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View Full Version : U.S. Issues Wisconsin anyone ? How about those Pubs trying to curbstomp the middle class?


T-post Tom
02-19-2011, 07:11 PM
Just sayin'. (& not laughing)

Bewbies
02-19-2011, 07:39 PM
Just sayin'. (& not laughing)

You're retarded.

AndChiefs
02-19-2011, 09:10 PM
Just sayin'. (& not laughing)

Don't worry. You're not the only one not laughing.

alnorth
02-19-2011, 09:25 PM
yeah, right. That is exactly what is happening: The GOP is trying to kill the WI middle class.

Ugly Duck
02-20-2011, 02:36 PM
Wall Street plundered the union pension funds, leaving the states holding the bag. Inexplicably, the right is now blaming unions for holding pension funds in the first place. Their solution? Kill the unions & further deregulate Wall Street so they are free to redistribute even MORE wealth from the middle class to the top 1%. Oh yeah sure - that oughta fix everything.

banyon
02-20-2011, 03:08 PM
yeah, right. That is exactly what is happening: The GOP is trying to kill the WI middle class.

Not intentionally, anyway.

vailpass
02-20-2011, 03:20 PM
Don't you hate when newly elected government officials try to put into action the policies for which the people elected them?

Okie_Apparition
02-20-2011, 03:41 PM
You fat azzed, lazy, greedy, dipshits have ruined the USA. You replace people with machines and wonder why no one has any money to buy your overpriced POS products.

Replace $18 an hour workers with nail guns and reciporcating saws. So they have to go to work for Lowe's at $9 an hour. Mean while with less labor and less time the house they build goes up in price. You're all a bunch of mother humping geniuses.

Taco John
02-20-2011, 04:34 PM
I love how trying to balance a budget equates to curb stomping the middle class...

HonestChieffan
02-20-2011, 04:38 PM
I love how trying to balance a budget equates to curb stomping the middle class...


The middle-class just does not know how bad off they are. They need reeducation by the uberleft.

Der Flöprer
02-20-2011, 05:04 PM
I love how Wall Street gets to rip everybody off and get away with it scott fucking free, and we're left to argue over which one of us gets to take it deeper in the ass than the other.

The 400 wealthiest individuals in this country have as much wealth as the bottom 100,000,000. That's not a fucking typo. 100 million. We got fucking raped and now we're fighting over who amongst us should feel the most pain from it. WE WERE ROBBED.

Fucking sheep. Just fall in line, and be their bitch. Egypt has a thousand times the balls as the people in this country. It's fucking disgusting.

Bewbies
02-20-2011, 05:07 PM
I love how Wall Street gets to rip everybody off and get away with it scott ****ing free, and we're left to argue over which one of us gets to take it deeper in the ass than the other.

The 400 wealthiest individuals in this country have as much wealth as the bottom 100,000,000. That's not a ****ing typo. 100 million. We got ****ing raped and now we're fighting over who amongst us should feel the most pain from it. WE WERE ROBBED.

****ing sheep. Just fall in line, and be their bitch. Egypt has a thousand times the balls as the people in this country. It's ****ing disgusting.

lambs

Bewbies
02-20-2011, 05:09 PM
It's pretty sad that people no longer accept that fact that wealth was earned, and someone worked very, very hard to get it.

Now people think someone should just hand them millions of dollars for nothing. God bless our public schools. They've been successful.

Okie_Apparition
02-20-2011, 05:20 PM
Who does the debt belong to? The poor and middle class or every buddy?

The Mad Crapper
02-20-2011, 05:26 PM
I love how Wall Street gets to rip everybody off and get away with it scott ****ing free

What does that have to do with the Governor of Wisconsin trying to balance his state budget?

chiefsnorth
02-20-2011, 05:32 PM
I love how Wall Street gets to rip everybody off and get away with it scott ****ing free, and we're left to argue over which one of us gets to take it deeper in the ass than the other.

The 400 wealthiest individuals in this country have as much wealth as the bottom 100,000,000. That's not a ****ing typo. 100 million. We got ****ing raped and now we're fighting over who amongst us should feel the most pain from it. WE WERE ROBBED.

****ing sheep. Just fall in line, and be their bitch. Egypt has a thousand times the balls as the people in this country. It's ****ing disgusting.

Based on other threads, you don't even "have the balls" to admit that you have a choice in what you will eat.

You try to shift blame on your own obesity but at the same time post an ignorant rant about people who are actually trying to do something about a problem here, trying to balance a budget.

Getting things done requires that hard decisions be made, heat taken, sleeves rolled up. the reason why many people never succed at what they say they want to do is because success looks like hard work. They/you/we dug a big hole. Getting out wont be easy, but sitting down and pouting about how much dirt there is for surewon't work.

I will defer to the people who at least attempt to solve problems, instead of blaming others and crying about it.

banyon
02-20-2011, 05:47 PM
It's pretty sad that people no longer accept that fact that wealth was earned, and someone worked very, very hard to get it.



For the 400 people he's talking about? Much of it was just inherited, sometimes over many generations. Then just sit on your a** and collect dividends, cap gains, and interest. Oh, and pay some lobbyists and marketing/propaganga firms to come up with genuine sounding names like "Americans for prosperity" to keep siphoning off the rest of whatever is left of this country.

googlegoogle
02-20-2011, 06:14 PM
Wall Street plundered the union pension funds, leaving the states holding the bag. Inexplicably, the right is now blaming unions for holding pension funds in the first place. Their solution? Kill the unions & further deregulate Wall Street so they are free to redistribute even MORE wealth from the middle class to the top 1%. Oh yeah sure - that oughta fix everything.

:spock:

Teachers unions were investing in HEDGE FUNDS.

Der Flöprer
02-20-2011, 06:21 PM
It's pretty sad that people no longer accept that fact that wealth was earned, and someone worked very, very hard to get it.

Now people think someone should just hand them millions of dollars for nothing. God bless our public schools. They've been successful.

LOL Wall St. busted their asses for that money. They had to pull the wool so far over your eyes, and it took time, man. Lots of time. Lots of effort. Stealing isn't easy. There's a lot of work in it.

Der Flöprer
02-20-2011, 06:22 PM
Based on other threads, you don't even "have the balls" to admit that you have a choice in what you will eat.

You try to shift blame on your own obesity but at the same time post an ignorant rant about people who are actually trying to do something about a problem here, trying to balance a budget.

Getting things done requires that hard decisions be made, heat taken, sleeves rolled up. the reason why many people never succed at what they say they want to do is because success looks like hard work. They/you/we dug a big hole. Getting out wont be easy, but sitting down and pouting about how much dirt there is for surewon't work.

I will defer to the people who at least attempt to solve problems, instead of blaming others and crying about it.

Deflection FTW! You're worthless. But don't feel bad, you're nowhere near alone.

Der Flöprer
02-20-2011, 06:25 PM
Let me ask you a question, what did WE do to build a big hole? What did WE do to create toxic debt, and fool everyone in the process of it? And how did WE gain from all of it? Fucking idiots. This is why I refrain from posting in this entire forum. Sooooooo many fucking morons, and it makes my blood pressure go up.

This country is filled with passive, uneducated, pussies. May as well live with it. 1 man alone can't fix it. Jersey Shore is way more important than taking the time to figure out what the fuck is going on. Hasta.

Bewbies
02-20-2011, 06:35 PM
For the 400 people he's talking about? Much of it was just inherited, sometimes over many generations. Then just sit on your a** and collect dividends, cap gains, and interest. Oh, and pay some lobbyists and marketing/propaganga firms to come up with genuine sounding names like "Americans for prosperity" to keep siphoning off the rest of whatever is left of this country.

Tell you what, when you die just give all your money to someone else. Clearly passing what you busted your ass to earn to your children is evil.

mlyonsd
02-20-2011, 06:41 PM
Let me ask you a question, what did WE do to build a big hole? What did WE do to create toxic debt, and fool everyone in the process of it? And how did WE gain from all of it? ****ing idiots. This is why I refrain from posting in this entire forum. Sooooooo many ****ing morons, and it makes my blood pressure go up.

This country is filled with passive, uneducated, pussies. May as well live with it. 1 man alone can't fix it. Jersey Shore is way more important than taking the time to figure out what the **** is going on. Hasta.

It basically can be boiled down to a snowball that develops into an avalanche that kills kids waiting for the school bus.

We evidently decided somewhere along the way that pushing off the consequences by over spending will always be paid by somebody else.

Every dollar spent by our local and state government should be measured for it's immediate value to the community/state.

Every dollar spent at the federal level should first be scrutinized for what it means to you, and then the rest of the country.

chiefsnorth
02-20-2011, 07:15 PM
This is why I refrain from posting in this entire forum.

but you couldn't help yourself today, huh.

that seems to be your opinion in all arenas of life - it's not my fault, i can't help myself, the bad guys are out to get me, etc etc

HonestChieffan
02-20-2011, 07:15 PM
Tell you what, when you die just give all your money to someone else. Clearly passing what you busted your ass to earn to your children is evil.

To the Banyons of the world confiscation of the reward of others labor and success is a good thing. Take from those who have accomplished something and give to those who do nothing.

Punish those who are a success.

whatsmynameagain
02-20-2011, 08:08 PM
To the Banyons of the world confiscation of the reward of others labor and success is a good thing. Take from those who have accomplished something and give to those who do nothing.

Punish those who are a success.

so if you inherit a fortune that makes you a success? Those you say do nothing are the ones who created the rich's wealth. Nobody got rich without fucking somebody over.

The real question is, will you enjoy communism in heaven?

gblowfish
02-20-2011, 08:28 PM
It's just another example of class warfare.
And guess what?
You Lost.

This situation in Wisconsin was funded by Kansas Own Koch Industries.

Balance the budget, but give $114 million in tax breaks to Wisconsin corporations.

whatsmynameagain
02-20-2011, 08:51 PM
It's just another example of class warfare.
And guess what?
You Lost.

This situation in Wisconsin was funded by Kansas Own Koch Industries.

Balance the budget, but give $114 million in tax breaks to Wisconsin corporations.

Corporations are making more money than ever but republicans say its not enough. They think the future of America will get by being fat, dumb, and in debt. hey, it worked for them.....

johnny961
02-20-2011, 08:52 PM
I've kinda followed the Wisconsin thing. Unfortunately, somebody is always going to feel the pain in budget cuts. What disturbed me about the whole thing is not the fact that these workers were going to be required to make concessions. It was the fact that this law, as worded, severely restricted these employees collective bargaining rights.

whatsmynameagain
02-20-2011, 09:17 PM
I've kinda followed the Wisconsin thing. Unfortunately, somebody is always going to feel the pain in budget cuts. What disturbed me about the whole thing is not the fact that these workers were going to be required to make concessions. It was the fact that this law, as worded, severely restricted these employees collective bargaining rights.

Up against the wall!

Mr. Kotter
02-20-2011, 10:20 PM
"Middle class is just looters, and leeches!!! Workers, teachers, all dem bi-atches, need to die! Die, die, die!!!"

TMC, BEP, TJ, and all right wing wackjob-liberarian tea-bagging nutcases. They's Just sayin'... :mad:

Mr. Kotter
02-20-2011, 10:22 PM
yeah, right. That is exactly what is happening: The GOP is trying to kill the WI middle class.

Well, it starts here; just like Kristall Nacht..which ain't far away, given tea-bagging rhetoric.

:hmmm:

SNR
02-20-2011, 10:50 PM
For the 400 people he's talking about? Much of it was just inherited, sometimes over many generations. Then just sit on your a** and collect dividends, cap gains, and interest. Oh, and pay some lobbyists and marketing/propaganga firms to come up with genuine sounding names like "Americans for prosperity" to keep siphoning off the rest of whatever is left of this country.A large portion of people making 250K+ worked their asses off to get there. The top 400 (like you said) likely inherited that money.

And yet all the talk I see in terms of wealth redistribution is centered towards hitting everybody in the 250K+ line. That goes for small business owners, doctors, lawyers, entrepreneurs, and a bunch of other people who risked a lot to get to where they were.

Obama says the issue is "fairness". So make things more fair.

SNR
02-20-2011, 10:51 PM
Well, it starts here; just like Kristall Nacht..which ain't far away, given tea-bagging rhetoric.

:hmmm:I don't want to put words in your mouth, but what were your opinions regarding the Rally to Restore Sanity and the Gabby Giffords shooting just months ago?

googlegoogle
02-21-2011, 12:36 AM
"Middle class is just looters, and leeches!!! Workers, teachers, all dem bi-atches, need to die! Die, die, die!!!"

TMC, BEP, TJ, and all right wing wackjob-liberarian tea-bagging nutcases. They's Just sayin'... :mad:


MR KOTTER = BIG GOV LIBERAL

Go suck Obamas dick!

googlegoogle
02-21-2011, 12:37 AM
Well, it starts here; just like Kristall Nacht..which ain't far away, given tea-bagging rhetoric.

:hmmm:

:spock:
Really?

An oppressive regime who intimidates to get what they want?

Sounds like your union friends.

Go fucking kill yourself. :thumb:

Bewbies
02-21-2011, 12:49 AM
It's just another example of class warfare.
And guess what?
You Lost.

This situation in Wisconsin was funded by Kansas Own Koch Industries.

Balance the budget, but give $114 million in tax breaks to Wisconsin corporations.

Here's a few more signs from the protest. Enjoy. (nsfw)

Taco John
02-21-2011, 12:51 AM
These protests make me laugh and wonder where these people where in November when they were supposed to be organizing and getting their voice heard...

johnny961
02-21-2011, 01:26 AM
These protests make me laugh and wonder where these people where in November when they were supposed to be organizing and getting their voice heard...

This is kind of off topic here but you make an interesting point on the voting thing. I know alot of people that like to complain but will never bother to get involved or show up at the polls. I also think that some of the public make knee jerk reactionist decisions even when it comes to something as serious as politics. People get so blindly pissed off at a given candidate or controlling party that they will vote for "the other guy" without really giving much thought about the issues and what "the other guy" really stands for. Another thing is the "Born Republican/Democrat die Republican/Democrat mentality that some have, voting for the same party all of their life without keeping an open mind on the candidates or what they really stand for. Thats why I have never registered as a set party voter. My point being that if people really stopped long enough to put partisan politics aside and objectively viewed the issues and where each candidate stood on these issues, I think a number of people would really vote differently than what they do. Just my opinion here, though.

The Mad Crapper
02-21-2011, 08:30 AM
This situation in Wisconsin was funded by Kansas Own Koch Industries.



Where did you get this? Because I noticed over the past few weeks that moonbats are slowly interjecting this mysterious "Koch brothers" into every conversation.

The Mad Crapper
02-21-2011, 08:31 AM
"Middle class is just looters, and leeches!!! Workers, teachers, all dem bi-atches, need to die! Die, die, die!!!"

TMC, BEP, TJ, and all right wing wackjob-liberarian tea-bagging nutcases. They's Just sayin'... :mad:

Where did I say anything about the "middle class"?

when you have to resort to dishonesty in an argument, you've already lost.

patteeu
02-21-2011, 09:21 AM
It's just another example of class warfare.
And guess what?
You Lost.

This situation in Wisconsin was funded by Kansas Own Koch Industries.

Balance the budget, but give $114 million in tax breaks to Wisconsin corporations.

What tax breaks specifically? Do you even know?

patteeu
02-21-2011, 09:23 AM
I've kinda followed the Wisconsin thing. Unfortunately, somebody is always going to feel the pain in budget cuts. What disturbed me about the whole thing is not the fact that these workers were going to be required to make concessions. It was the fact that this law, as worded, severely restricted these employees collective bargaining rights.

The best doctors don't just treat symptoms. They also address the root cause.

patteeu
02-21-2011, 09:29 AM
Where did you get this? Because I noticed over the past few weeks that moonbats are slowly interjecting this mysterious "Koch brothers" into every conversation.

The new bogeymen. John Boehner doesn't look evil enough for the part.

gblowfish
02-21-2011, 09:42 AM
What tax breaks specifically? Do you even know?

The governor is refusing to accept his own share of responsibility for the state’s projected $137 million shortfall. Just last month, he and the Legislature gave away $117 million in tax breaks, mostly for businesses that expand and for private health savings accounts. That was a choice lawmakers made, and had it not been for those decisions and a few others, according to the state’s Legislative Fiscal Bureau, the state of Wisconsin would have had a surplus.

http://thinkprogress.org/2011/02/18/business-teaparty-wisconsin/

Wisconsin’s newly elected Republican Gov. Scott Walker is facing a growing backlash over his attempt to cut pay and eliminate collective bargaining rights for public employees in his state. Although Walker is claiming his power grab is an attempt to close a budget gap, the budget “crisis” was engineered by Walker as soon as he got into office. As Brian Beutler reported, half of the budget shortfall comes from Walker’s own tax cuts for businesses and other business giveaways enacted in January.

A number of the big business interests standing with Walker are beneficiaries of his administration’s tax giveaways. But the greatest ally to Walker is the dirty energy company Koch Industries. In response to the growing protests in Madison, Koch fronts are busing in Tea Party protesters to support Walker and his union-busting campaign. Last night, MSNBC’s Ed Schultz reported on the involvement of Club for Growth and the Koch-financed Americans for Prosperity in the pro-Walker protest scheduled tomorrow.

Koch Industries is a major player in Wisconsin: Koch owns a coal company subsidiary with facilities in Green Bay, Manitowoc, Ashland and Sheboygan; six timber plants throughout the state; and a large network of pipelines in Wisconsin. While Koch controls much of the infrastructure in the state, they have laid off workers to boost profits. At a time when Koch Industries owners David and Charles Koch awarded themselves an extra $11 billion of income from the company, Koch slashed jobs at their Green Bay plant.

Koch Industries was one of the biggest contributors to Walker’s gubernatorial campaign, funneling $43,000 over the course of last year. In return, Koch front groups are closely guiding the Walker agenda. The American Legislative Exchange Council, another Koch-funded group, advised Walker and the GOP legislature on its anti-labor legislation and its first corporate tax cuts.

According to the EPA, Koch businesses are huge polluters, emitting thousands of pounds of toxic pollutants. As soon as he got into office Walker started cutting environmental regulations and appointed a Republican known for her disregard for environmental regulations to lead the Department of Natural Resources. In addition, Walker has stated his opposition to clean energy jobs policies that might draw workers away from Koch-owned interests.

Moreover, other organizers for the pro-Walker protest are from groups associated with corporate and Koch interests. American Majority, a Virginia-based front group founded by organizers funded by millionaire investor Howie Rich, is on the ground contacting Wisconsin Tea Parties to support Walker in Madison. Austin James, an American Majority official who was caught teaching Tea Party members to spam Amazon.com profiles of liberal books with negative comments, is the contact for the Facebook page organizing the pro-Walker protest. Eric O’Keefe, a longtime conservative operative who helps lead American Majority, attends Koch strategy meetings.

Koch's Americans for Prosperity group has launched a new website and petition called www.standwithwalker.com. The new site attacks all collective bargaining, not just for public sector unions. Koch's front group also declares: "In fact, every state should adopt Governor Scott Walker's common sense reforms."

vailpass
02-21-2011, 10:03 AM
And why would a governor would give tax breaks to buisness?

BucEyedPea
02-21-2011, 10:25 AM
And why would a governor would give tax breaks to buisness?

Because some were going to leave the state and move south where there are more right-to-work states. Goody for us!

But let's not have jobs stay or worse be created in this economy even. Wisconsin is a very progressive state and even their regulatory burden was pretty anti-business.

Oh! I might add that collective bargaining is not a natural inalienable right. It is a political right granted by govt. Those kinds of rights can rightfully be taken away.

Cave Johnson
02-21-2011, 10:31 AM
A large portion of people making 250K+ worked their asses off to get there. The top 400 (like you said) likely inherited that money.

And yet all the talk I see in terms of wealth redistribution is centered towards hitting everybody in the 250K+ line. That goes for small business owners, doctors, lawyers, entrepreneurs, and a bunch of other people who risked a lot to get to where they were.

Obama says the issue is "fairness". So make things more fair.

Oh, I'm all for a new tax bracket that separates out working professionals (and other high earners on the coasts) from the truly rich.

That, and ending the mortgage interest deduction on houses above x value.

vailpass
02-21-2011, 10:35 AM
Because some were going to leave the state and move south where there are more right-to-work states. Goody for us!

But let's not have job's stay or worse be created in this economy even. Wisconsin is a very progressive state and even their regulatory burden was pretty anti-business.

Oh! I might add that collective bargaining is not a natural inalienable right. It is a political right granted by govt. Those kinds of rights can rightfully be taken away.

You mean the tax breaks weren't simply a matter of the governor adding to the deficit as suggested by blowfish? Instead tax concessions are an accepted and necessary tool for attracting/retaining business in any given city/state? That tax breaks in this light are actually an investment in the state economy and therefore a means for reducing the deficit while bolstering the state economy and lowering unemployment?

dirk digler
02-21-2011, 10:39 AM
Don't you hate when newly elected government officials try to put into action the policies for which the people elected them?

I know. Think about all those stupid people that complained about Obama doing something about healthcare. The horror. ;)

patteeu
02-21-2011, 10:39 AM
So these supposed handouts to business were really intended to encourage economic growth and address rapidly inflating health care costs faced by private sector employees? How nefarious! If you're a private enterprise hating socialist, you lose!

BucEyedPea
02-21-2011, 10:40 AM
You mean the tax breaks weren't simply a matter of the governor adding to the deficit as suggested by blowfish?

Of course not. More people working means more tax revenue or sales taxes ( if they have) and allows education more funds eventually too. The Democrats and Unions are putting carts before horses.
One example is Harley Davidson whose taxes were jacked up tens of millions of dollars was considering leaving the state which would have been a blow.They couldn't make it any more in that state without big concessions by their workers.

http://gazettextra.com/weblogs/latest-news/2010/sep/13/harley-davidson-workers-wisconsin-approve-contract/

vailpass
02-21-2011, 10:40 AM
I know. Think about all those stupid people that complained about Obama doing something about healthcare. The horror. ;)

I know. Do you think he will ever do something to improve the health care situation?

patteeu
02-21-2011, 10:41 AM
I know. Think about all those stupid people that complained about Obama doing something about healthcare. The horror. ;)

Obama didn't do anything about the real healthcare issue, rapidly rising costs.

BucEyedPea
02-21-2011, 10:42 AM
I know. Think about all those stupid people that complained about Obama doing something about healthcare. The horror. ;)

Did the Republicans have the luxury of being able to walk out to prevent a vote?

dirk digler
02-21-2011, 10:45 AM
I know. Do you think he will ever do something to improve the health care situation?

I like some of the things in the bill as do most people. It isn't perfect by any means though.

The point though is a a lot of people didn't want anything done about it even though that was one of the main issues people voted for Obama and the Dems.

As for the governor I am pretty sure he didn't campaign on busting the unions or he would have never been elected. The unions have already said they will take the pay cuts etc just not the elimination of collective bargaining.

BucEyedPea
02-21-2011, 10:46 AM
I like some of the things in the bill as do most people. It isn't perfect by any means though.

The point though is a a lot of people didn't want anything done about it even though that was one of the main issues people voted for Obama and the Dems.

As for the governor I am pretty sure he didn't campaign on busting the unions or he would have never been elected. The unions have already said they will take the pay cuts etc just not the elimination of collective bargaining.

I heard on the news that it's not even true that the gov did away with collective bargaining completely either. That he did allow it to remain for wages.

BucEyedPea
02-21-2011, 10:46 AM
I like some of the things in the bill as do most people. It isn't perfect by any means though.

The point though is a a lot of people didn't want anything done about it even though that was one of the main issues people voted for Obama and the Dems.

As for the governor I am pretty sure he didn't campaign on busting the unions or he would have never been elected. The unions have already said they will take the pay cuts etc just not the elimination of collective bargaining.

I think many did want HC reform....I don't know if they wanted that bill.

HonestChieffan
02-21-2011, 10:46 AM
Koch is the debil

vailpass
02-21-2011, 10:47 AM
I like some of the things in the bill as do most people. It isn't perfect by any means though.

The point though is a a lot of people didn't want anything done about it even though that was one of the main issues people voted for Obama and the Dems.

As for the governor I am pretty sure he didn't campaign on busting the unions or he would have never been elected. The unions have already said they will take the pay cuts etc just not the elimination of collective bargaining.

And why do you think the unions are offering all of those concessions?

patteeu
02-21-2011, 10:48 AM
I like some of the things in the bill as do most people. It isn't perfect by any means though.

The point though is a a lot of people didn't want anything done about it even though that was one of the main issues people voted for Obama and the Dems.

As for the governor I am pretty sure he didn't campaign on busting the unions or he would have never been elected. The unions have already said they will take the pay cuts etc just not the elimination of collective bargaining.

Why do you think they want collective bargaining left untouched.

dirk digler
02-21-2011, 10:48 AM
I do have a question for the smart people. Does the market have effect on State Pensions like 401k's?

HonestChieffan
02-21-2011, 10:49 AM
I heard on the news that it's not even true that the gov did away with collective bargaining completely either. That he did allow it to remain for wages.


Please, no facts are allowed when liberals rage an set hair on fire. Create a demon...rage at the demon.

patteeu
02-21-2011, 10:51 AM
I do have a question for the smart people. Does the market have effect on State Pensions like 401k's?

Typically, pensions are invested in tradable securities of some kind, so yes. BTW, no need to beat around the bush. You can address me by username. :p

dirk digler
02-21-2011, 10:51 AM
And why do you think the unions are offering all of those concessions?

I don't know but from what I understand they have accepted cuts almost every year in Wisconsin. I assume it is for the same reasons as the previous years.

mlyonsd
02-21-2011, 10:53 AM
I do have a question for the smart people. Does the market have effect on State Pensions like 401k's?

Yup:

http://www.uwsa.edu/hr/benefits/retsav/downturnvar.pdf?__utma=1.1694625373.1298307061.1298307061.1298307061.1&__utmb=1.1.10.1298307061&__utmc=1&__utmx=-&__utmz=1.1298307061.1.1.utmcsr=google|utmccn=(organic)|utmcmd=organic|utmctr=wisconsin%20state%20emp loyee%20pension%20%2Binvestments&__utmv=-&__utmk=75849621

vailpass
02-21-2011, 10:56 AM
I don't know but from what I understand they have accepted cuts almost every year in Wisconsin. I assume it is for the same reasons as the previous years.

Are you being disingenuous here or do you really not see that the union is giving concessions in hopes of surviving? That the governor and those who stand with him in the effort to correct Wisconsin's deficit woes have forced the union to those concessions? That the union is in no position to bargain for anything at this point?

dirk digler
02-21-2011, 10:58 AM
Most pensions are invested in tradable securities of some kind, so yes.

Ok if that is true then why is it right that workers with a pension fund get bent over while Wall Street gets a trillion dollar bailout with no consequences even though they are responsible for the shortages of the pension fund?

dirk digler
02-21-2011, 11:02 AM
Are you being disingenuous here or do you really not see that the union is giving concessions in hopes of surviving? That the governor and those who stand with him in the effort to correct Wisconsin's deficit woes have forced the union to those concessions? That the union is in no position to bargain for anything at this point?

Is it for survival reasons the previous years as well? I would agree that is probably some of it this time around.

dirk digler
02-21-2011, 11:04 AM
Yup:

http://www.uwsa.edu/hr/benefits/retsav/downturnvar.pdf?__utma=1.1694625373.1298307061.1298307061.1298307061.1&__utmb=1.1.10.1298307061&__utmc=1&__utmx=-&__utmz=1.1298307061.1.1.utmcsr=google|utmccn=(organic)|utmcmd=organic|utmctr=wisconsin%20state%20emp loyee%20pension%20%2Binvestments&__utmv=-&__utmk=75849621 (http://www.uwsa.edu/hr/benefits/retsav/downturnvar.pdf?__utma=1.1694625373.1298307061.1298307061.1298307061.1&__utmb=1.1.10.1298307061&__utmc=1&__utmx=-&__utmz=1.1298307061.1.1.utmcsr=google%7Cutmccn=%28organic%29%7Cutmcmd=organic%7Cutmctr=wisconsin%20s tate%20employee%20pension%20%2Binvestments&__utmv=-&__utmk=75849621)

Thanks.

patteeu
02-21-2011, 11:04 AM
Ok if that is true then why is it right that workers with a pension fund get bent over while Wall Street gets a trillion dollar bailout with no consequences even though they are responsible for the shortages of the pension fund?

It's not right. No one should be bailed out. The system is messed up when it allows too big to fail to happen.

Chief Henry
02-21-2011, 11:40 AM
Have the Dem. State Senators come back to Wisconsin yet ? tic

Can they be held in contempt in anyway... Just asking.

chiefsnorth
02-21-2011, 12:31 PM
Why would the state give tac breaks to big business? To keep the jobs there obviously.

Wisconsin is consistently rated one of the most business unfriendly states in the union. This is no surprise, historically blue states create tax and legislative environments hostile to business.

However the house of cards has remained standing in the past decades because before the information age business wasn't as mobile. Wisconsin was also sheltered by the fact that neighboring states were pretty liberal as well, so business didn't hop over the border like some states see (ex: Minnesota/South Dakota).

Today we've reached a tipping point where taxes have grown to be so onerous, regulations so mature in their militancy against business, that adding the O-conomy's economic pressures buckles the whole thing.

If you can possibly move to friendly environs, you are really breaching fiduciary duty not to do so.

Hence, places where golden geese are killed for roasting like Wisconsin have to bribe them to stay.

alnorth
02-21-2011, 12:34 PM
(reposting, the "curbstomp" could come sooner than you think)

There is a very major possible storyline that is not being covered very well and I've only seen whispered about. This story could end dramatically tomorrow.

Everyone is presuming this 20-vote quorum in the WI state senate applies to all legislation. It does not, only for the budget. You need a simple majority for a quorum to pass anything else. Removing the right of public employee unions to collectively bargain on health care and pensions is not a budget item. It was attached to a budget bill, but it didn't have to be. Republicans are cryptically saying they may vote on other legislation tomorrow.

At least one democrat has talked about the WI Senate possibly attaching the collective bargaining measure to another unrelated bill and voting on it without them. This could be why the governor and the WI GOP are so hell-bent on not giving in, if this is true, then they already know they can't be stopped.

Absent Wis. Dem frets about GOP vote on union bill (http://www.wqow.com/Global/story.asp?S=14069581)

The Mad Crapper
02-21-2011, 01:09 PM
The Tea Party = Middle class.

Bewbies
02-21-2011, 03:26 PM
The Tea Party = Middle class.

No way. Tea Party = Wall Street fat cats wanting to curb stomp the middle class.

suzzer99
02-21-2011, 05:06 PM
The average Tea Partier is retired and on medicare.

The Mad Crapper
02-21-2011, 06:13 PM
The average Tea Partier is retired and on medicare.

Riiiiiiiiiiight. thats why their main concern is income taxes. :rolleyes:

whatsmynameagain
02-21-2011, 09:23 PM
The governor is refusing to accept his own share of responsibility for the state’s projected $137 million shortfall. Just last month, he and the Legislature gave away $117 million in tax breaks, mostly for businesses that expand and for private health savings accounts. That was a choice lawmakers made, and had it not been for those decisions and a few others, according to the state’s Legislative Fiscal Bureau, the state of Wisconsin would have had a surplus.

http://thinkprogress.org/2011/02/18/business-teaparty-wisconsin/

Wisconsin’s newly elected Republican Gov. Scott Walker is facing a growing backlash over his attempt to cut pay and eliminate collective bargaining rights for public employees in his state. Although Walker is claiming his power grab is an attempt to close a budget gap, the budget “crisis” was engineered by Walker as soon as he got into office. As Brian Beutler reported, half of the budget shortfall comes from Walker’s own tax cuts for businesses and other business giveaways enacted in January.

A number of the big business interests standing with Walker are beneficiaries of his administration’s tax giveaways. But the greatest ally to Walker is the dirty energy company Koch Industries. In response to the growing protests in Madison, Koch fronts are busing in Tea Party protesters to support Walker and his union-busting campaign. Last night, MSNBC’s Ed Schultz reported on the involvement of Club for Growth and the Koch-financed Americans for Prosperity in the pro-Walker protest scheduled tomorrow.

Koch Industries is a major player in Wisconsin: Koch owns a coal company subsidiary with facilities in Green Bay, Manitowoc, Ashland and Sheboygan; six timber plants throughout the state; and a large network of pipelines in Wisconsin. While Koch controls much of the infrastructure in the state, they have laid off workers to boost profits. At a time when Koch Industries owners David and Charles Koch awarded themselves an extra $11 billion of income from the company, Koch slashed jobs at their Green Bay plant.

Koch Industries was one of the biggest contributors to Walker’s gubernatorial campaign, funneling $43,000 over the course of last year. In return, Koch front groups are closely guiding the Walker agenda. The American Legislative Exchange Council, another Koch-funded group, advised Walker and the GOP legislature on its anti-labor legislation and its first corporate tax cuts.

According to the EPA, Koch businesses are huge polluters, emitting thousands of pounds of toxic pollutants. As soon as he got into office Walker started cutting environmental regulations and appointed a Republican known for her disregard for environmental regulations to lead the Department of Natural Resources. In addition, Walker has stated his opposition to clean energy jobs policies that might draw workers away from Koch-owned interests.

Moreover, other organizers for the pro-Walker protest are from groups associated with corporate and Koch interests. American Majority, a Virginia-based front group founded by organizers funded by millionaire investor Howie Rich, is on the ground contacting Wisconsin Tea Parties to support Walker in Madison. Austin James, an American Majority official who was caught teaching Tea Party members to spam Amazon.com profiles of liberal books with negative comments, is the contact for the Facebook page organizing the pro-Walker protest. Eric O’Keefe, a longtime conservative operative who helps lead American Majority, attends Koch strategy meetings.

Koch's Americans for Prosperity group has launched a new website and petition called www.standwithwalker.com. The new site attacks all collective bargaining, not just for public sector unions. Koch's front group also declares: "In fact, every state should adopt Governor Scott Walker's common sense reforms."


So you have facts, big deal. Obama is still an American hating Muslim.

whatsmynameagain
02-21-2011, 09:26 PM
Because some were going to leave the state and move south where there are more right-to-work states. Goody for us!

But let's not have jobs stay or worse be created in this economy even. Wisconsin is a very progressive state and even their regulatory burden was pretty anti-business.

Oh! I might add that collective bargaining is not a natural inalienable right. It is a political right granted by govt. Those kinds of rights can rightfully be taken away.

An energy company using natural resources will relocate, huh?

Bribes are not inalienable rights either, sfb!

whatsmynameagain
02-21-2011, 09:31 PM
The Tea Party = Middle class.

Old and white is the new middle-class, American dream!

BucEyedPea
02-22-2011, 08:53 AM
An energy company using natural resources will relocate, huh?

Bribes are not inalienable rights either, sfb!

No one's made a case for bribes being a right. That's deflection. Besides a tax break is not a bribe.

BTW I named a type of company that couldn't stay in the state and remain competitive.

Cave Johnson
02-22-2011, 09:48 AM
Funny how Walker is exempting police and firefighters, who, totally coincidentally, supported his election.

patteeu
02-22-2011, 10:09 AM
Funny how Walker is exempting police and firefighters, who, totally coincidentally, supported his election.

Based on what I've heard, he had the support of a couple of local Milwaukee police/fire unions but that the majority of such unions in the state opposed his candidacy so I'm not sure your implication stands up to scrutiny. Has Walker given a public explanation as to why these groups have been exempted?

Chief Henry
02-22-2011, 10:09 AM
Funny how Walker is exempting police and firefighters, who, totally coincidentally, supported his election.

Exactly how many of these police and firefighters supported Walker in the last election ?

Cave Johnson
02-22-2011, 10:12 AM
Has Walker given a public explanation as to why these groups have been exempted?

The "threatening public safety if they strike" card.

Cave Johnson
02-22-2011, 10:16 AM
Based on what I've heard, he had the support of a couple of local Milwaukee police/fire unions but that the majority of such unions in the state opposed his candidacy so I'm not sure your implication stands up to scrutiny.

Apparently they were split.

“Politically, police and fire unions are not Republican bastions; they split their allegiances between the parties,” Barro said. “Because they are a swing constituency, Republican politicians have more incentive to try to make nice with them than with other public employee unions. … I can understand why [Walker] would make a strategic choice to exclude them — politicians pick their battles all the time with an eye toward coalition building — but I do think it’s unfortunate.”

http://dailycaller.com/2011/02/22/walker-may-have-wasted-political-capital-by-sparing-wisconsins-policemen-and-firemen/

The Rick
02-22-2011, 10:17 AM
Funny how Walker is exempting police and firefighters, who, totally coincidentally, supported his election.
Here's why, and it has nothing to do with political "favors":
Walker denies favoring police, fire unions

Several at City Hall raised the question before the election:

Had Scott Walker cut any closed-door deals with the local police and firefighters unions to gain their support during last year's campaign?

Some Milwaukee officials believe they have an answer now that the state budget repair bill is out and Walker has exempted law enforcement and firefighters from the dramatic changes he is proposing in bargaining rules for other public employee unions.

"I'm very disappointed," said Ald. Michael Murphy, a critic of the newly elected governor. "It seems to be almost like a pay-to-play."

Except the Milwaukee Professional Firefighters Association and Milwaukee Police Association don't deliver much in terms of campaign donations. The firefighters gave Walker no money, while the police union chipped in $1,100 to his campaign and that of his lieutenant governor.

What these labor groups deliver instead is an image that their candidate is tough on crime. You may remember that in addition to endorsing the eventual winner, leaders from both Milwaukee unions starred in one of Walker's most compelling campaign ads late in the election season.

"I can't speak to whether any deals were cut," said Patrick Curley, chief of staff for Milwaukee Mayor Tom Barrett, a Democrat who was defeated by Walker in November. "But it's obvious that these two groups received special consideration in this bill."

On Friday, the first-term Republican governor called it "utterly ridiculous" to suggest that the provision in the budget bill was a payback to Milwaukee's police and fire unions.

Walker noted that the Wisconsin Professional Police Association and the Professional Fire Fighters of Wisconsin - the two state organizations - backed his opponent. If the new governor really wanted to reward his supporters, he said he could have simply exempted the Milwaukee unions from his proposal.

Instead, the governor said he is concerned that his budget bill may lead to walkouts by some public employees. He didn't recommend changing the rules for cops and firefighters because he said Wisconsin can't afford for them to leave those positions vacant for even a short period.

"To me, that's not an area to mess around with," Walker told the Journal Sentinel.

The head of the Milwaukee police union agrees.

"I don't think we're being paid back," said Michael Crivello, the union president.

From the start, Crivello said, Walker's message hasn't changed. He said the former Milwaukee County executive has emphasized the need to make the state strong again and the need to have strong public safety.

Under his proposal, public employees - except police, firefighters and inspectors - would lose many bargaining rights and could opt out of paying union dues in the future, with dues no longer collected automatically. He is also recommending limiting pay raises for state workers while asking them to contribute more to their pensions and health insurance.

Murphy, the Milwaukee alderman, said he still expects Walker to push a bill to end the requirement that police and firefighters have to live in the city in which they work.

"A lot of them will want to leave the city because the taxes are too high because we're paying high benefits to police and firefighters," said the west side politician.

Dave Seager, head of the Milwaukee firefighters union, said Walker has made his group no promises on any issue. But Seager - who appeared in his full firefighter's garb for the Walker TV spot last fall - said he would have been derelict in his duties if he hadn't raised the residency issue with Walker last year.

And what was the response? Seager said Walker pointed out that he backed legislation to repeal the requirement when he was a legislator.

"He said, 'I support it now; I supported it then - I support the residency repeal,' " Seager said. "But there were no promises at all."

No promises. No deals. Just a meeting of minds.
http://www.jsonline.com/watchdog/noquarter/116139104.html

whatsmynameagain
02-22-2011, 12:57 PM
No one's made a case for bribes being a right. That's deflection. Besides a tax break is not a bribe.

BTW I named a type of company that couldn't stay in the state and remain competitive.

When you give tax cuts that benefit the businesses that paid big bucks to get you elected that's a bribe. We were talking about the koch bros. You might wanna step outside and get some oxygen.

patteeu
02-22-2011, 01:01 PM
When you give tax cuts that benefit the businesses that paid big bucks to get you elected that's a bribe. We were talking about the koch bros. You might wanna step outside and get some oxygen.

Is it a bribe when unions give lots of money to pro-union politicians?

The Mad Crapper
02-22-2011, 02:51 PM
The primary goal of oligarchical collectivists (aka Obamunists) is to transform America into a two class system: an elitist cadre that runs the government and the impoverished proles who depend on it for existence. To accomplish this fundamental transformation, Comrade Obama must destroy the middle class, which constitutes the primary bulwark against totalitarianism.

He's doing an excellent job. CA Political News lists 18 sobering indications that the middle class is not participating in the supposed economic recovery, but has been forced into a tailspin toward oblivion:

#1 According to Gallup, the U.S. unemployment rate is currently 10.3 percent. When you add in part-time American workers that want full-time employment, that number rises to 20.2 percent.

#2 According to the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics, the number of job openings in the United States declined for a second straight month during December.

#3 There are currently more than 4 million Americans that have been unemployed for more than a year.

#4 The number of Americans that have become so discouraged that they have given up searching for work completely now stands at an all-time high.

#5 Gasoline prices in the United States recently hit a 28-month high.

#6 During the 4th quarter of 2010, 4.63 percent of all U.S. home loans were in foreclosure. That matched the all-time high, and it was up significantly from 4.39 percent in the 3rd quarter.

#7 It is estimated that there are about 5 million homeowners in the United States that are at least two months behind on their mortgages, and it is being projected that over a million American families will be booted out of their homes this year alone.

#8 Almost 14 percent of all credit card accounts in the United States are currently 90 days or more delinquent.

#9 The average credit card rate in the United States had increased to a whopping 13.44 percent at the end of 2010.

#10 Americans now owe more than $890 billion on student loans, which is even more than they owe on credit cards.

#11 Average household debt in the United States has now reached a level of 136% of average household income. In China, average household debt is only 17% of average household income.

#12 U.S. life expectancy at birth is now three years less than Canada and four years less than Japan.

#13 New home sales in the state of California were at the lowest level ever recorded in the month of January.

#14 43 percent of all mortgages in south Florida are currently underwater.

#15 Prior to the most recent economic downturn, there were usually somewhere around four to five million job openings in America. Today there are about 3 million.

#16 When you adjust wages for inflation, middle class workers in the United States make less money today than they did back in 1971.

#17 One out of every seven Americans is now on food stamps.

#18 One out of every six elderly Americans now lives below the federal poverty line.

Progressivism is an alliance of the welfare class and limousine liberals against everyone in between. The government isn't crushing the life out of the economy with its own monstrous obesity by accident; as Obama's obscene "stimulus" spending makes obvious, it's by design — and it's working.

HonestChieffan
02-22-2011, 03:12 PM
Is it a bribe when unions give lots of money to pro-union politicians?

Union of Koch supporters would be.

whatsmynameagain
02-22-2011, 04:13 PM
Is it a bribe when unions give lots of money to pro-union politicians?

People should run the country not corporations. Unions benefit workers, corporations care nothing of their employees. That's why they are cutting jobs, outsourcing, and pushing their current workers harder all while pulling in record profits. If you are in the top 1%, I get it. If your not, enjoy the slavery. I do think unions need to be more unaccountable of the quality of members they have.

patteeu
02-22-2011, 04:39 PM
People should run the country not corporations. Unions benefit workers, corporations care nothing of their employees. That's why they are cutting jobs, outsourcing, and pushing their current workers harder all while pulling in record profits. If you are in the top 1%, I get it. If your not, enjoy the slavery. I do think unions need to be more unaccountable of the quality of members they have.

So it's not a bribe when unions do it, but it is a bribe when corporations do it. LOL

Corporations represent people just like unions do. The difference between them is that a corporation is a productive enterprise that benefits not only itself but also it's employees and it's consumers. The unions don't care about anyone but themselves.

whatsmynameagain
02-22-2011, 04:57 PM
So it's not a bribe when unions do it, but it is a bribe when corporations do it. LOL

Corporations represent people just like unions do. The difference between them is that a corporation is a productive enterprise that benefits not only itself but also it's employees and it's consumers. The unions don't care about anyone but themselves.

Corporations represent people just like unions do? That's rich!

Calcountry
02-22-2011, 05:22 PM
To the Banyons of the world confiscation of the reward of others labor and success is a good thing. Take from those who have accomplished something and give to those who do nothing.

Punish those who are a success.drag out a court proceeding to padd them billable hours, nice.

KC native
02-22-2011, 07:20 PM
I do have a question for the smart people. Does the market have effect on State Pensions like 401k's?

I'm going to elaborate on this. It does but not as much. It all depends on whether it's a defined benefit or a defined contribution. Defined Benefit plans need to disappear. They are the pensions that are causing the problems. They are becoming exceedingly rare but will have legacy costs that are going to be around for awhile.

Defined benefit money managers are typically bound to very conservative investments. They have an advantage over equity fund managers because they have target dates and known quantities of cash that will be needed. So, they can buy mostly very vanilla stuff and as long as they beat inflation they keep their job.

This is actually one of the areas where Wall Street and Alan Greenspan really fucked this country. When Greenspan took rates down to his ridiculously low levels, pension managers (who generally run a lot more money than equity managers) were in a scramble for yield. Well, that's when Wall Street cooked up their brilliant asset backed securities (MBS,ABS, etc) schemes. They proposed that by taking a ton of risky shit and by slicing it and dicing, they could make riskless securities. Well, they got the ratings agencies on board and pension funds started lapping up these securities. Well, that's when AIG decided they were geniuses and they could insure all these riskless securities and just bank. Well, the demand for these securities (and low interest rates) fueled the housing boom and has led to the fall out we have now.

Now, variable pensions are going to be defined contribution so the company doesn't really give a shit what the participants choose as long as they have done their due diligence and given the participants a proper range of choices. So for variable, yes it is going to be affected like 401k's because they are essentially 401k's.

KC native
02-22-2011, 07:21 PM
So it's not a bribe when unions do it, but it is a bribe when corporations do it. LOL

Corporations represent people just like unions do. The difference between them is that a corporation is a productive enterprise that benefits not only itself but also it's employees and it's consumers. The unions don't care about anyone but themselves.

A corporation is a legal entity. It has no morals. It has no personality. It only exists to benefit its shareholders.

KC native
02-22-2011, 07:24 PM
Also, I'm not going to go back and find the posts but wrt to tax breaks at the state and local levels for corporations have never shown evidence that they grow the local economy. Voodoo economics doesn't work on the macro level and it damn sure doesn't work on the micro level either.

Bwana
02-22-2011, 07:37 PM
Wisconsin: Running like cockroaches when the light comes on........unreal. :shake:

patteeu
02-22-2011, 07:41 PM
A corporation is a legal entity. It has no morals. It has no personality. It only exists to benefit its shareholders.

... who happen to be people, right?

Furthermore, I would argue that as bad as corporations are about looking out for the interests of shareholders, employees, and customers of the future, they are better at it than the unions.

KC native
02-22-2011, 07:44 PM
... who happen to be people, right?

Furthermore, I would argue that as bad as corporations are about looking out for the interests of shareholders, employees, and customers of the future, they are better at it than the unions.

And you would lose that argument, just look at the entire financial sector.

patteeu
02-22-2011, 07:45 PM
Also, I'm not going to go back and find the posts but wrt to tax breaks at the state and local levels for corporations have never shown evidence that they grow the local economy. Voodoo economics doesn't work on the macro level and it damn sure doesn't work on the micro level either.

This is stupid. In fact, you need not look beyond the KC metro area to see the impact of disparate tax treatments between different jurisdicions. Why are TIFs such useful tools for attracting businesses to certain areas if your theory is right?

patteeu
02-22-2011, 07:46 PM
And you would lose that argument, just look at the entire financial sector.

No I wouldn't. Compare Walmart or Microsoft with GM or the government.

KC native
02-22-2011, 07:50 PM
This is stupid. In fact, you need not look beyond the KC metro area to see the impact of disparate tax treatments between different jurisdicions. Why are TIFs such useful tools for attracting businesses to certain areas if your theory is right?

There have been numerous studies done on this. These type of tax abatements are almost never revenue positive for the municipality granting them.

These tax abatements are generally granted with an understanding the business will be there after the tax abatements expire. Unfortunately, that's not what's been happening and now we see municipalities race to the bottom and get screwed because when the tax breaks are up the businesses move their offices.

You have a slightly stronger argument (albeit still is a weak one) at the macro level but voodoo economics is still a hoax.

KC native
02-22-2011, 07:53 PM
No I wouldn't. Compare Walmart or Microsoft with GM or the government.

The financial sector would not exist right now where it not for the generosity of tax payers world wide. Those corporations bankrupted themselves and governments. The were not efficient in protecting their firms, their clients, nor anything else.

KC native
02-22-2011, 07:55 PM
No I wouldn't. Compare Walmart or Microsoft with GM or the government.

Oh, and funny you mention Wally world too. If it weren't for our safety net as a country, then Wal Mart would be no where near as profitable as they are now.

patteeu
02-22-2011, 08:12 PM
There have been numerous studies done on this. These type of tax abatements are almost never revenue positive for the municipality granting them.

These tax abatements are generally granted with an understanding the business will be there after the tax abatements expire. Unfortunately, that's not what's been happening and now we see municipalities race to the bottom and get screwed because when the tax breaks are up the businesses move their offices.

You have a slightly stronger argument (albeit still is a weak one) at the macro level but voodoo economics is still a hoax.

Those studies don't account for the benefits of having a viable business located in the area of interest providing the locals with jobs. The point isn't narrowly focused on tax revenues, it's focused on economic activity. I used TIFs as an obvious example of tax policy influencing the behavior of business, a phenomenon you were denying.

KC native
02-22-2011, 08:15 PM
Those studies don't account for the benefits of having a viable business located in the area of interest providing the locals with jobs. The point isn't narrowly focused on tax revenues, it's focused on economic activity. I used TIFs as an obvious example of tax policy influencing the behavior of business, a phenomenon you were denying.

Those studies account for economic activity. Face it patt, outside of the charlatans at AEI or random whack jobs, the evidence points to these agreements as being a net negative for everyone that engages in them.

patteeu
02-22-2011, 08:31 PM
Those studies account for economic activity. Face it patt, outside of the charlatans at AEI or random whack jobs, the evidence points to these agreements as being a net negative for everyone that engages in them.

Sure. That's why they've been thoroughly discredited and have fallen into disuse. :rolleyes:

TIFs prove that businesses respond to tax policy. I understand that many efforts to use tax policy for urban planning in big city democrat strongholds have been big failures just like everything else they do, but that's a measure of the incompetence of those in charge not of the tool being used.

In other jurisdictions, like Texas, where Republicans aren't endangered species, favorable business environments (not independent of tax policy) create a relatively prosperous local economy.

KC native
02-22-2011, 08:53 PM
Sure. That's why they've been thoroughly discredited and have fallen into disuse. :rolleyes:

TIFs prove that businesses respond to tax policy. I understand that many efforts to use tax policy for urban planning in big city democrat strongholds have been big failures just like everything else they do, but that's a measure of the incompetence of those in charge not of the tool being used.

In other jurisdictions, like Texas, where Republicans aren't endangered species, favorable business environments (not independent of tax policy) create a relatively prosperous local economy.

Yea, just don't look at Texas' budget deficit or shitty school systems.

It's not nearly as prosperous as many Texans like to pretend.

Saul Good
02-22-2011, 09:46 PM
Yea, just don't look at Texas' budget deficit or shitty school systems.

It's not nearly as prosperous as many Texans like to pretend.

Those issues have nothing to do with a favorable business environment and everything to do with the giant shithole to the south that keeps seeping into Texas.

KC native
02-22-2011, 09:55 PM
Those issues have nothing to do with a favorable business environment and everything to do with the giant shithole to the south that keeps seeping into Texas.

Really? Are you aware of the budget tricks Perry has been pulling for the last 8 years? Of course you don't, I almost forgot I was talking to another one of the resident dumbasses out here.

patteeu
02-22-2011, 09:56 PM
Yea, just don't look at Texas' budget deficit or shitty school systems.

It's not nearly as prosperous as many Texans like to pretend.

If I were you, I'd move to Detroit where democrats are plentiful, unions are strong and the grass is presumably greener.

http://thisistheendoftheworldasweknowit.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/Detroit.jpg

BucEyedPea
02-22-2011, 10:52 PM
I'll take my own school thank you very much!

T-post Tom
02-22-2011, 11:09 PM
"Middle class is just looters, and leeches!!! Workers, teachers, all dem bi-atches, need to die! Die, die, die!!!"

TMC, BEP, TJ, and all right wing wackjob-liberarian tea-bagging nutcases. They's Just sayin'... :mad:

Funny how so many people will embrace political policy that causes them economic harm when the carrot of "the good life" is dangled before them. Hitler would be impressed with the effectiveness of today's propaganda spewing from many of our conservative elements.

alnorth
02-22-2011, 11:16 PM
Funny how so many people will embrace political policy that causes them economic harm when the carrot of "the good life" is dangled before them. Hitler would be impressed with the effectiveness of today's propaganda spewing from many of our conservative elements.

government workers are not "the middle class", and they should be forbidden from unionizing because its not a fair fight.

When you have a private sector union, the company has to push back to survive. With the public sector union, the entire system is corrupted. The union buys democrats who are then obligated to be completely whored out to the union. If they step out of line, they face a primary challenge against another democrat who is whored out to the union. No one is all that concerned about whether the taxpayer can afford these pensions and health care plans until they rebel. By then its often too late because the damned pensions are guaranteed no matter how short they are, unless the state can somehow go bankrupt.

T-post Tom
02-22-2011, 11:49 PM
government workers are not "the middle class", and they should be forbidden from unionizing because its not a fair fight.



:spock:
You've got enough fuzzy logic there to knit the WI Governor a nice spring sweater. Good luck with that.

HonestChieffan
02-22-2011, 11:54 PM
Funny how so many people will embrace political policy that causes them economic harm when the carrot of "the good life" is dangled before them. Hitler would be impressed with the effectiveness of today's propaganda spewing from many of our conservative elements.

Hope

Change

Jobs

Unicorns fly out your ass

T-post Tom
02-22-2011, 11:56 PM
Hope

Change

Jobs

Unicorns fly out your ass

aptly put

T-post Tom
02-22-2011, 11:57 PM
Hope

Change

Jobs

Unicorns fly out your ass

aptly put. status confirmed.

alnorth
02-23-2011, 08:52 AM
:spock:
You've got enough fuzzy logic there to knit the WI Governor a nice spring sweater. Good luck with that.

Seriously, its not hard to understand why the concept of a public sector union is idiotic.

In a private sector union, the union has to be cognizant of the health of the company, that if they push too far they could kill their own jobs. Management has to push back if the private sector union is going too far for the same reason.

Barring a historic, amazing recession, who is pushing back on behalf of the taxpayers? "Management" is often elected due to union money. They owe their job to the entity that they are supposed to have an adversarial relationship with. If they balk at a union demand, they may lose their next primary. Unless the taxpayers rise up in a bloody revolt, there's no such thing as too expensive. ie, "The union wants a hefty raise and benefit increase? Screw the taxpayers, they can afford it, if I say no, I won't be in politics much longer."

HonestChieffan
02-23-2011, 08:54 AM
Seriously, its not hard to understand why the concept of a public sector union is idiotic.

In a private sector union, the union has to be cognizant of the health of the company, that if they push too far they could kill their own jobs. Management has to push back if the private sector union is going too far for the same reason.

Barring a historic, amazing recession, who is pushing back on behalf of the taxpayers? "Management" is often elected due to union money. They owe their job to the entity that they are supposed to have an adversarial relationship with. If they balk at a union demand, they may lose their next primary. Unless the taxpayers rise up in a bloody revolt, there's no such thing as too expensive. ie, "The union wants a hefty raise and benefit increase? Screw the taxpayers, they can afford it, if I say no, I won't be in politics much longer."

Well said.

Mr. Kotter
02-23-2011, 10:22 AM
Seriously, its not hard to understand why the concept of a public sector union is idiotic.

In a private sector union, the union has to be cognizant of the health of the company, that if they push too far they could kill their own jobs. Management has to push back if the private sector union is going too far for the same reason.

Barring a historic, amazing recession, who is pushing back on behalf of the taxpayers? "Management" is often elected due to union money. They owe their job to the entity that they are supposed to have an adversarial relationship with. If they balk at a union demand, they may lose their next primary. Unless the taxpayers rise up in a bloody revolt, there's no such thing as too expensive. ie, "The union wants a hefty raise and benefit increase? Screw the taxpayers, they can afford it, if I say no, I won't be in politics much longer."

The "push-back" against public unions is much as, even more, formidable to public unions as there ever is in the private sector: it's called American's champagne taste on a beer budget. We are unwilling to pay for the services and programs we demand of our politicians.

Despite ranking 48th out of industrialized nations in total tax burden, we have incessant calls for lower and lower taxes. And if you want to talk about kowtowing to citizens and taxpayers, that's kowtowing....and it leads our politicians down this road toward fiscal insanity that we've been traveling for the last 10-15 years.

Americans overwhelmingly say they want programs--but we refuse to pay for them. That's the real problem here. Everyone wants a "free" lunch--and there are plenty of folks all over the political spectrum who are afflicted with it.

gblowfish
02-23-2011, 11:31 AM
Koch is the debil

And Walker is a Koch Whore!
http://www.buffalobeast.com/?p=5045

MADISON, Wis. – A prank caller pretending to be billionaire conservative businessman David Koch was able to have a lengthy conversation with Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker about his strategy to cripple public employee unions, the governor's office confirmed Wednesday.

On the call, Walker joked about bringing a baseball bat to a meeting with Democratic leaders, said it would "be outstanding" to be flown out to California by Koch for a good time after the battle is over, and said he expected the anti-union movement to spread across the country.

Audio was posted on the Buffalo Beast, a left-leaning website based in New York, and quickly spread across the Internet.

Democrats ripped Walker's comments on the call on the Assembly floor Wednesday morning, saying they had nothing to do with his assertion that legislation stripping public employees' collective bargaining rights is needed to help solve a looming budget deficit.

"That's why we must fight it! That is why people must come to the Capitol and fight this!" Rep. Jon Richards of Milwaukee yelled as thousands of protesters inside the rotunda roared in approval. "This isn't about balancing the budget, this is about a political war."

Walker spokesman Cullen Werwie confirmed Walker took the call, which will only heighten widespread suspicions that brothers David and Charles Koch are pulling strings in Wisconsin's battle as part of a conservative agenda to limit the unions' power.

The governor's plan would take away the ability of state and local public employees to collectively bargain for working conditions, benefits, or any other than their base salaries. Unions could not collect mandatory dues and would face a vote of its members every year to stay in existence.

The plan has set off more than a week of demonstrations at the Capitol, and prompted Wisconsin Senate Democrats to flee the state to block its passage. Similar ideas are being pushed in some other states with Republican governors.

The man pretending to be Koch said, "You're the first domino."

"Yep, this is our moment," Walker said.

The brothers own Koch Industries, Inc., which is the largest privately-owned company in America and has significant operations in Wisconsin. Its political action committee gave $43,000 to Walker's campaign, and donated heavily to the Republican Governors' Association, which funded ads attacking Walker's opponent in last year's election.

The Kochs also give millions to support Americans For Prosperity, which launched a $320,000 television ad campaign in favor of Walker's legislation on Wednesday and already has a website, standwithwalker.com, where more than 60,000 have signed a petition supporting his plan.

On the call, Walker talks about speaking with Democratic Sen. Tim Cullen, one of the Democrats hiding in Illinois to stop the bill, and telling Cullen he would not budge. After Walker said he would be willing to meet with Democratic leaders, the caller said he would bring "a baseball bat." Walker laughed and responded that he had "a slugger with my name on it."

The caller suggested he was thinking about "planting some troublemakers" among the protesters, and Walker said he had thought about doing that but declined. Walker said the protests eventually would die because the media would stop covering them.

At the end of the call, the prankster says: "I'll tell you what Scott, once you crush these bastards, I'll fly you out to Cali and really show you a good time."

"Alright, that would be outstanding. Thanks for all the support and helping us move the cause forward. We appreciate it and we're doing the just and right thing for the right reasons and it's all about getting our freedoms back," Walker said.

The caller: "Absolutely. And you know, we have a little bit of vested interest as well" and laughs.

"That's just it. The bottom line is, we're going to get the world movement here because it's the right thing to do."

Walker ends the call by saying, "thanks a million."

Cullen called the call an "astounding confirmation of what we've been saying for a couple weeks now."

"This bill is about the money," he said. "This bill is about destroying public employee unions."

Cullen said he felt the call "displays a level of partisanship and pettiness on the side of the governor I don't think is going to sit well with the public."

Werwie, the governor's spokesman, said the phone call "shows that the governor says the same thing in private as he does in public and the lengths that others will go to disrupt the civil debate Wisconsin is having."

Associated Press writer Scott Bauer contributed to this report.

whatsmynameagain
02-23-2011, 01:57 PM
Sure. That's why they've been thoroughly discredited and have fallen into disuse. :rolleyes:

TIFs prove that businesses respond to tax policy. I understand that many efforts to use tax policy for urban planning in big city democrat strongholds have been big failures just like everything else they do, but that's a measure of the incompetence of those in charge not of the tool being used.

In other jurisdictions, like Texas, where Republicans aren't endangered species, favorable business environments (not independent of tax policy) create a relatively prosperous local economy.

Texas, really? Amazon?

patteeu
02-23-2011, 02:13 PM
Texas, really? Amazon?

You're going to have to spell it out for me.

whatsmynameagain
02-23-2011, 05:15 PM
You're going to have to spell it out for me.

It was on drudge, how'd u miss it?

chiefzilla1501
02-23-2011, 07:35 PM
The financial sector would not exist right now where it not for the generosity of tax payers world wide. Those corporations bankrupted themselves and governments. The were not efficient in protecting their firms, their clients, nor anything else.

That's funny. Because how many public sector businesses would exist today if taxpayers didn't fund their ineptness? If the Postal Service was a private sector firm, they'd be out of business years ago.

If we're talking financial sector... umm... Social Security? Are you really going to argue that the public sector has any idea what the fuck they are doing in managing people's money? They're forcing taxpayers to put their money into a fund that's going to empty out by 2020. This is really the shining example of how to run a business?

Sorry, but the big difference between corporations and the public sector is accountability. Except for very recent history, the truth is, if the corporation isn't making money, they go bankrupt. In the public sector, if you're not making money, the taxpayers foot the bill.

KC native
02-23-2011, 11:52 PM
That's funny. Because how many public sector businesses would exist today if taxpayers didn't fund their ineptness? If the Postal Service was a private sector firm, they'd be out of business years ago.

If we're talking financial sector... umm... Social Security? Are you really going to argue that the public sector has any idea what the fuck they are doing in managing people's money? They're forcing taxpayers to put their money into a fund that's going to empty out by 2020. This is really the shining example of how to run a business?

Sorry, but the big difference between corporations and the public sector is accountability. Except for very recent history, the truth is, if the corporation isn't making money, they go bankrupt. In the public sector, if you're not making money, the taxpayers foot the bill.

Get your facts straight and then come back to talk with the adults.

ClevelandBronco
02-24-2011, 12:04 AM
Get your facts straight and then come back to talk with the adults.

Yeah! Doesn't he know that Social Security is already in the red when their entry for fictitious interest is considered? 2020 my ass.

alnorth
02-24-2011, 12:11 AM
The "push-back" against public unions is much as, even more, formidable to public unions as there ever is in the private sector: it's called American's champagne taste on a beer budget.

If your point is "Americans' responses to polls are schizophrenic and stupid", I whole-heartedly agree. If you poll the people you often get this greedy "give me everything" response. Dont' raise my taxes (and actually if you ask, I want you to lower my taxes!), but on the other hand not only do I want the current government services, they aren't enough, give me more! More welfare, more social security, more health care, more everything except taxes!

Well, damn, which is it: do you think we need more austerity, or more stimulus, you idiots?

Poll respondants are often uneducated, inconsistent, and/or stupid, there's just no other way to explain it, it is maddening.

chiefzilla1501
02-24-2011, 12:14 AM
Get your facts straight and then come back to talk with the adults.

Please enlighten me:
Are you telling me Social Security is working?
Are you telling me that the USPS isn't bleeding money?
Are you telling me that public sector businesses go bankrupt at a much higher rate than private sector businesses?
And are you really going to tell me that public sector employees who are largely protected by unions are more accountable for results than private sector employees in the middle class who can be fired at the drop of a hat?

FD
02-24-2011, 12:16 AM
Seriously, its not hard to understand why the concept of a public sector union is idiotic.

In a private sector union, the union has to be cognizant of the health of the company, that if they push too far they could kill their own jobs. Management has to push back if the private sector union is going too far for the same reason.

Barring a historic, amazing recession, who is pushing back on behalf of the taxpayers? "Management" is often elected due to union money. They owe their job to the entity that they are supposed to have an adversarial relationship with. If they balk at a union demand, they may lose their next primary. Unless the taxpayers rise up in a bloody revolt, there's no such thing as too expensive. ie, "The union wants a hefty raise and benefit increase? Screw the taxpayers, they can afford it, if I say no, I won't be in politics much longer."


Nice point. I agree.

patteeu
02-24-2011, 12:43 AM
It was on drudge, how'd u miss it?

I have no idea what I missed.

whatsmynameagain
02-24-2011, 06:35 AM
I have no idea what I missed.

If I wanted to spoon feed I'd have a kid. Google Texas and amazon.com

Jenson71
02-24-2011, 07:54 AM
Seriously, its not hard to understand why the concept of a public sector union is idiotic.

In a private sector union, the union has to be cognizant of the health of the company, that if they push too far they could kill their own jobs. Management has to push back if the private sector union is going too far for the same reason.

Barring a historic, amazing recession, who is pushing back on behalf of the taxpayers? "Management" is often elected due to union money. They owe their job to the entity that they are supposed to have an adversarial relationship with. If they balk at a union demand, they may lose their next primary. Unless the taxpayers rise up in a bloody revolt, there's no such thing as too expensive. ie, "The union wants a hefty raise and benefit increase? Screw the taxpayers, they can afford it, if I say no, I won't be in politics much longer."

That doesn't make the concept of public unions idiotic. True, the private sector unions and their bosses have more grounds for mitigation, and there are less conflicts of interest working for a nicer equilibrium in the private realm. But public workers, like teachers or mail carriers, can be abused by administrators. And it's a convenient method of organization and representation of their interests.

blaise
02-24-2011, 08:05 AM
Texas, really? Amazon?

Are you trying to argue that Texas doesn't have a favorable business climate because of the Amazon situation?

patteeu
02-24-2011, 11:42 AM
If I wanted to spoon feed I'd have a kid. Google Texas and amazon.com

That's not how this works. I'm not going to make your arguments for you. If I wanted to do that, I'd stick my hand up your butt and use you like a puppet.

Saul Good
02-24-2011, 12:06 PM
That doesn't make the concept of public unions idiotic. True, the private sector unions and their bosses have more grounds for mitigation, and there are less conflicts of interest working for a nicer equilibrium in the private realm. But public workers, like teachers or mail carriers, can be abused by administrators. And it's a convenient method of organization and representation of their interests.

Public employees are more able to look out for their own interests than private employees in that their votes impact their employers directly.

Jenson71
02-24-2011, 12:33 PM
Public employees are more able to look out for their own interests than private employees in that their votes impact their employers directly.

No argument there. Public employees have an angle there. But idiotic to form a union? No.

whatsmynameagain
02-24-2011, 04:23 PM
Are you trying to argue that Texas doesn't have a favorable business climate because of the Amazon situation?

Taxes are running off a business and jobs, is it not? I just found it amusing how dick Perry operates. Dude is an idiot and a crook.

Patty, I'm not here to keep you informed

patteeu
02-24-2011, 04:51 PM
Taxes are running off a business and jobs, is it not? I just found it amusing how dick Perry operates. Dude is an idiot and a crook.

Patty, I'm not here to keep you informed

I can only conclude that it isn't much of an argument if you can't even make it.

blaise
02-24-2011, 07:07 PM
Taxes are running off a business and jobs, is it not? I just found it amusing how dick Perry operates. Dude is an idiot and a crook.

Patty, I'm not here to keep you informed

No, I wouldn't say taxes in Texas are generally running off jobs. I don't count Amazon as the rule if that's what you're saying.

blaise
02-24-2011, 07:08 PM
I can only conclude that it isn't much of an argument if you can't even make it.

It's basically what orange does. He just post links to stories about someone on the right doing something wrong.

HonestChieffan
02-24-2011, 07:13 PM
It's basically what orange does. He just post links to stories about someone on the right doing something wrong.

More productive than searching high and low for something a democrat is doing right.....

Saul Good
02-24-2011, 07:36 PM
Taxes are running off a business and jobs, is it not?

So you admit that high taxes run off business and jobs. There's hope for you yet.


I'm not here to keep you informed
You've gone out of your way to prove this point.

Radar Chief
02-24-2011, 08:15 PM
Patty, I'm not here to keep you informed

Hey, I understand. Seriously. There are occasions when I don't have the time to search up links to articles that help illustrate my point. So you know what I do about it? I STFU until I have the time to search up links to articles that backup my point.
Apparently that's just me though.

patteeu
02-24-2011, 08:33 PM
Hey, I understand. Seriously. There are occasions when I don't have the time to search up links to articles that help illustrate my point. So you know what I do about it? I STFU until I have the time to search up links to articles that backup my point.
Apparently that's just me though.

Or at the very least, describe the situation in your own words instead of saying "google keyword1 and keyword2".

Saul Good
02-24-2011, 09:10 PM
Or at the very least, describe the situation in your own words instead of saying "google keyword1 and keyword2".

Bottom line is that amazon.com is threatening to leave the state of Texas over claims of sales tax owed to the state. Why WMNA is trying to use this example to discredit the idea that pro-business tax policies encourage job creation and vice versa is beyond me.

pat: Favorable tax policy encourages business and leads to higher employment.

KCN: Some cities have tried to lure businesses via tax breaks, and their economies still suck.

pat: Those cities are failing due to overall mismanagement, not because of the tax policies. Texas tends to be pro-business, and their economy is doing relatively well.

WMNA: Amazon.com is leaving Texas because they perceive the tax burden to be too high.

Saul: Thanks for proving that companies take into account taxation levels when determining where to do business despite what KCN seems to think.

KC native
02-24-2011, 09:19 PM
Bottom line is that amazon.com is threatening to leave the state of Texas over claims of sales tax owed to the state. Why WMNA is trying to use this example to discredit the idea that pro-business tax policies encourage job creation and vice versa is beyond me.

pat: Favorable tax policy encourages business and leads to higher employment.

KCN: Some cities have tried to lure businesses via tax breaks, and their economies still suck.

pat: Those cities are failing due to overall mismanagement, not because of the tax policies. Texas tends to be pro-business, and their economy is doing relatively well.

WMNA: Amazon.com is leaving Texas because they perceive the tax burden to be too high.

Saul: Thanks for proving that companies take into account taxation levels when determining where to do business despite what KCN seems to think.

Again, when you can show empirical proof that these corporate give aways are beneficial to the areas that have them then you will be the first.

Ignoring Texas' vast natural resources as the reason for Texas' relatively better economy and crediting it to taxes is fucking ridiculous.

chiefzilla1501
02-25-2011, 06:44 AM
Again, when you can show empirical proof that these corporate give aways are beneficial to the areas that have them then you will be the first.

Ignoring Texas' vast natural resources as the reason for Texas' relatively better economy and crediting it to taxes is ****ing ridiculous.

Yeah ,but the private sector isn't only talking about corporations. It's also talking about small businesses and there's no doubt a lot of small businesses are getting squeezed and squeezed by the government. And there are plenty of studies that point to small businesses and entrepreneurship being a major engine for success in the US.

I know there has been some small investment by the gov't into small businesses under Obama, but it needs to be a renewed focus. And again, for the record, I am not for lowering taxes. I am just a firm believer that we need to get more bang for the buck for the taxes we pay. Case in point, I'm being forced to sink over 5% of my paycheck for a retirement fund I'm never going to use. That's bullshit.