PDA

View Full Version : Nat'l Security Italy makes immigrants speak Italian


HonestChieffan
03-06-2011, 06:35 AM
Italy makes immigrants speak Italian
By FRANCES D'EMILIO
ASSOCIATED PRESS


Svetlana Cojochru feels insulted.

The Moldovan has lived here seven years as a nanny to Italian kids and caregiver to the elderly, but in order to stay she's had to prove her language skills by writing a postcard to an imaginary friend and answering a fictional job ad.

"I feel like a guest," said Cojochru. She had just emerged from Beato Angelico middle school where she took a language test to comply with a new law requiring basic Italian proficiency for permanent residency permits following five years of legal residence.

Italy is the latest Western European country turning the screws on an expanding immigrant population by demanding language skills in exchange for work permits, or in some cases, citizenship. While enacted last year in the name of integration, these requirements also reflect anxiety that foreigners might dilute fiercely-prized national identity or even, especially in Britain's case, pose terror risks.

Some immigrant advocates worry that as harsh economic times make it harder for natives to keep jobs, such measures will become more a vehicle for intolerance than integration. Others say it's only natural that newcomers learn the language of their host nation, seeing it as a condition to ensure they can contribute to society.

So far, Italy is only giving a gentle turn to the screw. Cojochru and other test-takers described the exam as easy. No oral skills were tested.

In Austria, terms are tougher. There, where native speakers have been sometimes known to scold immigrant parents for not speaking proper German to their children, foreigners from outside the European Union need to prove they speak basic German within five years of receiving their first residency permit. Failure to do so can bring fines and jeopardize their right to stay.

The government argues that foreigners who master German can better integrate and help foster understanding across cultures. But, like in Italy, critics say it's a just a pretext for erecting barriers.

"The German language is increasingly being used as a marginalization tool," said Alev Korun, a Turkish-born member of the opposition Greens party who immigrated to Austria when she was 19.

Austria's Cabinet approved new rules requiring most immigrants to have elementary German skills before they even enter the country. They're part of a plan to create a new "red-white-red card" - the colors of the Austrian flag - for a work permit for qualified non-EU citizens aimed at filling gaps left by an aging work force. The legislation now goes to parliament for consideration.

Critics say requiring people to speak basic German before they set foot in Austria would be an unreasonable barrier for people from poor, rural areas who can't afford or access German classes.

"I think this is a very clear form of discrimination of certain type of immigrants," said Barbara Liegl, head of the Austrian anti-racism organization ZARA. "I see massive disadvantages for specific groups."

Terrorism pushed Britain to start strictly enforcing a requirement for English-language competency for prospective citizens. Three of the 2005 London suicide bombers were native Britons of Pakistani descent while the fourth was born in Jamaica.

Since 2005, would-be citizens and permanent residency holders have been asked to prove their command of "Britishness" by answering multiple choice questions, in English, on British history, culture and law, from explaining the meaning behind the fireworks-filled Guy Fawkes Night, to knowing which British courts use a jury system.

Britain's government has pledged to dramatically cut immigration, and the language requirement is effectively a tool to put a cap on the number of newcomers, said Sarah Mulley, an immigration expert at the Institute of Public Policy Research, a London think tank.

Home Secretary Theresa May, who aims to cut immigration to below 100,000 by 2015, said language tests will help weed out those who don't plan to contribute to British life. She has singled out spouses seeking marriage visas to join English-speaking partners as a particular concern.

"There is a concern about long-established communities in the U.K. who are not well integrated, for examples, some of the Pakistani (and) Bangladeshi communities, and that's largely linked to language limitation," Mulley added.

But Mohammed Reza, a Pakistani on a student visa who is studying for Britain's citizenship test, saw language as a path to integration.

"If I'm wearing traditional clothing on my way to the mosque, everyone on the tube (subway) looks at me funny and gives me wide berth," Reza said. "It's hard to beat the stereotype, but speaking English is probably the most important thing for fitting in. That's why I read as much as I can and try to learn the lingo here."

In Italy's case, there has been a much weaker tradition of immigration and no major Islamic terror attacks. Still, a strong spike in newcomers in recent years - along with the very newness of the immigration phenomenon - has fueled a xenophobia surge and boosted the popularity of the anti-immigrant Northern League, Premier Silvio Berlusconi's main coalition partner.

In 1990, immigrants numbered some 1.14 million out of Italy's then 56.7 million people, or about 2 percent, according to the state statistics bureau, ISTAT. At the start of this year, foreigners living in Italy amounted to 4.56 million of a total population of 60.6 million, or 7.5 percent, with immigrants' offspring accounting for an ever larger percentage of births in Italy.

Amid the trend, Northern League leader Umberto Bossi's influence in government has grown ever stronger, his rhetoric often laced with a racist tinge. Bossi once referred to immigrants as "bingo bongos" and has suggested that migrant smugglers' boats off Italy's shores be fired upon with cannons.

Last year, a Northern League lawmaker proposed extending the language requirement to all non-EU citizens who want to open a store or other business in Italy, but the move died in Parliament.

Bossi "represents the extreme" in stands on immigration, said Manuele Bacci, 38, one of a fourth generation of butchers running a shop in Florence's cavernous San Lorenzo covered market. The other extreme, he said, is absolutely no restrictions.

"We need to take a step toward them and they need to take a step toward us," was Bacci's formula for integration.

But many immigrants say they'll be rejected no matter how hard they try to fit in.

Cojochru, the Moldovan nanny and caregiver, hoped obtaining permanent residence would help her bring her two teen children to Italy; they live with her sister in Moldova, where wages are among the lowest in Europe. She was skeptical that the language requirement would encourage integration.

Italians always "see me as a foreigner," an outsider, despite her years in the country and despite her flawless command of the local language, she said.

http://www.seattlepi.com/national/1103ap_eu_italy_speak_our_language.html?source=mypi

Chiefshrink
03-06-2011, 07:39 AM
Too bad that "English" won't be our official American language. To the Marxist Libs it's all about "destroying America" and our culture as it came to be(ala Capitalism,God,Family,etc.....)

Jenson71
03-06-2011, 08:54 AM
Too bad that "English" won't be our official American language. To the Marxist Libs it's all about "destroying America" as it came to be(ala Capitalism,God,Family,etc.....)

What would that be like, English as the official language? Would you fine people for speaking a different language?

Chiefshrink
03-06-2011, 10:44 AM
What would that be like, English as the official language? Would you fine people for speaking a different language?

Well here is what it looks like without "English" being our official language and how you lose your culture and eventually your country not to mention the massive amounts of Federal $$ spent to accomodate our PC culture of many languages and at the forefront of that obviously the Spanish language.:rolleyes:

The Case for English Only
November 18th, 2010 Admin
Enough already! How many languages should we be expected to speak in America? And, how many languages should our government and other institutions, such as hospitals and schools, be required to accommodate? The problem is not just Spanish speakers. It’s the 322 tongues that are spoken in America today.


I ran the local hospital in the late 1980s and early 90s, and we were required to have translators available for about 16 different languages at that time. You may wonder how on earth could we do that in an area that had a population of less than 20,000 people at the time? Fortunately, because we happen to have many residents and visitors from other countries, it was not an impossible task for us. But, what about other small communities that do not have the resources that are available here in Santa Ynez Valley? Alameda County (CA) Medical Center, which “has 18 full-time interpreters or staff in addition to 19 on-call translators,” is another example of the burden that such laws can place on public institutions.


Because of the huge influx of Spanish speakers from south of the border, Hispanics now comprise about 40% of the population in Santa Barbara County, many of whom do not speak English. So, should we be required to print all government documents in both English and Spanish, teach school in Spanish, give civil service exams in Spanish, hire people who don’t speak English?


It’s not just about communication, although that’s certainly important. It’s also a pocketbook issue, about the economic impact that trying to accommodate multiple languages has on our society. U.S. English, Inc. offers some interesting facts that surely should be considered in any discussion of the “English Only” issue.


>“Since 1980, the number of U.S. residents who are limited English proficient has more than doubled, from 10.2 million to 21.3 million.” (Source: U.S. Census Bureau)


>“In 2000, 11.9 million U.S. residents lived in linguistically isolated households, meaning that no one in the household spoke English at home or spoke English ‘very well.’” (Source: U.S. Census Bureau)


>“Immigrants who speak English ‘not well’ or ‘not at all’ have median weekly earnings approximately 57 percent of those of U.S. born workers.”


>“Poverty and the need for public benefits, such as food stamps, are more closely related to limited English proficiency than with citizenship or legal status.”


>“The Canadian Government spends 0 million annually to do government business in both of the nation’s official languages.”


>“The cost of multilingual ballots and translations represented one-eighth of Los Angeles County’s million expense in the Nov. 2004 general election.”


>“The City of San Francisco must spend 0,000 for each language that a document is translated into under the city’s bilingual government ordinance.”


>“79 percent of Americans, and 81 percent of first and second generation Americans favor making English the official language of the United States.”


>“Air Canada spends more than ,265,000 per year conforming to Canada’s bilingual requirements, requiring the airline to generate an additional 5,000,000 in additional sales to cover these costs.”


It’s clear that trying to accommodate all cultural groups costs big bucks. For example, the National Research Council of the National Academy of Sciences 1997 reported, “More than 0 million have been spent in the last 30 years to assess the value of bilingual education. Two startling conclusions made in the study include:


(1) There is no evidence that a program of native language instruction has greater benefits than any other type of education program and


(2) Teaching children to read in English first, instead of in their native tongue, has no negative consequences.” At that point the federal government was already spending 5 million a year on bilingual programs.


Furthermore, there are healthcare consequences for non-English or limited-English speakers. The Commonwealth Fund found that “limited English proficiency Latinos are 3-1/2 times more likely not to have had their blood pressure checked in the last five years, three times more likely not to have a dental exam in the last five years and twice as likely not have had their cholesterol checked in the last five years.”


Multi-language also means multicultural, and such societies often engender a view of their fellow citizens that can easily lead to strife among the various factions. “My culture and my language are better than yours” often becomes the unspoken mantra of those on all sides. But, is the Chinese culture better than Mexican? Or French better than English? Or Hmong better than Vietnamese? Or Japanese better than Italian, German, Russian, or Slovak?


We may not hear it verbalized very often, but it’s clearly present in the attitudes, beliefs, and relationships of the many ethnic groups that make up our population today. It’s only natural. People tend to associate with those who are more like themselves, instinctively understand them, have a common history, the same cultural values and attitudes, and no legislation can change that. The saying, “Birds of a feather flock together” describes this simple reality quite clearly.


In my opinion, passing laws to accommodate cultural and language differences merely accentuates the differences and tends to separate people. All too often, it engenders or increases hostility between groups, such as we see today between certain ethnic groups and with many of those Americans who support “English Only.”


It seems to me that the goal is, or should be, to integrate everyone who immigrates to our country to become as American as possible as quickly as possible. And, speaking English is the cornerstone for accomplishing this. The idea of labeling ourselves as hyphenated Americans that has become vogue in recent years is anathema to me. Why do we want to identify people as African-American, Italian-American, Irish-American, Mexican-American, Chinese or Japanese-American, etc.?


Theodore Roosevelt’s ideas on immigrants and being an American spoke to this issue very clearly in 1907: “In the first place, we should insist that if the immigrant who comes


here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the person’s becoming


in every facet an American, and nothing but an American…There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn’t an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag…We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language… and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people.”


So, what is the “English Only” movement all about? Quite simply, it’s about making English the official language of the United States. A bill to accomplish this (H.R. 997) was introduced in the House of Representatives in February of this year, and U.S. English, Inc. reports that it is supported by more than 80%of all Americans and almost two-thirds of Hispanics, according to polls taken in 2006.


Thirty states already have some sort of English only law and, to my knowledge, it hasn’t had any significant negative impacts in any of them.


“The English Language Unity Act of 2007 would require the United States government to conduct official business in English,” while still retaining the flexibility to permit or require that other languages be used to protect public health and safety, national security, or for the needs of commerce and the criminal justice system.


I’m all for it.


© 2008 Harris R. Sherline, All Rights Reserved

FD
03-06-2011, 10:51 AM
Its strange to read about countries that don't have a long and proud tradition of welcoming immigrants to their shores. Just another reason to be proud to be an American.

Jenson71
03-06-2011, 10:54 AM
Well here is what it looks like without "English" being our official language and how you lose your culture and eventually your country not to mention the massive amounts of Federal $$ spent to accomodate our PC culture of many languages and at the forefront of that obviously the Spanish language.:rolleyes:

So here is the part of the article that talks about what America would look like:


“The English Language Unity Act of 2007 would require the United States government to conduct official business in English,” while still retaining the flexibility to permit or require that other languages be used to protect public health and safety, national security, or for the needs of commerce and the criminal justice system.

My question to you is: isn't that already the case? Doesn't the United States government conduct official business in English?

Jenson71
03-06-2011, 11:05 AM
And I'm also interested in what other measures would occur as a result of English only legislation. What are you in support of, sportsshrink? Do you favor monetary fines for Spanish speakers? School suspensions for students who speak Spanish with their friends in the halls? Mandatory English tests for hopeful immigrants? Fines on businesses who cater to immigrants or non-English speakers?

What do we need to do to stop the Marxist Libs who are all about "destroying America" as it came to be(ala Capitalism,God,Family,etc.....)?

Chiefshrink
03-06-2011, 08:36 PM
What are you in support of, sportsshrink? Do you favor monetary fines for Spanish speakers? School suspensions for students who speak Spanish with their friends in the halls? Mandatory English tests for hopeful immigrants? Fines on businesses who cater to immigrants or non-English speakers?

What do we need to do to stop the Marxist Libs who are all about "destroying America" as it came to be(ala Capitalism,God,Family,etc.....)?

Over accommodation to the "illegals" to the point of the "illegal" saying to himself or herself, "Hey, I don't have to learn english or integrate into the American culture and I can live off the "Gringo's tax dollars" illegally while getting free healthcare to boot! Hell, I can even commit crimes and get released by local and federal agents back into the American society because ICE does not enforce the laws. This "IS" a great country, man!!!

I'm talking "illegal" here and you are talking legal immigrant I assume. The problem comes when we over-accommodate legal immigrants this prevents them from totally assimilating into our culture. And when you don't enforce the "border laws" already on the books this makes it easier for "illegals" to set up camp here and you are already over accommodating the legal immigrants,thus you only "GROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOW" a larger population that much quicker that works against our culture and heavily burdens our Fed Govt financially(ala "We The People") to pay for all this.

The over accommodation is the result of ill-gotten gain $$$$$(ala greed of employers-to the point of not wanting our immigration laws enforced-breaking the law) regardless of politics.

To fine a legal immigrant for speaking spanish? To fine a legal immigrant school child for talking spanish in the hall with his spanish friends? Fine a company for catering to a legal immigrant? Nonsense!! Don't have to worry about fines when we enforce our immigration laws and our 1st Amendment rights are just fine and the "legal immigrant' can choose however he or she wishes to speak but he or she will just make it harder for themselves if they don't adapt to the language and culture.

Enforce our immigration laws and don't over accommodate and we don't have to worry about losing our culture,national security and our country. You see Jenson, you seem to think there is no such thing as "illegal" when you step foot in this country,period. Thus in your "Lib world" "illegals" are not "illegal" they are immigrants pure and simple and they have "US rights" as well. Sorry 71, it ain't working and it's against the law, except if you are for "transforming Amerika" which I'm sure you are all for.

Quit trying to split hairs here:rolleyes:

Garcia Bronco
03-06-2011, 08:42 PM
Molto Bene!

kysirsoze
03-06-2011, 08:50 PM
This whole English only stuff is pretty ridiculous. You think most immigrants don't want to learn? It's difficult to do this when you are working two or three jobs to make enough money for your family both in America and back home. Also, while ESL classes are offered in most communities that would require them, there are long waiting lists to even make it in the class.

Further, how is it that difficult to just ignore the other languages on signs and whatnot. How is it "Destroying America"? That is just silly.

HonestChieffan
03-06-2011, 08:57 PM
Its not Italian only....what a stupid reach. All they expect is immigrants learn Italian, not abandon the native language they bring with them.

Jenson71
03-06-2011, 09:24 PM
Over accommodation to the "illegals" . . . .

Quit trying to split hairs here:rolleyes:

Ah, an illegal immigration rant instead of actually staying on point. Strange to see this side of you.

But yes, you are right, I want this nation to be a bunch of illegals. I also want the country to be bankrupt, everyone to be atheist, and no such thing as families anymore.

Jenson71
03-06-2011, 09:32 PM
Its not Italian only....what a stupid reach. All they expect is immigrants learn Italian, not abandon the native language they bring with them.

Oh, well, I'm glad this is such a minor thing that you thought a thread needed to be started about it.

Chiefshrink
03-06-2011, 09:32 PM
Its not Italian only....what a stupid reach. All they expect is immigrants learn Italian, not abandon the native language they bring with them.

Precisely!:thumb:

Jenson71
03-06-2011, 09:33 PM
Precisely!:thumb:

So you just want Spanish immigrants to learn English?

Jenson71
03-06-2011, 09:47 PM
This whole English only stuff is pretty ridiculous. You think most immigrants don't want to learn? It's difficult to do this when you are working two or three jobs to make enough money for your family both in America and back home. Also, while ESL classes are offered in most communities that would require them, there are long waiting lists to even make it in the class.

Further, how is it that difficult to just ignore the other languages on signs and whatnot. How is it "Destroying America"? That is just silly.

Most Mexicans want to kill you, take your money, and rape your family. Please protect America from these animals by voting Tea Party like a good American who isn't an atheist, Marxist.

Chiefshrink
03-06-2011, 09:51 PM
So you just want Spanish immigrants to learn English?

See, there you go again 7-11:shrug: trying to split hairs again like an American Communist Lib Union(ACLU) lawyer would do:LOL: There is no such thing as an "illegal" in your world.

The Spanish 'legal' immigrant can speak whatever he wishes as far as the Constitution is concerned and accommodation should be at the bare minimum as the previous article that I posted says in order to hasten the assimilation process into our culture.

When an "illegal" alien is here they have no rights and if we enforce our immigration laws the language is a non-issue because they just go back home and come in legally the right way.

Chiefshrink
03-06-2011, 09:54 PM
Most Mexicans want to kill you, take your money, and rape your family. Please protect America from these animals by voting Tea Party like a good American who isn't an atheist, Marxist.

Keith Olberman must be your biological father,uh:thumb:

Jenson71
03-06-2011, 09:55 PM
See, there you go again 7-11:shrug: trying to split hairs again like an American Communist Lib Union(ACLU) lawyer would do:LOL: There is no such thing as an "illegal" in your world.

The Spanish 'legal' immigrant can speak whatever he wishes as far as the Constitution is concerned and accommodation should be at the bare minimum as the previous article that I posted says in order to hasten the assimilation process into our culture.

When an "illegal" alien is here they have no rights and if we enforce our immigration laws the language is a non-issue because they just go back home and come in legally the right way.

Well your illegal alien measures seem reasonable enough. I think it'd be great if all immigrants learned English, but what kind of country would it be if we forced them to?

So now I'm just interested in your version of what an assimilation process is like. Is that like free English education for adults at a community college or something?

Jenson71
03-06-2011, 09:56 PM
By the way, even illegal aliens have rights, sportsshrink. And you should recognize that.

Chiefshrink
03-06-2011, 10:18 PM
Well your illegal alien measures seem reasonable enough. I think it'd be great if all immigrants learned English, but what kind of country would it be if we forced them to?

So now I'm just interested in your version of what an assimilation process is like. Is that like free English education for adults at a community college or something?

Forcing? Who said anything about forcing? I would never force any American citizen or legal immigrant against their 1st Amend rights if they wanted to speak in their native tongue.

Limiting accommodation though puts the "legal" into a position of either "sh**(do the hard work of assimilating to be a productive American citizen) or get off the pot"(have a difficult American citizenry at their own peril or go back home). "Nudging" is the term Cass Sustein uses. You know Cass don't you? That's Obama's boy that sees mankind as unnecessary to this earth. He likes to "Nudge" the population towards his worldview which is very scary.

But I use the term "Nudging" in a healthy way when it comes to putting the "legal immigrant" on notice. Either do the hard work and assimilate or make yourself miserable living here by not assimilating.

Free? Why in the hell should we offer free English classes at the taxpayer's or employer's expense? That's:BS: We need to use your boy Obama's term "investing". It's very simple Jenson. When somebody has (as Obama's term )"skin in the game" then people will be much more responsive and productive:thumb:

Jenson71
03-06-2011, 10:22 PM
So what do you mean by "limiting accommodation?"

Chiefshrink
03-06-2011, 10:22 PM
By the way, even illegal aliens have rights, sportsshrink. And you should recognize that.

Ahhhhhhhhhh yes we are all God's children:thumb: But Romans chapter 13 needs to be honored as well as the Apostle Paul writes who was inspired by the Holy Spirit who is God.:thumb:

Jenson71
03-06-2011, 10:24 PM
Ahhhhhhhhhh yes we are all God's children:thumb: But Romans chapter 13 needs to be honored as well as the Apostle Paul writes who was inspired by the Holy Spirit who is God.:thumb:

No, I'm not making a theological argument. I'm saying that even illegal aliens have due process rights by our Constitution.

Chiefshrink
03-06-2011, 10:50 PM
So what do you mean by "limiting accommodation?"

Well take for instance all the packaged products and their instructions inside are written in Spanish as well. That is an added extra expense to the manufacturer but it is worth it because they know that the legal and illegal population that refuses to assimilate is HUUUUUUUUUUGE!!! It's a no brainer:rolleyes: I also get that other languages are on there as well but that is because we sell abroad and that is understandable. But I'm talking just those products sold here in America not what is shipped abroad.

Now obviously we can't legislate against that being done because then you violate "free speech". But if we seriously go after the "employers" and significantly cutoff the American jobflow to "illegals" and enforce our immigration laws all the way around then the "illegal Hispanic population" will be dramatically reduced thus manufacturers will not be able to justify the cost of bi-lingual accommodation on every damn thing we produce and sell here in America.

But until our Fed Govt enforces the immigration laws then the natural law of Capitalism selling to all markets will prevail and you can't blame them. Capitalism is color blind when in a truly free society but it has serious consequences on the flip side to a country when that country ignores it's own immigration laws.

SNR
03-06-2011, 11:21 PM
I think it's awful that some people in this country aren't speaking English. Some of them don't even know how to properly use quotation marks.

What do you think of that, sportsshrink? Shall we deport the citizens who don't know about punctuation? What do you say? I think it's a great idea

Chiefshrink
03-06-2011, 11:33 PM
I think it's awful that some people in this country aren't speaking English. Some of them don't even know how to properly use quotation marks.

What do you think of that, sportsshrink? Shall we deport the citizens who don't know about punctuation? What do you say? I think it's a great idea

I'll admit punctuation was never my strong suit and still remains that way I'm afraid.:rolleyes: But I am a legal citizen and I speak english so that counts for a helluva alot.:p

I just wish we could deport anti-American Marxist Liberal citizens who don't have our country's best interest at heart. What do you say? I think it's a great idea to ship them to China,Russia,Iran,Egypt,Libya...etc Think you could survive over there SNR?

I bet you would fit right in!:thumb:

Jenson71
03-07-2011, 04:46 AM
Well take for instance all the packaged products and their instructions inside are written in Spanish as well. That is an added extra expense to the manufacturer but it is worth it because they know that the legal and illegal population that refuses to assimilate is HUUUUUUUUUUGE!!! It's a no brainer:rolleyes:

I think it's mostly protection against tort claims, not because immigrants refuse to assimilate.

SNR
03-07-2011, 08:37 AM
I'll admit punctuation was never my strong suit and still remains that way I'm afraid.:rolleyes: But I am a legal citizen and I speak english so that counts for a helluva alot.:p

I just wish we could deport anti-American Marxist Liberal citizens who don't have our country's best interest at heart. What do you say? I think it's a great idea to ship them to China,Russia,Iran,Egypt,Libya...etc Think you could survive over there SNR?

I bet you would fit right in!:thumb:I've been to China, actually. I had a blast. I wouldn't mind being deported there if it were the right area of the country. It would have to be south China, and away from one of the overly large population centers like Guangzhou or Shanghai. Suzhou would be a nice place to hang out. That way I could be my surly anti-American commie marxist fascist hippy greenie moonbat liberal jingoist self and plot different ways to put American children on spikes and eat them while they're still screaming.

patteeu
03-07-2011, 10:07 AM
This whole English only stuff is pretty ridiculous. You think most immigrants don't want to learn? It's difficult to do this when you are working two or three jobs to make enough money for your family both in America and back home. Also, while ESL classes are offered in most communities that would require them, there are long waiting lists to even make it in the class.

Further, how is it that difficult to just ignore the other languages on signs and whatnot. How is it "Destroying America"? That is just silly.

It's not that hard to learn. I did it when I was a toddler. What's silly is being offended by the idea that we should ask people who want to come here to do some marginal assimilating.

We should give preference in our immigration determinations to those who already speak English and we should expect those immigrants who don't to learn it within a reasonable period of time.

dirk digler
03-07-2011, 10:45 AM
My question to you is: isn't that already the case? Doesn't the United States government conduct official business in English?

That is a good question. If you go the IRS's site they have w-4 forms in Spanish. Heck probably every public form the government makes they have an English one and Spanish one.

I do believe that immigrants (legal and illegal) that come to this country learn how to speak and read English proficiently.

Jenson71
03-07-2011, 10:49 AM
We should give preference in our immigration determinations to those who already speak English and we should expect those immigrants who don't to learn it within a reasonable period of time.

What if they don't? Should we send them back, or should we just look at them in disgust when they're speaking their barbarian tongue?

Jenson71
03-07-2011, 10:57 AM
Obviously, who doesn't want everyone to speak English? Yeah, it'd be great if everyone in the country knew English. But so what if they don't? What if they just want to speak their native tongue, keep their native culture, eat their native food, and wear their native clothes? As long as they follow American law, I don't care. I think it would be kind of cool, actually, to have more diversity. There used to be diverse neighborhoods and towns, but now it's a Wal-Mart everywhere, a McDonalds everywhere, and a Subway for the healthier option.

Great!

So we've lost some things. It's more understandable that Italy wants Italy. France wants France. Russia wants Russia. But we're the country of diversity, opportunity, freedom to live as we choose. We shouldn't be mandated to speak English, and we shouldn't be looked down upon if we don't want to learn it. If I just want to sit on my porch and read a Mexican newspaper and eat burritos with my Mexican friends, and wear a poncho, let me do it.

patteeu
03-07-2011, 10:58 AM
What if they don't? Should we send them back, or should we just look at them in disgust when they're speaking their barbarian tongue?

We should send them back.

patteeu
03-07-2011, 10:59 AM
Obviously, who doesn't want everyone to speak English? Yeah, it'd be great if everyone in the country knew English. But so what if they don't? What if they just want to speak their native tongue, keep their native culture, eat their native food, and wear their native clothes? As long as they follow American law, I don't care. I think it would be kind of cool, actually, to have more diversity. There used to be diverse neighborhoods and towns, but now it's a Wal-Mart everywhere, a McDonalds everywhere, and a Subway for the healthier option.

Great!

If they want all that, they can stay in their native land.

Jenson71
03-07-2011, 11:01 AM
If they want all that, they can stay in their native land.

There's more to America than Wal-Mart and McDonalds, and it's the opportunity, freedom, and law that protects those options.

Jenson71
03-07-2011, 11:02 AM
We should send them back.

It would be cheaper to execute them.

Jaric
03-07-2011, 11:04 AM
If I ever went to Italy, I would assume the people there would speak Italian and that if I wanted to communicate with them (which at a basic level is neccessary) I should probably learn enough Italian to get whatever point across I needed to make. If I choose to speak English with my English speaking friends, so be it.

I really don't understand why this is so complicated. In America, the language we speak is English. If you want to live in America, you should probably learn how to speak English.

patteeu
03-07-2011, 11:18 AM
There's more to America than Wal-Mart and McDonalds, and it's the opportunity, freedom, and law that protects those options.

We don't need to import people who don't really want to adopt the fundamental underpinnings of our culture in order to enjoy diversity beyond McDonalds and Walmart. I'm perfectly fine having a local mom & pop Chinese restaurant in my neighborhood as long as the people running it can speak English and otherwise agree to assimilate.

I'll chalk your opinion up to the naiveté of youth, but the truth is that there are plenty of old people who have similar idiotic ideas about diversity even in the face of the balkanization of many European communities who are further down that path than we are.

patteeu
03-07-2011, 11:19 AM
It would be cheaper to execute them.

It would be cheaper to do a better job up front. Don't let people who can't speak English come here unless they have a critical job skill that we can't produce domestically. If you want to emigrate to the US, learn English and demonstrate your desire to be a part of what we are.

Jenson71
03-07-2011, 11:24 AM
We don't need to import people who don't really want to adopt the fundamental underpinnings of our culture in order to enjoy diversity beyond McDonalds and Walmart. I'm perfectly fine having a local mom & pop Chinese restaurant in my neighborhood as long as the people running it can speak English and otherwise agree to assimilate.

I'll chalk your opinion up to the naiveté of youth, but the truth is that there are plenty of old people who have similar idiotic ideas about diversity even in the face of the balkanization of many European communities who are further down that path than we are.

English is not the fundamental underpinning of our culture. Freedom, work ethic, equality, self-government, and liberty is.

I'll chalk your opinion up to the musty stench of banality. And there are a ton of young people that think everyone should come to America and become a white anglo saxon protestant, or at least speak like one.

But the truth is, communities should be able to form their own identity, and not be morally pressured into adapting against their will the culture and customs of others, despite a move for political or financial reasons. But by all means, adapt if you want. But by all means, live your life the way you want, according to law.

Jaric
03-07-2011, 11:27 AM
English is not the fundamental underpinning of our culture. Freedom, work ethic, equality, self-government, and liberty is.

I'll chalk your opinion up to the musty stench of banality. And there are a ton of young people that think everyone should come to America and become a white anglo saxon protestant, or at least speak like one.

But the truth is, communities should be able to form their own identity, and not be morally pressured into adapting against their will the culture and customs of others, despite a move for political or financial reasons. But by all means, adapt if you want. But by all means, live your life the way you want, according to law.

If they don't want to learn the language the rest of us speak, then they really don't have any right to complain when no one understands them.

And if they are that opposed to the way we do things, why are they coming here in the first place?

Jenson71
03-07-2011, 11:29 AM
It would be cheaper to do a better job up front. Don't let people who can't speak English come here unless they have a critical job skill that we can't produce domestically. If you want to emigrate to the US, learn English and demonstrate your desire to be a part of what we are.

Perhaps we all had some misunderstanding that America was the land of the free. Now we know that it's just some big governmental program to create weapons. That's "what we are." Join the program comrades! Or turn back now!

Otter
03-07-2011, 11:30 AM
It would be cheaper to do a better job up front. Don't let people who can't speak English come here unless they have a critical job skill that we can't produce domestically. If you want to emigrate to the US, learn English and demonstrate your desire to be a part of what we are.

It's ironic that these people want the laws of health care and equal opportunity among a thousand others observed but for some reason when it comes to the United States of America's immigration laws it's a free for all that you can take or leave as they see fit.

That's called "hypocrisy" in case those in question didn't know.

Referring to the undertone of previous posts.

patteeu
03-07-2011, 11:32 AM
English is not the fundamental underpinning of our culture. Freedom, work ethic, equality, self-government, and liberty is.

A common language might be the most important aspect a unified culture. Some day I hope you grow to realize this. If not, I hope you find yourself in an ever shrinking minority.

Jenson71
03-07-2011, 11:33 AM
If they don't want to learn the language the rest of us speak, then they really don't have any right to complain when no one understands them.

And if they are that opposed to the way we do things, why are they coming here in the first place?

Most immigrants move to the United States to get a better life, perhaps financially, or politically, or just to survive.

It seems to be some real myths going on that 1) immigrants are opposed to America 2) immigrants think they are going to get free entitlements for the rest of their lives 3) they are too lazy or anti-American to learn English

patteeu
03-07-2011, 11:34 AM
Perhaps we all had some misunderstanding that America was the land of the free. Now we know that it's just some big governmental program to create weapons. That's "what we are." Join the program comrades! Or turn back now!

We won't be the land of the free very long if we don't preserve our American culture. Maintaining a common language is a big part of that. Defending the borders from an invasion of those who would choose not to assimilate is another.

patteeu
03-07-2011, 11:36 AM
Most immigrants move to the United States to get a better life, perhaps financially, or politically, or just to survive.

It seems to be some real myths going on that 1) immigrants are opposed to America 2) immigrants think they are going to get free entitlements for the rest of their lives 3) they are too lazy or anti-American to learn English

The biggest myth of all is that wanting to move to the US for a better life, financially or politically, is enough. If they don't want to move here to become American, we don't want them. It's a melting pot, not a trash heap.

Jenson71
03-07-2011, 11:36 AM
America = where the only good immigrant is one who either votes for military spending or helps cast shells for a nickle.

Otter
03-07-2011, 11:37 AM
A common language might be the most important aspect a unified culture. Some day I hope you grow to realize this. If not, I hope you find yourself in an ever shrinking minority.

It would be neat to see what kind of work I could get done in a day if my programmers only spoke Spanish and Indian. I guess it would require having a job and deadlines to realize that little oversight in the argument however.

Jaric
03-07-2011, 11:39 AM
Most immigrants move to the United States to get a better life, perhaps financially, or politically, or just to survive.


Wow, they get all that shit? If that's the case, I don't think it's too much to ask for them to learn the language the rest of us speak. Seems like a pretty fair trade off to me.

If I was feeling oppressed and Mexico offerred all that to me, I'm pretty sure I would make the effort to learn Spanish before moving there.

patteeu
03-07-2011, 11:42 AM
I'm curious what it is about the idea of requiring English that bothers Jenson71. Is it as simple as the fact that it's traditionally a position of the left so he feels like he should defend it?

Jenson71, do you have a concrete reason for wanting more diversity (and the accompanying degradation of understanding)?

Saul Good
03-07-2011, 11:45 AM
Most immigrants move to the United States to get a better life, perhaps financially, or politically, or just to survive.

So they are coming to get all of these things, but what are they willing to give?

Otter
03-07-2011, 11:53 AM
So they are coming to get all of these things, but what are they willing to give?

Their hard work that will lead to success and prosperity of course. But wait, they don't know English and you would have to be an evil tea bagger to ask them to require them to learn English.

So where do they work and how do they prosper?

They don't they become a micro-community or sub-culture which fragments society and limits their options for success and prosperity. But hey, at least we weren't such dickheads to make them learn the language of the country they just immigrated to right?

And telling them they need to learn English is the same as telling them they can't speak _____________.

****ing morons.

dirk digler
03-07-2011, 12:35 PM
English is not the fundamental underpinning of our culture. Freedom, work ethic, equality, self-government, and liberty is.

I'll chalk your opinion up to the musty stench of banality. And there are a ton of young people that think everyone should come to America and become a white anglo saxon protestant, or at least speak like one.

But the truth is, communities should be able to form their own identity, and not be morally pressured into adapting against their will the culture and customs of others, despite a move for political or financial reasons. But by all means, adapt if you want. But by all means, live your life the way you want, according to law.

Any immigrant that comes to live here needs to learn English so they can assimilate to our country.

No one is asking them to throw away their culture or not practice it. They should just learn English so they can communicate with the rest of us Americans.

Jenson71
03-07-2011, 01:08 PM
I'm curious what it is about the idea of requiring English that bothers Jenson71. Is it as simple as the fact that it's traditionally a position of the left so he feels like he should defend it?

Jenson71, do you have a concrete reason for wanting more diversity (and the accompanying degradation of understanding)?

I don't like the idea of forcing people to know English. That's not freedom. If they don't want to be rich businessmen, that's their prorogative. If they do, then they'll learn English. It's not easy to be 40 years old, take care of a family, go to work, and learn a new language. I don't think they shoudl be penalized for not being able to reach that.

Jenson71
03-07-2011, 01:08 PM
So they are coming to get all of these things, but what are they willing to give?

What do you think they should give?

Jenson71
03-07-2011, 01:10 PM
Their hard work that will lead to success and prosperity of course. But wait, they don't know English and you would have to be an evil tea bagger to ask them to require them to learn English.

So where do they work and how do they prosper?

They don't they become a micro-community or sub-culture which fragments society and limits their options for success and prosperity. But hey, at least we weren't such dickheads to make them learn the language of the country they just immigrated to right?

And telling them they need to learn English is the same as telling them they can't speak _____________.

****ing morons.

What's wrong with becoming a micro-community or sub-culture? What's wrong with just living a peaceful life alongside your neighbors? Maybe you fish or have a community garden, and you make furniture from actual oak trees, and that's what you want to do.

Jenson71
03-07-2011, 01:13 PM
How do you guys feel about the lack of Amish assimiliation? Does that bother you? Cause maybe it's just me, but I think it's an alright thing for them to do.

Jaric
03-07-2011, 01:22 PM
I don't like the idea of forcing people to know English. That's not freedom. If they don't want to be rich businessmen, that's their prorogative. If they do, then they'll learn English. It's not easy to be 40 years old, take care of a family, go to work, and learn a new language. I don't think they shoudl be penalized for not being able to reach that.

They are going to be. Being able to communicate with each other is one of the most basic levels of human interaction. If they refuse to learn english, they should be prepared for the consequences. That's part of freedom.

dirk digler
03-07-2011, 01:30 PM
I don't like the idea of forcing people to know English. That's not freedom. If they don't want to be rich businessmen, that's their prorogative. If they do, then they'll learn English. It's not easy to be 40 years old, take care of a family, go to work, and learn a new language. I don't think they shoudl be penalized for not being able to reach that.

One of the requirements to get citizenship is that you have to learn and speak English. Do you have a problem with this?

patteeu
03-07-2011, 01:57 PM
I don't like the idea of forcing people to know English. That's not freedom. If they don't want to be rich businessmen, that's their prorogative. If they do, then they'll learn English. It's not easy to be 40 years old, take care of a family, go to work, and learn a new language. I don't think they shoudl be penalized for not being able to reach that.

No one is talking about forcing anyone to learn English. It's their choice.

patteeu
03-07-2011, 02:01 PM
How do you guys feel about the lack of Amish assimiliation? Does that bother you? Cause maybe it's just me, but I think it's an alright thing for them to do.

I wouldn't be anxious to bring a foreign group similar to the Amish here via immigration. But since they're already here and already share much of our culture including the English language, I don't have any problem with them.

Otter
03-07-2011, 02:05 PM
What's wrong with becoming a micro-community or sub-culture? What's wrong with just living a peaceful life alongside your neighbors? Maybe you fish or have a community garden, and you make furniture from actual oak trees, and that's what you want to do.

How do they pay their taxes? Or are they never going to need a hospital, police, sewage, running water, electricity, use the roads etc? Where do they shit when they're done eating? Remember all those pesky zoning and sanitary living conditions our government puts on it's people?

Jenson, I don't have any problem with you but you're head is in the clouds as what makes things go come Monday Morning in the real world. I know, I know...you're not. It's everyone else telling you that you are that is wrong.

philfree
03-07-2011, 02:13 PM
If you can't ask for it in English then you get no welfare check! Haha I bet they knew that part of the language coming in.


PhilFree:arrow:

Saul Good
03-07-2011, 02:30 PM
What do you think they should give?

I think they should give the time and energy required in order to assimilate into our culture at some level.

Jenson71
03-07-2011, 02:31 PM
They are going to be. Being able to communicate with each other is one of the most basic levels of human interaction. If they refuse to learn english, they should be prepared for the consequences. That's part of freedom.

Obviously, there is the consequence of not being able to speak English if they don't learn English. However, I'm thinking of a neighborhood where everyone speaks Russian or something. They are able to interact with each other. Are they limited, sure, but that's their issue they can deal with. I don't find the possible benefits of 'getting outside the neighborhood to talk to me' as outweighing the costs of mandatory English to live here and enjoy the freedoms of America.

Jenson71
03-07-2011, 02:32 PM
One of the requirements to get citizenship is that you have to learn and speak English. Do you have a problem with this?

No problem, because it's a very small amount, enough to pass a test, and the citizenship service can provide you with help for it.

Jenson71
03-07-2011, 02:34 PM
No one is talking about forcing anyone to learn English. It's their choice.

Just so we're clear: We're talking about requiring English as an element of citizenship.

Saul Good
03-07-2011, 02:35 PM
Obviously, there is the consequence of not being able to speak English if they don't learn English. However, I'm thinking of a neighborhood where everyone speaks Russian or something. They are able to interact with each other. Are they limited, sure, but that's their issue they can deal with. I don't find the possible benefits of 'getting outside the neighborhood to talk to me' as outweighing the costs of mandatory English to live here and enjoy the freedoms of America.

What SHOULD we require in order to let immigrants into our country?

Saul Good
03-07-2011, 02:35 PM
Just so we're clear: We're talking about requiring English as an element of citizenship.

Are we forcing people to become citizens?

Jenson71
03-07-2011, 02:36 PM
I wouldn't be anxious to bring a foreign group similar to the Amish here via immigration. But since they're already here and already share much of our culture including the English language, I don't have any problem with them.

So a Spanish group that wants the same thing is useless to you. What about a group of Spanish monks whose monastery was destroyed by the Mexican government. What's their status in patteeuAmerica?

Jenson71
03-07-2011, 02:38 PM
How do they pay their taxes? Or are they never going to need a hospital, police, sewage, running water, electricity, use the roads etc? Where do they shit when they're done eating? Remember all those pesky zoning and sanitary living conditions our government puts on it's people?

Jenson, I don't have any problem with you but you're head is in the clouds as what makes things go come Monday Morning in the real world. I know, I know...you're not. It's everyone else telling you that you are that is wrong.

LMAO You do realize that I'm arguing mainly for the status quo, correct? As in, if my head is in the clouds, then where the hell are all you at?

Saul Good
03-07-2011, 02:38 PM
So a Spanish group that wants the same thing is useless to you. What about a group of Spanish monks whose monastery was destroyed by the Mexican government. What's their status in patteeuAmerica?

If a group wants to be completely isolated, why can't they do it in their own country?

As far as the Spanish monks go, I wouldn't be against requiring them to speak English before making them citizens.

Saul Good
03-07-2011, 02:39 PM
LMAO You do realize that I'm arguing mainly for the status quo, correct? As in, if my head is in the clouds, then where the hell are all you at?

The status quo is really working out well.

Jenson71
03-07-2011, 02:39 PM
If you can't ask for it in English then you get no welfare check! Haha I bet they knew that part of the language coming in.


PhilFree:arrow:

Hiyo! Love that 'immigrants are lazy' mantra.

Jenson71
03-07-2011, 02:42 PM
I think they should give the time and energy required in order to assimilate into our culture at some level.

I think the current requirements adequately satisfy time and energy elements you want.

How do you measure assimilation, Saul?

Saul Good
03-07-2011, 02:43 PM
I think the current requirements adequately satisfy time and energy elements you want.

How do you measure assimilation, Saul?

I would start with something really basic. Something like, I don't know, being able to communicate at a minimal level in the prevailing language.

Saul Good
03-07-2011, 02:44 PM
Hiyo! Love that 'immigrants are lazy' mantra.

I couldn't find anything regarding laziness in his post. Did I miss something?

philfree
03-07-2011, 02:46 PM
Hiyo! Love that 'immigrants are lazy' mantra.


The ones who aren't lazy probably take the time to learn the language.


PhilFree:arrow:

Jenson71
03-07-2011, 02:46 PM
If a group wants to be completely isolated, why can't they do it in their own country?

As far as the Spanish monks go, I wouldn't be against requiring them to speak English before making them citizens.

Why can't they do it in their own country? I guess because they're not allowed to? Or they can't do it well enough?

What level of English do the Spanish monks need in order for them to be assimilated?

Isn't it weird that you're going to require them to learn English for so much, just so they can go back to their monastery in the hills of Kentucky to speak Spanish? That pretty much is the definition of useless and inefficiency.

Jenson71
03-07-2011, 02:47 PM
The status quo is really working out well.

*grumble grumble*

Jenson71
03-07-2011, 02:47 PM
I would start with something really basic. Something like, I don't know, being able to communicate at a minimal level in the prevailing language.

Minimal level like what?

Saul Good
03-07-2011, 02:48 PM
Isn't it weird that you're going to require them to learn English for so much, just so they can go back to their monastery in the hills of Kentucky to speak Spanish? That pretty much is the definition of useless and inefficiency.

Then they bring nothing of value to our country, and they don't need to be here in the first place.

Saul Good
03-07-2011, 02:49 PM
Minimal level like what?

I read something about some other country doing something similar. It went something like this:


Italy makes immigrants speak Italian
By FRANCES D'EMILIO
ASSOCIATED PRESS


Svetlana Cojochru feels insulted.

The Moldovan has lived here seven years as a nanny to Italian kids and caregiver to the elderly, but in order to stay she's had to prove her language skills by writing a postcard to an imaginary friend and answering a fictional job ad.

"I feel like a guest," said Cojochru. She had just emerged from Beato Angelico middle school where she took a language test to comply with a new law requiring basic Italian proficiency for permanent residency permits following five years of legal residence.

Italy is the latest Western European country turning the screws on an expanding immigrant population by demanding language skills in exchange for work permits, or in some cases, citizenship. While enacted last year in the name of integration, these requirements also reflect anxiety that foreigners might dilute fiercely-prized national identity or even, especially in Britain's case, pose terror risks.

Some immigrant advocates worry that as harsh economic times make it harder for natives to keep jobs, such measures will become more a vehicle for intolerance than integration. Others say it's only natural that newcomers learn the language of their host nation, seeing it as a condition to ensure they can contribute to society.

So far, Italy is only giving a gentle turn to the screw. Cojochru and other test-takers described the exam as easy. No oral skills were tested.

In Austria, terms are tougher. There, where native speakers have been sometimes known to scold immigrant parents for not speaking proper German to their children, foreigners from outside the European Union need to prove they speak basic German within five years of receiving their first residency permit. Failure to do so can bring fines and jeopardize their right to stay.

The government argues that foreigners who master German can better integrate and help foster understanding across cultures. But, like in Italy, critics say it's a just a pretext for erecting barriers.

"The German language is increasingly being used as a marginalization tool," said Alev Korun, a Turkish-born member of the opposition Greens party who immigrated to Austria when she was 19.

Austria's Cabinet approved new rules requiring most immigrants to have elementary German skills before they even enter the country. They're part of a plan to create a new "red-white-red card" - the colors of the Austrian flag - for a work permit for qualified non-EU citizens aimed at filling gaps left by an aging work force. The legislation now goes to parliament for consideration.

Critics say requiring people to speak basic German before they set foot in Austria would be an unreasonable barrier for people from poor, rural areas who can't afford or access German classes.

"I think this is a very clear form of discrimination of certain type of immigrants," said Barbara Liegl, head of the Austrian anti-racism organization ZARA. "I see massive disadvantages for specific groups."

Terrorism pushed Britain to start strictly enforcing a requirement for English-language competency for prospective citizens. Three of the 2005 London suicide bombers were native Britons of Pakistani descent while the fourth was born in Jamaica.

Since 2005, would-be citizens and permanent residency holders have been asked to prove their command of "Britishness" by answering multiple choice questions, in English, on British history, culture and law, from explaining the meaning behind the fireworks-filled Guy Fawkes Night, to knowing which British courts use a jury system.

Britain's government has pledged to dramatically cut immigration, and the language requirement is effectively a tool to put a cap on the number of newcomers, said Sarah Mulley, an immigration expert at the Institute of Public Policy Research, a London think tank.

Home Secretary Theresa May, who aims to cut immigration to below 100,000 by 2015, said language tests will help weed out those who don't plan to contribute to British life. She has singled out spouses seeking marriage visas to join English-speaking partners as a particular concern.

"There is a concern about long-established communities in the U.K. who are not well integrated, for examples, some of the Pakistani (and) Bangladeshi communities, and that's largely linked to language limitation," Mulley added.

But Mohammed Reza, a Pakistani on a student visa who is studying for Britain's citizenship test, saw language as a path to integration.

"If I'm wearing traditional clothing on my way to the mosque, everyone on the tube (subway) looks at me funny and gives me wide berth," Reza said. "It's hard to beat the stereotype, but speaking English is probably the most important thing for fitting in. That's why I read as much as I can and try to learn the lingo here."

In Italy's case, there has been a much weaker tradition of immigration and no major Islamic terror attacks. Still, a strong spike in newcomers in recent years - along with the very newness of the immigration phenomenon - has fueled a xenophobia surge and boosted the popularity of the anti-immigrant Northern League, Premier Silvio Berlusconi's main coalition partner.

In 1990, immigrants numbered some 1.14 million out of Italy's then 56.7 million people, or about 2 percent, according to the state statistics bureau, ISTAT. At the start of this year, foreigners living in Italy amounted to 4.56 million of a total population of 60.6 million, or 7.5 percent, with immigrants' offspring accounting for an ever larger percentage of births in Italy.

Amid the trend, Northern League leader Umberto Bossi's influence in government has grown ever stronger, his rhetoric often laced with a racist tinge. Bossi once referred to immigrants as "bingo bongos" and has suggested that migrant smugglers' boats off Italy's shores be fired upon with cannons.

Last year, a Northern League lawmaker proposed extending the language requirement to all non-EU citizens who want to open a store or other business in Italy, but the move died in Parliament.

Bossi "represents the extreme" in stands on immigration, said Manuele Bacci, 38, one of a fourth generation of butchers running a shop in Florence's cavernous San Lorenzo covered market. The other extreme, he said, is absolutely no restrictions.

"We need to take a step toward them and they need to take a step toward us," was Bacci's formula for integration.

But many immigrants say they'll be rejected no matter how hard they try to fit in.

Cojochru, the Moldovan nanny and caregiver, hoped obtaining permanent residence would help her bring her two teen children to Italy; they live with her sister in Moldova, where wages are among the lowest in Europe. She was skeptical that the language requirement would encourage integration.

Italians always "see me as a foreigner," an outsider, despite her years in the country and despite her flawless command of the local language, she said.

http://www.seattlepi.com/national/11...ml?source=mypi

Jenson71
03-07-2011, 02:49 PM
I couldn't find anything regarding laziness in his post. Did I miss something?

Apparently you did. Read it, sleep on it, pray over it, we'll talk about it later.

Jenson71
03-07-2011, 02:51 PM
The ones who aren't lazy probably take the time to learn the language.


Again, it's hard to work a job, take care of a family, and learn a new language completely different from the one you've spent your life speaking.

Our great grandparents didn't come home from work and read English textbooks by the candlelight. Hell no. They came home from work and did fun stuff.

Saul Good
03-07-2011, 02:53 PM
Again, it's hard to work a job, take care of a family, and learn a new language completely different from the one you've spent your life speaking.

God forbid we should task those we allow into our country with some hard work in order to gain citizenship. Again I ask, what SHOULD we require?

Jenson71
03-07-2011, 02:53 PM
Then they bring nothing of value to our country, and they don't need to be here in the first place.

Maybe it's just me, but I think that's a far cry from the freedoms people thought America was all about. Instead of "give me your poor, your tired, etc." it's "Why should we let you in!? We need to maximize productivity! Are you good at math!?!"

Jenson71
03-07-2011, 02:55 PM
I read something about some other country doing something similar. It went something like this:]

Was that necessary? One, we have a ton of text to scroll over now. And two, and more importantly, that doesn't answer the question because your standards can vary from Italy's.

Use your head, Saul.

Jenson71
03-07-2011, 02:56 PM
God forbid we should task those we allow into our country with some hard work in order to gain citizenship. Again I ask, what SHOULD we require?

Again, I tell you, the current requirements I'm okay with. You guys want to change them to mandate some unidentified English level so the people will properly be assimilated like good Americans.

dirk digler
03-07-2011, 02:58 PM
Obviously, there is the consequence of not being able to speak English if they don't learn English. However, I'm thinking of a neighborhood where everyone speaks Russian or something. They are able to interact with each other. Are they limited, sure, but that's their issue they can deal with. I don't find the possible benefits of 'getting outside the neighborhood to talk to me' as outweighing the costs of mandatory English to live here and enjoy the freedoms of America.

I don't have a problem with a neighborhood like the one you described but they need to learn to read and speak English as well.

dirk digler
03-07-2011, 02:59 PM
Just so we're clear: We're talking about requiring English as an element of citizenship.

It is a requirement

Saul Good
03-07-2011, 03:01 PM
Again, I tell you, the current requirements I'm okay with. You guys want to change them to mandate some unidentified English level so the people will properly be assimilated like good Americans.

What are the current requirements?

Jenson71
03-07-2011, 03:01 PM
I don't have a problem with a neighborhood like the one you described but they need to learn to read and speak English as well.

And so my position is that they don't need much in order to be a citizen. Just the bare minimum. And your position is that they need to read and speak English on what level? Enough to converse fluently? Enough to ask for where the bathroom is at? Enough to pass a 8th grade English test? Enough to write a book?

Jenson71
03-07-2011, 03:03 PM
What are the current requirements?

To be eligible for naturalization under section 316(a) of the INA, an applicant must:

Be 18 or older

Be a permanent resident (green card holder) for at least 5 years immediately preceding the date of filing the Form N-400, Application for Naturalization

Have lived within the state, or USCIS district with jurisdiction over the applicant’s place of residence, for at least 3 months prior to the date of filing the application

Have continuous residence in the United States as a permanent resident for at least 5 years immediately preceding the date of the filing the application

Be physically present in the United States for at least 30 months out of the 5 years immediately preceding the date of filing the application

Reside continuously within the United States from the date of application for naturalization up to the time of naturalization

Be able to read, write, and speak English and have knowledge and an understanding of U.S. history and government (civics).

Be a person of good moral character, attached to the principles of the Constitution of the United States, and well disposed to the good order and happiness of the United States during all relevant periods under the law

ClevelandBronco
03-07-2011, 03:03 PM
I'd like to add that if family members have not turned against the democrat party within three generations, the family should be required to return from whence it came.

Jenson71
03-07-2011, 03:03 PM
It is a requirement

Yes, a small amount is required.

dirk digler
03-07-2011, 03:04 PM
And so my position is that they don't need much in order to be a citizen. Just the bare minimum. And your position is that they need to read and speak English on what level? Enough to converse fluently? Enough to ask for where the bathroom is at? Enough to pass a 8th grade English test? Enough to write a book?

Enough that the government doesn't need to print forms or signs in Spanish or any other language

philfree
03-07-2011, 03:05 PM
Again, it's hard to work a job, take care of a family, and learn a new language completely different from the one you've spent your life speaking.

Our great grandparents didn't come home from work and read English textbooks by the candlelight. Hell no. They came home from work and did fun stuff.


It used to be that immigrants wanted to come to our country so they could be Americans. They were proud to learn the language and proud to get thier citizenship. This doesn't seem to be the case anymore. It's more like they want our jobs, money and freedom but they don't want to be Americans. They don't want to adapt to our culture they'd rather just supplant theirs here. It's really not going to matter in another 30 years though because at that point we'll just be known as Latin America North.


PhilFree:arrow:

Jenson71
03-07-2011, 03:06 PM
Enough that the government doesn't need to print forms or signs in Spanish or any other language

So the test for you would be to give them a government form, and if they can read it, they have passed the English requirement?

dirk digler
03-07-2011, 03:09 PM
So the test for you would be to give them a government form, and if they can read it, they have passed the English requirement?

Sure

I can imagine sometime in the near future you will be driving down the road you will traffic signs in English and Spanish if it hasn't happened already.

RedNeckRaider
03-07-2011, 03:09 PM
I don't have a problem with a neighborhood like the one you described but they need to learn to read and speak English as well.

Oh that is just Jenson the great defender! He is one of the chosen intellectuals. He knows what is best for everyone and we should stop wasting our time thinking for ourselves. We are so simple we watch movies like Avatar and cannot conceive the outrageous racism against the blue people. Thankfully Jensen was handy to point that out to me also~

Jenson71
03-07-2011, 03:09 PM
It used to be that immigrants wanted to come to our country so they could be Americans. They were proud to learn the language and proud to get thier citizenship. This doesn't seem to be the case anymore. It's more like they want our jobs, money and freedom but they don't want to be Americans. They don't want to adapt to our culture they'd rather just supplant theirs here. It's really not going to matter in another 30 years though because at that point we'll just be known as Latin America North.


Oh, like this is a new claim. Let's be honest, philfree. People were saying the same things about our grandparents.

*grumble grumble* They're just a bunch of weasel redheaded Irish Catholics. They'll drink and rape our women.

I think you'll find that throughout American history, immigrants have come to this country in search of a better life, and they have really added to our country.

Except black people. They just made this place a bunch of crime and drugs.

But white people have done well. Mexicans are decent because they're not as dark as black people.

Saul Good
03-07-2011, 03:10 PM
Be able to read, write, and speak English and have knowledge and an understanding of U.S. history and government (civics).


So you DO think that they should have to be able to speak English then?

Jenson71
03-07-2011, 03:11 PM
Sure

I can imagine sometime in the near future you will be driving down the road you will traffic signs in English and Spanish if it hasn't happened already.

So basically, at your home country, you get someone to help you memorize the words and what they mean from a sent copy of the form for a month, and then you're good to go.

philfree
03-07-2011, 03:12 PM
Sure

I can imagine sometime in the near future you will be driving down the road you will traffic signs in English and Spanish if it hasn't happened already.

Just go in any government building and you'll see alot of signs in duplicate.


PhilFree:arrow:

Saul Good
03-07-2011, 03:13 PM
So basically, at your home country, you get someone to help you memorize the words and what they mean from a sent copy of the form for a month, and then you're good to go.

If you're an immigrant who wants to work the system, I guess that's what you would do. Of course, immigrants aren't trying to take advantage of our system, though.

Jenson71
03-07-2011, 03:13 PM
Oh that is just Jenson the great defender! He is one of the chosen intellectuals. He knows what is best for everyone and we should stop wasting our time thinking for ourselves. We are so simple we watch movies like Avatar and cannot conceive the outrageous racism against the blue people. Thankfully Jensen was handy to point that out to me also~

I haven't seen Avatar, and I wouldn't because that's "pop culture" which only morons like yourself see. I go to independent movies because I'm smart and I understand the jokes in them about Shakespeare's third mistress and Foucalt's post-modernist prison treatises. You don't get them though, and I don't want to take the time to explain them to you because you still wouldn't get them.

dirk digler
03-07-2011, 03:15 PM
So basically, at your home country, you get someone to help you memorize the words and what they mean from a sent copy of the form for a month, and then you're good to go.

I wouldn't make it that easy. Show up and take a test of random forms, signs or maybe simple sentences or something like that.

Jenson71
03-07-2011, 03:15 PM
So you DO think that they should have to be able to speak English then?

A bare minimum. Enough to pass the test. Fluency is not required. Being able to ask for help is a good start. I would require them to know the lineup of the 1927 Yankees.

philfree
03-07-2011, 03:15 PM
So basically, at your home country, you get someone to help you memorize the words and what they mean from a sent copy of the form for a month, and then you're good to go.

Ideally the new citizens will seek to improve and increase the english they speak because they want to be good Americans and part of the culture.


PhilFree:arrow:

dirk digler
03-07-2011, 03:15 PM
Just go in any government building and you'll see alot of signs in duplicate.


PhilFree:arrow:

IMHO that is a crock of BS

Jenson71
03-07-2011, 03:16 PM
If you're an immigrant who wants to work the system, I guess that's what you would do. Of course, immigrants aren't trying to take advantage of our system, though.

If you're an immigrant who wants to become a citizen, that's what you do. If you like wasting time and money and energy, then you would become fluent before moving.

RedNeckRaider
03-07-2011, 03:18 PM
I haven't seen Avatar, and I wouldn't because that's "pop culture" which only morons like yourself see. I go to independent movies because I'm smart and I understand the jokes in them about Shakespeare's third mistress and Foucalt's post-modernist prison treatises. You don't get them though, and I don't want to take the time to explain them to you because you still wouldn't get them.

Why were you on here posting about the racism against the blue people in the movie dipshit?

philfree
03-07-2011, 03:18 PM
IMHO that is a crock of BS

Yes it is.


PhilFree:arrow:

Jenson71
03-07-2011, 03:18 PM
I wouldn't make it that easy. Show up and take a test of random forms, signs or maybe simple sentences or something like that.

That seems like a better system.

Jenson71
03-07-2011, 03:19 PM
Ideally the new citizens will seek to improve and increase the english they speak because they want to be good Americans and part of the culture.


And we don't live in an ideal world, so what's the use of talking about it.

Saul Good
03-07-2011, 03:19 PM
If you're an immigrant who wants to become a citizen, that's what you do. If you like wasting time and money and energy, then you would become fluent before moving.

I don't think anyone is asking them to learn it before they move, at least I'm not. Your own post earlier shows that you must be a naturalized citizen for at least 5 years. Is that not enough time to learn to function in the native language of your new country?

I guess they should just work the system. It wouldn't be the first time that immigrants did that to us.

Jenson71
03-07-2011, 03:20 PM
Why were you on here posting about the racism against the blue people in the movie dipshit?

I don't think I was, dipshit. I've never seen the movie.

Jenson71
03-07-2011, 03:22 PM
I don't think anyone is asking them to learn it before they move, at least I'm not. Your own post earlier shows that you must be a naturalized citizen for at least 5 years. Is that not enough time to learn to function in the native language of your new country?

I guess they should just work the system. It wouldn't be the first time that immigrants did that to us.

Ideally, it would be enough time. And they would lose their accent and watch football and vote Republican. But shoot, some people, good Americans, good workers, good family members, probably end up not becoming all that fluent in English.

WV
03-07-2011, 03:22 PM
http://shafal.webs.com/learn-to-speak-english-main_Full.jpg

RedNeckRaider
03-07-2011, 03:23 PM
I don't think I was, dipshit. I've never seen the movie.

Yes scooter you were. You are the same pretentious little prick you have always been. Your narcissistic personality gives you the arrogance to assume what jokes I would get~

philfree
03-07-2011, 03:28 PM
And we don't live in an ideal world, so what's the use of talking about it.

If they don't want to be good Americans and speak the language then they should move back to where they cam from. At one point in time this country needed immigrants because there wasn't enough people. That's no longer the case so the immigration laws should be stricter. If they don't like it then they can go have their head cut off by some Mexican drug lord as far as I care.

PhilFree:arrow:

dirk digler
03-07-2011, 03:29 PM
That seems like a better system.

I can't tell if you are being sarcastic or not but I think something simple would work pretty good.

I am not asking them to be able to read a novel or anything like that.

Jenson71
03-07-2011, 03:29 PM
Yes scooter you were. You are the same pretentious little prick you have always been. Your narcissistic personality gives you the arrogance to assume what jokes I would get~

First, I think I would know better than you if I had seen a movie. Perhaps you're thinking of someone else, a different pretentious little prick. I can assure you, I have not seen Avatar and I can't debate whether the blue people were victims of racism or not.

Second, my post about independent movies and was dripping entirely in sarcasm after the part where I said "I have not seen Avatar."

Jaric
03-07-2011, 03:29 PM
Yes scooter you were. You are the same pretentious little prick you have always been. Your narcissistic personality gives you the arrogance to assume what jokes I would get~

Well be fair. He's smart. I know that because he told us he is.

Jenson71
03-07-2011, 03:32 PM
If they don't want to be good Americans and speak the language then they should move back to where they cam from. At one point in time this country needed immigrants because there wasn't enough people. That's no longer the case so the immigration laws should be stricter. If they don't like then they can go have their cut off by some Mexican drug lord as far as I care.

PhilFree:arrow:

I have a good faith presumption that people who spend the time and effort (and money) to become citizens actually do want to become "good Americans" even if they do vote Republican. Our country's principles of freedom, opportunity, and equality do not stop based on the population size. I know of no record from the Founders that say "We need to shut the borders after X amount of people."

Jenson71
03-07-2011, 03:34 PM
I can't tell if you are being sarcastic or not but I think something simple would work pretty good.

I am not asking them to be able to read a novel or anything like that.

I was not being sarcastic. It seems like an okay idea.

Jenson71
03-07-2011, 03:35 PM
Well be fair. He's smart. I know that because he told us he is.

Just like George Washington, I cannot tell a lie.

RedNeckRaider
03-07-2011, 03:38 PM
Well be fair. He's smart. I know that because he told us he is.

Maybe the arrogant little prick was drunk, but he was on here one night defending the blue people in that movie. Babbling some bullshit about how wrong it was for the white guy to become the hero or some shit LMAO Maybe he figured out how silly his stance was or was just too drunk to remember it~

Jenson71
03-07-2011, 03:42 PM
Maybe the arrogant little prick was drunk, but he was on here one night defending the blue people in that movie. Babbling some bullshit about how wrong it was for the white guy to become the hero or some shit LMAO Maybe he figured out how silly his stance was or was just too drunk to remember it~

Maybe you were drunk, or maybe you had a dream about this? I just searched "Avatar" under "Jenson71" posts, and nothing about the movie came up in the results.

Like I said, I haven't seen it. But now I know that the white guy becomes the hero. And I'm really pissed that you ruined it for me.

Saul Good
03-07-2011, 03:42 PM
Ideally, it would be enough time. And they would lose their accent and watch football and vote Republican. But shoot, some people, good Americans, good workers, good family members, probably end up not becoming all that fluent in English.

Yep, but we don't live in an ideal world. Just being able to get by in English will have to do for now.

Jenson71
03-07-2011, 03:44 PM
Yep, but we don't live in an ideal world. Just being able to get by in English will have to do for now.

Exactly, we don't live in an ideal world. So we should probably just get used to it if the Mexican people don't speak English as well as us.

RedNeckRaider
03-07-2011, 03:48 PM
Maybe you were drunk, or maybe you had a dream about this? I just searched "Avatar" under "Jenson71" posts, and nothing about the movie came up in the results.

Like I said, I haven't seen it. But now I know that the white guy becomes the hero. And I'm really pissed that you ruined it for me.

LMAO I do not remember the thread but it was not about the movie. My son and his wife were in town and wanted to see it and that is how I ended up watching a movie I had no interest in. Yes you were on here defending away and I called you out on how silly your stance was. It is cool I do not blame you for running for cover on that stance LMAO~

philfree
03-07-2011, 03:55 PM
I have a good faith presumption that people who spend the time and effort (and money) to become citizens actually do want to become "good Americans" even if they do vote Republican. Our country's principles of freedom, opportunity, and equality do not stop based on the population size. I know of no record from the Founders that say "We need to shut the borders after X amount of people."


At the rate this country is going our principles of freedom, opportunity, and equality isn't going to be for long. And I'm going to go out on a limb a say our founding fathers would require that immigrants learn the language.


PhilFree:arrow:

Jenson71
03-07-2011, 04:02 PM
LMAO I do not remember the thread but it was not about the movie. My son and his wife were in town and wanted to see it and that is how I ended up watching a movie I had no interest in. Yes you were on here defending away and I called you out on how silly your stance was. It is cool I do not blame you for running for cover on that stance LMAO~

I've done some other searches. This probably didn't happen. Did I leave you neg rep? Check your rep page. Maybe I left you some kind of rep.

Jenson71
03-07-2011, 04:03 PM
At the rate this country is going our principles of freedom, opportunity, and equality isn't going to be for long. And I'm going to go out on a limb a say our founding fathers would require that immigrants learn the language.


If only they had put together some sort of document that set up some sort of frame of government. And if only they had made it possible for them to enact some sort of law by passing through some sort of congressional body. Strange hypothetical world I just imagined.

philfree
03-07-2011, 04:10 PM
If only they had put together some sort of document that set up some sort of frame of government. And if only they had made it possible for them to enact some sort of law by passing through some sort of congressional body. Strange hypothetical world I just imagined.


That post didn't make you look smart like you had hoped.


PhilFree:arrow:

Jenson71
03-07-2011, 04:12 PM
That post didn't make you look smart like you had hoped.

You should have seen the post it was in response to. Yikes.

RedNeckRaider
03-07-2011, 04:29 PM
I've done some other searches. This probably didn't happen. Did I leave you neg rep? Check your rep page. Maybe I left you some kind of rep.

As far as neg rep I have no idea. I don't play that game. I have never given it to anyone. I would have to look and I will sometime. It happened I know and the fact you are playing the gosh can you find it game is fine. I am sure you are not...whatever. Defend on great defender lol~

patteeu
03-07-2011, 05:00 PM
Obviously, there is the consequence of not being able to speak English if they don't learn English. However, I'm thinking of a neighborhood where everyone speaks Russian or something. They are able to interact with each other. Are they limited, sure, but that's their issue they can deal with. I don't find the possible benefits of 'getting outside the neighborhood to talk to me' as outweighing the costs of mandatory English to live here and enjoy the freedoms of America.

Why should they enjoy the freedoms of America when there's someone else waiting in line who *is* willing to learn English? Do you think there's a shortage of people who want to come here? Do you think everyone who wants to come here should be welcomed with open arms or do you think limits on immigration in order to facilitate assimilation are reasonable?

patteeu
03-07-2011, 05:02 PM
I'd like to add that if family members have not turned against the democrat party within three generations, the family should be required to return from whence it came.

Good amendment. I vote aye.

patteeu
03-07-2011, 05:03 PM
Just so we're clear: We're talking about requiring English as an element of citizenship.

Yes, we should give people a choice. If they want to be admitted to the country they should choose to learn English. If they don't want to be admitted to the country enough to learn English, they should choose to stay home.

patteeu
03-07-2011, 05:04 PM
So a Spanish group that wants the same thing is useless to you. What about a group of Spanish monks whose monastery was destroyed by the Mexican government. What's their status in patteeuAmerica?

Are they willing to learn English? If not, maybe Spain will accept them.

patteeu
03-07-2011, 05:07 PM
Hiyo! Love that 'immigrants are lazy' mantra.

Not all immigrants are lazy, but we should try to filter out the ones who are too lazy and uncommitted to assimilation to bother learning English and let them stay home? We should open our arms to a reasonable number of go-getters who want to actually become Americans.

BucEyedPea
03-07-2011, 05:14 PM
English is doing just fine here in America. Immigrants that don't speak it are not a threat to that.
What I don't condone is all the Spanish/English bi-lingual catering to them including on anything we buy here now.
But forcing people to? Nope. Anyone claiming to be libertarian advocating such a thing is NO libertarian—not even with a small "l".

patteeu
03-07-2011, 05:18 PM
And so my position is that they don't need much in order to be a citizen. Just the bare minimum. And your position is that they need to read and speak English on what level? Enough to converse fluently? Enough to ask for where the bathroom is at? Enough to pass a 8th grade English test? Enough to write a book?

At a minimum, we should stop accommodating non-English speakers. Government forms and tests should be in English only. If they don't know enough English to get along at that level, then cya.

Newt Gingrich wrote a book a few years back that outlined his version of what he called a "Patriotic Immigration" policy. I don't know if he'd go as far as I would, but his heart is in the right place and it's a great start. Here (http://www.newt.org/issues/immigration%20) are a few of the things he suggests:

Specific citizenship reform measures for new legal immigrants should:

Replace bilingual education with intensive English instruction to help new Americans assimilate into our civilization, thus preserving our culture.
Return ballots to English language format, focus on English language literacy as a prerequisite of citizenship, and insist that dual citizens vote only in the United States and give up voting in their birth nation.

These principles were understood and accepted throughout history, which enabled us to absorb millions of immigrants and their children into the American way of life.

Rescind Executive Order 13166 requiring multilingualism in federal documents.
Require an American history test written in English for any legal immigrant who wishes to become a citizen and meets all qualification criteria.
Enforce the Oath of Allegiance by making its understanding and affirmation part of the citizenship test.
Focus federal funds on teaching American history and the principles of American civilization, and create specific programs to emphasize American heroes, including military heroes.
Provide in-depth English language and American history and civics training for new immigrants through a national program modeled after the highly successful "Ulpan Studies" program in Israel.

ClevelandBronco
03-07-2011, 05:21 PM
Good amendment. I vote aye.

Conveniently, I'm third generation.

mlyonsd
03-07-2011, 05:21 PM
I'm not a fan of the progressive tax system but if I were king I'd tax all immigrants at the highest level until they become citizens.

And oh yeah, to become a citizen immigrants should be forced to show a basic level of English in both writing and speaking. We spend too much money as a government making all of our literature in multiple languages.

BucEyedPea
03-07-2011, 05:28 PM
I'm not a fan of the progressive tax system but if I were king I'd tax all immigrants at the highest level until they become citizens.

And oh yeah, to become a citizen immigrants should be forced to show a basic level of English in both writing and speaking. We spend too much money as a government making all of our literature in multiple languages.

Isn't the test they take to become a citizen in English only? I hope so.

ClevelandBronco
03-07-2011, 05:47 PM
http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/uscis/menuitem.eb1d4c2a3e5b9ac89243c6a7543f6d1a/?vgnextoid=dd7ffe9dd4aa3210VgnVCM100000b92ca60aRCRD&vgnextchannel=dd7ffe9dd4aa3210VgnVCM100000b92ca60aRCRD

The Naturalization Test

One of the requirements for U.S. citizenship through naturalization is to take the naturalization test to demonstrate that you are able to read, write, and speak basic English and that you have a basic knowledge of U.S. history and government (also known as “civics”).

Once you have completed and submitted your Form N-400, Application for Naturalization, and you have had your fingerprints taken at a USCIS facility, you will receive an appointment for an interview. At your naturalization interview, you will be required to answer questions about your application and background. You will also take an English and civics test unless you qualify for an exemption or waiver.
English & Civics

During your interview, a USCIS officer will test your ability to read, write, and speak English and your knowledge of civics. You must read one sentence out of three sentences correctly in English, and you must write one sentence out of three sentences correctly in English. Your ability to speak English is determined during your interview on your naturalization application. Finally, you must answer 6 out of 10 civics questions correctly to achieve a passing score.

You will be given two opportunities to take the English and civics tests and to answer all questions relating to your naturalization application in English. If you fail any of the tests at your initial interview, you will be retested on the portion of the test that you failed (English or civics) between 60 and 90 days from the date of your initial interview. See 8 CFR 312.5(a) and 335.3(b).
If You Don’t Pass

If an applicant fails the English and/or civics test during the first examination, the applicant will be required to take the same version of the test, old or new, when the applicant is retested, even if the retest is scheduled on or after October 1, 2009.
Study Materials

We have developed a variety of study materials to help you learn more about U.S. civics (history and government) as you prepare for the naturalization test. See the “Study Materials for the Naturalization Test” link to the right.
Exemptions from English & Civics Requirements

For information on exceptions or modifications to the English and civics requirements for naturalization, see the “Exceptions & Accommodations” link under “Citizenship by Naturalization” to the left. (follows)

http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/uscis/menuitem.eb1d4c2a3e5b9ac89243c6a7543f6d1a/?vgnextoid=ffe2a3ac86aa3210VgnVCM100000b92ca60aRCRD&vgnextchannel=ffe2a3ac86aa3210VgnVCM100000b92ca60aRCRD

Exceptions & Accommodations

There are exceptions and modifications to the naturalization requirements that are available to those who qualify. USCIS also provides accommodations for individuals with disabilities.

See the “A Guide to Naturalization” link to the right for more information.

English Language Exemptions

You Are Exempt From The English Language Requirement, But Are Still Required To Take The Civics Test If You Are:

* Age 50 or older at the time of filing for naturalization and have lived as a permanent resident (green card holder) in the United States for 20 years (commonly referred to as the “50/20” exception).
OR
* Age 55 or older at the time of filing for naturalization and have lived as a permanent resident in the United States for 15 years (commonly referred to as the “55/15” exception).

Note: Even if you qualify for the “50/20” or “55/15” English language exceptions listed above, you must still take the civics test. You may be permitted to take the civics test in your native language, but only if your command of spoken English is insufficient to conduct a valid examination in English. If you are age 65 or older and have been a permanent resident for at least 20 years at the time of filing for naturalization, you will be given special consideration regarding the civics requirement.

Medical Disability Exceptions to English and Civics

You may be eligible for an exception to the English and civics naturalization requirements if you are unable to comply with these requirements because of a physical or developmental disability or a mental impairment.

To request this exception, submit Form N-648, Medical Certification for Disability Exceptions. This form must be completed by a licensed medical or osteopathic doctor, or licensed clinical psychologist.

Continuous Residence Exceptions

If you are engaged in certain kinds of overseas employment you may be eligible for an exception to the continuous residence requirement. For more information see the link to the right, “Continuous Residence and Physical Presence Requirements for Naturalization.”

Disability Accommodations

Under Section 504 of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973, we provide accommodations or modifications for applicants with physical or mental impairments that make it difficult for them to complete the naturalization process. Applicants are encouraged to list their needs in the space provided on Form N-400.

Oath of Allegiance

After applying for naturalization and in order to be naturalized, you must take an oath of allegiance in a public ceremony. The law allows for certain modifications to the Oath of Allegiance.

Jaric
03-07-2011, 05:52 PM
Maybe the arrogant little prick was drunk, but he was on here one night defending the blue people in that movie. Babbling some bullshit about how wrong it was for the white guy to become the hero or some shit LMAO Maybe he figured out how silly his stance was or was just too drunk to remember it~

Well, you will have that.

:shrug:

EDIT: By the way, if the blue people want to move here, they're going to have to learn English too.

Jenson71
03-07-2011, 06:10 PM
As far as neg rep I have no idea. I don't play that game. I have never given it to anyone. I would have to look and I will sometime. It happened I know and the fact you are playing the gosh can you find it game is fine. I am sure you are not...whatever. Defend on great defender lol~

That's great, but I may have given you positive or negative rep, dipshit.

Jenson71
03-07-2011, 06:15 PM
Why should they enjoy the freedoms of America when there's someone else waiting in line who *is* willing to learn English? Do you think there's a shortage of people who want to come here? Do you think everyone who wants to come here should be welcomed with open arms or do you think limits on immigration in order to facilitate assimilation are reasonable?

I guess there probably should be limits, and yeah, the language might be one way to filter that. Also, job skills and education.

The Mad Crapper
03-07-2011, 06:28 PM
That's great, but I may have given you positive or negative rep, dipshit.

<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/Kpcr1i1UEcw" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

RedNeckRaider
03-08-2011, 05:20 AM
That's great, but I may have given you positive or negative rep, dipshit.

As I said I will look sometime scooter. It really matters little to me as I know you were full of shit on the issue and so do you...dipshit~

patteeu
03-08-2011, 08:07 AM
English is doing just fine here in America. Immigrants that don't speak it are not a threat to that.
What I don't condone is all the Spanish/English bi-lingual catering to them including on anything we buy here now.
But forcing people to? Nope. Anyone claiming to be libertarian advocating such a thing is NO libertarian—not even with a small "l".

This misconception has already been addressed. No one is being forced to learn English. I'm not the kind of libertarian that believes in open borders. Maybe you are. That's just something else we can disagree on. :shrug:

patteeu
03-08-2011, 08:07 AM
Yes scooter you were. You are the same pretentious little prick you have always been. Your narcissistic personality gives you the arrogance to assume what jokes I would get~

You might be thinking of Reaper16. His username has a similar format, he takes pride in being known as a pretentious little prick (I mean that in a good way), and he was definitely leading the local "Avatar was racist" protest.

Jenson71
03-08-2011, 08:51 AM
As I said I will look sometime scooter. It really matters little to me as I know you were full of shit on the issue and so do you...dipshit~

Yeah, I searched and it was Reaper. Dipshit. Sometimes I screw you up with Midnight_Vulture in my mind, but if I'm going to continuously accuse you of something, even after being checked on it, I'm going to do my damn homework instead of mouseshitting all over people's reputations.

BucEyedPea
03-08-2011, 09:13 AM
This misconception has already been addressed. No one is being forced to learn English. I'm not the kind of libertarian that believes in open borders. Maybe you are. That's just something else we can disagree on. :shrug:

Sorry strawman. I never said anything about open borders which is a firm libertarian position. Again, I am not a libertarian and I am not for open borders.

FYI I wasn't responding to your post just because it preceded mine and didn't read the whole thread either. I was responding to the title of the thread and stating my own opinion on the idea of making someone learn English using the force of law. All we have to do is not cater to another language officially. The second generations will adapt and learn the language in due time.

RedNeckRaider
03-08-2011, 09:27 AM
Yeah, I searched and it was Reaper. Dipshit. Sometimes I screw you up with Midnight_Vulture in my mind, but if I'm going to continuously accuse you of something, even after being checked on it, I'm going to do my damn homework instead of mouseshitting all over people's reputations.

You have every right to be pissed. I did indeed confuse the two of you. My sincere apology~

Jenson71
03-08-2011, 10:53 AM
You have every right to be pissed. I did indeed confuse the two of you. My sincere apology~

Oh shut up. I wasn't even mad.

RedNeckRaider
03-08-2011, 11:20 AM
Oh shut up. I wasn't even mad.

Oh yeah! well...uh...then...I was not really sorry~