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healthpellets
02-23-2011, 02:36 PM
http://dailycaller.com/2011/02/23/walker-should-fire-striking-wisconsin-teachers/

Walker should fire striking Wisconsin teachers

By Wayne Allyn Root 12:59 PM 02/23/2011

In 1981, when the air traffic controllers went on strike, Ronald Reagan fired them all. Can you imagine? Air traffic controllers — unique individuals with rare and valuable skills, thought irreplaceable, fired en masse. And we never noticed. Supervisors filled their shoes for months while new ones were trained. Not a single accident. What happened to those air traffic controllers who lost today’s equivalent of $100,000-per-year jobs? Few ever found jobs with that kind of pay again.

It’s time for a Reagan moment in Wisconsin. The average Milwaukee teacher at retirement age makes about $100,000 per year. Yes, I said $100,000. Milwaukee’s teachers are the best paid teachers in the Midwest. That’s not being reported on the nightly news, is it? What good is all that bloated compensation doing? Milwaukee has a depressing 68% graduation rate and two-thirds of Wisconsin eighth graders read below grade level.

Government employee unions, teachers’ unions in particular, have to be the only business (or should I say “racket”) that asks for raises for horrible performance. The worse they do, the more they ask for. It’s always “the money.” The teachers’ unions never mention that private and Catholic school teachers make far less, with far superior results.

What drove GM and Chrysler into bankruptcy was not the bloated salaries for blue collar union workers. It was the gold-plated pensions and free lifetime healthcare that killed the automakers. Wisconsin (and every other state in the USA) faces the same problem with its public employee unions.

Today, a Wisconsin teacher reported retiring at age 55, after working part-time for five short years. She gets “only” about $250 per month for life from the taxpayers of Wisconsin. If this teacher lives to be 78, her pension will amount to over $65,000. With cost-of-living increases, it will probably go to $75,000 — more than twice as much as her entire five-year working salary, which was $35,000. But what if she lives to 100? Her pension could end up being triple or quadruple her working pay.

Now, think about all the full-time teachers in Wisconsin making $100,000 a year (or more) who have not paid a penny toward their retirement but will get handed multimillion-dollar pensions for 25 to 40 years of not working.

It gets worse. Wisconsin taxpayers also pay all teachers’ post-retirement health care costs and pay for new teachers to replace them. Ever wonder why America is broke, busted and insolvent? That’s why.

While these government employees are getting gold-plated pensions and free lifetime healthcare, the taxpayers who are paying their bills are struggling to survive.

Why should taxpayers work their fingers to the bone until the day they die to support teachers’ and other public employees’ bloated wages and pensions? It’s the taxpayers who should be going on strike!

It’s time for Governor Walker and other governors across America to invoke Ronald Reagan. The message is simple: “Accept these modest cuts and end abusive collective bargaining by public employees or “YOU’RE FIRED.” And be sure to charge the teachers who have fake doctor notes with fraud.

Good luck finding any job in the private sector paying $100,000 (or even $50,000) to work 8 to 3 with weekends, holidays, sick days and two months off in the summer, then retire young with a bloated pension and healthcare for life.

It’s time to stop being polite and politically correct. Rome is burning. Combined, the national debt and unfunded liabilities now total $100 trillion. The clock on America’s survival is ticking. It’s time to invoke Reagan.

Guess what? If air traffic controllers can be replaced, so can teachers, at far lower salaries and drastically reduced pensions. Look at the test scores. It can’t get worse. I bet we can get the same results for 30% less. Heck, bringing in fresh blood with new, creative ideas might improve the results. How can we find out if we don’t give it a try?

Oh, did I mention my daughter, Dakota, was home-schooled and is now a freshman at Harvard? Where’s my pension?

Where’s The Donald when we need him? Wisconsin teachers — “YOU’RE FIRED!”

That’s a good start. Next week, let’s have this same conversation with all the rest of our government employees.

Wayne Allyn Root is a former Libertarian Vice Presidential nominee. He now serves as Chairman of the Libertarian National Congressional Committee. He is the best-selling author of “The Conscience of a Libertarian: Empowering the Citizen Revolution with God, Guns, Gold & Tax Cuts.” His web site: www.ROOTforAmerica.com



Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2011/02/23/walker-should-fire-striking-wisconsin-teachers/#ixzz1Eov5R5JA

Jenson71
02-23-2011, 02:51 PM
Who would replace them?

Jenson71
02-23-2011, 02:55 PM
And it would be nice to get references on all these claims and numbers he throws out. "The average Milwaukee teacher at retirement age makes about $100,000 per year." That's extremely doubtful. I don't believe it until I see some public record stat that shows "813 teachers retired in 2009. Their salary at time of retirement, on average: $102,003."

fan4ever
02-23-2011, 03:13 PM
Who would replace them?

Home schooling...:doh!:

WV
02-23-2011, 03:23 PM
And it would be nice to get references on all these claims and numbers he throws out. "The average Milwaukee teacher at retirement age makes about $100,000 per year." That's extremely doubtful. I don't believe it until I see some public record stat that shows "813 teachers retired in 2009. Their salary at time of retirement, on average: $102,003."

I also like the comment about Catholic and Private schools getting better results.....pure BS.

Garcia Bronco
02-23-2011, 03:44 PM
I would suspend classes and various non-critcal operations for the month of March and maybe even April. We'll make these school days up over the summer. I am sure the kids will enjoy that. I would fire them all if they don't report to work by 3/1. I would deem them in violation of contract. Then I am going to interview and then I will rehire 4/1/11.

healthpellets
02-23-2011, 03:44 PM
I also like the comment about Catholic and Private schools getting better results.....pure BS.

you don't think that Private/Catholic schools have better measurables? I'd bet they do.

however, it's not a fair argument when we're comparing one system that must take every person that shows up, and one that can pick and choose its students.

WV
02-23-2011, 04:07 PM
you don't think that Private/Catholic schools have better measurables? I'd bet they do.

however, it's not a fair argument when we're comparing one system that must take every person that shows up, and one that can pick and choose its students.

No I don't think they have better measurables mostly because a lot don't really have "measurable" the way most perceive them. Most private schools aren't held up to the same standards that public schools are because they are private.

Here's an interesting article about it that sums up some reasons better than I can. Eventhough it focuses on Math, I beleive it's all around in most cases. I'm not doubting there are some great Private schools that out preform all schools, but I don't think that's the rule.

Public Schools Outperform Private Schools in Math Instruction
enlarge (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/02/090226093423.htm)

Education professors Sarah and Chris Lubienski have found that public-school students outperform their private-school classmates on standardized math tests, thanks to two key factors: certified math teachers, and a modern, reform-oriented math curriculum. (Credit: Photo by L. Brian Stauffer)ScienceDaily (Mar. 3, 2009) — In another “Freakonomics”-style study that turns conventional wisdom about public- versus private-school education on its head, a team of University of Illinois education professors has found that public-school students outperform their private-school classmates on standardized math tests, thanks to two key factors: certified math teachers, and a modern, reform-oriented math curriculum.

Sarah Lubienski, a professor of curriculum and instruction in the U. of I. College of Education, says teacher certification and reform-oriented teaching practices correlated positively with higher achievement on the National Assessment of Educational Progress (NAEP) exam for public-school students.

“According to our results, schools that hired more certified teachers and had a curriculum that de-emphasized learning by rote tended to do better on standardized math tests,” Lubienski said. “And public schools had more of both.”

To account for the difference in test scores, Lubienski and her co-authors, education professor Christopher Lubienski (her husband) and doctoral student Corinna Crane, looked at five critical factors: school size, class size, parental involvement, teacher certification and instructional practices.

In previous research, the Lubienskis discovered that after holding demographic factors constant, public school students performed just as well if not better than private schools students on standardized math tests.

“There are so many reasons why you would think that the results should be reversed – that private schools would outscore public schools in standardized math test scores,” she said. “This study looks at the underlying reasons why that’s not necessarily the case.”

Of the five factors, school size and parental involvement “didn’t seem to matter all that much,” Lubienski said, citing a weak correlation between the two factors as “mixed or marginally significant predictors” of student achievement.

They also discovered that smaller class sizes, which are more prevalent in private schools than in public schools, significantly correlate with achievement.

“Smaller class size correlated with higher achievement and occurred more frequently in private schools,” Lubienski said. “But that doesn’t help explain why private schools were being outscored by public schools.”

Lubienski said one reason private schools show poorly in this study could be their lack of accountability to a public body.

“There’s been this assumption that private schools are more effective because they’re autonomous and don’t have all the bureaucracy that public schools have,” Lubienski said. “But one thing this study suggests is that autonomy isn’t necessarily a good thing for schools.”

Another reason could be private schools’ anachronistic approach to math.

“Private schools are increasingly ignoring curricular trends in education, and it shows,” Lubienski said. “They’re not using up-to-date methods, and they’re not hiring teachers who employ up-to-date lesson plans in the classroom. When you do that, you aren’t really taking advantage of the expertise in math education that’s out there.”

Lubienski thinks one of the reasons that private schools don’t adopt a more reform-minded math curriculum is because some parents are more attracted to a “back-to-basics” approach to math instruction. The end result, however, is students who are “prepared for the tests of 40 years ago, and not the tests of today,” she said.

Tests like NAEP, Lubienski said, have realigned themselves with the National Council of Teachers of Mathematics standards for math instruction, which have moved away from the brute-force memorization of numbers to an emphasis on “geometry, measurement and algebra – things that private school teachers reported they spent less time teaching,” Lubienski said.

“The results do seem to suggest that private schools are doing their own thing, and that they’re less likely to have paid attention to curricular trends and the fact that math instruction and math tests have changed,” she said.

Lubienski cautioned that the relationships found between the two factors and public-school performance might not be directly causal.

“The correlations might be a result, for example, of having the type of administrator who makes teacher credentials and academics the priority over other things, such as religious education,” she said. “That's often not the case for private religious schools, where parents are obviously committed to things beside academic achievement.”

The schools with the smallest percentage of certified teachers – conservative Christian schools, where less than half of teachers were certified – were, not coincidentally, the schools with the lowest aggregate math test scores.

“Those schools certainly have the prerogative to set different priorities when hiring, but it just doesn’t help them on NAEP,” Lubienski said.

Lubienski also noted that public schools tend to set aside money for teacher development and periodic curriculum improvements.

“Private schools don’t invest as much in the professional development of their teachers and don’t do enough to keep their curriculum current,” she said. “That appears to be less of a priority for them, and they don’t have money designated for that kind of thing in the way public schools do.”

Lubienski hopes that politicians who favor more privatization would realize that the invisible hand of the market doesn’t necessarily apply to education.

“You can give schools greater autonomy, but that doesn’t mean they’re going to use that autonomy to implement an innovative curriculum or improve the academics of the students,” she said.

Instead, some private schools try to attract parents by offering a basic skills curriculum, or non-academic requirements, such as students wearing uniforms.

Privatization also assumes that parents can make judgments about what schools are the best for their children.

“With schools, it’s tough to see how much kids are actually learning,” Lubienski said. “Market theory in education rests on the assumption that parents can see what they’re buying, and that they’re able to make an informed decision about their child’s education. Although parents might be able to compare schools’ SAT scores, they aren’t able to determine whether those gains are actually larger in higher scoring schools unless they know where students start when they enter school. People don’t always pick the most effective schools.”

The results were published in a paper titled “Achievement Differences and School Type: The Role of School Climate, Teacher Certification, and Instruction” in the November 2008 issue of the American Journal of Education. The published findings were based on fourth- and eighth-grade test results from the 2003 NAEP test, including data from both student achievement and comprehensive background information drawn from a nationally representative sample of more than 270,000 students from more than 10,000 schools.

Garcia Bronco
02-23-2011, 04:13 PM
No I don't think they have better measurables mostly because a lot don't really have "measurable" the way most perceive them. Most private schools aren't held up to the same standards that public schools are because they are private.

Here's an interesting article about it that sums up some reasons better than I can. Eventhough it focuses on Math, I beleive it's all around in most cases. I'm not doubting there are some great Private schools that out preform all schools, but I don't think that's the rule.

When I was in public school I was told I would never be able to grasp the concepts of Algebra. I graduated college with a minor in math after 3 years of private school in Virginia. For the me, the proof is in the pudding. No statistical study could ever convince otherwise.

I got an A+ in differential equations. Fuck those public clowns.
:)

Earthling
02-23-2011, 04:18 PM
When I was in public school I was told I would never be able to grasp the concepts of Algebra. I graduated college with a minor in math after 3 years of private school in Virginia. For the me, the proof is in the pudding. No statistical study could ever convince otherwise.

I got an A+ in differential equations. **** those public clowns.
:)

Maybe they knew that was how to motivate you...? :p

mnchiefsguy
02-23-2011, 04:30 PM
Calling in sick and getting a fake doctor's note to excuse you is fraud, and the teachers who did it should be fired whatever happens.

Garcia Bronco
02-23-2011, 04:33 PM
Maybe they knew that was how to motivate you...? :p

It was a military school. :harumph:

In fact! The guy the Chiefs is named after went there. :P

So the namesake of the chiefs and a Bronco are brothers.:)

Jenson71
02-23-2011, 04:37 PM
Calling in sick and getting a fake doctor's note to excuse you is fraud, and the teachers who did it should be fired whatever happens.

Should the doctors be sued by the state?

Garcia Bronco
02-23-2011, 04:40 PM
Should the doctors be sued by the state?

sued? No. Have their lic under review and revoked based on those findings? Yes. Suing them would just cost money. Spend, spend, spend...that's all it ever is with you people.

mnchiefsguy
02-23-2011, 04:41 PM
sued? No. Have their lic under review and revoked based on those findings? Yes. Suing them would just cost money. Spend, spend, spend...that's all it ever is with you people.

Yes, the Doctor is committing fraud as well, as the Doctor is knowingly providing and invalid excuse...they should be responsible for their actions.

Saul Good
02-23-2011, 05:06 PM
Who would replace them?

We're at full employment, so there's really nobody available.

petegz28
02-23-2011, 05:06 PM
Calling in sick and getting a fake doctor's note to excuse you is fraud, and the teachers who did it should be fired whatever happens.

Have to wonder what said teachers would do if one of their students came to class with a fake doctor's note?

Jenson71
02-23-2011, 05:07 PM
Have to wonder what said teachers would do if one of their students came to class with a fake doctor's note?

The students don't give them to the teachers. They have an office for that.

petegz28
02-23-2011, 05:12 PM
The students don't give them to the teachers. They have an office for that.

Same difference in this case.

Jenson71
02-23-2011, 05:13 PM
Same difference in this case.

Have you ever taken a sick day and not been that sick?

petegz28
02-23-2011, 05:30 PM
Have you ever taken a sick day and not been that sick?

Your question is very vague in the context of the topic. Have I taken a sick day when I wasn't sick? Sure. Would my boss approve of that, tolerate it and encourage it? Fuck no!

Saul Good
02-23-2011, 05:31 PM
There's a good chance that they are committing a fairly serious crime by writing fake doctor notes.

Jenson71
02-23-2011, 05:34 PM
There's a good chance that they are committing a fairly serious crime by writing fake doctor notes.

Is it a criminal offense to write doctor notes for people you know aren't sick? It's not like they gave them a prescription.

Saul Good
02-23-2011, 05:35 PM
Is it a criminal offense to write doctor notes for people you know aren't sick? It's not like they gave them a prescription.

I would guess that it's fraud.

Jenson71
02-23-2011, 05:49 PM
I would guess that it's fraud.

Meh. It's not like the doctors gained anything by it.

Saul Good
02-23-2011, 05:53 PM
Meh. It's not like the doctors gained anything by it.

Sure they do.

BigRichard
02-23-2011, 06:00 PM
I would guess that it's fraud.

Define sick.

Saul Good
02-23-2011, 06:03 PM
Define sick.

According to these notes, unable to work.

googlegoogle
02-23-2011, 06:19 PM
And it would be nice to get references on all these claims and numbers he throws out. "The average Milwaukee teacher at retirement age makes about $100,000 per year." That's extremely doubtful. I don't believe it until I see some public record stat that shows "813 teachers retired in 2009. Their salary at time of retirement, on average: $102,003."

Home schooling...:doh!:

STFU :spock:

Teachers/volunteers without jobs that want to teach.

Dave Lane
02-23-2011, 06:29 PM
It was a military school. :harumph:

In fact! The guy the Chiefs is named after went there. :P

So the namesake of the chiefs and a Bronco are brothers.:)

I went to a military school for 2 years and I'd have gotten a A++ in diffyQ. What a bunch of retards there were there, teachers and students. I had a 4.0 Gpa and never opened a book. Then I went to a real school with real engineering calc and differential equations and holy **** was that a 100,000 times harder.

ClevelandBronco
02-23-2011, 06:33 PM
I went to a military school for 2 years and I'd have gotten a A++ in diffyQ. What a bunch of retards there were there, teachers and students. I had a 4.0 Gpa and never opened a book. Then I went to a real school with real engineering calc and differential equations and holy **** was that a 100,000 times harder.

100,000 times. Help out a guy who didn't get through calc. That's a lot isn't it?

You raise an interesting point. In some private schools there are students who don't give a shit — like you — who ought to get bounced out on their asses. Of course, that's a loss of revenue for the school, so they don't want to get rid of the attitude problems — like yours — unless it's absolutely necessary or unless they have a waiting list.

That wouldn't be as much of a problem with vouchers. There'd be waiting lists at most private schools, and they could afford to send undesirable kids — like you — packing.

HonestChieffan
02-23-2011, 06:39 PM
Author should check who hires and fires teachers. He may learn they don't report to the governor. The gov can't fire the teachers.

CrazyPhuD
02-23-2011, 06:43 PM
Meh. It's not like the doctors gained anything by it.

Doesn't matter they are still defrauding the goverment if they know the teacher isn't sick yet they write them a note anyway. Think of it this way, to run the schools they then must hire substitutes, those substitutes cost money. The government can and should go after the doctors to recover those funds and place them in jail.

Look if you want to strike fine then strike but a sick out is cowardly. If they do this often enough the government should say well clearly you are disabled so we will put you on disability and hire someone new.

banyon
02-23-2011, 07:00 PM
Sure they do.

What?

Saul Good
02-23-2011, 07:03 PM
What?

People protesting on behalf of their cause. Why do you think they are doing it?

banyon
02-23-2011, 07:36 PM
People protesting on behalf of their cause. Why do you think they are doing it?

No, I mean what do the doctors gain by writing the notes.


Also, it doesn't appear to qualify under the normal Wisconsin fraud statute, though there may be a more specific law related to medical professionals.

943.39*Fraudulent writings. Whoever, with intent to injure or defraud, does any of the following is guilty of a Class H felony:

943.39(1)******
(1) Being a director, officer, manager, agent or employee of any corporation or limited liability company falsifies any record, account or other document belonging to that corporation or limited liability company by alteration, false entry or omission, or makes, circulates or publishes any written statement regarding the corporation or limited liability company which he or she knows is false; or

943.39(2)******
(2) By means of deceit obtains a signature to a writing which is the subject of forgery under s. 943.38 (1); or

943.39(3)******
(3) Makes a false written statement with knowledge that it is false and with intent that it shall ultimately appear to have been signed under oath.*

Saul Good
02-23-2011, 07:40 PM
No, I mean what do the doctors gain by writing the notes.

The doctors gain by having people protest something that they oppose. Do you suppose that they have NO motivation for doing this?

dirk digler
02-23-2011, 07:57 PM
The doctors gain by having people protest something that they oppose. Do you suppose that they have NO motivation for doing this?

What would it be?

cdcox
02-23-2011, 08:04 PM
That worked out so well the last time.


http://westorlandonews.com/2011/02/22/gov-scott-walker-past-privatization-disasters-unmasked/

Saul Good
02-23-2011, 08:06 PM
What would it be?

How many times to I have to say it?

They want these people to protest. Therefore, by writing these fake diagnoses, they get what they want.

dirk digler
02-23-2011, 08:11 PM
How many times to I have to say it?

They want these people to protest. Therefore, by writing these fake diagnoses, they get what they want.

I guess you will to say it again. Why do they want the people to protest and what do they gain by it?

Saul Good
02-23-2011, 08:15 PM
I guess you will to say it again. Why do they want the people to protest and what do they gain by it?

Ask them. Why don't you normally see doctors walking down the streets handing out fraudulent notes? They aren't doing it for the hell of it. They have an agenda against Walker, and they are willing to lie and steal from the taxpayers in order to further it.

dirk digler
02-23-2011, 08:23 PM
Ask them. Why don't you normally see doctors walking down the streets handing out fraudulent notes? They aren't doing it for the hell of it. They have an agenda against Walker, and they are willing to lie and steal from the taxpayers in order to further it.

Oh I thought you knew.

petegz28
02-23-2011, 08:25 PM
I guess you will to say it again. Why do they want the people to protest and what do they gain by it?

So I guess these doctors have no problems handing out sick notes to kids who feel they don't want to go to school?

These teachers and doctors are setting a piss poor example to the students.

Saul Good
02-23-2011, 08:28 PM
Oh I thought you knew.

I don't know why they hold their political views, but I know that they do. Is the the twilight zone?

Saul Good
02-23-2011, 08:28 PM
So I guess these doctors have no problems handing out sick notes to kids who feel they don't want to go to school?

These teachers and doctors are setting a piss poor example to the students.

I'm not convinced that they are even doctors.

dirk digler
02-23-2011, 08:34 PM
I don't know why they hold their political views, but I know that they do. Is the the twilight zone?

You said they are gaining from writing these notes and protesting and I am asking what are they gaining? They aren't part of any government union that I know of so I fail to see how this bill effects them in any way.

But I maybe I am in the twilight zone and missing it

petegz28
02-23-2011, 08:36 PM
You said they are gaining from writing these notes and protesting and I am asking what are they gaining? They aren't part of any government union that I know of so I fail to see how this bill effects them in any way.

But I maybe in the twilight zone and missing it

Proxy protest? They don't like the governor? They have family or friends in the union?

dirk digler
02-23-2011, 08:38 PM
So I guess these doctors have no problems handing out sick notes to kids who feel they don't want to go to school?

These teachers and doctors are setting a piss poor example to the students.

Is standing up for what you believe in setting a piss poor example?

mlyonsd
02-23-2011, 08:45 PM
Is standing up for what you believe in setting a piss poor example?

Not when there are kids that will suffer because you're trying to avoid reality.

jettio
02-23-2011, 08:50 PM
I watched that 2008 Libertarian Convention on C-Span and that Wayne Allin Root who wrote the article in the OP proved himself to be a despicable c*cks*cker by throwing his support to Libertarian come lately Bob F*ckin' Barr in exchange for the VP nomination and he was caught on camera explaining his selfish rationale for that dick move that knocked the best true Libertarian candidate off the ticket.

If the Libertarian Party has any self-respect, this Wayne Allin Root will get no support if he tries to run in 2012.

That dude is not worth quoting on DC subforum IMO. He's a sleazeball.

HolyHandgernade
02-23-2011, 08:51 PM
In 1981, when the air traffic controllers went on strike, Ronald Reagan fired them all. Can you imagine? Air traffic controllers — unique individuals with rare and valuable skills, thought irreplaceable, fired en masse. And we never noticed. Supervisors filled their shoes for months while new ones were trained. Not a single accident. What happened to those air traffic controllers who lost today’s equivalent of $100,000-per-year jobs? Few ever found jobs with that kind of pay again.

Nice mythology.

In aniticipation of the PATCO strike the government had weeks of advanced planning of the strike deadline so that they could prep military controllers to supplement the possible strike. Traffic volume was reduced significantly and services were curtailed. Also, every one of the reasons for which the controllers originally struck were eventually instituted, only one of the reasons involved pay. Further, not all air traffic controllers earned the top level salary at that time, pay was dispersed according to the level of facility you worked in. Never let the full picture get in the way of a good story I guess.

banyon
02-23-2011, 09:53 PM
The doctors gain by having people protest something that they oppose. Do you suppose that they have NO motivation for doing this?

What is the evidence for that claim?

ClevelandBronco
02-23-2011, 10:08 PM
What is the evidence for that claim?

I have no evidence that they're getting paid for the office visits during which they write fraudulent notes, but I suspect they're billing for their time. Some evil insurance company will foot the bill anyway.

Do they call that insurance fraud or underwriting?

stevieray
02-24-2011, 07:12 AM
Is standing up for what you believe in setting a piss poor example?

more hypocrisy.

see, when eygpt protests, it's awesome.

...when state legislators leave the state, doctors lie, teachers are awol "it's standing up for what you believe in"..

yet when the tea party movement gathers peacefully....full assault.


this is exactly why states are broke, schools are broken, and families are broken.

...morally bankrupt and double standards abound.

Bwana
02-24-2011, 07:56 AM
These clowns need to get back in the classroom. These fake Dr notes are complete crap and they should be held accountable. Either get back to work, or hit the bricks. With this booming economy *SNICKER* I'm sure there are a lot of teachers out of work. It's not like the teachers are irreplaceable. Either get back to work, or start collecting some "free Obama money," via unemployment.

dirk digler
02-24-2011, 08:07 AM
more hypocrisy.

see, when eygpt protests, it's awesome.

...when state legislators leave the state, doctors lie, teachers are awol "it's standing up for what you believe in"..

yet when the tea party movement gathers peacefully....full assault.


this is exactly why states are broke, schools are broken, and families are broken.

...morally bankrupt and double standards abound.

There is no hypocrisy I never stated that I agreed that the teachers should have skipped class. I am of the opinion they should have went to work and help educate our kids and let others protest until the weekend.

Simplex3
02-24-2011, 08:47 AM
Meh. It's not like the doctors gained anything by it.

Try robbing a bank and giving all the money away.

Try killing some random stranger.

Try driving 150mph down the highway even though you aren't in a hurry.

I'll bet nobody will care that you didn't personally gain from your crime.

Jenson71
02-24-2011, 11:32 AM
Try robbing a bank and giving all the money away.

Try killing some random stranger.

Try driving 150mph down the highway even though you aren't in a hurry.

I'll bet nobody will care that you didn't personally gain from your crime.

But that's an element of common law fraud -- benefit. Otherwise, it could be a mere prank. That's not the case in robbery, murder, or moving violations.

Simplex3
02-24-2011, 11:52 AM
I don't know enough to know if it's fraud on the part of the doctors according to Wisconsin law, but I can't believe they weren't breaking some law, ethics code, or contractual obligation.

The teachers, on the other hand, used what they knew to be fraudulent documents to receive pay they otherwise wouldn't get and/or to cover up an unexcused absence from their employer.

My guess would be that nothing is going to come of it. A few school boards may posture up, the teacher's union will start flashing court documents, and it will all just go away. I do, however, think they will have their collective bargaining rights removed and I think Wisconsin will use that precedence to remove them from all the public sector unions. I think that's a good thing.

BucEyedPea
02-24-2011, 11:56 AM
I watched that 2008 Libertarian Convention on C-Span and that Wayne Allin Root who wrote the article in the OP proved himself to be a despicable c*cks*cker by throwing his support to Libertarian come lately Bob F*ckin' Barr in exchange for the VP nomination and he was caught on camera explaining his selfish rationale for that dick move that knocked the best true Libertarian candidate off the ticket.

If the Libertarian Party has any self-respect, this Wayne Allin Root will get no support if he tries to run in 2012.

That dude is not worth quoting on DC subforum IMO. He's a sleazeball.

Yes he is a sleazeball and a NeoCon to boot. Many libertarians criticized him, as well as Barr who was just using the Libertarian party but who is really a conservative—NTTAWWT. I don't think Barr was all that bad but Root :doh!: STFU

alpha_omega
02-24-2011, 11:58 AM
Who would replace them?

You! You are a smart guy...or at least you play one on the interweb.

Jenson71
02-24-2011, 11:59 AM
I don't know enough to know if it's fraud on the part of the doctors according to Wisconsin law, but I can't believe they weren't breaking some law, ethics code, or contractual obligation.

The teachers, on the other hand, used what they knew to be fraudulent documents to receive pay they otherwise wouldn't get and/or to cover up an unexcused absence from their employer.

My guess would be that nothing is going to come of it. A few school boards may posture up, the teacher's union will start flashing court documents, and it will all just go away. I do, however, think they will have their collective bargaining rights removed and I think Wisconsin will use that precedence to remove them from all the public sector unions. I think that's a good thing.

What abilities/rights/powers should a public teachers' union have? Any kind of "good faith" protection in negotiations? Any ability to negotiate at all?

Jenson71
02-24-2011, 12:00 PM
You! You are a smart guy...or at least you play one on the interweb.

I don't want to be a teacher in a state whose executive is hostile to my interests.

jettio
02-24-2011, 12:04 PM
Yes he is a sleazeball and a NeoCon to boot. Many libertarians criticized him, as well as Barr who was just using the Libertarian party but who is really a conservative—NTTAWWT. I don't think Barr was all that bad but Root :doh!: STFU

I always knew you would start seeing things, or at least one thing, my way.

ClevelandBronco
02-24-2011, 12:05 PM
I don't want to be a teacher in a state whose executive is hostile to my interests.

That's funny stuff.

Jenson71
02-24-2011, 12:07 PM
That's funny stuff.

Well? Isn't that what most prospective teachers would think?

petegz28
02-24-2011, 01:02 PM
Is standing up for what you believe in setting a piss poor example?

No, but how you go about it can be.

ClevelandBronco
02-24-2011, 01:20 PM
Well? Isn't that what most prospective teachers would think?

I guess we'll see if Wisconsin suddenly runs short of teachers.

patteeu
02-24-2011, 01:43 PM
Who would replace them?

Do you think they'd have trouble finding applicants in this employment environment? I also assume that fired teachers would be allowed to apply to be re-hired under new employment conditions (salary, benefits, etc.).

patteeu
02-24-2011, 01:48 PM
Is standing up for what you believe in setting a piss poor example?

You mean lying for what you believe in?

patteeu
02-24-2011, 01:49 PM
I watched that 2008 Libertarian Convention on C-Span and that Wayne Allin Root who wrote the article in the OP proved himself to be a despicable c*cks*cker by throwing his support to Libertarian come lately Bob F*ckin' Barr in exchange for the VP nomination and he was caught on camera explaining his selfish rationale for that dick move that knocked the best true Libertarian candidate off the ticket.

If the Libertarian Party has any self-respect, this Wayne Allin Root will get no support if he tries to run in 2012.

That dude is not worth quoting on DC subforum IMO. He's a sleazeball.

Jettio doesn't like the guy for unspecified reasons, therefore he's alright in my book.

Yes he is a sleazeball and a NeoCon to boot. Many libertarians criticized him, as well as Barr who was just using the Libertarian party but who is really a conservative—NTTAWWT. I don't think Barr was all that bad but Root :doh!: STFU

Confirmed. This guy is a winner.

patteeu
02-24-2011, 01:50 PM
Nice mythology.

In aniticipation of the PATCO strike the government had weeks of advanced planning of the strike deadline so that they could prep military controllers to supplement the possible strike. Traffic volume was reduced significantly and services were curtailed. Also, every one of the reasons for which the controllers originally struck were eventually instituted, only one of the reasons involved pay. Further, not all air traffic controllers earned the top level salary at that time, pay was dispersed according to the level of facility you worked in. Never let the full picture get in the way of a good story I guess.

We'll be coming for you and your union mates soon enough. Repent while there's still time. :p

patteeu
02-24-2011, 01:54 PM
What is the evidence for that claim?

People don't go out into the streets in the middle of a Wisconsin winter to write fraudulent (unethical, if not illegal) doctor's notes to enable people to abandon their jobs teaching in favor of self-interested political protesting unless they have a reason. It's so obvious we need a new name for it. Let's call it Saul Good's Razor instead of Occam's Razor.

dirk digler
02-24-2011, 02:02 PM
You mean lying for what you believe in?

Is that what you call it when you post? ;)

dirk digler
02-24-2011, 02:03 PM
People don't go out into the streets in the middle of a Wisconsin winter to write fraudulent (unethical, if not illegal) doctor's notes to enable people to abandon their jobs teaching in favor of self-interested political protesting unless they have a reason. It's so obvious we need a new name for it. Let's call it Saul Good's Razor instead of Occam's Razor.

We still haven't heard a reason..

Pitt Gorilla
02-24-2011, 02:05 PM
100,000 times. Help out a guy who didn't get through calc. That's a lot isn't it?

You raise an interesting point. In some private schools there are students who don't give a shit — like you — who ought to get bounced out on their asses. Of course, that's a loss of revenue for the school, so they don't want to get rid of the attitude problems — like yours — unless it's absolutely necessary or unless they have a waiting list.

That wouldn't be as much of a problem with vouchers. There'd be waiting lists at most private schools, and they could afford to send undesirable kids — like you — packing.If the vouchers are in any way supported by federal funds, they won't be able to send anyone packing. NCLB et al. have some pretty impressive strings attached to federal funding of any kind.

Simplex3
02-24-2011, 02:05 PM
What abilities/rights/powers should a public teachers' union have? Any kind of "good faith" protection in negotiations? Any ability to negotiate at all?

I don't think government employees at any level should have any kind of bargaining rights. I would bar government employee unions. It wasn't until the early 60's I think that federal employees could collectively bargain.

The problem is that the people on the hook for the contract (the taxpayers) aren't at the negotiating table. It's the union negotiating with the politician they helped elect (whose only real job is to be reelected).

Being a government employee used to be a trade off and should be again. You get a job that's largely insulated from economic downturns, but you give up total compensation in return.

patteeu
02-24-2011, 02:10 PM
We still haven't heard a reason..

No you did hear a reason you just didn't accept it. Saul said the reason was that they want to support the protest for their own political reasons. They want to enable more people to join the protests. It's the same reason people donate to political causes.

ClevelandBronco
02-24-2011, 02:17 PM
If the vouchers are in any way supported by federal funds, they won't be able to send anyone packing. NCLB et al. have some pretty impressive strings attached to federal funding of any kind.

Well, yeah, but in my dream the federal government provides no education funding at all, ever, under any circumstances.

Saul Good
02-24-2011, 02:37 PM
People don't go out into the streets in the middle of a Wisconsin winter to write fraudulent (unethical, if not illegal) doctor's notes to enable people to abandon their jobs teaching in favor of self-interested political protesting unless they have a reason. It's so obvious we need a new name for it. Let's call it Saul Good's Razor instead of Occam's Razor.

That has a nice ring to it. Now that I have my own razor, I no longer have to hear about my brother Cole who has long had his own law. Cole's Law, of course, being that thinly sliced cabbage and carrots mixed into mayonnaise goes well with BBQ.

Jenson71
02-24-2011, 03:39 PM
I don't think government employees at any level should have any kind of bargaining rights. I would bar government employee unions. It wasn't until the early 60's I think that federal employees could collectively bargain.

The problem is that the people on the hook for the contract (the taxpayers) aren't at the negotiating table. It's the union negotiating with the politician they helped elect (whose only real job is to be reelected).

Being a government employee used to be a trade off and should be again. You get a job that's largely insulated from economic downturns, but you give up total compensation in return.

The collective bargaining rights, as I understand them, allow for good faith negotiations between the teachers union and the school board. I think it's crazy to say that the teachers shouldn't have any right to put up a list of their desires that a board has to take seriously.

The people/taxpayers still remain at the negotiating table through their elected school board members! And there's no reason to pretend that the board members and union rep are laying in a meadow strumming a guitar. Things get very heated between the two.

The union serves as a legitimate representative of the teacher. There are a lot of cases where an administrator can effectively bully a teacher around without a union rep present.

You go to an extreme though. I can see arguing for individual bargaining as an alternative way for teacher representation. But you think that teachers should have no representation, no voice, except the passive yes or no of the demands inflicted upon them?

mnchiefsguy
02-24-2011, 03:50 PM
The collective bargaining rights, as I understand them, allow for good faith negotiations between the teachers union and the school board. I think it's crazy to say that the teachers shouldn't have any right to put up a list of their desires that a board has to take seriously.

The people/taxpayers still remain at the negotiating table through their elected school board members! And there's no reason to pretend that the board members and union rep are laying in a meadow strumming a guitar. Things get very heated between the two.

The union serves as a legitimate representative of the teacher. There are a lot of cases where an administrator can effectively bully a teacher around without a union rep present.

You go to an extreme though. I can see arguing for individual bargaining as an alternative way for teacher representation. But you think that teachers should have no representation, no voice, except the passive yes or no of the demands inflicted upon them?

I think teachers should have the same voice as any other employee in a job. Most employees do not have collective bargaining, and I do not think teachers, or any government workers for that matter, are so special that they require this additional privilege. The fact that these teachers put their union above their students (shown by walking out on their students and lying about being sick so they could protest), shows where their priority is.

Can you link to a single case where an administrator bullied a teacher? There are many, many, more instances of the union bullying a district into keeping an unqualified or unworthy teacher in employment then there are of administrators bullying teachers. Once a teacher has tenure, the union makes sure they are unfireable, to the detriment of students. Education has on a downhill slope for a long time now, and teachers, along with their union, need to step up and take some of the responsibility, as opposed to lying about being sick so they can protest to get better benefits.

Simplex3
02-24-2011, 03:58 PM
The collective bargaining rights, as I understand them, allow for good faith negotiations between the teachers union and the school board. I think it's crazy to say that the teachers shouldn't have any right to put up a list of their desires that a board has to take seriously.

The people/taxpayers still remain at the negotiating table through their elected school board members! And there's no reason to pretend that the board members and union rep are laying in a meadow strumming a guitar. Things get very heated between the two.

The union serves as a legitimate representative of the teacher. There are a lot of cases where an administrator can effectively bully a teacher around without a union rep present.

You go to an extreme though. I can see arguing for individual bargaining as an alternative way for teacher representation. But you think that teachers should have no representation, no voice, except the passive yes or no of the demands inflicted upon them?

I'm all for the teachers having the right to ask for a raise for themselves, based on their performance. I'm all for them being able to take a job with a different school that will pay them more. My only complaint is with the "it's all of us or none of us" approach that unions take. They defend the bad apples by threatening to tip the barrel over. As much as school boards hate the unions they know the expedient thing to do is pay up and a very small percentage of that money will come directly from them.

mnchiefsguy
02-24-2011, 04:02 PM
I'm all for the teachers having the right to ask for a raise for themselves, based on their performance. I'm all for them being able to take a job with a different school that will pay them more. My only complaint is with the "it's all of us or none of us" approach that unions take. They defend the bad apples by threatening to tip the barrel over. As much as school boards hate the unions they know the expedient thing to do is pay up and a very small percentage of that money will come directly from them.

Exactly. The union makes it so time consuming, and expensive to fire a bad teacher (through hearings, procedures, etc.), that not only is it more expedient for school boards to cave, it is cheaper for them most of the time as well.

patteeu
02-24-2011, 04:10 PM
The collective bargaining rights, as I understand them, allow for good faith negotiations between the teachers union and the school board. I think it's crazy to say that the teachers shouldn't have any right to put up a list of their desires that a board has to take seriously.

The people/taxpayers still remain at the negotiating table through their elected school board members! And there's no reason to pretend that the board members and union rep are laying in a meadow strumming a guitar. Things get very heated between the two.

The union serves as a legitimate representative of the teacher. There are a lot of cases where an administrator can effectively bully a teacher around without a union rep present.

You go to an extreme though. I can see arguing for individual bargaining as an alternative way for teacher representation. But you think that teachers should have no representation, no voice, except the passive yes or no of the demands inflicted upon them?

How do 80+% of private workers ever manage to get by without union representation?

Jenson71
02-24-2011, 05:45 PM
How do 80+% of private workers ever manage to get by without union representation?

Well, things aren't as good as when 1/3 of the work force was unionized. But we're still reaping a lot of the benefits from that era. Now it would be diasastrous to take some of it away.

Saul Good
02-24-2011, 06:03 PM
Well, things aren't as good as when 1/3 of the work force was unionized. But we're still reaping a lot of the benefits from that era. Now it would be diasastrous to take some of it away.

What is being taken away? Are these teachers not allowed to unionize? Is that really what is happening, or are the histrionics premature?

|Zach|
02-24-2011, 06:06 PM
It is pretty interesting watching this all play out.

Saul Good
02-24-2011, 06:11 PM
It is pretty interesting watching this all play out.

It's pretty interesting watching a kid throw a tantrum in the checkout line because his mom won't buy him a candy bar, too.

Of course, my thought is that I would smack the shit out of the kid if he were my son.

HonestChieffan
02-24-2011, 06:12 PM
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/general_politics/february_2011/67_disapprove_of_legislators_fleeing_wisconsin_to_avoid_vote

Unions will ultimately be the loser in this. Democrat fleebaggers who are in hiding will likely get booted in next election.

|Zach|
02-24-2011, 06:12 PM
It's pretty interesting watching a kid throw a tantrum in the checkout line because his mom won't buy him a candy bar, too.

Of course, my thought is that I would smack the shit out of the kid if he were my son.

I don't find that interesting at all.

Jenson71
02-24-2011, 08:09 PM
What is being taken away? Are these teachers not allowed to unionize? Is that really what is happening, or are the histrionics premature?

The ability to have collective bargaining rights for state workers is found in state statutes. You get rid of that, then the right to submit your wage/benefits/hours to the board with the law compelling good faith negotiations is completely gone.

A union without collective bargaining rights is a mere gnat.

Saul Good
02-24-2011, 08:13 PM
The ability to have collective bargaining rights for state workers is found in state statutes. You get rid of that, then the right to submit your wage/benefits/hours to the board with the law compelling good faith negotiations is completely gone.

A union without collective bargaining rights is a mere gnat.

Walker is trying to do away with collective bargaining with respect to wage/benefits/hours?

'Hamas' Jenkins
02-24-2011, 08:15 PM
The doctors gain by having people protest something that they oppose. Do you suppose that they have NO motivation for doing this?

That's preposterously convoluted logic.

Jenson71
02-24-2011, 08:15 PM
Walker is trying to do away with collective bargaining with respect to wage/benefits/hours?

Wages is the one thing they still get to offer, per the bill.

Saul Good
02-24-2011, 08:15 PM
I'll just submit the idea that nobody arguing the side of the unions in this forum seems to know what in the hell they are talking about.

Jenson71
02-24-2011, 08:17 PM
I'll just submit the idea that nobody arguing the side of the unions in this forum seems to know what in the hell they are talking about.

Details.

Saul Good
02-24-2011, 08:17 PM
Wages is the one thing they still get to offer, per the bill.

Yep. Allowing for collective bargaining with respect to wages doesn't exactly equate to stripping them of their collective bargaining rights.

Saul Good
02-24-2011, 08:18 PM
That's preposterously convoluted logic.

How is it convoluted to say that these "doctors" are acting in their own self-interest here? Are you suggesting that they are actively acting against their own self-interest? Those are really the only two choices here.

mlyonsd
02-24-2011, 08:20 PM
Collective bargaining in government jobs is not equal to the same in the private sector.

The way I see the argument playing out in the media is crazy.

Saul Good
02-24-2011, 08:22 PM
One extreme is to have mandatory union dues and let the unions negotiate everything.

The other extreme is to do away with the unions.

The middle ground is to make union membership/dues voluntary and to limit the power of the unions to salary negotiations.

Jenson71
02-24-2011, 08:24 PM
Yep. Allowing for collective bargaining with respect to wages doesn't exactly equate to stripping them of their collective bargaining rights.

Yeah, but with the teachers unions, I think there are a whole host of things that the rights allowed them to have a say in. I remember seeing a chart for one school that had about 40 things listed from tenure to academic freedom.

Jenson71
02-24-2011, 08:25 PM
One extreme is to have mandatory union dues and let the unions negotiate everything.

The other extreme is to do away with the unions.

The middle ground is to make union membership/dues voluntary and to limit the power of the unions to salary negotiations.

But I've also heard that their salaries cannot be increased by a certain amount. It's not like they have much room there.

Saul Good
02-24-2011, 08:26 PM
Yeah, but with the teachers unions, I think there are a whole host of things that the rights allowed them to have a say in. I remember seeing a chart for one school that had about 40 things listed from tenure to academic freedom.

And it's breaking the budget. My wife is a teacher, BTW. The benefits she gets are preposterous. She doesn't pay a dime for her own health insurance, for example. It works in my favor, but it's breaking the state.

Saul Good
02-24-2011, 08:26 PM
But I've also heard that their salaries cannot be increased by a certain amount. It's not like they have much room there.

I don't follow.

Jenson71
02-24-2011, 08:30 PM
I don't follow.

Hence another measure in his bill, which would bar the state government, along with counties and municipalities, from striking deals with unions over anything other than pay rises. Even those would not be allowed, by law, to exceed the inflation rate unless local voters said otherwise in a referendum.

http://www.economist.com/node/18178517

Jenson71
02-24-2011, 08:30 PM
And it's breaking the budget. My wife is a teacher, BTW. The benefits she gets are preposterous. She doesn't pay a dime for her own health insurance, for example. It works in my favor, but it's breaking the state.

It's very reasonable to have full-time teachers pay more for their benefits.

mnchiefsguy
02-24-2011, 08:31 PM
I don't follow.

The Walker bill limits raises for government employees, including teachers, to inflation unless a referendum is passed. While it does limit the increase, it also does not allow the state to unilateral cut said salaries either, as many private companies have had to do.

Saul Good
02-24-2011, 08:34 PM
Hence another measure in his bill, which would bar the state government, along with counties and municipalities, from striking deals with unions over anything other than pay rises. Even those would not be allowed, by law, to exceed the inflation rate unless local voters said otherwise in a referendum.

http://www.economist.com/node/18178517

So there's a theoretical limit on how large raises can be. Unions are still allowed to collectively bargain for pay within those parameters. What is so devastating about that, especially given the current economy in Wisconsin?

Jenson71
02-24-2011, 08:42 PM
So there's a theoretical limit on how large raises can be. Unions are still allowed to collectively bargain for pay within those parameters. What is so devastating about that, especially given the current economy in Wisconsin?

If I'm right, the collective bargaining also goes to their say about other, more-school related matters. The board then gets to make all the decisions. But it's obviously important to have bargaining rights. Why else would there still be protests? And there's legit resentment that other groups were left out.

Saul Good
02-24-2011, 08:43 PM
It's very reasonable to have full-time teachers pay more for their benefits.

So what is so egregious that people are being driven to the streets in protest?

Is it that the pensions they receive aren't being adequately funded? Governor Walker is expected to ask for public workers to contribute six percent to their pension. They currently contribute nothing to their public funded pensions. This sounds like a pretty good deal to me considering that most public employees don't get pensions.

Is it the salary? Milwaukee Teachers' Education Association(MTEA) President Mike Langyel says the average MPS teacher makes $56,000. That sounds pretty good considering that they work 9 months out of the year and make about $13,000 per year more than the average full-time employee in the US.

Is it the health care? State workers are upset with Governor Scott Walker's proposal to make them pay 12% of their health care costs. That's less than half of what the average public-sector employee contributes.


These employees are well compensated, they have tremendous job security, and their benefits are outstanding. The state is broke, and these people are stealing from the taxpayers in order to march in the streets. Why should I sympathize with them?

mnchiefsguy
02-24-2011, 08:43 PM
If I'm right, the collective bargaining also goes to their say about other, more-school related matters. The board then gets to make all the decisions. But it's obviously important to have bargaining rights. Why else would there still be protests? And there's legit resentment that other groups were left out.

Not sure what groups were left out...the bill covers all state employees. The teachers are just the most vocal, as their union is the strongest.

Saul Good
02-24-2011, 08:45 PM
If I'm right, the collective bargaining also goes to their say about other, more-school related matters. The board then gets to make all the decisions. But it's obviously important to have bargaining rights. Why else would there still be protests? And there's legit resentment that other groups were left out.

Why should the employees get to make the decisions on how the business operates? They get to vote just like everyone else. Do pilots get to decide where they want to fly the planes?

Saul Good
02-24-2011, 08:46 PM
Not sure what groups were left out...the bill covers all state employees. The teachers are just the most vocal, as their union is the strongest.

It exempts fire fighters and police. It shouldn't.

Jenson71
02-24-2011, 08:46 PM
So what is so egregious that people are being driven to the streets in protest?

Is it that the pensions they receive aren't being adequately funded? Governor Walker is expected to ask for public workers to contribute six percent to their pension. They currently contribute nothing to their public funded pensions. This sounds like a pretty good deal to me considering that most public employees don't get pensions.

Is it the salary? Milwaukee Teachers' Education Association(MTEA) President Mike Langyel says the average MPS teacher makes $56,000. That sounds pretty good considering that they work 9 months out of the year and make about $13,000 per year more than the average full-time employee in the US.

Is it the health care? State workers are upset with Governor Scott Walker's proposal to make them pay 12% of their health care costs. That's less than half of what the average public-sector employee contributes.


These employees are well compensated, they have tremendous job security, and their benefits are outstanding. The state is broke, and these people are stealing from the taxpayers in order to march in the streets. Why should I sympathize with them?

Stealing?

Jenson71
02-24-2011, 08:47 PM
Not sure what groups were left out...the bill covers all state employees. The teachers are just the most vocal, as their union is the strongest.

Per David Brooks column yesterday, police and firefighters, more conservative groups, exempt.

Saul Good
02-24-2011, 08:49 PM
Per David Brooks column yesterday, police and firefighters, more conservative groups, exempt.

I have yet to see a single protester object to this exemption. Do you feel that this is why they are protesting? I see where the governor is coming from on this one, but I disagree with him.

mnchiefsguy
02-24-2011, 08:50 PM
Per David Brooks column yesterday, police and firefighters, more conservative groups, exempt.

Yes, police and firefighters were exempt, but the rest of the state employees were not. Also, I would not classify the police and the firefighters as more conservative groups....both of those unions endorsed Walker's opponent in the last election, and they campaigned pretty hard against him.

Jenson71
02-24-2011, 08:50 PM
Why should the employees get to make the decisions on how the business operates? They get to vote just like everyone else. Do pilots get to decide where they want to fly the planes?

They aren't the only or final deciders.

Saul Good
02-24-2011, 08:50 PM
Stealing?

Using falsified documents to receive undue pay is stealing.

Jenson71
02-24-2011, 08:53 PM
I have yet to see a single protester object to this exemption. Do you feel that this is why they are protesting? I see where the governor is coming from on this one, but I disagree with him.

No, obviously it's not the only reason they are protesting. I just think they feel disrespected and there's something to that.

Saul Good
02-24-2011, 08:54 PM
They aren't the only or final deciders.

By way of their vote, they get more say than most employees get. Why should they get more? The adversarial relationship between employer and employee is critical to a functioning business. This line is already blurred in the public sector, as the employees can help vote a sympathetic employer into office. Why should it be further blurred by giving these employees more say? Somebody has to protect the interests of the business (the business being the taxpayers).

Jenson71
02-24-2011, 08:55 PM
Yes, police and firefighters were exempt, but the rest of the state employees were not. Also, I would not classify the police and the firefighters as more conservative groups....both of those unions endorsed Walker's opponent in the last election, and they campaigned pretty hard against him.

Yeah, well, that's the union, not the cops and firefighters. There's probably a lot more discontent with the union from those members.

Saul Good
02-24-2011, 08:55 PM
No, obviously it's not the only reason they are protesting. I just think they feel disrespected and there's something to that.

So your comment about the resentment was a non sequitir.

Saul Good
02-24-2011, 08:57 PM
Yeah, well, that's the union, not the cops and firefighters. There's probably a lot more discontent with the union from those members.

Someone should put forth a plan which allows these employees to choose whether or not they want to have a portion of their salary go towards union dues.

Jenson71
02-24-2011, 08:57 PM
Using falsified documents to receive undue pay is stealing.

Well if the bill passes maybe they'll lose their paid sick days because they don't have collective bargaining rights outside of minimal wage discretion now.

Jenson71
02-24-2011, 08:59 PM
By way of their vote, they get more say than most employees get. Why should they get more? The adversarial relationship between employer and employee is critical to a functioning business. This line is already blurred in the public sector, as the employees can help vote a sympathetic employer into office. Why should it be further blurred by giving these employees more say? Somebody has to protect the interests of the business (the business being the taxpayers).

Yeah, that's what the school board is.

Saul Good
02-24-2011, 08:59 PM
Well if the bill passes maybe they'll lose their paid sick days because they don't have collective bargaining rights outside of minimal wage discretion now.

That sounds like a good thing given the fact that they have taken to using the current system to cheat the taxpayers.

Jenson71
02-24-2011, 08:59 PM
So your comment about the resentment was a non sequitir.

No, it was something that added fuel.

Saul Good
02-24-2011, 09:00 PM
Yeah, that's what the school board is.

Right. The school board makes the decisions. You noted earlier that part of what the union wants is to take away the autonomy of the school board.

Saul Good
02-24-2011, 09:02 PM
No, it was something that added fuel.

I see that as a concession, not fuel to the fire.

Jenson71
02-24-2011, 09:05 PM
Someone should put forth a plan which allows these employees to choose whether or not they want to have a portion of their salary go towards union dues.

So, right to work state.

Saul Good
02-24-2011, 09:09 PM
So, right to work state.

...or Walker's plan

dirk digler
02-24-2011, 09:56 PM
Interesting

Only 5 states do not have collective bargaining for educators and have deemed it illegal. Those states and their ranking on ACT/SAT scores are as follows:
South Carolina – 50th
North Carolina – 49th
Georgia – 48th
Texas – 47th
Virginia – 44th


If you are wondering, Wisconsin, with its collective bargaining for teachers, is ranked 2nd in the country.

This isn’t to say that the lack of collective bargaining explains these poor outcomes, of course, but it is true that the evidence that breaking teacher’s unions improves educational outcomes is somewhere between “exceptionally weak” and “non-existent.”

HonestChieffan
02-24-2011, 10:18 PM
Interesting

I bet the only difference between wisconsin and the states listed is teacher pay.....right?

HolyHandgernade
02-25-2011, 12:20 AM
Why should the employees get to make the decisions on how the business operates? They get to vote just like everyone else. Do pilots get to decide where they want to fly the planes?

No, but they do get to help decide work conditions, like how many hours in a row they can work, mandating safety guidelines, etc. They also have invaluable input to what actually happens during a flight as oppose to what some bean counter thinks "ought" to happen.

Mr. Flopnuts
02-25-2011, 02:59 AM
Interesting

LMAO This shit cracks me up. The good news is, I don't have to pay as much money for your kids to go to school anymore. The bad news is, they'll be dumb as a box of rocks. Thanks! I think......

RubberSponge
02-25-2011, 04:19 AM
LMAO This shit cracks me up. The good news is, I don't have to pay as much money for your kids to go to school anymore. The bad news is, they'll be dumb as a box of rocks. Thanks! I think......

Don't worry. The market will solve this social problem.

Saul Good
02-25-2011, 06:35 AM
Highest unemployment by state.

Nevada 14.5
California 12.5
Florida 12.0
Michigan 11.7
Rhode Island 11.5


Highest Union membership by state.

New York
Hawaii
Alaska
Washington
Michigan
California
New Jersey
Connecticut
Nevada
Illinois
Oregon
Rhode Island


4 of the worst 5 states in terms of unemployment rank in the top 25% of states in terms of union membership per capita.

Saul Good
02-25-2011, 06:42 AM
Lowest unemployment by state/Unemployment Rate/Union Ranking by State:

10. Oklahoma 6.8 38th
9. Virginia 6.7 48th
8. Hawaii 6.4 2nd
7. Wyoming 6.4 34th
6. Iowa 6.3 26th
5. Vermont 5.8 28th
4. New Hamp. 5.5 27th
3. S.Dakota 4.6 45th
2. Nebraska 4.4 32nd
1. N. Dakota 3.8 40th


Of the 10 states with the lowest unemployment rate, only 1 is in the top half of the country in union membership per capita.

Jenson71
02-25-2011, 06:50 AM
That goes to your argument that teachers union should be stripped of most of their collective bargaining rights?

dirk digler
02-25-2011, 07:03 AM
I bet the only difference between wisconsin and the states listed is teacher pay.....right?

No. Those listed are traditional conservative states :p

dirk digler
02-25-2011, 07:07 AM
LMAO This shit cracks me up. The good news is, I don't have to pay as much money for your kids to go to school anymore. The bad news is, they'll be dumb as a box of rocks. Thanks! I think......

Actually Texas pays quite a bit more for their teachers than Wisconsin yet have shitter results.

And just for reference depending on what site you look at Wisconsin is ranked 24-28th in teacher pay.

The Rick
02-25-2011, 07:08 AM
It exempts fire fighters and police. It shouldn't.
They're exempted mainly because if they walked off the job, public safety would be at risk. Walker didn't want to cross that bridge...at this point in time.

HonestChieffan
02-25-2011, 07:39 AM
No. Those listed are traditional conservative states :p

And states with a high % of private schools because the public schools simply suck and always have. Those SAT numbers are never counted in these statistics.

Saul Good
02-25-2011, 08:16 AM
That goes to your argument that teachers union should be stripped of most of their collective bargaining rights?

Not necessarily, but it should be part of the discussion. There is a strong correlation between union membership and unemployment.

I am grateful that unions exist. I don't want my son working in the coal mines at age 4. That said, they have been making a habit of feasting on roasted golden goose. There has to be a middle ground, and Walker's plan strikes me as a pretty good starting point. It may not be perfect, but it certainly doesn't warrant the petulance we've seen in Madison.

ClevelandBronco
02-25-2011, 12:46 PM
By way of their vote, they get more say than most employees get. Why should they get more? The adversarial relationship between employer and employee is critical to a functioning business. This line is already blurred in the public sector, as the employees can help vote a sympathetic employer into office. Why should it be further blurred by giving these employees more say? Somebody has to protect the interests of the business (the business being the taxpayers).

Yeah, that's what the school board is.

I'd agree with you, Jenson, if school board elections were required to coincide with general elections. Often, though, that's not the case and less motivated citizens don't show up to the polls. Teacher (and other more interested party) turnout often represents a disproportional share of the votes in these elections by design. Perhaps that dynamic will begin to change now.

Garcia Bronco
02-25-2011, 02:03 PM
i BLEIEVE ALSO THE TOP TEN STATES IN DEBT ARE ALL DEMOCRATIC UNION HAVING STRONGHOLDS...

HonestChieffan
02-25-2011, 08:55 PM
Teacher Unions looking at a major PR problem.....

46% View Unionized Teachers As a Bad Thing, 37% Disagree

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/general_politics/february_2011/46_view_unionized_teachers_as_a_bad_thing_37_disagree

joesomebody
02-26-2011, 02:22 AM
I'm not sure where I stand on this issue. One thing I am rather tired of is the thought that teachers only work 8-3...

I don't know a single teacher who gets to just show up right when the bell rings and start teaching. My mom has been a teacher for 30 years and is one of the hardest working people I know. She is a Special Ed director now, but as a teacher she would have to write 60+ individual lesson plans due weekly, countless weekly IEP meetings and had files to keep up to date for every student (again easily 60+). She rarely didn't work Saturdays and usually was at school from 7am to 5pm or later every day.

In summers she would teach summer school and later in her career she started teaching college courses at night and summers.

Are there shitty lazy teachers in the world? Yes, and maybe that is a good reason to start giving teachers raises based on performance and dedication instead of only based of years at the job and level of post graduate education.

But calling teachers lazy is pretty lame, so lets just stick to the facts. If Wisconsin teachers are making more than the average person with the same college education then we do need to take a serious look at their wages/compensation. Maybe do like the military, and have yearly statements that calculate every "employees" actual salary, which included pay and all benefits and explained what that would equal in pure civilian salary.

joesomebody
02-26-2011, 02:42 AM
Good to see Missouri is doing above average:

National tests we were above the average in every category:

http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2011/tables/11s0265.pdf

(Wisconsin does better than we do in early education, but by Jr. High Missouri takes the lead)

ACT scores we're at or above average in every category:

http://www.act.org/news/data/10/states.html

Not appropriate to look at SAT for Missouri. Only about 6% of Missourians take the SAT, so it would be skewed.

Interestingly enough, only 7 states pay their teachers less than Missouri on average.

http://www.nea.org/home/29402.htm

Bwana
02-26-2011, 09:28 AM
It looks like they are going to run off the hippys today.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/02/26/wis-capitol-close-sunday-afternoon/#

vailpass
02-26-2011, 09:33 AM
It looks like they are going to run off the hippys today.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/02/26/wis-capitol-close-sunday-afternoon/#

Wow. How long you think it takes to get rid of the odors of patchouli and government cheese?

Bwana
02-26-2011, 10:53 AM
Wow. How long you think it takes to get rid of the odors of patchouli and government cheese?

It depends on how much bleach they have on hand.

http://img2.walgreens.com/dbimagecache/04460002510_220x220_a.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_hVkPhgN5Xsc/TKFH4xBamGI/AAAAAAAAAU4/rZMe_VIRk5A/s1600/haight-hippie.jpg

The Mad Crapper
02-26-2011, 11:56 AM
WEAC PAC Spending - Consistently #1 in all elections - far surpassing all other PACs combined ($11,449,803 since 2000 - All on Democrat candidates.).

2010 Wisconsin Election Cycle - Total Spending: $1,599,094.00

http://www.wisdc.org/index.php?module=wisdc.websiteforms&cmd=pacspending&year=2010&pac=500189

2009 Spring Elections - Spent: $564,993 In the 2009 race for state school superintendent, WEAC supported candidate Tony Evers over Rose Fernandez, Lowell Holtz, Van Mobley and Todd Price. On March 24 WEAC also reported spending nearly $16,000 on brochures and mailings to support Evers and to oppose Fernandez. http://www.wisdc.org/ind09pacs.php

2008 Fall Elections - Total Spending: $2,099,984 Direct PAC contributions to 2008 candidates 2007-2008: $39,531 Minimum conduit contributions to 2008 candidates 2007-2008: $98,107 http://www.wisdc.org/ind08pacs.php#i500189

2008 Supreme Court Justice election - Spent: $349,325 http://www.wisdc.org/hijackjustice08indexp.php

2006 Wisconsin elections - Total Spending: $1,993,438 WEAC has two conduits (United Staff Union and Children's School Fund) through which it contributed over $142,000 to candidates in the 2005-2006 election cycle. Direct PAC contributions to 2006 candidates 2005-2006: $58,389 http://www.wisdc.org/ind06pacs.php#i500189

2004 Wisconsin Elections - Total Spending: $1,882,427.56 Direct PAC Contributions to 2004 Legislative Candidates: $38,939 http://www.wisdc.org/ind04pacs.php

2002 Wisconsin Elections - Total Spending:$1,396,273 Direct PAC Contributions to Candidates 2001-02: $112,100 http://www.wisdc.org/ind02interests.php#weac

2000 Wisconsin Elections Spending: $1,051,369 Groups affiliated with WEAC that supported candidates through independent expenditures are: Coulee Region United Educators ($1,431); Eau Claire Association of Educators ($829); South West Education Association ($1,546); Winnebagoland Uniserv - the 14th highest independent spender - ($3,156) and La Crosse Education Association ($871). These sums are not included in WEAC’s total. http://www.wisdc.org/hijackinterests.php

alnorth
02-26-2011, 02:00 PM
Teacher Unions looking at a major PR problem.....

46% View Unionized Teachers As a Bad Thing, 37% Disagree

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/general_politics/february_2011/46_view_unionized_teachers_as_a_bad_thing_37_disagree

Take a look at the questions. Rasmussen's polling on this issue has been worthless with hopelessly leading questions. I'd be happy if this poll's result reflected the mood of the country, but it does not.

Rasmussen = this:

<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/Hjh13hxehl4" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

RedNeckRaider
02-27-2011, 06:33 AM
"In a report released in December 2010, the federal Bureau of Labor Statistics found that the average state/local government worker earns $40.10 an hour in salary and benefits. The same report found the average private worker earns $27.68 an hour in salary and benefits."

I need a gubburment job~