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Okie_Apparition
02-20-2011, 05:57 PM
Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."

Take the world as a whole. Does this mean there will be few Americans living today that make it to heaven?

alnorth
02-20-2011, 06:02 PM
It means that the church had to figure out a way to keep their wealthier members in line. A thousand or so years ago those golden decorations and soft lifestyle for the clergy didn't pay for themselves, the need for donations and tithing was high. This was one of many passages they invented to wield like a club.

KILLER_CLOWN
02-20-2011, 06:44 PM
You can't serve two masters, most worship Money.

Bewbies
02-20-2011, 06:46 PM
Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."

Take the world as a whole. Does this mean there will be few Americans living today that make it to heaven?

Do you know what "the eye of a needle' is? If I told you it is possible for a camel to get through the eye of a needle would you believe me?

mnchiefsguy
02-20-2011, 06:50 PM
Do you know what "the eye of a needle' is? If I told you it is possible for a camel to get through the eye of a needle would you believe me?

I read or heard somewhere that the "eye of the needle" was actually a reference to a gate in Jerusalem that was so short and narrow, that if a camel needed to go through it, it basically has to go through on its knees with very little on its back. Not sure how true this though, as I filed it under curious facts in my brain and never went back and did any research on it.

Bewbies
02-20-2011, 06:54 PM
I read or heard somewhere that the "eye of the needle" was actually a reference to a gate in Jerusalem that was so short and narrow, that if a camel needed to go through it, it basically has to go through on its knees with very little on its back. Not sure how true this though, as I filed it under curious facts in my brain and never went back and did any research on it.

Yep. The truth doesn't fit the narrative though, so why bother?

mnchiefsguy
02-20-2011, 06:57 PM
Yep. The truth doesn't fit the narrative though, so why bother?

The point I have always taken from that passage is that if you become obsessed with wealth, worship it, and let it consume your life, it will ultimately consume your soul. I think there are wealthy people in heaven, they are just the ones that ruled their money, and not let their money or greed rule them.

Bewbies
02-20-2011, 06:58 PM
The point I have always taken from that passage is that if you become obsessed with wealth, worship it, and let it consume your life, it will ultimately consume your soul. I think there are wealthy people in heaven, they are just the ones that ruled their money, and not let their money or greed rule them.

Nope "the rich" are evil. Like King Soloman. EVEEEEEIIIILLLLLL!

Chiefshrink
02-20-2011, 07:07 PM
I read or heard somewhere that the "eye of the needle" was actually a reference to a gate in Jerusalem that was so short and narrow, that if a camel needed to go through it, it basically has to go through on its knees with very little on its back. Not sure how true this though, as I filed it under curious facts in my brain and never went back and did any research on it.

Right on:thumb: It does fit the narrative IMO. Like you said the camel would have to get on its knees and get rid of most of the "stuff"(materialism) to get through the "needle".

Basically the camel's effort to get through the needle is symbolic yet very literal to those that follow Christ. On your knees to worship and not burdened down with "stuff"($$$/materialism) that could easily become man's new idol of worship.

Most think it's a "sewing needle".

Chiefshrink
02-20-2011, 07:12 PM
Nope "the rich" are evil. Like King Soloman. EVEEEEEIIIILLLLLL!

I get your point Bewb:thumb: But in reality it is the worship of $$/materialism making them "soley" your security as opposed to Christ being your sole security. And many Christians give lip service to this verse but in reality it is their $$/stuff that is their real security.:thumb:

KILLER_CLOWN
02-20-2011, 07:14 PM
Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.

Bewbies
02-20-2011, 07:16 PM
Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.

So being rich is still evil?

KILLER_CLOWN
02-20-2011, 07:18 PM
So being rich is still evil?

No, devoting all of your time to gathering money is. Much like any other addiction.

Bewbies
02-20-2011, 07:20 PM
No, devoting all of your time to gathering money is. Much like any other addiction.
:thumb:

Chiefshrink
02-20-2011, 07:25 PM
These next 5-10yrs IMO God will be seperating the wheat(real believers) from the chaff(luke warm fake Christians/Non-believers) using severe economic turmoil that man has caused in order to identify who are truly His sheep.

In the end times there will be a great Christian harvest. And the last I checked throughout Christian history and world history in general, the only time Christianity has ever had huge growing pains/great harvests is during 'great persecution'. Much Christian conversion will happen during the "tribulation period" but I believe also there will a great deal prior to the tribulation period.

KILLER_CLOWN
02-20-2011, 07:29 PM
These next 5-10yrs IMO God will be seperating the wheat(real believers) from the chaff(luke warm fake Christians/Non-believers) using severe economic turmoil that man has caused in order to identify who are truly His sheep.

In the end times there will be a great Christian harvest. And the last I checked throughout Christian history and world history in general, the only time Christianity has ever had huge growing pains/great harvests is during 'great persecution'. Much Christian conversion will happen during the "tribulation period" but I believe also there will a great deal prior to the tribulation period.

Get ready for your wilderness experience.

Chiefshrink
02-20-2011, 07:36 PM
:thumb:

Nothing wrong with being wealthy beyond belief as long as it is not your God and you realize that your wealth "is not yours" but it really is God's and you are 'just a steward' of it to do his "evangelistic work". Can you still have fun with the wealth that God has allowed you to accumulate? Absolutely!!:thumb:
But most have a difficult time allowing God to be first before 'wealth' only giving lip service to God and observing their actions otherwise.

Chiefshrink
02-20-2011, 07:37 PM
Get ready for your wilderness experience.

No manure:thumb:

Chiefshrink
02-20-2011, 07:46 PM
So being rich is still evil?

Naaaaaaaaaaah, then Billy Graham would be evil. I guarantee you he is a multi-millionaire but he lives a very humble life and his wealth is always at Christ's disposal for the Kingdom.

Prayer and service to the Lord are the "keys" to keep your proper perspective of $$ in general so that $$/stuff 'never' become an idol:thumb:

.

whatsmynameagain
02-20-2011, 08:15 PM
Nothing wrong with being wealthy beyond belief as long as it is not your God and you realize that your wealth "is not yours" but it really is God's and you are 'just a steward' of it to do his "evangelistic work". Can you still have fun with the wealth that God has allowed you to accumulate? Absolutely!!:thumb:
But most have a difficult time allowing God to be first before 'wealth' only giving lip service to God and observing their actions otherwise.

So it really is god making game winning shots? Replace god with the words gila monster and reread your post. Maybe then you could realize how mentally fucked you are.

KILLER_CLOWN
02-20-2011, 08:17 PM
So it really is god making game winning shots? Replace god with the words gila monster and reread your post. Maybe then you could realize how mentally ****ed you are.

Without GOD their wouldn't be a game winning shot, we owe it all to him. :D

Chiefshrink
02-20-2011, 08:21 PM
So it really is god making game winning shots? Replace god with the words gila monster and reread your post. Maybe then you could realize how mentally ****ed you are.

Wow:eek: You need serious prayer for your "atheistic bitter heart":thumb:

Pitt Gorilla
02-20-2011, 08:29 PM
Yep. The truth doesn't fit the narrative though, so why bother?The "gate" explanation should be considered the "truth?" Do you have a citation to verify that? I've often wondered about it, but my Catholic friends have repeatedly claimed that the "gate" explanation is crap. Evidently, the Jerome Commentary says otherwise. I honestly don't know, but I do find it hard to believe that you know the "truth."

Norman Einstein
02-20-2011, 08:30 PM
So based on popular belief here people such as King David, Solomon, Abraham and others were not allowed into heaven?

KILLER_CLOWN
02-20-2011, 08:32 PM
So based on popular belief here people such as King David, Abraham and others were not allowed into heaven?

ummmm no they didn't worship money, they followed The Lord. It also doesn't really matter what anyones opinion is, Gods version of events is all that matters and he seemed to like them.

Pitt Gorilla
02-20-2011, 08:32 PM
So based on popular belief here people such as King David, Solomon, Abraham and others were not allowed into heaven?I'm not sure any of us can verify what happened to them, other than they died.

stevieray
02-20-2011, 08:35 PM
...it means it's difficult.

because ultimately, you can't serve two masters.

nothing wrong with having riches, it's how you approach and handle it.

the path to destruction is wide, while the path to righteousness is narrow.

gblowfish
02-20-2011, 09:02 PM
Most rich people wouldn't let Jesus into their gated community.

Unless, of course, he was there do to the yard work.

Chiefshrink
02-20-2011, 09:23 PM
The "gate" explanation should be considered the "truth?" Do you have a citation to verify that? I've often wondered about it, but my Catholic friends have repeatedly claimed that the "gate" explanation is crap. Evidently, the Jerome Commentary says otherwise. I honestly don't know, but I do find it hard to believe that you know the "truth."

Here is a commentary I found that breaks it down pretty good. But whether an actual narrow gate or actual sewing needle the point is, is that it is difficult for a rich man(whose focus is not God first) to get into heaven.

Biblical Hebrew and its New Testament application. Hebrew idioms buried in overly literal Greek. 'The camel and the eye of the needle', Matthew 19:24

CONTENTS / HOME
HEBREW NEW TESTAMENT STUDIES
MORE NT STUDIES

'The camel and the eye of the needle', Matthew 19:24, Mark 10:25, Luke 18:25

Just where is that gate in Jerusalem?
"It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God." (Matthew 19:24)

For the last two centuries it has been common teaching in Sunday School that there is a gate in Jerusalem called the eye of the needle through which a camel could not pass unless it stooped and first had all its baggage first removed. After dark, when the main gates were shut, travellers or merchants would have to use this smaller gate, through which the camel could only enter unencumbered and crawling on its knees! Great sermon material, with the parallels of coming to God on our knees without all our baggage. A lovely story and an excellent parable for preaching but unfortunately unfounded!

From at least the 15th century, and possibly as early as the 9th but not earlier, this story has been put forth, however, there is no evidence for such a gate, nor record of reprimand of the architect who may have forgotten to make a gate big enough for the camel and rider to pass through unhindered.

Variations on this theme include that of ancient inns having small entrances to thwart thieves, or the story of an old mountain pass known as the "eye of the needle", so narrow that merchants would have to dismount from their camels and were thus easier prey for brigands lying in wait.

Mangled Greek maybe?

There are some differences in the transmitted Greek. The needle in Matthew and Mark is a rafic. In Luke it is a belone. But both are synonyms for needles used in sewing, but Luke's is more likely to be used by a surgeon than a seamstress.

Another possible solution comes from the possibility of a Greek misprint. The suggestion is that the Greek word kamilos ('camel') should really be kamźlos, meaning 'cable, rope', as some late New Testament manuscripts1 actually have here. Hence it is easier to thread a needle with a rope rather than a strand of cotton than for a rich man to enter the kingdom. A neat but unnecessary solution!

A variation on all of the above is that the needle was a 6 inch carpet needle and the rope was made of camel hair- but this is again clutching at straws or camel hair, and is an unnecessary emendation.

Makes sense in Aramaic

An alternative linguistic explanation is taken from George M Lamsa's Syriac-Aramaic Peshitta translation2 which has the word 'rope' in the main text but a footnote on Matthew 19:24 which states that the Aramaic word gamla means rope and camel, possibly because the ropes were made from camel hair. Evidence for this also comes from the 10th century Aramaic lexicographer Mar Bahlul who gives the meaning as a "a large rope used to bind ships". (cf. http://www.aramaicnt.org/HTML/LUKE/evidences/Camel.html)

Some have even suggested a pun in Aramaic between camel and gnat or louse from the Aramaic kalma 'vermin, louse'.

Just as the apocryphal Acts of Peter and Andrew3 refers the saying to a literal camel and needle, so we are not meant to reason away the apparent difficulty of getting a camel through a needle's eye. For the difficulty is not apparent it is real, and not be solved by textual trickery but by taking the ludicrous language at face value.

What we have instead then, I believe, is a beautiful Hebrew hyperbole, as in the tree sticking out of one's eye whilst one is removing a speck in another's eye! Indeed, Jewish Talmudic literature uses a similar aphorism about an elephant passing through the eye of a needle as a figure of speech implying the unlikely or impossible:

"They do not show a man a palm tree of gold, nor an elephant going through the eye of a needle."4
This first instance concerned dreams and their interpretation and suggested that men only dream that which is natural or possible, not that which is unlikely ever to have occurred to them.
"… who can make an elephant pass through the eye of a needle."5
In this case, the illustration concerns a dispute between two rabbis, one of whom suggests that the other is speaking "things which are impossible".

The camel was the largest animal seen regularly in Israel, whereas in regions where the Babylonian Talmud was written, the elephant was the biggest animal. Thus the aphorism is culturally translated from a camel to an elephant in regions outside of Israel.

The aim is not, then, to explain away the paradox and make the needle a huge carpet needle for, elsewhere, the Jewish writings use the "eye of the needle" as a picture of a very small place, "A needle's eye is not too narrow for two friends, but the world is not wide enough for two enemies."6 . The ludicrous contrast between the small size of the needle's eye and the largest indigenous animal is to be preserved for its very improbability.

Jesus' hearers believed that wealth and prosperity were a sign of God's blessing (cf. Leviticus and Deuteronomy). So their incredulity is more along the lines that, "if the rich, who must be seen as righteous by God by dint of their evident blessing, can't be saved, who can be?". Later Christians have turned this around to portray wealth as a hindrance to salvation, which it can be – but no more so than many other things, when the message is that salvation is impossible for all men for it comes from God alone.

But beyond impossibility is possibility with God for, elsewhere, a Jewish midrash records:
"The Holy One said, open for me a door as big as a needle's eye and I will open for you a door through which may enter tents and [camels?]"7
In other words God only needs the sinner to open up just a crack for him and God will come pouring in and set up room for an oasis. God only needs a 'foot in the door', so to speak.

This is similar to the Talmudic use of two Hebrew letters, one which represents God holiness ('Q' Qoph, as in qadōsh 'holy') and another representing evil ('R' Resh, as in ra' 'evil'), in a story told for the purpose of teaching the Hebrew alphabet and Jewish morals. It is said that 'q' has a separated opening in order that should 'r' repent he may enter into God's holiness through the small opening.

A brief survey of sermons or search on the Internet reveals how many perpetuate the myth of the small gate in Jerusalem. Victorian travellers to the Holy Land even claim to have been shown it. The inaccuracy may appear harmless but it is neither good scholarship nor good exposition. The exaggerated and contrasted size is deliberate and is not an overt judgement on riches or poverty. Jesus reflects on how hard it often is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God. The riches are a distraction and hard to share if one is too attached to them. The disciples' incredulity is that if even the rich cannot be saved, who can? But the verdict is that even the rich, not only the rich, will find it impossible to save themselves – but with God all things are possible.

Mr. Kotter
02-20-2011, 09:27 PM
Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."

Take the world as a whole. Does this mean there will be few Americans living today that make it to heaven?

Greed and excess are a real bitch. Ain't too many, truly "rich" bitches...gonna see paradise, baby. Cause "paradise" to them, is just "heaven on earth" and it's a really cool song to them...they love it. A lot. Heh.

Chiefshrink
02-20-2011, 09:33 PM
Put all the wealth and paradise places here on earth together and they will be "spit in the wind" compared to living with Jesus in paradise.

Mr. Kotter
02-20-2011, 09:46 PM
Put all the wealth and paradise places here on earth together and they will be "spit in the wind" compared to living with Jesus in paradise.

Then why do so many only care about themselves and "theirs" in the 'here'? Cause the here-after's gonnna kick their azzes...heh. Just sayin'...you know, those bi-atches are gonna die. Truth be told. Heh.

Bewbies
02-20-2011, 11:35 PM
The "gate" explanation should be considered the "truth?" Do you have a citation to verify that? I've often wondered about it, but my Catholic friends have repeatedly claimed that the "gate" explanation is crap. Evidently, the Jerome Commentary says otherwise. I honestly don't know, but I do find it hard to believe that you know the "truth."

When I was in Bethlehem we were entering the Greek Orthodox church where many believe Jesus was born. Anyway, on site is the small gate and the priest spent 30 seconds explaining to us what that gate was. He explained how a camel could get through, but it would have to scoot on it's knees, lower it's head, and couldn't be carrying anything. He also said most camels would never do it because they are a very stubborn animal, and very few listen to their owner.

Pretty fascinating actually, once you've seen the gate, heard how applied, and watched a few people handle a camel how much different this scripture reads over here than over there.

Bewbies
02-20-2011, 11:42 PM
I'll add I'd recommend a trip to Israel for anyone. The bible reads a lot different when you've seen the places talked about, the culture etc in person.

Norman Einstein
02-21-2011, 05:34 AM
I'm not sure any of us can verify what happened to them, other than they died.

Obviously you are not a believer, so why do you have a problem with those that do? What harm comes to you because a few of the members here have faith?

ummmm no they didn't worship money, they followed The Lord. It also doesn't really matter what anyones opinion is, Gods version of events is all that matters and he seemed to like them.

You need to read things again, King David was not a nice person yet he was forgiven on all counts. Of those owners in the NFL you need to point out which of them worship money, which of them are believers in a religion of one form or another.

After all, money is not the issue. The love of money is

Lurk
02-21-2011, 07:20 AM
"Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.” Matthew 24:26

King_Chief_Fan
02-21-2011, 07:27 AM
...it means it's difficult.

because ultimately, you can't serve two masters.

nothing wrong with having riches, it's how you approach and handle it.

the path to destruction is wide, while the path to righteousness is narrow.

exactly

Jaric
02-21-2011, 07:33 AM
I've always found it interesting to see men and women claim to "know" what the almighty is thinking. I wonder how many problems could have been avoided the past millenia if we all approached the divine with a little bit more humility?

EDIT: I don't want to give the impression I think that having faith is bad. Quite the opposite.

Pitt Gorilla
02-21-2011, 07:47 AM
Obviously you are not a believer, so why do you have a problem with those that do? What harm comes to you because a few of the members here have faith?



You need to read things again, King David was not a nice person yet he was forgiven on all counts. Of those owners in the NFL you need to point out which of them worship money, which of them are believers in a religion of one form or another.

After all, money is not the issue. The love of money isI'm very much a believer, but perhaps you really are a better judge of my relationship with God.

The Mad Crapper
02-21-2011, 07:48 AM
Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."



It means people who love their possessions more than they love God will have a hard time getting into Heaven.

A person on welfare in the USA has greater riches than the richest Jew in Jerusalem in 10 BC.

whatsmynameagain
02-21-2011, 08:34 AM
Wow:eek: You need serious prayer for your "atheistic bitter heart":thumb:

Well I hope you enjoy communism in heaven because that's exactly what it is.

fan4ever
02-21-2011, 08:52 AM
Wow:eek: You need serious prayer for your "atheistic bitter heart":thumb:

He gets off on trying to piss off Christians; he rarely misses a chance from what I've seen.

Faith is a very hard thing, even for us who believe...so folks like whatsmynameagain who seem to have none are not hard for me to understand, but his desire to insult those who do is just a sad...mostly for him.

Like I said, faith is hard, but my life experience has shown me very few things in life worth pursuing are easy.

Brock
02-21-2011, 08:55 AM
It means that the church had to figure out a way to keep their wealthier members in line. A thousand or so years ago those golden decorations and soft lifestyle for the clergy didn't pay for themselves, the need for donations and tithing was high. This was one of many passages they invented to wield like a club.

/thread

KILLER_CLOWN
02-21-2011, 09:00 AM
You need to read things again, King David was not a nice person yet he was forgiven on all counts. Of those owners in the NFL you need to point out which of them worship money, which of them are believers in a religion of one form or another.

After all, money is not the issue. The love of money is

I've already stated this and i know David did some bad things but he was a man after God's own heart and was forgiven.

Norman Einstein
02-21-2011, 11:33 AM
I'm very much a believer, but perhaps you really are a better judge of my relationship with God.

It seems as if you tend to hide any relationship with God, your commentary has always been "unGodly", I suppose you are Godly when it serves your purposes.

So, you are in line with most judging the owners as lovers of money before God? I guess that makes your judgment of others in the same light as you call mine.

good move pitts.

Norman Einstein
02-21-2011, 11:39 AM
I've already stated this and i know David did some bad things but he was a man after God's own heart and was forgiven.

So you stick with the main thrust of the thread that all NFL owners are not like King David? Are they all lovers of money?

I have only met one NFL Owner and I couldn't judge his position regarding love of money over anything else other than his love for the Team he owned at the time.

Is the love of the game the same as loving money?

KILLER_CLOWN
02-21-2011, 11:45 AM
So you stick with the main thrust of the thread that all NFL owners are not like King David? Are they all lovers of money?

I have only met one NFL Owner and I couldn't judge his position regarding love of money over anything else other than his love for the Team he owned at the time.

Is the love of the game the same as loving money?

No i have not referred to NFL Owners, it isn't up to me to judge them and definitely not as a whole. Love of the game has nothing to do with the love of money. I'm sure it's a passion in life and as long as it's not placed above God i don't see a problem with it.

Pitt Gorilla
02-21-2011, 12:01 PM
It seems as if you tend to hide any relationship with God, your commentary has always been "unGodly", I suppose you are Godly when it serves your purposes.

So, you are in line with most judging the owners as lovers of money before God? I guess that makes your judgment of others in the same light as you call mine.

good move pitts.To which "owners" are you referring?

Also, my relationship with God is my business, not yours. It appears that doesn't sit well with your need to judge, but you've got to do what you've got to do.

Bewbies
02-21-2011, 02:28 PM
To which "owners" are you referring?

Also, my relationship with God is my business, not yours. It appears that doesn't sit well with your need to judge, but you've got to do what you've got to do.

I like that. Too many folks are quick to point out John 3:16 and quick to ignore John 3:17. :thumb:

Pitt Gorilla
02-21-2011, 03:26 PM
I like that. Too many folks are quick to point out John 3:16 and quick to ignore John 3:17. :thumb:We're doing a song for Easter that incorporates that passage.

Norman Einstein
02-21-2011, 05:47 PM
To which "owners" are you referring?

Also, my relationship with God is my business, not yours. It appears that doesn't sit well with your need to judge, but you've got to do what you've got to do.

What's ironic is that you have found it your providence to judge me at every turn. I suppose that's OK in your "religion"?

Instead of saying "Judge not lest you be judged" you just might need to STFU. Ya think?

We're doing a song for Easter that incorporates that passage.

Sure you are.:rolleyes:

Brock
02-21-2011, 05:49 PM
You judge people all the time, Tom. Jesus hates hypocrites.

Pioli Zombie
02-21-2011, 05:55 PM
Most Christians in america worship their political viewpoints. That's their hypocrisy. Mine? I worship womens bodies. But I'm not a hypocrite because I hold my dick in church.

Norman Einstein
02-21-2011, 05:56 PM
You judge people all the time, Tom. Jesus hates hypocrites.

I doubt that you know enough to even say anything referring to Jesus, but that's a given based on your history.

So that puts me right in the very same spot you are in. I'm just exactly like you and virtually every other poster on this board.

What you should really think about is that God hates all sin and your hate is sin. OOPS!!!!!

BigCatDaddy
02-21-2011, 06:02 PM
Kingdom of God does not equal Heaven by the way.

Brock
02-21-2011, 06:03 PM
I doubt that you know enough to even say anything referring to Jesus, but that's a given based on your history.

So that puts me right in the very same spot you are in. I'm just exactly like you and virtually every other poster on this board.

What you should really think about is that God hates all sin and your hate is sin. OOPS!!!!!

Hate? I'm amused by you. Very, very amused.

Norman Einstein
02-21-2011, 06:23 PM
Hate? I'm amused by you. Very, very amused.Sure, your hatred has been evident for a long time here, but do try to slip out the back door with it so you can fool all of the others here.

When you figure out that you are no different than anyone else you might fare a little better.

Best that you get back to Church and repent. You've done enough sinning this evening to keep you there for a while.

Brock
02-21-2011, 06:28 PM
Sure, your hatred has been evident for a long time here, but do try to slip out the back door with it so you can fool all of the others here.

When you figure out that you are no different than anyone else you might fare a little better.

Best that you get back to Church and repent. You've done enough sinning this evening to keep you there for a while.

Actually, it's you who should go to Church, Tom. You're a bitter little old man who's done a lot of lying and deceiving.

SNR
02-21-2011, 06:42 PM
Jesus told us to be fishers of men, Tom.

When you go off the wire on your ultra-defensive, hateful, and judgmental rants, you're not fishing with a pole. You're fishing by poisoning the waters. That's no way to catch fish, and it ruins the waters for the rest of us trying to be good servants of God.

It's hilarious to watch you be a persnickety old stinkmeaner and then claim people aren't allowed to judge you when you're doing the exact same thing.

Okie_Apparition
02-21-2011, 06:50 PM
Lots of wonderful opinions. I wondered how this applied to all the money the Pope sits on. There are lots of over the top churches(Mansions) from all religions out there, with all the starving in the world.

Norman Einstein
02-21-2011, 07:55 PM
Actually, it's you who should go to Church, Tom. You're a bitter little old man who's done a lot of lying and deceiving.

I do go to church, I've never claimed to be perfect, it seems like you have the market on that cornered. I suggest that you need to go to church more than anyone. Seem the judging is all on you at the moment.

Just another case of the pot calling the kettle black.

Ironic isn't it, you are no better than I am! ROFL

Jesus told us to be fishers of men, Tom.

When you go off the wire on your ultra-defensive, hateful, and judgmental rants, you're not fishing with a pole. You're fishing by poisoning the waters. That's no way to catch fish, and it ruins the waters for the rest of us trying to be good servants of God.

It's hilarious to watch you be a persnickety old stinkmeaner and then claim people aren't allowed to judge you when you're doing the exact same thing.

Once again, I've never claimed to never have judged anyone, it's people like you that always try to turn your problems to others. If I were perfect I'd not be here.

Tell me about how clean you are in your life. Never sinned and never judged anyone ... OH, wait a minute, you just did that. I guess that one's out. I've never seen you even once show signs of being a good servant of God. Your language as well as your hate mongering seems to show you out.

When you get your back yard cleaned bubba, then you can turn your evil eyes towards me and try to get me back on the straight and narrow.

You are right about something, Jesus asked us all to be fishers of men, seems like your recent comment has poisoned the waters as badly as you have accused me.

Nice little bit of judging on your part.

I think "Judge not lest ye be judged fits you well too.

BTW, I go t the same catholic church Jenson goes to.

SNR
02-21-2011, 08:24 PM
Once again, I've never claimed to never have judged anyone.That's all you do is judge. It's not an occasional sin. It's a lifestyle with you. And it never comes in little snide comments. It's usually vicious, unprovoked, and petulant. Example:

Totally innocent comment from Pitt Gorilla. What do you do? You judge him. You made assumptions about his belief.

Go ahead and justify your behavior with the "throw the first stone" bit. All it does is represent you as a bitter old man.

stevieray
02-21-2011, 08:32 PM
That's all you do is judge. It's not an occasional sin. It's a lifestyle with you. And it never comes in little snide comments. It's usually vicious, unprovoked, and petulant. Example:

Totally innocent comment from Pitt Gorilla. What do you do? You judge him. You made assumptions about his belief.

Go ahead and justify your behavior with the "throw the first stone" bit. All it does is represent you as a bitter old man.

just stop.

it doesn't say don't judge...it says if you judge, be prepared to be judged.

..that apllies to ALL of us.

whatsmynameagain
02-21-2011, 08:41 PM
Put all the wealth and paradise places here on earth together and they will be "spit in the wind" compared to living with Jesus in paradise.

Yeah but in heaven there will be people of color in those places, how's that gonna work when you no longer feel you are better than anyone else? If everyone gets the same treatment and access to perfection, there is no competition. Sounds an awful lot like a big red square, eh comrade?

whatsmynameagain
02-21-2011, 08:50 PM
He gets off on trying to piss off Christians; he rarely misses a chance from what I've seen.

Faith is a very hard thing, even for us who believe...so folks like whatsmynameagain who seem to have none are not hard for me to understand, but his desire to insult those who do is just a sad...mostly for him.

Like I said, faith is hard, but my life experience has shown me very few things in life worth pursuing are easy.

I didn't insult him but now that you mention it, you're fucking goon. Now I insulted somebody.

whatsmynameagain
02-21-2011, 08:53 PM
It seems as if you tend to hide any relationship with God, your commentary has always been "unGodly", I suppose you are Godly when it serves your purposes.

So, you are in line with most judging the owners as lovers of money before God? I guess that makes your judgment of others in the same light as you call mine.

good move pitts.


Holier than thou much?

SNR
02-21-2011, 08:56 PM
just stop.

it doesn't say don't judge...it says if you judge, be prepared to be judged.

..that apllies to ALL of us.Reading comprehension much?

Brock
02-21-2011, 09:01 PM
just stop.

it doesn't say don't judge...it says if you judge, be prepared to be judged.

..that apllies to ALL of us.

Great, as long as you're not a hypocrite, which is who Jesus was supposedly addressing. Tom is the biggest hypocrite on the board.

Norman Einstein
02-21-2011, 09:48 PM
Great, as long as you're not a hypocrite, which is who Jesus was supposedly addressing. Tom is the biggest hypocrite on the board.

No, I'm not. There isn't any grade of hypocrite, you are either one or your are not. You are no different than me.

I would like for you to name one single person on this board that is not a hypocrite. Just one.

I would give you a hint, there are none. The only human that ever walked the earth that was not a hypocrite was Jesus. Once you get that one little fact down you will know that you are nothing different than me.

Once again, you have judged me, showing signs of your level of being a hypocrite.

You being a hypocrite doesn't bother me, because you are liable to God for your sins, not me. I can say anything I please and me being a rotten bastard and you calling me out for it only muddies your salvation, not mine. I get to do that all by my self, as you do.

You and I are exactly the same, imperfect human beings on the planet earth.

Keep whining about me, but all the while you should be working on yourself. I doubt your blindness to your own hypocrisy is where you have your comfort zone.

You do realize that as much as you hate me, you do nothing more than to keep pointing out your own weakness as a christian.

Get over yourself, or at least do your best to quit being a hypocrite.

stevieray
02-21-2011, 10:23 PM
Reading comprehension much?

writing comprehension much?

SNR
02-21-2011, 10:31 PM
writing comprehension much?That makes no sense. Try using English, please.

I used that story correctly. Tom is a judgmental asshole. I call him out on it. He tells me everybody is guilty of judging each other. He's using that line of bullshit, not me. If you're going to correct somebody in this thread, it's not me.

stevieray
02-21-2011, 10:34 PM
at one time or another, we all suck at fishing.

Useful Idiot
02-21-2011, 10:55 PM
the believers in this thread are really poor ambassadors for their religion.

Bewbies
02-22-2011, 12:08 AM
the believers in this thread are really poor ambassadors for their religion.

Nobody's perfect? :facepalm:

fan4ever
02-22-2011, 09:53 AM
I didn't insult him but now that you mention it, you're ****ing goon. Now I insulted somebody.

"So it really is god making game winning shots? Replace god with the words gila monster and reread your post. Maybe then you could realize how mentally ****ed you are."

:rolleyes:

I don't think I'm the first person on this thread you insulted, but hey, who's counting?

You're such a special fella. I hope you're impressed with yourself 'cause I'm pretty sure you're in the minority on that.

Jaric
02-22-2011, 10:04 AM
the believers in this thread are really poor ambassadors for their religion.

There does seem to be alot of anger in this thread.

fan4ever
02-22-2011, 10:22 AM
There does seem to be alot of anger in this thread.

Well that's human nature, isn't it...and like has been mentioned, we're certainly not perfect. Also, note who's trying to inflame the anger others.

Plus, that's right out of the anti-Christian playbook; insult someone's faith to the point of raising their ire, and then point out what poor examples they are because they should have just sat there and let their faith and their God be attacked.

Jaric
02-22-2011, 11:06 AM
Well that's human nature, isn't it...and like has been mentioned, we're certainly not perfect. Also, note who's trying to inflame the anger others.

Plus, that's right out of the anti-Christian playbook; insult someone's faith to the point of raising their ire, and then point out what poor examples they are because they should have just sat there and let their faith and their God be attacked.

What would Jesus do?

Probably depends on if "turn the other cheek" Jesus shows up or if "YOU HAVE DEFILIED MY FATHER'S HOUSE!" Jesus shows up.

But honestly, what difference does it makes if someone doesn't believe the same thing you do? If you're right, then they will have to make amends with God, and if you're wrong it won't matter anyway.

Besides, they want that reaction. Don't give it to them.

fan4ever
02-22-2011, 11:20 AM
What would Jesus do?

Probably depends on if "turn the other cheek" Jesus shows up or if "YOU HAVE DEFILIED MY FATHER'S HOUSE!" Jesus shows up.

But honestly, what difference does it makes if someone doesn't believe the same thing you do? If you're right, then they will have to make amends with God, and if you're wrong it won't matter anyway.

Besides, they want that reaction. Don't give it to them.

If you read my past posts, it doesn't matter to me...and to an extent I understand the whole faith issue...it's hard, and I certainly understand all of us not being on board. But those who just insult someone because they are of faith is just a level of ignorance I sometimes feel a need to speak to. Don't believe; great...just be grown up enough not to try and denegrate someone who does.

I do see your point about the reaction thing; these kind of remarks don't upset me and I usually ignore inflammatory remarks, but sometimes I jump in; again, frailties of being human.

whatsmynameagain
02-22-2011, 11:28 AM
"So it really is god making game winning shots? Replace god with the words gila monster and reread your post. Maybe then you could realize how mentally ****ed you are."

:rolleyes:

I don't think I'm the first person on this thread you insulted, but hey, who's counting?

You're such a special fella. I hope you're impressed with yourself 'cause I'm pretty sure you're in the minority on that.

I respond to crazy with truth. Sorry you believe in fiction.

whatsmynameagain
02-22-2011, 11:36 AM
If you read my past posts, it doesn't matter to me...and to an extent I understand the whole faith issue...it's hard, and I certainly understand all of us not being on board. But those who just insult someone because they are of faith is just a level of ignorance I sometimes feel a need to speak to. Don't believe; great...just be grown up enough not to try and denegrate someone who does.

I do see your point about the reaction thing; these kind of remarks don't upset me and I usually ignore inflammatory remarks, but sometimes I jump in; again, frailties of being human.

Not being on board with your mythology because faith is hard? Tons of crazies believe in things that don't exist and it has nothing to do with the level of difficulty.

fan4ever
02-22-2011, 11:49 AM
Not being on board with your mythology because faith is hard? Tons of crazies believe in things that don't exist and it has nothing to do with the level of difficulty.

You categorically don't understand what I'm talking about. Thanks for playing.

Jaric
02-22-2011, 11:50 AM
If you read my past posts, it doesn't matter to me...and to an extent I understand the whole faith issue...it's hard, and I certainly understand all of us not being on board. But those who just insult someone because they are of faith is just a level of ignorance I sometimes feel a need to speak to. Don't believe; great...just be grown up enough not to try and denegrate someone who does.

I do see your point about the reaction thing; these kind of remarks don't upset me and I usually ignore inflammatory remarks, but sometimes I jump in; again, frailties of being human.

I'm sorry, I should have pointed out that I was using the royal you there and not refering to you directly. Appologies for not being clear (I do make that mistake sometimes...as you said we're human)

fan4ever
02-22-2011, 11:54 AM
I'm sorry, I should have pointed out that I was using the royal you there and not refering to you directly. Appologies for not being clear (I do make that mistake sometimes...as you said we're human)

No problem :thumb:

Jaric
02-22-2011, 11:55 AM
I respond to crazy with truth. Sorry you believe in fiction.

You can no more successfully prove that God does not exist than the believers can prove he does. Your claims that you "know" what is out there are just as misguided as those who you mock.

The simple fact of the matter is that the creation of this world and what lays beyond it are simply outside the realm of human comprehension. Those that claim otherwise (regardless of which faith they profess) are guilty of hubris.

Fish
02-22-2011, 11:56 AM
I do go to church, I've never claimed to be perfect, it seems like you have the market on that cornered. I suggest that you need to go to church more than anyone. Seem the judging is all on you at the moment.

Just another case of the pot calling the kettle black.

Ironic isn't it, you are no better than I am! ROFL



Once again, I've never claimed to never have judged anyone, it's people like you that always try to turn your problems to others. If I were perfect I'd not be here.

Tell me about how clean you are in your life. Never sinned and never judged anyone ... OH, wait a minute, you just did that. I guess that one's out. I've never seen you even once show signs of being a good servant of God. Your language as well as your hate mongering seems to show you out.

When you get your back yard cleaned bubba, then you can turn your evil eyes towards me and try to get me back on the straight and narrow.

You are right about something, Jesus asked us all to be fishers of men, seems like your recent comment has poisoned the waters as badly as you have accused me.

Nice little bit of judging on your part.

I think "Judge not lest ye be judged fits you well too.

BTW, I go t the same catholic church Jenson goes to.

A fellow could pick just one of your posts Tom.... and see multiple examples of what type of person you are.

Useful Idiot
02-22-2011, 12:05 PM
Well that's human nature, isn't it...and like has been mentioned, we're certainly not perfect. Also, note who's trying to inflame the anger others.

Plus, that's right out of the anti-Christian playbook; insult someone's faith to the point of raising their ire, and then point out what poor examples they are because they should have just sat there and let their faith and their God be attacked.

I doubt you were targeting me specifically, but I haven't insulted anyone. Although I do agree that religion in itself is beyond logical thinking. If you look at some of the staples of Christianity....(virgin birth, resurrection, creating the universe in 6 days etc....) they are the LEAST probable occurrences out of every possible scientific and historical outcome.

We already know that the earth was not created in 6 days some 4-5 thousand years ago.

Was Jesus born of a virgin? IDK, it's possible, but it is the least likely scenario of all the other possibilities. Take this for example...lets say Mary was actually having an affair with the neighbor and got knocked up....franticly she made up a story about being visited by the holy ghost and the town bought it and made her into a legend.

do I honestly believe that? no. but that little story is more logical and probable than her being a pregnant virgin. a highly unlikely event is far more probable than a virtually impossible one.

I could do the same with the resurrection. but you get the idea. (although, just out of curiosity...how many people do you think were at the tomb? do you know what day of the week it was?)

I'm not attacking your religion either. Just pointing out that historically and scientifically, christianity is not very logical.

Useful Idiot
02-22-2011, 12:10 PM
You can no more successfully prove that God does not exist than the believers can prove he does. Your claims that you "know" what is out there are just as misguided as those who you mock.

The simple fact of the matter is that the creation of this world and what lays beyond it are simply outside the realm of human comprehension. Those that claim otherwise (regardless of which faith they profess) are guilty of hubris.

not as hubris as you think.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmic_microwave_background_radiation

again....I am not attacking anyone an I dont claim to know anything for certain, except that the christian model is the least likely candidate of the other historical and scientific theories.

fan4ever
02-22-2011, 12:14 PM
I doubt you were targeting me specifically, but I haven't insulted anyone. Although I do agree that religion in itself is beyond logical thinking. If you look at some of the staples of Christianity....(virgin birth, resurrection, creating the universe in 6 days etc....) they are the LEAST probable occurrences out of every possible scientific and historical outcome.

I was not addressing you, and several of your points are part of what make faith difficult for many. I've simply had things happen in my life that removed for me all doubts of God...perhaps you'll have a simular journey one day.

Jaric
02-22-2011, 12:17 PM
not as hubris as you think.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmic_microwave_background_radiation

again....I am not attacking anyone an I dont claim to know anything for certain, except that the christian model is the least likely candidate of the other historical and scientific theories.

The big bang does not equal creation. Creation as we understand is a paradox. Not to unsimilar to the paradox of figuring out which came first, chicken or egg.

Even if we manage to explain and understand everything there is to know about what happened after the big bang occured, we won't have even touched a fraction of what there is to know about creation.

Does that mean about 5000 years ago, some grandfatherly figure up in the clouds said "Let there be light!" and light existed from there on out? Not at all. Only that in the grand scheme of things we still know very very little about how we got here.

fan4ever
02-22-2011, 12:19 PM
You can no more successfully prove that God does not exist than the believers can prove he does. Your claims that you "know" what is out there are just as misguided as those who you mock.

The simple fact of the matter is that the creation of this world and what lays beyond it are simply outside the realm of human comprehension. Those that claim otherwise (regardless of which faith they profess) are guilty of hubris.

You make great points...but unless he's a dolt, he knows that. He's just gets off insulting people. Probably had his ass kicked by a nun once...

...and remember...don't give him the satisfaction?

Jaric
02-22-2011, 12:20 PM
You make great points...but unless he's a dolt, he knows that. He's just gets off insulting people. Probably had his ass kicked by a nun once...

...and remember...don't give him the satisfaction?

Frailty, human, ect ect. :D

(besides, I'm not angry when I post that, hope it didn't come off that way.)

Useful Idiot
02-22-2011, 12:26 PM
The big bang does not equal creation. Creation as we understand is a paradox. Not to unsimilar to the paradox of figuring out which came first, chicken or egg.

Even if we manage to explain and understand everything there is to know about what happened after the big bang occured, we won't have even touched a fraction of what there is to know about creation.

Does that mean about 5000 years ago, some grandfatherly figure up in the clouds said "Let there be light!" and light existed from there on out? Not at all. Only that in the grand scheme of things we still know very very little about how we got here.

We know a lot more than you think we know. Unfortunately, the more we find out, the more unlikely it is that the christian model is factual.

Jaric
02-22-2011, 12:45 PM
We know a lot more than you think we know. Unfortunately, the more we find out, the more unlikely it is that the christian model is factual.

If that were the case, we'd probably know how much we actually don't know (which is usually the first step when you start figuring things out)

Useful Idiot
02-22-2011, 12:50 PM
oh yea.....there is still a lot to be learned for sure. But, in terms of how/when this earth was created and when humans roughly began to inhabit it....it's pretty clear that 'God' didnt do it. not according to the bibles version.

whatsmynameagain
02-22-2011, 03:50 PM
oh yea.....there is still a lot to be learned for sure. But, in terms of how/when this earth was created and when humans roughly began to inhabit it....it's pretty clear that 'God' didnt do it. not according to the bibles version.

They are praying to god the facts are wrong

fan4ever
02-22-2011, 04:18 PM
They are praying to god the facts are wrong

And you should give a crap why? If we are fools; let it be.

No one seems to be denying you your chance.

Pitt Gorilla
02-22-2011, 05:20 PM
And you should give a crap why? If we are fools; let it be.

No one seems to be denying you your chance.I think that's a main point of this sub-forum, no?

whatsmynameagain
02-22-2011, 09:25 PM
And you should give a crap why? If we are fools; let it be.

No one seems to be denying you your chance.

Because my life is directly affected by religion and its fanatics. The suffering it causes nations all over the world. It's nothing more than a tool of manipulation. When people die, its over. As great as it sounds that there is another level, its not possible. Life is too easy to create, not some miracle or whatever you'd like to call it. Its nature. There are millions of worlds out their that we know nothing of. I would have faith in life existing on another planet before I acknowledge there is some higher power.

Okie_Apparition
02-22-2011, 09:27 PM
100 posts
how you like them apples Skippy?

fan4ever
02-22-2011, 09:32 PM
Because my life is directly affected by religion and its fanatics. The suffering it causes nations all over the world. It's nothing more than a tool of manipulation. When people die, its over. As great as it sounds that there is another level, its not possible. Life is too easy to create, not some miracle or whatever you'd like to call it. Its nature. There are millions of worlds out their that we know nothing of. I would have faith in life existing on another planet before I acknowledge there is some higher power.

And my life is directly affected by Godless behavior void of morality...welcome to the club.