. Liberals such as yourself kept voting in that POS for decades even after beign proven that he killed that young girl in the auto accident. Spare me the liberal BS self rightious indignation of calling our American soldiers baby killers after coming home from Vietnam. I had a brother come home from Vietnam and had human waste thrown on him in the airport parking lot in Omaha, Ne. Spare me the Barbara Streisand liberal self rightiousness of allowing drug addicts and alcoholics receiving Gov't disabilty checks on a monthly basis.

So shove your self rightious liberal BS right up your ass.

Next to LaDaris's post this is the biggest POS post I have seen on here in a long time.

You must be stupid or a retard to think it is all one side. You need to pull your head out of your ass and open your eyes.

bsp4444
02-18-2011, 10:38 AM
Spare me ? We've had to endure the self rightious BS of the Liberal
free cheese crowd for decades. We've had to sit and watch our tax dollars pay for every thing from booze, cigs, dirty mags, abortions and now cell phones. We've seen liberal BS from the likes of the Ted Kennedy crowd for decades. Liberals such as yourself kept voting in that POS for decades even after beign proven that he killed that young girl in the auto accident. Spare me the liberal BS self rightious indignation of calling our American soldiers baby killers after coming home from Vietnam. I had a brother come home from Vietnam and had human waste thrown on him in the airport parking lot in Omaha, Ne. Spare me the Barbara Streisand liberal self rightiousness of allowing drug addicts and alcoholics receiving Gov't disabilty checks on a monthly basis.

So shove your self rightious liberal BS right up your ass.

Wow...that's a pretty big overreaction, there. My dad and step dad were both in Vietnam and faced the same things. They are both Democrats. These things are totally unrelated.

Radar Chief
02-18-2011, 10:57 AM
Or a farmer for that matter, huh?

I’m not a farmer.
But no farming is not the field to get into unless you inherit the farm, and even then its an shakey career.

Radar Chief
02-18-2011, 10:59 AM
WTF? Farmers and teachers are both integral parts of the backbone of this country, for a lot of reasons.

I don’t think he got the joke.
Am I the only one watching Archer?

HonestChieffan
02-18-2011, 12:30 PM
They should not pay for every day they stay away and if the voters are upset enough, they should propose a recall and throw these people out on their collective asses. What a crock of pure shit.


(WBAY) — A leading Wisconsin senator who fled to Chicago with fellow Democrats says they could stay out of Wisconsin for days or even weeks.

Senate Democrats are boycotting a vote on a bill that would strip public sector workers of their collective bargaining rights.

State Sen. Jon Erpenbach of Middleton, Wis., is staying at a downtown hotel and expects to stay for days.

He says there’s no fixed date for Democrats to return although he hopes it’s soon. He says returning when the Legislature is in session could give Wisconsin state troopers the chance to force their return.

Erpenbach says Democrats met at a resort in Rockford, Ill., Thursday. Some decided to go to Chicago and others stay nearby.

Erpenbach says he’s spending his own money to stay at the hotel.

Amnorix
02-18-2011, 12:39 PM
You haven't been paying attention.


Actually, I pay alot of attention, and read alot of books about the history of our country, it's founding and development.

But thanks for playing.

Chief Henry
02-18-2011, 12:47 PM
Actually, I pay alot of attention, and read alot of books about the history of our country, it's founding and development.

But thanks for playing.

"Thanks for playing".......What a condescending BS thing to post. But as a liberal, I don't expect anything less from you.

Thanks for proving my point to a T.

ROYC75
02-18-2011, 01:04 PM
Obama said that we will have to suffer before we can pullout of this. So do we want our wages cut and taxes lower or our wages the same with taxes higher. We must address the State and Local issues as well as the Federal issues. But people just want to bitch about it in general. For people so naive to think that the " RICH " can front the bill for all of it is asinine,but there are some who think like this. We simply can not just let one side dictate how to handle this. Simply put, somebody has to pay for all of this debt we owe.

Jaric
02-18-2011, 01:06 PM
Obama said that we will have to suffer before we can pullout of this. So do we want our wages cut and taxes lower or our wages the same with taxes higher. We must address the State and Local issues as well as the Federal issues. But people just want to bitch about it in general. For people so naive to think that the " RICH " can front the bill for all of it is asinine,but there are some who think like this. We simply can not just let one side dictate how to handle this. Simply put, somebody has to pay for all of this debt we owe.

I agree. The question seems to be who? This may be the ultimate "not in my backyard" issue.

HonestChieffan
02-18-2011, 01:08 PM
I agree. The question seems to be who? This may be the ultimate "not in my backyard" issue.


The answer is simple. We all have to pay it not just one group.

SNR
02-18-2011, 01:10 PM
"Thanks for playing".......What a condescending BS thing to post. But as a liberal, I don't expect anything less from you.

Thanks for proving my point to a T.
The only condescending BS coming from this exchange is from you, dude. You started it with the "you're starting to mature" comment after Amnorix posted a great example of an honest post

mlyonsd
02-18-2011, 01:12 PM
I agree. The question seems to be who? This may be the ultimate "not in my backyard" issue.

Actually there are a lot of states that are acting like grown ups and trying to solve their own problems.

It's at the Federal level where the biggest problem is. Those guys are the ones that really act like idiots.

Jaric
02-18-2011, 01:13 PM
The answer is simple. We all have to pay it not just one group.

I agree with you. But even then we have to figure out how much each one is going to pay.

Unless you* think it would be fair to have the Bill Gates and Donald Trumps of the world paying the same amount that the middle class family of 4 is paying.


*I'm using the royal you, not you specifically there

mlyonsd
02-18-2011, 01:19 PM
I agree with you. But even then we have to figure out how much each one is going to pay.

Unless you* think it would be fair to have the Bill Gates and Donald Trumps of the world paying the same amount that the middle class family of 4 is paying.


*I'm using the royal you, not you specifically there

I'd be for a flat 'Get us out of debt' tax across the board. As long as the law creating it was written it's revenue can't be spent on anything other than debt.

HonestChieffan
02-18-2011, 01:20 PM
I agree with you. But even then we have to figure out how much each one is going to pay.

Unless you* think it would be fair to have the Bill Gates and Donald Trumps of the world paying the same amount that the middle class family of 4 is paying.


*I'm using the royal you, not you specifically there


I think it will take multiple taxes of different types that do not focus on any one group. The fact is we cant get it all from the top 30% of wage earners and allow 70% to pay zero. I would fully expect before its over to see either a VAT or a federal sales tax and I would expect to see fees like toll roads and higher gas taxes. We cannot increase corporate taxes any higher.

Well we can but the fallout would be devastating.

I also believe we are seeing a new normal established on employment. The days of 6-7% as full employment may be gone

Jaric
02-18-2011, 01:25 PM
I'd be for a flat 'Get us out of debt' tax across the board. As long as the law creating it was written it's revenue can't be spent on anything other than debt.

The problem is, that last time I looked at the debt clock, each individuals share of the debt was around 200k.

I don't have that much laying around and I doubt many other people do either.

You are right that if we are going to raise taxes to pay the debt off (which we will have to) if that money goes for anything other than paying off the debt the people responsible should be publically tortured before being executed.

Jaric
02-18-2011, 01:28 PM
I think it will take multiple taxes of different types that do not focus on any one group. The fact is we cant get it all from the top 30% of wage earners and allow 70% to pay zero. I would fully expect before its over to see either a VAT or a federal sales tax and I would expect to see fees like toll roads and higher gas taxes. We cannot increase corporate taxes any higher.

Well we can but the fallout would be devastating.

I also believe we are seeing a new normal established on employment. The days of 6-7% as full employment may be gone

The first step is to see major cuts in spending and we can't have anything be off limits.. And when I say cuts, I don't mean "increase spending by less than we planned." Until that happens there is no really point in discussing anything.

HonestChieffan
02-18-2011, 01:33 PM
The first step is to see major cuts in spending and we can't have anything be off limits.. And when I say cuts, I don't mean "increase spending by less than we planned." Until that happens there is no really point in discussing anything.

i agree

Amnorix
02-18-2011, 01:34 PM
"Thanks for playing".......What a condescending BS thing to post. But as a liberal, I don't expect anything less from you.

Thanks for proving my point to a T.

So only liberals post condescending BS?? Doesn't really seem like it to be honest...



You are starting to mature.<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->

Jaric
02-18-2011, 01:35 PM
i agree

Sadly, I don't see that happening. What would probably be a more relevent discussion is "What happens when we finally default?"

Amnorix
02-18-2011, 01:39 PM
Actually there are a lot of states that are acting like grown ups and trying to solve their own problems.

It's at the Federal level where the biggest problem is. Those guys are the ones that really act like idiots.

True, but:

1. the states don't need to spend on military, foreign affairs, etc.

2. the feds act as the backstop for the states in many ways. Unemployment and Medicaid/care (I always confuse the two) are a perfect example of this. So some things, when they're overbudget at the state level, become the feds problem.

3. many states have balanced budget requirements, which is a good thing at the state level but may not be a good thing at the federal level given that unusual circumstances may put us in a position of wanting to do deficit spending -- though it should be for a limited timeframe, etc.

Not that the federal deficit is remotely acceptable, of course, just pointing out the different circumstances.

HonestChieffan
02-18-2011, 01:51 PM
Obamas dream, the people rise as one to socialize hiring. If they set fire to buildings I have my doubts Obama will say a thing against the protestors.


(Chicago Tribune) — The Rev. Jesse Jackson has urged thousands of protesters in the Wisconsin Capitol to continue their stand against a sweeping anti-union bill that state Republicans are pushing.

Jackson made an unannounced appearance at the protests Friday afternoon. Protesters rushed to shake his hand or high-five him, and many shouted, “Thank you, Jesse.”

Jackson told the protesters they were fighting for a just cause. He told them to hold strong to their principles and continue fighting to kill the bill. Then he led the masses in a rendition of “We Shall Overcome.”

Jackson likened the protest to anti-government fights in Egypt and Tunisia. He says Wisconsin workers should be allowed at the table to help find a solution.

ROYC75
02-18-2011, 01:54 PM
So only liberals post condescending BS?? Doesn't really seem like it to be honest...


<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->


Only ? I would say no. Mostly ? I would have to say yes.

HonestChieffan
02-18-2011, 02:13 PM
http://americanpowerblog.blogspot.com/2011/02/socialist-public-employees-call-for.html

BucEyedPea
02-18-2011, 02:32 PM
Only ? I would say no. Mostly ? I would have to say yes.

Oh well, my having some views on both sides I would say it's nearly equal.

Mr. Kotter
02-18-2011, 02:35 PM
Thanks, Amnorix for the comity and levity you bring (you are a better man than I) to a fascinating topic. Your comments are thoughtful, well-stated, and pretty much what I think.

In SD, our teachers' pensions are self-funded. We are also a right-to-work state, with no binding arbitration. Unions in this state are, basically, powerless to do anything other than lobby. Now there is talk, like in WI and other places of eliminating all collective bargaining. FTR, I don't have any problem with the conservative politics of this state, and I became a teacher understanding the financial state of education--but I also became a teacher, in large part, due to the benefits and pension, along with the family friendly lifestyle. It was an integral part of why I chose the profession, rather than continue working in an unstable and volatile field of medical sales. It was a calculated decision, on which the pension was a major piece.

Due to the conservative climate here, we are ahead of most liberal states in avoiding the financial mess they are experiencing. Our retirements are self-funded and COLAS are adjusted based on current economic realities and the CPI....and retired folks ride the ebb-and-flow of the economy along with everyone else. That's a sort of fiscal responsibility that I appreciate even if I lament that we do not place as high a priority on education as we do that devil called ethanol....or growing state bureacracy, for example. While our pay lags behind the rest of the country, cost of living and Midwest values were a strong allure us. Despite the trade-offs, choosing to raise our family here was a good decision for us--but I'm alarmed at what seems to be coming at us these days.

Our current governor wants to cut education funding by 10%, across the board. And he has the rubber-stamp lackeys from his party to shove the thing through. This is AFTER we've been frozen for the last 2-3 years... resulting in an adjusted for inflation cuts of 4-5%. We are expected to go from bare bones....to major cuts in programs and quality of education, mostly because we are easy targets. Yeah, I understand we have to do our share; but I thinks it's pretty clear we already have. Eliminating our place at the bargaining table speaks to the contempt that so many seem to feel toward those of us who are trying to educate the next generation. And that's just very discouraging. FWIW, I have never been a union member, and I'm the type that will leave the profession if pushed too hard.

Yeah, yeah....patty and mylonsd and others will say, move...get a different job...change careers. Yeah, that's something we can do. Why should we have to though? I'm amazed and saddened that our society has become so shallow--so self-centered and greedy, that we truly are turning our backs on our children and grandchildren. How does our culture continue to build gambling casinos one-after-another, spend $billions on porn and twice-a-year trips to Vegas, and more billions on professional sports....yet seeking a $28 per month increase in property taxes, or a half-cent sales tax to continue funding current levels of education, is considered looting. It really is depressing. I understand the frustration of some with public education in some parts of the country--but public education still works in many other parts of the country, and it works well.

This country may be headed into serious trouble...but it sure as hell has much less to do with W. or Obama, and much more to do with a greed that has become an insidious and growing part of our national culture.

Er....eh, sorry for the rant. I'm just more than a little fed up with the general contempt and disregard that so many have toward a profession that is trying to give our kids the tools to succeed in this increasingly f'd-up world. I know us baby-boomers didn't invent greed, but we are taking it to a new level. Maybe our kids will be smarter than we've been though. I sure hope so.

Chief Henry
02-18-2011, 02:48 PM
So only liberals post condescending BS?? Doesn't really seem like it to be honest...


<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->




Ah shucks...you guys are admiting that a conservative poster got one in before you. You must be slipping :rolleyes:

How about those union thugs going to the HOMES of Senate Republicans in Ws. and blocking traffic and no doubt causing alot of concern for family members of those senate R members.

How about those union thugs compaing Gov. Walker to Mubarek and Hitler ?
So much for the civility after the Az shooting.

Classic bunch of union thugs that have been bused up to Ws. I'm sure the students are learning a great deal about how Alinskys book "Rules for Radicals" can benefit people who want others to pay for lifes living expenses.

dirk digler
02-18-2011, 02:48 PM
The only condescending BS coming from this exchange is from you, dude. You started it with the "you're starting to mature" comment after Amnorix posted a great example of an honest post

In all fairness to CH he wouldn't know what honest was if it slapped him upside the head

Mr. Kotter
02-18-2011, 02:53 PM
Ah shucks...you guys are admiting that a conservative poster got one in before you. You must be slipping :rolleyes:

How about those union thugs going to the HOMES of Senate Republicans in Ws. and blocking traffic and no doubt causing alot of concern for family members of those senate R members.

How about those union thugs compaing Gov. Walker to Mubarek and Hitler ?
So much for the civility after the Az shooting.

Classic bunch of union thugs that have been bused up to Ws. I'm sure the students are learning a great deal about how Alinskys book "Rules for Radicals" can benefit people who want others to pay for lifes living expenses.

I'm no fan of strong arm union tactics....but there are plenty of thugs on both sides of this issue. The next round of elections will be real, real interesting.

dirk digler
02-18-2011, 02:55 PM
Ah shucks...you guys are admiting that a conservative poster got one in before you. You must be slipping :rolleyes:

How about those union thugs going to the HOMES of Senate Republicans in Ws. and blocking traffic and no doubt causing alot of concern for family members of those senate R members.

How about those union thugs compaing Gov. Walker to Mubarek and Hitler ?
So much for the civility after the Az shooting.

Classic bunch of union thugs that have been bused up to Ws. I'm sure the students are learning a great deal about how Alinskys book "Rules for Radicals" can benefit people who want others to pay for lifes living expenses.

Sounds vaguely similar to how people like you acted during the health care debate.

Now you don't like it and cry like a bitch.

bevischief
02-18-2011, 03:04 PM
Time for them to see how the rest of us live. Either this or they do lay-offs.

Simplex3
02-18-2011, 03:24 PM
I'm amazed and saddened that our society has become so shallow--so self-centered and greedy, that we truly are turning our backs on our children and grandchildren.

Who's the greedy party? The parents trying to keep their own money or the teachers using the force of government to take it so they don't have to contribute to their own health plans and retirements? The people teachers take money from don't get free health care and a pension. The people teachers take money from are experiencing 10% unemployment and massive underemployment.

I'm not going try to convince you teachers are overpaid, but as a member of society shouldn't you take the same hit the rest of us are? Or are teachers supposed to be somehow immune from a poor economy?

Otter
02-18-2011, 03:29 PM
These cowards should be arrested, tried for derlict of duty and dismissed from their jobs and any benefits.

This is a disgrace.

Mr. Kotter
02-18-2011, 03:48 PM
Who's the greedy party? The parents trying to keep their own money or the teachers using the force of government to take it so they don't have to contribute to their own health plans and retirements? The people teachers take money from don't get free health care and a pension. The people teachers take money from are experiencing 10% unemployment and massive underemployment.

I'm not going try to convince you teachers are overpaid, but as a member of society shouldn't you take the same hit the rest of us are? Or are teachers supposed to be somehow immune from a poor economy?

I have no problems with reasonable proposals negotiated over a bargaining table, so WI teachers ought to take a hit, yeah---but to remove them from the debate? Really?

As for your notions of "free health care and pensions," it's part of their compensation package--similar in most ways, to the private sector--many people I know have 401k with matching contributions from employers (I'd love that one,) and the vast majority have better healthcare coverage than our lame plan. So benefits can be more generous than in some jobs, but certainly less generous than other jobs. Regardless, it was negotiated. To reiterate, our pension plan is entirely self-funded.

And, I guess you didn't read the part about how, here in SD anyway--we already HAVE taken a big hit? :shrug:

K-12 education in SD has taken about a 10% cut in real adjusted for inflation dollars...over the last decade or so (during a time, which FWIW...property taxes state wide were cut 30%,) during a time when funding for other government agencies and programs kept pace with inflation, and actually grew. How's that not "sharing" in the pain?

Garcia Bronco
02-18-2011, 03:49 PM
Spare me ? We've had to endure the self rightious BS of the Liberal
free cheese crowd for decades. We've had to sit and watch our tax dollars pay for every thing from booze, cigs, dirty mags, abortions and now cell phones. We've seen liberal BS from the likes of the Ted Kennedy crowd for decades. Liberals such as yourself kept voting in that POS for decades even after beign proven that he killed that young girl in the auto accident. Spare me the liberal BS self rightious indignation of calling our American soldiers baby killers after coming home from Vietnam. I had a brother come home from Vietnam and had human waste thrown on him in the airport parking lot in Omaha, Ne. Spare me the Barbara Streisand liberal self rightiousness of allowing drug addicts and alcoholics receiving Gov't disabilty checks on a monthly basis.

So shove your self rightious liberal BS right up your ass.

Well said.

Chief Henry
02-18-2011, 03:51 PM
Sounds vaguely similar to how people like you acted during the health care debate.

Now you don't like it and cry like a bitch.

Don't know if I recall any Tea Party members going to the Homes of any Dems and scaring the hell out of dems family members. If it had happened
I'm sure it would have made BIG news. After all, the MSM loves to point out the uncivility of the right - even when its not there (coug cough) Az. shooting.

Maybe the Gov of Ws. who won Novembers election should remind the employees of the TAX PAYERS of WISCONSIN just who won last Novembers election. I recall Obama using those similar words.

The students are pawns being used by the Unions :shake:

Mr. Kotter
02-18-2011, 03:58 PM
Don't know if I recall any Tea Party members going to the Homes of any Dems and scaring the hell out of dems family members. If it had happened
I'm sure it would have made BIG news. After all, the MSM loves to point out the uncivility of the right - even when its not there (coug cough) Az. shooting.

Maybe the Gov of Ws. who won Novembers election should remind the employees of the TAX PAYERS of WISCONSIN just who won last Novembers election. I recall Obama using those similar words.

The students are pawns being used by the Unions :shake:

Heh....knowing Wisconsin as I do, with family and friends there....this governor and this legislature better do what they can, fast; I suspect they won't like the results of the next election given the circus they are running in Madison...and from what I'm hearing from some pretty conservative types about the "mistake" they made last November.

:)

Garcia Bronco
02-18-2011, 03:59 PM
Don't know if I recall any Tea Party members going to the Homes of any Dems and scaring the hell out of dems family members. If it had happened
I'm sure it would have made BIG news. After all, the MSM loves to point out the uncivility of the right - even when its not there (coug cough) Az. shooting.

Maybe the Gov of Ws. who won Novembers election should remind the employees of the TAX PAYERS of WISCONSIN just who won last Novembers election. I recall Obama using those similar words.

The students are pawns being used by the Unions :shake:

Not only that, but few of them probably pay taxes. In most cases their parents still claim them until they are 23.

dirk digler
02-18-2011, 04:01 PM
Don't know if I recall any Tea Party members going to the Homes of any Dems and scaring the hell out of dems family members. If it had happened
I'm sure it would have made BIG news. After all, the MSM loves to point out the uncivility of the right - even when its not there (coug cough) Az. shooting.

Maybe the Gov of Ws. who won Novembers election should remind the employees of the TAX PAYERS of WISCONSIN just who won last Novembers election. I recall Obama using those similar words.

The students are pawns being used by the Unions :shake:

There was all kinds of violence\threats over health care and yes there were threats made at people's homes and at their house.

Representative Louise M. Slaughter, a senior Democrat from New York, received a phone message threatening sniper attacks against lawmakers and their families.

The Associated Press reported that the authorities in Virginia were investigating a cut propane line to an outdoor grill at the home of a brother of Representative Tom Perriello of Virginia, after the address was mistakenly listed on a Tea Party Web site as the residence of the congressman. And tea partiers called Obama and Dems Nazi's and Hitler so no difference there either.

But your 2nd paragraph is correct and I got a chuckle when I was watching the Governor say that because Obama got elected to do the same thing with health care. That didn't stop people like you and others bitching and moaning about it.

Garcia Bronco
02-18-2011, 04:07 PM
And tea partiers called Obama and Dems Nazi's and Hitler so no difference there either.


The Nazi's were socialists. :P

The Rick
02-18-2011, 04:25 PM
Time for them to see how the rest of us live. Either this or they do lay-offs.

I live in Wisconsin, am a government employee (non-union though) and I'm a little conflicted on this. I don't work for the state...I work in IT for local government, but we're part of the state retirement program so this will likely affect me as well.

Let me first say I voted for Governor Walker and I support the bill. Our state is in trouble and it's time to fix the financial mess. Walker campaigned on this plan, was elected by the people, and is now doing exactly what he said he was going to do.

I'm opposed to public employee unions. Being a conservative Republican, I don't like unions in general, but especially public employee unions.

First, those unionized public employees are forced to pay dues to the unions (it's withheld from their paychecks) whether they like it or not. It's no secret that public employee union leaders are staunch backers of the Democratic party and they send a lot of union money to the campaigns of Democratic candidates. That means union members end up supporting the Democratic party whether they like it or not.

Secondly, and more to the point, public employee unions are different from private employee unions. The difference is that because public employee union leaders send money to the campaigns of Democratic candidates, they are essentially helping them get elected. The end result is that public employee unions essentially are "choosing" their bosses. The formula is different in the public sector.

So, I support the bill and I oppose the unions.

My only problem with this situation is the blatantly wrong viewpoint like the one above. Trust me, government employees (at least most of us) aren't exactly living the good life. Sure, I get better benefits than private IT workers at my same skill level, but it's a fact that the trade off is a lower salary. My salary is lower comparatively than the salary of of a private sector IT professional. I took the position because the nice benefits make up the difference.

As a government employee, I don't get to enjoy perks like profit sharing when times are good. I don't get to enjoy other small freebies that a few companies offer their employees (free drinks, timeshares, free lunches, etc.) because of the need to be responsible to the taxpayers. My raises are capped at 2% so when times are good, I can't get those big 5-10% raises that private sector employees can get.

I'm absolutely saddened and ashamed by the selfishness being displayed by our teachers which has caused our schools to be closed for the past 3 days. It's obvious those teachers don't care about their students. But to say that government employees are living high and might simply isn't true.

vailpass
02-18-2011, 04:58 PM
Tough times call for tough measures. WI Dems are just posturing for next election; letting the protesters think they left the state because they are going to fight when they intend to do nothing of the sort.
It appears this particular union is a drain that can no longer be afforded.

Chief Henry
02-18-2011, 05:02 PM
There was all kinds of violence\threats over health care and yes there were threats made at people's homes and at their house.

And tea partiers called Obama and Dems Nazi's and Hitler so no difference there either.

But your 2nd paragraph is correct and I got a chuckle when I was watching the Governor say that because Obama got elected to do the same thing with health care. That didn't stop people like you and others bitching and moaning about it.


Where is the new level of civility Obama has called for ? Or is it only ment for
conservatives and republican politicians to adhear to ?

Obamacare hasn't fixed the problem of healthcare, he's made it worse. Obamacare hasn't fixed the high cost of health care insurance, he's made it worse. Only fools believe Obamacare has solved the major problems of health care. With any luck this crop of teapartyconservativerepublicans can find a legal way to KILL the funding of this fiasco known as Obamacare.

Mr. Kotter
02-18-2011, 05:03 PM
The Nazi's were socialists. :P

Eh, they called themselves socialists; fascist bait-and-switch notwithstanding, the Nazis came from the right of the political spectrum....no matter the rationalization and obfuscation of reactionary right Nazi-types now seeking to establish themselves here. I could call myself the next Tom Selleck. Doesn't make it so.

Chief Henry
02-18-2011, 05:08 PM
I live in Wisconsin, am a government employee (non-union though) and I'm a little conflicted on this. I don't work for the state...I work in IT for local government, but we're part of the state retirement program so this will likely affect me as well.

Let me first say I voted for Governor Walker and I support the bill. Our state is in trouble and it's time to fix the financial mess. Walker campaigned on this plan, was elected by the people, and is now doing exactly what he said he was going to do.I'm opposed to public employee unions. Being a conservative Republican, I don't like unions in general, but especially public employee unions.

First, those unionized public employees are forced to pay dues to the unions (it's withheld from their paychecks) whether they like it or not. It's no secret that public employee union leaders are staunch backers of the Democratic party and they send a lot of union money to the campaigns of Democratic candidates. That means union members end up supporting the Democratic party whether they like it or not.

Secondly, and more to the point, public employee unions are different from private employee unions. The difference is that because public employee union leaders send money to the campaigns of Democratic candidates, they are essentially helping them get elected. The end result is that public employee unions essentially are "choosing" their bosses. The formula is different in the public sector.

So, I support the bill and I oppose the unions.

My only problem with this situation is the blatantly wrong viewpoint like the one above. Trust me, government employees (at least most of us) aren't exactly living the good life. Sure, I get better benefits than private IT workers at my same skill level, but it's a fact that the trade off is a lower salary. My salary is lower comparatively than the salary of of a private sector IT professional. I took the position because the nice benefits make up the difference.

As a government employee, I don't get to enjoy perks like profit sharing when times are good. I don't get to enjoy other small freebies that a few companies offer their employees (free drinks, timeshares, free lunches, etc.) because of the need to be responsible to the taxpayers. My raises are capped at 2% so when times are good, I can't get those big 5-10% raises that private sector employees can get.

I'm absolutely saddened and ashamed by the selfishness being displayed by our teachers which has caused our schools to be closed for the past 3 days. It's obvious those teachers don't care about their students. But to say that government employees are living high and might simply isn't true.



Gov. Walker is looking out for the physcal health and the well being of the state of Wisconsin. He's also trying to keep from laying off teachers or other state EEs. By listening to the unioncrats, you'd think Governor Walker was taking the first born child of each union member in Wisconsin.....the people in Wisconsin knew this was coming - they voted for this.

The students in Wisconsin are being used as PAWNS by the unions.

Mr. Kotter
02-18-2011, 05:13 PM
Gov. Walker is looking out for the physcal health and the well being ....

LMAO

mlyonsd
02-18-2011, 05:20 PM
The Gov. is holding a press conference right now and FOX is carrying it.

He sounds awesome.

The Rick
02-18-2011, 05:30 PM
The Gov. is holding a press conference right now and FOX is carrying it.

He sounds awesome.

He is awesome.

Chief Henry
02-18-2011, 05:35 PM
LMAO

That was bad wan't it....fiscal :doh!:

jettio
02-18-2011, 05:42 PM
I would guess that the Wisconsin GOP is overreaching here and could have passed something more fiscally responsible without being so blatantly anti-union.

I would guess that this helps the Wisconsin Dems and Obama for 2012.

Seems like a lot of industries with collective bargaining have negotiated concessions from unions when the overall economics call for it.

I would think that the state could negotiate changes to the state employee benefit plan without taking away collective bargaining. If they have had collective bargaining for generations up there, you can not take that away without paying a political price.

Chief Henry
02-18-2011, 06:16 PM
I would guess that the Wisconsin GOP is overreaching here and could have passed something more fiscally responsible without being so blatantly anti-union.

I would guess that this helps the Wisconsin Dems and Obama for 2012.Seems like a lot of industries with collective bargaining have negotiated concessions from unions when the overall economics call for it.

I would think that the state could negotiate changes to the state employee benefit plan without taking away collective bargaining. If they have had collective bargaining for generations up there, you can not take that away without paying a political price.

I would guess its the other way around. Gov. Walker and the republicans campaigned on doing this. The people of Wisconsin and and many people across America are paying close attention to this. Whats happening in Wisconsin is EPIC.

HonestChieffan
02-18-2011, 07:11 PM
Heh....knowing Wisconsin as I do, with family and friends there....this governor and this legislature better do what they can, fast; I suspect they won't like the results of the next election given the circus they are running in Madison...and from what I'm hearing from some pretty conservative types about the "mistake" they made last November.

:)

Madison has been a cesspool of kooks for a long time. Wisconsin for those who have not been there is a beautiful place, great people, and a gem overall. But it also has a great deal of kookieness that has been there forever.

If you have not vacationed in Wisconsin, you have cheated yourself.

orange
02-18-2011, 07:12 PM
Where is the new level of civility Obama has called for ?

It went out the door when the Governor of Wisconsin threatened to sic the National Guard on public workers.

mlyonsd
02-18-2011, 07:15 PM
I would guess that the Wisconsin GOP is overreaching here and could have passed something more fiscally responsible without being so blatantly anti-union.

I would guess that this helps the Wisconsin Dems and Obama for 2012.

Seems like a lot of industries with collective bargaining have negotiated concessions from unions when the overall economics call for it.

I would think that the state could negotiate changes to the state employee benefit plan without taking away collective bargaining. If they have had collective bargaining for generations up there, you can not take that away without paying a political price.

I would guess you are right about the Wis dems and Obama. It's a swing state and he's trying to keep the connection with them.

The Rick
02-18-2011, 07:23 PM
It went out the door when the Governor of Wisconsin threatened to sic the National Guard on public workers.

That's an absolute lie being spread by Democrats and it really pisses me off when I hear it.

Walker never said that. He was asked what would happen if correctional officers (whose union would also be impacted by this) walked out. His response was that he would bring in the National Guard...to guard the jails. That's it.

mlyonsd
02-18-2011, 07:31 PM
That's an absolute lie being spread by Democrats and it really pisses me off when I hear it.

Walker never said that. He was asked what would happen if correctional officers (whose union would also be impacted by this) walked out. His response was that he would bring in the National Guard...to guard the jails. That's it.
I listened to Walker's presser tonight. He was impressive. It will be interesting to see who wins out, him or Obama.

HonestChieffan
02-18-2011, 07:37 PM
It went out the door when the Governor of Wisconsin threatened to sic the National Guard on public workers.

Damn him for wanting to maintain order and stop people from burning buildings. Some of us recall the late 60's and nutjobs burning campus buildings....he didnt threaten, he informed the guard they may be needed....but thats not relevant to the moonbats.

Nice try monkeyboy

Stinger
02-18-2011, 07:40 PM
It went out the door when the Governor of Wisconsin threatened to sic the National Guard on public workers.
......



http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v250/stinger871/Chief%20Planet/68u1wz-2.gif

The Rick
02-18-2011, 07:40 PM
I listened to Walker's presser tonight. He was impressive. It will be interesting to see who wins out, him or Obama.

Yeah, I was impressed too!

Before being elected Governor, he was the county executive for the county I live in (Milwaukee County). He was good then, but he's fairly young too so it's been awesome to see him grow as a leader. If you would have told me two years ago that I'd see what I saw today, I would have called you crazy. Now though, I'm wondering if he has a future on the national scene...

mlyonsd
02-18-2011, 07:51 PM
Yeah, I was impressed too!

Before being elected Governor, he was the county executive for the county I live in (Milwaukee County). He was good then, but he's fairly young too so it's been awesome to see him grow as a leader. If you would have told me two years ago that I'd see what I saw today, I would have called you crazy. Now though, I'm wondering if he has a future on the national scene...

We learned after the 2008 election it's more important to prove a person as a leader than to just buy into their excellent BS.

The guy in charge is still leading a dying party like he hasn't learned a thing.

orange
02-18-2011, 07:52 PM
That's an absolute lie being spread by Democrats and it really pisses me off when I hear it.

Walker never said that. He was asked what would happen if correctional officers (whose union would also be impacted by this) walked out. His response was that he would bring in the National Guard...to guard the jails. That's it.

BULLSHIT!!!

<object width="640" height="390"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube-nocookie.com/v/GI-RnmFdKpI?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube-nocookie.com/v/GI-RnmFdKpI?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="640" height="390"></embed></object>

"... ANY CONTINGENCY ..."

orange
02-18-2011, 08:01 PM
......



http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v250/stinger871/Chief%20Planet/68u1wz-2.gif

You need a haircut, mopboy.

HonestChieffan
02-18-2011, 08:07 PM
Monkeyboy thinks the gov wants the guard to shoot the Union folk. Kookieness knows no bounds.

orange
02-18-2011, 08:10 PM
Another Left-Winger weighs in:

National Guard May Deploy as Socialists, Unions Wreak Havoc in Wisconsin
Written by Alex Newman
Friday, 18 February 2011 09:58

A coalition of socialists, government-union members, and other protestors — some of whom were reportedly bussed in from out of state — wreaked havoc in Madison, Wisconsin, in recent days while demonstrating against proposed budget cuts and a bill that would prevent most government employees from collectively demanding ever-increasing salaries and benefits.

The protests have become so intense — police estimated the number of demonstrators at around 25,000 — that Republican Gov. Scott Walker said he could be forced to call out the state’s National Guard to quell the disorder and keep certain state functions such as the prison system functioning. At least nine protestors had been arrested by Thursday afternoon, state officials reported.

...

http://www.thenewamerican.com/index.php/usnews/politics/6367-national-guard-may-deploy-as-socialists-unions-wreak-havoc-in-wis

OOOPS, I guess he's a Right-Winger. MY BAD!

HonestChieffan
02-18-2011, 08:14 PM
Governor wants to maintain order. Imagine that!!! OMG its so wrong!!! Monkeyboy fool.

orange
02-18-2011, 08:20 PM
That's an absolute lie being spread by Democrats and it really pisses me off when I hear it.

Walker never said that. He was asked what would happen if correctional officers (whose union would also be impacted by this) walked out. His response was that he would bring in the National Guard...to guard the jails. That's it.

...

Governor wants to maintain order. Imagine that!!! OMG its so wrong!!! Monkeyboy fool.

Refudiated by one of your own! In only ten posts!! Damn, that was easy!

The Rick
02-18-2011, 08:21 PM
Governor wants to maintain order. Imagine that!!! OMG its so wrong!!! Monkeyboy fool.
:thumb:

HonestChieffan
02-18-2011, 08:23 PM
...



Refudiated by one of your own! In only ten posts!! Damn, that was easy!

Monkeyworld. Must be a fun place.

orange
02-18-2011, 08:24 PM
Monkeyworld. Must be a fun place.

We prefer "Apeworld," actually.

The Rick
02-18-2011, 08:26 PM
...



Refudiated by one of your own! In only ten posts!! Damn, that was easy!
I've not read anything, including within the article you linked to, that Walker was going to "sic the National Guard" on public workers. Only to keep the prisons functioning and to maintain order. In every speech he's given, he's clearly stated that protesters "deserve to have their voices heard".

mlyonsd
02-18-2011, 08:35 PM
True, but:

1. the states don't need to spend on military, foreign affairs, etc.

2. the feds act as the backstop for the states in many ways. Unemployment and Medicaid/care (I always confuse the two) are a perfect example of this. So some things, when they're overbudget at the state level, become the feds problem.

3. many states have balanced budget requirements, which is a good thing at the state level but may not be a good thing at the federal level given that unusual circumstances may put us in a position of wanting to do deficit spending -- though it should be for a limited timeframe, etc.

Not that the federal deficit is remotely acceptable, of course, just pointing out the different circumstances.

All true. My question is where and why is the disconnect? It's like if you're elevated to the federal level they only think for themselves instead of the good.

I really think benefits for our elected officials should be rolled back big time. It's like once they are there they'll make every deal with the devil to stay there.

I've preached term limits for years on this board. Now I want term limits with reduced benefits. I might be naive but I think you'd get more people wanting to serve for good instead of themselves.

mlyonsd
02-18-2011, 08:39 PM
Governor wants to maintain order. Imagine that!!! OMG its so wrong!!! Monkeyboy fool.You used the wrong word. The Governor wants to maintain law.

KILLER_CLOWN
02-18-2011, 08:44 PM
All true. My question is where and why is the disconnect? It's like if you're elevated to the federal level they only think for themselves instead of the good.

I really think benefits for our elected officials should be rolled back big time. It's like once they are there they'll make every deal with the devil to stay there.

I've preached term limits for years on this board. Now I want term limits with reduced benefits. I might be naive but I think you'd get more people wanting to serve for good instead of themselves.

Agreed and definitely with the bolded part.

HonestChieffan
02-18-2011, 08:46 PM
You used the wrong word. The Governor wants to maintain law.

PC Moneytalk.

Direckshun
02-18-2011, 09:25 PM
I would guess that the Wisconsin GOP is overreaching here and could have passed something more fiscally responsible without being so blatantly anti-union.

I would guess that this helps the Wisconsin Dems and Obama for 2012.

Seems like a lot of industries with collective bargaining have negotiated concessions from unions when the overall economics call for it.

I would think that the state could negotiate changes to the state employee benefit plan without taking away collective bargaining. If they have had collective bargaining for generations up there, you can not take that away without paying a political price.

Other than the bit about Obama, this post is about where I'm at.

This bill is a union buster, plain and simple. I think plenty of concessions could have been wrought from the unions, they've done it a thousand times before. As jettio suggests, this is a vast overreach.

There doesn't seem to be any union input into this at all, which isn't illegal but it's sure jarring. And the fact that they have asked this to be passed in a week, something that effects nearly a million jobs in the state, is even more bizarre.

The Dems skipping town is... bizarre. That Wisconsin forces this to be their version of the filibuster is hilarious in the darkest of ways.

Now they have to negotiate just to get the Dems in the chamber. Weird.

Direckshun
02-18-2011, 09:27 PM
I will say this: this isn't about the budget (this bill would right the budget by about $300 million, while they have a multi-billion $ deficit). This is about union busting.

What is breaking Wisconsin right now is the exact same thing that's breaking the rest of the country: Medicare/Medicaid.

This whole country needs to take a hard, hard look at Medicare.

jettio
02-18-2011, 09:31 PM
I would guess its the other way around. Gov. Walker and the republicans campaigned on doing this. The people of Wisconsin and and many people across America are paying close attention to this. Whats happening in Wisconsin is EPIC.

Do you have evidence that this is what Walker and the GOP campaigned on?

Do you have examples of TV or print ads where he specifically said that he would be hostile to unions and collective bargaining?

mlyonsd
02-18-2011, 09:43 PM
Other than the bit about Obama, this post is about where I'm at.

This bill is a union buster, plain and simple. I think plenty of concessions could have been wrought from the unions, they've done it a thousand times before. As jettio suggests, this is a vast overreach.

There doesn't seem to be any union input into this at all, which isn't illegal but it's sure jarring. And the fact that they have asked this to be passed in a week, something that effects nearly a million jobs in the state, is even more bizarre.

The Dems skipping town is... bizarre. That Wisconsin forces this to be their version of the filibuster is hilarious in the darkest of ways.

Now they have to negotiate just to get the Dems in the chamber. Weird.

Why is it jarring? Since both political parties have sold our workers down the river our economic despair will inevitably reach the teet sucking government worker.

The governor and legislature are just reacting to reality.

We've made our bed, time to lay in it.

HonestChieffan
02-18-2011, 09:44 PM
WITI-TV, MILWAUKEE —
Supporters of Governor Scott Walker's budget repair bill are set to rally at the State Capitol Saturday afternoon. The rally is being organized by Ted Party members and a group called American Majority.

The rally will be held at the State Capitol east entrance from noon to 3 p.m. on Saturday, February 19th.

Organizers say they're expecting as many as 60,000 supporters to show up for the rally. In a release, organizers say, "It's time the voices of the Wisconsin people are heard."

Direckshun
02-18-2011, 09:46 PM
Why is it jarring? Since both political parties have sold our workers down the river our economic despair will inevitably reach the teet sucking government worker.

Ummm... that doesn't exactly mean you all but eradicate unions.

Cutting a deal with unions would include basically standard reductions in what the government can provide for these people. That's sensible and that kind of behavior has a looooong track record of being a successful strategy for Republicans and for union-reliant workers.

This is set up to become a lose-lose, I fear.

mlyonsd
02-18-2011, 09:55 PM
Ummm... that doesn't exactly mean you all but eradicate unions.

Cutting a deal with unions would include basically standard reductions in what the government can provide for these people. That's sensible and that kind of behavior has a looooong track record of being a successful strategy for Republicans and for union-reliant workers.

This is set up to become a lose-lose, I fear.

Free market labor unions are one thing but I see government unions as a completely different animal. I'm not sure why the latter is necessary when you have federal representatives covering your ass.

mnchiefsguy
02-18-2011, 10:04 PM
Unfortunately the children of Wisconsin get to suffer, since their teachers are calling sick en mass, so they can go protest. I lost sympathy for them at that point. I think the Governor would be entitled to treat the teachers like Reagan did the air traffic controllers in the 80's if they do not go back to work soon.

patteeu
02-18-2011, 10:09 PM
Ummm... that doesn't exactly mean you all but eradicate unions.

Cutting a deal with unions would include basically standard reductions in what the government can provide for these people. That's sensible and that kind of behavior has a looooong track record of being a successful strategy for Republicans and for union-reliant workers.

This is set up to become a lose-lose, I fear.

Why shouldn't we eradicate public employee unions? That's not what's happening here, but I don't see why it would be a bad thing.

HonestChieffan
02-18-2011, 10:12 PM
Unfortunately the children of Wisconsin get to suffer, since their teachers are calling sick en mass, so they can go protest. I lost sympathy for them at that point. I think the Governor would be entitled to treat the teachers like Reagan did the air traffic controllers in the 80's if they do not go back to work soon.

Most teachers are not protesting. They stay home, the schools are closed because of the ones who are "striking"...that is what it is. The crowds are activists and bussed in people by DNC and others as well as union people who have nothing to do with the issue, and school kids who were brought into this thing. It is a stunt supported by unions and the dnc.

The kids suffer, the parents who have to deal with kids out of school while they go to work to earn a living are paying the price.

The democrat elected officials have shown they have no shame.

mnchiefsguy
02-18-2011, 10:14 PM
Most teachers are not protesting. They stay home, the schools are closed because of the ones who are "striking"...that is what it is. The crowds are activists and bussed in people by DNC and others as well as union people who have nothing to do with the issue, and school kids who were brought into this thing. It is a stunt supported by unions and the dnc.

The kids suffer, the parents who have to deal with kids out of school while they go to work to earn a living are paying the price.

The democrat elected officials have shown they have no shame.

Exactly. No kids in school, and how many parents had to use up vacation/sick/leave, etc. to take care of their kids so the teachers could protest. The unions and the democrats in this case should be ashamed of themselves.

HonestChieffan
02-18-2011, 10:17 PM
Exactly. No kids in school, and how many parents had to use up vacation/sick/leave, etc. to take care of their kids so the teachers could protest. The unions and the democrats in this case should be ashamed of themselves.


http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0211/DNC_playing_role_in_Wisconsin_protests.html

Obama's people are behind a lot of the protests. Community organizer indeed.

HonestChieffan
02-18-2011, 10:19 PM
<object width="518" height="419"><param name="movie" value="http://www.eyeblast.tv/public/eyeblast.swf?v=hdqG6U8zVr" /><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true" /><embed type="application/x-shockwave-flash" src="http://www.eyeblast.tv/public/eyeblast.swf?v=hdqG6U8zVr" allowfullscreen="true" width="518" height="419" /></object>

HonestChieffan
02-18-2011, 10:19 PM
Dont let the media fool you. This is organized from the highest levels. Pray for the kids.

Jaric
02-18-2011, 10:27 PM
This who episode pretty clearly demonstrates why we will never pay of this debt. The only way to do that is to cut spending, and there are simply too many people invested in the system who are dependent upon it, to just let it go quietly.

HonestChieffan
02-18-2011, 10:28 PM
http://weaselzippers.us/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/Pelosi_Joker.jpg

(The Hill) — House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) said she supports the Democratic state senators in Wisconsin who left the state to stop a vote on curbing collective bargaining rights for unionized public employees.

After earlier voicing solidarity with the workers protesting against Gov. Scott Walker (R) in Wisconsin, Pelosi told The Hill she also stands behind the state legislators who fled and are now reportedly being sought by police.

“I saw some of them speak on TV, and they were very proud of the action that they took. I’m very proud of what they are doing,” she said. “They’re standing up for the rights of America’s workingmen and women to have a voice at the table about their jobs and their futures, so yes, I support them.”

But whether House Democrats would ever leave Washington to hold up legislation in Congress is another matter.

Pelosi laughed off a question about whether she would ever lead House Democrats out of the capital in protest of the Republican majority. “Would we have to go to another country?” she quipped. “We’re national.”

The Democratic senators in Wisconsin left to deny Republicans a quorum to hold a vote on the contested legislation. In Washington, House Democrats have railed against the GOP’s proposed budget cuts, but they have a Democratic Senate majority and President Obama as a backstop.

alnorth
02-18-2011, 11:09 PM
Ummm... that doesn't exactly mean you all but eradicate unions.

Cutting a deal with unions would include basically standard reductions in what the government can provide for these people. That's sensible and that kind of behavior has a looooong track record of being a successful strategy for Republicans and for union-reliant workers.

This is set up to become a lose-lose, I fear.

unions should not exist for government employees. They often give big money and help elect legislators who are then shamelessly whored out to the union.

In a traditional union, the union has to be at least cognizant of the health of the company, that if they take too much it could fail and they all lose their jobs. Management also has to push back for the same reason.

When you "negotiate" with the government, especially when the majority is bought by the union, no one has to care about affording the benefits that are demanded. If we run out of money, screw the taxpayers, they can afford to pay more, all that matters is paying off the union, who then ensures their corrupt partners in the legislature have the money to be re-elected.

Public employee unions should not exist because they do not have to care about the taxpayer.

jettio
02-18-2011, 11:10 PM
Dont let the media fool you. This is organized from the highest levels. Pray for the kids.

Pray for the kids?

Why do you think that kids are facing anything consequential that it would be necessary to pray for them?

Garcia Bronco
02-18-2011, 11:52 PM
lol at these protesters. the increase on benefits is to 12 percent...still 8 percent less on average than the public sector. This is in part to save a 3.5 billion shortfall in the 2012 fiscal year that would add to a state already 17 billion in the red.

SNR
02-19-2011, 03:09 PM
You know... sometimes you really have to sit back and laugh at all the bullshit that seeps out like toxic waste through a leaky barrel when it comes to situations like the one in Wisconsin...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dave-zirin/aaron-rodgers-we-need-you_b_825507.html

I believe in athletes having the freedom and space to take political stands without having to worry about media and corporate backlash. I believe in athletes having the freedom and space to not take political stands if that's their choice. But I also believe that there are moments in history when silence itself becomes a political stand, a luxury we cannot afford. For Aaron Rodgers, the Green Bay Packers Super Bowl MVP quarterback, this is one of those moments.

I'm just returning from Madison, Wisconsin where tens of thousands of teachers, nurses, unionists, and students, are fighting for their very lives. Day after day, I saw the crowds swell as people arrived on buses from across the state and even across the country. I saw feeder marches of 5,000 high school students chanting with an unguarded, proud fury you'd never know today's teenagers possessed. I saw people dressed like King Tut with a banner saying they would "protest like Egyptians." I spoke to nurses choking with rage that they would have to take second jobs or go onto food stamps if business as usual took place in the Capitol Building. I saw thousands sing the Wisconsin Badger football fight song, ending with "Fight Fight Fight and We'll WIN THE DAY!" and they weren't talking about football.

They're trying to stop their Governor Scott Walker, also known as "The Mubarak of the Midwest", from gutting their pay, benefits, and very right to collectively bargain. Walker has also threatened to bring in the National Guard if he can't get his way. For those who don't know, the budget "deficit", Walker is so concerned about is a result of tax breaks he handed to out-of-state corporate donors, gutting the state's surplus. Now he wants the workers to pay.

Already, five current and former members of the Super Bowl Champ Green Bay Packers, have spoken out against the bill. As Ed Garvey, the former head of the NFL Players Association, and proud Wisconsinite, said to me, "More Packers have now stood up for Wisconsin workers than DC democrats!" Already, the NFL Players Association has issued their own statement in support of Wisconsin's working families. We must assume, that Aaron Rodgers, as the leader of the Packers and as the team's union rep, has his fingerprints on both of these statements. But what we don't have yet, is Aaron Rodgers' voice.

Rodgers is a graduate of Cal Berkeley so he's hardly unfamiliar with the power of protest. He's, also according to my sources at the NFLPA, a fantastic union rep so he's hardly unfamiliar with the critical necessity of collective bargaining rights. The crowds in Madison are aware of this as well. I saw dozens of Rodgers jerseys as well as signs that read, "Aaron Rodgers is a union rep!"

Gov. Walker wants a state where anything that's not nailed down is for sale to multinational corporations. If he had his druthers, Lambeau Field would be renamed Kraft Macaroni and Cheesehead Stadium. Or he would just sell the team to Los Angeles for 50 cents on the dollar. He's that craven, that unprincipled, that callous about the future for the people of Wisconsin.

Walker also says he has the "quiet majority" of Wisconsinites on his side. Given the unique place the Packers hold in the hearts of cheeseheads and given their status as a non-profit, fan owned team, there are no words for how much it would mean if Rodgers would issue a personal statement of solidarity. Last September, Rodgers said to the Sporting News, "Hopefully the legacy I'll leave is one of somebody who was of high character, did things the right way, cared about his teammates, was coachable and was good to the community he lived in." If that's what Rodgers wants his legacy to be, the time is now. Aaron, your community needs you. Time to get your Berkeley-on and bring it to Badger-Land. One press conference, one quote, hell, one tweet. Anything but silence.

patteeu
02-19-2011, 03:28 PM
...fighting for their very lives...

ROFL

The Rick
02-19-2011, 03:53 PM
For those who don't know, the budget "deficit", Walker is so concerned about is a result of tax breaks he handed to out-of-state corporate donors, gutting the state's surplus. Now he wants the workers to pay.
ROFL

Going from a surplus to a $3 billion deficit...that's one heck of an accomplishment for a Governor who's only been on the job for 6 weeks!

What a croc. Absolutely, unequivocally false. The Democratic leadership in this state has been ducking this problem for the past 8 years. Walker promised to fix it and that's how he won the election. Now, he's following through on his promises...what a novel idea.

Guru
02-19-2011, 03:57 PM
This whole thing is completely fucked up. the governor is screwing up, the teachers are screwing up. The senate is screwing up.

Just one complete clusterfuck.

Guru
02-19-2011, 03:59 PM
ROFL

Going from a surplus to a $3 billion deficit...that's one heck of an accomplishment for a Governor who's only been on the job for 6 weeks!

What a croc. Absolutely, unequivocally false. The Democratic leadership in this state has been ducking this problem for the past 8 years. Walker promised to fix it and that's how he won the election. Now, he's following through on his promises...what a novel idea.

the fix he is proposing is over the top but to say the deficit was his fault is just plain dumb.

patteeu
02-19-2011, 04:23 PM
the fix he is proposing is over the top but to say the deficit was his fault is just plain dumb.

It's not over the top. He should probably be even more aggressive.

googlegoogle
02-19-2011, 06:50 PM
If you forfeit then you lose.

Why allow such stupid rules that say you can leave and delay any votes?

orange
02-19-2011, 07:02 PM
If you forfeit then you lose.

Why allow such stupid rules that say you can leave and delay any votes?

You might want to look up "checks and balances."

mnchiefsguy
02-19-2011, 07:14 PM
You might want to look up "checks and balances."

Fleeing the state when your party is going to lose a legislative vote is not checks and balances....it is cowardice plain and simple. A bill has been proposed, the legislators job is to debate the merits of the bill, and then vote yeah or nay, and if the vote is yeah, then send it to the Governor, plain and simple. By not debating, not voting, and hiding in a five star resort in another state, these legislators are in dereliction of their duty.

orange
02-19-2011, 07:21 PM
Fleeing the state when your party is going to lose a legislative vote is not checks and balances....it is cowardice plain and simple. A bill has been proposed, the legislators job is to debate the merits of the bill, and then vote yeah or nay, and if the vote is yeah, then send it to the Governor, plain and simple. By not debating, not voting, and hiding in a five star resort in another state, these legislators are in dereliction of their duty.

B.S. Quorum requirements have been a part of Parliamentary procedure from the very beginning. It's intended that nothing gets rammed through over strident objections. You say it's "deriliction of their duty" - WHAT duty? Name the law.

[edit] According to Robert's Rules of Order Newly Revised, Tenth Edition, the current edition of Robert's Rules of Order, the "requirement for a quorum is protection against totally unrepresentative action in the name of the body by an unduly small number of persons."

mnchiefsguy
02-19-2011, 07:32 PM
B.S. Quorum requirements have been a part of Parliamentary procedure from the very beginning. It's intended that nothing gets rammed through over strident objections. You say it's "deriliction of their duty" - WHAT duty? Name the law.

[edit] According to Robert's Rules of Order Newly Revised, Tenth Edition, the current edition of Robert's Rules of Order, the "requirement for a quorum is protection against totally unrepresentative action in the name of the body by an unduly small number of persons."

Just because it is a Parliamentary Procedure does not mean it is morally right. They are avoiding their responsibility, and are clearly not supporting the constitution of the state of Wisconsin, as they are sworn to do. This is not unrepresentative action, this is avoiding a vote that they know they will lose. The Governor was duly elected, proposed legislation, and it is the duty of the legislative branch to vote on it....but since the Democrats don't agree with it, they will just take their ball and run to Illinois. The minority in this case is trying to tyrannically impose its will on the majority, and it is morally wrong on their part.

mnchiefsguy
02-19-2011, 07:34 PM
If the Democrats had any moral fiber, they would stand and vote....if they have a problem with losing, then campaign harder and win the majority, then they can vote in what they want.

This is not a case of the majority abusing the minority, this is a case of the minority abusing parliamentary procedure and damaging the state as a result.

orange
02-19-2011, 07:40 PM
Just because it is a Parliamentary Procedure does not mean it is morally right.

If it was the U.S. Senate, for example, they'd simply filibuster - you know, like the Republicans have done dozens of times in the last two years, and promise more to come.

We'll return to this discussion of "morally right," I'm sure.

mnchiefsguy
02-19-2011, 07:42 PM
If it was the U.S. Senate, for example, they'd simply filibuster - you know, like the Republicans have done dozens of times in the last two years, and promise more to come.

We'll return to this discussion of "morally right," I'm sure.

While I am not a fan of the filibuster, a filibuster can be broken by a VOTE. When the legislators run and hide like a cowards, no vote can be taken, and the democratic process is damaged as a result.

patteeu
02-19-2011, 07:51 PM
B.S. Quorum requirements have been a part of Parliamentary procedure from the very beginning. It's intended that nothing gets rammed through over strident objections. You say it's "deriliction of their duty" - WHAT duty? Name the law.

[edit] According to Robert's Rules of Order Newly Revised, Tenth Edition, the current edition of Robert's Rules of Order, the "requirement for a quorum is protection against totally unrepresentative action in the name of the body by an unduly small number of persons."

You misrepresent the purpose of quorum requirements and I think you know it. The quorum requirement prevents a small number of legislators from getting together and doing business before the rest of the body has a chance to get there either because they are somehow prevented from appearing (eg they're snowed in somewhere) or because they haven't been informed. It's not intended to be a flee the state to paralyze the government tool.

mnchiefsguy
02-19-2011, 07:56 PM
You misrepresent the purpose of quorum requirements and I think you know it. The quorum requirement prevents a small number of legislators from getting together and doing business before the rest of the body has a chance to get there either because they are somehow prevented from appearing (eg they're snowed in somewhere) or because they haven't been informed. It's not intended to be a flee the state to paralyze the government tool.

Exactly. Patteau said it faster and better than me. They are misusing parliamentary procedure, which is an abuse of power. Hopefully the voters of Wisconsin will hold them accountable at the ballot box.

orange
02-19-2011, 08:09 PM
You misrepresent the purpose of quorum requirements and I think you know it.

No, I don't, and I think you know it. It's to prevent highly controversial measures from being enacted without broad enough support.

Did Missouri ever secede from the Union? Was it a Confederate state?

p.s. And I think Robert's Rules of Order is a lot better source than you, however much your TPer tagalongs here may rep you.

LiveSteam
02-19-2011, 08:12 PM
No, I don't, and I think you know it.

Did Missouri ever secede from the Union? Was it a Confederate state?

NO not that im aware of. The state had slaves. Jesse James family had as many as 14. Mizoo kinda had its own in state war at the same time.

In the Civil War, Missouri was a border state that sent men, armies, generals, and supplies to both opposing sides, had its star on both flags, had separate governments representing each side, and endured a neighbor-against-neighbor intrastate war within the larger national war.

By the end of the Civil War Missouri had supplied nearly 110,000 troops for the Union Army and about 40,000 troops for the Confederate Army. There were battles and skirmishes in all areas of the state, from the Iowa and Illinois border in the northeast to the edge of the state in the southeast and southwest on the Arkansas border. Counting minor engagements, actions and skirmishes, Missouri saw over 1,200 distinct fights. Only Virginia and Tennessee exceeded Missouri in the number of clashes within the state boundaries

orange
02-19-2011, 08:15 PM
NO not that im aware of. The state had slaves. Jesse James family had as many as 14. Mizoo kinda had its own in state war at the same time.

Look into it a little. I asked the question here for a reason.

hint: Claiborne Fox Jackson

orange
02-19-2011, 08:17 PM
While I am not a fan of the filibuster, a filibuster can be broken by a VOTE.

And any one of those Wisconsin Democrats can return and make a quorum. Hallelujah! Democracy is Saved!

mnchiefsguy
02-19-2011, 10:02 PM
And any one of those Wisconsin Democrats can return and make a quorum. Hallelujah! Democracy is Saved!

But none of them have the moral fiber to do it. Instead they run and hide and pout because they cannot get their way. The Governor of Wisconsin and a majority of the legislator supports the bill...that is broad enough support. Especially considering the Governor campaigned on this very issue very heavily. The people knew that he would be submitting this, and they elected him anyway. This easily meets the standard of broad support.

mnchiefsguy
02-19-2011, 10:26 PM
No, I don't, and I think you know it. It's to prevent highly controversial measures from being enacted without broad enough support.

Did Missouri ever secede from the Union? Was it a Confederate state?

p.s. And I think Robert's Rules of Order is a lot better source than you, however much your TPer tagalongs here may rep you.

Technically no, Missouri did not secede. See, before Jackson had his vote in Neosho, Missouri, the Missouri Constitutional Convention had already voted to stay in the union. Just because a few Confederate sympathizers got together and "voted" to secede from the union does not make it happen (especially since the Governor's office had been declared vacant and the Legislature had been declared null and void by said Constitutional Convention)...this is drastically different than what is happening in Wisconsin. Missouri was never considered a Confederate state by the Union, as evidenced by the fact that Missouri was never excluded from Congress, was not included in the Emancipation Proclamation (which only applied to Confederate States) and Missouri was not punished during the Reconstruction Era like the Southern States.

Mizzou_8541
02-19-2011, 10:31 PM
Technically no, Missouri did not secede. See, before Jackson had his vote in Neosho, Missouri, the Missouri Constitutional Convention had already voted to stay in the union. Just because a few Confederate sympathizers got together and "voted" to secede from the union does not make it happen (especially since the Governor's office had been declared vacant and the Legislature had been declared null and void by said Constitutional Convention)...this is drastically different than what is happening in Wisconsin. Missouri was never considered a Confederate state by the Union, as evidenced by the fact that Missouri was never excluded from Congress, was not included in the Emancipation Proclamation (which only applied to Confederate States) and Missouri was not punished during the Reconstruction Era like the Southern States.

Bad move. Orange does not like facts. Revisionist history is his M.O.

orange
02-20-2011, 01:00 AM
Technically no, Missouri did not secede. See, before Jackson had his vote in Neosho, Missouri, the Missouri Constitutional Convention had already voted to stay in the union...

The point being... this is far from the first "Quorum Controversy." Missouri has its own famous one. And you know it, even though you left that detail out for some reason. Fortunately, historians are less prone to care about preserving your ridiculous point and happily tell the whole story, historians like Christopher Phillips for example.

orange
02-20-2011, 01:07 AM
Bad move. Orange does not like facts. Revisionist history is his M.O.

I'd ask you WTF you're talking about, but you don't have any more clue about that than anyone else.

mnchiefsguy
02-20-2011, 08:32 AM
The point being... this is far from the first "Quorum Controversy." Missouri has its own famous one. And you know it, even though you left that detail out for some reason. Fortunately, historians are less prone to care about preserving your ridiculous point and happily tell the whole story, historians like Christopher Phillips for example.

Considering it is not really studied or even widely discussed, the Missouri "quorum controversy" is a historical footnote at best....the Constitutional Convention had already spoken, and even if the legislature had a quorum, it no longer had the authority to do anything anyway. This was the Civil War.

Besides, the other legislators who supported the union cause were not invited to the vote. It was not a situation where they chose not to show up to stall the democratic process. The Confederates met in secret and tried to circumvent the will of the people. No one but the Confederates acknowledged the Neosho vote. Again, if Missouri had been a Confederate state, it would have lost its representation in Congress, and been subject to the punishment of Reconstruction.

This example shows why quorum rules are necessary, I suppose. But in this case, the minority is meeting in secret and trying to pass legislation (which did not count since it had already been overruled by a Constitutional Convention). In Wisconsin, the Democrats are abusing the process, and using the quorum rules for a different purpose. But they are like the Confederates in one key way...they are circumventing the will of the people.

chiefsnorth
02-20-2011, 08:34 AM
Remember after 2008, all the talk was "I won" "elections have consequences" "get over it".

I guess that only applies when you guy wins, eh Obama?

Mizzou_8541
02-20-2011, 08:39 AM
I'd ask you WTF you're talking about, but you don't have any more clue about that than anyone else.

Cool, bro. :thumb: You are the only one who does know WTF you are talking about, I'm sure.:rolleyes:

thecoffeeguy
02-20-2011, 09:32 AM
Look at this shit.

<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="640" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/j8fQZPapyAI" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>



Busted is all I can say.
Wonder what Obama and the other liberals will say. Probably like it was a setup or something. Some bullshit excuse as always.

patteeu
02-20-2011, 09:35 AM
The point being... this is far from the first "Quorum Controversy." Missouri has its own famous one. And you know it, even though you left that detail out for some reason. Fortunately, historians are less prone to care about preserving your ridiculous point and happily tell the whole story, historians like Christopher Phillips for example.

I don't see how any of this helps your view of why quorum rules exist.

googlegoogle
02-20-2011, 05:51 PM
Mr Kotter = teacher or government worker.

I guess that's why he's handing out the neg reps for this thread.

You can suck my D**K.

Royal Fanatic
02-20-2011, 08:55 PM
B.S. Quorum requirements have been a part of Parliamentary procedure from the very beginning. It's intended that nothing gets rammed through over strident objections. You say it's "deriliction of their duty" - WHAT duty? Name the law.

[edit] According to Robert's Rules of Order Newly Revised, Tenth Edition, the current edition of Robert's Rules of Order, the "requirement for a quorum is protection against totally unrepresentative action in the name of the body by an unduly small number of persons."
Quorum requirements are not intended to allow a minority to impose their will on the majority. They are intended to PREVENT a minority from imposing their will on the majority.

When the Democratic lawmakers flee the state in order to prevent a quorum because they know they will lose a roll-call vote, they (the minority) are imposing their will upon the majority.

Your statement about quorum requirements and "strident objections" is flat out wrong.

Royal Fanatic
02-20-2011, 09:02 PM
Of course, a debate about the meaning of quorum requirements misses the point entirely.

The problem here is that Governor Walker has a real problem that he has to solve, but he grossly miscalculated when he thought it would be possible to eliminate collective bargaining for state government employees so quickly and so abruptly.

It doesn't do any good to start a battle that you can't possibly win. Rightly or wrongly, all union members will see this as an assault on unions in general, and they will do whatever it takes to defeat this and to demonize the governor in the process. This is going to be a bloodbath (I mean that figuratively, of course).

If the governor wants to eliminate collective bargaining for public employees, he needs to work on getting a majority of voters to understand why he's doing what he's doing, and he needs to work on getting that same majority to really buy into it. It's not enough to win a majority in the legislative branch and then start ramming things down the opposition's throat.

He is making the same mistake that Obama made with health care. When you simply say "elections have consequences" and then you implement an incredibly unpopular agenda, you mobilize an extremely ferocious opposition.

patteeu
02-21-2011, 01:51 AM
Of course, a debate about the meaning of quorum requirements misses the point entirely.

The problem here is that Governor Walker has a real problem that he has to solve, but he grossly miscalculated when he thought it would be possible to eliminate collective bargaining for state government employees so quickly and so abruptly.

It doesn't do any good to start a battle that you can't possibly win. Rightly or wrongly, all union members will see this as an assault on unions in general, and they will do whatever it takes to defeat this and to demonize the governor in the process. This is going to be a bloodbath (I mean that figuratively, of course).

If the governor wants to eliminate collective bargaining for public employees, he needs to work on getting a majority of voters to understand why he's doing what he's doing, and he needs to work on getting that same majority to really buy into it. It's not enough to win a majority in the legislative branch and then start ramming things down the opposition's throat.

He is making the same mistake that Obama made with health care. When you simply say "elections have consequences" and then you implement an incredibly unpopular agenda, you mobilize an extremely ferocious opposition.

Have you seen polling data from Wisconsin that says the public is against him on this?

King_Chief_Fan
02-21-2011, 08:30 AM
I give the protesters and all others involved until Wednesday to get back to work or I fire them and replace them.

The Mad Crapper
02-21-2011, 08:33 AM
I give the protesters and all others involved until Wednesday to get back to work or I fire them and replace them.

Today is a scheduled day off for them, any way. Let them ruin their day off, then fire them. LMAO

alnorth
02-21-2011, 12:28 PM
There is a very major possible storyline that is not being covered very well and I've only seen whispered about. This story could end dramatically tomorrow.

Everyone is presuming this 20-vote quorum in the WI state senate applies to all legislation. It does not, only for the budget. You need a simple majority for a quorum to pass anything else. Removing the right of public employee unions to collectively bargain on health care and pensions is not a budget item. It was attached to a budget bill, but it didn't have to be. Republicans are cryptically saying they may vote on other legislation tomorrow.

At least one democrat has talked about the WI Senate possibly attaching the collective bargaining measure to another unrelated bill and voting on it without them. This could be why the governor and the WI GOP are so hell-bent on not giving in, if this is true, then they already know they can't be stopped.

Absent Wis. Dem frets about GOP vote on union bill (http://www.wqow.com/Global/story.asp?S=14069581)

mnchiefsguy
02-21-2011, 01:29 PM
There is a very major possible storyline that is not being covered very well and I've only seen whispered about. This story could end dramatically tomorrow.

Everyone is presuming this 20-vote quorum in the WI state senate applies to all legislation. It does not, only for the budget. You need a simple majority for a quorum to pass anything else. Removing the right of public employee unions to collectively bargain on health care and pensions is not a budget item. It was attached to a budget bill, but it didn't have to be. Republicans are cryptically saying they may vote on other legislation tomorrow.

At least one democrat has talked about the WI Senate possibly attaching the collective bargaining measure to another unrelated bill and voting on it without them. This could be why the governor and the WI GOP are so hell-bent on not giving in, if this is true, then they already know they can't be stopped.

Absent Wis. Dem frets about GOP vote on union bill (http://www.wqow.com/Global/story.asp?S=14069581)

I saw a snipet on this and was wondering if it was possible to attach to another bill, or if it had to be attached to a budget bill since it had budget implications. Hopefully the Governor and the GOP have the balls to actually attach it to other legislation and do the will of the people.

Pitt Gorilla
02-21-2011, 01:40 PM
Tea Party plan to impersonate union protestors:

http://thepoliticalcarnival.net/2011/02/20/tea-party-plan-to-impersonate-union-protesters-even-if-it-becomes-known-that-we-are-plants-the-quotes-pictures-will-linger-as-defacto-truth/

King_Chief_Fan
02-21-2011, 01:45 PM
There is a very major possible storyline that is not being covered very well and I've only seen whispered about. This story could end dramatically tomorrow.

Everyone is presuming this 20-vote quorum in the WI state senate applies to all legislation. It does not, only for the budget. You need a simple majority for a quorum to pass anything else. Removing the right of public employee unions to collectively bargain on health care and pensions is not a budget item. It was attached to a budget bill, but it didn't have to be. Republicans are cryptically saying they may vote on other legislation tomorrow.

At least one democrat has talked about the WI Senate possibly attaching the collective bargaining measure to another unrelated bill and voting on it without them. This could be why the governor and the WI GOP are so hell-bent on not giving in, if this is true, then they already know they can't be stopped.

Absent Wis. Dem frets about GOP vote on union bill (http://www.wqow.com/Global/story.asp?S=14069581)

Looks like the Repubs learned a thing or to from the fearless leader.

The Mad Crapper
02-21-2011, 02:01 PM
Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker explains what he's done that has public sector leeches screeching in unison with Marxist revolutionaries:

http://www.moonbattery.com/archives/2011/02/scott-walker-ma.html

alnorth
02-21-2011, 02:14 PM
I saw a snipet on this and was wondering if it was possible to attach to another bill, or if it had to be attached to a budget bill since it had budget implications. Hopefully the Governor and the GOP have the balls to actually attach it to other legislation and do the will of the people.

The media finally started jumping on the story an hour ago. It seems everyone pretty much agrees that the option is definitely available.

Unfortunately, someone asked the WI Senate Leader if they were going to vote on a stand-alone union bill, and he said no (http://www.forbes.com/feeds/ap/2011/02/21/general-us-wisconsin-budget-unions_8318634.html).

mnchiefsguy
02-21-2011, 02:27 PM
The media finally started jumping on the story an hour ago. It seems everyone pretty much agrees that the option is definitely available.

Unfortunately, someone asked the WI Senate Leader if they were going to vote on a stand-alone union bill, and he said no (http://www.forbes.com/feeds/ap/2011/02/21/general-us-wisconsin-budget-unions_8318634.html).

The article also says this measure has to pass by Friday in order for the state to have enough to time to restructure its debt, which is a key component in Walker's plan as well. If nothing happens in the next day or two, I would not be surprised to see some action late Thursday or Friday.

Chief Henry
02-21-2011, 02:27 PM
The media finally started jumping on the story an hour ago. It seems everyone pretty much agrees that the option is definitely available.

Unfortunately, someone asked the WI Senate Leader if they were going to vote on a stand-alone union bill, and he said no (http://www.forbes.com/feeds/ap/2011/02/21/general-us-wisconsin-budget-unions_8318634.html).



Darn it...:evil:

suzzer99
02-21-2011, 02:56 PM
I worked at a union shop, the KC Metro bus company in fact, for like half of one summer when I was in HS - doing landscaping and general trash cleanup. I have never been around a lazier group of people. If they got 2 hours of actual work done in a day it was a miracle. There were 2 of us doing that summer job and it was the same for us. Our punishment if we got our work done too fast was either sheer boredom or they'd find some nasty job for us to do. We actually had a guy half-jokingly coach us in how to do everything (working, walking, talking about stuff) really really slowly.

Instead we just found places to sleep all over the compound. Until we got caught one day completely passed out on one of the big KCI shuttle buses, then the job was no fun after that.

Personally for me having to go to a job like that day-in-day-out would be a living hell. I don't think most people start out looking to slack off 80% of the time. But a few years of a job like that, where everyone else is doing it, and a lot of them adjust. Either that or the truly lazy people gravitate towards stuff like that.

My Mom worked for them and ended up doing arbitration for management side. She would come home with horror stories. I remember one about not being able to fire a union driver who literally got caught walking off the premises with an entire fare box full of coins.

Anyway I do think public sector unions are a bad idea. You take away the profit motive, combined with the downward pull on productivity of a union, it's just a recipe for disaster.

Saul Good
02-21-2011, 03:13 PM
No, I don't, and I think you know it. It's to prevent highly controversial measures from being enacted without broad enough support.

Did Missouri ever secede from the Union? Was it a Confederate state?

p.s. And I think Robert's Rules of Order is a lot better source than you, however much your TPer tagalongs here may rep you.

Robert's Rules of Order is the definitive source on this topic, and it clearly demonstrates, in your own quote no less, that this is not the purpose for which a quorum requirement is intended.

This is not the case of "an unduly small number of persons" trying to sneak something through. You know that, though.

alnorth
02-21-2011, 04:41 PM
In case anyone is wondering whether the quorum rule can be changed, the answer is apparently no, because it is not a Senate rule. It is in the WI constitution.


Article VIII, §8
Vote on fiscal bills; quorum. Section 8. On the passage in either house of the legislature of any law which imposes, continues or renews a tax, or creates a debt or charge, or makes, continues or renews an appropriation of public or trust money, or releases, discharges or commutes a claim or demand of the state, the question shall be taken by yeas and nays, which shall be duly entered on the journal; and three-fifths of all the members elected to such house shall in all such cases be required to constitute a quorum therein.

Reading that, it also looks pretty clear to me that the collective bargaining removal can be voted on separately without the 3/5 quorum.

HonestChieffan
02-21-2011, 08:36 PM
Call in the thugs...NY Teamsters go to Madison....http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/2011/02/21/2011-02-21_new_yorks_teamsters_local_237_to_bus_in_support_to_union_protestors_in_wisconsin.html

alnorth
02-21-2011, 10:28 PM
Based on this video (yeah the interviewer obviously has an agenda, ignore that and listen to the caller), it doesn't sound like all 14 dems are going to stick it out for the long haul. This guy seems to be projecting the attitude that they made their point and drew attention to the bill.

Fugitive Wisconsin Dem: We’ll probably be back “sooner rather than later” (http://hotair.com/archives/2011/02/21/fugitive-wisconsin-dem-well-probably-be-back-sooner-rather-than-later/)

The Rick
02-22-2011, 10:12 AM
Based on this video (yeah the interviewer obviously has an agenda, ignore that and listen to the caller), it doesn't sound like all 14 dems are going to stick it out for the long haul. This guy seems to be projecting the attitude that they made their point and drew attention to the bill.

Fugitive Wisconsin Dem: We’ll probably be back “sooner rather than later” (http://hotair.com/archives/2011/02/21/fugitive-wisconsin-dem-well-probably-be-back-sooner-rather-than-later/)
I'm starting to think this wasn't a very well thought out plan by these Democrats. Their only hope was for Governor Walker to back down, which clearly wasn't going to happen. The result is that they look foolish. :shake:

Cave Johnson
02-22-2011, 10:33 AM
A caveat.... I'm for pension reform and bringing the public/private total compensation in line. But Walker is going about it in a manner that's purely political.

No bid contracts for the sale of state power plants (to Koch?). Tax breaks for those making above $150/300K. Exempting the less reliably Democratic unions (when Mitch Daniels and Chris Christie did no such thing).

Total f'ing garbage.

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2011/02/how-does-this-help-balance-wisconsins-budget.html

The Mad Crapper
02-22-2011, 10:35 AM
(to Koch?).

What is it with this Koch brothers thing? :spock:

Cave Johnson
02-22-2011, 10:45 AM
What is it with this Koch brothers thing? :spock:

Because they own the C. Reiss Coal Company, which their site calls "a leading supplier of coal used to generate power."

Not really a huge stretch to suggest Koch is looking to horizontally integrate by ripping off Wisconsin taxpayers.

patteeu
02-22-2011, 10:53 AM
Because they own the C. Reiss Coal Company, which their site calls "a leading supplier of coal used to generate power."

Not really a huge stretch to suggest Koch is looking to horizontally integrate by ripping off Wisconsin taxpayers.

Why did you call it "Koch" instead of "C. Reiss Coal Company"? Do you regularly refer to companies by the names of their top stock holders?

Cave Johnson
02-22-2011, 10:56 AM
Why did you call it "Koch" instead of "C. Reiss Coal Company"? Do you regularly refer to companies by the names of their top stock holders?

Koch is the parent company, C. Reiss is the sub.

http://www.kochind.com/factsSheets/WisconsinFacts.aspx

patteeu
02-22-2011, 11:02 AM
Koch is the parent company, C. Reiss is the sub.

http://www.kochind.com/factsSheets/WisconsinFacts.aspx

Do you refer to the big 3 networks as General Electric, Westinghouse, and Disney?*

-------------------

I don't know if all 3 of these are still the right parent companies, but I'm not the one that keeps track of that stuff.

Garcia Bronco
02-22-2011, 11:03 AM
The Koch excuse. How did the Koch's convince 70 percent of the country that public Unions should not be allowed?

patteeu
02-22-2011, 11:03 AM
In other words, Pittsie, you're dodging the essential question. Why?

RaiderH8r
02-22-2011, 04:26 PM
The R's should bring a bill to make WI a Right to Work state. They don't need a quorum to pass that. Let those union coddling cowards deal with staying away to watch the bill pass or force them to come back to defeat and give Walker his quorum. Eat it union cowards.

Bambi
02-22-2011, 04:40 PM
Look at this shit.

<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="640" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/j8fQZPapyAI" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>



Busted is all I can say.
Wonder what Obama and the other liberals will say. Probably like it was a setup or something. Some bullshit excuse as always.

Think of the children!

Bwana
02-22-2011, 11:47 PM
Nutless fucking rats.

Aries Walker
02-23-2011, 02:08 AM
Yeah, the doctor notes thing might be a funny stunt for the crowd, with a joke sign or something, but if they're actually giving out phony sick notes, they should at least be investigated by . . . whoever investigates that sort of thing. You can't do that.

Cave Johnson
02-23-2011, 09:18 AM
In other words, Pittsie, you're dodging the essential question. Why?

Why what, Captain Obtuse?

healthpellets
02-23-2011, 11:03 AM
apologies if this is a repost, but it's an interesting tactic.

http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/news/116686109.html

Madison -- Senate Republicans voted Tuesday to make Democrats hiding out in Illinois come back to Wisconsin to pick up their paychecks.

The Senate Committee on Organization voted on a 3-2 party line vote, with Republicans voting in favor and Democrats against, to change Senate rules so that senators who miss two consecutive floor days can no longer have their paychecks dropped automatically into their bank accounts. The vote was taken by paper ballot, which allowed Democrats to cast their votes from out-of-state.

Democrats who have already missed two consecutive floor sessions will now have to come to get their paychecks directly from Senate Majority Leader Scott Fitzgerald (R-Juneau) on the floor of the Senate.

"The majority leader shall provide the checks only to the absent Senator and only on the floor of the Senate during a session day," the new rule reads.

Democrats have been holed up in Illinois to block a Senate vote on Gov. Scott Walker's budget repair bill.

J Diddy
02-23-2011, 11:08 AM
Yeah, the doctor notes thing might be a funny stunt for the crowd, with a joke sign or something, but if they're actually giving out phony sick notes, they should at least be investigated by . . . whoever investigates that sort of thing. You can't do that.

High school truancy counselor?

patteeu
02-23-2011, 11:19 AM
Why what, Captain Obtuse?

Why are you referring to that company as "Koch"?

mnchiefsguy
02-23-2011, 11:54 AM
apologies if this is a repost, but it's an interesting tactic.

http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/news/116686109.html

Excellent tactic, although with Obama funding them, they probably don't need their paychecks.

Cave Johnson
02-23-2011, 12:04 PM
Why are you referring to that company as "Koch"?

Your grasp on business law appears tenuous, so I'll type slowly. ;)

There's no meaningful distinction between Koch, an energy company, and their wholly-owned subsidiary (that's also in the same line of business).

patteeu
02-23-2011, 12:07 PM
Your grasp on business law appears tenuous, so I'll type slowly. ;)

There's no meaningful distinction between Koch, an energy company, and their wholly-owned subsidiary (that's also in the same line of business).

I'm asking you why, in this case, you chose to trace the company's lineage and call it by it's parent's name. You don't do that with ABC (Disney) or MSNBC (GE) or any other corporation that I've noticed. So why here? If you don't want to answer the question, just say so and I'll quit asking.

Cave Johnson
02-23-2011, 12:11 PM
I'm asking you why, in this case, you chose to trace the company's lineage and call it by it's parent's name. You don't do that with ABC (Disney) or MSNBC (GE) or any other corporation that I've noticed. So why here? If you don't want to answer the question, just say so and I'll quit asking.

Ok. Because Koch was referenced in the original link, and I only found the sub's name through subsequent research.

For the record, I imagine the reason people referred to NBC rather than GE (it's now owned by Comcast) is that they're in completely separate lines of business.

jettio
02-23-2011, 05:21 PM
Ok. Because Koch was referenced in the original link, and I only found the sub's name through subsequent research.

For the record, I imagine the reason people referred to NBC rather than GE (it's now owned by Comcast) is that they're in completely separate lines of business.

man, you sure have a way of making patteeu's accusations and innuendo fall flat.

Are you sure that you are not transgressing the bounds of moral political discussion by using the truth in some way that patteeu can not possibly understand?

Direckshun
02-23-2011, 10:35 PM
Why is it jarring? Since both political parties have sold our workers down the river our economic despair will inevitably reach the teet sucking government worker.

I think it's important to note that government workers are, by and large, not exactly "teet suckers." They put out your fires and educate your kids. Have some respect for people with dignity. Not everything needs to be broiled down into Lord of the Rings-type simplicity.

We're not dealing with orcs, for crying out loud. :p

Direckshun
02-23-2011, 10:37 PM
Free market labor unions are one thing but I see government unions as a completely different animal. I'm not sure why the latter is necessary when you have federal representatives covering your ass.

I hope by "federal representatives," you aren't talking about members of the U.S. House and the U.S. Senate.

I desperately hope.

chiefzilla1501
02-24-2011, 12:01 AM
I think it's important to note that government workers are, by and large, not exactly "teet suckers." They put out your fires and educate your kids. Have some respect for people with dignity. Not everything needs to be broiled down into Lord of the Rings-type simplicity.

We're not dealing with orcs, for crying out loud. :p

There are plenty of noble companies in the private sector too. That hasn't stopped people from screaming that they're evil and overpaid.

But the more important point is, a good chunk of government workers are not teachers, cops, or firemen. And we're paying them a shitload of money to run their businesses into the ground, so to speak. In the private sector, if you don't do your job, you get fired, because a corporation can't afford to go bankrupt and lose money. In a unionized public sector, if you don't do your job, you get a payraise and the taxpayers foot the bill when the "company" isn't pulling a profit.

I have no problem paying certain government workers who work noble professions a fair wage. I have a much bigger problem paying a good chunk of workers who have no accountability to do a good job and are sinking our country further and further into debt.

Direckshun
02-24-2011, 12:50 AM
There are plenty of noble companies in the private sector too. That hasn't stopped people from screaming that they're evil and overpaid.

So you combat the bullshit by shooting straight. Not by firing bullshit back hoping you aim better.

But the more important point is, a good chunk of government workers are not teachers, cops, or firemen. And we're paying them a shitload of money to run their businesses into the ground, so to speak. In the private sector, if you don't do your job, you get fired, because a corporation can't afford to go bankrupt and lose money. In a unionized public sector, if you don't do your job, you get a payraise and the taxpayers foot the bill when the "company" isn't pulling a profit.

I have no problem paying certain government workers who work noble professions a fair wage. I have a much bigger problem paying a good chunk of workers who have no accountability to do a good job and are sinking our country further and further into debt.

I think that's fair.

I don't think busting unions is going to fix that problem. I think it's going too far to remedy that specific issue.

chiefzilla1501
02-24-2011, 01:08 AM
So you combat the bullshit by shooting straight. Not by firing bullshit back hoping you aim better.



I think that's fair.

I don't think busting unions is going to fix that problem. I think it's going too far to remedy that specific issue.

Oh, I'm 100% with you on that. As a moderate, I don't agree with either side. The only reason I like where this is heading is that I feel like public unions and employees that are protected by these unions have gotten away with too much too long to the taxpayer's detriment. I don't want to see unions busted up, but I really hope this leads to mass action that forces them to SHAPE up.

In this stupid political world, it seems the only way to reach middle, reasonable ground these days is to have two ideologies play tug-of-war until a compromised middle ground is the only solution. And middle ground is exactly where this issue needs to hit.

patteeu
02-24-2011, 11:37 AM
I don't think busting unions is going to fix that problem. I think it's going too far to remedy that specific issue.

Why not? You don't think problems like the inability to easily fire dead wood and compensation packages that are significantly more generous than those of comparable non-union, private-sector workers are the result of public employee unions and their unnatural bargaining power?

Saul Good
02-24-2011, 12:18 PM
So you combat the bullshit by shooting straight. Not by firing bullshit back hoping you aim better.



I think that's fair.

I don't think busting unions is going to fix that problem. I think it's going too far to remedy that specific issue.

Is Walker busting unions and going too far, or is he limiting their leverage and finding a middle ground?

Its my understanding that many aspects of collective bargaining will remain intact, including salary negotiation. Am I wrong?

mnchiefsguy
02-24-2011, 12:26 PM
Is Walker busting unions and going too far, or is he limiting their leverage and finding a middle ground?

Its my understanding that many aspects of collective bargaining will remain intact, including salary negotiation. Am I wrong?

You are not wrong. The unions can still collective bargain for their wages under Walker's plan.

The Rick
02-24-2011, 12:44 PM
You are not wrong. The unions can still collective bargain for their wages under Walker's plan.

Correct.

Chief Henry
03-10-2011, 03:22 PM
Just one more vote.

Chief Henry
03-10-2011, 04:43 PM
The WISCONISN STATE Assembly just passed it 53-42. Gov. Walker to sign it SOON.

I'll drink to that tonight and watch MSNBC have a f'n cow. Ed Schultz should be EPIC tonight LOL

kcpasco
03-10-2011, 09:30 PM
You are not wrong. The unions can still collective bargain for their wages under Walker's plan.

Well isn't that just great
Goodbye 40 hour work week
Hello mandatory overtime, and I can go on and on.

Mr. Kotter
03-10-2011, 09:42 PM
Well isn't that just great
Goodbye 40 hour work week
Hello mandatory overtime, and I can go on and on.

Slave to the machine....

Come on, pal. Really. All we want is ya'all making us some major coinage.

Again. :thumb:

"Now. Git your lazy and whiney azzes to work, bia-tches!!! 60 hours a week, no overtime!!! Yeeee-Hawwwwww!!! And tell me how much you LIKE it!"

"Besides, everyone knows....you gots to sell your soul, to be making 6-figures, unless you 'uns gotz yo-self a "Business" degree. Because "Bidness" is all that matters, in this here real world. Yo?"

kcpasco
03-10-2011, 09:45 PM
Slave to the machine....

Come on, pal. Really. All we want is ya'all making us some major coinage.

Again. :thumb:

I'm just giving examples

I pass up on average 20 hours of overtime a week just so I can be home with my family. But I guess that makes me a lazy pos union worker.

headsnap
03-10-2011, 09:46 PM
I can go on and on.

please do...