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HonestChieffan
03-09-2011, 06:19 PM
Wis. GOP strips public workers' bargaining rights

By SCOTT BAUER
Associated Press


MADISON, Wis. (AP) -- Republicans in the Wisconsin Senate voted Wednesday night to strip nearly all collective bargaining rights from public workers after discovering a way to bypass the chamber's missing Democrats.

All 14 Senate Democrats fled to Illinois nearly three weeks ago, preventing the chamber from having enough members present to consider Gov. Scott Walker's so-called "budget repair bill" - a proposal introduced to plug a $137 million budget shortfall.

The Senate requires a quorum to take up any measures that spend money. But Republicans on Wednesday split from the legislation the proposal to curtail union rights, which spends no money, and a special conference committee of state lawmakers approved the bill a short time later.

The lone Democrat present on the conference committee, Rep. Tony Barca, shouted that the surprise meeting was a violation of the state's open meetings law but Republicans voted over his objections. The Senate then convened within minutes and passed it without discussion or debate.

Spectators in the gallery screamed "You are cowards."

Before the sudden votes, Democratic Sens. Bob Jauch said if Republicans "chose to ram this bill through in this fashion, it will be to their political peril. They're changing the rules. They will inflame a very frustrated public."


http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_WISCONSIN_BUDGET_UNIONS?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2011-03-09-19-27-44

Bwana
03-09-2011, 06:28 PM
LMAO

Nice

The Mad Crapper
03-09-2011, 06:31 PM
It's about time some R's showed some gonads and gave the left a taste of their own medicine.

Bwana
03-09-2011, 06:38 PM
Does this mean the Dems can quit playing "run and hide" and come home now? On a side note, who picked up the hotel tab? Was it them, or did the good people of WI get hung out to dry with that bill? Either way, what a low test thing to do.

mlyonsd
03-09-2011, 06:43 PM
Does this mean the Dems can quit playing "run and hide" and come home now? On a side note, who picked up the hotel tab? Was it them, or did the good people of WI get hung out to dry with that bill? Either way, what a low test thing to do.

They weren't playing run and hide....they were playing the revolutionary war by avoiding the enemy. /liberals

The Mad Crapper
03-09-2011, 06:45 PM
Does this mean the Dems can quit playing "run and hide" and come home now? On a side note, who picked up the hotel tab? Was it them, or did the good people of WI get hung out to dry with that bill? Either way, what a low test thing to do.

I think one of Barry's front groups paid the tab.

tmax63
03-09-2011, 06:45 PM
Supposedly they will be back on Thursday. The dems tried to pull a stunt and it backfired on them. Think of how much money the unions (and in turn the dems) just lost for the next campaign cycle. I hope they figure out a way to block out of state money next so the national level folks don't flood the state to try to buy the next election.

HonestChieffan
03-09-2011, 07:02 PM
Here are words to some Big Ten Music...


On, Wisconsin! On, Wisconsin!
Grand old badger state!
We, thy loyal sons and daughters,
Hail thee, good and great.
On, Wisconsin! On, Wisconsin!
Champion of the right,
“Forward”, our motto
God will give thee might!”

alnorth
03-09-2011, 07:20 PM
Does this mean the Dems can quit playing "run and hide" and come home now? On a side note, who picked up the hotel tab? Was it them, or did the good people of WI get hung out to dry with that bill? Either way, what a low test thing to do.

There's really no point for them to stay out now. Its done, all thats left is the budget.

TrebMaxx
03-09-2011, 07:26 PM
:clap: Well done. Well done indeed.

alnorth
03-09-2011, 07:36 PM
In case anyone is wondering about legal challenges (this was really a budget bill, it should have been 20 people for a quorum! The open meeting law was violated! Some other legislative rule was ignored!) opponents have a very, very, *VERY* steep hill to climb in court.

In the United States we have a very old and thoroughly ingrained tradition called "the Enrolled Bill Doctrine". Basically, it says that if a legislature says a bill passed, and everyone who needs to certify whatever needs to be certified, certifies the bill as passed, the court gives a huge amount of leeway and deference to the legislature and assumes the bill was passed legitimately.

This is a seperation of powers issue. The courts can interpret the law, but they stay out of the way when it comes to legislative rules and procedures. It usually takes something really nuts, like if a majority clearly voted no, but all the leaders and officers blatantly lie and said the bill passed when it obviously did not pass. Short of that, the courts don't get involved.

The idea behind the enrolled bill doctrine is that if some rule or procedure was not followed and a bill was passed that should not have been declared as passed, the people can always step in, vote the bums out, and demand whatever laws they want. There's an easy political remedy for legislative shenanigans, and the court's plate is full without adding this to it.

SNR
03-09-2011, 07:41 PM
I gotta think there will be some brutal election results for the Republicans in 2012. Just because Wisconsin won over independents and produced a Republican majority in the house and senate (not to mention electing a Republican governor) doesn't mean the state's voters don't still have that liberal streak to them. I think we're going to see a shift from red to blue as quickly as we saw a shift from blue to red.

I suppose that means I won't be able to go anywhere in this town for weeks without encountering a bunch of "Recall Walker!" morons protesting.

Saul Good
03-09-2011, 07:47 PM
I gotta think there will be some brutal election results for the Republicans in 2012. Just because Wisconsin won over independents and produced a Republican majority in the house and senate (not to mention electing a Republican governor) doesn't mean the state's voters don't still have that liberal streak to them. I think we're going to see a shift from red to blue as quickly as we saw a shift from blue to red.

I suppose that means I won't be able to go anywhere in this town for weeks without encountering a bunch of "Recall Walker!" morons protesting.

So be it. Wisconsin tends to be a blue state, and there's a long time between now and the 2012 elections.

RINGLEADER
03-09-2011, 07:51 PM
In case anyone is wondering about legal challenges (this was really a budget bill, it should have been 20 people for a quorum! The open meeting law was violated! Some other legislative rule was ignored!) opponents have a very, very, *VERY* steep hill to climb in court.

In the United States we have a very old and thoroughly ingrained tradition called "the Enrolled Bill Doctrine". Basically, it says that if a legislature says a bill passed, and everyone who needs to certify whatever needs to be certified, certifies the bill as passed, the court gives a huge amount of leeway and deference to the legislature and assumes the bill was passed legitimately.

This is a seperation of powers issue. The courts can interpret the law, but they stay out of the way when it comes to legislative rules and procedures. It usually takes something really nuts, like if a majority clearly voted no, but all the leaders and officers blatantly lie and said the bill passed when it obviously did not pass. Short of that, the courts don't get involved.

The idea behind the enrolled bill doctrine is that if some rule or procedure was not followed and a bill was passed that should not have been declared as passed, the people can always step in, vote the bums out, and demand whatever laws they want. There's an easy political remedy for legislative shenanigans, and the court's plate is full without adding this to it.

Very nice summary, but I still wouldn't put it past the Obama White House to try and concoct some type of federal issue to at least create the "question" of whether or not it didn't infringe on ... something.

Not saying it will happen... just saying it wouldn't surprise me.

RINGLEADER
03-09-2011, 07:52 PM
I gotta think there will be some brutal election results for the Republicans in 2012. Just because Wisconsin won over independents and produced a Republican majority in the house and senate (not to mention electing a Republican governor) doesn't mean the state's voters don't still have that liberal streak to them. I think we're going to see a shift from red to blue as quickly as we saw a shift from blue to red.

I suppose that means I won't be able to go anywhere in this town for weeks without encountering a bunch of "Recall Walker!" morons protesting.

Not with idiots like Michael Moore on the tube trying to convince us that the nation's problems are a revenue issue created by rich people. LOL

Donger
03-09-2011, 08:11 PM
Wis. GOP strips public workers' bargaining rights

By SCOTT BAUER
Associated Press


MADISON, Wis. (AP) -- Republicans in the Wisconsin Senate voted Wednesday night to strip nearly all collective bargaining rights from public workers after discovering a way to bypass the chamber's missing Democrats.

All 14 Senate Democrats fled to Illinois nearly three weeks ago, preventing the chamber from having enough members present to consider Gov. Scott Walker's so-called "budget repair bill" - a proposal introduced to plug a $137 million budget shortfall.

The Senate requires a quorum to take up any measures that spend money. But Republicans on Wednesday split from the legislation the proposal to curtail union rights, which spends no money, and a special conference committee of state lawmakers approved the bill a short time later.

The lone Democrat present on the conference committee, Rep. Tony Barca, shouted that the surprise meeting was a violation of the state's open meetings law but Republicans voted over his objections. The Senate then convened within minutes and passed it without discussion or debate.

Spectators in the gallery screamed "You are cowards."

Before the sudden votes, Democratic Sens. Bob Jauch said if Republicans "chose to ram this bill through in this fashion, it will be to their political peril. They're changing the rules. They will inflame a very frustrated public."


http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_WISCONSIN_BUDGET_UNIONS?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2011-03-09-19-27-44

LMAO

That's great.

ChiefaRoo
03-09-2011, 08:18 PM
I'm going to watch MSNBC all night just to watch Ed Schultz have a heart attack on air Chris Farley style.

HonestChieffan
03-09-2011, 08:20 PM
I'm going to watch MSNBC all night just to watch Ed Schultz have a heart attack on air Chris Farley style.


http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj27/DigDug111/butthurt.jpg

ROYC75
03-09-2011, 08:23 PM
Go figure, the missing brat school kids( Senate members ) disapprove?

ChiefaRoo
03-09-2011, 08:24 PM
:)

SNR
03-09-2011, 08:39 PM
So be it. Wisconsin tends to be a blue state, and there's a long time between now and the 2012 elections.True. I just had my hopes that Scott Walker would be longer than a one-term governor.

Maybe he'll win again. I keep forgetting that Madison ain't the only town in this state.

HonestChieffan
03-09-2011, 08:46 PM
Crazies have filled the capitol....this will be a mess.


<iframe width="560" height="340" src="http://cdn.livestream.com/embed/theuptake?layout=4&color=0xe7e7e7&autoPlay=false&mute=false&iconColorOver=0x888888&iconColor=0x777777&allowchat=true" style="border:0;outline:0" frameborder="0" scrolling="no"></iframe>

BucEyedPea
03-09-2011, 09:04 PM
Spectators in the gallery screamed "You are cowards."

Before the sudden votes, Democratic Sens. Bob Jauch said if Republicans "chose to ram this bill through in this fashion, it will be to their political peril. They're changing the rules. They will inflame a very frustrated public."


Talk about an extreme case of projection while the cowards just refuse to play by the rules by running away to their own peril. :LOL:

dirk digler
03-09-2011, 09:21 PM
This is what elections are for. They took a chance and now they will pay the price I am sure very shortly. I wouldn't be to surprised if Gov Walker will get recalled the first of next year and if that happens he will be out.

I also do find it funny that many that are laughing at this cried when the Dems rammed through Health Care. I guess that is off the table now

dirk digler
03-09-2011, 09:23 PM
Crazies have filled the capitol....this will be a mess.


<iframe src="http://cdn.livestream.com/embed/theuptake?layout=4&color=0xe7e7e7&autoPlay=false&mute=false&iconColorOver=0x888888&iconColor=0x777777&allowchat=true" style="border: 0pt none; outline: 0pt none;" frameborder="0" height="340" scrolling="no" width="560"></iframe>

Kind of like all those crazies yelling after the health care vote

SNR
03-09-2011, 09:23 PM
This is what elections are for. They took a chance and now they will pay the price I am sure very shortly. I wouldn't be to surprised if Gov Walker will get recalled the first of next year and if that happens he will be out.

I also do find it funny that many that are laughing at this cried when the Dems rammed through Health Care. I guess that is off the table nowWhat has Walker done wrong? How are they going to recall him?

mnchiefsguy
03-09-2011, 09:34 PM
I think it will be difficult to recall Walker. Doesn't a recall require a 2/3 vote?

CrazyPhuD
03-09-2011, 09:38 PM
This is what elections are for. They took a chance and now they will pay the price I am sure very shortly. I wouldn't be to surprised if Gov Walker will get recalled the first of next year and if that happens he will be out.

I also do find it funny that many that are laughing at this cried when the Dems rammed through Health Care. I guess that is off the table now

extremely doubtful. People's memories are short, if they were still futzing around without a budget trying to pass this then sure. But now it's just over and the vast majority of people will move on.

HonestChieffan
03-09-2011, 09:39 PM
Kind of like all those crazies yelling after the health care vote

Yea. Remember when the teaparty people took over the capitol building? The strikes all across the country? Tearing property up? The night they used handcuffs to luck themselves in in protest? Those were some good.....oh, wait....

Hmmm. Bad comparison there Dirkster. Michael Moore is calling it war!

BucEyedPea
03-09-2011, 09:42 PM
This is what elections are for. They took a chance and now they will pay the price I am sure very shortly. I wouldn't be to surprised if Gov Walker will get recalled the first of next year and if that happens he will be out.

I also do find it funny that many that are laughing at this cried when the Dems rammed through Health Care. I guess that is off the table now

Yeah the Dems rammed HC through not even knowing what was in it themselves just to do it and twisted arms with bribes to members of their own party. That's a bit different even if it shares some of the same things.

Recalls should be saved for more extreme situations like Davis in Cali not because a party lost an election and ran away from a vote. I wouldn't want to see a national trend for recalls. That's like being able to call an election anytime some people don't like something. Say they do recall Walker or even Rs and the Progressives get control in Wisconsin again. Then all the businesses just high-tail it out of the state or overseas. The Ds and Unions will be the first to whine about job losses when they were part of killing those jobs. The market will have the last say. Even in socialisms the market does—that's those lines you see for buying goods.

alnorth
03-09-2011, 09:42 PM
I think it will be difficult to recall Walker. Doesn't a recall require a 2/3 vote?

no, a recall election only needs a majority of voters, but there are two big issues with that.

1) A recall election for the governor of WI requires a HUGE number of signatures with just a 60-day window to get the signatures. (probably doable if someone wants to spend enough money on signature-gatherers)

2) Walker is completely 100% immune to recall until 2012. So, he can't be recalled no matter what for a while. By then, maybe the people wont care as much.

Garcia Bronco
03-09-2011, 09:47 PM
To recall an elected offical, you have to actually have a good reason. Passing legislation you might not like isn't a reason.

BucEyedPea
03-09-2011, 09:48 PM
Yea. Remember when the teaparty people took over the capitol building? The strikes all across the country? Tearing property up? The night they used handcuffs to luck themselves in in protest? Those were some good.....oh, wait....

Hmmm. Bad comparison there Dirkster. Michael Moore is calling it war!

Tearing up property—that's what they do.:grr:

dirk digler
03-09-2011, 09:56 PM
What has Walker done wrong? How are they going to recall him?

They can initiate a recall after 1 year. They need 540,000 signatures.

mnchiefsguy
03-09-2011, 09:59 PM
They can initiate a recall after 1 year. They need 540,000 signatures. T

That is a lot of signatures, not sure I see the Obama machine wanting to spend the money to get it done, especially when there is a chance the recall vote could fail. Better to just spend that money on winning the next election. To get Walker's bill reversed, they would have to not only recall Walker, but a large number of the legislators as well. I think that is too large a mountain to climb.

BucEyedPea
03-09-2011, 10:00 PM
That is a lot of signatures, not sure I see the Obama machine wanting to spend the money to get it done, especially when there is a chance the recall vote could fail. Better to just spend that money on winning the next election. To get Walker's bill reversed, they would have to not only recall Walker, but a large number of the legislators as well. I think that is too large a mountain to climb.

Obama is still being a Community Organizer.

dirk digler
03-09-2011, 10:04 PM
Yea. Remember when the teaparty people took over the capitol building? The strikes all across the country? Tearing property up? The night they used handcuffs to luck themselves in in protest? Those were some good.....oh, wait....

Hmmm. Bad comparison there Dirkster. Michael Moore is calling it war!

I seem to recall some spitting incident and maybe some racial names being called. ;)

alnorth
03-09-2011, 10:06 PM
I seem to recall some spitting incident and maybe some racial names being called. ;)

The point is that we don't govern by polls or by who is noisy and obnoxious. If the dems think the people want a huge change just weeks after an election, then prove it with another election.

dirk digler
03-09-2011, 10:07 PM
That is a lot of signatures, not sure I see the Obama machine wanting to spend the money to get it done, especially when there is a chance the recall vote could fail. Better to just spend that money on winning the next election. To get Walker's bill reversed, they would have to not only recall Walker, but a large number of the legislators as well. I think that is too large a mountain to climb.

It is and I normally would think that is too high of a hurdle but then you are talking about the unions here and they have the manpower and the anger to pull it off.

They already are working on recalling a few Republican senators

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB20001424052748703662804576189002398082020.html

HonestChieffan
03-09-2011, 10:08 PM
I seem to recall some spitting incident and maybe some racial names being called. ;)

No you dont. You recall accusations and a total lack of even one video of any such thing. Rest well with that.

dirk digler
03-09-2011, 10:10 PM
The point is that we don't govern by polls or by who is noisy and obnoxious. If the dems think the people want a huge change just weeks after an election, then prove it with another election.

I agree. I just think it is kind of funny how the roles have reversed now.

BucEyedPea
03-09-2011, 10:11 PM
I agree. I just think it is kind of funny how the roles have reversed now.

Was there a campaign to recall Obama, Pelosi or Reid?

Saul Good
03-09-2011, 10:11 PM
I seem to recall some spitting incident and maybe some racial names being called. ;)

I seem to remember a video of the incident showing up that proved that it never happened.

dirk digler
03-09-2011, 10:20 PM
I seem to remember a video of the incident showing up that proved that it never happened.

You guys have hard time with sarcasm that is why I gave a wink.

But let's not pretend that the protesters were all nice, holding hands and singing kumbaya.

We all saw the health care forums and it is well documented about all the threats, violence, and property damage that happened.

People were pissed just like the public union workers are.

patteeu
03-10-2011, 05:14 AM
I seem to recall some spitting incident and maybe some racial names being called. ;)

You mean some tall tales.

Amnorix
03-10-2011, 06:15 AM
It took the Republicans THIS long to figure out they could just split the bill and pass the objectionable part without the quorum requirement applying? Yeesh.

2012 will solve whether the Republicans made the right move or not.

eazyb81
03-10-2011, 06:22 AM
This was fantastic. I couldn't help but smile while reading this article.

The Dems pulled a total bitch move by leaving the f'n state and not working for weeks, and the Repubs finally burned them on it.

Hysterical.

BucEyedPea
03-10-2011, 06:31 AM
It took the Republicans THIS long to figure out they could just split the bill and pass the objectionable part without the quorum requirement applying? Yeesh.

I think that was the right move to try to involve the other party first. It showed the Democrats as being sore losers. Once that was revealed, it makes this move look right. It would not have been right as a first move. It would have made the Rs look worse.

Amnorix
03-10-2011, 06:36 AM
I think that was the right move to try to involve the other party first. It showed the Democrats as being sore losers. Once that was revealed, it makes this move look right. It would not have been right as a first move. It would have made the Rs look worse.

Maybe. :shrug:

The Rick
03-10-2011, 06:41 AM
Looks like, for the most part, they passed the ENTIRE original bill:

How the Wisconsin Senate Passed Walker’s Bill
March 09, 2011 10:11 PM
By*Christian Schneider

On Wednesday night, Wisconsin Senate Republicans did what most people thought impossible — they passed Governor Scott Walker’s budget-repair bill virtually intact, without having to split out controversial provisions that limited the ability for government employees to collectively bargain.

A*letter Democrat Senate Minority Leader Mark Miller sent the governor today, indicating Miller’s unwillingness to further negotiate any details of the bill, was what prompted the GOP’s decision to take the bill to the floor.

“It was like, ‘I’m in the minority, and I’m going to dictate to you what your options are,’” said one GOP source about Miller’s letter. It was just three days ago that Miller had sent Fitzgerald a letter urging more negotiations, despite the fact that Governor Walker had been negotiating with at least two Democrat senators for nearly a week. “With his recent letter, it became clear that all he wanted to do was stall,” said the GOP source.

Another action that provoked the GOP senators to act was Democrat Senator Lena Taylor’s very public decision to have a spring election absentee ballot sent to her in Illinois. The spring election is scheduled for April 5th, which indicated Taylor’s desire to stay out of the state for another month. “That sure didn’t help,” said one GOP source.

The Wisconsin Constitution requires a quorum of three-fifths of the Senate in order to pass a bill that “imposes, continues or renews a tax, or creates a debt or charge, or makes, continues or renews an appropriation of public or trust money, or releases, discharges or commutes a claim or demand of the state.” For weeks, it had been known that Republican senators could separate the fiscal provisions of the bill from the proposed collective-bargaining changes, which were seen as non-fiscal. However, there was speculation that, if a bill was brought to the Senate floor that contained only the collective bargaining changes, it might not have the votes to pass.*

On Wednesday night, the bill passed with a number of provisions that could be considered “fiscal,” such as the requirement that many government employees contribute 5.8 percent of their salaries to their pensions and pay 12.6 percent towards their health-insurance premiums.

GOP senators consulted with the Legislative Fiscal Bureau on this point, and were sent a memo indicating that while there were some “fiscal” provisions of the bill, these provisions didn’t technically make an “appropriation,” and therefore were not subject to the three-fifth quorum requirement. This allowed senators to keep the bill virtually intact, which the GOP felt helped bolster their argument that all the collective bargaining changes were, in fact, fiscal in nature.

What is perhaps most stunning is that Fitzgerald’s maneuver tonight seems to have caught the Democrat Minority Leader completely off guard. Senators Miller and Fitzgerald have access to the same legislative attorneys and were likely given the same options for resolution.* “I think [Miller] actually thought he was going to win,” said one GOP source.

Following the vote on the bill, GOP senators were hustled out of the Capitol via an underground tunnel that takes them to a government building across the street. For the past few days, senators have made this walk and been loaded onto a bus that takes them to their cars parked in a remote area. Yet after the vote, protesters had apparently caught wind of this process and surrounded the bus full of senators.* One witness told me he had seen protesters surrounding the bus and trying to rock it back and forth.

The bill now goes to the Assembly, where it is likely Democrats will try to delay its passage by filibustering indefinitely. Assembly Speaker Jeff Fitzgerald will likely limit debate, which will lead to accusations that the GOP is “silencing” the minority.
http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/261804/how-wisconsin-senate-passed-walkers-bill-christian-schneider

Amnorix
03-10-2011, 06:43 AM
There is of course alot of political grandstanding going on. Some moron on the left said the Republicans by their conduct had stripped away "50 years of civil rights", comparing, basically, union rights with civil rights. :shake:

The one thing I wanted to mention, however, was this:

Raises would be capped to the rate of inflation, unless state voters approve.

While I could certainly see that being a benefit under many circumstances, I think long term that provision could be a serious problem for the state. Any time the raise is LESS than inflation, then workers are falling behind in real dollars. And because of this rule, there's no way to catch up. Depending on how it's worded, it could also affect bonuses, which may not have been intended.

I could easily see a situation 10-20 years down the road where governmental jobs in Wisconsin are so underpaid they struggle to find decent talent to fill them, while voters routinely reject any such override. While we can all decry various union abuses and such, it's nto really a great idea to have a LAW that unavoidably creates a situation where the state workforce is almost definitely going to weed out anybody with talent being hired, or remaining with the government.

There's also a serious problem with linking raises with inflation -- what rate of inflation? While there is one rate that is commonly bandied about, that's not the rate of salary increases for the workforce. You could easily have a situation where the "rate of inflation" doesn't remotely keep up with employee salaries in the private sector or in surrounding states leading, once again, to a serious problem.

I suppose those here on the right wouldn't see these as problems to begin with, but I think it won't be too many years before that particular provision gets repealed, either by Democrats returning to power, or by Republicans learning the hard way that it creates more problems than it solves.

Amnorix
03-10-2011, 06:46 AM
I think that was the right move to try to involve the other party first. It showed the Democrats as being sore losers. Once that was revealed, it makes this move look right. It would not have been right as a first move. It would have made the Rs look worse.

Per the newest article posted, apparently splitting the bill was a known approach, so you're likely right.

mlyonsd
03-10-2011, 07:08 AM
It took the Republicans THIS long to figure out they could just split the bill and pass the objectionable part without the quorum requirement applying? Yeesh.

2012 will solve whether the Republicans made the right move or not.

Krauthammer has been saying they could split the bill for over a week so I doubt they didn't know it could be done.

Then Walker gave them one more chance to come to the bargaining table but they refused. I expect that was more for his political future than if he he really cared and wanted to compromise.

Radar Chief
03-10-2011, 07:16 AM
Krauthammer has been saying they could split the bill for over a week so I doubt they didn't know it could be done.

Then Walker gave them one more chance to come to the bargaining table but they refused. I expect that was more for his political future than if he he really cared and wanted to compromise.

Besides, it gave the out of state union thugs and kids ditching class time to run out of steam.

JonesCrusher
03-10-2011, 07:21 AM
Wis. GOP strips public workers' bargaining rights

By SCOTT BAUER
Associated Press


All 14 Senate Democrats fled to Illinois nearly three weeks ago, preventing the chamber from having enough members present to consider Gov. Scott Walker's so-called "budget repair bill" - a proposal introduced to plug a $137 million budget shortfall.


http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_WISCONSIN_BUDGET_UNIONS?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2011-03-09-19-27-44

What is this, The Dukes Of Hazard, they cross a state line and they are untouchable?

headsnap
03-10-2011, 07:33 AM
Per the newest article posted, apparently splitting the bill was a known approach, so you're likely right.

it has been known and reported for weeks now...

Garcia Bronco
03-10-2011, 07:42 AM
If I we a fellow Senator I would make sure their expense reports were denied fkr the time gone.

Garcia Bronco
03-10-2011, 07:44 AM
Besides, it gave the out of state union thugs and kids ditching class time to run out of steam.

I've been looking at protestor. Most of them are college kids. Not even people with civil service jobs.

Saul Good
03-10-2011, 08:08 AM
There is of course alot of political grandstanding going on. Some moron on the left said the Republicans by their conduct had stripped away "50 years of civil rights", comparing, basically, union rights with civil rights. :shake:

The one thing I wanted to mention, however, was this:



While I could certainly see that being a benefit under many circumstances, I think long term that provision could be a serious problem for the state. Any time the raise is LESS than inflation, then workers are falling behind in real dollars. And because of this rule, there's no way to catch up. Depending on how it's worded, it could also affect bonuses, which may not have been intended.

I could easily see a situation 10-20 years down the road where governmental jobs in Wisconsin are so underpaid they struggle to find decent talent to fill them, while voters routinely reject any such override. While we can all decry various union abuses and such, it's nto really a great idea to have a LAW that unavoidably creates a situation where the state workforce is almost definitely going to weed out anybody with talent being hired, or remaining with the government.

There's also a serious problem with linking raises with inflation -- what rate of inflation? While there is one rate that is commonly bandied about, that's not the rate of salary increases for the workforce. You could easily have a situation where the "rate of inflation" doesn't remotely keep up with employee salaries in the private sector or in surrounding states leading, once again, to a serious problem.

I suppose those here on the right wouldn't see these as problems to begin with, but I think it won't be too many years before that particular provision gets repealed, either by Democrats returning to power, or by Republicans learning the hard way that it creates more problems than it solves.

That's not really accurate. (It's not inaccurate either. It just doesn't tell the whole story.)

Teachers are paid on a grid. You can give teachers a step raise each year which increases their salaries. You can also move them over a level each time they increase their educational level which also increases their salaries. On top of this, the unions generally negotiate a "raise" which means that every number on the grid increases by "X" percent.

My wife routinely gets 3 pay increases per year. I have attached an example of the grid which should make it easier to understand. The step raises are still allowed. The educational raises are still allowed. The across-the-board raises are still allowed, but they are capped at inflation unless it passes a vote. I see nothing wrong with this.

HonestChieffan
03-10-2011, 08:10 AM
Half of Capitol Controlled by Protesters, 'No One Is Safe........


Unions and dems better get a lid on these nutjobs. Any political capital they could have had will go down the tubes when they start doing crazy stuff.

http://nation.foxnews.com/politics/2011/03/10/half-capitol-controlled-protesters-no-one-safe-national-guard-option-table

Saul Good
03-10-2011, 08:14 AM
I love it. These people are petulant brats, and the country will get to see it for what it is.

The Mad Crapper
03-10-2011, 08:27 AM
Half of Capitol Controlled by Protesters, 'No One Is Safe........


Unions and dems better get a lid on these nutjobs. Any political capital they could have had will go down the tubes when they start doing crazy stuff.

http://nation.foxnews.com/politics/2011/03/10/half-capitol-controlled-protesters-no-one-safe-national-guard-option-table

Stupid fucks. :drool:

Amnorix
03-10-2011, 08:36 AM
That's not really accurate. (It's not inaccurate either. It just doesn't tell the whole story.)

Teachers are paid on a grid. You can give teachers a step raise each year which increases their salaries. You can also move them over a level each time they increase their educational level which also increases their salaries. On top of this, the unions generally negotiate a "raise" which means that every number on the grid increases by "X" percent.

My wife routinely gets 3 pay increases per year. I have attached an example of the grid which should make it easier to understand. The step raises are still allowed. The educational raises are still allowed. The across-the-board raises are still allowed, but they are capped at inflation unless it passes a vote. I see nothing wrong with this.

I understand the system (though I didn't know it specifically before). My point is a narrower one.

The concept of "linking raises to inflation" sounds much easier than it is. Inflation isn't one number that applies to everything across the nation. It is different depending on the product or service, and in this case, differetn depending on the type of job.

It can also vary, greatly, by region.

Depending on how they pick their number, and whether they automatically max out at the inflation number over time they could find themselves seriously out of step in the competitive hiring environment. We can all only pray that the hiring environment IS competitive, which will mean that unemployment is lower.

I imagine they're using the ECI from the linked chart for the appropriate type of worker. Not much else would make sense. But if they decide to go less than inflation some years, then they could easily "fall behind' and never be able to catch up without a voter override.

http://www.bls.gov/news.release/eci.toc.htm

Saul Good
03-10-2011, 08:40 AM
I understand the system (though I didn't know it specifically before). My point is a narrower one.

The concept of "linking raises to inflation" sounds much easier than it is. Inflation isn't one number that applies to everything across the nation. It is different depending on the product or service, and in this case, differetn depending on the type of job.

It can also vary, greatly, by region.

Depending on how they pick their number, and whether they automatically max out at the inflation number over time they could find themselves seriously out of step in the competitive hiring environment. We can all only pray that the hiring environment IS competitive, which will mean that unemployment is lower.

I imagine they're using the ECI from the linked chart for the appropriate type of worker. Not much else would make sense. But if they decide to go less than inflation some years, then they could easily "fall behind' and never be able to catch up without a voter override.

http://www.bls.gov/news.release/eci.toc.htm

I understand what you are saying. It just doesn't seem likely to me that it will cause a major problem. If the residents of Wisconsin are behind the teachers as much as the unions seem to think, they can vote them huge raises every year.

Lzen
03-10-2011, 08:46 AM
Half of Capitol Controlled by Protesters, 'No One Is Safe........


Unions and dems better get a lid on these nutjobs. Any political capital they could have had will go down the tubes when they start doing crazy stuff.

http://nation.foxnews.com/politics/2011/03/10/half-capitol-controlled-protesters-no-one-safe-national-guard-option-table


Wow. :shake:

talastan
03-10-2011, 10:04 AM
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/you-will-die-read-the-shocking-e-mail-sent-to-wis-gop-senators/

‘YOU WILL DIE!!!!’: Read the Shocking E-Mail Sent to Wis. GOP Senators

Posted on March 10, 2011 at 11:21am by Jonathon M. Seidl

The following is a shocking, scary e-mail sent to Wisconsin GOP senators last night at around 9:30 pm, shortly after the Senate passed an anti-union bill. Not only does the e-mail threaten the senators with death, but it also vows “your familes [sic] will also be killed due to your actions in the last 8 weeks.”

Local station WTMJ in Milwaukee obtained the e-mail, and has redacted the sender’s name pending an investigation by the police (emphasis added and spelling and grammar mistakes have not been corrected):

From: XXXX
Sent: Wed 3/9/2011 9:18 PM
To: Sen.Kapanke; Sen.Darling; Sen.Cowles; Sen.Ellis; Sen.Fitzgerald; Sen.Galloway; Sen.Grothman; Sen.Harsdorf; Sen.Hopper; Sen.Kedzie; Sen.Lasee; Sen.Lazich; Sen.Leibham; Sen.Moulton; Sen.Olsen
Subject: Atten: Death threat!!!! Bomb!!!!

Please put your things in order because you will be killed and your familes
will also be killed due to your actions in the last 8 weeks. Please explain
to them that this is because if we get rid of you and your families then it
will save the rights of 300,000 people and also be able to close the deficit
that you have created. I hope you have a good time in hell. Read below for
more information on possible scenarios in which you will die.

WE want to make this perfectly clear. Because of your actions today and in
the past couple of weeks I and the group of people that are working with me
have decided that we’ve had enough. We feel that you and the people that
support the dictator have to die. We have tried many other ways of dealing
with your corruption but you have taken things too far and we will not stand
for it any longer. So, this is how it’s going to happen: I as well as many
others know where you and your family live, it’s a matter of public records.
We have all planned to assult you by arriving at your house and putting a
nice little bullet in your head. However, we decided that we wouldn’t leave
it there. We also have decided that this may not be enough to send the
message to you since you are so “high” on Koch and have decided that you are
now going to single handedly make this a dictatorship instead of a
demorcratic process. So we have also built several bombs that we have placed
in various locations around the areas in which we know that you frequent.
This includes, your house, your car, the state capitol, and well I won’t
tell you all of them because that’s just no fun. Since we know that you are
not smart enough to figure out why this is happening to you we have decided
to make it perfectly clear to you. If you and your goonies feel that it’s
necessary to strip the rights of 300,000 people and ruin their lives, making
them unable to feed, clothe, and provide the necessities to their families
and themselves then We Will “get rid of” (in which I mean kill) you. Please
understand that this does not include the heroic Rep. Senator that risked
everything to go aganist what you and your goonies wanted him to do. We feel
that it’s worth our lives to do this, because we would be saving the lives
of 300,000 people. Please make your peace with God as soon as possible and
say goodbye to your loved ones we will not wait any longer. YOU WILL DIE!!!!



WTMJ confirmed police are investigating several death threats, including the e-mail above.

Wisconsin GOP senators were told toe flee the Capitol almost immediately after their vote because police said “it was not safe.”

How about that civility and non-violent political retoric? :eek:

HonestChieffan
03-10-2011, 10:06 AM
sounds like campus in 1970

LiveSteam
03-10-2011, 10:25 AM
<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="640" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/5kxc6kzH-uI" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

SNR
03-10-2011, 11:03 AM
I swung by the capitol last night at around 11 PM to check things out. It's really not that bad. Things were way worse about a week ago when all those other protestors were bused in.

Chief Henry
03-10-2011, 11:04 AM
If I we a fellow Senator I would make sure their expense reports were denied fkr the time gone.

George Soros will/could come through and pay for the THREE weeks the Ws. Senators ran up the hotel bill and take out orders.

patteeu
03-10-2011, 01:49 PM
I think that was the right move to try to involve the other party first. It showed the Democrats as being sore losers. Once that was revealed, it makes this move look right. It would not have been right as a first move. It would have made the Rs look worse.

I agree.

patteeu
03-10-2011, 02:01 PM
I understand the system (though I didn't know it specifically before). My point is a narrower one.

The concept of "linking raises to inflation" sounds much easier than it is. Inflation isn't one number that applies to everything across the nation. It is different depending on the product or service, and in this case, differetn depending on the type of job.

It can also vary, greatly, by region.

Depending on how they pick their number, and whether they automatically max out at the inflation number over time they could find themselves seriously out of step in the competitive hiring environment. We can all only pray that the hiring environment IS competitive, which will mean that unemployment is lower.

I imagine they're using the ECI from the linked chart for the appropriate type of worker. Not much else would make sense. But if they decide to go less than inflation some years, then they could easily "fall behind' and never be able to catch up without a voter override.

http://www.bls.gov/news.release/eci.toc.htm

I wouldn't worry about it too much. In good times it will be a lot easier to loosen that requirement than it is to put cost saving restrictions like these in place during hard times. I doubt that a horde of crazies will descend on the Capitol 5 or 10 years from now when the senator majority want to allow teachers to get bigger raises.

BucEyedPea
03-10-2011, 04:07 PM
I swung by the capitol last night at around 11 PM to check things out. It's really not that bad. Things were way worse about a week ago when all those other protestors were bused in.

Cool thanks. I would like an updated report next week k? :p

kcpasco
03-10-2011, 08:25 PM
I just scratch my head at all you dumb fucks who think 100k a year is rich.

BucEyedPea
03-10-2011, 09:04 PM
I just scratch my head at all you dumb ****s who think 100k a year is rich.

I don't know anyone who think that's rich. But it's good pay especially for certain jobs and especially for one of the best part time jobs with a summer off. A lot of people would love to make that today even without all that time off.

BTW no one who is complaining about this public employee union conflict in Wisc are against private sector unions.
So if you're a sheet metal worker I hope it's not for the govt....because they have less people to tax for those making good pay right now. If mostly everyone else is taking a pay reduction why not public employees?

patteeu
03-11-2011, 05:29 AM
I just scratch my head at all you dumb ****s who think 100k a year is rich.

Yep, that's true, but it doesn't mean teachers making that much aren't overpaid. There may be a few special teachers here and there who are worth that, but because most of them are so easily replaceable, most of them aren't.

The Mad Crapper
03-11-2011, 05:41 AM
I just scratch my head at all you dumb ****s who think 100k a year is rich.

That's a false narrative.

Nobody is complaining about someone making that kind of money, they are complaining about having to foot the bill. The taxpayer has a right to know how and where their money is being spent.

http://www.philly.com/philly/news/20110311_Taxpayers_eat_the_cost_of_PHA_fine_dining.html

Saul Good
03-11-2011, 07:30 AM
I just scratch my head at all you dumb fucks who think 100k a year is rich.

I just scratch my head at the dumb fuck who thinks that anything short of "rich" means underpaid.

Bwana
03-11-2011, 09:01 AM
It sounds like Walker just signed off on this and the hippys are now being removed. Now the libs can come back home from their IL vacation.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/03/10/police-remove-protesters-wisconsin-capitol/

Chief Henry
03-11-2011, 09:19 AM
It sounds like Walker just signed off on this and the hippys are now being removed. Now the libs can come back home from their IL vacation.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/03/10/police-remove-protesters-wisconsin-capitol/

:thumb:

The Mad Crapper
03-11-2011, 09:49 AM
It sounds like Walker just signed off on this and the hippys are now being removed. Now the libs can come back home from their IL vacation.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/03/10/police-remove-protesters-wisconsin-capitol/

18 days in Illinois. I'd of killed myself. ROFL