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Jaric
03-07-2011, 12:25 PM
I don't care what your stance on immigration is, this is retarded. But my favorite part is at the end.

A policy requiring U.S. Border Patrol agents to use nonlethal bean bags as a first line of defense evidently led to the murder of an agent who was gunned down by a heavily armed group of illegal immigrants in Arizona.

The deadly gun battle took place on December 14, but the Department of Homeland Security has kept details from the public under the often-invoked premise that it's an “ongoing investigation.” However, this week an Arizona newspaper obtained FBI files relating to the case and the details are sure to ignite rage among those who favor securing the increasingly violent southern border.

The murdered agent, Brian Terry, and his colleague encountered five illegal border crossers at around 11:15 p.m. in an area known as Peck Canyon, northwest of Nogales. The illegal aliens refused commands to drop their weapons and the two federal agents proceeded to fire beanbags, as per Border Patrol policy to use nonlethal force against migrants.

Turns out the illegal immigrants were heavily armed with sophisticated assault weapons known as AK-47s. They responded to the beanbags with gunfire and agent Terry was mortally shot in the back. The agents eventually returned fire but it was too late. Terry was a member of a highly trained tactical unit (Bortac) that was targeting a group that robbed and assaulted drug runners and illegal aliens.

Making matters worse, a separate news report indicates that the gun used to murder Terry was actually part of a federal experiment that allowed firearms from the U.S. to be smuggled into Mexico so they could eventually be traced to drug cartels. Instead, federal law enforcement officers have lost track of hundreds of guns which have been used in numerous crimes.

Among them were at least three guns found at the Peck Canyon scene of Terry’s murder. The weapons were traced through their serial numbers to a gun shop in Glendale, Arizona, which led to a Phoenix man (Jaime Avila) that the feds repeatedly allowed to smuggle firearms into Mexico. Known as Operation Fast and Furious, the disastrous project was run by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF).

The bolded part is my favorite. So not only are we handcuffing federal agents, at the same time we are actually arming drug runners.

Out ****ing standing.

:facepalm:

Link (http://www.judicialwatch.org/blog/2011/mar/murdered-border-agent-forced-use-nonlethal-beanbags)

Also, props to Baron on Patriots Planet for finding this. Thought this should create some...interesting discussion.

Saul Good
03-07-2011, 12:33 PM
Immediate action needs to be taken. That action should involve pandering to the gays.

talastan
03-07-2011, 12:35 PM
Here is the original article in the LA times:

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-guns-mexico-20110304,0,7581670,full.story

U.S. gun-tracing operation let firearms into criminal handsA federal operation aimed at tracing weapons to Mexican drug cartels lost track of hundreds, including two guns found at the scene of a Border Patrol agent's killing in Arizona.


By Kim Murphy, Los Angeles Times

March 3, 2011, 6:13 p.m.
A federal operation that allowed weapons from the U.S. to pass into the hands of suspected gun smugglers so they could be traced to the higher echelons of Mexican drug cartels has lost track of hundreds of firearms, many of which have been linked to crimes, including the fatal shooting of a Border Patrol agent in December.

The investigation, known as Operation Fast and Furious, was conducted even though U.S. authorities suspected that some of the weapons might be used in crimes, according to a variety of federal agents who voiced anguished objections to the operation.

Many of the weapons have spread across the most violence-torn states in Mexico, with at least 195 linked to some form of crime or law enforcement action, according to documents obtained by the Center for Public Integrity and The Times.

The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, which ran the operation, said that 1,765 guns were sold to suspected smugglers during a 15-month period of the investigation. Of those, 797 were recovered on both sides of the border, including 195 in Mexico after they were used in crimes, collected during arrests or intercepted through other law enforcement operations.

John Dodson, an agent with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives who worked on Operation Fast and Furious, said in an interview with the Center for Public Integrity, a nonprofit research group based in Washington, that he was still haunted by his participation in the investigation.

"With the number of guns we let walk, we'll never know how many people were killed, raped, robbed," he said. "There is nothing we can do to round up those guns. They are gone."

The ATF said agents took every possible precaution to assure that guns were recovered before crossing into Mexico.

Scot L. Thomasson, the ATF's public affairs chief in Washington, said the Fast and Furious strategy is still under evaluation.

"It's always a good business practice to review any new strategy six or eight months after you've initiated it, to make sure it's working, that it's having the desired effect, and then make adjustments as you see fit to ensure it's successful," he said.

But enough concern has been raised that some Washington officials have begun to dig deeper into the details of the operation.

On Thursday, as President Obama and Mexican President Felipe Calderon met in Washington to discuss the increasing problems with drug and gun smuggling, Atty. Gen. Eric H. Holder Jr. asked top officials at the Justice Department to consult the inspector general to determine if further investigation of the operation was needed.

U.S. Sen. Charles E. Grassley (R-Iowa), ranking member of the Senate Judiciary Committee, initiated an inquiry to determine whether guns traveled to Mexico through inadvertence or deliberate policy on the part of U.S. law enforcement.

"We still don't have the documents we've asked for. Maybe we will get the documents. But right now it's stonewalling," Grassley said in an interview Thursday.

"Too many government agencies always want the big case," he said. "They keep these gun-running sales moving along, even when they have people within the agency that say something bad's going to happen. They had plenty of warnings … and the prophets turned out to be right."

Much of what is now known about the case has only surfaced in the last few months following the December shooting death in Arizona of Customs and Border Protection Agent Brian Terry.

But the investigation was underway more than a year earlier, when Mexican customs agents in the small border town of Naco stopped a passenger car traveling from the U.S. that was carrying a surprising cargo: 41 AK-47s, a .50-caliber rifle, 40 semiautomatic gun magazines, a telescopic rifle sight and three knives.

At least three guns found that day were traced through their serial numbers to a gun shop in Glendale, Ariz., which then led to a Phoenix man, Jaime Avila, who had purchased four weapons there.

Over the course of the next year, federal agents watched Avila and several associates buy more heavy-duty weapons, which investigators were convinced were intended for Mexican drug cartels.

Despite their suspicions, the ATF allowed Avila to continue.

It was part of a new strategy embarked upon after the agency had found it increasingly difficult to build cases against "straw buyers," who purchased weapons for the cartels.

The buyers were working for increasingly complex trafficking organizations in which guns were passed among several legal owners in many locations in the U.S. before being transferred to Mexico.

As a result, the ATF decided to go after not just the buyers, but the organizations, Thomasson said.

"That was the shift in strategy. We recognized we were facing a far more sophisticated trafficking organization. We recognized the organization was a lot deeper in bodies, and we recognized that unless we went after the head of the organization, the person ordering the guns, ordering the violence, we were going to have little to no success in stemming the violence down there," he said.

It was an attempt to apply the tactics of a narcotics investigation, in which small-scale drug buyers are allowed to operate under surveillance in the hope of catching their more powerful cartel counterparts.

But several veteran agents were outraged at the shift, saying that there is a big difference between tracking drugs and tracking guns. They saw the change as a violation of a sacred ATF policy: Make the big case or don't make the big case, but don't let the guns go.

"We're not talking about bags of dope. We're not letting the guy walk away with a stolen flat-screen TV. We're talking about guns. Our job is to keep guns off the street and out of criminals' hands and prevent them from being used in violent situations," said Jay Dobyns, an ATF agent in Phoenix who was not part of the Fast and Furious team but who has watched it unfold.

Dodson, the ATF agent who did work on the operation, was transferred last fall to the FBI's Joint Terrorism Task Force. He said a supervisor justified the strategy by saying, "If you're going to make an omelet, you've got to scramble some eggs."

"I took it to mean that whatever crimes these guns were going to be involved in, those were the eggs, those were acceptable," Dodson said.

One agent, who spoke on condition of anonymity, added: "We voiced our concerns quite vocally to the point of yelling, screaming. We were overridden."

The dissent prompted a harsh e-mail last March from the ATF's group supervisor in charge of the day-to-day operations, David J. Voth, warning agents to stay on board.

"Whether you care or not, people of rank and authority at HQ are paying close attention to this case, and they also believe we … are doing what they envisioned the Southwest Border Groups doing," he wrote.

"I will be damned if this case is going to suffer due to petty arguing, rumors or other adolescent behavior," he added. "This is the pinnacle of domestic U.S. law enforcement techniques. …Maybe the Maricopa County Jail is hiring detention officers and you can get paid $30,000 (instead of $100,000) to serve lunch to inmates all day."

But even Voth became worried about the number of guns moving to Mexico — 359 last March alone, according to an e-mail he sent to the U.S. attorney's office in Phoenix.

The risks of Operation Fast and Furious became apparent on Dec. 14, when Terry was killed in a shootout with bandits near Rio Rico, Ariz.

To the horror of federal authorities, two guns whose serial numbers matched guns purchased by Avila the previous January were found at the scene. Avila was promptly arrested.

Two months after the shooting, Sen. Grassley sent a query to the Justice Department, asking for more detail on Terry's death.

In response, the department denied that any guns had been allowed to enter Mexico as part of an investigation.

"The allegation … that ATF 'sanctioned' or otherwise knowingly allowed the sale of assault weapons to a straw purchaser who then transported them into Mexico — is false," Assistant Atty. Gen. Ronald Welch wrote. "ATF makes every effort to interdict weapons that have been purchased illegally and prevent their transportation to Mexico."

The department said that Project Gunrunner, the umbrella operation across the Southwest border of which Operation Fast and Furious was a part, has resulted in the seizure of more than 10,000 firearms and 1.1 million rounds of ammunition destined for Mexico since 2006.

But Grassley produced documents provided by ATF agents in Phoenix and elsewhere that showed that weapons bought by straw purchasers who were under surveillance were finding their way to Mexico, in addition to the two guns found at the scene of Terry's shooting.

Avila and 33 others were indicted in January on charges of acting as straw purchasers of weapons, along with related drug and money laundering charges. As a result of detailed spadework, ATF and Justice Department officials say, those cases now include strong evidence against suspected recipients of the contraband weapons.

No one, however, has been charged with shooting Terry. ATF officials said there was no evidence showing the two Fast and Furious guns found at the scene were used to kill the agent.

On Thursday, the Justice Department declined again in a letter to Grassley to release internal communications about the sale of the weapons to Avila and a 30-page memo the ATF's special agent in charge, William D. Newell, reportedly wrote to ATF headquarters after Terry's death.

Welch said any such documents, if they exist, cannot be released while they are part of an ongoing investigation.

Terry's mother, Josephine, said she had received no answer as to how the two guns from Arizona came to be at the same place her son died.

"They don't tell us nothing. They say they don't want to mess up their investigation. I'm disappointed. I'm really disappointed," she said. "As devoted as my son was to the government, I think they just want him to go away. They just want to forget that this even happened."

kim.murphy@latimes.com

John Solomon, David Heath and Gordon Witkin of the Center for Public Integrity joined in the investigation that produced this report.

Jaric
03-07-2011, 12:36 PM
Immediate action needs to be taken. That action should involve pandering to the gays.

I think I like where this is headed.

Or maybe not. We'll see.

HonestChieffan
03-07-2011, 12:40 PM
I think I like where this is headed.

Or maybe not. We'll see.

Headed nowhere.

The Mad Crapper
03-07-2011, 12:58 PM
Immediate action needs to be taken. That action should involve pandering to the gays.

Or building high speed rail!

http://thepeoplescube.com/images/The_Oval_Office_Obama_260.jpg
"I serve as a blank screen on which people of vastly different political stripes project their own views."

ClevelandBronco
03-07-2011, 01:02 PM
Where the hell is this president from, anyway?

Wait. Scratch that question. Just enjoy the clip.

<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/2ScvAJG51V4" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

CoMoChief
03-07-2011, 01:13 PM
This is all part of a CIA operation.

The CIA has been running drugs into this country (on a massively large scale) for years. There always has to be the boogy man for us to chase. Why do you think the war on drugs has failed for the last 40-something years? Our federal agents are being handcuffed, allowing drug cartels to smuggle drugs into this country because there's an enormously large amount of money in it.

First it was the war on communism, then the war on drugs, now it's the war on terror. All of these wars are not supposed to be won. Theyre all failed never ending operations that are designed to help government pass legislation that will ultimately result in lose freedoms. Look at the Patriot Act. How many rights does that take away from American citizens? How does the Patriot Act protect against Terrorism? It doesn't, there is nothing about that law/act, that can stop someone from strapping a bomb to their chest, walking into a large public establishment and blowing it all to hell.


As far as this, here's how I look at it. CIA ops know and handle smugglings into this country. They know inside information on FBI intelligence I'm sure, or at least can easily be leaked to them. So the drugs/guns are being smuggled into the coutnry, and the FBI, immigration border patrol officers are purposely handcuffed and exploited to allow this to happen. Why do I say that? Because the problem is too easy to address yet no one is taking action and they're purposely dragging their feet on this.

Think about this....the average person can't just smuggle drugs into the country without being caught. It's not possible. You have to have connections or a broken chain link in the system somewhere. The average person can't just hijack a plane and fly it into the twin towers. It isn't flight simulator for windows, it's a fucking jetliner.

This country needs a massive overhaul on its policies, laws, legislation, economic spending, the whole 9 yards. We live in a corporate global military industrial complex. We were lied into a war. It is ALL about oil. The saudi's do nothing but lie to us. The world is running out of oil, plain and simple, we do not have an alternative energy source to it. We rely more on oil than any other nation combined. It's in everything we use today. THe oil reserves we have domestically isn't even enough to last us 50 years.

Amnorix
03-07-2011, 01:16 PM
This is all part of a CIA operation.

The CIA has been running drugs into this country (on a massively large scale) for years. There always has to be the boogy man for us to chase. Why do you think the war on drugs has failed for the last 40-something years? Our federal agents are being handcuffed, allowing drug cartels to smuggle drugs into this country because there's an enormously large amount of money in it.

First it was the war on communism, then the war on drugs, now it's the war on terror. All of these wars are not supposed to be won. Theyre all failed never ending operations that are designed to help government pass legislation that will ultimately result in lose freedoms. Look at the Patriot Act. How many rights does that take away from American citizens? How does the Patriot Act protect against Terrorism? It doesn't, there is nothing about that law/act, that can stop someone from strapping a bomb to their chest, walking into a large public establishment and blowing it all to hell.


As far as this, here's how I look at it. CIA ops know and handle smugglings into this country. They know inside information on FBI intelligence I'm sure, or at least can easily be leaked to them. So the drugs/guns are being smuggled into the coutnry, and the FBI, immigration border patrol officers are purposely handcuffed and exploited to allow this to happen. Why do I say that? Because the problem is too easy to address yet no one is taking action and they're purposely dragging their feet on this.


:rolleyes:

Easy 6
03-07-2011, 01:16 PM
It boggles the mind that Mexico knows full well how violent their gangs are & that American agents are prime targets... yet they wont allow them to have weapons in their country, yeah, thats real cooperation.

Calderon can take his sh*thole & stick it up his sh*thole.

The Mad Crapper
03-07-2011, 01:18 PM
It boggles the mind that Mexico knows full well how violent their gangs are & that American agents are prime targets... yet they wont allow them to have weapons in their country, yeah, thats real cooperation.

Calderon can take his sh*thole & stick it up his sh*thole.

C'mon now. That's no way to talk about our Free Trade partner. :drool:

Jaric
03-07-2011, 01:21 PM
:rolleyes:

You can roll your eyes if you want to, but IMO giving these people assualt rifles is either gross incompetence or corruption. I don't really see there being any inbetween

What do you think?

Radar Chief
03-07-2011, 01:24 PM
I don't care what your stance on immigration is, this is retarded. But my favorite part is at the end.

The bolded part is my favorite. So not only are we handcuffing federal agents, at the same time we are actually arming drug runners.

Out ****ing standing.

:facepalm:

Link (http://www.judicialwatch.org/blog/2011/mar/murdered-border-agent-forced-use-nonlethal-beanbags)

Also, props to Baron on Patriots Planet for finding this. Thought this should create some...interesting discussion.

Here is the original article in the LA times:

I heard about this last week and was surprised I hadn’t seen it posted here yet.
Beat me to it rep. :thumb:

headsnap
03-07-2011, 01:29 PM
:rolleyes:
The Truth is Out There..

The Mad Crapper
03-07-2011, 01:33 PM
Amnorix is cool. He wears a turtleneck and smokes a pipe.

Amnorix
03-07-2011, 01:36 PM
You can roll your eyes if you want to, but IMO giving these people assualt rifles is either gross incompetence or corruption. I don't really see there being any inbetween

What do you think?

I was rolling my eyes at a separate issue than the ATF operation at issue. I can't explain why the ATF did what it did, but I would certainly be all over their case to get that explanation if I had the power to do so, as it does seem pretty damn stupid.

Garcia Bronco
03-07-2011, 01:37 PM
Obama...you dipshit...get this under control.

Amnorix
03-07-2011, 01:37 PM
The Truth is Out There..

The Truth about what?

headsnap
03-07-2011, 01:42 PM
The Truth about what?

Aliens, birth certificates, government mind control through grammar, etc...

Jaric
03-07-2011, 01:51 PM
I was rolling my eyes at a separate issue than the ATF operation at issue. I can't explain why the ATF did what it did, but I would certainly be all over their case to get that explanation if I had the power to do so, as it does seem pretty damn stupid.

I almost hope it is corruption. I'm not sure I feel comfortable with that level of incompetence.

Radar Chief
03-07-2011, 01:52 PM
The Truth about what?

Not an X-Files fan?

CoMoChief
03-07-2011, 01:54 PM
I almost hope it is corruption. I'm not sure I feel comfortable with that level of incompetence.

Well, considering that this is the kinda level of stupidity that even a 10yr old knows better, I'd say it certainly is corruption. There's too much money involved for it to be just gross negligence IMO.

So you mean to tell me there's NO OTHER WAY to track drug cartels unless we are giving them weapons. We arm out men with ****ing bean bag guns....the smugglers get assault rifles. ....Hmmm gee, let's see who wins this battle.

Brb, I've just been challenged to a gun fight....better go grab my knife.

orange
03-07-2011, 06:36 PM
You can roll your eyes if you want to, but IMO giving these people assualt rifles is either gross incompetence or corruption. I don't really see there being any inbetween

What do you think?

"giving" these people assault rifles? Think again. Nobody GAVE them anything, we SOLD them assault rifles. This IS America, after all.

Oh, and by the way, those conservatives/law enforcement hawks/anti-Mexico nativists among you who are outraged by this operation - you do know that if it was America, they could simply buy the guns there. Don't you?

I HOPE you're not suggesting gun control laws have a place.

What do you think?

HonestChieffan
03-07-2011, 06:45 PM
"giving" these people assault rifles? Think again. Nobody GAVE them anything, we SOLD them assault rifles. This IS America, after all.

Oh, and by the way, those conservatives/law enforcement fans/anti-Mexico nativists among you who are outraged by this operation - you do know that if it was America, they could simply buy the guns there. Don't you?

I HOPE you're not suggesting gun control laws have a place.

What do you think?

who sold them?

orange
03-07-2011, 06:49 PM
who sold them?

gun shop in Glendale, Arizona

Jaric
03-07-2011, 06:58 PM
What do you think?

That being opposed to gun running (or at least expecting the Federal Government to enforce it when they know about it) does not make a person pro-gun control.

orange
03-07-2011, 07:00 PM
That being opposed to gun running (or at least expecting the Federal Government to enforce it when they know about it) does not make a person pro-gun control.

Really? I don't see it, myself.

If guns are free to own and distribute, what's "gun running?"

And "expecting the Federal Government to enforce" WHAT, exactly? MEXICO'S gun laws?

HonestChieffan
03-07-2011, 07:02 PM
gun shop in Glendale, Arizona

Did they report the sale to ATF as required by law?....

Did they follow up on the report and investigate?


Was ATF using the Gun shop as part of the sting?

Was the Gun shop aware ATF was running a sting and cooperated?

What should the gun shop have done when asked by ATF to help them?

HonestChieffan
03-07-2011, 07:05 PM
Really? I don't see it, myself.

If guns are free to own and distribute, what's "gun running?"

And "expecting the Federal Government to enforce" WHAT, exactly? MEXICO'S gun laws?

Do you understand the process required by a gun dealer for multiple purchases by a single buyer? Or a single buyer making a single large purchase of the same make/style of weapon?

Do you understand ATF regulates gun sales by licensed gun dealers in the US?

Do you understand the process and the background checks required?

orange
03-07-2011, 07:05 PM
Did ... them?

Argue with Jaric maybe. I'm not suggesting the gun shop broke any laws. Are you?

I just don't see where someone who advocates open and free gun purchase/ownership has room to be at all upset about this. Open and free means open and free. Or, as someone else might say, you have to break some eggs to make an omelet.

Jaric
03-07-2011, 07:06 PM
Really? I don't see it, myself.

If guns are free to own and distribute, what's "gun running?"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smuggling

I also hope I don't have to explain why making laws and the selectively enforcing them isn't a good idea either.

Again, what happened out in the desert has nothing to do with how you feel about illegal immigration. But if you can't look at what happened here and not say "That's fucked up, that should not be happening," then I honestly don't know what to tell you.

HonestChieffan
03-07-2011, 07:07 PM
Argue with Jaric maybe. I'm not suggesting the gun shop broke any laws. Are you?


Nice eject.

Jaric
03-07-2011, 07:09 PM
Argue with Jaric maybe. I'm not suggesting the gun shop broke any laws. Are you?
I'll give you a hint for the future.

If is says "exported" it was a legal transaction.

If it says "smuggled" laws were broken.

orange
03-07-2011, 07:12 PM
I'll give you a hint for the future.

If is says "exported" it was a legal transaction.

If it says "smuggled" laws were broken.

These LAWS that were broken - SHOULD THEY EXIST?

SHOULD the government control gun ownership?

Very simple questions. That you won't answer.

To be more specific: SHOULD WE BE TRYING TO STOP GUNS GOING TO MEXICO WHEN WE DON'T STOP THEIR SALES HERE?

The Mad Crapper
03-07-2011, 07:24 PM
This is what a scumbag looks like.

These LAWS that were broken - SHOULD THEY EXIST?

SHOULD the government control gun ownership?

Very simple questions. That you won't answer.

To be more specific: SHOULD WE BE TRYING TO STOP GUNS GOING TO MEXICO WHEN WE DON'T STOP THEIR SALES HERE?

Bwana
03-07-2011, 07:29 PM
It boggles the mind that Mexico knows full well how violent their gangs are & that American agents are prime targets... yet they wont allow them to have weapons in their country, yeah, thats real cooperation.

Calderon can take his sh*thole & stick it up his sh*thole.

What they need to do is start dropping the bastards as soon as they cross the border. Not bean bag drop, or kick to the nuts drop, but M-16 drop. If they start doing that, it will slow these clowns down, big time.

The Mad Crapper
03-07-2011, 07:33 PM
What they need to do is start dropping the bastards as soon as they cross the border. Not bean bag drop, or kick to the nuts drop, but M-16 drop. If they start doing that, it will slow these clowns down, big time.

That would be raythitht.

HonestChieffan
03-07-2011, 07:48 PM
These LAWS that were broken - SHOULD THEY EXIST?

SHOULD the government control gun ownership?

Very simple questions. That you won't answer.

To be more specific: SHOULD WE BE TRYING TO STOP GUNS GOING TO MEXICO WHEN WE DON'T STOP THEIR SALES HERE?

Its legal to buy a gun in the US if you are a citizen and pass the required background checks. The US Government does regulate gun sales as do state laws.

Its illegal to export guns to another country. And, it is illegal to take a gun into Mexico unless you pay a fee and register the gun at the border upon entry and you recheck the gun on exit at the border with Mexican officials. It is legal to transport a firearm used for hunting into Mexico if you abide by those rules.

Guns being smuggled into Mexico violates US law and Mexican law.

Why should a US citizen be denied a right granted by the constitution?

Is your desire to stop violence in Mexico to change the laws of the US?

Are you insane?

banyon
03-07-2011, 09:44 PM
This is what a scumbag looks like.

Why is this repeated, insulting trolling permitted in this forum? he makes a big show about how he's changed, which was obviously a bunch of intentional lies, and now here he is stinking up this forum again and stifling legitimate discussion.


If this guy were a lefty, he'd have been ip banned repeatedly by now.

It just makes it unpleasant to visit this forum, when any attempt to formulate an opposing viewpoint is met with (mod-tolerated) continuous juvenile insults. Until the trash is taken out here, people will be less and less inclined to bother with the effort.

banyon
03-07-2011, 09:49 PM
I had something substantive to say on the topic, but wasted it on the distraction.
I'm sure some insult awaits me as well. Oh what insightful and witty fruit from shtsprayer will my post yield?

Dallas Chief
03-07-2011, 10:11 PM
I had something substantive to say on the topic, but wasted it on the distraction.
I'm sure some insult awaits me as well. Oh what insightful and witty fruit from shtsprayer will my post yield?

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orange
03-07-2011, 10:48 PM
Is your desire to stop violence in Mexico to change the laws of the US?


I'm saying that as long as cases of assault rifles can be purchased in a Glendale Arizona gun shop by pretty much anyone, they're going to find their way to criminals. And I'm saying that you're a hypocrite for supporting - nay, demanding - such open sales and then bitching about govt. incompetence when a law enforcement agent gets killed by such a gun. The result is as predictable as the sunrise.

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/mexican-crime-american-guns/story?id=11574583
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/12/12/AR2010121202663.html

Federal authorities say more than 60,000 U.S. guns of all types have been recovered in Mexico in the past four years, helping fuel the violence that has contributed to 30,000 deaths. Mexican President Felipe Calderon came to Washington in May and urged Congress and President Obama to stop the flow of guns south.

What do you think about that? Calderon should stay on his own damn side of the border?

HonestChieffan
03-07-2011, 11:04 PM
Who was running the scam that provided the gun?

How does banning me from getting a legal firearm stop some cartel guy from getting an AK 47 from any of a million other places?

If I have a leaky pipe in my house does the leak go away if you shut the water off in your house?

How is an assault rifle defined by you?

Where do criminals buy their guns?

Are there uses for this "assault rifle" that do not involve nefarious and illegal activity or assaults? Should those now in legal possession by gun owners be confiscated?

orange
03-07-2011, 11:16 PM
Who was running the scam that provided the gun?

There was no scam. These were sales that were monitored, not set up. They would have happened in the absence of the ATF anyway.

I'm not going to play your 20 questions game because you have no clue what you're talking about.

http://www.thenewamerican.com/index.php/usnews/crime/6597-batf-agent-ordered-to-let-us-guns-into-mexico


My base question remains - SHOULD GUNS BE CONTROLLED?

If you guess that my answer would be "YES," you would be correct. But what's YOUR answer?

go bowe
03-08-2011, 12:16 AM
Why is this repeated, insulting trolling permitted in this forum? he makes a big show about how he's changed, which was obviously a bunch of intentional lies, and now here he is stinking up this forum again and stifling legitimate discussion.


If this guy were a lefty, he'd have been ip banned repeatedly by now.

It just makes it unpleasant to visit this forum, when any attempt to formulate an opposing viewpoint is met with (mod-tolerated) continuous juvenile insults. Until the trash is taken out here, people will be less and less inclined to bother with the effort.ff.vb is your friend...

go bowe
03-08-2011, 12:18 AM
Why is this repeated, insulting trolling permitted in this forum? he makes a big show about how he's changed, which was obviously a bunch of intentional lies, and now here he is stinking up this forum again and stifling legitimate discussion.


If this guy were a lefty, he'd have been ip banned repeatedly by now.

It just makes it unpleasant to visit this forum, when any attempt to formulate an opposing viewpoint is met with (mod-tolerated) continuous juvenile insults. Until the trash is taken out here, people will be less and less inclined to bother with the effort.this is dc, there is pretty much no moderators around and obnoxious behavior is not a bannable offense...

go bowe
03-08-2011, 12:23 AM
If I have a leaky pipe in my house does the leak go away if you shut the water off in your house?

badgirl, is that you?

orange
03-08-2011, 01:07 AM
If I have a leaky pipe in my house does the leak go away if you shut the water off in your house?


I missed/skipped this the first time, but since go bowe quoted it...

If your property is uphill from mine and you have a leaky cesspool, fixing it will get your shit out of my yard, yes.

ClevelandBronco
03-08-2011, 01:26 AM
I missed/skipped this the first time, but since go bowe quoted it...

If your property is uphill from mine and you have a leaky cesspool, fixing it will get your shit out of my yard, yes.

You don't have to agree with the ape to appreciate this post.

The Mad Crapper
03-08-2011, 06:28 AM
“White House press secretary Jay Carney did not shed any light Monday on the allegations uncovered by CBS News that ATF intentionally let thousands of assault rifles and other weapons fall into the hands of Mexico's drug cartels. Insiders call the controversial practice letting guns ‘walk’,” Sharyl Attkisson of CBS News reports. When questioned by chief White House correspondent Chip Reid if President Obama was "aware of the specific allegations,” Carney replied “I don’t know.”

HonestChieffan
03-08-2011, 07:18 AM
There was no scam. These were sales that were monitored, not set up. They would have happened in the absence of the ATF anyway.

I'm not going to play your 20 questions game because you have no clue what you're talking about.

http://www.thenewamerican.com/index.php/usnews/crime/6597-batf-agent-ordered-to-let-us-guns-into-mexico


My base question remains - SHOULD GUNS BE CONTROLLED?

If you guess that my answer would be "YES," you would be correct. But what's YOUR answer?



This gun appears to be under control. A two handed grip would be better but there are times when a one hand is used and required. Its good to practice with the one hand grip both left and right. Always be aware of the muzzle direction.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-tm0kdS406PI/TXX7gDHjtCI/AAAAAAAA-cw/9eubJvqKTBU/s1600/PDM%2B8.jpg

mikey23545
03-08-2011, 07:55 AM
Funny...If GWB was still in office, Orange's focus would be all over how the POTUS could approve of such an incredibly stupid plan. Instead, since his Fuhrer is in power, it somehow turns into an assault on the Second Amendment...

HonestChieffan
03-08-2011, 08:19 AM
Funny...If GWB was still in office, Orange's focus would be all over how the POTUS could approve of such an incredibly stupid plan. Instead, since his Fuhrer is in power, it somehow turns into an assault on the Second Amendment...

Banning guns in the US will stop crime in Mexico. You are just incapable of understanding. When we had prohibition its a known fact that Mexicans and Canadians stopped drinking.

Radar Chief
03-08-2011, 08:29 AM
This gun appears to be under control. A two handed grip would be better but there are times when a one hand is used and required. Its good to practice with the one hand grip both left and right. Always be aware of the muzzle direction.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-tm0kdS406PI/TXX7gDHjtCI/AAAAAAAA-cw/9eubJvqKTBU/s1600/PDM%2B8.jpg

Amber Heard, from Drive Angry?
She was on Top Gear last night. Admitted to being into guns, muscle cars and other chicks. :drool:

dirk digler
03-08-2011, 08:30 AM
There was an ICE agent killed in Mexico a couple of weeks ago that was murdered with a gun bought in Texas.

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2011/02/27/mexico-nabs-suspect-agent-slaying/



ATF says over 2000 guns cross into Mexico each day so there is definitely a huge problem that we need to fix.

HonestChieffan
03-08-2011, 08:48 AM
Amber Heard, from Drive Angry?
She was on Top Gear last night. Admitted to being into guns, muscle cars and other chicks. :drool:

Damn....there is a girl holding that gun!

HonestChieffan
03-08-2011, 08:49 AM
There was an ICE agent killed in Mexico a couple of weeks ago that was murdered with a gun bought in Texas.

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2011/02/27/mexico-nabs-suspect-agent-slaying/



ATF says over 2000 guns cross into Mexico each day so there is definitely a huge problem that we need to fix.


Napolitano is pretty sure the border is secure. We can relax now.

Radar Chief
03-08-2011, 10:43 AM
Damn....there is a girl holding that gun!

Why yes, yes there is. And a very hot one at that.

orange
03-08-2011, 10:46 AM
Why yes, yes there is. And a very hot one at that.

Teats on a bull.

orange
03-08-2011, 11:01 AM
Gun-grabbing is good, now

Yessir.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_1okg6FxI_og/SSvqIG82MrI/AAAAAAAACyA/TiaRNYXEcY0/s1600/Blog+-+Double.jpg

The Mad Crapper
03-08-2011, 11:21 AM
Why is this repeated, insulting trolling permitted in this forum? he makes a big show about how he's changed, which was obviously a bunch of intentional lies, and now here he is stinking up this forum again and stifling legitimate discussion.


If this guy were a lefty, he'd have been ip banned repeatedly by now.

It just makes it unpleasant to visit this forum, when any attempt to formulate an opposing viewpoint is met with (mod-tolerated) continuous juvenile insults. Until the trash is taken out here, people will be less and less inclined to bother with the effort.

http://i676.photobucket.com/albums/vv123/Gardnerius/Animated%20gifs%20for%20boards/hrzfab.gif

go bowe
03-08-2011, 01:11 PM
Where do criminals buy their guns?
costco...

HonestChieffan
03-08-2011, 01:12 PM
costco...


naw, they wouldnt buy the membership

Easy 6
03-08-2011, 01:18 PM
What they need to do is start dropping the bastards as soon as they cross the border. Not bean bag drop, or kick to the nuts drop, but M-16 drop. If they start doing that, it will slow these clowns down, big time.

It'll come to that at some point, no doubt. The more they are allowed to get away with, the more crazy sh*t they'll attempt.

I just cant believe mexico asks for our help & then sends our guys in there with only their dicks in their hands.

orange
03-08-2011, 02:35 PM
I just cant believe mexico asks for our help & then sends our guys in there with only their dicks in their hands.

This is the second time you've brought this up...

... and I have to ask ...

What are you talking about?

This was in America. Rio Rico, AZ.

http://www.kold.com/global/story.asp?s=13675683

go bowe
03-08-2011, 02:41 PM
naw, they wouldnt buy the membershipthat's right, they'd steal it...

orange
03-08-2011, 02:43 PM
that's right, they'd steal it...

No chance. You have to present your original long-form birth certificate to get a Costco card.

go bowe
03-08-2011, 03:11 PM
No chance. You have to present your original long-form birth certificate to get a Costco card.oh crap, i forgot about that...

go bowe
03-08-2011, 03:19 PM
as far as the border patrol goes, it's insane to ask them to use beanbags against armed thugs...

if they want to beanbag some unarmed migrant running across the desert, that's one thing...

but guys who are armed or otherwise threatening ought to be shot with bullets, not beanbags...

the border patrol should be able to respond the same way that any police officer would when threatened by a criminal...

mikey23545
03-08-2011, 04:37 PM
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_1okg6FxI_og/SSvqIG82MrI/AAAAAAAACyA/TiaRNYXEcY0/s1600/Blog+-+Double.jpg



Orange + Banyon

http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/9026/2horse.jpg (http://img148.imageshack.us/i/2horse.jpg/)

Bump
03-08-2011, 07:38 PM
It boggles the mind that Mexico knows full well how violent their gangs are & that American agents are prime targets... yet they wont allow them to have weapons in their country, yeah, thats real cooperation.

Calderon can take his sh*thole & stick it up his sh*thole.

if they were allowed to have guns it could have jeopardized someone's re-election.