PDA

View Full Version : Economics Stewart Exposes FOX's Hypocrisy


Mr. Kotter
03-07-2011, 08:27 PM
Unbelievably funny stuff.... LMAO

<div style="background-color:#000000;width:520px;"><div style="padding:4px;"><embed src="http://media.mtvnservices.com/mgid:cms:video:thedailyshow.com:376266" width="512" height="288" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowFullScreen="true" allowScriptAccess="always" base="." flashVars=""></embed><p style="text-align:left;background-color:#FFFFFF;padding:4px;margin-top:4px;margin-bottom:0px;font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:12px;"><b><a href="http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/thu-march-3-2011/crisis-in-the-dairyland---for-richer-and-poorer---teachers-and-wall-street">The Daily Show - Crisis in Dairyland - For Richer and Poorer - Teachers and Wall Street</a></b><br/>Tags: <a href='http://www.thedailyshow.com/full-episodes/'>Daily Show Full Episodes</a>,<a href='http://www.indecisionforever.com/'>Political Humor & Satire Blog</a>,<a href='http://www.facebook.com/thedailyshow'>The Daily Show on Facebook</a></p></div></div>

SNR
03-07-2011, 08:47 PM
Are there still people who claim that Stewart is only a comedian and nothing more?

Mr. Kotter
03-07-2011, 09:00 PM
Are there still people who claim that Stewart is only a comedian and nothing more?

Yeah....some idiots I suppose. His takes on a lot of stuff sure beat the hell out of many media types--especially those at FOX or MSNBC.

alnorth
03-07-2011, 09:06 PM
We can't afford to pay teachers as much as what you think we should pay. I don't care if you think its unfair, hire less qualified, less educated teachers if you have to, I will not vote for a state or local tax increase. Period.

Mr. Flopnuts
03-07-2011, 09:09 PM
We can't afford to pay teachers as much as what you think we should pay. I don't care if you think its unfair, hire less qualified, less educated teachers if you have to, I will not vote for a state or local tax increase. Period.

Honestly, that's fair enough. Cut the college degree requirements and hire kids straight of high school. Everyone wins.

Mr. Kotter
03-07-2011, 09:20 PM
We can't afford to pay teachers as much as what you think we should pay. I don't care if you think its unfair, hire less qualified, less educated teachers if you have to, I will not vote for a state or local tax increase. Period.

That's a sure way to destroy all public education in the country, ain't it? Of course, that would be just fine with many on the reactionary right.

Well you better hope all Republicans, including moderates, and some Democrats feel the same way--otherwise, the Republican gains in the last election will be reversed pretty quickly.

Guess we'll see.... :hmmm:

Mr. Kotter
03-07-2011, 09:22 PM
Honestly, that's fair enough. Cut the college degree requirements and hire kids straight of high school. Everyone wins.

Except that ALL public schools would become the bad public schools that critics deride. And, in that, students and families that can't afford to send their kids to private schools will pay the real price.

Yeah, everyone "wins".... :shake:

SNR
03-07-2011, 09:27 PM
That's a sure way to destroy all public education in the country, ain't it? How will forcing teachers to cover a larger percentage of their benefits "destroy all public education in the country"?

Mr. Kotter
03-07-2011, 09:39 PM
How will forcing teachers to cover a larger percentage of their benefits "destroy all public education in the country"?

They've CONCEDED on that point in WI (and many other parts of the country; ) it's about collective bargaining....but more importantly on insane and illogical insistence lower and lower tax rates, that don't adequately fund state obligations to educate children.

Unless, of course, we gut programs, cut salaries and benefits, and cause all public schools to become the caricature of public schools that critics would have you believe they are (but aren't in many parts of the country--where many folks are pleased with good schools.)

Like I said though, I'm sure that would be just dandy with many on the reactionary right.

BucEyedPea
03-07-2011, 09:43 PM
That's a sure way to destroy all public education in the country, ain't it? Of course, that would be just fine with many on the reactionary right.
It's neither fine with us or not....it's already been destroyed. Some just refused to admit it.

Well you better hope all Republicans, including moderates, and some Democrats feel the same way--otherwise, the Republican gains in the last election will be reversed pretty quickly.

Guess we'll see.... :hmmm:

If anyone of those people in those groups vote for education in the National election then they haven't a clue that our Federal Congress has zero to do with the Ed under our Constitution?

ClevelandBronco
03-07-2011, 09:46 PM
Are there still people who claim that Stewart is only a comedian and nothing more?

Nah. He forgot that he was a comedian long ago, and that's when I stopped caring what he has to say.

Mr. Kotter
03-07-2011, 09:46 PM
It's neither fine with us or not....it's already been destroyed. Some just refused to admit it.

If anyone of those people in those groups vote for education in the National election then they haven't a clue that our Federal Congress has zero to do with the Feds under our Constitution?

Republicans at the state level will be running for office too, and should feel the most pain. However, the Republicans leading this charade at the national level should pay too. And I suspect they will.

SNR
03-07-2011, 09:51 PM
It's neither fine with us or not....it's already been destroyed. Some just refused to admit it. That reminds me, I just read some stuff by John Taylor Gatto for the first time a few weeks ago. He makes some rationalizations that I really don't care about or agree with, but as far as exposing how public schools (and private schools for that matter) dumb down children, it's one of the most eye-opening things I've ever read.

SNR
03-07-2011, 09:53 PM
Nah. He forgot that he was a comedian long ago, and that's when I stopped caring what he has to say.Less than a year ago, I criticized Stewart for harboring some rather liberal views in front of a rather liberal studio audience and yet not admitting his bias. Even then, he and some people on this very forum told me, "He's just a comedian... he makes fun of Obama all the time... he's totally fair and just makes jokes when the material is there..."

I wonder if those same folks would say the same thing today

|Zach|
03-07-2011, 10:02 PM
Less than a year ago, I criticized Stewart for harboring some rather liberal views in front of a rather liberal studio audience and yet not admitting his bias. Even then, he and some people on this very forum told me, "He's just a comedian... he makes fun of Obama all the time... he's totally fair and just makes jokes when the material is there..."

I wonder if those same folks would say the same thing today

I would say the same thing today. He called out his bias in this having a mother as a teacher but he goes after all of it. Even in this issue was mocking the democratic politicians for being so spineless for leaving the damn scene. lol.

googlegoogle
03-07-2011, 10:31 PM
Apples and oranges.

Public workers live off taxpayer expense.

The investment banks should have gone out of business. (like Lehman. F Goldman Sachs).

Gov.Christie should have banned collective bargaining too. Should be one of the principles of the GOP.

teedubya
03-08-2011, 12:59 AM
http://i.imgur.com/KZFQa.jpg

nstygma
03-08-2011, 02:06 AM
this is great
http://www.nytimes.com/packages/html/newsgraphics/2011/0119-budget/index.html

interest on the public debt: $475 billion

The Mad Crapper
03-08-2011, 05:41 AM
White House memo notes shortage of applicants for contest to have Obama to speak at high school graduation

The White House is ramping up an effort to promote a nationwide competition to decide which high school wins a commencement speech by President Obama.

An internal White House memo indicates that the White House is facing a shortage of applications less than a week before the deadline.

The competition was extended from the February 25 deadline until Friday, March 11 after few schools met the original application deadline. CBS News has learned a White House Communications Office internal memo dated February 22 noted "a major issue with the Commencement Challenge."

"As of yesterday we had received 14 applications and the deadline is Friday," the memo said. The memo also urged recipients to, "please keep the application number close hold." LMAO

A follow-up memo on February 28 reported receipt of 68 applications. Noting the competition among more than 1,000 schools last year, the memo said, "Something isn't working." It called on staffers to ask "friendly congressional, gubernatorial and mayoral offices" to encourage schools to apply.

"We should also make sure the Cabinet is pushing the competition out to their lists," the memo said. The note reiterated, "We do not want the actual application number out there (we didn't release the number of applications we received last year until after the submission period)-so folks should not use it in their pitches."

On Monday, officials declined to cite the number of applications received so far.

The president will travel to the school that is judged to best prepare students for college and careers. The competition is part of Mr. Obama's ultimate goal of making the U.S. the country with the highest proportion of college graduates by 2020.

Officials were unable to explain the reason for the apparent lack of interest, beyond pointing to possible procrastination by school systems.

Education Secretary Arne Duncan told CBS Radio News, "It's a huge opportunity for high schools to tell their story." Asked about the lagging application numbers, Duncan said, "Folks are working hard." He called on schools to "put their best foot forward and join the competition."

Education Department press aide Elizabeth Utrup said the deadline was extended "to provide an ample amount of time to reach out to schools from across the country." Utrup added, "Like last year, we anticipate the overwhelming majority will be submitted near the close of the Challenge."

The White House has posted on-line video appeals from President Obama and a student from last year's winning school, Kalamazoo (Michigan) Central High. Entertainers John Legend and Nick Jonas recorded their own videos for the challenge when they were in Washington for a recent "In Performance at the White House" event.

The exact deadline for schools to apply is 11:59P.M., Eastern Time, March 11.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20040100-503544.html

Only 14 applicants! ROFL


Barack Hussein Obama!

Mmmmmmmmmm mmmmmmmm mmmmmmmmmmmmmm!

http://thepeoplescube.com/images/Obama_Coin_ExactChange_160.gif

Hopey Change™




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

dirk digler
03-08-2011, 07:17 AM
Wow I haven't seen an owning like that in a long time.

The best part is when they were saying we couldn't limit bailed out million dollar execs pay but we could for freaking teachers.

Disgusting really

Mr. Kotter
03-08-2011, 07:27 AM
Wow I haven't seen an owning like that in a long time.

The best part is when they were saying we couldn't limit bailed out million dollar execs pay but we could for freaking teachers.

Disgusting really

Yeah, somehow.... $250,000 annual incomes aren't "rich" folks, but $65K (90K, with benefits) is "too much"

And banning executive bonuses for bailed-out business, banks, and financial firms would lead to a "talent drain," yet they don't think reducing teacher pay will have any real adverse affect on the quality of education in the good public schools that we still have.

Unbelievable.... :shake:

dirk digler
03-08-2011, 07:39 AM
Yeah, somehow.... $250,000 annual incomes aren't "rich" folks, but $65K (90K, with benefits) is "too much"

And banning executive bonuses for bailed-out business, banks, and financial firms would lead to a "talent drain," yet they don't think reducing teacher pay will have any real adverse affect on the quality of education in the good public schools that we still have.

Unbelievable.... :shake:

Yep. It is more elitism BS because they probably don't send their kids to public school so they don't care.

patteeu
03-08-2011, 07:44 AM
That's a sure way to destroy all public education in the country, ain't it? Of course, that would be just fine with many on the reactionary right.

Well you better hope all Republicans, including moderates, and some Democrats feel the same way--otherwise, the Republican gains in the last election will be reversed pretty quickly.

Guess we'll see.... :hmmm:

I think our kids would be better off with less greedy, self-centered people teaching them anyway.

The Mad Crapper
03-08-2011, 07:47 AM
Yeah, somehow.... $250,000 annual incomes aren't "rich" folks, but $65K (90K, with benefits) is "too much"

That's a BS argument. You're comparing a private sector income with a public sector income, ignoring the fact that the taxes from the private sector workers has to support the public sector workers.

I got no problem with public workers collective bargaining---

As long as the taxpayers have a representative at the negotiating table. Right now we have a quid pro quo between democrat politicians and unions, and grand larceny of the taxpayer.

eazyb81
03-08-2011, 07:50 AM
Yeah, somehow.... $250,000 annual incomes aren't "rich" folks, but $65K (90K, with benefits) is "too much"

And banning executive bonuses for bailed-out business, banks, and financial firms would lead to a "talent drain," yet they don't think reducing teacher pay will have any real adverse affect on the quality of education in the good public schools that we still have.

Unbelievable.... :shake:

I think it has more to do with the fact that most people are sick of the massive entitlement programs for public employees, and would rather decrease them than increase taxes to meet state and local budgets.

And the majority, if not all, of CEOs at bailed-out investment banks did not receive bonuses for 2008, so I'm not exactly sure what you are referring to in your last comment.

patteeu
03-08-2011, 07:52 AM
Yeah, somehow.... $250,000 annual incomes aren't "rich" folks, but $65K (90K, with benefits) is "too much"

And banning executive bonuses for bailed-out business, banks, and financial firms would lead to a "talent drain," yet they don't think reducing teacher pay will have any real adverse affect on the quality of education in the good public schools that we still have.

Unbelievable.... :shake:

It doesn't take a rocket scientist (or a finance expert) to teach kids. We're talking about a difference similar to that between a ditch digger and a doctor here.

Mr. Kotter
03-08-2011, 07:54 AM
I think our kids would be better off with less greedy, self-centered people teaching them anyway.

Of course you would. Yeah, maybe we can have HS dropouts take over teaching in public schools, and that way your desired end of destroying all public education will be expedited.

Mr. Kotter
03-08-2011, 07:55 AM
It doesn't take a rocket scientist (or a finance expert) to teach kids. We're talking about a difference similar to that between a ditch digger and a doctor here.

Wow. That pretty much says it all. Teachers are the equivalent of ditch diggers in the reactionary right's bizzarro wold. Nice.

:rolleyes:

Saul Good
03-08-2011, 07:56 AM
For a profession full of people who claim that they do it because they love to educate children, I have never seen a bigger bunch of whiny bitches in all my life. Seriously, what other profession even comes close?

Jenson71
03-08-2011, 07:58 AM
It doesn't take a rocket scientist (or a finance expert) to teach kids. We're talking about a difference similar to that between a ditch digger and a doctor here.

It takes a lot of skill and character to teach kids well. A lot of people will say that some of their greatest influences on their life was a teacher or two. It's a pretty important position.

My high school history teacher was the greatest man I've ever known. I strive to be like him. At times I feel that his influence on me is the only thing that keeps me from descending into apathy. Wow, I love that man.

Mr. Kotter
03-08-2011, 07:59 AM
For a profession full of people who claim that they do it because they love to educate children, I have never seen a bigger bunch of whiny bitches in all my life. Seriously, what other profession even comes close?

Well for one, I'd cite anyone making $250,000 per year....that whined about the possible repeal of the Bush "tax cuts."

There whining will be priceless when it comes up, again; just before the 2012 election. :)

dirk digler
03-08-2011, 07:59 AM
That's a BS argument. You're comparing a private sector income with a public sector income, ignoring the fact that the taxes from the private sector workers has to support the public sector workers.

I got no problem with public workers collective bargaining---

As long as the taxpayers have a representative at the negotiating table. Right now we have a quid pro quo between democrat politicians and unions, and grand larceny of the taxpayer.

What is the solution then? Do you want Blackwell Arms to become the local cops? Do you want Fireman Inc to be the local fire department but if you don't pay your monthly due they will let your house burn down. Or maybe if you don't pay the monthly cop due they will let anybody rape and murder people. Hell they will probably join in.

The fact is people don't decide to become teachers, police officers and firefighters to become rich. They do it because they love the job and it is rewarding to them. If it was about the money there would be no teachers etc etc

The Mad Crapper
03-08-2011, 08:00 AM
Well for one, I'd cite anyone making $250,000 per year....that whined about the possible repeal of the Bush "tax cuts."

There whining will be priceless when it comes up, again; just before the 2012 election. :)

That's a BS argument. You're comparing a private sector income with a public sector income, ignoring the fact that the taxes from the private sector workers has to support the public sector workers.

I got no problem with public workers collective bargaining---

As long as the taxpayers have a representative at the negotiating table. Right now we have a quid pro quo between democrat politicians and unions, and grand larceny of the taxpayer.

Saul Good
03-08-2011, 08:00 AM
There whining will be priceless when it comes up, again; just before the 2012 election. :)

Evidently anyone CAN be a teacher.

The Mad Crapper
03-08-2011, 08:01 AM
What is the solution then?

The taxpayer has representation at the bargaining table.

Saul Good
03-08-2011, 08:03 AM
They do it because they love the job and it is rewarding to them. If it was about the money there would be no teachers etc etc

This is the biggest lie there is about education.

I have attached the salary scale in my district. The LOWEST point on the scale is nearly $40,000. You don't think that we could fill jobs where the middle of the scale is $55K?

I'd say it would take about 2 minutes even if you only offered the bottom of the scale.

eazyb81
03-08-2011, 08:04 AM
The fact is people don't decide to become teachers, police officers and firefighters to become rich. They do it because they love the job and it is rewarding to them. If it was about the money there would be no teachers etc etc

This is outstanding.

Then why the f#ck are teachers and others bitching relentlessly about their precious entitlements?

Obviously we are nowhere close to reducing compensation to a level where these jobs are no longer attractive, because you basically have to have a family "in" or be a minority to get into the police or fire academy. There are endless waiting lists just to get your foot in the door.

Jenson71
03-08-2011, 08:04 AM
For a profession full of people who claim that they do it because they love to educate children, I have never seen a bigger bunch of whiny bitches in all my life. Seriously, what other profession even comes close?

Because only teachers strike or complain about their jobs. Not nurses, not factory workers, not professional athletes. Just teachers. A whole lot of whiny bitches.

dirk digler
03-08-2011, 08:05 AM
The taxpayer has representation at the bargaining table.

They do. That is what elections are for. It may not be the best system but it is the system we got.

Jenson71
03-08-2011, 08:06 AM
This is the biggest lie there is about education.

I have attached the salary scale in my district. The LOWEST point on the scale is nearly $40,000. You don't think that we could fill jobs where the middle of the scale is $55K?

I'd say it would take about 2 minutes even if you only offered the bottom of the scale.

Wow, they get paid pretty well at Shawnee. The lowest point around here is around $33K

Saul Good
03-08-2011, 08:07 AM
It takes a lot of skill and character to teach kids well. A lot of people will say that some of their greatest influences on their life was a teacher or two. It's a pretty important position.

My high school history teacher was the greatest man I've ever known. I strive to be like him. At times I feel that his influence on me is the only thing that keeps me from descending into apathy. Wow, I love that man.

Guess what? That teacher makes the same for being great as he would if he were an apathetic POS. My wife is a public school teacher, BTW.

The Mad Crapper
03-08-2011, 08:08 AM
They do. That is what elections are for. It may not be the best system but it is the system we got.

ROFL

Dirk, that is outrageous, and you know it.

Saul Good
03-08-2011, 08:08 AM
Wow, they get paid pretty well at Shawnee. The lowest point around here is around $33K

Think you couldn't fill jobs in your area that start at $33K?

Saul Good
03-08-2011, 08:09 AM
They do. That is what elections are for. It may not be the best system but it is the system we got.

And the unions vote en masse in these elections. The foxes are voting on who gets to guard the hen house.

Saul Good
03-08-2011, 08:11 AM
Because only teachers strike or complain about their jobs. Not nurses, not factory workers, not professional athletes. Just teachers. A whole lot of whiny bitches.

They are all a bunch of whiny union bitches. The teachers union just happens to be the worst offenders.

Jenson71
03-08-2011, 08:11 AM
Guess what? That teacher makes the same for being great as he would if he were an apathetic POS. My wife is a public school teacher, BTW.

That doesn't mean it doesn't take skill and character to teach kids well.

patteeu
03-08-2011, 08:12 AM
Of course you would. Yeah, maybe we can have HS dropouts take over teaching in public schools, and that way your desired end of destroying all public education will be expedited.

Nah, I'd look for people who have completed their education, but who care more about teaching kids than bargaining for a fat pension so they can double dip in their later years.

Saul Good
03-08-2011, 08:14 AM
That doesn't mean it doesn't take skill and character to teach kids well.

It takes skill. I don't know about character. Either way, the unions don't really care about skill nor character. You are either part of the union or you aren't.

Jenson71
03-08-2011, 08:14 AM
They are all a bunch of whiny union bitches. The teachers union just happens to be the worst offenders.

No, not all teachers are whiny union bitches. Some teachers in right-to-work states aren't even in the union at their school.

And some teachers don't like the union.

Do you have a learning disability?

dirk digler
03-08-2011, 08:15 AM
This is the biggest lie there is about education.

I have attached the salary scale in my district. The LOWEST point on the scale is nearly $40,000. You don't think that we could fill jobs where the middle of the scale is $55K?

I'd say it would take about 2 minutes even if you only offered the bottom of the scale.

No doubt that is a good wage and if it was like that everywhere that wouldn't be too bad.

Of course in Johnson County you could only afford an apartment at that wage :p

Jenson71
03-08-2011, 08:15 AM
It takes skill. I don't know about character. Either way, the unions don't really care about skill nor character. You are either part of the union or you aren't.

I feel like I'm talking to a 1986 version of Watson.

patteeu
03-08-2011, 08:15 AM
Wow. That pretty much says it all. Teachers are the equivalent of ditch diggers in the reactionary right's bizzarro wold. Nice.

:rolleyes:

Not the equivalent. Ditch diggers are probably in better shape physically. Do you look down your nose at ditch diggers? I'd bet that there are plenty of manual laborers who are intelligent enough to teach our kids if they have the right desire to do so. Let's face it, there are some pretty smart laborers out there just like there are some pretty dumb teachers.

Saul Good
03-08-2011, 08:17 AM
No, not all teachers are whiny union bitches. Some teachers in right-to-work states aren't even in the union at their school.

And some teachers don't like the union.

Do you have a learning disability?

If you'd gone to private schools, you'd probably have developed the reading comprehension skills to understand that "they" was referencing those who strike and complain about their jobs.

My wife isn't in the union, but that doesn't matter. She is still at the mercy of the union, as her salary, benefits, etc. is whatever THEY negotiate it to be.

dirk digler
03-08-2011, 08:18 AM
Guess what? That teacher makes the same for being great as he would if he were an apathetic POS. My wife is a public school teacher, BTW.

According to pat your wife is a POS ditch digger. Why did you marry someone so stupid? /pat

dirk digler
03-08-2011, 08:20 AM
ROFL

Dirk, that is outrageous, and you know it.

And the unions vote en masse in these elections. The foxes are voting on who gets to guard the hen house.

Then what is the solution?

The Mad Crapper
03-08-2011, 08:21 AM
They do. That is what elections are for. It may not be the best system but it is the system we got.

Dirk, do you know who the largest employer is in the United States? It's the federal government.

In some states, the largest employer is the state.

You can't say that elections are fair in a situation like that when you have a voting bloc that big, who's agenda is to take more and more money away from everyone else, and have the votes to keep their democrat in office who will continue to feed them.

Saul Good
03-08-2011, 08:22 AM
No doubt that is a good wage and if it was like that everywhere that wouldn't be too bad.

Of course in Johnson County you could only afford an apartment at that wage :p

Clinton Missouri:

The median income for a household in the city was $28,079, and the median income for a family was $32,378.

The starting salary for teachers is $29,000. (See attached.)

Saul Good
03-08-2011, 08:23 AM
According to pat your wife is a POS ditch digger. Why did you marry someone so stupid? /pat

I didn't see pat disparage ditch diggers.

Saul Good
03-08-2011, 08:24 AM
Then what is the solution?

Disallow collective bargaining for public employees.

Jenson71
03-08-2011, 08:24 AM
If you'd gone to private schools, you'd probably have developed the reading comprehension skills to understand that "they" was referencing those who strike and complain about their jobs.

My wife isn't in the union, but that doesn't matter. She is still at the mercy of the union, as her salary, benefits, etc. is whatever THEY negotiate it to be.

1) I did go to a private school from preschool through high school

2) You said, "For a profession full of people who claim that they do it because they love to educate children, I have never seen a bigger bunch of whiny bitches in all my life." Then you said "They are all a bunch of whiny union bitches." Unqualified, this unambigiously makes it sound as if you believe teachers are a bunch of whiny bitches. Perhaps you should develop the writing skills so you can clarify the meanings you wish your readers to take from your words.

patteeu
03-08-2011, 08:24 AM
It takes a lot of skill and character to teach kids well. A lot of people will say that some of their greatest influences on their life was a teacher or two. It's a pretty important position.

My high school history teacher was the greatest man I've ever known. I strive to be like him. At times I feel that his influence on me is the only thing that keeps me from descending into apathy. Wow, I love that man.

The type of skill and character that it takes to teach kids isn't the type of thing that comes from going to a teacher's college. The most important part of it is inherent in the person. The type of skill you need for making it at the highest levels of the financial world are not innate, they are developed through extensive training both in school and on the job.

There are many great teachers out there. A lot of them could have done something far more lucrative if they elected to chase money instead of the fulfillment they get from teaching. There are also a lot of dolts and plenty of whining victims who followed the path of the teacher because it was easier than doing something else. The latter are the ones we could easily replace.

The Mad Crapper
03-08-2011, 08:26 AM
1) I did go to a private school from preschool through high school


.

Saul Good
03-08-2011, 08:27 AM
I feel like I'm talking to a 1986 version of Watson.

Do you think that there are no teachers who educate their students well but happen to be of low character? I know for a fact that there are because I know them personally.

As far as the unions go, they don't care about the skill nor character of the teachers. The best and worst teachers make the same amount as long as they fall into the same spot on the grid.

Jenson71
03-08-2011, 08:27 AM
The type of skill and character that it takes to teach kids isn't the type of thing that comes from going to a teacher's college. The most important part of it is inherent in the person. The type of skill you need for making it at the highest levels of the financial world are not innate, they are developed through extensive training both in school and on the job.

There are many great teachers out there. A lot of them could have done something far more lucrative if they elected to chase money instead of the fulfillment they get from teaching. There are also a lot of dolts and plenty of whining victims who followed the path of the teacher because it was easier than doing something else. The latter are the ones we could easily replace.

Let's put in a solid effort in paying our due respect to the former. It would be a shame if we threw out the good in order to get a few bad.

Saul Good
03-08-2011, 08:30 AM
2) You said, "For a profession full of people who claim that they do it because they love to educate children, I have never seen a bigger bunch of whiny bitches in all my life." Then you said "They are all a bunch of whiny union bitches." Unqualified, this unambigiously makes it sound as if you believe teachers are a bunch of whiny bitches. Perhaps you should develop the writing skills so you can clarify the meanings you wish your readers to take from your words.

I guess you would have a point if I didn't quote your post that referred to those who were whining and picketing.

patteeu
03-08-2011, 08:30 AM
What is the solution then? Do you want Blackwell Arms to become the local cops? Do you want Fireman Inc to be the local fire department but if you don't pay your monthly due they will let your house burn down. Or maybe if you don't pay the monthly cop due they will let anybody rape and murder people. Hell they will probably join in.

The fact is people don't decide to become teachers, police officers and firefighters to become rich. They do it because they love the job and it is rewarding to them. If it was about the money there would be no teachers etc etc

The fact is that some do it for those reasons, but others become teachers because it's easy or because they think they'll like working with kids but then find out that it's not so much fun. It's these latter folks, like Kotter, who end up whining about how they are victimized by society and they end up poisoning the good teachers around them to some extent.

Compare Mr. Kotter with NewChief. I don't hear NewChief whining about teacher salaries compared to executive bonuses all the time. He's a liberal so he probably thinks those high dollar executives ought to be taxed like there's no tomorrow, but he doesn't go on and on whining about his own situation. I think he's probably the kind of guy who is a great teacher because he cares about his kids and doesn't spend a whole lot of time wallowing in self-pity because of the career path he chose for himself. If he ever gets to the point where teaching isn't his cup of tea anymore, I see him just changing careers instead of whining about how he's underpaid. Mr. Kotter takes a different approach and I don't particularly care for it.

Jenson71
03-08-2011, 08:31 AM
Do you think that there are no teachers who educate their students well but happen to be of low character? I know for a fact that there are because I know them personally.

No, I think those two ideas are antithetical.

As far as the unions go, they don't care about the skill nor character of the teachers. The best and worst teachers make the same amount as long as they fall into the same spot on the grid.

Unions care about 1) the protection of the union, and then, 2) the protection of the teacher's rights. In utopia, we would never have problems with unions protecting bad teachers. But dang, this is real life.

Saul Good
03-08-2011, 08:31 AM
Let's put in a solid effort in paying our due respect to the former. It would be a shame if we threw out the good in order to get a few bad.

I agree. Let's not fire all teachers. Let's stop dealing with them collectively and start rewarding/disciplining them on their merits.

Lzen
03-08-2011, 08:33 AM
http://i.imgur.com/KZFQa.jpg

You forgot to include national health care.

Jenson71
03-08-2011, 08:33 AM
I guess you would have a point if I didn't quote your post that referred to those who were whining and picketing.

You didn't quote any post in your first comment. I hadn't even posted in the thread before you posted. You screwed up, but you've changed your tune, so I'm over it. Mistakes happen, walk it off.

dirk digler
03-08-2011, 08:35 AM
Dirk, do you know who the largest employer is in the United States? It's the federal government.

In some states, the largest employer is the state.

You can't say that elections are fair in a situation like that when you have a voting bloc that big, who's agenda is to take more and more money away from everyone else, and have the votes to keep their democrat in office who will continue to feed them.

Which states fill that criteria? California? Texas?

Saul Good
03-08-2011, 08:35 AM
No, I think those two ideas are antithetical.



Unions care about 1) the protection of the union, and then, 2) the protection of the teacher's rights. In utopia, we would never have problems with unions protecting bad teachers. But dang, this is real life.

Where is the care for the taxpayers? Where is the care for the students? I'm not asking for a situation where bad teachers should never be protected, but that should be the goal. It's not even a concern under our current system.

patteeu
03-08-2011, 08:36 AM
Then what is the solution?

It seems obvious. Don't allow public employee unions.

Jenson71
03-08-2011, 08:36 AM
Where is the care for the taxpayers? Where is the care for the students? I'm not asking for a situation where bad teachers should never be protected, but that should be the goal. It's not even a concern under our current system.

It's not the union's goal to care for the taxpayers. It's not the unions goal to care for the students. That falls on the school board.

patteeu
03-08-2011, 08:37 AM
I didn't see pat disparage ditch diggers.

It's funny how dirk and Mr. Kotter look down their noses at ditch diggers as if their careers somehow make them better.

Jenson71
03-08-2011, 08:38 AM
I agree. Let's not fire all teachers. Let's stop dealing with them collectively and start rewarding/disciplining them on their merits.

I would think collective bargaining is much more efficient and productive than individual bargaining, especially in the school setting. That would be chaotic.

Saul Good
03-08-2011, 08:38 AM
You didn't quote any post in your first comment. I hadn't even posted in the thread before you posted. You screwed up, but you've changed your tune, so I'm over it. Mistakes happen, walk it off.

No mistake. The unqualified, unambiguous use of the word "all" was used in my second post, not my first. My second post was specific to your quote about those who picket.

Saul Good
03-08-2011, 08:38 AM
I would think collective bargaining is much more efficient and productive than individual bargaining, especially in the school setting. That would be chaotic.

Why is that?

dirk digler
03-08-2011, 08:39 AM
Clinton Missouri:

The median income for a household in the city was $28,079, and the median income for a family was $32,378.

The starting salary for teachers is $29,000. (See attached.)

I will admit it is better than that it was especially for this town.

As I have pointed out a few times on here I worked for the Sheriff's Department 10 years ago. My take home pay was $980/month with no health insurance and was supporting my wife and a newborn.

Is it better now? I know it is but it wasn't always the case.

Saul Good
03-08-2011, 08:39 AM
It's funny how dirk and Mr. Kotter look down their noses at ditch diggers as if their careers somehow make them better.

Yet I see a lot more stupid kids than I see crooked ditches.

Baby Lee
03-08-2011, 08:42 AM
Not the equivalent. Ditch diggers are probably in better shape physically. Do you look down your nose at ditch diggers? I'd bet that there are plenty of manual laborers who are intelligent enough to teach our kids if they have the right desire to do so. Let's face it, there are some pretty smart laborers out there just like there are some pretty dumb teachers.

Adam Carolla isn't in the gym when Jimmy Kimmel drops by for sparring/training, and he's still swinging his hammer with the esse day laborers.

patteeu
03-08-2011, 08:42 AM
Let's put in a solid effort in paying our due respect to the former. It would be a shame if we threw out the good in order to get a few bad.

Let's not let the bad tarnish the reputations of the good. Let's stop treating teachers like interchangeable union-member parts. Let's give meritocracy a try.

Saul Good
03-08-2011, 08:42 AM
I will admit it is better than that it was especially for this town.

As I have pointed out a few times on here I worked for the Sheriff's Department 10 years ago. My take home pay was $980/month with no health insurance and was supporting my wife and a newborn.

Is it better now? I know it is but it wasn't always the case.

Then can we at least put to rest the silly notion that teachers aren't well-paid? I haven't even touched on the fact that these teachers don't have to contribute to their health insurance costs, only work 185 days a year, get off at 4:00, etc.

patteeu
03-08-2011, 08:44 AM
I would think collective bargaining is much more efficient and productive than individual bargaining, especially in the school setting. That would be chaotic.

There are a lot of people who work for large organizations that hire, compensate, and fire their employees individually on the basis of merit. The chaos that you fear is easily managed.

Jenson71
03-08-2011, 08:44 AM
Why is that?

Wouldn't it take up a lot of time and resources for administrators to sit down and talk to all, say, 100 teachers in the school and pound out a contract's details with them? Teacher one wants to work from 7-2, and teacher two wants to work from 9-4. You'd have mismatched schedules. I think it would conform into the employer/administrator writing out a single contract that the teacher could accept or decline. And for efficiency sake, the teachers would form some sort of group that would respond to that. Constructive collective bargaining.

Saul Good
03-08-2011, 08:46 AM
Wouldn't it take up a lot of time and resources for administrators to sit down and talk to all, say, 100 teachers in the school and pound out a contract's details with them? Teacher one wants to work from 7-2, and teacher two wants to work from 9-4. You'd have mismatched schedules. I think it would conform into the employer/administrator writing out a single contract that the teacher could accept or decline. And for efficiency sake, the teachers would form some sort of group that would respond to that. Constructive collective bargaining.

Is that how it works in private schools?

Jenson71
03-08-2011, 08:46 AM
Let's not let the bad tarnish the reputations of the good. Let's stop treating teachers like interchangeable union-member parts. Let's give meritocracy a try.

A great way to not let the bad tarnish the reputations of the good is to not make statements like "they are all a bunch of whiny bitches." I'm sure you can agree with that.

Jenson71
03-08-2011, 08:49 AM
Is that how it works in private schools?

I'm not really sure how it works in private schools, but I think there's probably a less adversarial atmosphere there. I could be wrong, though.

patteeu
03-08-2011, 08:51 AM
Wouldn't it take up a lot of time and resources for administrators to sit down and talk to all, say, 100 teachers in the school and pound out a contract's details with them? Teacher one wants to work from 7-2, and teacher two wants to work from 9-4. You'd have mismatched schedules. I think it would conform into the employer/administrator writing out a single contract that the teacher could accept or decline. And for efficiency sake, the teachers would form some sort of group that would respond to that. Constructive collective bargaining.

I know you don't particularly like to hear these things, but posts like the one above won't happen any more after you get out of school and experience real life. One teacher might want to work from 7-2, but if the school hours are 7:30-3:30, then they'll either work those hours or find a different job, with rare exceptions.

dirk digler
03-08-2011, 08:51 AM
The fact is that some do it for those reasons, but others become teachers because it's easy or because they think they'll like working with kids but then find out that it's not so much fun. It's these latter folks, like Kotter, who end up whining about how they are victimized by society and they end up poisoning the good teachers around them to some extent.

Compare Mr. Kotter with NewChief. I don't hear NewChief whining about teacher salaries compared to executive bonuses all the time. He's a liberal so he probably thinks those high dollar executives ought to be taxed like there's no tomorrow, but he doesn't go on and on whining about his own situation. I think he's probably the kind of guy who is a great teacher because he cares about his kids and doesn't spend a whole lot of time wallowing in self-pity because of the career path he chose for himself. If he ever gets to the point where teaching isn't his cup of tea anymore, I see him just changing careers instead of whining about how he's underpaid. Mr. Kotter takes a different approach and I don't particularly care for it.

There is people that chooses jobs for the wrong reasons everywhere whether it is public or private.

I don't believe Kotter isn't whining about his pay I believe his problem is the characterization that teachers are worthless and living high off the government tit.

But he could answer that better than I.

patteeu
03-08-2011, 08:51 AM
A great way to not let the bad tarnish the reputations of the good is to not make statements like "they are all a bunch of whiny bitches." I'm sure you can agree with that.

Which "all" are you talking about?

Jenson71
03-08-2011, 08:52 AM
I know you don't particularly like to hear these things, but posts like the one above won't happen any more after you get out of school and experience real life. One teacher might want to work from 7-2, but if the school hours are 7:30-3:30, then they'll either work those hours or find a different job, with rare exceptions.

That is theoretically impossible. Let me check my books and get back to you.

Jenson71
03-08-2011, 08:53 AM
Which "all" are you talking about?

Teachers.

Saul Good
03-08-2011, 08:53 AM
I'm not really sure how it works in private schools, but I think there's probably a less adversarial atmosphere there. I could be wrong, though.

You think it's more adversarial when the unions get to vote for the school board, and the people handing out the compensation aren't paying it out of their own pockets?

Here's a little experiment. Go ask a couple of waitresses who they want to see sit down in their section and why. What do you think they will say?

patteeu
03-08-2011, 08:54 AM
There is people that chooses jobs for the wrong reasons everywhere whether it is public or private.

So are you saying you agree with me?

I don't believe Kotter isn't whining about his pay I believe his problem is the characterization that teachers are worthless and living high off the government tit.

But he could answer that better than I.

Post #6 says you're wrong.

Saul Good
03-08-2011, 08:54 AM
Teachers.

Yeah. We shouldn't lump all teachers in there, just those who are bitch and picket. I agree.

Saul Good
03-08-2011, 08:56 AM
There is people that chooses jobs for the wrong reasons everywhere whether it is public or private.

True, and private businesses are free to deal with those employees as they see fit. The profit motive encourages them to do so in as efficient manner as possible. This doesn't exist in the public sector.

Jenson71
03-08-2011, 08:56 AM
patteeu can easily deride Kotter because Kotter is more emotional than someone like NewPhin, who is relatively laidback and intelligent. Kotter's posts are often defensive or offensive and feature exaggerated rhetoric.

Being a history/government teacher makes one an easy target in a forum that is heavy on history and government talk. If you don't look like an expert, and Kotter does not, then you're in for some heat.

Saul Good
03-08-2011, 08:58 AM
So are you saying you agree with me?



Post #6 says you're wrong.
Alnorth: We can't afford to pay teachers as much as what you think we should pay. I don't care if you think its unfair, hire less qualified, less educated teachers if you have to, I will not vote for a state or local tax increase. Period.



Kotter: That's a sure way to destroy all public education in the country, ain't it?

Jenson71
03-08-2011, 08:58 AM
You think it's more adversarial when the unions get to vote for the school board, and the people handing out the compensation aren't paying it out of their own pockets?

I'm not understanding this question. Could you rephrase it?

patteeu
03-08-2011, 08:58 AM
Teachers.

OK, I just wanted to make sure you weren't talking about the same "all" that Saul was. Blanket statements like that don't help, but they don't do anything close to the damage that bad, greedy teachers who put their own selfish interests ahead of their kids by skipping school to show up at the State Capitol for a protest being broadcast to the entire nation do.

Jenson71
03-08-2011, 09:00 AM
Yeah. We shouldn't lump all teachers in there, just those who are bitch and picket. I agree.

That's still too broad a generalization for me. I don't think all teachers, everywhere, who strike, are whiny bitches. I think strikes can come from very legitimate grievances.

patteeu
03-08-2011, 09:01 AM
patteeu can easily deride Kotter because Kotter is more emotional than someone like NewPhin, who is relatively laidback and intelligent. Kotter's posts are often defensive or offensive and feature exaggerated rhetoric.

Being a history/government teacher makes one an easy target in a forum that is heavy on history and government talk. If you don't look like an expert, and Kotter does not, then you're in for some heat.

Ouch. :Bartee:

Saul Good
03-08-2011, 09:01 AM
patteeu can easily deride Kotter because Kotter is more emotional than someone like NewPhin, who is relatively laidback and intelligent. Kotter's posts are often defensive or offensive and feature exaggerated rhetoric.

Being a history/government teacher makes one an easy target in a forum that is heavy on history and government talk. If you don't look like an expert, and Kotter does not, then you're in for some heat.

Shouldn't a history/government teacher be able to hold his own with posters on a football message board when the topics turn to history/government?

I would expect that a ditch digger would be able to talk circles around the average poster on here regarding all matters of plotting, trenching, calculating depth, back-filling, reinforcement, etc.

dirk digler
03-08-2011, 09:02 AM
So are you saying you agree with me?



Post #6 says you're wrong.

Yes. There are teachers, police officers etc who pick jobs for the wrong reasons. I would say the vast majority do it for the right reasons though.

Jenson71
03-08-2011, 09:03 AM
Hold on. I'm not saying that Kotter isn't an expert on history and government. I'm just saying that for whatever reason (better things to do, doesn't care, poor writing skills), his delivery isn't particularly strong.

Saul Good
03-08-2011, 09:05 AM
I'm not understanding this question. Could you rephrase it?

Public school teachers are, essentially, working for their peers. What's more is that these peers are paying them with someone else's money. This actually makes for a pretty amicable scenario as it's basically members of the same union negotiating with each other. When you add in the fact that the employees are the same people who voted for the employers, you don't have an adversarial relationship.

Private schools are for-profit organizations. Every dollar paid to the employees is a dollar less that the employer profits, and the employers aren't elected to their positions by the employees. <---adversarial

Saul Good
03-08-2011, 09:06 AM
Hold on. I'm not saying that Kotter isn't an expert on history and government. I'm just saying that for whatever reason (better things to do, doesn't care, poor writing skills), his delivery isn't particularly strong.

Sounds like a glowing recommendation for a history/government teacher.

Jenson71
03-08-2011, 09:11 AM
Public school teachers are, essentially, working for their peers. What's more is that these peers are paying them with someone else's money. This actually makes for a pretty amicable scenario as it's basically members of the same union negotiating with each other. When you add in the fact that the employees are the same people who voted for the employers, you don't have an adversarial relationship.

Private schools are for-profit organizations. Every dollar paid to the employees is a dollar less that the employer profits, and the employers aren't elected to their positions by the employees. <---adversarial

No, I think it is the opposite situation in ways. The union does not negotiate with another union, much less 'the same union'. The union negotiates with a school board and an administration. And these can be very intense battles.

There's some connection in state-wide unions and state governments, though, which is what some people have seen as the big problem.

Jenson71
03-08-2011, 09:12 AM
Sounds like a glowing recommendation for a history/government teacher.

I presume he just has better things to do then sit around here and debate during the working days. If true, I'd say he's a lot more productive than us.

Dave Lane
03-08-2011, 09:15 AM
Honestly, that's fair enough. Cut the college degree requirements and hire kids straight of high school. Everyone wins.

Why stop there floppy? I know a couple of kids at the local Taco Bell that would like do it for $6 an hour just for the lutz.

Saul Good
03-08-2011, 09:15 AM
I presume he just has better things to do then sit around here and debate during the working days. If true, I'd say he's a lot more productive than us.

He's still posting on other threads. As for myself, I am wildly unproductive today. I just finished negotiating a new position, and I'm taking a little time off before I start. No collective bargaining for me, thanks. (Of course, I will have to pay for part of my health insurance premiums, so maybe the joke's on me.)

dirk digler
03-08-2011, 09:18 AM
He's still posting on other threads. As for myself, I am wildly unproductive today. I just finished negotiating a new position, and I'm taking a little time off before I start. No collective bargaining for me, thanks. (Of course, I will have to pay for part of my health insurance premiums, so maybe the joke's on me.)

So you took the job at the other employer?

Saul Good
03-08-2011, 09:28 AM
So you took the job at the other employer?

I did. Hopefully I made the right choice. I wanted to wait a few more weeks before starting, but they talked me out of it. (And by "talked" I mean threw a nice signing bonus my way while threatening to go another direction if I didn't accept their start date.)

dirk digler
03-08-2011, 09:34 AM
I did. Hopefully I made the right choice. I wanted to wait a few more weeks before starting, but they talked me out of it. (And by "talked" I mean threw a nice signing bonus my way while threatening to go another direction if I didn't accept their start date.)

Awesome! Congrats

And it sounds like there was some collective bargaining with threats and then more money exchanged :p

patteeu
03-08-2011, 09:35 AM
I did. Hopefully I made the right choice. I wanted to wait a few more weeks before starting, but they talked me out of it. (And by "talked" I mean threw a nice signing bonus my way while threatening to go another direction if I didn't accept their start date.)

Congratulations. Good luck in the new job.

Mr. Kotter
03-08-2011, 09:35 AM
...I don't believe Kotter isn't whining about his pay I believe his problem is the characterization that teachers are worthless and living high off the government tit....

Yeah. But facts won't matter to folks like patty. :rolleyes:

Saul Good
03-08-2011, 09:38 AM
Awesome! Congrats

And it sounds like there was some collective bargaining with threats and then more money exchanged :p

Nothing collective about it, rugged individualism at its finest. Now it's cold and rainy, and I'm bored.

ClevelandBronco
03-08-2011, 09:39 AM
Ditch digging is the kind of job where I'd expect to find union protection.

Saul Good
03-08-2011, 09:41 AM
Yeah. But facts won't matter to folks like patty. :rolleyes:

He seemed interested in the fact that you said that not being able to afford to pay teachers as much as you want would, well, I'll let you read it...


Alnorth: We can't afford to pay teachers as much as what you think we should pay. I don't care if you think its unfair, hire less qualified, less educated teachers if you have to, I will not vote for a state or local tax increase. Period.



Kotter: That's a sure way to destroy all public education in the country, ain't it?

Saul Good
03-08-2011, 09:42 AM
Ditch digging is the kind of job where I'd expect to find union protection.

Ditch digging is a job that union protection was designed to help.

Mr. Kotter
03-08-2011, 09:43 AM
Hold on. I'm not saying that Kotter isn't an expert on history and government. I'm just saying that for whatever reason (better things to do, doesn't care, poor writing skills), his delivery isn't particularly strong.

That's because too many folks don't care about facts; if they did, they wouldn't listen to and parrot clowns like Limbaugh, Beck, and Hannity. Experience tells me that facts are wasted breath....thus, I do what they do, in a discussion forum like this. What's the point of calm and rational discussions, when no one's responding to those threads?

For me, this place is an outlet for emotion and humor; it's a luxury I don't have much in real life, so it comes out here. It's where I vent. Sorry if you find that use of the forum offensive, but it is what it is.

dirk digler
03-08-2011, 09:45 AM
Yeah. But facts won't matter to folks like patty. :rolleyes:

Ok so to clear the air for everyone what are your feelings toward teacher pay and the job of teaching?

Mr. Kotter
03-08-2011, 09:52 AM
He seemed interested in the fact that you said that not being able to afford to pay teachers as much as you want would, well, I'll let you read it...


Alnorth: We can't afford to pay teachers as much as what you think we should pay. I don't care if you think its unfair, hire less qualified, less educated teachers if you have to, I will not vote for a state or local tax increase. Period.



Kotter: That's a sure way to destroy all public education in the country, ain't it?

Dude....my personal situation is irrelevant; if it gets too bad, I'll make a change. My view, here, is of the profession as a whole, throughout the nation.

Patty's view of an endless supply of highly qualified teachers working for even less money....is pure fantasy. The result will be less qualified teachers, worse schools, and a less effective public school system. Which, again, is probably their goal anyway.

FTR, I'm with my 9 yr old daughter and 7 yr old son....sick, doctor, now baby-sitting. My turn today. Congrats on your new job, BTW.

Saul Good
03-08-2011, 09:56 AM
Dude....my personal situation is irrelevant; if it gets too bad, I'll make a change. My view, here, is of the profession as a whole, throughout the nation.

You weren't talking about your personal situation. You said "all public education in the country".


Patty's view of an endless supply of highly qualified teachers working for even less money....is pure fantasy. The result will be less qualified teachers, worse schools, and a less effective public school system. Which, again, is probably their goal anyway.

This is a mischaracterization of patteeu's position, but there are plenty of people who would be happy to work for what teachers make or even less.

Congrats on your new job, BTW.

Thanks

dirk digler
03-08-2011, 09:57 AM
Patty's view of an endless supply of highly qualified teachers working for even less money....is pure fantasy. The result will be less qualified teachers, worse schools, and a less effective public school system. Which, again, is probably their goal anyway.



IIRC pat and others that were against the health care bill used the opposite stance.

They stated one of the bad things about it was it would lower doctor's pay and then qualified doctors would leave the profession or potential doctor's wouldn't join.

But for the teachers teaching students how to be doctors well fuck em

LMAO

Saul Good
03-08-2011, 10:01 AM
IIRC pat and others that were against the health care bill used the opposite stance.

They stated one of the bad things about it was it would lower doctor's pay and then qualified doctors would leave the profession or potential doctor's wouldn't join.

But for the teachers teaching students how to be doctors well fuck em

LMAO

Wow. Your ability to synthesize these arguments is horrifyingly poor.

Donger
03-08-2011, 10:04 AM
Can someone clue me in? Where's the hypocrisy?

Mr. Kotter
03-08-2011, 10:06 AM
Ok so to clear the air for everyone what are your feelings toward teacher pay and the job of teaching?

In some parts of the country, teachers are underpaid; in others, they are overpaid. It depends entirely on specific circumstances.

I agree, philosophically, that a move toward more of a merit based system is fair; the biggest problem with that, is the same reactionaries now claiming that teachers are over-paid....will be the first to refuse to properly fund any real merit pay system. It's also complicated by the fact that, merit pay in teaching would be very, very difficult to implement and evaluate because of so many variables and factors that would be involved. It is certainly worthy of a serious look, though.

I've said before....I do consider teaching something of a calling. If and when, however, it is no longer a net positive in a cost-benefit analysis, then I'll either move....or sell real estate or used cars, or whatever. I've never failed at anything I've ever done; I'd survive...even if I might forfeit some of the job satisfaction and sense of reward I've been blessed with, thus far in life. However, I'm beginning to approach the age when such a "change" could be more difficult.

Yes, you are right, though. My real beef is with the insults and disparagement that the profession is taking, particularly in reactionary right camps, whose real motive is nothing more than continuing to lower taxes for themselves and the privileged elites they are whoring for.

HonestChieffan
03-08-2011, 10:07 AM
If teachers were allowed to teach education would improve. And if the objective of schools was education and learning, things would improve.

If teachers didn't have to deal with all the crap that results from mandates by state and federal agencies, education would improve.

If school boards had more say over how money is spent and what is the most important areas for investment...schools would improve.

Ask any School board member what they can and cannot do...what is mandated by the state and fed (and not funded)...what do they spend on that given the option, they would not...it will blow you away.

Teachers catch a world of shit they do not deserve. And some that they do. My wife's biggest objection to the teachers union was they never stood up for education.

Kotter pointed out how some schools make teachers promote a kid regardless of performance and learning/mastery. Good example where the teachers union could bring the power of thors hammer down and object and use the power they have instead of spending time on less productive and inwardly directed efforts.

Mr. Kotter
03-08-2011, 10:07 AM
IIRC pat and others that were against the health care bill used the opposite stance.

They stated one of the bad things about it was it would lower doctor's pay and then qualified doctors would leave the profession or potential doctor's wouldn't join.

But for the teachers teaching students how to be doctors well **** em

LMAO

Beautiful irony, ain't it? Just like the hypocrisy of FOX that Stewart so brilliantly skewers in the OP. Heh.

LMAO

dirk digler
03-08-2011, 10:11 AM
Wow. Your ability to synthesize these arguments is horrifyingly poor.

Why?

The argument back then was government single payer would reduce doctor's pay and benefits which in turn would reduce people wanting to be doctors or doctors quitting in mass.

But then we expect the opposite to happen when it comes to teachers? Less pay but more qualified teachers?

ClevelandBronco
03-08-2011, 10:12 AM
I agree, philosophically, that a move toward more of a merit based system is fair; the biggest problem with that, is the same reactionaries now claiming that teachers are over-paid....will be the first to refuse to properly fund any real merit pay system.

Funding it isn't a problem. Pay increases for the better teachers would be offset by pay decreases for the poorer teachers.

Saul Good
03-08-2011, 10:14 AM
Teachers catch a world of shit they do not deserve. And some that they do. My wife's biggest objection to the teachers union was they never stood up for education.

That's a pretty big freaking deal. Lincoln's biggest objection to the play was that one of the actors shot him in the head.

The teachers union undermines education and taxpayers alike. As long as teachers continue to fund the unions, they deserve what they get.

Saul Good
03-08-2011, 10:16 AM
Why?

The argument back then was government single payer would reduce doctor's pay and benefits which in turn would reduce people wanting to be doctors or doctors quitting in mass.

But then we expect the opposite to happen when it comes to teachers? Less pay but more qualified teachers?

Putting artificial caps on what professionals are allowed to make discourages the best and brightest from entering a profession. Sound familiar? Collective bargaining doesn't just prop up the worst employees, it pushes down the best.

The Mad Crapper
03-08-2011, 10:18 AM
That's because too many folks don't care about facts; if they did, they wouldn't listen to and parrot clowns like Limbaugh, Beck, and Hannity. Experience tells me that facts are wasted breath....thus, I do what they do, in a discussion forum like this. What's the point of calm and rational discussions, when no one's responding to those threads?

For me, this place is an outlet for emotion and humor; it's a luxury I don't have much in real life, so it comes out here. It's where I vent. Sorry if you find that use of the forum offensive, but it is what it is.

I don't know what is funnier, the comments themselves, or the fact that your were addressing Jenson with them.

ROFL

dirk digler
03-08-2011, 10:24 AM
Putting artificial caps on what professionals are allowed to make discourages the best and brightest from entering a profession. Sound familiar? Collective bargaining doesn't just prop up the worst employees, it pushes down the best.

Then that applies to teachers as well? Pay better get better teachers

I was just reading one of NewPhin's post about teacher pay. He said their district paid good but a teacher that retires after 30 years can only make 66K.

Which is 22K difference from when they were hired.

Saul Good
03-08-2011, 10:28 AM
Then that applies to teachers as well? Pay better get better teachers

It absolutely applies to teachers. That's my point. The best teachers get paid the same as the worst (provided that they are on the same box of the pay grid) because of the way the contracts are constructed.

I was just reading one of NewPhin's post about teacher pay. He said their district paid good but a teacher that retires after 30 years can only make 66K.

Do you think a doctor would work for 66k after 30 years?

What does a doctor's pay have to do with a teacher's pay? I don't think that most doctors would work for that amount of pay, but teachers aren't worth what doctors are worth.

Saul Good
03-08-2011, 10:30 AM
I was just reading one of NewPhin's post about teacher pay. He said their district paid good but a teacher that retires after 30 years can only make 66K.

Which is 22K difference from when they were hired.

This doesn't make any sense. Are you saying that the teacher was hired 30 years ago for $44,000? That would be like a teacher's pay starting at $100,000+ today.

My wife started teaching at age 21. If she retires at age 51 and gets paid $66k (in today's dollars) per year to be retired, that's a pretty good fucking deal. (For us, that is. It's a pretty bad fucking deal for the taxpayers who will be on the hook for over $2,500,000 to pay a teacher to be retired.)

HonestChieffan
03-08-2011, 10:30 AM
Putting artificial caps on what professionals are allowed to make discourages the best and brightest from entering a profession. Sound familiar? Collective bargaining doesn't just prop up the worst employees, it pushes down the best.

sort of similar to progressive taxation where success is assigned a penalty......

Donger
03-08-2011, 10:32 AM
I take it that no teacher has been forced into becoming a teacher? If not, then I fail to see the logic behind bitching about the pay.

Jenson71
03-08-2011, 10:33 AM
That's because too many folks don't care about facts; if they did, they wouldn't listen to and parrot clowns like Limbaugh, Beck, and Hannity. Experience tells me that facts are wasted breath....thus, I do what they do, in a discussion forum like this. What's the point of calm and rational discussions, when no one's responding to those threads?

For me, this place is an outlet for emotion and humor; it's a luxury I don't have much in real life, so it comes out here. It's where I vent. Sorry if you find that use of the forum offensive, but it is what it is.

I don't find it offensive at all. I find it completely understable, actually.

patteeu
03-08-2011, 10:38 AM
IIRC pat and others that were against the health care bill used the opposite stance.

They stated one of the bad things about it was it would lower doctor's pay and then qualified doctors would leave the profession or potential doctor's wouldn't join.

But for the teachers teaching students how to be doctors well **** em

LMAO

Don't forget that teachers are more like ditch diggers than doctors or high finance experts. We have an abundance of teachers at the current price point.

The Mad Crapper
03-08-2011, 10:40 AM
I take it that no teacher has been forced into becoming a teacher? If not, then I fail to see the logic behind bitching about the pay.

Because they are moonbats.

patteeu
03-08-2011, 10:46 AM
Then that applies to teachers as well? Pay better get better teachers

I was just reading one of NewPhin's post about teacher pay. He said their district paid good but a teacher that retires after 30 years can only make 66K.

Which is 22K difference from when they were hired.

NewChief appears to be a pretty good teacher and that 66K seemed to be enough to attract him. If you maxed the pay scale out at $200k, do you think that your best teachers would be 3x better than NewChief? I don't.

SNR
03-08-2011, 10:47 AM
IIRC pat and others that were against the health care bill used the opposite stance.

They stated one of the bad things about it was it would lower doctor's pay and then qualified doctors would leave the profession or potential doctor's wouldn't join.

But for the teachers teaching students how to be doctors well fuck em

LMAOWho teaches students how to be doctors?

(Hint: It's not somebody who only has a bachelor's and/or master's degree in education)

patteeu
03-08-2011, 10:48 AM
I don't find it offensive at all. I find it completely understable, actually.

It was kind of mean of you to call Kotter relatively unintelligent compared to NewChief.

Saul Good
03-08-2011, 10:51 AM
Who teaches students how to be doctors?

(Hint: It's not somebody who only has a bachelor's and/or master's degree in education)

Are medical school professionals' contracts determined by collective bargaining?

SNR
03-08-2011, 10:52 AM
Are medical school professionals' contracts determined by collective bargaining?Some are, some aren't

Mr. Kotter
03-08-2011, 10:57 AM
... We have an abundance of teachers at the current price point.

Either you already know this is pure fantasy, or you'd provide some reasonably credible source for such hogwash. :rolleyes:

Jenson71
03-08-2011, 10:58 AM
It was kind of mean of you to call Kotter relatively unintelligent compared to NewChief.

I didn't mean to suggest that. I only meant that Kotter's posts are more emotional, bleeding heart.

Mr. Kotter
03-08-2011, 10:58 AM
It was kind of mean of you to call Kotter relatively unintelligent compared to NewChief.

LMAO

Keep tryin'....patty

HonestChieffan
03-08-2011, 11:08 AM
I didn't mean to suggest that. I only meant that Kotter's posts are more emotional, bleeding heart.


Hold on. I'm not saying that Kotter isn't an expert on history and government. I'm just saying that for whatever reason (better things to do, doesn't care, poor writing skills), his delivery isn't particularly strong.

Anything you care to add?

Jenson71
03-08-2011, 11:10 AM
I think he's also charming and quite handsome.

mlyonsd
03-08-2011, 11:11 AM
.........and quite handsome.

Now we know you're lying.



(Sorry Rob, couldn't pass it up)

RaiderH8r
03-08-2011, 11:22 AM
My wife is an attorney in DC with a degree from Georgetown Law. She does public interest work representing children with disabilities to ensure they're provided appropriate services under IDEA etc. Point is, her pay is $10K BELOW the AVERAGE salary for a teacher in DC. Now, she's mader her choice, she's doing the Lord's work but for teachers to cry the blues while holding a bag of cash is offensive. Sure, they can have their money. It is right over there tied up in Medicare/Medicaid/Social Security. Go get it.

patteeu
03-08-2011, 12:00 PM
Either you already know this is pure fantasy, or you'd provide some reasonably credible source for such hogwash. :rolleyes:

Or alternatively, I'm right and I'm not going to bother trying to prove what we all already know.

dirk digler
03-08-2011, 12:23 PM
This doesn't make any sense. Are you saying that the teacher was hired 30 years ago for $44,000? That would be like a teacher's pay starting at $100,000+ today.

My wife started teaching at age 21. If she retires at age 51 and gets paid $66k (in today's dollars) per year to be retired, that's a pretty good fucking deal. (For us, that is. It's a pretty bad fucking deal for the taxpayers who will be on the hook for over $2,500,000 to pay a teacher to be retired.)

This is what he said

Varies from state to state and city to city. In my town, someone starting out with a Masters starts out at $44,000 and tops out at $66k with 30 years of experience. That is why I edited the previous post I made. They are getting basically a standard living adjustment every year of course that is if they are not asked to take a pay cut or have large chunks of money taken out of their pay for something they were promised.

dirk digler
03-08-2011, 12:32 PM
Clinton Missouri:

The median income for a household in the city was $28,079, and the median income for a family was $32,378.

The starting salary for teachers is $29,000. (See attached.)

I want to come back to this post because I was just thinking over lunch how bad this salary is.

I quit my job at the Sheriff's Dept to go work as an Assistant Mgr in a Fast Food Restaurant making $35-36,000/ year. That was over 10 years ago.

How it does square that a fast food manager makes more starting out than a freaking college educated teacher.

There is something wrong with that. I put my life on the line every day for $12000 a year with no benefits or insurance. I must have been crazy

patteeu
03-08-2011, 12:33 PM
I want to come back to this post because I was just thinking over lunch how bad this salary is.

I quit my job at the Sheriff's Dept to go work as an Assistant Mgr in a Fast Food Restaurant making $35-36,000/ year. That was over 10 years ago.

How it does square that a fast food manager makes more starting out than a freaking college educated teacher.

There is something wrong with that. I put my life on the line every day for $12000 a year with no benefits or insurance. I must have been crazy

Were you a bad deputy?

Mr. Kotter
03-08-2011, 12:38 PM
Or alternatively, I prefer to delude myself into believeing I'm right and I'm not going to bother trying to prove what I can't.

FYP :thumb:

Mr. Kotter
03-08-2011, 12:39 PM
Now we know you're lying.



(Sorry Rob, couldn't pass it up)

After 3 beers, or 12....you never know. :p

HonestChieffan
03-08-2011, 12:39 PM
I want to come back to this post because I was just thinking over lunch how bad this salary is.

I quit my job at the Sheriff's Dept to go work as an Assistant Mgr in a Fast Food Restaurant making $35-36,000/ year. That was over 10 years ago.

How it does square that a fast food manager makes more starting out than a freaking college educated teacher.

There is something wrong with that. I put my life on the line every day for $12000 a year with no benefits or insurance. I must have been crazy



Teachers in Missouri are screwed. We still have districts that offer no benefits at all. One very close to where you live. We did away with drivers ed so we could do all the title 9 crap that was forced on schools. And they cut back when they were forced to mainstream handicapped learning disabled kids because they had to hire special aides to manage the kid while they disrupt the rest of the class.

Kansas teachers live in a different world vs MO.


You didnt work at Hardies did you? Those cinnamon biscuits were the bomb going to the lake fishing...

mlyonsd
03-08-2011, 12:39 PM
How it does square that a fast food manager makes more starting out than a freaking college educated teacher.



How many months a year did you work as a FF manager? All 8-5 M-F? In Clinton, MO?

dirk digler
03-08-2011, 12:44 PM
Were you a bad deputy?

No that was standard pay for new people

Teachers in Missouri are screwed. We still have districts that offer no benefits at all. One very close to where you live. We did away with drivers ed so we could do all the title 9 crap that was forced on schools. And they cut back when they were forced to mainstream handicapped learning disabled kids because they had to hire special aides to manage the kid while they disrupt the rest of the class.

Kansas teachers live in a different world vs MO.


You didnt work at Hardies did you? Those cinnamon biscuits were the bomb going to the lake fishing...

No Taco Bell


How many months a year did you work as a FF manager? All 8-5 M-F? In Clinton, MO?

Every month worked opening mid and a lot of closing. Yes all in Clinton

dirk digler
03-08-2011, 12:53 PM
Teachers in Missouri are screwed. We still have districts that offer no benefits at all. One very close to where you live. We did away with drivers ed so we could do all the title 9 crap that was forced on schools. And they cut back when they were forced to mainstream handicapped learning disabled kids because they had to hire special aides to manage the kid while they disrupt the rest of the class.

Kansas teachers live in a different world vs MO.


You didnt work at Hardies did you? Those cinnamon biscuits were the bomb going to the lake fishing...

I didn't realize it was that bad.

patteeu
03-08-2011, 12:56 PM
No that was standard pay for new people

So 12K per year wasn't enough to retain a good deputy, but it was enough to attract one in the first place. I bet there were other good deputies who weren't as motivated as you to leave. And if not, I bet they raised the salary to the point where they could attract and hold good deputies.

dirk digler
03-08-2011, 01:08 PM
So 12K per year wasn't enough to retain a good deputy, but it was enough to attract one in the first place. I bet there were other good deputies who weren't as motivated as you to leave. And if not, I bet they raised the salary to the point where they could attract and hold good deputies.

Most people used the job as a stepping stone which what I was doing. Then I got married and had a kid and well everything changed after that.

There were a few deputies that had been there a while and I am sure they were making 18-20K + mileage . The sad part is you had to buy all your uniforms, guns and your own car and all the lights etc. That cost $5000-$10,000 up front

Saul Good
03-08-2011, 02:15 PM
Either you already know this is pure fantasy, or you'd provide some reasonably credible source for such hogwash. :rolleyes:

I don't see any teaching positions going unfilled. Do you? In fact, teachers are getting laid off left and right. If anything, there are too many teachers.

Saul Good
03-08-2011, 02:19 PM
I want to come back to this post because I was just thinking over lunch how bad this salary is.

I quit my job at the Sheriff's Dept to go work as an Assistant Mgr in a Fast Food Restaurant making $35-36,000/ year. That was over 10 years ago.

How it does square that a fast food manager makes more starting out than a freaking college educated teacher.

There is something wrong with that. I put my life on the line every day for $12000 a year with no benefits or insurance. I must have been crazy

The starting pay for a teacher with no experience in your home city is more than the average household earns combined.

As far as the comparison goes, I would guess that you didn't get free health insurance or 3 months a year off with pay. Total compensation including benefits is around $40,000, or around $4,500 per month worked.

Saul Good
03-08-2011, 02:22 PM
Teachers in Missouri are screwed. We still have districts that offer no benefits at all. One very close to where you live. We did away with drivers ed so we could do all the title 9 crap that was forced on schools. And they cut back when they were forced to mainstream handicapped learning disabled kids because they had to hire special aides to manage the kid while they disrupt the rest of the class.

Kansas teachers live in a different world vs MO.

They live in a different world in that MO has a much more lucrative retirement package which is part of the reason MO schools are in such dire financial straights. The teachers unions have cannibalized themselves to a degree.

The Mad Crapper
03-08-2011, 02:32 PM
Most people used the job as a stepping stone which what I was doing.

That's what people used to do with minimum wage jobs--- but the dems raised the rate so high people can't do that any more.

But at least they will have free health care so they can pursue their dreams as artists like Nancy said.

Mr. Kotter
03-08-2011, 03:02 PM
I don't see any teaching positions going unfilled. Do you? In fact, teachers are getting laid off left and right. If anything, there are too many teachers.

I don't know where you live, but your anecdote doesn't reflect the reality of the widespread expected teacher shortage when boomers retire (google it yourself.) I literally spoke with one of our administrators this afteroon....and she voiced growing concerns over the quality of applicants they are having to "settle" on. Districts facing lay-offs are the ones facing budget deficits due to declining taxes and revenues--and often have class sizes topping 30-35, or even 40 kids. That does not bode well for the future of those schools.

When I applied to my district nearly 20 years ago, there were dozens of applicants for every job--even difficult to fill special education, mathmatics, and vocational jobs. In many cases these days, they have maybe a handful of applicants. Of those that apply....they are lucky to have 2 or 3 qualified applicants, so they get very little "choice" and do not have the luxury of being "selective" as much anymore. They fill numerous jobs each year with applicants who aren't really qualified--or are only qualified based on a waiver, or a provisional basis.

My anecdotal experience is more consistent with what nearly all the experts I've read on the topic have to say about it. You could prove to be right, but I'd be willing to bet otherwise.

HonestChieffan
03-08-2011, 03:09 PM
They live in a different world in that MO has a much more lucrative retirement package which is part of the reason MO schools are in such dire financial straights. The teachers unions have cannibalized themselves to a degree.

Teachers pay in a great deal more in MO into retirement so you are only part right. And Mo Teacher retirement plan last I saw was solvent. and Health insurance is going out the roof because they all stand on their own...every district so no economy of scale to spread risj\ks over....stupid system run by state morons

Saul Good
03-08-2011, 03:13 PM
I don't know where you live, but your anecdote doesn't reflect the reality of the widespread expected teacher shortage when boomers retire (google it yourself.) I literally spoke with one of our administrators this afteroon....and she voiced growing concerns over the quality of applicants they are having to "settle" on. Districts facing lay-offs are the ones facing budget deficits due to declining taxes and revenues--and often have class sizes topping 30-35, or even 40 kids. That does not bode well for the future of those schools.

When I applied to my district nearly 20 years ago, there were dozens of applicants for every job--even difficult to fill special education, mathmatics, and vocational jobs. In many cases these days, they have maybe a handful of applicants. Of those that apply....they are lucky to have 2 or 3 qualified applicants, so they get very little "choice" and do not have the luxury of being "selective" as much anymore. They fill numerous jobs each year with applicants who aren't really qualified--or are only qualified based on a waiver, or a provisional basis.

My anecdotal experience is more consistent with what nearly all the experts I've read on the topic have to say about it. You could prove to be right, but I'd be willing to bet otherwise.

The unemployment situation in this country is anecdotal? Good to know. Let me know what district you teach in, and I'll check the website for job postings.

Mr. Kotter
03-08-2011, 03:15 PM
I don't see any teaching positions going unfilled. Do you? In fact, teachers are getting laid off left and right. If anything, there are too many teachers.

If you have an objective and credible link to verify your claim, I'd honestly love to see it; I've looked for one, and never been able to find one.

Mr. Kotter
03-08-2011, 03:17 PM
The unemployment situation in this country is anecdotal? Good to know. Let me know what district you teach in, and I'll check the website for job postings.

Postings in our district are sometimes filled internally; also, there are openings that often have to go unfilled for months, or re-opened numerous times to find a qualified candidate. And, no, I'm not about to put my district out here in the open...sorry.

Mr. Kotter
03-08-2011, 03:20 PM
The unemployment situation in this country is anecdotal? Good to know. Let me know what district you teach in, and I'll check the website for job postings.

So, you are proposing we fill specified teacher openings with whatever unemployed worker happens to walk in off the street, regardless of qualifications, experiences, and training?

:spock:

ClevelandBronco
03-08-2011, 03:23 PM
Postings in our district are sometimes filled internally; also, there are openings that often have to go unfilled for months, or re-opened numerous times to find a qualified candidate. And, no, I'm not about to put my district out here in the open...sorry.

It's cool. I'll just ask Skip.

Mr. Kotter
03-08-2011, 03:29 PM
It's cool. I'll just ask Skip.

Fine. I work in an Eskimo village, in Barrow, Alaska. Pay is good, but the commute is hellish.

Saul Good
03-08-2011, 04:12 PM
Postings in our district are sometimes filled internally; also, there are openings that often have to go unfilled for months, or re-opened numerous times to find a qualified candidate. And, no, I'm not about to put my district out here in the open...sorry.

Give me a random district, then. The results will be the same.

Saul Good
03-08-2011, 04:20 PM
The entire KCMO school district has 5 full time teaching positions and 2 substitute positions listed. How many thousands of teachers do you think the district employs?

Mr. Kotter
03-08-2011, 08:43 PM
The entire KCMO school district has 5 full time teaching positions and 2 substitute positions listed. How many thousands of teachers do you think the district employs?

If you are relying on "listings" from one of the most fugged-up districts in the country, to present a reasonable representation for a true picture of "supply-and-demand" for filling teaching positions with qualified applicants....in "normal," above-average, and excellent public school districts in the country, you are truly bat-shit crazy.

And I'm over-qualified to make that assessment; just sayin'. :hmmm:

Saul Good
03-08-2011, 08:51 PM
If you are relying on "listings" from one of the most fugged-up districts in the country, to present a reasonable representation for a true picture of "supply-and-demand" for filling teaching positions with qualified applicants....in "normal," above-average, and excellent public school districts in the country, you are truly bat-shit crazy.

And I'm over-qualified to make that assessment; just sayin'. :hmmm:

Let's see here...

I gave you a report from my local district where my wife teaches, one of the best in the country. You called it anecdotal.

I asked you where you teach so that I can run a comparison. You refused to tell me.

I asked you to pick a random district. You ignored the question.

I gave you the numbers for KCMO, the largest in the area. You accused me of using it to misrepresent the situation.

You have done nothing to substantiate your argument. What's more, if you think that KCMO has an EASIER time filling positions than suburban schools, you are insane. NOBODY wants to teach in KCMO compared to suburban schools, yet they are still fully staffed.

Name a district, and I will see how many openings they have.

Saul Good
03-08-2011, 08:54 PM
Just for the hell of it, I looked up Clinton School District because I discussed it earlier with Dirk. They have...
















wait for it...
































zero teaching positions available.

Saul Good
03-08-2011, 08:56 PM
For the record, that's one urban school district in the KC area, one suburban school district in the KC area, and one rural school district just outside the KC area.

dirk digler
03-08-2011, 09:06 PM
Yeah I knew Clinton wasn't hiring I had checked earlier in the day. Though I am curious if you won't get an accurate picture of how many jobs are available until after the school year.

I looked at NYC just out of curiosity and they say they won't know how many positions they will have until the end of the school year. They also said they only hire about 20% of the people that apply.

Their pay is decent, $45,000 to start, but I don't know how you could live in NYC making that.

The cost of living in New York, NY is 92.0% higher than in Kansas City, MO .

Saul Good
03-08-2011, 09:14 PM
Yeah I knew Clinton wasn't hiring I had checked earlier in the day. Though I am curious if you won't get an accurate picture of how many jobs are available until after the school year.

I'm sure this is true, but zero jobs in the entire district is still zero jobs in the entire district.

Also, if NYC is getting 5 applicants per position, they aren't having trouble finding people willing to work for a teacher's salary. I would also submit that this number will increase next year due to the increase in the number of unemployed.

Mr. Kotter
03-08-2011, 09:43 PM
I'm sure this is true, but zero jobs in the entire district is still zero jobs in the entire district.

Also, if NYC is getting 5 applicants per position, they aren't having trouble finding people willing to work for a teacher's salary. I would also submit that this number will increase next year due to the increase in the number of unemployed.

Do you understand that many "school" jobs don't open for the the next fiscal year....until, wait for it.....May, June, July, OR August??? Depending on "late" openings, that are quite prevalent?

:spock:

Gosh, you can extend your disingenuous inquiry over a FOUR month period, and you still would NOT get an accurate picture of "available openings" and "listings" versus QUALIFIED applicants to fill those jobs for the next fiscal year...

Of course, your goal here is not "accuracy" though, I understand.

:hmmm:

ClevelandBronco
03-08-2011, 10:14 PM
You seem to miss the point, Kotter. New seasonal job listings in the spring are an event. Rosters full of teachers the rest of the year are the norm.

I do agree with you that many working teachers are actually unqualified and substandard, though. You're right about that. Unfortunately, as you say, school districts too often hire incompetent teachers. If only it were easier to fire them once the mistake is discovered, eh?

Saul Good
03-09-2011, 06:41 AM
Do you understand that many "school" jobs don't open for the the next fiscal year....until, wait for it.....May, June, July, OR August??? Depending on "late" openings, that are quite prevalent?

:spock:

Gosh, you can extend your disingenuous inquiry over a FOUR month period, and you still would NOT get an accurate picture of "available openings" and "listings" versus QUALIFIED applicants to fill those jobs for the next fiscal year...

Of course, your goal here is not "accuracy" though, I understand.

:hmmm:

I have given you example after example, and you have given nothing to support your case. The national unemployment rate is around 9%. What do you suppose it is for teachers? If I show you that it is higher than this, what excuse will you use to stick to your false position?

Mr. Kotter
03-09-2011, 08:39 AM
I have given you example after example, and you have given nothing to support your case. The national unemployment rate is around 9%. What do you suppose it is for teachers? If I show you that it is higher than this, what excuse will you use to stick to your false position?

You have given anecdote after anecdote, that don't have anything at all to do with the growing national shortage of teachers.

From the Department of Education, for each state for each year 1990-2011:

http://www2.ed.gov/about/offices/list/ope/pol/tsa.pdf

Prospects for the future:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/07/education/07teacher.html

In this report, they demonstrate that while there are plenty of "certified" teachers....inability to retain, burn-out, and teachers leaving the profession have become huge factors in the growing teacher shortage:

http://www.ncsu.edu/mentorjunction/text_files/teacher_retentionsymposium.pdf


The bottom-line? While there are plenty of qualified teachers, in theory....the reality is, not too many are willing to stick it out, given the current climate of education and lack of support for education.

In other words, those of us who choose to stick-it-out are a vanishing breed. Too many are deciding that the sacrifices and trade-offs are simply not worth it. And that is what is fueling the current and projected shortages.

That is how we are destroying public education in this country; but, again, that's the goal, ain't it? It's just dandy to many of you who reside on the reactionary right.

Saul Good
03-09-2011, 08:49 AM
You have given anecdote after anecdote, that don't have anything at all to do with the growing national shortage of teachers.

From the Department of Education, for each state for each year 1990-2011:

http://www2.ed.gov/about/offices/list/ope/pol/tsa.pdf

Prospects for the future:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/07/education/07teacher.html

In this report, they demonstrate that while there are plenty of "certified" teachers....inability to retain, burn-out, and teachers leaving the profession have become huge factors in the growing teacher shortage:

http://www.ncsu.edu/mentorjunction/text_files/teacher_retentionsymposium.pdf


The bottom-line? While there are plenty of qualified teachers, in theory....the reality is, not too many are willing to stick it out, given the current climate of education and lack of support for education.

In other words, those of us who choose to stick-it-out are a vanishing breed. Too many are deciding that the sacrifices and trade-offs are simply not worth it. And that is what is fueling the current and projected shortages.

That is how we are destroying public education in this country; but, again, that's the goal, ain't it? It's just dandy to many of you who reside on the reactionary right.

So it's not a money thing despite your earlier claim. Thanks for the proof.

Also, I didn't go through all 50 states, but it doesn't look like there is much of a shortage at all. For Kansas, there is no shortage for any positions listed outside of special education, and there hasn't been in 16 years.

2010-11
Special Education - Grades Pre-K to 12
Audiology
Infant/Toddler
Interrelated Program
Occupational Therapy
Severe Multiple Disabilities
Speech/Language
Visually Impaired

2011-12
Special Education - Grades Pre-K to 12
Educational Interpreter
Hearing Impaired
Mental Retardation
Occupational Therapy
Physical Therapy
Severe Multiple Disabilities
Speech/Language



Missouri has even fewer listed, but they at least have a couple that are not sped related.

2011-12
Deaf/Hearing Impaired
Drivers Education
General Science
German
Russian
Social Studies


Even so, this document doesn't even define what "shortage" means. You wouldn't know that, though, because you clearly didn't even read your own link.

Mr. Kotter
03-09-2011, 09:10 AM
So it's not a money thing despite your earlier claim. Thanks for the proof.

Also, I didn't go through all 50 states, but it doesn't look like there is much of a shortage at all. For Kansas, there is no shortage for any positions listed outside of special education, and there hasn't been in 16 years.

....

Even so, this document doesn't even define what "shortage" means. You wouldn't know that, though, because you clearly didn't even read your own link.

Why didn't you just state: "I'm going to stick with my preconceived notions, despite clear evidence that I'm wrong." That would have been more efficient.

It's not a "money" thing? Are you really that obtuse? You can't really ignore the role that money plays in "the current climate of education and lack of support for education"--that are driving teachers away, unless you have absolutely no clue--which appears to be the case.

Money won't solve all of education's problems, but anyone with an ability to think critically about such matters would clearly understand that a lack of money and resources....constitute a deteriorating "climate" and insufficient resources and "support" that is driving certified teachers from the classroom in growing numbers. Until that is reversed, the shortage will grow.

So, just go ahead and just retreat to the dishonest rhetoric, demagoguery, and reactionary talking points of: "throwing money at schools doesn't solve the problem!"

And, as a nation we will continue to watch public education destroyed. Which is the goal, anyway; you just aren't willing to admit it.

Saul Good
03-09-2011, 09:18 AM
Why didn't you just state: "I'm going to stick with my preconceived notions, despite clear evidence that I'm wrong." That would have been more efficient.

It's not a "money" thing? Are you really that obtuse? You can't really ignore the role that money plays in "the current climate of education and lack of support for education"--that are driving teachers away, unless you have absolutely no clue--which appears to be the case.

Money won't solve all of education's problems, but anyone with an ability to think critically about such matters would clearly understand that a lack of money and resources....constitute a deteriorating "climate" and insufficient resources and "support" that is driving certified teachers from the classroom in growing numbers. Until that is reversed, the shortage will grow.

So, just go ahead and just retreat to the dishonest rhetoric, demagoguery, and reactionary talking points of: "throwing money at schools doesn't solve the problem!"

And, as a nation we will continue to watch public education destroyed. Which is the goal, anyway; you just aren't willing to admit it.

What evidence? You gave a full listing of all positions of need, and it was almost entirely special education. You posted an article talking about why teachers leave, and money wasn't the issue.

As to your last point, I will go ahead and admit it. I want my wife to lose her job. My house is way too big, my clothes are way too nice, and my refrigerator is way too full of food. After I succeed in destroying her profession, I'm going to focus my attention on destroying mine. You've figured me out.

Mr. Kotter
03-09-2011, 09:29 AM
What evidence? You gave a full listing of all positions of need, and it was almost entirely special education. You posted an article talking about why teachers leave, and money wasn't the issue.

As to your last point, I will go ahead and admit it. I want my wife to lose her job. My house is way too big, my clothes are way too nice, and my refrigerator is way too full of food. After I succeed in destroying her profession, I'm going to focus my attention on destroying mine. You've figured me out.

You and I both know that your stake in this isn't at risk; it's just those many other districts and states....whose taxpayers need more tax cuts; and fewer effective public schools, because they have become far too costly--despite historical low tax rates, right? Leave the pity party to us.

Saul Good
03-09-2011, 09:36 AM
You and I both know that your stake in this isn't at risk; it's just those many other districts and states....whose taxpayers need more tax cuts; and fewer effective public schools, because they have become far too costly--despite historical low tax rates, right? Leave the pity party to us.

It's not? Teachers are being laid off left and right in my wife's district, and I'm under no illusions as to why this is. The economy plays a big part in this, but there is so much wasted money that it blows my mind.

Mr. Kotter
03-09-2011, 11:15 AM
.... so much wasted money that it blows my mind.

I suspect your wife's job is safe, and you know it. Otherwise, you would be more sympathetic. "Wasted money," in this conversation, is a euphemism, on the right, for money that supports programs I think are a waste of time--or exorbitant salaries for workers, whom we can replace with less effective, but more economical, baby-sitters and scabs.

Funny how extravagant bonuses and lavish expenses for corporations and businesses that receive government tax breaks, federals subsidies, and recessionary assistance and bailouts...are rarily the targets of the same sort of contempt or outrage.

ClevelandBronco
03-09-2011, 11:19 AM
I suspect your wife's job is safe, and you know it. Otherwise, you would be more sympathetic. "Wasted money," in this conversation, is a euphemism, on the right, for money that supports programs I think are a waste of time--or exorbitant salaries for workers, whom we can replace with less effective, but more economical, baby-sitters and scabs.

Funny how extravagant bonuses and lavish expenses for corporations and businesses that receive government tax breaks, federals subsidies, and recessionary assistance and bailouts...are rarily the targets of the same sort of contempt or outrage.

Bullshit.

Mr. Kotter
03-09-2011, 12:27 PM
Bullshit.

Such eloquence. Would you care to elaborate, or offer specific complaints rather than general blather?

Or are you like most on reactionary right and tea party type folk, going to continue to let the talk radio demagogues do your talkin' for you?

"Dittos!" "You're a great American!"

mnchiefsguy
03-09-2011, 02:09 PM
Let's see here...

I gave you a report from my local district where my wife teaches, one of the best in the country. You called it anecdotal.

I asked you where you teach so that I can run a comparison. You refused to tell me.

I asked you to pick a random district. You ignored the question.

I gave you the numbers for KCMO, the largest in the area. You accused me of using it to misrepresent the situation.

You have done nothing to substantiate your argument. What's more, if you think that KCMO has an EASIER time filling positions than suburban schools, you are insane. NOBODY wants to teach in KCMO compared to suburban schools, yet they are still fully staffed.

Name a district, and I will see how many openings they have.

There are currently 14 openings in the Springfield, MO. school district. These are just the "first postings", they have a repeated posting category but I did not look at that.

http://springfieldpublicschoolsmo.org/humanresources/jobs/docs/posting--1st2011-12.pdf

ClevelandBronco
03-09-2011, 03:25 PM
Such eloquence. Would you care to elaborate, or offer specific complaints rather than general blather?

Or are you like most on reactionary right and tea party type folk, going to continue to let the talk radio demagogues do your talkin' for you?

"Dittos!" "You're a great American!"

I would not care to elaborate. Elaboration would only serve to aid your attempt to move the discussion away from this subject. I can understand why you'd want to bring up corporate welfare or something other than the matter under discussion here. Saul is tearing you a new asshole.

Saul Good
03-09-2011, 03:37 PM
There are currently 14 openings in the Springfield, MO. school district. These are just the "first postings", they have a repeated posting category but I did not look at that.

http://springfieldpublicschoolsmo.org/humanresources/jobs/docs/posting--1st2011-12.pdf

6 of them are sped, and one is non-teaching. Only 2 of them are for core subjects.

Saul Good
03-09-2011, 03:40 PM
Such eloquence. Would you care to elaborate, or offer specific complaints rather than general blather?

Or are you like most on reactionary right and tea party type folk, going to continue to let the talk radio demagogues do your talkin' for you?

"Dittos!" "You're a great American!"

What's to elaborate? I tell you my situation, and you tell me I'm wrong about my own situation. I am literally the husband of a woman who teaches in a district that is laying off teachers as we speak, and you are telling me that I want public schools to be destroyed. There is nothing to debate here.

Answer my question: What will your argument be if I show you a stat on the unemployment rate for teachers being higher than the national average?

I just want to know in advance what your spin will be.

mnchiefsguy
03-09-2011, 03:42 PM
7 of them are sped, and one is non-teaching.

I did look at the list all that close, and I did think of the sped positions as teaching positions. They are different, but a sped teacher is still a teacher, but those positions might not be relevant for the current discussion. Still, 6 open positions in a school district in a medium sized city....Missouri State in town, which used to have a large education program back in the day (not sure if they still do), would be relevant to whether there is a shortage of teachers I suppose.

Stinger
03-09-2011, 03:59 PM
I did look at the list all that close, and I did think of the sped positions as teaching positions. They are different, but a sped teacher is still a teacher, but those positions might not be relevant for the current discussion. Still, 6 open positions in a school district in a medium sized city....Missouri State in town, which used to have a large education program back in the day (not sure if they still do), would be relevant to whether there is a shortage of teachers I suppose.

If my wife explained this correctly what that list is, is that teachers already in the district have first choice at these. These are teachers that have already put in there notice that they are leaving. My wife tells me that you will see more openings in the next two months. She just completed her teaching certification, and working on her masters and knows of a couple of opening that are going to there but are not listed because the teacher(s) have not put in notice. At least 1 teacher has not turned her notice for this purpose in hopes that my wife might get chosen to teach that class.

mnchiefsguy
03-09-2011, 04:06 PM
If my wife explained this correctly what that list is, is that teachers already in the district have first choice at these. These are teachers that have already put in there notice that they are leaving. My wife tells me that you will see more openings in the next two months. She just completed her teaching certification, and working on her masters and knows of a couple of opening that are going to there but are not listed because the teacher(s) have not put in notice. At least 1 teacher has not turned her notice for this purpose in hopes that my wife might get chosen to teach that class.

Cool. I was just looking for a random district, was not endorsing one point or another on how many teacher jobs are out there. I just figured Springfield, since it is a town I know relatively well, is of medium size, and has a district that is not has the trouble as say, the KC district.

Good luck to wife, I hope she gets the class she wants to teach.

patteeu
03-09-2011, 04:48 PM
Someone needs to get Mr. Kotter a rape whistle for threads like these.

Calcountry
03-09-2011, 05:28 PM
That's a sure way to destroy all public education in the country, ain't it? Of course, that would be just fine with many on the reactionary right.

Well you better hope all Republicans, including moderates, and some Democrats feel the same way--otherwise, the Republican gains in the last election will be reversed pretty quickly.

Guess we'll see.... :hmmm:Obama's energy policy, Obama's fiscal policy. Obama's foreign policy. Game over.

RaiderH8r
03-09-2011, 06:12 PM
Someone needs to get Mr. Kotter a rape whistle for threads like these.

Indeed. He's like Jodie Foster in The Accused.

Saul Good
03-09-2011, 06:31 PM
I would like to take this opportunity to apologize to Kotter for plotting to destroy public schools. Keep up the good work, guys! Let's just maintain the status quo. No changes are needed.

On an unrelated note:

82 percent of US schools may be labeled 'failing'
The number of schools labeled as "failing" under the nation's No Child Left Behind Act could skyrocket dramatically this year, Education Secretary Arne Duncan said Wednesday.

The Department of Education estimates the percentage of schools not meeting yearly targets for their students' proficiency in in math and reading could jump from 37 to 82 percent as states raise standards in attempts to satisfy the law's mandates.

The 2002 law requires states to set targets aimed at having all students proficient in math and reading by 2014, a standard now viewed as wildly unrealistic.

"No Child Left Behind is broken and we need to fix it now," Duncan said in a statement. "This law has created a thousand ways for schools to fail and very few ways to help them succeed."

Duncan presented the figures at a House education and work force committee hearing, in urging lawmakers to rewrite the Bush-era act. Both Republicans and Democrats agree the law needs to be reformed, though they disagree on issues revolving around the federal role of education and how to turn around failing schools...
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gPmjfDMN5nHOpeSIZYLwkVfKAHGQ?docId=c7dc0757afd54b5ca2836c00de44535f

The Mad Crapper
03-09-2011, 06:55 PM
I would like to take this opportunity to apologize to Kotter for plotting to destroy public schools. Keep up the good work, guys! Let's just maintain the status quo. No changes are needed.

On an unrelated note:

82 percent of US schools may be labeled 'failing'
The number of schools labeled as "failing" under the nation's No Child Left Behind Act could skyrocket dramatically this year, Education Secretary Arne Duncan said Wednesday.

The Department of Education estimates the percentage of schools not meeting yearly targets for their students' proficiency in in math and reading could jump from 37 to 82 percent as states raise standards in attempts to satisfy the law's mandates.

The 2002 law requires states to set targets aimed at having all students proficient in math and reading by 2014, a standard now viewed as wildly unrealistic.

"No Child Left Behind is broken and we need to fix it now," Duncan said in a statement. "This law has created a thousand ways for schools to fail and very few ways to help them succeed."

Duncan presented the figures at a House education and work force committee hearing, in urging lawmakers to rewrite the Bush-era act. Both Republicans and Democrats agree the law needs to be reformed, though they disagree on issues revolving around the federal role of education and how to turn around failing schools...
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gPmjfDMN5nHOpeSIZYLwkVfKAHGQ?docId=c7dc0757afd54b5ca2836c00de44535f

Lawnmower = Saul
Grass= Kotter

Mr. Kotter
03-09-2011, 07:06 PM
...
Answer my question: What will your argument be if I show you a stat on the unemployment rate for teachers being higher than the national average?



I'd have to see the stat, and evaluate methodology to determine validity. You know, empirical analysis?

I'm guessing any such figure might include the entire universe of credentialed and certified teachers--or perhaps includes teachers who are unwilling to relocate or cummute. That would render the stat meaningless, because the only meaningful and relevant indicator would be the percentage of certified or credentialed teachers who are currently seeking jobs in the profession. And, currently, there is a growing shortage of certified and qualified teachers to fill vacancies, even if you refuse to see it.

It would be as disingenuous as using a similar stat.....determining unemployment for business grads, by including all those with business degrees who may be unemployed....but no longer seeking employment in the business sector.

Mr. Kotter
03-09-2011, 07:11 PM
Lawnmower = Saul
Grass= Kotter

I hope reactionary circle jerks and delusional propaganda, such as the ones you and other reactionary tea bagging types seem to enjoy so much, use precautionary safe sex practices. Otherwise, you guys just may shoot out each others eyes.

Careful, fella! ;)

Saul Good
03-09-2011, 07:18 PM
I hope reactionary circle jerks and delusional propaganda, such as the ones you and other reactionary tea bagging types seem to enjoy so much, use precautionary safe sex practices. Otherwise, you guys just may shoot out each others eyes.

Careful, fella! ;)

Given the recent events in the news, you'll forgive me if I don't take sex advice from public school teachers.

http://chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=242458

SNR
03-09-2011, 07:24 PM
Given the recent events in the news, you'll forgive me if I don't take sex advice from public school teachers.

http://chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=242458I would congratulate you on your zinger but I don't want Kotter to call me gay. That would make me sad.

Mr. Kotter
03-09-2011, 07:25 PM
Given the recent events in the news, you'll forgive me if I don't take sex advice from public school teachers.

http://chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=242458

Well, if we are judged by the folks we associate with....I'll take public school teachers like you wife, over shitforbrains and other teabagging types, every friggin' time. Every group has it's freaks.

I know guilt by association has been a hallmark of the reactionary movement since McCarthy, and traditions die-hard...but they are transparent to anyone really paying attention.

ClevelandBronco
03-09-2011, 07:33 PM
There's no ****ing way that Rodin intended his work to be used as a visual punchline.

The Mad Crapper
03-09-2011, 07:35 PM
I hope reactionary circle jerks and delusional propaganda, such as the ones you and other reactionary tea bagging types seem to enjoy so much, use precautionary safe sex practices. Otherwise, you guys just may shoot out each others eyes.

Careful, fella! ;)

nlm

http://images.footballfanatics.com/productImages/_77000/FF_77116_xl.jpg

The Mad Crapper
03-09-2011, 07:37 PM
Kotter has become as unhinged as Ladairis.

LMAO

Saul Good
03-09-2011, 07:38 PM
Well, if we are judged by the folks we associate with....I'll take public school teachers like you wife, over shitforbrains and other teabagging types, every friggin' time. Every group has it's freaks.

I know guilt by association has been a hallmark of the reactionary movement since McCarthy, and traditions die-hard...but they are transparent to anyone really paying attention.

Lighten up, Francis.

Kid feeling better, BTW?

go bowe
03-09-2011, 07:40 PM
Well, if we are judged by the folks we associate with....I'll take public school teachers like you wife, over shitforbrains and other teabagging types, every friggin' time. Every group has it's freaks.

I know guilt by association has been a hallmark of the reactionary movement since McCarthy, and traditions die-hard...but they are transparent to anyone really paying attention.wtf?

now we're supposed to pay attention?

go bowe
03-09-2011, 07:43 PM
Kotter has become as unhinged as Ladairis.

LMAOoh c'mon...

ladairis is in a league of his own...

at least kotter speaks english and doesn't tell you that you are a subhuman nazi socialist w supporter, etc.

The Mad Crapper
03-09-2011, 07:45 PM
oh c'mon...

ladairis is in a league of his own...

at least kotter speaks english and doesn't tell you that you are a subhuman nazi socialist w supporter, etc.

No, Kotter calls me a reactionary teabagger. ROFL

The Mad Crapper
03-09-2011, 07:48 PM
There's no ****ing way that Rodin intended his work to be used as a visual punchline.

I just got that. ROFL

HonestChieffan
03-09-2011, 08:15 PM
No, Kotter calls me a reactionary teabagger. ROFL

Well?


hhhhehehhehhehheeehheeh snicker snicker snort snort

Mr. Kotter
03-09-2011, 09:22 PM
Lighten up, Francis.

Kid feeling better, BTW?

Yeah, yeah. Can I still associate with your wife, rather than MC? Heh.

Yeah...but with Type A, late season Flu....apparently it's a 7-10 day event. Wife toook M, me-T-W....tomorrow, one of our neices. You volunteering for Friday???

Seriously though....thanks for askin'. Best wishes to you in your new gig, despite whatever disagreements we have.


BTW, ya know, as delusionary as some of you right wing radio groupies are...I'd be willing to bet we'd still have one helluva time together at one of Joe's ChiefsPlanet gatherings or some such similar event or tailgating at Arrowhead.

Just sayin'.... :toast:

I'll bring some NB 1554, or maybe even some St. Bernardus Abt 12 to share...

googlegoogle
03-09-2011, 09:27 PM
John Stewart would fit in nicely on Lawrence 'socialist' Odonells show.

go bowe
03-09-2011, 09:53 PM
No, Kotter calls me a reactionary teabagger. ROFLi'm not gonna judge your proclivities with regard to teabagging, but i've heard it can be very stimulating...

go bowe
03-09-2011, 09:56 PM
John Stewart would fit in nicely on Lawrence 'socialist' Odonells show.i think i would like norah o'donnel better...

saw her on real time and she's looking pretty good for a veteran journalist...