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pr_capone
02-22-2011, 05:26 PM
Because the bible says so?

Homosexuality is an illicit lust forbidden by God. He said to His people Israel, "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination" - (Leviticus 18:22)

"If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them" - (Leviticus 20:13)

If so, then why are so many men at Church, including most Pastors I have met or seen, clean shaven?

“Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard" - (Leviticus 19:27)

What about tattoos? Many a people I know that go to church and are Christian sport some ink.

“You shall not make any cuts in your body for the dead nor make any tattoo marks on yourselves: I am the Lord” - (Leviticus 19:28)

I want you to take a look through your closet. Have any blended fabrics?

“You shall not breed together two kinds of your cattle; you shall not sow your field with two kinds of seed, nor wear a garment upon you of two kinds of material mixed together” - (Leviticus 19:19)

-------

Is homosexuality a "worse" sin than wearing blended fabrics?

"For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all." - (James 2:10)

The reason I quoted all the scriptures I did is because they are within the same book spanned over 3 chapters. The argument that God means gays are horrible is literal... but the beard trimming bit is "figurative" is bunk.

When Christ was around, he left just two instructions. Love your neighbor as yourself. Love God with your whole mind, heart, soul. He didn't pause after the second command and say, "oh yeah, and pillowbiters are going to hell".

Convince me Christians. Convince me that homosexuality is wrong.

Oh yeah, and before someone points out that all the scriptures I quoted are from the old testament, and the new testament brought in new rules... there is some serious dumbassery in the New Testament as well.

"Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression" - (1 Tim. 2:11-14)

Just one of many.

pr_capone
02-22-2011, 05:27 PM
/not gay

LiveSteam
02-22-2011, 05:30 PM
The only gay I wanna see, is two hot girls getting it on.

pr_capone
02-22-2011, 05:31 PM
The only gay I wanna see, is two hot girls getting it on.

:thumb:

ClevelandBronco
02-22-2011, 05:31 PM
Can't help you. I don't have a problem with it.

Saul Good
02-22-2011, 05:32 PM
I don't know that its a sin. Frankly, it isn't something over which I lose sleep.

pr_capone
02-22-2011, 05:33 PM
This thread came about because of a conversation I had with an Uber Christian today. Just wondering where you lot fall in.

LiveSteam
02-22-2011, 05:36 PM
I dnt care what they do behind closed doors. until???
They want to raise children. Im sure they would be great parents & all.
But can you imagine the HELL a child would go through at school from the other kids.
It would be constant non stop. & the way i see it? The gay parents that want to raise kids are selfish & want to fill their needs as a parent & are not looking at it through the eyes of a child.

Saul Good
02-22-2011, 05:37 PM
This thread came about because of a conversation I had with an Uber Christian today. Just wondering where you lot fall in.

Perhaps the notion that conservatives/Christians are a bunch of f@g-hating bigots is simply a lie perpetuated by those with an axe to grind so that they can exploit the negative ideas of a few in order to further their own agenda.

ClevelandBronco
02-22-2011, 05:37 PM
Oh yeah, and before someone points out that all the scriptures I quoted are from the old testament, and the new testament brought in new rules... there is some serious dumbassery in the New Testament as well.

"Let the woman...

Paul is a tough nut to crack. I'm afraid that I've caused some commotion in Bible study classes over some of what he had to say.

ClevelandBronco
02-22-2011, 05:40 PM
I dnt care what they do behinds closed doors. until???
They want to raise children. Im sure they would be great parents & all.
But can you imagine the HELL a child would go through at school from the other kids.
It would be constant non stop. & the way i see it? The gay parents that want to raise kids are selfish & want to fill their needs as a parent & are not looking at it through the eyes of a child.

I'd be surprised if that would be much of an problem if it were any at all.

Useful Idiot
02-22-2011, 05:42 PM
I dnt care what they do behinds closed doors. until???
They want to raise children. Im sure they would be great parents & all.
But can you imagine the HELL a child would go through at school from the other kids.
It would be constant non stop. & the way i see it? The gay parents that want to raise kids are selfish & want to fill their needs as a parent & are not looking at it through the eyes of a child.

<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="640" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/FSQQK2Vuf9Q" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

LiveSteam
02-22-2011, 05:46 PM
I'd be surprised if that would be much of an problem if it were any at all.

YOU cant be serious. If a male kid. in any school district in America had 2 gay dads. He would be the laughing stock of the school. kid might get away with it in grade school. But junior high & high school. No way he could ever live it down. As much as some of you would like to think things have changed.They have NOT! Gay is taboo & always will be

Useful Idiot
02-22-2011, 05:46 PM
Perhaps the notion that conservatives/Christians are a bunch of f@g-hating bigots is simply a lie perpetuated by those with an axe to grind so that they can exploit the negative ideas of a few in order to further their own agenda.

I don't really give a shit about democrats or republicans. liberals or conservatives. but, the hatred and bigotry is really only coming from one sect.

ClevelandBronco
02-22-2011, 05:48 PM
YOU cant be serious.

I am.

Useful Idiot
02-22-2011, 05:51 PM
YOU cant be serious. If a male kid. in any school district in America had 2 gay dads. He would be the laughing stock of the school. kid might get away with it in grade school. But junior high & high school. No way he could ever live it down. As much as some of you would like to think things have changed.They have NOT! Gay is taboo & always will be

things have changed. sorry to disappoint, but most (sensible) people don't care anymore. gay bashing is a relic.

pr_capone
02-22-2011, 05:53 PM
As much as some of you would like to think things have changed.They have NOT! Gay is taboo & always will be

People thought the same way about black people once.

http://insignificantnobody.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/colored_entrance_only.jpg?w=468&h=235

pr_capone
02-22-2011, 05:55 PM
Perhaps the notion that conservatives/Christians are a bunch of f@g-hating bigots is simply a lie perpetuated by those with an axe to grind so that they can exploit the negative ideas of a few in order to further their own agenda.

I'm unsure if you meant me here but I have no axe to grind here and certainly have no agenda.

Donger
02-22-2011, 05:55 PM
Wrong? In what sense?

LiveSteam
02-22-2011, 05:59 PM
Maybe I am wrong. I am looking at it through the eyes of someone who graduated in 1987.
When I went to school ,NO WAY! You would have been picked on hard core
I think it would be easier on said child if both parents were female. just my opinion.

Okie_Apparition
02-22-2011, 06:01 PM
What age do you start to tell your son, "If you want to date boys when you grow, that would be cool with me." Six, seven?

LiveSteam
02-22-2011, 06:04 PM
What age do you start to tell your son, "If you want to date boys when you grow, that would be cool with me." Six, seven?

THIS RIGHT HEAR.
IMO its not fair to the child.

fan4ever
02-22-2011, 06:04 PM
My wife has been a teacher for 25 years...has a kid this year in second grade who's parents are gay males...and she's waiting for the sh*tstorm that's coming his way...hoping it doesn't happen but knows it will...kids will make fun of anyone for anything once they've got an angle...and even when they don't.

LiveSteam
02-22-2011, 06:04 PM
My wife has been a teacher for 25 years...has a kid this year in second grade who's parents are gay males...and she's waiting for the sh*tstorm that's coming his way...hoping it doesn't happen but knows it will...kids will make fun of anyone for anything once they've got an angle...and even when they don't.

Thank you :thumb:

|Zach|
02-22-2011, 06:07 PM
I dnt care what they do behind closed doors. until???
They want to raise children. Im sure they would be great parents & all.
But can you imagine the HELL a child would go through at school from the other kids.
It would be constant non stop. & the way i see it? The gay parents that want to raise kids are selfish & want to fill their needs as a parent & are not looking at it through the eyes of a child.

lol

Bewbies
02-22-2011, 06:09 PM
So is this a thread out to prove the bible false or what?

Donger
02-22-2011, 06:09 PM
Gay parents who adopt a child (or go through a surrogate) are cheating.

stevieray
02-22-2011, 06:10 PM
People thought the same way about black people once.

http://insignificantnobody.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/colored_entrance_only.jpg?w=468&h=235
ya, in the early 1900's when POS Democratic President Woodrow****ingWilson segregated the Military and Government workers...

B/W's have been side by side since the Revolution.

Bewbies
02-22-2011, 06:10 PM
Gay parents who adopt a child (or go through a surrogate) are cheating.

Then my wife and are are cheating too I guess.

Donger
02-22-2011, 06:10 PM
Then my wife and are are cheating too I guess.

Nope.

Wait, are you and your wife homosexuals?

LiveSteam
02-22-2011, 06:12 PM
Nope.

Wait, are you and your wife homosexuals?

I would take that as a YES

fan4ever
02-22-2011, 06:15 PM
Nope.

Wait, are you and your wife homosexuals?

Maybe they're both transgendered and neither of their plumbing works?

Useful Idiot
02-22-2011, 06:15 PM
B/W's have been side by side since the Revolution.

:shake:

pr_capone
02-22-2011, 06:16 PM
So is this a thread out to prove the bible false or what?

no, read the title of the thread. the topic of the discussion is right there.

Saul Good
02-22-2011, 06:16 PM
I don't really give a shit about democrats or republicans. liberals or conservatives. but, the hatred and bigotry is really only coming from one sect.

I don't see it coming from anywhere in this thread. Where would you say it's coming from?

teedubya
02-22-2011, 06:17 PM
Because the butthole is for pooping, duh. It's in the Bible.

Donger
02-22-2011, 06:17 PM
Maybe they're both transgendered and neither of their plumbing works?

There's a difference between having a medical issue which prevents procreation between two heterosexuals and whatever above is.

pr_capone
02-22-2011, 06:18 PM
ya, in the early 1900's when POS Democratic President Woodrow****ingWilson segregated the Military and Government workers...

B/W's have been side by side since the Revolution.

Erm... those signs were up until the 60's.

Claynus
02-22-2011, 06:19 PM
Basically the bible is bullshit. Welcome to 2011.

pr_capone
02-22-2011, 06:20 PM
Basically the bible is bullshit. Welcome to 2011.

Not on topic Wendler.

stevieray
02-22-2011, 06:20 PM
Erm... those signs were up until the 60's.

you're missing the point.

Useful Idiot
02-22-2011, 06:22 PM
I don't see it coming from anywhere in this thread. Where would you say it's coming from?

true, not in this thread, but who is fighting against gay rights and equal opportunity in this country? conservative christians. a lot of them are not exactly polite about it either.

pr_capone
02-22-2011, 06:25 PM
you're missing the point.

then by all means show me the way because I don't see how the 1900's are relevant to my reply to LiveSteam about how he feels that Gay is taboo and always will be.

hell, in the early 80's, interracial marriages still raised an eyebrow. 30 years later, the thought that people of mixed races shouldn't marry because of skin color is foreign to most.

Saul Good
02-22-2011, 06:25 PM
My wife has been a teacher for 25 years...has a kid this year in second grade who's parents are gay males...and she's waiting for the sh*tstorm that's coming his way...hoping it doesn't happen but knows it will...kids will make fun of anyone for anything once they've got an angle...and even when they don't.

This is true, but I don't know which side your facts support more. Which is the moral of your story?

A) Gays shouldn't be parents because kids are cruel and will pick on that child for having same-sex parents.

B) Kids will get made fun of for something regardless of their lots in life, so they might as well have loving parents.

I really don't know the answer to that. I used to be firmly in camp A, but I'm leaning towards camp B. Kids can be incredibly cruel. They can also be incredibly indifferent.

My son just turned 4, and his two best friends are biracial. One is black and white, the other is black and Hispanic. He sometimes refers to black people as "that brown boy" or "that brown woman". I don't really know how to react, so I just respond as if it's perfectly acceptable terminology. I figure that the longer he's of the mindset that some people are brown and some people are pink and some people are tall and some people are short, and that's all there is to it, the better.

Saul Good
02-22-2011, 06:26 PM
true, not in this thread, but who is fighting against gay rights and equal opportunity in this country? conservative christians. a lot of them are not exactly polite about it either.

The most obvious example would be Fred Phelps, the Democrat from Kansas.

Fruit Ninja
02-22-2011, 06:27 PM
i have Christian beliefs and if people are happy with it, then do what you feel is best for you. I dont judge. I wont think any different of a person.

Saul Good
02-22-2011, 06:27 PM
hell, in the early 80's, interracial marriages still raised an eyebrow. 30 years later, the thought that people of mixed races shouldn't marry because of skin color is foreign to most.

That is a gross exaggeration of the truth. It is far from a foreign concept to just about anyone.

CoMoChief
02-22-2011, 06:30 PM
I'd be surprised if that would be much of an problem if it were any at all.

ROFL really?

mlyonsd
02-22-2011, 06:30 PM
Congrats pr.....this thread has all the makings of greatness. :toast:

pr_capone
02-22-2011, 06:34 PM
That is a gross exaggeration of the truth. It is far from a foreign concept to just about anyone.

I'm sorry, I disagree. In my experience, my peers (Gen X'ers) don't have that same taboo that the Boomers did when it came to interracial marriage. It just is not as big a deal to us as it was to them.

Perhaps it is because we were not around when racism was rampant and people could be kept out of shops because of their skin color. Likely... we just grew up in a more tolerant climate than perhaps you did (don't know your age).

go bowe
02-22-2011, 06:34 PM
hell, in the early 80's, interracial marriages still raised an eyebrow. 30 years later, the thought that people of mixed races shouldn't marry because of skin color is foreign to most.yep...

speaking from personal experience...

chiefforlife
02-22-2011, 06:36 PM
Almost all hate, comes from religion.

Saul Good
02-22-2011, 06:36 PM
I'm sorry, I disagree. In my experience, my peers (Gen X'ers) don't have that same taboo that the Boomers did when it came to interracial marriage. It just is not as big a deal to us as it was to them.

Perhaps it is because we were not around when racism was rampant and people could be kept out of shops because of their skin color. Likely... we just grew up in a more tolerant climate and perhaps you did (don't know your age).

I'm 32. Unless you're 12, we didn't exactly grow up in different generations. People may not have a problem with interracial marriages, but the idea that some people do have a problem with it isn't a foreign concept to anyone.

Saul Good
02-22-2011, 06:37 PM
Almost all hate, comes from religion.

Almost all commas, come from poor punctuation.

stevieray
02-22-2011, 06:37 PM
then by all means show me the way because I don't see how the 1900's are relevant to my reply to LiveSteam about how he feels that Gay is taboo and always will be.

hell, in the early 80's, interracial marriages still raised an eyebrow. 30 years later, the thought that people of mixed races shouldn't marry because of skin color is foreign to most.

Wilson segregated us. There is a ton of early American History about famous and important blacks that have been swept under the rug...it's pathetic.

....google Charles L Reason.

Saul Good
02-22-2011, 06:38 PM
Almost all hate, comes from religion.

Except for a few secularists/atheists like Pol Pot, Mao, Stalin, Hitler, Lenin...

go bowe
02-22-2011, 06:38 PM
I'm sorry, I disagree. In my experience, my peers (Gen X'ers) don't have that same taboo that the Boomers did when it came to interracial marriage. It just is not as big a deal to us as it was to them.

Perhaps it is because we were not around when racism was rampant and people could be kept out of shops because of their skin color. Likely... we just grew up in a more tolerant climate than perhaps you did (don't know your age).again, i think you're right...

i'm 62 and i have seen both attitudes up close...

there are the exceptions, but i think most people under 50 or so are pretty tolerant...

i can't say the same for us old farts...

chiefforlife
02-22-2011, 06:39 PM
Almost all commas, come from poor punctuation.

Christian, Huh?

LiveSteam
02-22-2011, 06:39 PM
/not gay

If its not taboo?
Then why is this post #2?
Just say-en

Saul Good
02-22-2011, 06:39 PM
Is the wife still getting s**t for marrying a mongoloid? :p

Was it the handle "Saul" that gave away my Northeast Asian ethnicity?

go bowe
02-22-2011, 06:40 PM
I'm 32. Unless you're 12, we didn't exactly grow up in different generations. People may not have a problem with interracial marriages, but the idea that some people do have a problem with it isn't a foreign concept to anyone.ok, when you put it that way, i'd have to agree with you too...

Saul Good
02-22-2011, 06:40 PM
Christian, Huh?

Educated, At a public school, huh?

Fruit Ninja
02-22-2011, 06:40 PM
Almost all hate, comes from religion.

its because people are really close minded. ITs why i refused to join a church. I looked into it a while back. One thing i noticed is they want you to believe in the bible the same way you do. If you interpret a passage in the bible, its only to be interpreted their way, not the way i see it. If you argue against it, oh boy. lol

I have a bible, i can read it myself. I can read into it how i want to, now how they want me too. Like they say, to much of ANYTHING is bad.

chiefforlife
02-22-2011, 06:41 PM
Educated, At a public school, huh?

Yes.

Rausch
02-22-2011, 06:42 PM
How you become a parent isn't as important as how much of a parent you become.

pr_capone
02-22-2011, 06:43 PM
I'm 32. Unless you're 12, we didn't exactly grow up in different generations. People may not have a problem with interracial marriages, but the idea that some people do have a problem with it isn't a foreign concept to anyone.

No, I'm a bit younger than you but not by much.

Yes, I realize that there are people that still have a problem with it. For the large majority of Gen X'ers, marriage is color blind. Perhaps I misspoke when I used the term "foreign concept".

What I meant by that is that most people don't have a problem with interracial marriage. Some may disagree, others may disapprove, but there is not this vile hatred like there used to be.

There was a time where marriage between a black man and a white woman would in no way shape or form be tolerated. That is no longer the case.

ClevelandBronco
02-22-2011, 06:46 PM
ROFL really?

It could be possible that you hang around with people who are more bigoted than I would expect.

Saul Good
02-22-2011, 06:47 PM
No, I'm a bit younger than you but not by much.

Yes, I realize that there are people that still have a problem with it. For the large majority of Gen X'ers, marriage is color blind. Perhaps I misspoke when I used the term "foreign concept".

What I meant by that is that most people don't have a problem with interracial marriage. Some may disagree, others may disapprove, but there is not this vile hatred like there used to be.

There was a time where marriage between a black man and a white woman would in no way shape or form be tolerated. That is no longer the case.

I agree.

LiveSteam
02-22-2011, 06:48 PM
It could be possible that you hang around with people who are more bigoted than I would expect.

Kids dont know what BIGOTED even means. & at ages of 8 on up a lot of them wouldn't care if they were acting like a bigot.

ClevelandBronco
02-22-2011, 06:51 PM
Kids dont know what BIBOTED even means.

Neither do I.

pr_capone
02-22-2011, 06:51 PM
Kids dont know what BIBOTED even means. & at ages of 8 on up a lot wouldn't care anyways

No but they learn to emulate the behavior of their parents, family, and the people around them. They don't need to know, or even understand, what the word bigoted means. They simply emulate... bigotry, hatred, and intolerance towards a specific group is a learned behavior, not something people are just born with.

chiefforlife
02-22-2011, 06:52 PM
I dont believe its a choice. If you dont believe its a choice than how can you say its wrong?
I see it as, thats the way God made you (if there is a god) so how could he be angry with you?

I am guessing most Christians must believe its a choice?

Saul Good
02-22-2011, 06:53 PM
Neither do I.

I think it has something to do with that kid with the feathered hair who sings songs that go, "baby baby baby, you're my baby baby baby".

ClevelandBronco
02-22-2011, 06:54 PM
Kids dont know what BIGOTED even means. & at ages of 8 on up a lot of them wouldn't care if they were acting like a bigot.

Good edit.

I guess it's also possible that I hang around better parents than you do.

BigCatDaddy
02-22-2011, 06:55 PM
I dont believe its a choice. If you dont believe its a choice than how can you say its wrong?
I see it as, thats the way God made you (if there is a god) so how could he be angry with you?

I am guessing most Christians must believe its a choice?

I guess you could make that same arguement for Pedophilia, yes?

chiefforlife
02-22-2011, 06:58 PM
I guess you could make that same arguement for Pedophilia, yes?

I wouldnt put the two in the same category. I suppose you could also use that argument though.

Saul Good
02-22-2011, 06:58 PM
I dont believe its a choice. If you dont believe its a choice than how can you say its wrong?
I see it as, thats the way God made you (if there is a god) so how could he be angry with you?

I am guessing most Christians must believe its a choice?

Do people choose to be pedophiles? Perhaps people are imperfect creatures who must better themselves by overcoming their instincts which may tell them to do wrong.

I'm not comparing homosexuality to pedophilia in a moral sense, but your reasoning is as atrocious as your spelling, your grammar, your punctuation, and your syntax.

LiveSteam
02-22-2011, 06:59 PM
Good edit.

I guess it's also possible that I hang around better parents than you do.

Dnt be a fucking dick & bring my parents into it.
Edit/ If that is what you are trying to say?

chiefforlife
02-22-2011, 07:04 PM
Do people choose to be pedophiles? Perhaps people are imperfect creatures who must better themselves by overcoming their instincts which may tell them to do wrong.

I'm not comparing homosexuality to pedophilia in a moral sense, but your reasoning is as atrocious as your spelling, your grammar, your punctuation, and your syntax.

This happens to be a very sensitive issue right now in my family. I am sorting through it as we speak. It has divided our family into two sides.

I didnt realize we were having an English class also. Your tolerance of others is noted.

pr_capone
02-22-2011, 07:04 PM
This happens to be a very sensitive issue right now in my family. I am sorting through it as we speak. It has divided our family into two sides.

Pedo or Gay?

Saul Good
02-22-2011, 07:05 PM
Dnt be a fucking dick & bring my parents into it.
Edit/ If that is what you are trying to say?

That reminds me. Tell your mom congratulations on her new job, btw.

ClevelandBronco
02-22-2011, 07:05 PM
Dnt be a ****ing dick & bring my parents into it.
Edit/ If that is what you are trying to say?

It's kind of my raison d'Ítre.

Saul Good
02-22-2011, 07:05 PM
Pedo or Gay?

yes

chiefforlife
02-22-2011, 07:07 PM
yes

I thought so, congratulations on your coming out.

Saul Good
02-22-2011, 07:09 PM
This happens to be a very sensitive issue right now in my family. I am sorting through it as we speak. It has divided our family into two sides.

I didnt realize we were having an English class also. Your tolerance of others is noted.

Is it intolerant to suggest that someone should try to string together a coherent sentence or two while maligning all people of faith?

Saul Good
02-22-2011, 07:10 PM
I thought so, congratulations on your coming out.

Thanks

pr_capone
02-22-2011, 07:12 PM
I thought so, congratulations on your coming out.

Actually, the question was originally posed to you. You mentioned that the family was dealing with something similar and the topics had converged comparing homosexuality to pedophilia.

You failed to mention which of the two your fam is dealing with.

A hardy go fuck yourself works too. :D Not trying to be nosey.

BigMeatballDave
02-22-2011, 07:13 PM
LMAO

chiefforlife
02-22-2011, 07:14 PM
Is it intolerant to suggest that someone should try to string together a coherent sentence or two while maligning all people of faith?

What was so difficult for you to read? I will try an explain it better.

I didnt mean to malign all people of faith. I will apologize to those who were offended. It just so happens that the people in my family that have the hardest time accepting this member of our family, happen to be the deepest into religion.

Saul Good
02-22-2011, 07:15 PM
Actually, the question was originally posed to you. You mentioned that the family was dealing with something similar and the topics had converged comparing homosexuality to pedophilia.

You failed to mention which of the two your fam is dealing with.

A hardy go fuck yourself works too. :D Not trying to be nosey.

Sounds like he might tell you to go fuck yourself...while standing over a biscuit while he does the same.

Saul Good
02-22-2011, 07:18 PM
What was so difficult for you to read? I will try an explain it better.

I didnt mean to malign all people of faith. I will apologize to those who were offended. It just so happens that the people in my family that have the hardest time accepting this member of our family, happen to be the deepest into religion.

Then they are bigots who use religion as an excuse to be bigots just as some pedophiles use the priesthood as a way to get close to young boys. Their short-comings are their own, and they would harbor the same feelings of intolerance even if they weren't religious.

chiefforlife
02-22-2011, 07:25 PM
Then they are bigots who use religion as an excuse to be bigots just as some pedophiles use the priesthood as a way to get close to young boys. Their short-comings are their own, and they would harbor the same feelings of intolerance even if they weren't religious.

They arent normally bigots but when it comes to homosexuality, they feel its OK. Thats what makes it more difficult to understand. If they were bigots it would be easier. They just dont like people who are different.
My mom has threatened to disown my younger sister because she recently "came out". My sister went to Christian school her whole life, everyone she knows is Christian. It is very hard on her right now because everyone around her now feels differently toward her and not in a good way.
I am not nearly as strong in my faith as I used to be but I have no problem with it. She is still my sister and I love her as much as ever.

Saul Good
02-22-2011, 07:30 PM
They arent normally bigots but when it comes to homosexuality, they feel its OK. Thats what makes it more difficult to understand. If they were bigots it would be easier. They just dont like people who are different.
My mom has threatened to disown my younger sister because she recently "came out". My sister went to Christian school her whole life, everyone she knows is Christian. It is very hard on her right now because everyone around her now feels differently toward her and not in a good way.
I am not nearly as strong in my faith as I used to be but I have no problem with it. She is still my sister and I love her as much as ever.

There's no easy answer to a situation like this. If they can point to a passage in the Bible where Jesus disowns or shuns someone for being gay, then they are acting like Christians. Otherwise, they are just being bad parents.

I would probably ask them if they feel that their actions are more in keeping with "what would Jesus do" or with "what would Fred Phelps do".

chiefforlife
02-22-2011, 07:38 PM
There's no easy answer to a situation like this. If they can point to a passage in the Bible where Jesus disowns or shuns someone for being gay, then they are acting like Christians. Otherwise, they are just being bad parents.

I would probably ask them if they feel that their actions are more in keeping with "what would Jesus do" or with "what would Fred Phelps do".

I was hoping that this thread would point me to that passage, if there is one. As far as I know, Jesus preaches forgiveness. We are not to be judgmental.

I think it may be somewhat of a test for my Mom. Its easy to hate when it isnt your own child. She has already backed up a bit.
My step father is a bigot, I see where he is coming from. Still its his daughter. He is very disappointed, I dont know why.

Saul Good
02-22-2011, 07:45 PM
At some point, you just have to disassociate yourself from bad people, even if they happen to be your parents. I'm lucky in that I don't have this issue, but I know enough people who do to know that it's the truth.

chiefforlife
02-22-2011, 07:54 PM
At some point, you just have to disassociate yourself from bad people, even if they happen to be your parents. I'm lucky in that I don't have this issue, but I know enough people who do to know that it's the truth.

Yeah, fortunately for me, Im 43 and they dont have any influence in my life. My sister is 23 and she still depends on them quite a bit. Its a bad situation for her and I fell bad for her.
Sorry, Im not usually so serious. I need to go "misuse some sex" with my wife. Hehe.

luv
02-22-2011, 07:55 PM
Actually, it was love God first, and then love others.

Anyway, IMO, homosexuality is a sin in that adultery or fornication (sex before marriage) is a sin. No sin is greater than another. Sin is sin. People put emphasis on there being different levels of sin, not God.

chiefforlife
02-22-2011, 08:00 PM
Actually, it was love God first, and then love others.

Anyway, IMO, homosexuality is a sin in that adultery or fornication (sex before marriage) is a sin. No sin is greater than another. Sin is sin. People put emphasis on there being different levels of sin, not God.

She loves God first, always has. Her whole life has been about Christianity. She is currently in a Christian college. Imagine how hard this is for her? It goes against everything she believes, but she cant change it.

Pioli Zombie
02-22-2011, 08:02 PM
Gay. Gay. Gay. Gay. I don't know what's worse. Christians who obsess on this or non-Christians who obsess about Christians who obsess about this.

luv
02-22-2011, 08:06 PM
She loves God first, always has. Her whole life has been about Christianity. She is currently in a Christian college. Imagine how hard this is for her? It goes against everything she believes, but she cant change it.

My post was to the OP in general, but I went back and read your posts. I think your step dad is of the thinking that it is a choice. That is an entirely different debate, though. I think it's great that you're there for her.

pr_capone
02-22-2011, 08:06 PM
Actually, it was love God first, and then love others.

Anyway, IMO, homosexuality is a sin in that adultery or fornication (sex before marriage) is a sin. No sin is greater than another. Sin is sin. People put emphasis on there being different levels of sin, not God.

What if they marry in a state where it is legal for them to do so. Is it still wrong since they are no longer fornicating?

IMO, the order of the commandments really doesn't matter as long as I have them both covered. Love God, love others. Love others, love God.

luv
02-22-2011, 08:09 PM
What if they marry in a state where it is legal for them to do so. Is it still wrong since they are no longer fornicating?

IMO, no. I think one's views on it depend on their view of whether it's natural or a choice.

The thing that gets me is all of the people, especially females, who claim to be bi whenever they think it's a cool thing to be (to gain guys' interest). They give true homosexuals a bad rap.

luv
02-22-2011, 08:11 PM
IMO, the order of the commandments really doesn't matter as long as I have them both covered. Love God, love others. Love others, love God.

Yeah, sorry. I was just being Miss Technical. :D

Pioli Zombie
02-22-2011, 08:15 PM
In San Francisco how do you seperate the men from the boys?
A crowbar.

luv
02-22-2011, 08:15 PM
Again, what I'm saying here is just my opinion.

I don't really think it should matter to others what someone else does. We shouldn't judge. Also, if it is wrong, they are the ones who will have to answer for it.

Dallas Chief
02-22-2011, 08:21 PM
Fact- it is a deviant behavior from a biological standpoint. This is true from both a creation and an evolutionary point of view.

From a religious (Christian) standpoint it is considered a sin- just as are many other behaviors, such as sitting in judgment of others.

I personally believe that it is a chosen lifestyle/behavior. That being said, when I am free from sin in my own life, maybe I can sit in judgment of others. Until then though I say live and let live.

KurtCobain
02-22-2011, 08:21 PM
YOU cant be serious. If a male kid. in any school district in America had 2 gay dads. He would be the laughing stock of the school. kid might get away with it in grade school. But junior high & high school. No way he could ever live it down. As much as some of you would like to think things have changed.They have NOT! Gay is taboo & always will be

I was the kids with gay parents. My mom. Fucked with all the time. I tried to say I had a stepdad at my new school once(third grade) and she wanted to faucking chaperone, and then my friends wondered why my step dad had boobs.

Hated it.

chiefforlife
02-22-2011, 08:26 PM
I was the kids with gay parents. My mom. Fucked with all the time. I tried to say I had a stepdad at my new school once(third grade) and she wanted to faucking chaperone, and then my friends wondered why my step dad had boobs.

Hated it.

Its not easy for anyone. Doesnt that prove its not a choice?

alnorth
02-22-2011, 08:27 PM
My guess: the main reason it is wrong is because the church needed everyone to have children (back when they were making this book up out of thin air) to keep a steady supply of congregants. Thats difficult if some people in your flock are messing around with the wrong sex. If that is not it, then I'll fall back to my standard explanation for why some people don't like gays: "it's icky".

Useful Idiot
02-22-2011, 08:28 PM
Fact- it is a deviant behavior from a biological standpoint. This is true from both a creation and an evolutionary point of view.


that is not a fact.

Dallas Chief
02-22-2011, 08:29 PM
She loves God first, always has. Her whole life has been about Christianity. She is currently in a Christian college. Imagine how hard this is for her? It goes against everything she believes, but she cant change it.

More importantly- God loves her too...

chiefforlife
02-22-2011, 08:32 PM
More importantly- God loves her too...

I believe that but my Mom doesnt. It scares her to death. Seriously.

Saul Good
02-22-2011, 08:36 PM
that is not a fact.

Of course it is. It deviates from the norm. That's not a judgment, but it's a fact.

go bowe
02-22-2011, 08:40 PM
IMO, no. I think one's views on it depend on their view of whether it's natural or a choice.

The thing that gets me is all of the people, especially females, who claim to be bi whenever they think it's a cool thing to be (to gain guys' interest). They give true homosexuals a bad rap.claim to be bi?

where can i meet these girls?

Dallas Chief
02-22-2011, 08:41 PM
that is not a fact.
Yes it is. The act of homosexual intercourse (biologically deviant) serves no biological purpose. It does not result in reproduction of the species, whereas heterosexual intercourse(biological norm) does. A species that does not reproduce can in no way evolve or pro"create".

Now, how is that not fact?

Pitt Gorilla
02-22-2011, 08:41 PM
How you become a parent isn't as important as how much of a parent you become.This.

stevieray
02-22-2011, 08:45 PM
IMO, the order of the commandments really doesn't matter as long as I have them both covered. Love God, love others. Love others, love God.

au contraire

if you truly love God, you will love others. God says that those who say they love him, but hate their brother are in darkness, and not in the light.

....you can truly love others, but not God.

Claynus
02-22-2011, 08:48 PM
Homosexuality is wrong because our society hasn't fully accepted it. It has little to do with religion nowadays, IMO.

In about 50 years it'll probably be fully accepted and society won't plunge into darkness...and we'll move on to the next societal hangup.

Useful Idiot
02-22-2011, 08:51 PM
Of course it is. It deviates from the norm. That's not a judgment, but it's a fact.

but homosexuality IS biologically normal.

Okie_Apparition
02-22-2011, 08:53 PM
I worked with a butch lesbian who would reach down to her crotch and adjust herself. That just irrated the living hell out of me. I guess I have a way to go.

chiefforlife
02-22-2011, 08:55 PM
I worked with a butch lesbian who would reach down to her crotch and adjust herself. That just irrated the living hell out of me. I guess I have a way to go.

Sounds like it irritated her more than you...

Saul Good
02-22-2011, 08:55 PM
but homosexuality IS biologically normal.

Something existing naturally does not equal normal. Siamese twins exist, but they aren't the norm.

KurtCobain
02-22-2011, 08:57 PM
Gay people should not be parents. It's so fucking wrong.

pr_capone
02-22-2011, 08:58 PM
au contraire

if you truly love God, you will love others. God says that those who say they love him, but hate their brother are in darkness, and not in the light.

....you can truly love others, but not God.

For the purposes of the conversation that we are having, No... it makes ZERO difference in what order I list them. Had the topic of this thread been which one of the two was stated first, then yes it would make a difference. Context my friend. All about context.

Okie_Apparition
02-22-2011, 08:58 PM
Sounds like it irritated her more than you...

It must have been something in her farts because she was grabbing air.

patteeu
02-22-2011, 08:59 PM
I don't really give a shit about democrats or republicans. liberals or conservatives. but, the hatred and bigotry is really only coming from one sect.

Unions?

Chieficus
02-22-2011, 09:07 PM
Convince me Christians. Convince me that homosexuality is wrong.

Won't be able to convince you of things that you don't want to be convinced of, but... as a Christian I will give you an answer as to why I believe homosexuality is a sin.

Because the bible says so?

In essence, yes.

As a Christian, I believe God is the deciding moral force in the universe. By his nature he defines right from wrong, and the way he has told is a combination of conscious and Scripture, with the latter taking superiority over the former.

You make the mention of Old and New in a bit of a mocking way, but in reality this does play a part. In the New Testament, especially the teachings of Jesus, the writings of Paul in places like Galatians, and the book of Hebrews, we are clearly taught that the things of the Old Testament find their fulfillment in Jesus, the only one who has perfectly kept the Law. As Christians we are not under the bondage of the Law, because the Law was a teacher pointing out the massive imperfection and sinfulness of mankind that could be met only in Jesus. Thus instead of the old, we are under a new law--the law of Christ. With this, many ceremonial aspects of the Judeo-Christian religion has changed, but the underlying moral thread remains the same.

(As a side note, your comment about 1 Timothy 2 is really for another discussion...but context always remains our friend!)

The "new law" is to love God and love others, but to love God is to obey Jesus. And Jesus upped the ante a bit--to commit adultery is no longer merely an act between two unmarried persons, but is also about the lust one has in their heart...the only proper place for such strong desire is in marriage, and Jesus defines marriage in Matthew 19 by dipping back into Genesis 1&2--that God created them, male and female, in his image...therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be united to his wife and the two will become one flesh.

With these two thing, Jesus both defines marriage and defines any sexuality outside of the bounds of such marriage as sin. It doesn't matter if it's male with female, male with male, or whatever... if it doesn't fit the definition of Jesus, then it's not in obedience to Jesus, and it is sin.

Someone else asked the question as to whether it is a choice and if it's not then how can it be a sin?

The Genesis 3 curse of the fall tells us sin affects everything--and that would include our genetics and our brain chemistry as well as our soul. We are all born with genetic predisposition to sin in various ways. Some are alcoholics. Drunkenness is a sin. Some have anger issues. Beating your wife is a sin. Many feel the urge to sleep around with a whole lot of other members of the opposite sex. Heterosexual sleeping around is a sin. And it's not that homosexuality is a greater sin...in fact according to Romans 1, disobeying parents and gossiping are on the same playing field as it...but it still remains an offense to God whether by nature or by choice.

Any I sympathize with those who have to deal with it, and I do in a way that many Christians and non-Christians don't. Frankly, when it comes to sexual desire--I am bi-sexual. I am equally attracted to both male and female, and actually if the porn addiction from my high school and college years informs anything, the same-sex attraction is probably stronger. And I'm one of these guys who came from a stable home and was never abused in anyway...and I sure as heck did not choose to be attracted to other guys. But it's there, and best I can tell I was "born this way."

I guess some might say that since in my desires I swing both ways, the attraction to the ladies might give me a way out...but the attraction to guys doesn't just switch off. Yet, as a Christian, I look at the Bible, I believe what it says, and I want to honor Jesus so I choose not to embrace those natural desires.

And you know what--there are times it is a massive struggle, there are times it makes me depressed, and there are times I just want to throw up my hands and say, "Screw it, I'm just going to go do what I feel like doing." But I don't...I deal, because how I feel and think--my nature--doesn't change who God is and what he says is right and wrong.

So there you go... and maybe this means that some people think I'm a bigot, narrow-minded, just flat out unintelligent for believing such fairytale nonsense or whatever. But none of that matters...what does matter is that because of his great love for me, God, who is rich in mercy, made me alive with Jesus even when I was dead in my sin--for it is by grace I have been saved (my paraphrase of Ephesians 2:4-5).

donkhater
02-22-2011, 09:10 PM
We are all imperfect beings. Most of us tend to rationalize our sins as, "everyone does it" or "it's not my choice to feel this way" or " I don't act on my impulses so it's not a sin".

Hate the sin but love the sinner. Sometimes that's hard to do, but when you realize that we are all imperfect, forgiveness and understanding comes a little easier. For my part, I believe homosexuality is a sin, but I try not to be judgmental until someone who says it's no one's business who they sleep with then uses their sexuality as their identifying feature. I've never understood why it is necessary for gays to come out and announce their sexual preferences. Seems selfish and narcissistic.

Claynus
02-22-2011, 09:11 PM
God wants you to be happy above all.

Start taking it in the butt.

Useful Idiot
02-22-2011, 09:12 PM
Yes it is. The act of homosexual intercourse (biologically deviant) serves no biological purpose. It does not result in reproduction of the species, whereas heterosexual intercourse(biological norm) does. A species that does not reproduce can in no way evolve or pro"create".

Now, how is that not fact?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/blog/2009/jun/17/same-sex-relationships-gay-animals

http://www.danaanpress.com/alib/hs.pdf

luv
02-22-2011, 09:13 PM
God wants you to be happy above all.

Start taking it in the butt.

Just because that's what makes you happy doesn't mean that's what makes everyone else happy.

Useful Idiot
02-22-2011, 09:13 PM
Something existing naturally does not equal normal. Siamese twins exist, but they aren't the norm.

siamese twins are a genetic mutation. homosexuality is not.

luv
02-22-2011, 09:16 PM
http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/blog/2009/jun/17/same-sex-relationships-gay-animals

http://www.danaanpress.com/alib/hs.pdf

So, how about animals that don't lay eggs to reproduce?

Claynus
02-22-2011, 09:19 PM
Just because that's what makes you happy doesn't mean that's what makes everyone else happy.

Life is about personal happiness, and sexuality is inherently personal, and has nothing to do with ANYONE ELSE.

patteeu
02-22-2011, 09:19 PM
They arent normally bigots but when it comes to homosexuality, they feel its OK. Thats what makes it more difficult to understand. If they were bigots it would be easier. They just dont like people who are different.
My mom has threatened to disown my younger sister because she recently "came out". My sister went to Christian school her whole life, everyone she knows is Christian. It is very hard on her right now because everyone around her now feels differently toward her and not in a good way.
I am not nearly as strong in my faith as I used to be but I have no problem with it. She is still my sister and I love her as much as ever.

You'd think that after the disappointment of a son who votes for Obama, they'd be able to handle a minor issue like a daughter who likes girls. Wait a minute. Have you come out of the voting closet with your parents yet? :p

patteeu
02-22-2011, 09:30 PM
Won't be able to convince you of things that you don't want to be convinced of, but... as a Christian I will give you an answer as to why I believe homosexuality is a sin.



In essence, yes.

As a Christian, I believe God is the deciding moral force in the universe. By his nature he defines right from wrong, and the way he has told is a combination of conscious and Scripture, with the latter taking superiority over the former.

You make the mention of Old and New in a bit of a mocking way, but in reality this does play a part. In the New Testament, especially the teachings of Jesus, the writings of Paul in places like Galatians, and the book of Hebrews, we are clearly taught that the things of the Old Testament find their fulfillment in Jesus, the only one who has perfectly kept the Law. As Christians we are not under the bondage of the Law, because the Law was a teacher pointing out the massive imperfection and sinfulness of mankind that could be met only in Jesus. Thus instead of the old, we are under a new law--the law of Christ. With this, many ceremonial aspects of the Judeo-Christian religion has changed, but the underlying moral thread remains the same.

(As a side note, your comment about 1 Timothy 2 is really for another discussion...but context always remains our friend!)

The "new law" is to love God and love others, but to love God is to obey Jesus. And Jesus upped the ante a bit--to commit adultery is no longer merely an act between two unmarried persons, but is also about the lust one has in their heart...the only proper place for such strong desire is in marriage, and Jesus defines marriage in Matthew 19 by dipping back into Genesis 1&2--that God created them, male and female, in his image...therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be united to his wife and the two will become one flesh.

With these two thing, Jesus both defines marriage and defines any sexuality outside of the bounds of such marriage as sin. It doesn't matter if it's male with female, male with male, or whatever... if it doesn't fit the definition of Jesus, then it's not in obedience to Jesus, and it is sin.

Someone else asked the question as to whether it is a choice and if it's not then how can it be a sin?

The Genesis 3 curse of the fall tells us sin affects everything--and that would include our genetics and our brain chemistry as well as our soul. We are all born with genetic predisposition to sin in various ways. Some are alcoholics. Drunkenness is a sin. Some have anger issues. Beating your wife is a sin. Many feel the urge to sleep around with a whole lot of other members of the opposite sex. Heterosexual sleeping around is a sin. And it's not that homosexuality is a greater sin...in fact according to Romans 1, disobeying parents and gossiping are on the same playing field as it...but it still remains an offense to God whether by nature or by choice.

Any I sympathize with those who have to deal with it, and I do in a way that many Christians and non-Christians don't. Frankly, when it comes to sexual desire--I am bi-sexual. I am equally attracted to both male and female, and actually if the porn addiction from my high school and college years informs anything, the same-sex attraction is probably stronger. And I'm one of these guys who came from a stable home and was never abused in anyway...and I sure as heck did not choose to be attracted to other guys. But it's there, and best I can tell I was "born this way."

I guess some might say that since in my desires I swing both ways, the attraction to the ladies might give me a way out...but the attraction to guys doesn't just switch off. Yet, as a Christian, I look at the Bible, I believe what it says, and I want to honor Jesus so I choose not to embrace those natural desires.

And you know what--there are times it is a massive struggle, there are times it makes me depressed, and there are times I just want to throw up my hands and say, "Screw it, I'm just going to go do what I feel like doing." But I don't...I deal, because how I feel and think--my nature--doesn't change who God is and what he says is right and wrong.

So there you go... and maybe this means that some people think I'm a bigot, narrow-minded, just flat out unintelligent for believing such fairytale nonsense or whatever. But none of that matters...what does matter is that because of his great love for me, God, who is rich in mercy, made me alive with Jesus even when I was dead in my sin--for it is by grace I have been saved (my paraphrase of Ephesians 2:4-5).

Wow, outstanding post. I'm not a believer so I don't share your belief that homosexuality is a sin, but that was a great explanation of why a believer would hold that position. And the kicker of the description of your own sexuality and your choice to live according to your beliefs puts this post over the top.

fan4ever
02-22-2011, 09:30 PM
I dont believe its a choice. If you dont believe its a choice than how can you say its wrong?
I see it as, thats the way God made you (if there is a god) so how could he be angry with you?

Because God made you, he should be OK with any kind of behavior you exhibit?

Missed that memo.

patteeu
02-22-2011, 09:31 PM
siamese twins are a genetic mutation. homosexuality is not.

How do you know that?

healthpellets
02-22-2011, 09:36 PM
What age do you start to tell your son, "If you want to date boys when you grow, that would be cool with me." Six, seven?

At what point did your parents tell you that?

Stoopid.

Homosexual and heterosexual children display signs much earlier in childhood of their orientation than most would believe.

And most parents assume their children to be heterosexual, so why would any parent make the statement you made earlier?

Chieficus
02-22-2011, 09:45 PM
Wow, outstanding post. I'm not a believer so I don't share your belief that homosexuality is a sin, but that was a great explanation of why a believer would hold that position. And the kicker of the description of your own sexuality and your choice to live according to your beliefs puts this post over the top.

Thanks...

...the sexuality thing is not something many, but a select few friends, know about in my non-anonymous life outside of an internet message board. But I'm becoming more open about it... it's just a slow process for me...

...because: I love church, and I love it dearly; but even though the Bible says we're to confess our sins to each other (James 5) and carry each other's burdens (Galatians 6), the fact of the matter is the conservative church in america has a long way to go.

We're comfortable dealing with the common and sadly "acceptable" sins... we have no problem sitting in a pew next to the gossip and the greedy, in fact we hardly even view those things as sin anymore. But put a person there who is openly dealing with their sexuality or pornography or drug use, the tendency is for the pew to clear out and the person to not feel welcome.

It's sad and it's something we need to repent of.

But I don't run from my "religion" because of how people are, I embrace it because of who I believe Jesus is and what he has done, in grace becoming my sin, my temptations, and my failings and giving to me his perfection and righteousness.

Anyway... I have work in the morning, and I need sleep, so I'm going to bed.

fan4ever
02-22-2011, 09:46 PM
If homosexuality is genetic, why do so many men in prison, formerly heteosexual, exhibit homosexual behavior? Are they the only men influenced by their environment? Personally I believe some are born that way, but many, if not a majority, aren't IMO. They've had events or people in their lives that altered their sexual course. As far as the Biblical viewpoint, yes, I think it's a sin, but a sin they have to answer to God for, not me...but I'm not going to stand up and clap my hands for their way of life.

Okie_Apparition
02-22-2011, 10:01 PM
At what point did your parents tell you that?

Stoopid.

Homosexual and heterosexual children display signs much earlier in childhood of their orientation than most would believe.

And most parents assume their children to be heterosexual, so why would any parent make the statement you made earlier?

ROFL

chiefforlife
02-22-2011, 10:10 PM
You'd think that after the disappointment of a son who votes for Obama, they'd be able to handle a minor issue like a daughter who likes girls. Wait a minute. Have you come out of the voting closet with your parents yet? :p
Now thats funny.LOL

But it gets worse...

We are all Conservative Republicans and I somehow convinced them all to vote for Obama. :doh!:

Still, given the same choice, I would vote for Obama.

Conservatives, give me someone to vote for...please.

chiefforlife
02-22-2011, 10:14 PM
Wow, outstanding post. I'm not a believer so I don't share your belief that homosexuality is a sin, but that was a great explanation of why a believer would hold that position. And the kicker of the description of your own sexuality and your choice to live according to your beliefs puts this post over the top.

I agree, great post. Took guts to put that out there, Thank You.

chiefforlife
02-22-2011, 10:15 PM
Because God made you, he should be OK with any kind of behavior you exhibit?

Missed that memo.

I already admitted, that wasnt a very good argument.

Useful Idiot
02-22-2011, 10:29 PM
Thanks...

...the sexuality thing is not something many, but a select few friends, know about in my non-anonymous life outside of an internet message board. But I'm becoming more open about it... it's just a slow process for me...

...because: I love church, and I love it dearly; but even though the Bible says we're to confess our sins to each other (James 5) and carry each other's burdens (Galatians 6), the fact of the matter is the conservative church in america has a long way to go.

We're comfortable dealing with the common and sadly "acceptable" sins... we have no problem sitting in a pew next to the gossip and the greedy, in fact we hardly even view those things as sin anymore. But put a person there who is openly dealing with their sexuality or pornography or drug use, the tendency is for the pew to clear out and the person to not feel welcome.

It's sad and it's something we need to repent of.

But I don't run from my "religion" because of how people are, I embrace it because of who I believe Jesus is and what he has done, in grace becoming my sin, my temptations, and my failings and giving to me his perfection and righteousness.

Anyway... I have work in the morning, and I need sleep, so I'm going to bed.

your post made me think of this....

<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/s30ZKjNfRlU" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

I wish you all the best in your journey.

ClevelandBronco
02-22-2011, 10:41 PM
Won't be able to convince you of things that you don't want to be convinced of, but... as a Christian I will give you an answer as to why I believe homosexuality is a sin.



In essence, yes.

As a Christian, I believe God is the deciding moral force in the universe. By his nature he defines right from wrong, and the way he has told is a combination of conscious and Scripture, with the latter taking superiority over the former.

You make the mention of Old and New in a bit of a mocking way, but in reality this does play a part. In the New Testament, especially the teachings of Jesus, the writings of Paul in places like Galatians, and the book of Hebrews, we are clearly taught that the things of the Old Testament find their fulfillment in Jesus, the only one who has perfectly kept the Law. As Christians we are not under the bondage of the Law, because the Law was a teacher pointing out the massive imperfection and sinfulness of mankind that could be met only in Jesus. Thus instead of the old, we are under a new law--the law of Christ. With this, many ceremonial aspects of the Judeo-Christian religion has changed, but the underlying moral thread remains the same.

(As a side note, your comment about 1 Timothy 2 is really for another discussion...but context always remains our friend!)

The "new law" is to love God and love others, but to love God is to obey Jesus. And Jesus upped the ante a bit--to commit adultery is no longer merely an act between two unmarried persons, but is also about the lust one has in their heart...the only proper place for such strong desire is in marriage, and Jesus defines marriage in Matthew 19 by dipping back into Genesis 1&2--that God created them, male and female, in his image...therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be united to his wife and the two will become one flesh.

With these two thing, Jesus both defines marriage and defines any sexuality outside of the bounds of such marriage as sin. It doesn't matter if it's male with female, male with male, or whatever... if it doesn't fit the definition of Jesus, then it's not in obedience to Jesus, and it is sin.

Someone else asked the question as to whether it is a choice and if it's not then how can it be a sin?

The Genesis 3 curse of the fall tells us sin affects everything--and that would include our genetics and our brain chemistry as well as our soul. We are all born with genetic predisposition to sin in various ways. Some are alcoholics. Drunkenness is a sin. Some have anger issues. Beating your wife is a sin. Many feel the urge to sleep around with a whole lot of other members of the opposite sex. Heterosexual sleeping around is a sin. And it's not that homosexuality is a greater sin...in fact according to Romans 1, disobeying parents and gossiping are on the same playing field as it...but it still remains an offense to God whether by nature or by choice.

Any I sympathize with those who have to deal with it, and I do in a way that many Christians and non-Christians don't. Frankly, when it comes to sexual desire--I am bi-sexual. I am equally attracted to both male and female, and actually if the porn addiction from my high school and college years informs anything, the same-sex attraction is probably stronger. And I'm one of these guys who came from a stable home and was never abused in anyway...and I sure as heck did not choose to be attracted to other guys. But it's there, and best I can tell I was "born this way."

I guess some might say that since in my desires I swing both ways, the attraction to the ladies might give me a way out...but the attraction to guys doesn't just switch off. Yet, as a Christian, I look at the Bible, I believe what it says, and I want to honor Jesus so I choose not to embrace those natural desires.

And you know what--there are times it is a massive struggle, there are times it makes me depressed, and there are times I just want to throw up my hands and say, "Screw it, I'm just going to go do what I feel like doing." But I don't...I deal, because how I feel and think--my nature--doesn't change who God is and what he says is right and wrong.

So there you go... and maybe this means that some people think I'm a bigot, narrow-minded, just flat out unintelligent for believing such fairytale nonsense or whatever. But none of that matters...what does matter is that because of his great love for me, God, who is rich in mercy, made me alive with Jesus even when I was dead in my sin--for it is by grace I have been saved (my paraphrase of Ephesians 2:4-5).

Thanks for giving us that post. Great stuff.

patteeu
02-22-2011, 11:45 PM
Now thats funny.LOL

But it gets worse...

We are all Conservative Republicans and I somehow convinced them all to vote for Obama. :doh!:

Still, given the same choice, I would vote for Obama.

Conservatives, give me someone to vote for...please.

Well, there's your answer then. God is punishing all of you for your votes. :eek:

Seriously, good luck to you, your sister, and your family. I hope that after the initial shock, your parents (at least) and her other relatives and friends (hopefully) find a way to accept her as she is.

ClevelandBronco
02-23-2011, 12:47 AM
She loves God first, always has. Her whole life has been about Christianity. She is currently in a Christian college. Imagine how hard this is for her? It goes against everything she believes, but she cant change it.

I hope that she believes as unshakably as I do that her creator and the Lord of her life loves her deeply, perfectly, and exactly as he created her.

Pioli Zombie
02-23-2011, 04:13 AM
Homosexuality is a sin buts its no more of a sin than the sin everybody else sitting in church has, including me, who wants to jump every good looking woman in church. I'm tired of self righteous Christianity. Only Jesus is without sin, that's why He's our savior.

Saul Good
02-23-2011, 06:16 AM
Thanks...

...the sexuality thing is not something many, but a select few friends, know about in my non-anonymous life outside of an internet message board. But I'm becoming more open about it... it's just a slow process for me...

...because: I love church, and I love it dearly; but even though the Bible says we're to confess our sins to each other (James 5) and carry each other's burdens (Galatians 6), the fact of the matter is the conservative church in america has a long way to go.

We're comfortable dealing with the common and sadly "acceptable" sins... we have no problem sitting in a pew next to the gossip and the greedy, in fact we hardly even view those things as sin anymore. But put a person there who is openly dealing with their sexuality or pornography or drug use, the tendency is for the pew to clear out and the person to not feel welcome.

It's sad and it's something we need to repent of.

But I don't run from my "religion" because of how people are, I embrace it because of who I believe Jesus is and what he has done, in grace becoming my sin, my temptations, and my failings and giving to me his perfection and righteousness.

Anyway... I have work in the morning, and I need sleep, so I'm going to bed.

The church is made up of people, and people are far from perfect; really, really far. The church will always have a long way to go because people will always have a long way to go. Such is our struggle. Good luck with yours. As an evil, bigoted conservative, I hope you find peace and happiness whichever path you feel compelled to follow.

Okie_Apparition
02-23-2011, 07:53 AM
Homosexuality is a sin buts its no more of a sin than the sin everybody else sitting in church has, including me, who wants to jump every good looking woman in church. I'm tired of self righteous Christianity. Only Jesus is without sin, that's why He's our savior.

Without sin but not frustration. Remember the withering fig tree.

fan4ever
02-23-2011, 08:44 AM
I already admitted, that wasnt a very good argument.

Missed it; sorry...not piling on.

stevieray
02-23-2011, 06:41 PM
who wants to jump every good looking woman in church. I'm tired of self righteous Christianity.

irony.... like every good looking chick in your church would even do you, regardless of you getting your ass kicked.


I say you bust the move, and see what happens.

Omaha
02-24-2011, 10:28 AM
YOU cant be serious. If a male kid. in any school district in America had 2 gay dads. He would be the laughing stock of the school. kid might get away with it in grade school. But junior high & high school. No way he could ever live it down. As much as some of you would like to think things have changed.They have NOT! Gay is taboo & always will be

I'm with CB on this. I'm sure there will be some kids who will make jokes,but kids will always find reasons to pick on each other. If not gay parents, it would be something else. I just don't think it would be a huge deal.

Omaha
02-24-2011, 10:35 AM
My wife has been a teacher for 25 years...has a kid this year in second grade who's parents are gay males...and she's waiting for the sh*tstorm that's coming his way...hoping it doesn't happen but knows it will...kids will make fun of anyone for anything once they've got an angle...and even when they don't.

Thank you :thumb:

No bigger deal than anything else.

blaise
02-24-2011, 10:36 AM
things have changed. sorry to disappoint, but most (sensible) people don't care anymore. gay bashing is a relic.

I think a kid would most likely still be ridiculed in a high school if he had two dads.

vailpass
02-24-2011, 10:38 AM
Why is homosexuality between males wrong? Just look at it. Eew.
Why is homosexuality between females wrong? It isn't, just look at it.

KurtCobain
02-24-2011, 10:38 AM
I think a kid would most likely still be ridiculed in a high school if he had two dads.

It's even worse in elementary and middle school before kids 'get it'.

vailpass
02-24-2011, 10:42 AM
It's even worse in elementary and middle school before kids 'get it'.

You don't think it would happen in high school? Oh man it would be nasty.

Chiefspants
02-24-2011, 11:00 AM
YOU cant be serious. If a male kid. in any school district in America had 2 gay dads. He would be the laughing stock of the school. kid might get away with it in grade school. But junior high & high school. No way he could ever live it down. As much as some of you would like to think things have changed.They have NOT! Gay is taboo & always will be

I do not know how long ago you graduated, but, I believe that you may be holding a few misconceptions about that prejudice. I am a senior in high school and I know two males who have two same sex parents and nobody gives them any grief for it whatsoever. In today's world, when 50% of all marriages are ending in divorce, I believe that today's generation of students have grown accustomed to being raised and nurtured within a diverse environment.

vailpass
02-24-2011, 11:04 AM
I do not know how long ago you graduated, but, I believe that you may be holding a few misconceptions about that prejudice. I am a senior in high school and I know two males who have two same sex parents and nobody gives them any grief for it whatsoever. In today's world, when 50% of all marriages are ending in divorce, I believe that today's generation of students have grown accustomed to being raised and nurtured in diverse environment.

Not sure I'm comfortable with a minor on this site. We need to start carding.
Shouldn't this kid be in class right about now?

loochy
02-24-2011, 11:08 AM
Pedo or Gay?

Probably a gay pedo.

fan4ever
02-24-2011, 11:09 AM
No bigger deal than anything else.

You don't think having your parents be the target of ridicule versus being made fun of for how you dress or a zit on the end of your nose would cut a deeper wound? I say you're really, really wrong on that.

Brock
02-24-2011, 11:10 AM
Nobody cares except people who are stuck in the past.

Chiefspants
02-24-2011, 11:11 AM
Not sure I'm comfortable with a minor on this site. We need to start carding.
Shouldn't this kid be in class right about now?

Lol, I'm in Ag business at the present time, (I enrolled in FFA classes as a freshman when I had misguided dreams of becoming a veterinarian, I love animals, but, I simply do not have the mathematical ability to realize that ambition.) Anyways, I have some down time because I finished a scholarship application a few days ahead of schedule.

As for my age, I actually turned eighteen a few months ago, but, I've had an account since I was around fourteen years old.

fan4ever
02-24-2011, 11:12 AM
I do not know how long ago you graduated, but, I believe that you may be holding a few misconceptions about that prejudice. I am a senior in high school and I know two males who have two same sex parents and nobody gives them any grief for it whatsoever. In today's world, when 50% of all marriages are ending in divorce, I believe that today's generation of students have grown accustomed to being raised and nurtured in diverse environment.

That's a good point but I think by the time kids are in high school they're a lot more PC...not so in grade school...

ClevelandBronco
02-24-2011, 11:14 AM
As for my age, I actually turned eighteen a few months ago, but, I've had an account since I was around fourteen years old.

Oh, shit. Sorry for the language four years ago.

vailpass
02-24-2011, 11:14 AM
Lol, I'm in Ag business at the present time, (I enrolled in FFA classes as a freshman when I had misguided dreams of becoming a veterinarian, I love animals, but, I simply do not have the mathematical ability to realize that ambition.) Anyways, I have some down time because I finished a scholarship application a few days ahead of schedule.

As for my age, I actually turned eighteen a few months ago, but, I've had an account since I was around fourteen years old.

Good luck on your scholarship application.

Omaha
02-24-2011, 11:19 AM
You don't think having your parents be the target of ridicule versus being made fun of for how you dress or a zit on the end of your nose would cut a deeper wound? I say you're really, really wrong on that.

I think kids would get razzed about a zit or how they're dressed way more than who their parents are. Chiefspants just addressed it in his post.

Chiefspants
02-24-2011, 11:38 AM
Good luck on your scholarship application.

Thank you! I have filled out so many of those applications this year that now I can essentially copy and paste that information into every application that crosses my path.

patteeu
02-24-2011, 11:44 AM
Thank you! I have filled out so many of those applications this year that now I can essentially copy and paste that information into every application that crosses my path.

I've got a daughter in high school and she'll be doing this soon. How do you find the scholarships you've been applying for?

Chiefspants
02-24-2011, 11:58 AM
I've got a daughter in high school and she'll be doing this soon. How do you find the scholarships you've been applying for?

I have filled out a few scholarships directly through this website here-> http://www.fastweb.com/

After making an account, (It's the same process one would use to make an account on here.) Fastweb takes your basic information, (Age, Gender, Race, Etc.) And provides you with the opportunity to apply for every available scholarship in its database.

Ford and Cargill also offer fantastic scholarships to high school students, I was actually just finished applying on both of their databases for the scholarships they offer directly to FFA students.

Also, has she narrowed down the colleges that she's interested in attending? If so, she should look through their websites for scholarships available exclusively through the University.

That's all of the advice I can think to offer at this present time, oh, I would also advise her to fill out her FAFSA ASAP, if she has had a job in high school, she will need all of her financial information from her place of employment.

I hope this helps!

Chiefspants.