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HonestChieffan
03-08-2011, 09:35 PM
Shameful is the only description. Shame on the Union for the demands, shame on the schools for agreeing and not exposing this crap before now.

Madison— Today Governor Walker’s office released more specific examples and new details to show how collective bargaining fiscally impacts government and how reforming collective bargaining can improve government.


A Year’s Worth of Pay for 30 Days of Work

Under the Green Bay School District’s collectively bargained Emeritus Program, teaches can retire and receive a year’s worth of salary for working only 30 days over a three year period. This is paid in addition to their already guaranteed pension and health care payouts.

At the average annual salary for a Green Bay teacher of $51,355, this amounts to a daily rate of pay of $1,711.83, or an hourly rate of $213.98. Since most retiring teachers receive higher than average salary, these amounts are, in practice, much higher.

Source: WLUK-TV, 3/3/11

Teachers Receiving Two Pensions

Due to a 1982 provision of their collective bargaining agreement,Milwaukee Public School teachers actually receive two pensionsupon retirement instead of one. The contribution to the second pension is equal to 4.2% of a teacher’s salary, with the school district making 100% of the contribution, just like they do for the first pension. This extra benefit costs taxpayers more than $16 million per year.

Source: February 17, 2010 Press Release, Process of developing FY11 budget begins Milwaukee Public Schools

Almost $10,000 Per Year for Doing Nothing

While the Green Bay Emeritus Program actually requires teachers to at least show up for work, the Madison Emeritus Program doesn’t even require that. In addition to their pension payouts, retired Madison public school teachers receive annual payments of at least $9,884.18 per year for enrolling in the Emeritus Program, which requires ZERO days of work.

When this program began, 20 days of work per year were required. Through collective bargaining, the union successfully negotiated this down to zero days.

Source: Madison Teachers Inc. Website

Yesterday the Governor’s office released these examples of the fiscal impact of collective bargaining.

No Volunteer Crossing Guards Allowed

A Wausau public employee union filed a grievance to prohibit a local volunteer from serving as a school crossing guard. The 86-year-old lives just two blocks away and serves everyday free of charge.

Principal Steve Miller says, “He said, you know, this gives me a reason to get up in the morning to come and help these kids in the neighborhood.”

But for a local union that represents crossing guards, it isn’t that simple. Representatives didn’t want to go on camera but say if a crossing guard is needed, then one should be officially hired by the city.

Source: WAOW-TV, 1/27/10

$6,000 Extra for Carrying a Pager

Some state employees, due to the nature of their positions, are required to carry pagers during off-duty hours in order to respond to emergency situations. Due to the collective bargaining agreements, these employees are compensated an extra five hours of pay each week, whether they are paged or not.

For an employee earning an average salary of $50,000 per year, this requirement can cost more than $6,000 in additional compensation.

Source: 2008-09 Agreement between the State of Wisconsin and AFSCME Council 24

$150,000 Correctional Officers

Correctional Officer collective bargaining agreements allow officers a practice known as “sick leave stacking.” Officers can call in sick for a shift, receiving 8 hours of sick pay, and then are allowed to work the very next shift, earning time-and-a-half for overtime. This results in the officer receiving 2.5 times his or her rate of pay, while still only working 8 hours.

In part because of these practices, 13 correctional officers made more than $100,000 in 2009, despite earning base wages of less than $60,000 per year. The officers received an average of $66,000 in overtime pay for an average annual salary of more than $123,000 with the highest paid receiving $151,181.

Source: Department of Corrections

The $150,000 Bus Driver

In 2009, the City of Madison’s highest paid employee was a bus driver who earned $159,258, including $109,892 in overtime, guaranteed by a collective bargaining agreement. In total, seven City of Madison bus drivers made more than $100,000 per year in 2009.

“That’s the (drivers’) contract,” said Transit and Parking Commission Chairman Gary Poulson.


http://walker.wi.gov/journal_media_detail.asp?locid=177&prid=5675
http://walker.wi.gov/journal_media_detail.asp?locid=177&prid=5675

mnchiefsguy
03-08-2011, 09:38 PM
I would like to see the defenders of collective bargaining argue for this. They are basically robbing the taxpayer.

chiefsnorth
03-08-2011, 09:40 PM
There is a crossing guard union? Good gravy.

This is eye-opening.

HonestChieffan
03-08-2011, 09:51 PM
But there is more.......



For Immediate Release
Monday, March 07, 2011
Collective Bargaining is a Fiscal Issue Part 3




Madison—Today Governor Walker’s office released more specific examples to show how collective bargaining fiscally impacts government and how reforming collective bargaining can improve government.


No Volunteer Crossing Guards Allowed


A Wausau public employee union filed a grievance to prohibit a local volunteer from serving as a school crossing guard. The 86-year-old lives just two blocks away and serves everyday free of charge.


Principal Steve Miller says, "He said, you know, this gives me a reason to get up in the morning to come and help these kids in the neighborhood."


But for a local union that represents crossing guards, it isn't that simple. Representatives didn't want to go on camera but say if a crossing guard is needed, then one should be officially hired by the city.

Source: WAOW-TV, 1/27/10

$6,000 Extra for Carrying a Pager


Some state employees, due to the nature of their positions, are required to carry pagers during off-duty hours in order to respond to emergency situations. Due to the collective bargaining agreements, these employees are compensated an extra five hours of pay each week, whether they are paged or not.


For an employee earning an average salary of $50,000 per year, this requirement can cost more than $6,000 in additional compensation.


Source: 2008-09 Agreement between the State of Wisconsin and AFSCME Council 24


Arbitrator Reinstates Porn-Watching Teacher


A Cedarburg school teacher was reinstated by an arbitrator after being fired for viewing pornography on a school computer. The school district ultimately succeeded in terminating the teacher only after taking the case to the Wisconsin Supreme Court at great cost to the taxpayers.


Source: Milwaukee Journal Sentinel, 8/23/08

‘Outstanding First Year Teacher’ Laid Off


Milwaukee Public Schools teacher Megan Sampson was laid off less than one week after being named Outstanding First Year Teacher by the Wisconsin Council of English Teachers. She lost her job because the collective bargaining agreement requires layoffs to be made based on seniority rather than merit.


Informed that her union had rejected a lower-cost health care plan, that still would have required zero contribution from teachers, Sampson said, “Given the opportunity, of course I would switch to a different plan to save my job, or the jobs of 10 other teachers.


Source: Milwaukee Journal Sentinel, 6/14/10


Union Opposes Cost-Saving Lawn Mowing Program


As a cost cutting measure, Racine County began using county inmates to cut the grass in medians and right-of-ways at no cost to the taxpayers. A county employee union filed a grievance indicating it was the right of government workers to cut the grass, even though it would cost the taxpayers dramatically more.


Source: Racine Journal Times, 5/12/10


A Year’s Worth of Pay for 30 Days of Work


Under the Green Bay School District’s collectively bargained Emeritus Program, teachers can retire and receive a year’s worth of salary for working only 30 days over a three year period. This is paid in addition to their already guaranteed pension and health care payouts.


Source: WLUK-TV, 3/3/11


The $150,000 Bus Driver


In 2009, the City of Madison’s highest paid employee was a bus driver who earned $159,258, including $109,892 in overtime, guaranteed by a collective bargaining agreement. In total, seven City of Madison bus drivers made more than $100,000 per year in 2009.


"That's the (drivers') contract," said Transit and Parking Commission Chairman Gary Poulson.


Source: Wisconsin State Journal, 2/7/10


$150,000 Correctional Officers


Correctional Officer collective bargaining agreements allow officers a practice known as “sick leave stacking.” Officers can call in sick for a shift, receiving 8 hours of sick pay, and then are allowed to work the very next shift, earning time-and-a-half for overtime. This results in the officer receiving 2.5 times his or her rate of pay, while still only working 8 hours.


In part because of these practices, 13 correctional officers made more than $100,000 in 2009, despite earning base wages of less than $60,000 per year. The officers received an average of $66,000 in overtime pay for an average annual salary of more than $123,000 with the highest paid receiving $151,181.



Source: Department of Corrections


Previously the Governors office released these examples of the fiscal impact of collective bargaining:



Paid-Time off for Union Activities
In Milwaukee County alone, because the union collectively bargained for paid time off, fourteen employees receive salary and benefits for doing union business. Of the fourteen, three are on full-time release for union business. Milwaukee County spent over $170,000 in salary alone for these employees to only participate in union activities such as collective bargaining.


Surrender of Management Rights

Because of collecting bargaining, unions have included provisions in employee contracts that have a direct fiscal impact such as not allowing management to schedule workers based on operational needs and requiring notice and approval by the union prior to scheduling changes. As County Executive Walker attempted to reduce work hours based on budget pressures and workload requirements by instituting a 35 hour work week to avoid layoffs, which the union opposed. Additionally, government cannot explore privatization of functions that could save taxpayers money.

WEA Trust

Currently many school districts participate in WEA trust because WEAC collectively bargains to get as many school districts across the state to participate in this union run health insurance plan as possible. Union leadership benefits from members participating in this plan. If school districts enrolled in the state employee health plan, it would save school districts up to $68 million per year. Beyond that if school districts had the flexibility to look for health insurance coverage outside of WEA trust or the state plan, additional savings would likely be realized.


Viagra for Teachers

The Milwaukee Teachers Education Association (MTEA) tried to use a policy established by collective bargaining to obtain health insurance coverage that specifically paid for Viagra. Cost to taxpayers is $786,000 a year.


Reference: http://abcnews.go.com/Health/milwaukee-schools-ban-viagra-teachers-union-sues-discrimination/story?id=11378595


Unrealistic Overtime Provisions

On a state level, the Department of Corrections allows correctional workers who call in sick to collect overtime if they work a shift on the exact same day. The specific provision that allows this to happen was collectively bargained for in their contract. Cost to taxpayers $4.8 million.

http://walker.wi.gov/journal_media_detail.asp?prid=5671&locid=177

Garcia Bronco
03-08-2011, 11:11 PM
That's crazy.

Amnorix
03-09-2011, 09:58 AM
There are a number of abuses that go on in many union shops, and they need to be eliminated. The problem is that it's hard to do because of the CBA but, in theory, in the next CBA those loopholes should be closed.

Garcia Bronco
03-09-2011, 10:09 AM
There are a number of abuses that go on in many union shops, and they need to be eliminated. The problem is that it's hard to do because of the CBA but, in theory, in the next CBA those loopholes should be closed.

I agree the first loop hole to cover up is the entire CBA for the public sector.

The most amusing thing I've read to date is these people consider themselves tax payers.

Garcia Bronco
03-09-2011, 01:29 PM
LOL...where is the Dirk Jensons on these?

mnchiefsguy
03-09-2011, 01:52 PM
LOL...where is the Dirk Jensons on these?

It is interesting that Jenson, Orange, Direckshun, Mr. Kotter, etc. are strangely quiet in this thread.

Amnorix
03-09-2011, 01:56 PM
I agree the first loop hole to cover up is the entire CBA for the public sector.

The most amusing thing I've read to date is these people consider themselves tax payers.

Well, they do pay taxes, and if there is any other requirement for calling yourself a "taxpayer" I don't think I'm aware of it.

I have been more anti-union than pro for the public workforce for a while now. It seems, unfortunately, to lead to inevitable abuses. It is in my view a problem, however, that Republicans are basically trying to ensure their own power by destroying unions. I'm not so fond of that, especially when the SCOTUS in its infinite wisdom ahs removed the shackles of corporations funding political advertisements etc.

Amnorix
03-09-2011, 01:59 PM
It is interesting that Jenson, Orange, Direckshun, Mr. Kotter, etc. are strangely quiet in this thread.

What is there to say? There are abuses. Of course there are. But there are abuses in any massive organization.

Should we post some irrefutable absurdities in the department of defense budget and appropriations? The inimitable $700 hammer or whatever. Discuss how Admirals and Generals are increasingly getting cozy with private enterprise to the point where now a majority of them "retire" with full government benefits and instantly obtain six or seven figure jobs working for major defense contractors and "lobbying" their VERY OWN FORMER MILITARY SUBORDINATES WHO STILL CALL THEM GENERAL AND ADMIRAL?

You find me a major organization and it's easy to find abuses. The question isn't whether abuses exist, or loopholes are there to be taken advantage of. The issue is what to do about it, and usually throwing the baby out with the bathwater isn't necessarily the best answer.

Amnorix
03-09-2011, 02:05 PM
More on the increasing conflict of interest between the senior DoD officers and private enterprise, which is among the biggest of big business in America, for those who care.

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2010/12/26/defense_firms_lure_retired_generals/

Hydrae
03-09-2011, 02:05 PM
Ok, dumb question here. If these agreements are negotiated how can either side complain about what they agreed to? Don't like it? Don't agree to it. Can't make an agreement with a union? Don't hire union people to do the work.

Obviously there must be major things about a union that I don't understand here. I don't think this is a case like the NFL where these are the absolute best of the best in the industry. I am sure there are capable people out there that would be happy to fulfill these positions without paying a union to get the job.

mlyonsd
03-09-2011, 02:14 PM
Well, they do pay taxes, and if there is any other requirement for calling yourself a "taxpayer" I don't think I'm aware of it.

I have been more anti-union than pro for the public workforce for a while now. It seems, unfortunately, to lead to inevitable abuses. It is in my view a problem, however, that Republicans are basically trying to ensure their own power by destroying unions. I'm not so fond of that, especially when the SCOTUS in its infinite wisdom ahs removed the shackles of corporations funding political advertisements etc.

I think ensuring their own power is a bit of a stretch.

Conversely then it could be said Democrats are trying to ensure their own power by being derelict in their duties.

Which is worse?

mnchiefsguy
03-09-2011, 02:17 PM
What is there to say? There are abuses. Of course there are. But there are abuses in any massive organization.

Should we post some irrefutable absurdities in the department of defense budget and appropriations? The inimitable $700 hammer or whatever. Discuss how Admirals and Generals are increasingly getting cozy with private enterprise to the point where now a majority of them "retire" with full government benefits and instantly obtain six or seven figure jobs working for major defense contractors and "lobbying" their VERY OWN FORMER MILITARY SUBORDINATES WHO STILL CALL THEM GENERAL AND ADMIRAL?

You find me a major organization and it's easy to find abuses. The question isn't whether abuses exist, or loopholes are there to be taken advantage of. The issue is what to do about it, and usually throwing the baby out with the bathwater isn't necessarily the best answer.

These abuses are a little over the top. Frankly, those in power at the statehouse who agreed with them share in said responsibility, and should be voted out of office. Given the long list of collective bargaining abuses, it is easy to see why the Governor of Wisconsin wants to do away with the practice.

mnchiefsguy
03-09-2011, 02:21 PM
In addition, since the unions have shown that they have no regard for the solvency of the government, and thus have no respect for the taxpayer, they should lose their right to collectively bargain. They killed their golden goose, it is time that they suffer the consequences of their actions. If they had negotiated with even just a little responsibility, and reigned in their greed even just a little, this issue would have probably never come up, as it would have been a political non-starter. The GOP needs to put some ads together detailing these abuses. Run those for a couple of weeks and then see how many regular citizens support the union then, when their true colors are shown.

LOCOChief
03-09-2011, 02:48 PM
In addition, since the unions have shown that they have no regard for the solvency of the government, and thus have no respect for the taxpayer, they should lose their right to collectively bargain. They killed their golden goose, it is time that they suffer the consequences of their actions. If they had negotiated with even just a little responsibility, and reigned in their greed even just a little, this issue would have probably never come up, as it would have been a political non-starter. The GOP needs to put some ads together detailing these abuses. Run those for a couple of weeks and then see how many regular citizens support the union then, when their true colors are shown.


Very nice. :thumb:

Bwana
03-09-2011, 02:52 PM
Oh Kotter.......

KC Dan
03-09-2011, 03:02 PM
The issue is what to do about it, and usually throwing the baby out with the bathwater isn't necessarily the best answer.At this point, $14,000,000,000,000 + debt, $1.6Trillion deficits as far as the eye can see - Yes, Best Answer = it is time to flush it right down the sewer.

Bwana
03-09-2011, 03:19 PM
It looks like Idaho "gets it."

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/03/09/idaho-votes-phase-teacher-tenure-restrict-collective-bargaining/

mnchiefsguy
03-09-2011, 03:26 PM
It looks like Idaho "gets it."

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/03/09/idaho-votes-phase-teacher-tenure-restrict-collective-bargaining/

No protests in the streets? No attempts at recalling elected officials?

Amnorix
03-09-2011, 03:28 PM
At this point, $14,000,000,000,000 + debt, $1.6Trillion deficits as far as the eye can see - Yes, Best Answer = it is time to flush it right down the sewer.

Spare me. First, the union here is state, nto federal, so you're not even playing in the right ballpark. Second, you're blaming unions for the federal debt? That makes no sense whatsoever.

I agree that public employee unions have created serious issues for STATE budgets, and that we need to seriously dial back some things, including most important defined benefit pensions, which I have railed about on here for years. Your post, however, is somewhat akin to someone arguing that we should eliminate the Department of Defense because California's budget is troubled....

Garcia Bronco
03-09-2011, 03:29 PM
Well, they do pay taxes, and if there is any other requirement for calling yourself a "taxpayer" I don't think I'm aware of it.

I have been more anti-union than pro for the public workforce for a while now. It seems, unfortunately, to lead to inevitable abuses. It is in my view a problem, however, that Republicans are basically trying to ensure their own power by destroying unions. I'm not so fond of that, especially when the SCOTUS in its infinite wisdom ahs removed the shackles of corporations funding political advertisements etc.

Money taken out of their check....but the money was already tax payer dollars. It's like a bag of coke that's been stepped on so many times it's no longer coke anymore. In fact ...I would bet the money spent to even process their returns comes out in a wash or a deficit.

Garcia Bronco
03-09-2011, 03:33 PM
Spare me. First, the union here is state, nto federal, so you're not even playing in the right ballpark. Second, you're blaming unions for the federal debt? That makes no sense whatsoever.

I agree that public employee unions have created serious issues for STATE budgets, and that we need to seriously dial back some things, including most important defined benefit pensions, which I have railed about on here for years. Your post, however, is somewhat akin to someone arguing that we should eliminate the Department of Defense because California's budget is troubled....

Today Wisconsin is 17 billion in debt. They are in great shape compared to Cali, New Jersey, New York, IlliNoise, Michighan. If these financial cuts are made then the state will be 20.5 billion in debt by the end of fiscal 2012. The Union is okay with the cuts, however, what's to stop them in 3 years from putting the state right back where it was when new governemnt management is in place? Nothing. Which is why, in part, that the people of Wisconsin are going after collective bargaining for BENEFITS. Their pay would be subject to inflation and a vote.

KC Dan
03-09-2011, 03:33 PM
Spare me. First, the union here is state, nto federal, so you're not even playing in the right ballpark. Second, you're blaming unions for the federal debt? That makes no sense whatsoever.

I agree that public employee unions have created serious issues for STATE budgets, and that we need to seriously dial back some things, including most important defined benefit pensions, which I have railed about on here for years. Your post, however, is somewhat akin to someone arguing that we should eliminate the Department of Defense because California's budget is troubled....You got me, thread hijack FAIL!

These discussions about the public unions are just silly now. We all know what HAS to be done or the Feds will be bailing out a bunch of states or state and local taxes are gonna increase massively. Problem is, the people so vehemently against any changes in the public unions are a big voting block and carry much political clout on one side. This whole discussion has become tiresome to me. Maybe we need a few hundred more threads on the issue...

Amnorix
03-09-2011, 03:55 PM
Money taken out of their check....but the money was already tax payer dollars. It's like a bag of coke that's been stepped on so many times it's no longer coke anymore. In fact ...I would bet the money spent to even process their returns comes out in a wash or a deficit.

What about a Raytheon employee working exclusively on a government funded contract? His salary is entirely funded by a government contract.
Is he a taxpayer?

What about a police officer in Massachusetts doing a "detail" and therefore having a portion of his time reimbursed by the private corporation that was required by law to have a police officer supervising traffic while construction was going on. Is he a taxpayer? Perhaps a partial taxpayer?

What about the fact that a state public employee has MOST of his tax withholdings paid to the FEDERAL government, which is not the "source" of most/all of his paycheck. Is he a "real" taxpayer for federal purposes, but not a "real" taxpayer for state purposes because of the source of funds vis-a-vis the beneficiary of his tax payments?

How about the privately employed spouse of a public worker who relies entirely on the family benefits of the public worker. As a beneficiary of public dollars, is she only a partial taxpayer?

What about a Social Security or other public welfare recipient who still works and pays taxes. Another partial taxpayer?

I think you should give up this line of argument. It doesn't seem to be helping you any. Mostly because it's silly.

Amnorix
03-09-2011, 03:58 PM
Today Wisconsin is 17 billion in debt. They are in great shape compared to Cali, New Jersey, New York, IlliNoise, Michighan. If these financial cuts are made then the state will be 20.5 billion in debt by the end of fiscal 2012. The Union is okay with the cuts, however, what's to stop them in 3 years from putting the state right back where it was when new governemnt management is in place? Nothing. Which is why, in part, that the people of Wisconsin are going after collective bargaining for BENEFITS. Their pay would be subject to inflation and a vote.

The governor IS the people of Wisconsin now?

I'm mostly on your side on this, so I'm not going to argue this point really. It's fairly clear to me that public unions are broken in the sense that the usual counterparty -- an owner with a profit motive -- doesn't exist. The conflicted situation where politicians are negotiating with unions, who are also their supporters and voters, potentially, has resulted in a pretty bad dynamic in many, many circumstances.

All that said, if we could just eliminate defined benefit pensions, I would think that alone would go a very long way to curing the problems with public unions, which are mostly issues regarding politicians making promises regarding future, unfunded/underfunded obligations.

Chief Henry
03-09-2011, 04:16 PM
It looks like Idaho "gets it."

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/03/09/idaho-votes-phase-teacher-tenure-restrict-collective-bargaining/

:thumb:

and no riots in the streets, thats worth two :thumb: :thumb:

Hydrae
03-09-2011, 04:29 PM
Maybe no protests so far (just a little vandalism) but there are plans.


http://www.idahopress.com/news/article_44f83a1a-3921-11e0-ace1-001cc4c002e0.html

http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/120780/20110309/idaho-protest-education-bill-union-weakening.htm

They have had students protests:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/03/01/us-idaho-students-idUSTRE7200AB20110301

Der Flöprer
03-09-2011, 05:16 PM
If true, that is UTTERLY ridiculous.

mnchiefsguy
03-09-2011, 05:23 PM
Wow, the Idaho Superintendent of Public Instruction has his truck vandalized and is receiving threats, and the Idaho Education Association call for him to be more civil? Really?