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RedNeckRaider
07-22-2011, 02:09 PM
Sure. Haven't you ever levitated before? Geesh! ;)

I took exception to some of your posts and responded in a rather rude manner. We have discussed this privately. I was rude in the open forum and will apologize in the open forum~

Donger
07-22-2011, 02:17 PM
A terror group, Ansar al-Jihad al-Alami, or the Helpers of the Global Jihad, issued a statement claiming responsibility for the attack

I guess that could be a Christian terror group, but it doesn't sound very likely.

go bowe
07-22-2011, 02:23 PM
A terror group, Ansar al-Jihad al-Alami, or the Helpers of the Global Jihad, issued a statement claiming responsibility for the attack

I guess that could be a Christian terror group, but it doesn't sound very likely.

yeah, i think the al-jihad part gave it away...

stevieray
07-22-2011, 02:34 PM
That first idea is a bit tricky. God is viewed in the same way in Christianity, with Jesus as the one you can have a personal relationship with. How is that (Islam) different than a religion based on the Old Testament though?


Not sure what you mean by the second statement.

Incorrect. God not only revealed himself to the prophets of the OT, he had close relationships with them, creating extreme men of faith. Jesus came for the Jew and the Gentile....in essence, all men. Allah would be lowering himself to have a personal relationship.

Muslims don't have a personal God, rather an impersonal diety. That eliminates any absolute moral right or wrong. Man is what he is because that is his nature and it has never changed...he errs because he is ignorant (see frankies eleventy billion remarks)...this leads leads to a fatalistic acceptance of life's circumstances, and and an attitude of moral relativism.

The Bible teaches that man has a sin nature,...and is held accountable through moral standards.

HonestChieffan
07-22-2011, 02:39 PM
The Norsks are a warlike race. Being of Swedish heritage I cannot blame the islamists for wanting to halt these evil aggressors. But they should have attacked by sea in boats rowed by slaves, plundered, pillaged, and left for home. The islamist way is chickenshit.

ForeverChiefs58
07-22-2011, 03:17 PM
A terror group, Ansar al-Jihad al-Alami, or the Helpers of the Global Jihad, issued a statement claiming responsibility for the attack

I guess that could be a Christian terror group, but it doesn't sound very likely.

It was probably just the KKK. They were probably just going to Africa or israel to kill some blacks or jews and took a wrong turn.

Christians could be behind it also. maybe they took a voyage to try and find some abortion clinics. Word on the street is the Swiss have too libral views on abortion.

Or maybe it was just in response to that new Kenny Powers commercial, I mean why would he pick Matt Cassel as his QB?

HonestChieffan
07-22-2011, 03:23 PM
Is Phelps in play on this thing?

ForeverChiefs58
07-22-2011, 03:26 PM
Is Phelps in play on this thing?


Is gay marriage legal there?

HonestChieffan
07-22-2011, 03:40 PM
Is gay marriage legal there?

Good question. That marriage thing under sharia is pretty loose. The Norsks are probably less likely to get into the sharia definitions. Just today, one of thos fatwa things came down ( http://www.raymondibrahim.com/9956/new-saudi-fatwa-defends-pedophilia-as-marriage ) reinforcing marriage to girls at like 8.

Seems pretty strange to me but must be acceptable out in the desert.

go bowe
07-22-2011, 03:43 PM
Good question. That marriage thing under sharia is pretty loose. The Norsks are probably less likely to get into the sharia definitions. Just today, one of thos fatwa things came down ( http://www.raymondibrahim.com/9956/new-saudi-fatwa-defends-pedophilia-as-marriage ) reinforcing marriage to girls at like 8.

Seems pretty strange to me but must be acceptable out in the desert.

8?

that's just a little young for me...

if they want little boys, why don't they just marry them instead?

ForeverChiefs58
07-22-2011, 03:46 PM
8?

that's just a little young for me...

if they want little boys, why don't they just marry them instead?

Well duh, cause that's frowned upon.

HonestChieffan
07-22-2011, 03:58 PM
8?

that's just a little young for me...

if they want little boys, why don't they just marry them instead?

Its all very icky....
Isn't it?

listopencil
07-22-2011, 05:19 PM
Incorrect. God not only revealed himself to the prophets of the OT, he had close relationships with them, creating extreme men of faith. Jesus came for the Jew and the Gentile....in essence, all men. Allah would be lowering himself to have a personal relationship.

Not relevant to the discussion. Those prophets delivered a message because God did not reveal himself to anyone else, denying the general public a personal relationship with Him. As I said.


Muslims don't have a personal God, rather an impersonal diety. That eliminates any absolute moral right or wrong. Man is what he is because that is his nature and it has never changed...he errs because he is ignorant (see frankies eleventy billion remarks)...this leads leads to a fatalistic acceptance of life's circumstances, and and an attitude of moral relativism. Incorrect. The Muslims have a sacred text and their own prophets. If the prophets of the Bible had allowed the masses to form a personal relationship with God, then why would that not be true of Islam? Furthermore, a moral code is not dependent upon a religious belief.


The Bible teaches that man has a sin nature,...and is held accountable through moral standards.Which is a great way of making you feel guilty without having done anything. Original Sin is hogwash.

listopencil
07-22-2011, 05:22 PM
Nothing to see here folks, it's just a few nut jobs, kinda like that whole christian thingy 1,000 ****ing years ago, or the whole racist KKK thingy bob, move right along ya lookie loos.



Oh, are we back to googling terrorist attacks to copy and paste again?

ForeverChiefs58
07-22-2011, 05:44 PM
Oh, are we back to googling terrorist attacks to copy and paste again?

No need to google it. It happens daily, take your head out of the sand and pay attention as to why this thread is having the discussion of such large numbers of violent followers of islam.

listopencil
07-22-2011, 05:50 PM
No need to google it. It happens daily, take your head out of the sand and pay attention as to why this thread is having the discussion of such large numbers of violent followers of islam.


That's funny. Since you choose to completely ignore any terrorists acts committed by Christians, and claim that bringing them up is some kind of slur against Christianity. Islam itself doesn't promote terrorism any more than any of the other major religions. Want me a to lend you a box of Q-Tips to clean all of that sand out?

Frankie
07-22-2011, 05:50 PM
A terror group, Ansar al-Jihad al-Alami, or the Helpers of the Global Jihad, issued a statement claiming responsibility for the attack

I guess that could be a Christian terror group, but it doesn't sound very likely.

Irrelevant to the discussion. Whether they did it or not they are the crazies of the Islamic world.

vailpass
07-22-2011, 06:00 PM
That's funny. Since you choose to completely ignore any terrorists acts committed by Christians, and claim that bringing them up is some kind of slur against Christianity. Islam itself doesn't promote terrorism any more than any of the other major religions. Want me a to lend you a box of Q-Tips to clean all of that sand out?

Lets keep a list. On one side we can put all of the terrorist acts committed by Christians and on the other all the terrorist acts committed by Muslims. Starting today. What do you say?

listopencil
07-22-2011, 06:08 PM
Lets keep a list. On one side we can put all of the terrorist acts committed by Christians and on the other all the terrorist acts committed by Muslims. Starting today. What do you say?


So nothing that any Christians have done before right now counts? How very convenient for anyone trying to validate their prejudices.

Frankie
07-22-2011, 06:12 PM
Incorrect. I love it when some backward thinking religious fundamentalist proudly declares a universally accepted fact as "incorrect."LMAO Shows the extent of how deep his reliance on mythology is.

God not only revealed himself to the prophets of the OT, he had close relationships with them, creating extreme men of faith. Jesus came for the Jew and the Gentile....in essence, all men. Allah would be lowering himself to have a personal relationship.
That's the most laughable superstitious mumbo jumbo you have ever posted. You are killing us. Anybody who has read the OT and applied a little thought to it knows that the God of OT is the most jealous, vane, power-mad, bully entity who regards humans as nothing but gnats he can zap out of existence. He in fact boasts about it and threatens man to death at every corner.

Furthermore your description of "Allah" (who in your closed mind obviously is a different God than God of Abraham) is strictly out of your own ass. Otherwise please link a credible link that discusses this.

Muslims don't have a personal God, rather an impersonal diety. That eliminates any absolute moral right or wrong.

That's why a true practicing Muslim personally prays to God 5 times a day regardless of where he/she is. As opposed to praying once a week in a church like hypocrites like you do with your "special relationship" with God do.

The Bible teaches that man has a sin nature,...and is held accountable through moral standards.
Why does shaming someone that he was born of sin a prerequisite to expectations of moral standards. There are more and more research that points to the fact that this bullshit was injected into Christianity by Popes of centuries ago. And close minded people like you are still sucking on it.

Frankie
07-22-2011, 06:15 PM
That's funny. Since you choose to completely ignore any terrorists acts committed by Christians, and claim that bringing them up is some kind of slur against Christianity. Islam itself doesn't promote terrorism any more than any of the other major religions. Want me a to lend you a box of Q-Tips to clean all of that sand out?

Don't try. HCF is an angry hater with a chip onm his shoulder and a lot of time on his hand.

BucEyedPea
07-22-2011, 06:16 PM
Which is a great way of making you feel guilty without having done anything. Original Sin is hogwash.

All Original Ain means is the capacity to do wrong. We all have that capacity.

BucEyedPea
07-22-2011, 06:17 PM
Lets keep a list. On one side we can put all of the terrorist acts committed by Christians and on the other all the terrorist acts committed by Muslims. Starting today. What do you say?

So long as we count drone attacks and bombs on civilians whether they are collateral of not.
Then count the totals.

Frankie
07-22-2011, 06:19 PM
Lets keep a list. On one side we can put all of the terrorist acts committed by Christians and on the other all the terrorist acts committed by Muslims. Starting today. What do you say?

Hey, dumbass, what part of "today is when global politics creates radicals in the Islamic world" did you not understand?!

All he is saying is that Islam is no more a teacher of violence than any other religion.

vailpass
07-22-2011, 06:19 PM
So nothing that any Christians have done before right now counts? How very convenient for anyone trying to validate their prejudices.

LMAO You ever get tired of being a pussy?

ForeverChiefs58
07-22-2011, 06:19 PM
According to http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/index.html#Attacks, Islamic terrorists have carried out more than 17,489 terrorists attacks since 9/11.

The list of terrorist attacks committed by Muslims since 9/11/01 is a rate of about five a day.

vailpass
07-22-2011, 06:20 PM
Hey, dumbass, what part of "today is when global politics creates radicals in the Islamic world" did you not understand?!

All he is saying is that Islam is no more a teacher of violence than any other religion.

Exactly what I thought you'd say. When in an indefensible position it is best to try and wiggle out.

ForeverChiefs58
07-22-2011, 06:20 PM
Ten Obvious Reasons Why
Islam is NOT a Religion of Peace




#1 17,000 deadly terror attacks committed explicitly in the name of Islam in just the last ten years. (Other religions combined for perhaps a dozen or so).


#2 Muhammad, the prophet of Islam, had people killed for insulting him or for criticizing his religion. This included women. Muslims are told to emulate the example of Muhammad.


#3 Muhammad said in many places that he has been "ordered by Allah to fight men until they testify that there is no god but Allah and that Muhammad is his messenger." In the last nine years of his life, he ordered no less than 65 military campaigns to do exactly that.

Muhammad inspired his men to war with the basest of motives, using captured loot, sex and a gluttonous paradise as incentives. He beheaded captives, enslaved children and raped women captured in battle. Again, Muslims are told to emulate the example of Muhammad.



#4 After Muhammad died, the people who lived with him and knew his religion best immediately fell into war with each other.

Fatima, Muhammad's favorite daughter, survived the early years among the unbelievers at Mecca safe and sound, yet died of stress from the persecution of fellow Muslims only six months after her father died.

Fatima's husband Ali, who was the second convert to Islam and was raised like a son to Muhammad, fought a civil war against an army raised by Aisha, Muhammad's favorite wife - and one whom he had said was a "perfect woman." 10,000 Muslims were killed in a single battle waged less than 25 years after Muhammad's death.

Three of the first four Muslim rulers (caliphs) were murdered. All of them were among Muhammad's closest companions. The third caliph was killed by allies of the son of the first (who was murdered by the fifth caliph a few years later, then wrapped in the skin of a dead donkey and burned). The fourth caliph (Ali) was stabbed to death after a bitter dispute with the fifth. The fifth caliph went on to poison one of Muhammad's two favorite grandsons. The other grandson was later beheaded by the sixth caliph.

The infighting and power struggles between Muhammad's family members, closest companions and their children only intensified with time. Within 50 short years of Muhammad's death, even the Kaaba, which had stood for centuries under pagan religion, lay in ruins from internal Muslim war...

And that's just the fate of those within the house of Islam!



#5 Muhammad directed Muslims to wage war on other religions and bring them under submission to Islam. Within the first few decades following his death, his Arabian companions invaded and conquered Christian, Jewish, Hindu, Buddhist and Zoroastrian lands.
A mere 25 years after Muhammad's death, Muslim armies had captured land and people within the borders of over 28 modern countries outside of Saudi Arabia.



#6 Muslims continued their Jihad against other religions for 1400 years, checked only by the ability of non-Muslims to defend themselves. To this day, not a week goes by that Islamic fundamentalists do not attempt to kill Christians, Jews, Hindus and Buddhists explicitly in the name of Allah.

None of these other religions are at war with each other.



#7 Islam is the only religion that has to retain its membership by threatening to kill anyone who leaves. This is according to the example set by Muhammad.


#8 Islam teaches that non-Muslims are less than fully human. Muhammad said that Muslims can be put to death for murder, but that a Muslim could never be put to death for killing a non-Muslim.


#9
The Qur'an never once speaks of Allah's love for non-Muslims, but it speaks of Allah's cruelty toward and hatred of non-Muslims more than 500 times.


#10

"Allahu Akbar! Allahu Akbar! Allahu Akbar!"
(The last words from the cockpit of Flight 93)


http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Pages/Top-10-Reasons.htm

HonestChieffan
07-22-2011, 06:21 PM
Don't try. HCF is an angry hater with a chip onm his shoulder and a lot of time on his hand.

Thats not true. Im not Angry or a hater. And certainly no chip on my shoulder. I enjoy our banter and exchange of views.

I do have a lot of time however so you have it partially correct

listopencil
07-22-2011, 06:24 PM
All Original Sin means is the capacity to do wrong. We all have that capacity.


I agree that humans have great capacity for Good and/or Evil. But that's not all that Original Sin means. To accept Original Sin is to accept that at some point a person committed a sin that you personally must atone for.

ForeverChiefs58
07-22-2011, 06:24 PM
So long as we count drone attacks and bombs on civilians whether they are collateral of not.
Then count the totals.

The list doesn't even count those killed in domestic killings.

ThatRaceCardGuy
07-22-2011, 06:24 PM
Thats not true. Im not Angry or a hater. And certainly no chip on my shoulder. I enjoy our banter and exchange of views.

I do have a lot of time however so you have it partially correct

Be honest......you just don't really like non white christens.lol

listopencil
07-22-2011, 06:31 PM
Ten Obvious Reasons Why
Islam is NOT a Religion of Peace



You really should try reading the Bible someday. Here, this might help you:

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/

BucEyedPea
07-22-2011, 06:31 PM
The list doesn't even count those killed in domestic killings.

As much as thousands a pop?

ForeverChiefs58
07-22-2011, 06:36 PM
As much as thousands a pop?

No, like honor killings.

ForeverChiefs58
07-22-2011, 06:44 PM
You really should try reading the Bible someday. Here, this might help you:

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/


Islamic terrorists murder more people every day than the Ku Klux Klan has in the last 50 years.

More people are killed by Islamists each year than in all 350 years of the Spanish Inquisition combined.

More civilians were killed by Muslim extremists in two hours on September 11th than in the 36 years of sectarian conflict in Northern Ireland.

19 Muslim hijackers killed more innocents in two hours on September 11th than the number of American criminals executed in the last 65 years.

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

ForeverChiefs58
07-22-2011, 06:48 PM
Irrelevant to the discussion. Whether they did it or not they are the crazies of the Islamic world.


There is a reason we call it Islamic terrorism, and it isn't
because we falsely attribute motives to the terrorists, but
because Islam is the stated purpose and aim of the terrorists.

-Daniel Greenfield



"I am one of the servants of Allah. We do our duty of fighting for the
sake of the religion of Allah. It is also our duty to send a call to
all the people of the world to enjoy this great light and to
embrace Islam and experience the happiness in Islam.
Our primary mission is nothing but the furthering of this religion."

-Osama bin Laden (1957 - 2011)

ThatRaceCardGuy
07-22-2011, 06:50 PM
You folks do realize that Christianity by far is responsible for more deaths then any other religion....right ?


"A conservative estimate puts the total number of brutal deaths in the 20 th century at more than 250 million. Of these, Muslims are responsible for less than 10 million deaths. Christians, or those coming from Christian backgrounds account for more than 200 million of these! The greatest death totals come from World War I (about 20 million, at least 90 % of which were inflicted by “Christians”) and World War II ( 90 million, at least 50% of which were inflicted by “Christians,” the majority of the rest occurring in the Far East). Given this grim history, it appears that we Europeans must all come to grips with the fact that Islamic civilization has actually been incomparably less brutal than Christian civilization. Did the Holocaust of over 6 million Jews occur out of the background of a Muslim Civilization?
In the 20th century alone


Western and/or Christian powers have been responsible for at least twenty times more deaths than have Muslim powers. In this most brutal of centuries, we created incomparably more civilian casualties than have Muslims in the whole of Islamic history."

ForeverChiefs58
07-22-2011, 06:53 PM
In 2007 Islam and Judaism's holiest holidays overlapped for 10 days.
Muslims racked up 397 dead bodies in 94 terror attacks across 10
countries during this time... while Jews worked on their 159th Nobel Prize.

listopencil
07-22-2011, 07:07 PM
Islamic terrorists murder more people every day than the Ku Klux Klan has in the last 50 years.

More people are killed by Islamists each year than in all 350 years of the Spanish Inquisition combined.

So, you are comparing every murder committed by all terrorists who claim to follow a specific faith with the numbers produced by one terrorist group operating in the US and one case of religious persecution.



More civilians were killed by Muslim extremists in two hours on September 11th than in the 36 years of sectarian conflict in Northern Ireland.

I guess it's a good thing that the IRA never grabbed a plane then, isn't it?

19 Muslim hijackers killed more innocents in two hours on September 11th than the number of American criminals executed in the last 65 years.

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

So what?

listopencil
07-22-2011, 07:08 PM
You folks do realize that Christianity by far is responsible for more deaths then any other religion....right ?



Careful. People don't take kindly to you slandering Christians like that. Why do you hate Jesus?

Thig Lyfe
07-22-2011, 07:10 PM
They arrested the Norway attacker. He's a white, blonde, Norwegian guy who shot up a left-wing (and, it should be noted, pro-Palestine) youth camp.

But yeah, probably a Muslin.

ThatRaceCardGuy
07-22-2011, 07:13 PM
In 2007 Islam and Judaism's holiest holidays overlapped for 10 days.
Muslims racked up 397 dead bodies in 94 terror attacks across 10
countries during this time... while Jews worked on their 159th Nobel Prize.

You do know that history shows christens , by a larg margin, have committed more murders, and terriost attacks then any other religious group...

ThatRaceCardGuy
07-22-2011, 07:14 PM
Careful. People don't take kindly to you slandering Christians like that. Why do you hate Jesus?

:facepalm: damn it..I forgot that

listopencil
07-22-2011, 07:18 PM
They arrested the Norway attacker. He's a white, blonde, Norwegian guy who shot up a left-wing (and, it should be noted, pro-Palestine) youth camp.

But yeah, probably a Muslin.


Update: The alleged gunman has now been identified (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2017851/Police-dismiss-initial-fears-Norwegian-terror-attacks-work-Islamist-organisations.html) as Anders Behring Breivik, but there is not yet any information available that could shed light on his motivations. What appears to be his Facebook (http://nb-no.facebook.com/people/Anders-Behring-Breivik/100002651290254) page lists his religious views as Christian and his political views as conservative. It lists a number of classical philosophical and literary works as his favorite books, cites True Blood and Stargate Universe as among his favorite television shows, and names World of Warcraft as among his favorite games. His apparent Twitter (http://twitter.com/#%21/AndersBBreivik) feed consists of a single post, dated July 17: "One person with a belief is equal to the force of 100 000 who have only interests."


http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/07/22/police-analysts-norway-bomber-unlikely-to-be-an-international-terrorist/


Oh fuck, now you guys are going to go after World Of Warcraft.

listopencil
07-22-2011, 07:19 PM
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/07/23/article-2017709-0D1F33FB00000578-704_306x512.jpg



That's an Ally if I ever saw one.

Saul Good
07-22-2011, 07:21 PM
You folks do realize that Christianity by far is responsible for more deaths then any other religion....right ?


"A conservative estimate puts the total number of brutal deaths in the 20 th century at more than 250 million. Of these, Muslims are responsible for less than 10 million deaths. Christians, or those coming from Christian backgrounds account for more than 200 million of these! The greatest death totals come from World War I (about 20 million, at least 90 % of which were inflicted by “Christians”) and World War II ( 90 million, at least 50% of which were inflicted by “Christians,” the majority of the rest occurring in the Far East). Given this grim history, it appears that we Europeans must all come to grips with the fact that Islamic civilization has actually been incomparably less brutal than Christian civilization. Did the Holocaust of over 6 million Jews occur out of the background of a Muslim Civilization?
In the 20th century alone


Western and/or Christian powers have been responsible for at least twenty times more deaths than have Muslim powers. In this most brutal of centuries, we created incomparably more civilian casualties than have Muslims in the whole of Islamic history."

Hitler was an atheist, dumbfuck. So was Stalin. So was Lenin. So was Pol Pot. So was Mao. I don't know where the fuck you come up with this shit, but keep it up. It makes your side look really smart.

listopencil
07-22-2011, 07:22 PM
LMAO You ever get tired of being a pussy?


You ever get tired of being a stupid fuck?

ForeverChiefs58
07-22-2011, 07:22 PM
You folks do realize that Christianity by far is responsible for more deaths then any other religion....right ?


"A conservative estimate puts the total number of brutal deaths in the 20 th century at more than 250 million. Of these, Muslims are responsible for less than 10 million deaths. Christians, or those coming from Christian backgrounds account for more than 200 million of these! The greatest death totals come from World War I (about 20 million, at least 90 % of which were inflicted by “Christians”) and World War II ( 90 million, at least 50% of which were inflicted by “Christians,” the majority of the rest occurring in the Far East). Given this grim history, it appears that we Europeans must all come to grips with the fact that Islamic civilization has actually been incomparably less brutal than Christian civilization. Did the Holocaust of over 6 million Jews occur out of the background of a Muslim Civilization?
In the 20th century alone


Western and/or Christian powers have been responsible for at least twenty times more deaths than have Muslim powers. In this most brutal of centuries, we created incomparably more civilian casualties than have Muslims in the whole of Islamic history."

You do know that history shows christens , by a larg margin, have committed more murders, and terriost attacks then any other religious group...

Link?

listopencil
07-22-2011, 07:25 PM
Hitler was an atheist, dumb****. So was Stalin. So was Lenin. So was Pol Pot. So was Mao. I don't know where the **** you come up with this shit, but keep it up. It makes your side look really smart.


It doesn't matter. As long as the people doing the killing had a religious preference it counts.

mlyonsd
07-22-2011, 07:27 PM
It doesn't matter. As long as the people doing the killing had a religious preference it counts.What?

ForeverChiefs58
07-22-2011, 07:28 PM
'The U.S. is in the line of fire', warns Iran's elite military commander as deadly missiles are fired in the desert


A senior Iranian military commander sent panic through the world today after making a chilling claim today that his country has the ability to produce even longer range missiles than those currently in its arsenal.
Amir Ali Hajizadeh, commander of the Guard's Aerospace Force, said that the U.S. and it's 'Zionist regime' was in the line of fire.

The remarks came as Iran is conducting 10 days of war games designed as a show of strength amid a standoff with the West over the country's controversial nuclear programme.

In the wake of the country's president Mahmoud Ahmedinejad having one of his key advisers squeeze out and fears of growing instability in the country, the exercises will cause some concern In the West.

Hajizadeh said the Guard's arsenal already includes missiles with a range of about 1,250 miles (2,000 kilometers) - putting Israel, U.S. bases in the Persian Gulf and parts of southeastern and eastern Europe within Iran's reach.

The missiles, he said, were specifically designed for Israeli and U.S. targets. Iran's known missiles of such range are the Shahab-3 and the Sajjil. Iran considers Israel and United States its top enemies.

Mr Hajizadeh stressed that Iran will not manufacture such missiles because Israel and U.S. bases in the Gulf are already within its reach.

'There is no threat from any country to us other than the U.S. and the Zionist regime,' Hajizadeh said.

'The range of our missiles has been designed on the basis of the distance to the Zionist regime and the U.S. bases in the Persian Gulf region.'

Hajizadeh said Iran 'possess the technology' but will not manufacture missiles with a range over 1,250 miles. He gave no details. 'We have no intention to produce such missiles.'

Denial: Mahmoud Ahmadinejad says the nuclear programme is 'peaceful'
In Israel, Foreign Ministry spokesman Yigal Palmor denounced Hajizadeh's remarks.
'This new Iranian bragging demonstrates once again the aggressive policies of the ayatollahs' regime,' Palmor said.

'Not that we had any doubts prior to this statement. But this renewed threat makes it obvious why Iran is the No. 1 threat to this whole region and beyond.'
Western intelligence reports say Iran is seeking to acquire the capability to produce inter-continental missiles with a range of up to 3,750 miles (6,000 kilometers), a claim Iran has denied.

Hajizadeh said some U.S. bases in Iraq and Afghanistan are as close as 75 miles (120 kilometers) from Iran's borders and can easily be hit by Iran in case of an attack.
The powerful Guard, which is in charge of Iran's missile program, kicked off the war games on Monday by unveiling an underground smart missile silos for the first time, claiming that medium- and long-range missiles stored in them are ready to launch if Iran was attacked.

The silos are widely viewed as a strategic asset for Iran in the event of a U.S. or Israeli attack on its nuclear facilities.

As part of the exercise, Iran also fired 14 missiles, including Shahab-1, Shahab-2 and Shahab-3 as well as Zelzal missile.

Iran remains locked in a standoff with the West over its nuclear program, which the U.S. and its allies suspect is aimed at developing atomic weapons. Iran rejects the charges, and says the program is only for peaceful purposes.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2009151/Iran-fires-deadly-missiles-desert-says-U-S-regime-line-fire.html#ixzz1St5rFwtr

listopencil
07-22-2011, 07:31 PM
What?


Well, that's the basis for claiming that the Muslim faith is responsible for all of those acts of terrorism and murders. The people committing those horrible acts were Muslim so that's enough to blame the faith. In turn the Christian faith can be blamed for any acts of evil that Christians perform, right?

listopencil
07-22-2011, 07:34 PM
'The U.S. is in the line of fire', warns Iran's elite military commander as deadly missiles are fired in the desert



He's a nut job but he's probably right. I would imagine only the US and Israel have the military strength and "political will" (for lack of a better term) to be a threat to Iran.

mlyonsd
07-22-2011, 07:35 PM
Well, that's the basis for claiming that the Muslim faith is responsible for all of those acts of terrorism and murders. The people committing those horrible acts were Muslim so that's enough to blame the faith. In turn the Christian faith can be blamed for any acts of evil that Christians perform, right?Okay I got you now. Carry on.

ForeverChiefs58
07-22-2011, 07:39 PM
You folks do realize that Christianity by far is responsible for more deaths then any other religion....right ?


"A conservative estimate puts the total number of brutal deaths in the 20 th century at more than 250 million. Of these, Muslims are responsible for less than 10 million deaths. Christians, or those coming from Christian backgrounds account for more than 200 million of these! The greatest death totals come from World War I (about 20 million, at least 90 % of which were inflicted by “Christians”) and World War II ( 90 million, at least 50% of which were inflicted by “Christians,” the majority of the rest occurring in the Far East). Given this grim history, it appears that we Europeans must all come to grips with the fact that Islamic civilization has actually been incomparably less brutal than Christian civilization. Did the Holocaust of over 6 million Jews occur out of the background of a Muslim Civilization?
In the 20th century alone


Western and/or Christian powers have been responsible for at least twenty times more deaths than have Muslim powers. In this most brutal of centuries, we created incomparably more civilian casualties than have Muslims in the whole of Islamic history."

Muslims helped hitler dumbass, now quit being "that guy"

ThatRaceCardGuy
07-22-2011, 07:41 PM
Muslims helped hitler dumbass, now quit being "that guy"

So what happened the other 2 thousand years?

mlyonsd
07-22-2011, 07:41 PM
Well, that's the basis for claiming that the Muslim faith is responsible for all of those acts of terrorism and murders. The people committing those horrible acts were Muslim so that's enough to blame the faith. In turn the Christian faith can be blamed for any acts of evil that Christians perform, right?BTW, if Muslims truly believed in their religoin they themselves would stop their own side from committing terrorist acts. Eliminating AQ type fanatics will take Muslims snuffing them out, not Christians.

I'm neither but wouldn't mind Muslims standing up when they get a minute.

mlyonsd
07-22-2011, 07:42 PM
So what happened the other 2 thousand years?Kotter needs to come in and defend himself because as of right now I'd guess you were him.

ThatRaceCardGuy
07-22-2011, 07:43 PM
Hitler was an atheist, dumb****. So was Stalin. So was Lenin. So was Pol Pot. So was Mao. I don't know where the **** you come up with this shit, but keep it up. It makes your side look really smart.

Christians murdered more people then any other religion through out history..fact.

ThatRaceCardGuy
07-22-2011, 07:44 PM
Kotter needs to come in and defend himself because as of right now I'd guess you were him.

I have no clue who that is...but I do know facts. Facts are that through out the history of Muslims and christens, christens have been the more ruthless religious group.

Saul Good
07-22-2011, 07:44 PM
Well, that's the basis for claiming that the Muslim faith is responsible for all of those acts of terrorism and murders. The people committing those horrible acts were Muslim so that's enough to blame the faith. In turn the Christian faith can be blamed for any acts of evil that Christians perform, right?

What the fuck are you talking about? Do you know what an atheist is? I'll give you a hint. It's not a Christian.

That's to say nothing of the fact that this Muslims are killing in the name of Islam. That is different than a Christian killing a dude after walking in on him plowing his wife.

Double Fail

Saul Good
07-22-2011, 07:45 PM
I have no clue who that is...but I do know facts. Facts are that through out the history of Muslims and christens, christens have been the more ruthless religious group.

Weird how you claim to know everything from your "lurking", but you have no clue who Kotter is.

ForeverChiefs58
07-22-2011, 07:46 PM
Well, that's the basis for claiming that the Muslim faith is responsible for all of those acts of terrorism and murders. The people committing those horrible acts were Muslim so that's enough to blame the faith. In turn the Christian faith can be blamed for any acts of evil that Christians perform, right?

I would blame their faith when they say they kill for that religion and it happens 10,000 different times in 10 years while they yell "Allahu Akbar!"


Never mind, really if you don't get it by now you never will.

Brock
07-22-2011, 07:48 PM
Weird how you claim to know everything from your "lurking", but you have no clue who Kotter is.

Pretty strange indeed.

listopencil
07-22-2011, 07:49 PM
Muslims helped hitler dumbass, now quit being "that guy"

My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before in the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice.... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.... When I go out in the morning and see these men standing in their queues and look into their pinched faces, then I believe I would be no Christian, but a very devil if I felt no pity for them, if I did not, as did our Lord two thousand years ago, turn against those by whom to-day this poor people is plundered and exploited.

-Adolf Hitler, in his speech in Munich on 12 April 1922

[Note, "brood of vipers" appears in Matt. 3:7 & 12:34. John 2:15 depicts Jesus driving out the money changers (adders) from the temple. The word "adders" also appears in Psalms 140:3]





http://nobeliefs.com/speeches.htm




The 25 point Programme of the NSDAP


24. We demand freedom for all religious denominations in the State, provided they do not threaten its existence not offend the moral feelings of the German race.

The Party, as such, stands for positive Christianity, but does not commit itself to any particular denomination. It combats the Jewish-materialistic spirit within and without us, and is convinced that our nation can achieve permanent health only from within on the basis of the principle: The common interest before self-interest.



http://www.schoolshistory.org.uk/ASLevel_History/25pointnsdapprogramme.htm




Proper noun

NSDAP


Abbreviation of National Sozialistische Deutsche Arbeiter Partei (http://en.wiktionary.org/w/index.php?title=National_Sozialistische_Deutsche_Arbeiter_Partei&action=edit&redlink=1). (National Socialist German Workers Party), the full name of the Nazi (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Nazi) party.

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/NSDAP

listopencil
07-22-2011, 07:49 PM
I would blame their faith when they say they kill for that religion and it happens 10,000 different times in 10 years while they yell "Allahu Akbar!"


Never mind, really if you don't get it by now you never will.

No, I get what you are saying. I disagree with you.

HonestChieffan
07-22-2011, 07:52 PM
Weird how you claim to know everything from your "lurking", but you have no clue who Kotter is.

Give him credit. He makes more sense than Kotter does.

Jaric
07-22-2011, 07:55 PM
Incorrect. God not only revealed himself to the prophets of the OT, he had close relationships with them, creating extreme men of faith. Jesus came for the Jew and the Gentile....in essence, all men. Allah would be lowering himself to have a personal relationship.

Muslims don't have a personal God, rather an impersonal diety. That eliminates any absolute moral right or wrong. Man is what he is because that is his nature and it has never changed...he errs because he is ignorant (see frankies eleventy billion remarks)...this leads leads to a fatalistic acceptance of life's circumstances, and and an attitude of moral relativism.

The Bible teaches that man has a sin nature,...and is held accountable through moral standards.
I'm sorry what?

Saul Good
07-22-2011, 07:56 PM
My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before in the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice.... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.... When I go out in the morning and see these men standing in their queues and look into their pinched faces, then I believe I would be no Christian, but a very devil if I felt no pity for them, if I did not, as did our Lord two thousand years ago, turn against those by whom to-day this poor people is plundered and exploited.

-Adolf Hitler, in his speech in Munich on 12 April 1922

[Note, "brood of vipers" appears in Matt. 3:7 & 12:34. John 2:15 depicts Jesus driving out the money changers (adders) from the temple. The word "adders" also appears in Psalms 140:3]





http://nobeliefs.com/speeches.htm




The 25 point Programme of the NSDAP


24. We demand freedom for all religious denominations in the State, provided they do not threaten its existence not offend the moral feelings of the German race.

The Party, as such, stands for positive Christianity, but does not commit itself to any particular denomination. It combats the Jewish-materialistic spirit within and without us, and is convinced that our nation can achieve permanent health only from within on the basis of the principle: The common interest before self-interest.



http://www.schoolshistory.org.uk/ASLevel_History/25pointnsdapprogramme.htm




Proper noun

NSDAP


Abbreviation of National Sozialistische Deutsche Arbeiter Partei (http://en.wiktionary.org/w/index.php?title=National_Sozialistische_Deutsche_Arbeiter_Partei&action=edit&redlink=1). (National Socialist German Workers Party), the full name of the Nazi (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Nazi) party.

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/NSDAP

Hitler cynically used religion to climb to power. He, himself, was an atheist.

stevieray
07-22-2011, 07:58 PM
Not relevant to the discussion. Those prophets delivered a message because God did not reveal himself to anyone else, denying the general public a personal relationship with Him. As I said.


Incorrect. The Muslims have a sacred text and their own prophets. If the prophets of the Bible had allowed the masses to form a personal relationship with God, then why would that not be true of Islam? Furthermore, a moral code is not dependent upon a religious belief.


Which is a great way of making you feel guilty without having done anything. Original Sin is hogwash.
They are examples of God being available to man.

"as you said"....is false. 'I will walk among you and be your God, and you shall be My people' Lev.26.12

Incorrect? first you were saying the Biblical prophets are irrelevant, that God denied the general public His availablitiy, therefore, in being like Allah, are/were the same. Then you do a 180 and you now give credulence to the Biblical prophets as evidence that the islamic prophets made Allah available....???? I don' think it works that way.

religious belief isn't the point, it's that sin, according to the Bible....is based on morals, and sense of right and wrong.

from sacred text to hogwash..seems you are proving a point you disputed earlier.

it's your opinion, and doesn't refute my point. if anything it reinforces the differences, not the similarities.

listopencil
07-22-2011, 07:58 PM
Hitler cynically used religion to climb to power. He, himself, was an atheist.

...so you have a leader using religion to motivate his follower to commit evil. Are you going to blame the leader, his followers, or the faith?

listopencil
07-22-2011, 08:03 PM
They are examples of God being available to man.

"as you said"....is false. 'I will walk among you and be your God, and you shall be My people' Lev.26.12

Incorrect? first you were saying the Biblical prophets are irrelevant, that God denied the general public His availablitiy, therefore, in being like Allah, are/were the same. Then you do a 180 and you now give credulence to the Biblical prophets as evidence that the islamic prophets made Allah available....???? I don' think it works that way.

religious belief isn't the point, it's that sin, according to the Bible....is based on morals, and sense of right and wrong.

from sacred text to hogwash..seems you are proving a point you disputed earlier.

it's your opinion, and doesn't refute my point. if anything it reinforces the differences, not the similarities.


First off:

If the prophets of the Bible had allowed the masses to form a personal relationship with God, then why would that not be true of Islam? Furthermore, a moral code is not dependent upon a religious belief.


As in, if what you are saying is true about the Christian prophets than it is also true of the Muslim prophets.

Secondly: No, religion isn't necessary for morality.

Third: It's not moral to blame someone's descendant for a their sin.

ForeverChiefs58
07-22-2011, 08:05 PM
My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before in the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice.... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.... When I go out in the morning and see these men standing in their queues and look into their pinched faces, then I believe I would be no Christian, but a very devil if I felt no pity for them, if I did not, as did our Lord two thousand years ago, turn against those by whom to-day this poor people is plundered and exploited.

-Adolf Hitler, in his speech in Munich on 12 April 1922

[Note, "brood of vipers" appears in Matt. 3:7 & 12:34. John 2:15 depicts Jesus driving out the money changers (adders) from the temple. The word "adders" also appears in Psalms 140:3]





http://nobeliefs.com/speeches.htm




The 25 point Programme of the NSDAP


24. We demand freedom for all religious denominations in the State, provided they do not threaten its existence not offend the moral feelings of the German race.

The Party, as such, stands for positive Christianity, but does not commit itself to any particular denomination. It combats the Jewish-materialistic spirit within and without us, and is convinced that our nation can achieve permanent health only from within on the basis of the principle: The common interest before self-interest.



http://www.schoolshistory.org.uk/ASLevel_History/25pointnsdapprogramme.htm




Proper noun

NSDAP


Abbreviation of National Sozialistische Deutsche Arbeiter Partei (http://en.wiktionary.org/w/index.php?title=National_Sozialistische_Deutsche_Arbeiter_Partei&action=edit&redlink=1). (National Socialist German Workers Party), the full name of the Nazi (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Nazi) party.

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/NSDAP


Hitler's references to providence and God and the ritualistic pageantry of Nazism were more than likely pagan than Christian. Earthly symbols of German valour and Teutonic strength were to be worshipped - not the forgiving, compassionate representative of an "Eastern Mediterranean servant ethic imposed on credulous ancient Germans by force and subterfuge" (the phrase is Burleigh's own, in Michael Burleigh, The Third Reich: a New History, Pan, 2001). A Hitler Youth marching song (Grunberger, A Social History) illustrates it:


We follow not Christ, but Horst Wessel,

Away with incense and Holy Water,

The Church can go hang for all we care,

The Swastika brings salvation on Earth.

Saul Good
07-22-2011, 08:06 PM
...so you have a leader using religion to motivate his follower to commit evil. Are you going to blame the leader, his followers, or the faith?

I'm blaming the leader in this case. The impetus for the killings was much more racial than religious.

ForeverChiefs58
07-22-2011, 08:10 PM
"While raised by a skeptic father and Catholic mother, after childhood, he ceased to participate in the Sacraments completely. He sometimes made public statements which seemed to affirm religion (which suited his political purposes) and prior to 1940 had promoted a "positive Christianity", purged of Judaism and instilled with Nazi philosophy, but in private was hostile to Christianity and had a plan to destroy it after the war. "

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler's_religious_views

listopencil
07-22-2011, 08:12 PM
Hitler's references to providence and God and the ritualistic pageantry of Nazism were more than likely pagan than Christian. Earthly symbols of German valour and Teutonic strength were to be worshipped - not the forgiving, compassionate representative of an "Eastern Mediterranean servant ethic imposed on credulous ancient Germans by force and subterfuge" (the phrase is Burleigh's own, in Michael Burleigh, The Third Reich: a New History, Pan, 2001). A Hitler Youth marching song (Grunberger, A Social History) illustrates it:


We follow not Christ, but Horst Wessel,

Away with incense and Holy Water,

The Church can go hang for all we care,

The Swastika brings salvation on Earth.


"While raised by a skeptic father and Catholic mother, after childhood, he ceased to participate in the Sacraments completely. He sometimes made public statements which seemed to affirm religion (which suited his political purposes) and prior to 1940 had promoted a "positive Christianity", purged of Judaism and instilled with Nazi philosophy, but in private was hostile to Christianity and had a plan to destroy it after the war. "

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler's_religious_views (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler%27s_religious_views)


And yet there he is, on record, espousing Christianity. If you clicked on that link I provided you will see that this was just one example among many.

listopencil
07-22-2011, 08:14 PM
I'm blaming the leader in this case. The impetus for the killings was much more racial than religious.

I blame the leader and the followers. I believe it was yet another case of religious messages being twisted to fit political ends.

listopencil
07-22-2011, 08:17 PM
Here's another quote, from 1945. This doesn't sound anything like a guy who planned to destroy Christianity:

Providence shows no mercy to weak nations, but recognizes the right of existence-only of sound and strong nations....
This Jewish bolshevist annihilation of nations and its western European and American procurers can be met only in one way: by using every ounce of strength with the extreme fanaticism and stubborn steadfastness that merciful God gives to men in hard times for the defense of their own lives....


We have suffered so much that it only steels us to fanatical resolve to hate Our enemies a thousand times more and to regard them for what they are destroyers of an eternal culture and annihilators of humanity. Out of this bate a holy will is born to oppose these destroyers of our existence with all the strength that God has given us and to crush them in the end. During its 2,000-year history our people has survived so many terrible times that we have no doubt that we will also master our present plight.


-Adolf Hitler, in a recorded radio address, 24 Feb. 1945

http://nobeliefs.com/speeches.htm

Saul Good
07-22-2011, 08:18 PM
I blame the leader and the followers. I believe it was yet another case of religious messages being twisted to fit political ends.


1930s and 1940s Germany: Secular State


He wasn't a religious leader. He gave it lip service, but it's not like he was Jerry Falwell. Try to revise history all you want in order to morally equivocate, but it's not happening. The people who opposed and defeated Hitler were Christians. Where is this vast Muslim majority who opposes extremism?

Saul Good
07-22-2011, 08:19 PM
Here's another quote, from 1945. This doesn't sound anything like a guy who planned to destroy Christianity:

Providence shows no mercy to weak nations, but recognizes the right of existence-only of sound and strong nations....
This Jewish bolshevist annihilation of nations and its western European and American procurers can be met only in one way: by using every ounce of strength with the extreme fanaticism and stubborn steadfastness that merciful God gives to men in hard times for the defense of their own lives....


We have suffered so much that it only steels us to fanatical resolve to hate Our enemies a thousand times more and to regard them for what they are destroyers of an eternal culture and annihilators of humanity. Out of this bate a holy will is born to oppose these destroyers of our existence with all the strength that God has given us and to crush them in the end. During its 2,000-year history our people has survived so many terrible times that we have no doubt that we will also master our present plight.


-Adolf Hitler, in a recorded radio address, 24 Feb. 1945

http://nobeliefs.com/speeches.htm

Just look at all those references to Jesus.

listopencil
07-22-2011, 08:25 PM
1930s and 1940s Germany: Secular State


He wasn't a religious leader. He gave it lip service, but it's not like he was Jerry Falwell. Try to revise history all you want in order to morally equivocate, but it's not happening. The people who opposed and defeated Hitler were Christians. Where is this vast Muslim majority who opposes extremism?


Hah, revise history? Not at all. I pointed out examples that Hitler did, in fact, espouse Christianity and used the terminology to motivate his followers. Since that appears to be enough to blame Islam for the actions of terrorists then Christianity should be blamed for the horrors of WW2. Right? I know it's hard for some people to wrap their heads around that.

I already posted a link to expressions of condemnation of extremism made by Muslims. It's in this thread. It's been ignored.

listopencil
07-22-2011, 08:27 PM
Just look at all those references to Jesus.

So you didn't read the earlier quote or any of the ones available on that link?

Saul Good
07-22-2011, 08:29 PM
I already posted a link to expressions of condemnation of extremism made by Muslims. It's in this thread. It's been ignored.

You'll have to forgive us for ignoring the lip-service being paid by a few Muslims. It's hard to focus while Muslim extremists are blowing up buildings and mowing down innocents yet again.

Saul Good
07-22-2011, 08:30 PM
So you didn't read the earlier quote or any of the ones available on that link?

I read a quote from 1922 when he was rising to power and another from 1945 where he didn't reference Christianity.

listopencil
07-22-2011, 08:32 PM
I read a quote from 1922 when he was rising to power and another from 1945 where he didn't reference Christianity.


And did either of those quotes leave you with the impression that Hitler planned to destroy Christianity?

listopencil
07-22-2011, 08:33 PM
You'll have to forgive us for ignoring the lip-service being paid by a few Muslims. It's hard to focus while Muslim extremists are blowing up buildings and mowing down innocents yet again.


More than a few, and ignorance is only forgivable if you take the time to educate yourself when you are corrected:

http://www.muhajabah.com/otherscondemn.php

stevieray
07-22-2011, 08:35 PM
As in, if what you are saying is true about the Christian prophets than it is also true of the Muslim prophets.


I never said "they" allowed it...you did. I said God made himself available to them and they had personal relationships with Him...even then why would it have to also be true? Muslims can't expereince a personal relationship with Allah..can you show otherwise?

listopencil
07-22-2011, 08:37 PM
I never said "they" allowed it...you did. I said God made himself available to them and they had personal relationships with Him...even then why would it have to also be true? Muslims can't expereince a personal relationship with Allah..can you show otherwise?

"They" as in his prophets, not his followers in general.

Saul Good
07-22-2011, 08:47 PM
Not sure what you're trying to achieve, but I'll bet Muslim terrorists kill more people tomorrow in the name of Islam, and I'll bet that Christians won't. Care to take that bet?

listopencil
07-22-2011, 08:48 PM
Not sure what you're trying to achieve, but I'll bet Muslim terrorists kill more people tomorrow in the name of Islam, and I'll bet that Christians won't. Care to take that bet?

What was today's score again? 17-0? You're down one day already.

stevieray
07-22-2011, 08:49 PM
"They" as in his prophets, not his followers in general.

you're a smart guy listo, sadly, you're down to one word semantics.


no hard feelings.

Saul Good
07-22-2011, 08:51 PM
What was today's score again? 17-0? You're down one day already.

Really? Show me a killing in the name of Christianity that happened today.

listopencil
07-22-2011, 08:54 PM
you're a smart guy listo, sadly, you're down to one word semantics.


no hard feelings.

Not semantics, I'm actually trying to communicate with you but we don't seem to have very many common points of reference. I'll restate it:

If God making direct personal contact with his prophets, but not with the general population of his followers, counts as a personal relationship, then why does a similar situation for Muslims not count?

ThatRaceCardGuy
07-22-2011, 08:54 PM
More people have killed in the name of Christianity then Islam and that's a fact..by a large margin. You can spin it all you want, but WE as Christians have a much longer, more violent history then Islam does.

listopencil
07-22-2011, 08:55 PM
Really? Show me a killing in the name of Christianity that happened today.


Well, using the concept as expressed in this thread, all it takes is for a follower of Christianity to kill someone. It's bullshit but I didn't set those goalposts.

ThatRaceCardGuy
07-22-2011, 08:56 PM
specially after the terrorist strikes of 9/11, Islam has often been accused of being intrinsically violent. Many point to the Koran and other Islamic scriptures and texts as proof that violence and intolerance vis-à-vis non-Muslims is inherent to Islam. In response, a number of apologetics have been offered. The fundamental premise of almost all of these is that Islam's purported violence—as found in Islamic scriptures and history—is no different than the violence committed by other religious groups throughout history and as recorded in their scriptures, such as Jews and Christians. The argument, in short, is that it is not Islam per se but rather human nature that is prone to violence.

So whenever the argument is made that the Koran as well as the historical words and deeds of Islam's prophet Muhammad and his companions evince violence and intolerance, the counter-argument is immediately made: What about the historical atrocities committed by the Hebrews in years gone by and as recorded in their scriptures (AKA, the Old Testament)? What about the brutal cycle of violence Christians have committed in the name of their faith against both fellow Christians and non-Christians?

Several examples are then offered from the Bible as well as Judeo-Christian history. Two examples especially—one biblical, the other historic—are often cited as paradigmatic of the religious violence inherent to both Judaism and Christianity and usually put an end to the debate of whether Islam is unique in regards to its teachings and violence.

The first is the military conquest of the land of Canaan by the Hebrews (c. 1200 BC), which has increasingly come to be characterized as a "genocide." Yahweh told Moses:

But of the cities of these peoples which Yahweh your God gives you as an inheritance, you shall let nothing that breathes remain alive, but you shall utterly destroy them—the Hittite, Amorite, Canaanite, Perizzite, Hivite, and Jebusite—just as Yahweh your God has commanded you, lest they teach you to do according to all their abominations which they have done for their gods, and you sin against Yahweh your God (Deuteronomy 20: 16-18).

So Joshua [Moses' successor] conquered all the land: the mountain country and the South and the lowland and the wilderness slopes, and all their kings; he left none remaining, but utterly destroyed all that breathed, as Yahweh God of Israel had commanded (Joshua 10:40).

The second example revolves around the Crusader wars waged by Medieval European Christians. To be sure, the Crusades were a "counter-attack" on Islam—not an unprovoked assault as is often depicted by revisionist history. A united Christendom sought to annex the Holy Land of Jerusalem, which, prior to its conquest by Islam in the 7th century, was an integral part of Christendom for nearly 400 years.

Moreover, Muslim invasions and atrocities against Christians were on the rise in the decades before the Crusades were launched in 1096. For example, in 1071, the Seljuk Turks had crushed the Byzantines in the pivotal battle of Manzikert and in effect annexed a major chunk of Byzantine Anatolia (opening the way for the eventual capture of Constantinople centuries later). A few decades earlier, the Fatimid caliph al-Hakim desecrated and destroyed a number of important churches—such as the Church of St. Mark in Egypt and the Church of the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem—and decreed several even more oppressive than usual decrees against Christians and Jews. It is in this backdrop that Pope Urban called for the Crusades:

From the confines of Jerusalem and the city of Constantinople a horrible tale has gone forth and very frequently has been brought to our ears, namely, that a race from the kingdom of the Persians [i.e., Muslim Turks]…has invaded the lands of those Christians and has depopulated them by the sword, pillage and fire; it has led away a part of the captives into its own country, and a part it has destroyed by cruel tortures; it has either entirely destroyed the churches of God or appropriated them for the rites of its own religion (from the chronicles of Robert the Monk).

Nonetheless, history attests that these Crusades were violent and bloody. After breaching the walls of Jerusalem in 1099, the Crusaders slaughtered almost every single inhabitant of the Holy City. According to the Medieval chronicle, the Gesta Danorum "the slaughter was so great that our men waded in blood up to their ankles." Moreover, there is the 1204 sack of Constantinople, wherein Crusader slew Christian.

In light of the above—one a prime example of "Hebraic" violence from the Bible, the other from Christian history—why should Islam be the one religion always characterized as intrinsically violent, simply because its holy book and its history also contain violence? Why should non-Muslims always point to the Koran and ancient history as evidence of Islam's violence while never looking to their own scriptures and history?

While such questions are popular, they reveal a great deal of confusion between history and theology, between the temporal actions of men and what are understood to be the immutable words of God. The fundamental error being that Judeo-Christian history—which is violent—is being conflated with Islamic theology—which commands violence. Of course all religions have had their fair share of violence and intolerance towards the "other." Whether this violence is ordained by God or whether warlike man merely wished it thus is the all-important question.

Old Testament violence is an interesting case in point. Yahweh clearly ordered the Hebrews to annihilate the Canaanites and surrounding peoples. Such violence is therefore an expression of God's will, for good or ill. Regardless, all the historic violence committed by the Hebrews and recorded in the Old Testament is just that—history. It happened; God commanded it. But it revolved around a specific time and place and was directed against a specific people. At no time did such violence go on to become standardized or codified into Jewish law (i.e., the Halakha).

This is where Islamic violence is unique. Though similar to the violence of the Old Testament—commanded by God and manifested in history—certain aspects of Islamic violence have become standardized in Islamic law (i.e., Sharia) and apply at all times. Thus while the violence found in the Koran is in fact historical, its ultimate significance is theological, or, more specifically, doctrinal. Consider the following Koranic verses, better known as the "sword-verses":

Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the pagans wherever you find them—take them [captive], besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due [i.e. submit to Islam], then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful (K 9:5).

Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger [i.e. do not adhere to Islamic law], nor acknowledge the religion of Truth [i.e. Islam], from the people of the book [i.e. Jews and Christians], until they pay tribute with willing submission, and feel themselves utterly subdued (K 9:29).

As with Old Testament verses where Yahweh commanded the Hebrews to attack and slay their neighbors, the sword-verses also have a historical context. Allah first issued these commandments after the Muslims under Muhammad's leadership had grown sufficiently strong enough to invade their Christian and pagan neighbors. But unlike the bellicose verses and anecdotes of the Old Testament, the sword-verses became fundamental to Islam's subsequent relationship to both the "people of the book" (Christians and Jews) and the "pagans" (Hindus, Buddhists, animists, etc). For instance, based on 9:5, Islamic law mandates that pagans and polytheists must either convert to Islam or be killed, while 9:29 is the primary source of Islam's well-known discriminatory practices against Christians and Jews.

In fact, based on the sword-verses (as well as countless other Koranic verses and oral traditions attributed to Muhammad), Islam's scholars, sheikhs, muftis, imams, and qadis throughout the ages have all reached the consensus—binding on the entire Muslim community—that Islam is to be at perpetual war with the non-Muslim world until the former subsumes the latter. (It is widely held by Muslim scholars that since the sword-verses are among the final revelations on the topic of Islam's relationship to non-Muslims, that they alone have abrogated some 200 of the Koran's earlier and more tolerant verses, such as "there is no coercion in religion" 2:256.) Famous Muslim scholar Ibn Khaldun, who is revered in the West for his "progressive" insights, also puts to rest the notion that jihad is "defensive" warfare:

In the Muslim community, the holy war [jihad] is a religious duty, because of the universalism of the Muslim mission and the obligation to convert everybody to Islam either by persuasion or by force...The other religious groups did not have a universal mission, and the holy war was not a religious duty for them, save only for purposes of defense... They are merely required to establish their religion among their own people. That is why the Israeilites after Moses and Joshua remained unconcerned with royal authority [e.g. a "caliphate"]. Their only concern was to establish their religion [not spread it to the nations]… But Islam is under obligation to gain power over other nations (The Muqudimmah, vol. 1 pg. 473).

Perhaps what is most unique about the sword-verses is the fact that when juxtaposed to their Old Testament counterparts, they are especially distinct for using language that transcends time and space, inciting believers to attack and slay non-believers today no less than yesterday. Yahweh commanded the Hebrews to kill Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites, and Jebusites—all specific peoples rooted to a specific time and place. At no time did Yahweh give an open-ended command for the Hebrews, and by extension their descendants the Jews, to fight and kill gentiles. On the other hand, though Islam's original enemies were, like Judaism's, historical (e.g., Christian Byzantines and pagan Persians), the Koran rarely singles them out by their proper names. Instead, Muslims were (and are) commanded to fight the people of the book—"until they pay tribute with willing submission and feel themselves utterly subdued" (Koran 9:29) and to "slay the pagans wherever you find them" (Koran 9:5).

The two conjunctions "until" (hata) and "wherever" (haythu) demonstrate the perpetual and ubiquitous nature of these commandments: there are still "people of the book" who have yet to be "utterly subdued" (especially in the Americas, Europe, and Israel) and "pagans" to be slain "wherever" one looks (especially Asia and sub-Saharan Africa). In fact, the salient feature of almost all of the violent commandments in Islamic scriptures is their open-ended and generic nature: "Fight them [non-Muslims] until there is no more chaos and all religion belongs to Allah" (Koran 8:39). Also, in a well-attested tradition that appears in the most authentic hadith collections, Muhammad proclaims:

I have been commanded to wage war against mankind until they testify that there is no god but Allah and that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah; and that they establish prostration prayer, and pay the alms-tax [i.e., convert to Islam]. If they do so, their blood and property are protected [Sahih Muslim C9B1N31; also in Sahih Bukhari B2N24].

Aside from the divine words of the Koran, Muhammad's pattern of behavior—his "Sunna" or "example"—is an extremely important source of legislation in Islam. Muslims are exhorted to emulate Muhammad in all walks of life: "You have indeed in the Messenger of Allah a beautiful pattern [of conduct]" (Koran 33:21). And Muhammad's pattern of conduct vis-à-vis non-Muslims is quite explicit. Sarcastically arguing against the concept of "moderate" Islam, terrorist Osama bin Laden, who enjoys half the Arab-Islamic world's support per an al-Jazeera poll, portrays the prophet's Sunna thus:

"Moderation" is demonstrated by our prophet who did not remain more than three months in Medina without raiding or sending a raiding party into the lands of the infidels to beat down their strongholds and seize their possessions, their lives, and their women" (from The Al-Qaeda Reader, page 56).

In fact, based on both the Koran and Muhammad's Sunna, pillaging and plundering infidels, enslaving their children, and placing their women in concubinage is well founded (e.g. 4:24, 4:92, 8:69, 24:33, 33:50, etc.). And the concept of "Sunna"—which is what 90% of the billion plus Muslims, the "Sunnis," are named after—essentially asserts that anything performed or approved by Muhammad and his early companions is applicable for Muslims today no less than yesterday. This does not mean that Muslims in mass are wild hedonists who live only to plunder and rape. But it does mean that those particular persons who are naturally inclined to such activities, and who also happen to be Muslim, can—and do—quite easily justify their actions by referring to the "Sunna of the Prophet"—the way al-Qaeda, for example, justifies its attacks on 9/11 where innocents, including women and children, were killed: Muhammad authorized his followers to use catapults during their siege of the town of Taif in 630 A.D., though he was aware that women and children were sheltered there. Also, when asked if it was permissible to launch night raids or set fire to the fortifications of the infidels if women and children were among them, the prophet is said to have responded, "They are from among them" (Sahih Muslim B19N4321).

While law-centric and legalistic, Judaism has no such equivalent to the Sunna; the words and deeds of the patriarchs, though recorded in the Old Testament, never went on to be part of Jewish law. Neither Abraham's "white-lies," nor Jacob's perfidy, nor Moses' short-fuse, nor David's adultery, nor Solomon's philandering ever went on to instruct Jews or Christians. They were merely understood to be historical actions perpetrated by fallible men who were often punished by God for their less than ideal behavior.

As for Christianity, much of the Old Testament law was abrogated by Jesus. "Eye for an eye" gave way to "turn the other cheek." Totally loving God and one's neighbor became supreme law (Matt 22:38-40). Furthermore, Jesus' "Sunna"—as in "What would Jesus do?"—is characterized by altruism. The New Testament contains absolutely no exhortations to violence. Still, there are some who strive to portray Jesus as having a similar militant ethos as Muhammad by quoting the verse where Jesus—who "spoke to the multitudes in parables and without a parable spoke not" (Matt 13:34)—said, "I come not to bring peace but a sword" (Matt 10:34). But based on the context of this statement, it is clear that Jesus was not commanding violence against non-Christians, but was predicting that strife will often exist between Christian converts and their environment—a prediction that was only too true as early Christians, far from taking up the sword, passively perished by the sword in martyrdom (as they still do today in many Muslim nations). At any rate, how can one honestly compare this one New Testament verse that metaphorically mentions the word "sword" to the literally hundreds of Koranic injunctions and statements by Muhammad that clearly command Muslims to take up a very real sword against non-Muslims?

And it is from here that one can best appreciate the Crusades. However one interprets these wars—as offensive or defensive, just or unjust—it is evident that they were not based on the "Sunna" of Jesus, who exhorted his followers to "love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you" (Matt 5:44).

In fact, far from suggesting anything intrinsic to Christianity, the Crusades ironically help better explain Islam. For what the Crusades demonstrated once and for all is that, irrespective of religious teachings—indeed, in the case of these so-called "Christian" Crusades, despite them—man is in fact predisposed to violence and intolerance. But this begs the question: If this is how Christians behaved—who are commanded to love, bless, and do good to their enemies who hate, curse, and persecute them—how much more can be expected of Muslims who, while sharing the same violent tendencies, are further validated by the Deity's command to attack, kill, and plunder non-believers?

Related Topics: History, Islam | Raymond Ibrahim receive the latest by email: subscribe to the free mef mailing list This text may be reposted or forwarded so long as it is presented as an integral whole with complete information provided about its author, date, place of publication, and original URL.

Saul Good
07-22-2011, 08:58 PM
Well, using the concept as expressed in this thread, all it takes is for a follower of Christianity to kill someone. It's bullshit but I didn't set those goalposts.

How about the goalposts are set at somebody doing it expressly in the name of their religion? Bonus points if a religious group takes credit for it.

ThatRaceCardGuy
07-22-2011, 09:00 PM
How about the goalposts are set at somebody doing it expressly in the name of their religion? Bonus points if a religious group takes credit for it.


Great Crusades....Christianity up by about a million points.

listopencil
07-22-2011, 09:05 PM
How about the goalposts are set at somebody doing it expressly in the name of their religion? Bonus points if a religious group takes credit for it.

And what will that prove exactly?

Saul Good
07-22-2011, 09:08 PM
And what will that prove exactly?

Nothing. It's just a bet.

listopencil
07-22-2011, 09:16 PM
Nothing. It's just a bet.

LMAO

I would imagine you'll hear about more people killing in the name of a Muslim God than a Christian one. The terrorist organizations in the ME jump to claim responsibility for killings and slip in some religious mumbo jumbo to try to validate their actions.

Saul Good
07-22-2011, 09:35 PM
LMAO

I would imagine you'll hear about more people killing in the name of a Muslim God than a Christian one.

I heard a lot more about the Packers winning the Super Bowl than the Broncos winning the Super Bowl this year, too.

listopencil
07-22-2011, 09:49 PM
I heard a lot more about the Packers winning the Super Bowl than the Broncos winning the Super Bowl this year, too.


So if Tebow leads the Broncos to a win in Arrowhead this year does that count as a Christian act of terrorism to a Chiefs fan?

go bowe
07-22-2011, 10:00 PM
So if Tebow leads the Broncos to a win in Arrowhead this year does that count as a Christian act of terrorism to a Chiefs fan?

eh, everybody knows tebow is really a closet muslim bent on jihad...

Saul Good
07-22-2011, 10:03 PM
So if Tebow leads the Broncos to a win in Arrowhead this year does that count as a Christian act of terrorism to a Chiefs fan?

Have you considered...

<iframe width="560" height="349" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/TWHOIowtzXA" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

ThatRaceCardGuy
07-22-2011, 10:19 PM
So if Tebow leads the Broncos to a win in Arrowhead this year does that count as a Christian act of terrorism to a Chiefs fan?

Then its time to burn Colorado to the ground...in the name of Chiefology

ForeverChiefs58
07-22-2011, 10:50 PM
Hah, revise history? Not at all. I pointed out examples that Hitler did, in fact, espouse Christianity and used the terminology to motivate his followers. Since that appears to be enough to blame Islam for the actions of terrorists then Christianity should be blamed for the horrors of WW2. Right? I know it's hard for some people to wrap their heads around that.

I already posted a link to expressions of condemnation of extremism made by Muslims. It's in this thread. It's been ignored.


Yeah, I am sure he motivated his followers to slaughter millions of jews by preaching to them about The Almighty Savior Jesus Christ the King of Jews. Does that make sense to you?

KILLER_CLOWN
07-22-2011, 10:57 PM
Yeah, I am sure he motivated his followers to slaughter millions of jews by preaching to them about The Almighty Savior Jesus Christ the King of Jews. Does that make sense to you?

Yes if you preach replacement theology, or use corrupt religion as a tool to get what you want.

listopencil
07-22-2011, 10:59 PM
Yeah, I am sure he motivated his followers to slaughter millions of jews by preaching to them about The Almighty Savior Jesus Christ the King of Jews. Does that make sense to you?

"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter."


Sounds like he trying to make German people believe that war was the Christian solution to their poverty.

ForeverChiefs58
07-22-2011, 11:14 PM
What was today's score again? 17-0? You're down one day already.

:spock::spock:


These are just a few from the religion of peace for today

2011.07.22 (Makhachkala, Dagestan) - Islamic radicals murder two "non-believers" in a shooting attack.

2011.07.20 (Kandahar, Afghanistan) - Mujahideen attack a government building, killing at least three guards.

2011.07.20 (Aden, Yemen) - A British businessman is killed in a targeted car bombing.

2011.07.19 (Landi Kotal, Pakistan) - Islamic militants lob mortars into a town, injuring nine children playing cricket.

2011.07.19 (Charkhel, Pakistan) - Religious radicals kill two hostages, burning a student and shooting the other civilian to death.

2011.07.19 (Pattani, Thailand) - Islamists bomb a group of men trying to protect teachers, killing two of the guards.


Weekly Jihad Report
Jul 09 - Jul. 15 Jihad Attacks: 35

Allah Akbars: 5

Dead Bodies: 101

Critically Injured: 264


June, 2011 Jihad Attacks: 184

Dead Bodies: 930

Critically Injured: 1527

LiveSteam
07-22-2011, 11:21 PM
Really? Show me a killing in the name of Christianity that happened today.

Give me 4 ICBMs & I will wipe Iran off the map in the name of Christianity.
I will even strap a few bibles to them.

ForeverChiefs58
07-22-2011, 11:34 PM
"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter."


Sounds like he trying to make German people believe that war was the Christian solution to their poverty.




Do you really believe Hitler, neo nazis or the KKK have recognition of Jesus Christ and Christianity?

Do people pick on you a lot in real life?

KILLER_CLOWN
07-22-2011, 11:40 PM
Give me 4 ICBMs & I will wipe Iran off the map in the name of Christianity.
I will even strap a few bibles to them.

Yes because Jesus has promised to come back as a Pilot to drop bombs on those whom do not believe in him. Oh wait that's the opposite of what Jesus taught.

If that was sarcasm, then i apologize in advance.

ForeverChiefs58
07-22-2011, 11:45 PM
Give me 4 ICBMs & I will wipe Iran off the map in the name of Christianity.
I will even strap a few bibles to them.

Ohhhs Nooos. No extremists there.


Iran: Ahmadinejad threatens to send US, Israel 'to the morgue'


Tehran, 20 July (AKI) - Iranian president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has threatened to destroy the United States and Israel if put on the defensive.

"Resistance will continue until Iran sends its enemies to the morgue," he said on his website, making a reference to the US and Israel who he said are "on the verge of collapse and gasping for their last breathes."

Ahmadinejad may have been reacting to news from Iranian state media that Iran brought down a U.S. "spy drone" flying near its Fordo nuclear enrichment plant in Qom province.

State-run Press TV didn't say when the incident happened. US officials said there were unaware that a US unmanned aircraft was downed, according to news reports.

The Islamic Republic, Ahmadinejad said on his website "is the region's greatest military power."


Flock Of Seaguls- "And Iran, Iran's so far away...they couldn't get away"

KILLER_CLOWN
07-22-2011, 11:53 PM
Ohhhs Nooos. No extremists there.


Iran: Ahmadinejad threatens to send US, Israel 'to the morgue'


Tehran, 20 July (AKI) - Iranian president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has threatened to destroy the United States and Israel if put on the defensive.

"Resistance will continue until Iran sends its enemies to the morgue," he said on his website, making a reference to the US and Israel who he said are "on the verge of collapse and gasping for their last breathes."

Ahmadinejad may have been reacting to news from Iranian state media that Iran brought down a U.S. "spy drone" flying near its Fordo nuclear enrichment plant in Qom province.

State-run Press TV didn't say when the incident happened. US officials said there were unaware that a US unmanned aircraft was downed, according to news reports.

The Islamic Republic, Ahmadinejad said on his website "is the region's greatest military power."


Flock Of Seaguls- "And Iran, Iran's so far away...they couldn't get away"

I would expect a similiar response from the US if we were threatened in any way.

LiveSteam
07-22-2011, 11:59 PM
We better hurry up. Time is a waist-en.
In the name of Christianity, In the name of humanity, In the name of we needed to test a new type of A-bomb. Give it any name you want. Get all the Western countries on board & have a big target shooting contest. I dont care!
Just.
GET-ER DONE!
<iframe width="425" height="349" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/WwlNPhn64TA" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

I give you the new Iran
http://img.ehowcdn.co.uk/article-page-main/ehow-uk/images/a07/ji/bn/pour-large-concrete-foundation-800x800.jpg

& at the same time I have fixed the illegal alien problem. Killed to birds with 6 ICBMs

ForeverChiefs58
07-23-2011, 09:24 AM
Is every poster that defends the violence of islam also a democrat?

Coincidence?

Not being able to see what the rest of the majority can see is an issue they repeatedly choose to ignore.

Frankie
07-23-2011, 10:10 AM
Nothing to see here folks, it's just a few nut jobs, kinda like that whole christian thingy 1,000 ****ing years ago, or the whole racist KKK thingy bob, move right along ya lookie loos.

Oslo bomb kills 7, gunman fires on youth camp

It was probably just the KKK. They were probably just going to Africa or israel to kill some blacks or jews and took a wrong turn.

Christians could be behind it also. maybe they took a voyage to try and find some abortion clinics. Word on the street is the Swiss have too libral views on abortion.

Lets keep a list. On one side we can put all of the terrorist acts committed by Christians and on the other all the terrorist acts committed by Muslims. Starting today. What do you say?

There is a reason we call it Islamic terrorism, and it isn't
because we falsely attribute motives to the terrorists, but
because Islam is the stated purpose and aim of the terrorists.

Ladies and gentlemen, fellow CP villagers..... Introducing THE VILLAGE IDIOTS!

(And resident ignorant bigots.)

http://news.yahoo.com/gunmans-background-puzzles-police-norway-044701742.html

"..a right-winger with anti-Muslim views.."

LiveSteam
07-23-2011, 10:16 AM
Funny how Frankie's Islamic friends
Jump right up, to take credit for the bombing yesterday. Even though they didnt do it.
Change your GOD DAM Avatar to Frankie. The Lone Ranger was PRO USA.

Frankie
07-23-2011, 10:21 AM
In 2007 Islam and Judaism's holiest holidays overlapped for 10 days.
Muslims racked up 397 dead bodies in 94 terror attacks across 10
countries during this time... while Jews worked on their 159th Nobel Prize.

When Islamic scientists, astronomers, mathematicians, and physicists were having humanity from total collapse there were no Nobel prize, and Christians in Europe were dumping their shit on their own streets and dying of diseases. And there are no evidence of great Jewish accomplishments until recently.

None of this had anything to do with religion then and non has anything to do with religion now. It had/has EVERYTHING to do with poverty, oppression, and lack of education. You are a blind, ideological, bigoted, ignoramous if you believe otherwise.

Frankie
07-23-2011, 10:24 AM
In 2007 Islam and Judaism's holiest holidays overlapped for 10 days.
Muslims racked up 397 dead bodies in 94 terror attacks across 10
countries during this time... while Jews worked on their 159th Nobel Prize.

BTW, I though the Nobel Prize was a joke. You guys told me so in another thread. :hmmm:

Hypocrite much?

go bowe
07-23-2011, 10:24 AM
Ladies and gentlemen, fellow CP villagers..... Introducing THE VILLAGE IDIOTS!

(And resident ignorant bigots.)

http://news.yahoo.com/gunmans-background-puzzles-police-norway-044701742.html

"..a right-winger with anti-Muslim views.."

yeah, i haven't seen even the suggestion from the norwegian government that the attacks were the work of muslims...

i was kinda surprised that some posters jumped to the conclusion that it was an islamic terrorist attack...

LiveSteam
07-23-2011, 10:26 AM
yeah, i haven't seen even the suggestion from the norwegian government that the attacks were the work of muslims...

i was kinda surprised that some posters jumped to the conclusion that it was an islamic terrorist attack...

A shadowy terrorist group called Assistants of the Global Jihad claimed responsibility for the bombing of the Norwegian Prime Minister's office and a massacre at a children's day camp via the Internet.

http://www.fastcompany.com/1768726/oslo-terrorists-allegedly-claim-responsibility-via-jihadi-forums-youtube

RedNeckRaider
07-23-2011, 10:26 AM
BTW, I though the Nobel Prize was a joke. You guys told me so in another thread. :hmmm:

Hypocrite much?

It is~

Jaric
07-23-2011, 10:32 AM
Is every poster that defends the violence of islam also a democrat?

Coincidence?

Not being able to see what the rest of the majority can see is an issue they repeatedly choose to ignore.No one is defending violence. Well except some of the Christian/republican posters who want to wage a holy war to wipe the middle east off the map of course.

And I'm a Libertarian for the record.

Frankie
07-23-2011, 10:33 AM
Islamic terrorists murder more people every day than the Ku Klux Klan has in the last 50 years.Meanwhile the KKK sit in their air-conditioned homes homes with full stomach, drinking their beer and watching their DVDs in their free time with no excuse other than their ideology, to kill people. Stupid comparison.
More people are killed by Islamists each year than in all 350 years of the Spanish Inquisition combined. What is the world population now vs. then? And what was the technological ability to kill the maximum number of people then compared to now. The mentality and the intent is the same, committing atrocities under the excuse of religion. Stupid comparison number 2.

More civilians were killed by Muslim extremists in two hours on September 11th than in the 36 years of sectarian conflict in Northern Ireland. And about a hundred thousand estimated Iraqi civilians were killed in Iraq during our war profiting endeavor in Iraq. What's your point?

ForeverChiefs58
07-23-2011, 10:36 AM
Ladies and gentlemen, fellow CP villagers..... Introducing [B][SIZE="5"]THE VILLAGE IDIOT


Thanks for introducing yourself, but we know your dumbass already!

If I wanted to hear from an asshole, I'd fart!

ForeverChiefs58
07-23-2011, 10:39 AM
Meanwhile the KKK sit in their air-conditioned homes homes with full stomach, drinking their beer and watching their DVDs in their free time with no excuse other than their ideology, to kill people. Stupid comparison.
What is the world population now vs. then? And what was the technological ability to kill the maximum number of people then compared to now. The mentality and the intent is the same, committing atrocities under the excuse of religion. Stupid comparison number 2.

And about a hundred thousand estimated Iraqi civilians were killed in Iraq during our war profiting endeavor in Iraq. What's your point?

Point is your a terrorist supporting fucking idiot.

Jaric
07-23-2011, 10:43 AM
Point is your a terrorist supporting ****ing idiot.

I realize I'm still new here, but I don't recall seeing Frankie supporting any terrorists. I've seen him point out that not all Muslims are terrorists (they aren't) but only a complete moron would make that jump so I must have missed the post in question where Frankie supports terrorists.

Now, I have seen several posters yelling at Frankie advocate the US engage in acts of nuclear terrorism, but nothing from Frankie on the subject.

ForeverChiefs58
07-23-2011, 10:49 AM
No one is defending violence. Well except some of the Christian/republican posters who want to wage a holy war to wipe the middle east off the map of course.

And I'm a Libertarian for the record.

Ya know like when Pat brought up the news of the poor repressed muslims killing a jewish baby and cheering about it. Everyone on here was condemning the attack. Then Frankie posts some BS excuses and condemning the jews.

Frankie
07-23-2011, 10:50 AM
You folks do realize that Christianity by far is responsible for more deaths then any other religion....right ?

"A conservative estimate puts the total number of brutal deaths in the 20 th century at more than 250 million. Of these, Muslims are responsible for less than 10 million deaths. Christians, or those coming from Christian backgrounds account for more than 200 million of these! The greatest death totals come from World War I (about 20 million, at least 90 % of which were inflicted by “Christians”) and World War II ( 90 million, at least 50% of which were inflicted by “Christians,” the majority of the rest occurring in the Far East). Given this grim history, it appears that we Europeans must all come to grips with the fact that Islamic civilization has actually been incomparably less brutal than Christian civilization. Did the Holocaust of over 6 million Jews occur out of the background of a Muslim Civilization?
In the 20th century alone

Western and/or Christian powers have been responsible for at least twenty times more deaths than have Muslim powers. In this most brutal of centuries, we created incomparably more civilian casualties than have Muslims in the whole of Islamic history."

Hitler was an atheist, dumb****.
To the best of my recollection, Saul, he has been 'alleged' to have been an atheist. Did he announce his atheist belief and upbringing? He was brought up in a Christian family. This makes him a part of the "Christian civilization" that Thatguy's post refers to. Also it's more than safe to consider that his staff, cronies, and henchemen who committed, ordered, or authorized the extermination of 6 million Jews were Christians.

So your little tantrum and name calling here is basically an upward spit.

Frankie
07-23-2011, 10:50 AM
You ever get tired of being a stupid ****?

ROFL

Jaric
07-23-2011, 10:53 AM
Ya know like when Pat brought up the news of the poor repressed muslims killing a jewish baby and cheering about it. Everyone on here was condemning the attack. Then Frankie posts some BS excuses and condemning the jews.

Must have missed that one. The usual formula is see around here is that someone posts something fucked up that a terrorist does, half a dozen posters talk about how great it would be to wipe Islam off the map and Frankie responds to it.

Frankie
07-23-2011, 10:54 AM
BTW, if Muslims truly believed in their religoin they themselves would stop their own side from committing terrorist acts.

Stop? how? And what does this have to do with just being MUSLIMS?

Jaric
07-23-2011, 10:55 AM
To the best of my recollection, Saul, he has been 'alleged' to have been an atheist. Did he announce his atheist belief and upbringing? He was brought up in a Christian family. This makes him a part of the "Christian civilization" that Thatguy's post refers to. Also it's more than safe to consider that his staff, cronies, and henchemen who committed, ordered, or authorized the extermination of 6 million Jews were Christians.

So your little tantrum and name calling here is basically an upward spit.

I don't really think it matters if he was Christian or not as just I don't really think it matters if those one who sucks the peniss telling people Allah wants them to blow things up are really Muslims. They both are twisting the message of a religion to get people to do ****ed up things.

Frankie
07-23-2011, 11:06 AM
What the **** are you talking about? Do you know what an atheist is? I'll give you a hint. It's not a Christian.

That's to say nothing of the fact that this Muslims are killing in the name of Islam.

Let's see, a Muslim nut job kills some people. The said NUT JOB claims he did it for (his perverted, nut job interpretation of) his religion. Islam is the evil ingredient here. Not that the guy is crazy blind ideologue. Another nu job, raised in a Christian family, with a vague probability that he might have become an atheist at some point puts together a terror organization of Christians who murder 6 million Jews and so many other people and Christianity gets a pass.

I get it. Thanks for clearing that up for me.

That is different than a Christian killing a dude after walking in on him plowing his wife. Oh, the very rare incidences of killing that are done by Christians are simply guys who walk in on their wives and their lovers. Got it.

Frankie
07-23-2011, 11:09 AM
My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before in the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice.... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.... When I go out in the morning and see these men standing in their queues and look into their pinched faces, then I believe I would be no Christian, but a very devil if I felt no pity for them, if I did not, as did our Lord two thousand years ago, turn against those by whom to-day this poor people is plundered and exploited.

-Adolf Hitler, in his speech in Munich on 12 April 1922

ROFL. Be careful Saul will call you a dumb **** for stating facts.

ForeverChiefs58
07-23-2011, 11:10 AM
Let's see, a Muslim nut job kills some people

Yep, there has only been one, I don't see what everyone is so upset.

Try a million nut jobs who claim this:

"I am one of the servants of Allah. We do our duty of fighting for the
sake of the religion of Allah. It is also our duty to send a call to
all the people of the world to enjoy this great light and to
embrace Islam and experience the happiness in Islam.
Our primary mission is nothing but the furthering of this religion."

-Osama bin Laden (1957 - 2011)

BucEyedPea
07-23-2011, 11:14 AM
Terrorist attacks by Muslims do not stem soley from their religion—it stems from a land dispute which is politics and because of our politics to control the region for other purposes.

The religious angle comes in because they can kill the infidel which is defined as someone who is harming their people. The religious angle enters when they use rhetoric to justify it.

There is a blind-spot by Muslim-haters in the west because they ignore the obvious—that we've* been over there killing their people, installing puppet govts etc in order to control the region for resources as mercantilist interests have done through centuries, instead of just engaging in trade to buy their oil—the same way we traded with the nasty Ottomans who were cruel to the Arabs under their yoke.


* we being the western govts of France, England and the United States mainly.

Frankie
07-23-2011, 11:15 AM
Hitler cynically used religion to climb to power.

BINGO!!!

You are a man after my own heart, sir. THIS IS WHAT WE HAVE BEEN ARGUING ALL ALONG THIS THREAD! It's not the religion,... IT'S THE EXCUSE!

go bowe
07-23-2011, 11:19 AM
A shadowy terrorist group called Assistants of the Global Jihad claimed responsibility for the bombing of the Norwegian Prime Minister's office and a massacre at a children's day camp via the Internet.

http://www.fastcompany.com/1768726/oslo-terrorists-allegedly-claim-responsibility-via-jihadi-forums-youtube

i'd expect some jihadi organization to take responsibility for every incident involving mass casualties...

as far as i cant tell from the news reports, the shooter is not muslim and is of norse descent, and at least one oslo tv station is reporting that it looks like the shooter is a christian fundamentalist...

[http://english.aljazeera.net/news/europe/2011/07/2011722222451150369.html]

Frankie
07-23-2011, 11:20 AM
Third: It's not moral to blame someone's descendant for a their sin.

It's also not moral to kill someone's children and family as his punishment or test of loyalty. Yet the God of the Bible does that many times.

Stevie is either woefully unread about his own book of mythology or just a hypocrite.

Frankie
07-23-2011, 11:21 AM
Hitler's references to providence and God and the ritualistic pageantry of Nazism were more than likely pagan than Christian.

Cop out answer = total fail.

ForeverChiefs58
07-23-2011, 11:22 AM
Terrorist attacks by Muslims do not stem soley from their religion—it stems from a land dispute which is politics.
The religious angle is because they can kill the infidel which is defined as someone who is harming their people.
There is a blind-spot by Muslim-haters in the west because they ignore the obvious—we've been over there killing their people, installing puppet govts etc in order to control the region for resources as mercantilist interests have done through centuries, instead of just engaging in trade to buy their oil.

Was it a land dispute when they helped Hitler BEFORE they even had land.

Was it a land dispute when they preached of tracking down the jews throughout Europe and exterminating them?

Did flying planes into buildings in the US help their land dispute?

There are roughly 50 muslim countries in the world and 1 jewish. They need more land?

I think most in the west would just be happy if they stopped killing people.

ForeverChiefs58
07-23-2011, 11:24 AM
Cop out answer = total fail.

That was just a quote from wikipedia. Frankie = total fail.

Rams Fan
07-23-2011, 11:29 AM
Point is your a terrorist supporting ****ing idiot.

Point is, if you're going to call someone an idiot, use correct grammar.

Frankie
07-23-2011, 11:29 AM
So if Tebow leads the Broncos to a win in Arrowhead this year does that count as a Christian act of terrorism to a Chiefs fan?

Now you and I have been on the side of the sane in this thread. But don't push your luck for I may join the dark side.

:p

Frankie
07-23-2011, 11:30 AM
Then its time to burn Colorado to the ground...in the name of Chiefology

Maybe that will get rid of failpass for us too. :hmmm:

go bowe
07-23-2011, 11:41 AM
Maybe that will get rid of failpass for us too. :hmmm:

i think he lives in az...

and there's not a lot to burn out there...

maybe a flood?

vailpass
07-23-2011, 11:42 AM
Anybody bomb Iran yet? What is the hold up, are they giving their women time to trim their beards before they take them out?

go bowe
07-23-2011, 11:44 AM
Anybody bomb Iran yet? What is the hold up, are they giving their women time to trim their beards before they take them out?

little bombs from predators, or big bombs from planes, or thermonuclear bombs from icbm's?

ForeverChiefs58
07-23-2011, 11:50 AM
Point is, if you're going to call someone an idiot, use correct grammar.


Using correct grammar calling someone and idiot on CP is very taboo.

vailpass
07-23-2011, 11:56 AM
little bombs from predators, or big bombs from planes, or thermonuclear bombs from icbm's?

Any and all means to keep the savages from getting nukes. Like this piece of good work from today:

Gunmen on motorcycles assassinated an Iranian nuclear physicist on Saturday, Iranian media reports said, in a killing that bore similarities to other slayings of scientists involved in the country's nuclear work in recent years.

The semi-official ISNA news agency identified the victim as Darioush Rezaei, a 35-year-old physics professor involved in Iran's nuclear program, and said he was shot dead in front of his home in Tehran. Iran's official IRNA news agency also reported the killing but had few details on the attack or the man's background.

Several Iranian nuclear scientists have been murdered in recent years in attacks that Iran has blamed on the U.S. and Israel, which both accuse Tehran of seeking to develop a nuclear weapons capability under the cover of its civilian atomic energy program. Iran denies the accusations and says its program has entirely peaceful aims.

The semi-official Mehr news agency also identified the victim of Saturday's attack as a professor of physics who was involved in the nuclear program and said he was assassinated in front of his house in Bani Hashem street in Tehran.

The wife of the scientist was wounded in the attack and rushed to a hospital for treatment, Mehr reported, quoting a police official.

Two attackers on motorbikes approached Rezaei's car as he was driving up to his home in northeast Tehran with his wife and young daughter, said the news website asriran.com.

The assailants fired five shots before fleeing, and Rezaei was hit in the neck and hand, asriran reported.

Despite U.N. and other sanctions, Iran has steadily moved ahead with its uranium enrichment work, the central aspect of its nuclear program and the process that is of deepest concern to the West because it can be used both to produce reactor fuel and material for nuclear warheads.

Iran insists it is only after reactor fuel, but the U.N.'s nuclear watchdog agency has accused Iran of stalling its investigation into the work for years.

Rezaei's expertise — neutron transport — lies at the heart of nuclear chain reactions in reactors and bombs.

In November, a pair of back-to-back bomb attacks in different parts of the capital killed one nuclear scientist and wounded another. President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad blamed the U.S. and Israel.

In those attacks, assailants on motorcycles attached magnetized bombs to the cars of two scientists as they drove to work. They detonated seconds later.

The man who survived that attack, Fereidoun Abbasi, is on a list of figures suspected of links to secret nuclear activities in a 2007 U.N. sanctions resolution, which put a travel ban and asset freeze on those listed.

Abbasi has since been named one of Iran's vice presidents and head of its nuclear agency.

The scientist killed in that attack had the same area of expertise as Rezaei.

At least two other Iranian nuclear scientists have been killed in recent years.

Iran's foreign minister said earlier this month that his country was ready to cooperate more closely with the U.N.'s International Atomic Energy Agency but only if it ends its investigation into allegations that Tehran has secretly worked on a nuclear weapons program — a condition rejected by the head of the U.N. nuclear watchdog.

Iran argues it has cooperated and answered all questions mandated by the plan governing the agency's probe.

© 2011 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/43865727/ns/world_news-mideast_n_africa/#

ForeverChiefs58
07-23-2011, 11:56 AM
"There is a reason we call it Islamic terrorism, and it isn't
because we falsely attribute motives to the terrorists, but
because Islam is the stated purpose and aim of the terrorists."

-Daniel Greenfield

Fankie do you disagree with this?

stevieray
07-23-2011, 12:00 PM
Not semantics, I'm actually trying to communicate with you but we don't seem to have very many common points of reference. I'll restate it:

If God making direct personal contact with his prophets, but not with the general population of his followers, counts as a personal relationship, then why does a similar situation for Muslims not count?

...cmon man, you've done a complete 180. You came into this thread arguing that the Biblical God wasn't available to man, therefore, just like Allah.

stevieray
07-23-2011, 12:22 PM
I love it when some backward thinking religious fundamentalist proudly declares a universally accepted fact as "incorrect."LMAO Shows the extent of how deep his reliance on mythology is.


That's the most laughable superstitious mumbo jumbo you have ever posted. You are killing us. Anybody who has read the OT and applied a little thought to it knows that the God of OT is the most jealous, vane, power-mad, bully entity who regards humans as nothing but gnats he can zap out of existence. He in fact boasts about it and threatens man to death at every corner.

Furthermore your description of "Allah" (who in your closed mind obviously is a different God than God of Abraham) is strictly out of your own ass. Otherwise please link a credible link that discusses this.



That's why a true practicing Muslim personally prays to God 5 times a day regardless of where he/she is. As opposed to praying once a week in a church like hypocrites like you do with your "special relationship" with God do.


Why does shaming someone that he was born of sin a prerequisite to expectations of moral standards. There are more and more research that points to the fact that this bullshit was injected into Christianity by Popes of centuries ago. And close minded people like you are still sucking on it.

keep spewing frankie, it just reaffirms what everyone knows.

you're a hateful, religious bigot...it's prolly why you constantly attempt to project it onto others.

ForeverChiefs58
07-23-2011, 12:41 PM
Nothing to see here folks, move along.
Iran

“Those who know nothing of Islam pretend that Islam counsels against war. Those who say this are witless. Islam says: 'Kill all the unbelievers just as they would kill you all! Kill them, put them to the sword and scatter their armies.'”

-The Ayatollah Khomeini

ForeverChiefs58
07-23-2011, 12:43 PM
Aside from pursuing mass murder plots against innocent populations in every corner of the planet, Islamic terrorists have one other thing in common:

They credit their motivation and success to religion.

Islam isn't hijacked by extremists - it is what sustains them. This distinguishes Islamic terrorism from mere criminal activity, and it is part of what makes Islam so very, very different from other religions.

Many people would prefer to bury their heads in the sand or look for ways to recast Islamic terror to fit their own political agenda, but the fact is that violent Muslims are quite explicit about the religious certainty that compels and justifies their actions.

The teachings and early history of Islam that explain the violence are discussed elsewhere on this site. Here we just want to show that, as far as Islamic terrorists are concerned, their acts are done specifically in the name of Allah and for the cause of Islam and Islamic rule... across the globe.

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Pages/In-The-Name-of-Allah.htm

Frankie
07-23-2011, 12:47 PM
Do you really believe Hitler, neo nazis or the KKK have recognition of Jesus Christ and Christianity?

Do people pick on you a lot in real life?

Hitler, NeoNazis and the KKK are just as representative of Christianity as the nut jobs you keep digging out and posting are of Islam. But your head is too thick with blind hatred to let that in.

ForeverChiefs58
07-23-2011, 12:48 PM
Top Saudi Cleric Issues Fatwa Defending Pedophilia As Marriage, Says Girls Can Be Married While “They Are In The Cradle”

Muslim "child-marriage"—euphemism for pedophilia—is making headlines again, at least in Arabic media: Dr. Salih bin Fawzan, a prominent cleric and member of Saudi Arabia's highest religious council, just issued a fatwa asserting that there is no minimum age for marriage, and that girls can be married "even if they are in the cradle."

Appearing in Saudi papers on July 13, the fatwa complains that "Uninformed interference with Sharia rulings by the press and journalists is on the increase, posing dire consequences to society, including their interference with the question of marriage to small girls who have not reached maturity, and their demand that a minimum age be set for girls to marry."

Fawzan insists that nowhere does Sharia set an age limit for marrying girls: like countless Muslim scholars before him, he relies on Koran 65:4, which discusses marriage to females who have not yet begun menstruating (i.e., are prepubescent) and the fact that Muhammad, Islam's role model, married Aisha when she was 6-years-old, "consummating" the marriage—or, in modern parlance, raping her—when she was 9.

The point of the Saudi fatwa, however, is not that girls as young as 9 can have sex, based on Muhammad's example, but rather that there is no age limit whatsoever; the only question open to consideration is whether the girl is physically capable of handling her husband/rapist. Fawzan documents this point by quoting Ibn Batal's authoritative exegesis of Sahih Bukhari:


The ulema [Islam's interpreters] have agreed that it is permissible for fathers to marry off their small daughters, even if they are in the cradle. But it is not permissible for their husbands to have sex with them unless they are capable of being placed beneath and bearing the weight of the men. And their capability in this regard varies based on their nature and capacity. Aisha was 6 when she married the prophet, but he had sex with her when she was 9 [i.e., when she was deemed capable].

Fawzan concludes his fatwa with a warning: "It behooves those who call for setting a minimum age for marriage to fear Allah and not contradict his Sharia, or try to legislate things Allah did not permit. For laws are Allah's province; and legislation is his excusive right, to be shared by none other. And among these are the rules governing marriage."

Fawzan, of course, is not the first to insist on the legitimacy of pedophilia in Islam. Even the former grand mufti of Saudi Arabia supported "child-marriage," since "the Koran and Sunna document it."

Nor is this just some theoretic, theological point; the lives of many young girls are being destroyed because of this ruling. Recall, for instance, the 13-year-old girl who died while her much older husband was copulating with her (it was later revealed that, due to her reluctance, he was tying her up and "raping" her—as if there is another way to describe sex with children); or the 12-year-old who died giving birth to a stillborn; or the 10-year-old who made headlines by hiding out from her 80-year-old "husband."

Then there are the countless anonymous girls who do nothing to warrant any media attention—such as die—and have learned to live with their elderly husbands pawing at them, like, no doubt, the girl who married Islam's most popular cleric, Yusuf Qaradawi, when she was 14.

What do we make of the fact that it is always Islam's religious, authoritative voices—not aberrant voices, not "terrorists," "extremists," or any other euphemism coined for the occasion—that are constantly demonstrating Sharia's savageries? Weeks before this fatwa, a female politician and activist in Kuwait called for institutionalizing sex-slavery (recommending that Muslims buy and sell female Russian captives from the Chechnya war); a popular Egyptian preacher not only said the same thing, but added that the solution to Islam's poverty is to go on jihad and plunder the lives and possessions of infidels.

Sounds odd? Perhaps; but it is perfectly consistent. After all, distilled and in the eyes of the non-believer, Sharia law is nothing less than a legal system built atop the words and deeds of a 7th century Arab, whose behavior—from pedophilia and sex-slavery to war mongering and plundering—was very much that of a 7th century Arab. Having enticed or enslaved his contemporaries into following him, his teachings continue to entice and enslave their descendants; and, now as then, it is always the innocent who suffer.

http://www.raymondibrahim.com/9956/new-saudi-fatwa-defends-pedophilia-as-marriage

Frankie
07-23-2011, 12:49 PM
Is every poster that defends the violence of islam also sane?

Coincidence?

Not being able to see what the rest of the majority can see is an issue they repeatedly choose to ignore.
FYP.

ForeverChiefs58
07-23-2011, 12:50 PM
Hitler, NeoNazis and the KKK are just as representative of Christianity as the nut jobs you keep digging out and posting are of Islam. But your head is too thick with blind hatred to let that in.

Do you agree or disagree with this:

"There is a reason we call it Islamic terrorism, and it isn't
because we falsely attribute motives to the terrorists, but
because Islam is the stated purpose and aim of the terrorists."


Is this fair or not?

Frankie
07-23-2011, 12:52 PM
No one is defending violence. Well except some of the Christian/republican posters who want to wage a holy war to wipe the middle east off the map of course.LOL

Projection is a strong talent of Righty saber rattlers.

Frankie
07-23-2011, 12:52 PM
Thanks for introducing yourself, but we know your dumbass already!

If I wanted to hear from an asshole, I'd fart!

Lame.

Frankie
07-23-2011, 12:54 PM
Thanks for introducing yourself, but we know your dumbass already!

If I wanted to hear from an asshole, I'd fart!

Point is your a terrorist supporting ****ing idiot.

Fail. I can't wait to read your new drama-queen thread about how Christianity is the Religion of peace and goodwill that is responsible for the murder of 92 people in Norway.

Frankie
07-23-2011, 12:56 PM
Ya know like when Pat brought up the news of the poor repressed muslims killing a jewish baby and cheering about it. Everyone on here was condemning the attack. Then Frankie posts some BS excuses and condemning the jews.

Prove it.

I have never offered any more "excuses" than in this thread.

Frankie
07-23-2011, 01:00 PM
Must have missed that one. The usual formula is see around here is that someone posts something ****ed up that a terrorist does, half a dozen posters talk about how great it would be to wipe Islam off the map and Frankie responds to it.

I am not religious at all. But i would defend against blind ignorant hatred every time. I'm chiming in for the principle of it. If this thread was the same belittling, angry, agitation-causing thread about Christians or Jews you'd see me fight it the same way.

Frankie
07-23-2011, 01:07 PM
Was it a land dispute when they helped Hitler BEFORE they even had land.

LMAO

Hitler = Not Christian

Ottomans = Muslims who were allied with Hitler "just because they were dirty Muslims."

Not biased and bigoted at all. No sir!

(BTW, Mussolini and Franco were allied with Hitler too. A fact I'm sure just slipped your mind when you posted)

Frankie
07-23-2011, 01:13 PM
"There is a reason we call it Islamic terrorism, and it isn't
because we falsely attribute motives to the terrorists, but
because Islam is the stated purpose and aim of the terrorists."

-Daniel Greenfield

Fankie do you disagree with this?

Are you really asking me this with a straight face? Wow! You don't read other people's posts do you? Just keep posting your hate-filled emotions and you're a happy camper. :shake:

Jaric
07-23-2011, 01:13 PM
I am not religious at all. But i would defend against blind ignorant hatred every time. I'm chiming in for the principle of it. If this thread was the same belittling, angry, agitation-causing thread about Christians or Jews you'd see me fight it the same way.

Same here.

Frankie
07-23-2011, 01:15 PM
keep spewing frankie, it just reaffirms what everyone knows.

you're a hateful, religious bigot...it's prolly why you constantly attempt to project it onto others.LMAO

Any Challenge to the points that I correctly made in my post, or does spitting at me just suffice?

ForeverChiefs58
07-23-2011, 01:19 PM
LMAO

Hitler = Not Christian

Ottomans = Muslims who were allied with Hitler "just because they were dirty Muslims."

Not biased and bigoted at all. No sir!

(BTW, Mussolini and Franco were allied with Hitler too. A fact I'm sure just slipped your mind when you posted)

Calling Hitler a Christian is ridiculous

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/images/Nazi-Prisoner-Form.jpg
A Nazi concentration camp entry form. A category for Christian clergy (Geistliche) is included alongside other "undesirables, including Jews.

"Christianity is an invention of sick brains," Adolf Hitler, 13 December 1941.

"So it's not opportune to hurl ourselves now into a struggle with the Churches. The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death," Adolf Hitler, 14 October 1941.

BucEyedPea
07-23-2011, 01:26 PM
Was it a land dispute when they helped Hitler BEFORE they even had land.
No because the semite people of the area both Muslim and Jew lived peacefully.

Let's not forget these are the same people who helped England and France defeat Germany in WWI with the promised payback, once the Ottomans were defeated, of self-rule in their own land.

Was it a land dispute when they preached of tracking down the jews throughout Europe and exterminating them?
Like Europe's Christian pogroms against Jews?

You have dropped out time for this to even be relevant. Go back to late 1800's with Theodor Herzl and track that movement as well as events during WWI with promises made by Britain and France, while intending to betray the local people all along, just because they were needed to bring down the Ottoman empire. Sikes-Picot agreement included.

Skipping pertinant history is intellectually dishonest.

Did flying planes into buildings in the US help their land dispute?
That was blowback for leaving US military bases on their holy lands post PGWI, allowing women and children to die due to lack of medicine because of sanctions on Iraq.
Do these crimes by the west ever end either? No. Again, you leave out time frames.

There are roughly 50 muslim countries in the world and 1 jewish. They need more land?
Irrelevant to my points. Besides, Israel is not a Jewish theocracy...it claims to be a democracy.

I think most in the west would just be happy if they stopped killing people.

I think most Muslims in the world would be happy, leave us alone if we'd stop killing their people, interfering in their govts doing things that would piss us all off too.

Your hatred biases you in the extreme. The problems between Christians and Muslims extend back over a thousand years. Meanwhile, jews got along better with Muslims than the Christian west until the west meddled in the ME.

ForeverChiefs58
07-23-2011, 01:28 PM
LMAO

Hitler = Not Christian

Ottomans = Muslims who were allied with Hitler "just because they were dirty Muslims."

Not biased and bigoted at all. No sir!

(BTW, Mussolini and Franco were allied with Hitler too. A fact I'm sure just slipped your mind when you posted)


Hitler was NOT Christian. My post about Grand Mufti Haj Amin al-Husseini and his muslim army being a killer of Jews before/after Hitler, and before Israel existed was in response to BEP.

ForeverChiefs58
07-23-2011, 01:29 PM
"What about Hitler, wasn't he a Christian?"

This question is asked of us in various ways, sometimes by Westerners who tend to view all religion monolithically and negatively, other times by anti-Christian bigots, and most frequently by Muslims who think they've discovered an advantageous way of trivializing the violence produced by Islamic radicals. The fatigued logic of each is that Christianity must be responsible for the crimes of Hitler, since Germany is a demographically Christian country.

This thin reasoning seems to take root only in the mind of shallow thinkers, or those whose anti-Christian bias overshadows critical objectivity, since it is both logically inconsistent and historically inaccurate.

It's true that Germany is a Christian country, in the same way that every nation on the planet is identified with some form of religion, irrespective of whether a majority of those living within its borders actually strive to live a life that is congruent with the teachings of the faith. This hardly bestows religious sanction on the actions of every citizen or elected official.

Indeed, the leadership and direction of a country is very often at odds with its nominal religion. When the Syrian dictator, Hafez al-Assad, slaughtered thousands of religious fundamentalists in 1982, he did it for the very secular purpose of retaining power. Saddam Hussein has engaged in brutal acts of torture against political dissidents - and their families. Like all Arab leaders at one time or another, both men hid behind the cloak of Islam when it suited their conveniences. (A 2003 interview with Saddam, in which the barbaric Hussein invoked the "will of Allah" several times in disingenuous fashion, was particularly repugnant to this writer).

So, the fact that Hitler occasionally referenced Christianity is not necessarily a sign of personal religious fervor (nor is it an indication of religious sanction). There is no compelling reason to believe it to be anything more than the same cynical ploy used by most leaders to appeal to the deepest passions of their people at critical moments regardless of the inconsistency that their national goals may have with religious teachings.

For honest inquirers then, the fundamental question becomes: What motivated Hitler, and were his actions justified by Christian teachings?

These questions are rarely explored by those who make allegations of a "Christian Holocaust" in hit-and-run fashion. Part of this is because people simply prefer to believe what they prefer to believe. There is no point in discovering whether a belief is right or wrong as long as it serves a personal interest or provides comfort (ironically, the very charge made by critics of religion). But another reason is the seductive appeal that useful clichés (no matter how hollow) often have against intellectual inquiry, which requires greater effort to pursue.

As an example of the perils of this sort of mental laziness, TROP often notes that the same people who write to us alleging that the Nazis were a 'Christian' army in World War II are also prone to accuse the Americans of being a 'Christian' army in Iraq. Perhaps they are dimly aware that the Americans destroyed the Nazi war machine in 1945 (and liberated the concentration camps), but their bulb never seems to burns bright enough to illuminate the contradiction.

Muslims who write often forget that Hitler was well received in the Islamic world, where his legacy of killing Jews for the sake of killing Jews is still alive and well. And, although Mein Kamph certainly provides the philosophical underpinnings of the slaughter that followed, it doesn't actually order the killing of Jews in the way that the Qur'an bluntly commands the physical slaying of non-Muslims.

Fortunately, for those who wish to dig beneath the surface, it doesn't take much to discover that, rather than being motivated by Christianity, Hitler was very much a Nazi. His entire philosophy was built around German nationalism and Aryan supremacy, which were the fundamental planks of his National Socialist Party. In his own words: "One is either a Christian or a German. You can't be both."

Indeed, the Christian faith is based on the New Testament, which can easily be used to justify pacifism, but not mass murder. There are no open-ended passages commanding the murder of those who reject the founder or directing a worldly conquest by the sword as there are in the Qur'an. Instead, believers are told to "turn the other cheek," "bless them that curse you," and warned that "those who live by the sword shall die by the sword."

World War II was hardly a scheme to spread Christianity (or Lutheranism, since Hitler invaded other "Christian countries" for the most part). The war was the result of a quest for political and economic power by the Germans and the Japanese - the same motives that drive most wars. Even the Nazi act of killing Jews was purely racial, as Hitler made very clear in Mein Kampf by insisting that Jews were a race and not a religion.

Those who followed Christian teachings in Nazi Germany wound up in concentrations camps. In fact, during WWII, the largest community of Christian clerics in Europe was to be found in these death camps - surpassing even the Vatican in strength of numbers. The Nazis listed 'Geistliche' (pastors, priests and clergymen) alongside 'Juden' and 'Homosexueller' on concentration camp entry forms to define prisoner type.

Although the Protestant and Catholic traditions in Germany limited the Fuehrer's public comments about religion (and also made necessary the elaborate measures taken to keep the existence of gas chambers concealed from the German public) he was quite candid in his personal observations. "It is through the peasantry that we will really be able to destroy Christianity, because there is in them a true religion rooted in nature and blood."

It's easy to isolate a few statements of political convenience made by Hitler, particularly if one has an ulterior agenda, but a man is revealed by what he does and Hitler's deeds prove that he was very much a pagan whose vision of the future did not include a role for token Christianity.

When the Nazis stormed Poland in 1939, the Christian clergy were hunted almost as relentlessly as were the Jews. By 1940 only 3% remained in their parishes. Thousands were slaughtered, along with fellow church workers and nuns. Those who remained were strictly forbidden to evangelize, own property, or preach uncensored from the New Testament. In other words, they lived very much like dhimmis do under Islam.

To his closest advisors, Hitler reviled Christianity, calling in an "invention of the Jew," a product of "sick brains" and "gutless." He also referred to it as "the worst of the regressions that mankind can every have undergone." (see Robert Spencer's Religion of Peace?)

The contempt that Nazis had for Christians was not softened by the fact that nearly all of those Europeans involved in sheltering Jews were strong believers who acted according to Christian teachings. Jesus was a very gentle man who never hurt anyone and strongly disapproved of violence.

By contrast, Muhammad was a military leader who conducted raids on caravans, supervised mass slaughter - of Jews - and even advised his fighting men on how to rape women captured in battle. For this reason, perhaps, Hitler openly admired Islam, even saying that that it would have been a more appropriate choice for Nazism, given its propensity for violence: "The Mohammedan religion too would have been much more compatible to us than Christianity."

Given that Christianity neither motivated Hitler nor justified his actions, and that Christians and Jews were amply represented among his victims (particularly those who lived consistently with the teachings of their faith), it is certainly puzzling that anyone should want to suppose otherwise. After all, what's really gained by believing a lie? When does false comfort become more appealing than existential truth?

Regrettably, these are fat and lazy times (intellectually speaking). Although the information age offers an unprecedented opportunity to balance worldview with fact, many choose instead to apply a paradigm that filters out unpleasant truth, allowing the subject to wallow in opinions and aphorisms that are tailored to preconceptions.

Is a U.S. Post Office shooting a 'Christian crime' because the killer was born a Presbyterian? If a mentally deranged individual shoots up a mosque in Yemen before turning the gun on himself, or if a member of the Kurdistan Workers Party plants a bomb, is this really motivated by Islam? Who would make the irrational assumption that any crime committed by a nominal member of a faith must be attributed to that religion?

Ironically, those who try to hold Christianity responsible for Hitler rely on the same bigoted logic that fuels anti-Semitism - the idea that an entire religion or race is to blame for the actions of a nominal member of the identity group.

In this case the teachings of Christianity directly contradict the the crimes of the Nazis. Jesus loved Jews and surrounded himself with them. Unlike Muhammad, he never advocated violence.

Hitler was not a religious man. The nominal religion of the vast majority of people that he killed was Christian. There is no evidence that he had any interest in imitating Christ or spreading religion, and there is every reason to believe exactly the opposite.

By contrast, Islamic terrorists quote from the Qur'an and praise Allah as they videotape themselves beheading an "infidel." Serving Islam is clearly their prime motivator. This simply wasn't the case when Germany invaded Poland (or even when Iraq invaded Kuwait).

Don't be fooled by the sleight-of-hand, or seduced by the moral superiority held out as a reward. The historical record is clear, and the logic is sound. Christianity neither motivated nor sanctioned Adolph Hitler and his demented pagan dreams.

Additional Note:

Over the years, many Christian leaders have offered apologies to the Jewish people for the Holocaust. This is not necessarily a case of misplaced responsibility on their part. Hitler may not have been a product of Christianity, but the Christians of that time obviously did not do everything that they should have to stop him. Even if they didn't know of the gas chambers, there should have been far stronger opposition to his explicit anti-Semitism.

Second Note:

Since posting this article, several people have reminded us that Hitler was known to have bemoaned the fact that Germany was a Christian rather than Muslim nation, since it made it made his genocidal campaign against Jews that much harder.

Third Note:

Interestingly, the Qur'an of Medina (that part of it which was composed in Muhammad's later years) devotes more text toward hatred of the Jews than does Mein Kampf (10.6% to 6.8% according to CSPI).

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Articles/Hitler.htm

Donger
07-23-2011, 01:30 PM
Hitler, NeoNazis and the KKK are just as representative of Christianity as the nut jobs you keep digging out and posting are of Islam. But your head is too thick with blind hatred to let that in.

Hitler wasn't a Christian, Frankie.

BucEyedPea
07-23-2011, 01:31 PM
Hitler wasn't a Christian, Frankie.

No but plenty of Nazis were and plenty of Germans who allowed what happened to happen.

Frankie
07-23-2011, 01:31 PM
Hitler wasn't a Christian, Frankie.

:facepalm:

Donger
07-23-2011, 01:33 PM
:facepalm:

You should cover your face. He wasn't a Christian. You really thought he was?

ForeverChiefs58
07-23-2011, 01:37 PM
Are you really asking me this with a straight face? Wow! You don't read other people's posts do you? Just keep posting your hate-filled emotions and you're a happy camper. :shake:

Why can't you just answer? Yes, I am asking you with a straight face. You talk out of both sides of your face, so it is up in the air.
I am honostly asking you if you think it is wrong to call it Islamic terrorism. I cannot imagine and have never heard anyone try and dispute that.

BucEyedPea
07-23-2011, 01:39 PM
I realize this is wiki but it's the shortest way to deal with this:


"Adolf Hitler's religious views are a matter of some dispute. While raised by a skeptic father and Catholic mother, after childhood, he ceased to participate in the Sacraments completely. He sometimes made public statements which seemed to affirm religion (which suited his political purposes) and prior to 1940 had promoted a "positive Christianity", purged of Judaism and instilled with Nazi philosophy, but in private was hostile to Christianity and had a plan to destroy it after the war. The degree to which he imbibed in and was influenced by the racist occultism, paganism and esotericism which was popular in late 19th, early 20th century Germany is also a matter of dispute."

The Nazi hierarchy were into occultism something Christianity condemns.

ForeverChiefs58
07-23-2011, 02:01 PM
No because the semite people of the area both Muslim and Jew lived peacefully.

Let's not forget these are the same people who helped England and France defeat Germany in WWI with the promised payback, once the Ottomans were defeated, of self-rule in their own land.


Like Europe's Christian pogroms against Jews?

You have dropped out time for this to even be relevant. Go back to late 1800's with Theodor Herzl and track that movement as well as events during WWI with promises made by Britain and France, while intending to betray the local people all along, just because they were needed to bring down the Ottoman empire. Sikes-Picot agreement included.

Skipping pertinant history is intellectually dishonest.


That was blowback for leaving US military bases on their holy lands post PGWI, allowing women and children to die due to lack of medicine because of sanctions on Iraq.
Do these crimes by the west ever end either? No. Again, you leave out time frames.


Irrelevant to my points. Besides, Israel is not a Jewish theocracy...it claims to be a democracy.



I think most Muslims in the world would be happy, leave us alone if we'd stop killing their people, interfering in their govts doing things that would piss us all off too.

Your hatred biases you in the extreme. The problems between Christians and Muslims extend back over a thousand years. Meanwhile, jews got along better with Muslims than the Christian west until the west meddled in the ME.

link?

LiveSteam
07-23-2011, 02:03 PM
Hitlers ties to the the occult & mysticism, are well documented. man was a freak not a Christian

ForeverChiefs58
07-23-2011, 02:04 PM
I realize this is wiki but it's the shortest way to deal with this:


"Adolf Hitler's religious views are a matter of some dispute. While raised by a skeptic father and Catholic mother, after childhood, he ceased to participate in the Sacraments completely. He sometimes made public statements which seemed to affirm religion (which suited his political purposes) and prior to 1940 had promoted a "positive Christianity", purged of Judaism and instilled with Nazi philosophy, but in private was hostile to Christianity and had a plan to destroy it after the war. The degree to which he imbibed in and was influenced by the racist occultism, paganism and esotericism which was popular in late 19th, early 20th century Germany is also a matter of dispute."

The Nazi hierarchy were into occultism something Christianity condemns.


His entire philosophy was built around German nationalism and Aryan supremacy, which were the fundamental planks of his National Socialist Party. In his own words: "One is either a Christian or a German. You can't be both."

BucEyedPea
07-23-2011, 02:20 PM
His entire philosophy was built around German nationalism and Aryan supremacy, which were the fundamental planks of his National Socialist Party. In his own words: "One is either a Christian or a German. You can't be both."

Yeah, but he also went after gypsies, gays and retarded/feeble minded. It's still not his religion though. It's his politics.

stevieray
07-23-2011, 02:22 PM
LMAO

Any Challenge to the points that I correctly made in my post, or does spitting at me just suffice?

oh the irony.

and frankie switches to victim mode.

....about as shocking as Amy Winehouse's death.

BucEyedPea
07-23-2011, 02:28 PM
link?

That's funny. I didn't get those from any internet site or link it was from general non-fiction reading.

So you can try history books on WWI. Get different ones for multiple viewpoints and include The Thousand Year War which is VERY eye opening. Get some by Ralph Raico. Read about the Sikes-Picot agreement. Get a book on the Herzl and his plan for Zionism whereby he went to every monarch in Europe who all rejected it even the RCC who claimed they had a right to the land too. You may find that in some Catholic literature. You might also get a few movies like Lawrence of Arabia ( or the book) and Exodus with Paul Newman and check out the pbs site for materials on Laurence of Arabia. You can also look up the Jewish Torah and a group called NETUREI KARTA. I have a link for these.

http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/
http://www.nkusa.org/


You might read, even if you just select a section of reading on Truman on how he was going to allow recognition to the indigenous people to the area just as FDR wanted. He said a group of men visited him twisting his arm on recognizing Israel instead. I don't remember if he regretted it or not.

ForeverChiefs58
07-23-2011, 02:29 PM
No because the semite people of the area both Muslim and Jew lived peacefully.

Let's not forget these are the same people who helped England and France defeat Germany in WWI with the promised payback, once the Ottomans were defeated, of self-rule in their own land.


Like Europe's Christian pogroms against Jews?

You have dropped out time for this to even be relevant. Go back to late 1800's with Theodor Herzl and track that movement as well as events during WWI with promises made by Britain and France, while intending to betray the local people all along, just because they were needed to bring down the Ottoman empire. Sikes-Picot agreement included.

Skipping pertinant history is intellectually dishonest.


That was blowback for leaving US military bases on their holy lands post PGWI, allowing women and children to die due to lack of medicine because of sanctions on Iraq.
Do these crimes by the west ever end either? No. Again, you leave out time frames.


Irrelevant to my points. Besides, Israel is not a Jewish theocracy...it claims to be a democracy.



I think most Muslims in the world would be happy, leave us alone if we'd stop killing their people, interfering in their govts doing things that would piss us all off too.

Your hatred biases you in the extreme. The problems between Christians and Muslims extend back over a thousand years. Meanwhile, jews got along better with Muslims than the Christian west until the west meddled in the ME.


So, if someone has been affected by it, and hates this islamic terrorism that is taking over such large numbers they are full of hatred?
I disagree with you on many issues.

Are you familiar with the history? Here you go for those that care:

Muhammed Amin al-Husseini [many spelling variations] was born in 1893 (or 1895), the son of the Mufti of Jerusalem and member of an esteemed, aristocratic family. The Husseinis were one of the richest and most powerful of all the rivalling clans in the Ottoman province known as the Judaean part of Palestine.

Amin al-Husseini studied religious law at al-Azhar University, Cairo, and attended the Istanbul School of Administration. In 1913 he went to Mecca on a pilgrimage, earning the honorary title of “Haj”. He voluntarily joined the Ottoman Turkish army in World War I but returned to Jerusalem in 1917 and expediently switched sides to aid the victorious British. He acquired the reputation as a violent, fanatical anti-Zionist zealot and was jailed by the British for instigating a 1920 Arab attack against Jews who were praying at the Western Wall.

The first Palestine High Commissioner. Sir Herbert Samuel arrived in Palestine on July 1, 1920. He was a weak administrator who was too ready to compromise and appease the extremist, nationalistic Arab minority led by Haj Amin al-Husseini. When the existing Arab Mufti of Jerusalem (religious leader) died in 1921, Samuels was influenced by anti-Zionist British officials on his staff. He pardoned al-Husseini and, in January 1922, appointed him as the new Mufti, and even invented a new title of Grand Mufti. He was simultaneously made President of a newly created Supreme Muslim Council. Al-Husseini thereby became the religious and political leader of the Arabs.

The appointment of the young al-Husseini as Mufti was a seminal event. Prior to his rise to power, there were active Arab factions supporting cooperative development of Palestine involving Arabs and Jews. But al-Husseini would have none of that; he was devoted to driving Jews out of Palestine, without compromise, even if it set back the Arabs 1000 years.

William Ziff, in his book “The Rape of Palestine,” summarizes:
•Implicated in the [1920] disturbances was a political adventurer named Haj Amin al Husseini. Haj Amin, was sentenced by a British court to fifteen years hard labor. Conveniently allowed to escape by the police, he was a fugitive in Syria. Shortly after, the British then allowed him to return to Palestine where, despite the opposition of the muslim High Council who regarded him as a hoodlum, Haj Amin was appointed by the British High Commissioner as Grand Mufti of Jerusalem for life. [P. 22]

Al-Husseini represented newly emerging proponents of militant, Palestinian Arab nationalism, a previously unknown concept. Once he was in power, he began a campaign of terror and intimidation against anyone opposed to his rule and policies. He killed Jews at every opportunity, but also eliminated Arabs who did not support his campaign of violence. Husseini was not willing to negotiate or make any kind of compromise for the sake of peace.

As a young man, al-Husseini worked with a native Jew, Abbady, who documented this comment:
•Remember, Abbady, this was and will remain an Arab land. We do not mind you natives of the country, but those alien invaders, the Zionists, will be massacred to the last man. We want no progress, no prosperity. Nothing but the sword will decide the fate of this country.

In 1929, major Arab riots were instigated against the Jews of Palestine. They began when al-Husseini falsely accused Jews of defiling and endangering local mosques, including al-Aqsa. The call went out to the Arab masses: “Izbah Al-Yahud!” ? “Slaughter the Jews!” After the killing of Jews in Hebron, the Mufti disseminated photographs of slaughtered Jews with the claim that the dead were Arabs killed by Jews.

In April, 1936 six prominent Arab leaders formed the Arab Higher Committee, with the Grand Mufti Haj Amin al-Husseini as head of the organization, joining forces to protest British support of Zionist progress in Palestine. In the same month, riots broke out in Jaffa commencing a three-year period of violence and civil strife in Palestine that is known as the Arab Revolt. The Arab Higher Committee led the campaign of terrorism against Jewish and British targets.

Using the turmoil of the Arab Revolt as cover, al-Husseini consolidated his control over the Palestinian Arabs with a campaign of murder against Jews and non-compliant Arabs, the recruitment of armed militias, and the raising of funds from around the Muslim world using anti-Jewish propaganda. In 1937 the Grand Mufti expressed his solidarity with Germany, asking the Nazi Third Reich to oppose establishment of a Jewish state, stop Jewish immigration to Palestine, and provide arms to the Arab population. Following an assassination attempt on the British Inspector-General of the Palestine Police Force and the murder by Arab extremists of Jews and moderate Arabs, the Arab Higher Committee was declared illegal by the British. The Grand Mufti lost his office of President of the Supreme muslim Council, his membership on the Waqf committee, and was forced into exile in Syria in 1937. The British deported the Arab mayor of Jerusalem along with other members of the Arab Higher Committee.

According to documentation from the Nuremberg and Eichmann trials, the Nazi Germany SS helped finance al-Husseini’s efforts in the 1936-39 revolt in Palestine. Adolf Eichmann actually visited Palestine and met with al-Husseini at that time and subsequently maintained regular contact with him later in Berlin.

In 1940, al-Husseini requested the Axis powers to acknowledge the Arab right:
•… to settle the question of Jewish elements in Palestine and other Arab countries in accordance with the national and racial interests of the Arabs and along the lines similar to those used to solve the Jewish question in Germany and Italy.

While in Baghdad, Syria al-Husseini aided the pro-Nazi revolt of 1941. He then spent the rest of World War II as Hitler’s special guest in Berlin, advocating the extermination of Jews in radio broadcasts back to the Middle East and recruiting Balkan Muslims for infamous SS “mountain divisions” that tried to wipe out Jewish communities throughout the region.

At the Nuremberg Trials, Eichmann’s deputy Dieter Wisliceny (subsequently executed as a war criminal) testified:
•The Mufti was one of the initiators of the systematic extermination of European Jewry and had been a collaborator and adviser of Eichmann and Himmler in the execution of this plan. … He was one of Eichmann’s best friends and had constantly incited him to accelerate the extermination measures. I heard him say, accompanied by Eichmann, he had visited incognito the gas chamber of Auschwitz.

With the collapse of Nazi Germany in 1945, the Mufti moved to Egypt where he was received as a national hero. After the war al-Husseini was indicted by Yugoslavia for war crimes, but escaped prosecution. The Mufti was never tried because the Allies were afraid of the storm in the Arab world if the hero of Arab nationalism was treated as a war criminal.

From Egypt al-Husseini was among the sponsors of the 1948 war against the new State of Israel. Spurned by the Jordanian monarch, who gave the position of Grand Mufti of Jerusalem to someone else, Haj Amin al-Husseini arranged King Abdullah’s assassination in 1951, while still living in exile in Egypt. King Tallal followed Abdullah as king of Jordan, and he refused to give permiss
ion to Amin al-Husseini to come into Jordanian Jerusalem. After one year, King Tallal was declared incompetent; the new King Hussein also refused to give al-Husseini permission to enter Jerusalem. King Hussein recognized that the former Grand Mufti would only stir up trouble and was a danger to peace in the region.

Haj Amin al-Husseini eventually died in exile in 1974. He never returned to Jerusalem after his 1937 departure. His place as leader of the radical, nationalist Palestinian Arabs was taken by his nephew Mohammed Abdel-Raouf Arafat As Qudwa al-Hussaeini, better known as Yasser Arafat. In August 2002, Arafat gave an interview in which he referred to “our hero al-Husseini” as a symbol of Palestinian Arab resistance.

BucEyedPea
07-23-2011, 02:36 PM
Yes I am familiar with history of that area since post 9/11 I picked up some books and even went down through past history to see who was on that land longest. It was just 50 years more for the Palestinians which is why I say both have a right to be on that land. I even used Jewish and Arab historical sources—one with a plug from someone at Harvard and John Hopkins University called the History of the Arab Peoples. I am not going to read a long post on this when you are too likely to have selected points for confirm your bias. Your hate is over the top, imo, more than others who don't like Muslims. I understand why based on your experience but still...

ForeverChiefs58
07-23-2011, 02:46 PM
That's funny. I didn't get those from any internet site or link it was from general non-fiction reading.

So you can try history books on WWI. Get different ones for multiple viewpoints and include The Thousand Year War which is VERY eye opening. Read about the Sikes-Picot agreement. Get a book on the Herzl and his plan for Zionism whereby he went to every monarch in Europe who all rejected it even the RCC who claimed they had a right to the land too. You may find that in some Catholic literature. You might also get a few movies like Lawrence of Arabia ( or the book) and Exodus with Paul Newman and check out the pbs site for materials on Laurence of Arabia. You can also look up the Jewish Torah and a group called NETUREI KARTA. I have a link for these.

http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/
http://www.nkusa.org/

It was tongue 'n cheek. I know the history very well my friend.

patteeu
07-23-2011, 02:57 PM
So nothing that any Christians have done before right now counts? How very convenient for anyone trying to validate their prejudices.

History may inform our prejudices, but only future events can confirm them.

BTW, the fact that you think a scoreboard based on future events will support our view shows that you share our prejudice even though you don't admit it.

ForeverChiefs58
07-23-2011, 03:08 PM
Yes I am familiar with history of that area since post 9/11 I picked up some books and even went down through past history to see who was on that land longest. It was just 50 years more for the Palestinians which is why I say both have a right to be on that land. I even used Jewish and Arab historical sources—one with a plug from someone at Harvard and John Hopkins University called the History of the Arab Peoples. I am not going to read a long post on this when you are too likely to have selected points for confirm your bias. Your hate is over the top, imo, more than others who don't like Muslims. I understand why based on your experience but still...

Ahhh. I am familiar with that area and its long history since I was a young boy. I am biased against evil, but I don't think I am unfair. If you are a sympathizer to nazis or muslim extremist or other hate groups you will find I am very biased. I would state that my hate is not over the top, but my will to confront such groups may very well be. My apologies if I came across that way to those that feel the same as I do.

You might also like William Ziff “The Rape of Palestine". Good read.

ForeverChiefs58
07-23-2011, 03:15 PM
History may inform our prejudices, but only future events can confirm them.

BTW, the fact that you think a scoreboard based on future events will support our view shows that you share our prejudice even though you don't admit it.

Nice Pat. I couldn't have said it better myself.

BucEyedPea
07-23-2011, 03:21 PM
Ahhh. I am familiar with that area and its long history since I was a young boy. I am biased against evil, but I don't think I am unfair. If you are a sympathizer to nazis or muslim extremist or other hate groups you will find I am very biased. I would state that my hate is not over the top, but my will to confront such groups may very well be. My apologies if I came across that way to those that feel the same as I do.

You might also like William Ziff “The Rape of Palestine". Good read.
That's why I don't want to deal with them except to buy their oil. You were in Africa right? Yeah, that puts you right there on their territory. I see that as no different than being the the midsts of cannibals of Papau New Guinea. Or similar to being mugged by someone who is black and thinking all blacks are like that.

Oh and btw, I don't have a strong pro or con stand regarding Muslims or Jews over there. You do. It's your side, including pat's that does therefore it can't be trusted. I doubt pat or you have read multiple viewpoints on the area. Bottom line though, I prefer neutrality. That right there makes me more objective than either you or pat from the start. If I have any bias, it's on having a less interventionist FP without permanent entangling alliances.

BucEyedPea
07-23-2011, 03:25 PM
Nice Pat. I couldn't have said it better myself.

In your opinion because you and him are on the same side.

ForeverChiefs58
07-23-2011, 04:01 PM
That's why I don't want to deal with them except to buy their oil. You were in Africa right? Yeah, that puts you right there on their territory. I see that as no different than being the the midsts of cannibals of Papau New Guinea.

Oh and btw, I don't have a strong pro or con stand regarding Muslims or Jews over there. You do. It's your side, including pat's that does therefore it can't be trusted. I doubt pat or you have read multiple viewpoints on the area. Bottom line though, I prefer neutrality. That right there makes me more objective than either you or pat.

I lived in Nairobi and in Israel. I know there are extremist in EVERY religion and region of the world. I listen and read all viewpoints. Someone is neutral until a side is clearly in the wrong. I don't care to try and rationalize or excuse purposely blowing up innocent women and children. There is none. How someone can be neutral to strapping bombs to a child is inhuman.

ForeverChiefs58
07-23-2011, 04:05 PM
In your opinion because you and him are on the same side.

Which side would that be, the side of human decency?

Frankie
07-23-2011, 04:24 PM
You should cover your face. He wasn't a Christian. You really thought he was?:facepalm:
:facepalm:

Did they make tin foil hats back in England? Did you bring yours with you?

Frankie
07-23-2011, 04:27 PM
Why can't you just answer? Yes, I am asking you with a straight face. You talk out of both sides of your face, so it is up in the air.
I am honostly asking you if you think it is wrong to call it Islamic terrorism. I cannot imagine and have never heard anyone try and dispute that.

Look, if you are too dumb or blind or lacking of reading ability to know that my answer has been clear in my posts, you'd find an idiotic way around a simple yes or no.

I swear you only hear your own voice when you talk to another person. :shake:

Frankie
07-23-2011, 04:30 PM
oh the irony.

and frankie switches to victim mode.

....about as shocking as Amy Winehouse's death.

What's this? Mr. Christian celebrating someone's death? How classy.

Meanwhile have you challenged any of the points I made in that post or are you happy just desperately deflecting?

mlyonsd
07-23-2011, 04:40 PM
:facepalm:
:facepalm:

Did they make tin foil hats back in England? Did you bring yours with you?You realize what you're claiming here means every Muslim terrorist act is done so with the understanding it completely reflects the teachings of Islam. You're sure you want to go that far?

stevieray
07-23-2011, 04:44 PM
What's this? Mr. Christian celebrating someone's death? How classy.

Meanwhile have you challenged any of the points I made in that post or are you happy just desperately deflecting?

ROFL

...you didn't make any points, or even refute mine, all you did is butt into a conversation and acted like you were ten years old.

...anytime you want to show me where Allah has a personal relationship with his followers, I'm all ears.

Frankie
07-23-2011, 04:45 PM
That was blowback for leaving US military bases on their holy lands post PGWI, allowing women and children to die due to lack of medicine because of sanctions on Iraq.
.......

I think most Muslims in the world would be happy, leave us alone if we'd stop killing their people, interfering in their govts doing things that would piss us all off too.
.......

Your hatred biases you in the extreme. The problems between Christians and Muslims extend back over a thousand years. Meanwhile, jews got along better with Muslims than the Christian west until the west meddled in the ME.

This
......

this
......

and this.

+

One observation about west's practice of sanctions. To use Iran as an example, it has been under economic sanctions by the West for years now. But they are the type of sanctions that hurt ruin typical Iranian's everyday life. Grocery is on the average about for or five times more expensive than here while the Tooman (Iranian monitory unit) has gone from 8 to a dollar (pre-revolution) to 1200+/- to a dollar now. Yet during the post election uprising of 2 years ago Germany and other Western states were selling the most cutting-edge-technology surveillance equipment to the Iranian government. The sanctions were not sacred there then.

LiveSteam
07-23-2011, 04:49 PM
Pic one Frankie

http://www.missilethreat.com/repository/imgLib/icbm%20comparison%20chart%20small%20labeled%20%20%20mda.jpg

Frankie
07-23-2011, 04:49 PM
Hitler was NOT Christian. My post about Grand Mufti Haj Amin al-Husseini and his muslim army being a killer of Jews before/after Hitler, and before Israel existed was in response to BEP.

Gee I'm not a follower of Mufti Haj Amin al-Husseini. Nor are the big majority of world Muslims who are nut radical nuts.

Arguing with you is hopeless. We have not even gone past making you understand the difference between nut jobs and sane folks.

LiveSteam
07-23-2011, 04:52 PM
I like this type myself Frankie

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a2/Ohio-class_submarine_launches_Trident_ICBMs_(artist_concept).jpg

Donger
07-23-2011, 04:53 PM
:facepalm:
:facepalm:

Did they make tin foil hats back in England? Did you bring yours with you?

Frankie, I'm a fucking historian. Hitler wasn't a Christian. You were, and I guess are still, wrong.

ForeverChiefs58
07-23-2011, 04:54 PM
This
......

this
......

and this.

+

One observation about west's practice of sanctions. To use Iran as an example, it has been under economic sanctions by the West for years now. But they are the type of sanctions that hurt ruin typical Iranian's everyday life. Grocery is on the average about for or five times more expensive than here while the Tooman (Iranian monitory unit) has gone from 8 to a dollar (pre-revolution) to 1200+/- to a dollar now. Yet during the post election uprising of 2 years ago Germany and other Western states were selling the most cutting-edge-technology surveillance equipment to the Iranian government. The sanctions were not sacred there then.


Yeah, blame the west for the sanctions and not the pompous leader who invoked them. Your inability to realize where the blame should fall reminds me of a child.

LiveSteam
07-23-2011, 04:56 PM
Look Frankie, A new Tonka toy.

http://www.trdefence.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/russian-icbm.jpg

Frankie
07-23-2011, 05:02 PM
So, if someone has been affected by it, and hates this islamic terrorism that is taking over such large numbers they are full of hatred?

You'd do a lot better if you didn't spend 23 hours of your 24 googling and posting reasons for your hatred.

The more you start threads like this and register countless repeating of essentially the same post, the more discredited and hard to believe your "personal story" becomes. Your posts have become a sorry diarrhea of diatribe rather than cerebral debate.

If your story is anything other than drama-queenery and you have psychological problems, this forum is not where you should seek resolutions to your them. There are professionals out there, your pastor (Rabbi?), your family, who can be a lot more helpful in your dealing with your rage.

listopencil
07-23-2011, 05:03 PM
Do you really believe Hitler, neo nazis or the KKK have recognition of Jesus Christ and Christianity?

Do people pick on you a lot in real life?


"Have recognition"? WTF are you even saying here?

Frankie
07-23-2011, 05:06 PM
I would state that my hate is not over the top, ....

Good first step. Admitting there is "hate" there.

I'm not being funny or sarcastic. I still want to believe that your emotions are actually based on a painful childhood experience.

mnchiefsguy
07-23-2011, 05:10 PM
That's why I don't want to deal with them except to buy their oil. You were in Africa right? Yeah, that puts you right there on their territory. I see that as no different than being the the midsts of cannibals of Papau New Guinea. Or similar to being mugged by someone who is black and thinking all blacks are like that.

Oh and btw, I don't have a strong pro or con stand regarding Muslims or Jews over there. You do. It's your side, including pat's that does therefore it can't be trusted. I doubt pat or you have read multiple viewpoints on the area. Bottom line though, I prefer neutrality. That right there makes me more objective than either you or pat from the start. If I have any bias, it's on having a less interventionist FP without permanent entangling alliances.

The probably with neutrality is that the US could declare neutrality tomorrow, abandon Israel, and the radical Islamic terrorists would still want to wipe us off the face of the earth. They have declared war on us, and they will not quit until they achieve complete victory. We are in the fight, so let's win it.

listopencil
07-23-2011, 05:20 PM
...cmon man, you've done a complete 180. You came into this thread arguing that the Biblical God wasn't available to man, therefore, just like Allah.

No, stevieray, you're full of shit and you are having a hard time keeping track of what you have already said. This particular discussion began with your comment:



....how do Muslims love Allah, as in have a relationship with him, when he is unable to make himself available to man?


I responded that you had made an interesting point, that Islam doesn't have a Christ figure to establish a personal relationship with God for its followers. I then went on to speculate that the relationship that Muslims have with God is similar to the relationship people had with God in the Old Testament.

You then tried to say that the prophets in the Bible established that personal relationship. I then asked you why you would think that the prophets in the Qur'an couldn't do the same thing. You never answered that question although I asked you more than once.

Looks like you have no answer so you are trying to accuse me of being dishonest. That's laughable. You're the one trying to muddy these waters. If you ever do come up with anything to say that addresses my question I'd be glad to hear it. I guess I won't hold my breath.

BucEyedPea
07-23-2011, 05:22 PM
The probably with neutrality is that the US could declare neutrality tomorrow, abandon Israel, and the radical Islamic terrorists would still want to wipe us off the face of the earth. They have declared war on us, and they will not quit until they achieve complete victory. We are in the fight, so let's win it.
We? Speak for yourself. Sorry certain demographics are in this fight and we got dragged into it beyond our support for just Israel because of Bush seniors actions.

Besides this kind of war can't be won conventionally. Terrorism is a war of attrition and that's what it has been doing to Israel wearing it down with people leaving. AQ is winning as it is by dragging us into different Muslim countries bankrupting us. Time for a new approach.

listopencil
07-23-2011, 05:28 PM
Frankie, I'm a ****ing historian. Hitler wasn't a Christian. You were, and I guess are still, wrong.


Donger- I would never call Hitler a Christian in the sense that he followed what I believe to be Christian ideals. But he did espouse Christianity in his speeches, just as many of these terrorists claim to be following Islam when they commit obvious Evil. You can dig up chunks of the Qur'an AND chunks of the Bible to support just about any action you decide to make. It's easy to twist the words of a sacred text for political gain or validation. Or to use those words to motivate people who are already downtrodden and angry.

stevieray
07-23-2011, 05:30 PM
No, stevieray, you're full of shit and you are having a hard time keeping track of what you have already said. This particular discussion began with your comment:




I responded that you had made an interesting point, that Islam doesn't have a Christ figure to establish a personal relationship with God for its followers. I then went on to speculate that the relationship that Muslims have with God is similar to the relationship people had with God in the Old Testament.

You then tried to say that the prophets in the Bible established that personal relationship. I then asked you why you would think that the prophets in the Qur'an couldn't do the same thing. You never answered that question although I asked you more than once.

Looks like you have no answer so you are trying to accuse me of being dishonest. That's laughable. You're the one trying to muddy these waters. If you ever do come up with anything to say that addresses my question I'd be glad to hear it. I guess I won't hold my breath.

..don't project your BS flip flop onto me. your reply is as dishonest as they come.

...for the third time show me where Allah has a personal realtionship with his followers.


...if you can't refute my original point. then just STFD & STFU.

mnchiefsguy
07-23-2011, 05:30 PM
We? Speak for yourself. Sorry certain demographics are in this fight and we got dragged into it beyond our support for just Israel because of Bush seniors actions.

Besides this kind of war can't be won conventionally. Terrorism is a war of attrition and that's what it has been doing to Israel wearing it down with people leaving. AQ is winning as it is by dragging us into different Muslim countries bankrupting us. Time for a new approach.

We....as in in the United States of America. You are an American aren't you? Like it or not, the US is in this conflict, so it is appropriate to say we. Do you honestly think neutrality is the fresh new approach that would get results? Neutrality would be viewed as a weakness, a license for the terrorists to step up their campaign of violence...after all, we are neutral, so no fear of military response. Got any other new approaches?

ForeverChiefs58
07-23-2011, 05:32 PM
Gee I'm not a follower of Mufti Haj Amin al-Husseini. Nor are the big majority of world Muslims who are nut radical nuts. [/B]
Arguing with you is hopeless. We have not even gone past making you understand the difference between nut jobs and sane folks.

You are wrong. You have stated that you do sympathize with his followers.
Yes, the majority of the muslim world (nuts or not) does still look at him as a hero.

listopencil
07-23-2011, 05:37 PM
..don't project your BS flip flop onto me. your reply is as dishonest as they come.

...for the third time show me where Allah has a personal realtionship with his followers.


...if you can't refute my original point. then just STFD & STFU.

For the third time tell me why prophets in the Bible can establish a personal relationship with God but prophets in the Qur'an can't. It's your point to make, not mine.

No flip flop, honestly I'm beginning to think you just don't read well.

ForeverChiefs58
07-23-2011, 05:40 PM
Frankie, I might have mixed you up with nodirecshun, did you support Yasser Arafat?

stevieray
07-23-2011, 05:45 PM
For the third time tell me why prophets in the Bible can establish a personal relationship with God but prophets in the Qur'an can't. It's your point to make, not mine.

No flip flop, honestly I'm beginning to think you just don't read well.

the prophets you deemed irrelevant to the discussion? the God you originally said wasn't available to man?

I and Islam have already told you. It is impossible, because Allah can't be known on a personal level...to claim so is considered blasphemous.

please prove otherwise.

ForeverChiefs58
07-23-2011, 05:49 PM
the prophets you deemed irrelevant to the discussion? the God you originally said wasn't available to man?

I and Islam have already told you. It is impossible, because Allah can't be known on a personal level...to claim so is considered blasphemous.

please prove otherwise.

You are right. That is why they can't even have a picture of Allah. It is, of course, punishable by death.

stevieray
07-23-2011, 05:51 PM
It is, of course, punishable by death.

shocking.

Donger
07-23-2011, 05:55 PM
Donger- I would never call Hitler a Christian in the sense that he followed what I believe to be Christian ideals. But he did espouse Christianity in his speeches, just as many of these terrorists claim to be following Islam when they commit obvious Evil. You can dig up chunks of the Qur'an AND chunks of the Bible to support just about any action you decide to make. It's easy to twist the words of a sacred text for political gain or validation. Or to use those words to motivate people who are already downtrodden and angry.

Hitler was a vociferous liar and used people, Christians/Catholics included, to gain power. Do you really think that he accepted Jesus Christ as his savior and that He died for his sins?

listopencil
07-23-2011, 06:03 PM
the prophets you deemed irrelevant to the discussion? the God you originally said wasn't available to man?

That's hilarious. Now you're just making shit up.

I and Islam have already told you. It is impossible, because Allah can't be known on a personal level...to claim so is considered blasphemous.

please prove otherwise.
“Truly in the heart there is a void that cannot be removed except with the company of Allah.

And in it there is a sadness that cannot be removed except with the happiness of knowing Allah and being true to Him.

And in it there is an emptiness that can not be filled except with love for Him and by turning to Him and always remembering Him.

And if a person were given all of the world and what is in it, it would not fill this emptiness.”

- ibn al Qayyim al Jawziyyah


Muhammad ibn Abu Bakr (more commonly known as Ibn Qayyim or Ibn Qayyim al-Jawziyyah) (1292-1350CE / 691 AH- 751 AH) was a famous Sunni (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunni) Islamic jurist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faqih), commentator (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tafsir) on the Qur'an (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qur%27an), astronomer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_astronomy), chemist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alchemy_and_chemistry_in_Islam), philosopher (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_philosophy), psychologist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_psychological_thought), scientist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_science) and theologian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalam). Although he is commonly referred to as "the scholar of the heart,"<sup class="Template-Fact" title="This claim needs references to reliable sources from February 2011" style="white-space:nowrap;">[citation needed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed)]</sup> given his extensive works pertaining to human behavior and ethics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_ethics),<sup id="cite_ref-4" class="reference">[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_Qayyim_Al-Jawziyya#cite_note-4)</sup> Ibn Qayyim's scholarship was focused on the sciences of Hadith (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science_of_hadith) and Fiqh (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiqh).

-snip-

Ibn Qayyim al-Jawziyyah's contributions to the Islamic library are extensive, and they particularly deal with the Qur'anic commentaries, and understanding and analysis of the prophetic traditions

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_Qayyim_Al-Jawziyya



That's from a Wiki article as I don't have much time to hang out on CP today. I'll go ahead and take this guy's word over yours though.

listopencil
07-23-2011, 06:04 PM
You are right. That is why they can't even have a picture of Allah. It is, of course, punishable by death.


Uh...yeah...that's considered idolatry. Look it up.

Frankie
07-23-2011, 06:04 PM
Pic one Frankie

http://www.missilethreat.com/repository/imgLib/icbm%20comparison%20chart%20small%20labeled%20%20%20mda.jpg

I like this type myself Frankie

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a2/Ohio-class_submarine_launches_Trident_ICBMs_(artist_concept).jpg

Look Frankie, A new Tonka toy.

http://www.trdefence.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/russian-icbm.jpg

Yep. I'm dealing with a moron whose mentality comes from video games.

Thanks for demonstrating that, dope. LMAO

listopencil
07-23-2011, 06:05 PM
Hitler was a vociferous liar and used people, Christians/Catholics included, to gain power. Do you really think that he accepted Jesus Christ as his savior and that He died for his sins?


There you go, Donger. Now take the next step. Apply that same rationale to terrorists who claim to be following Islam.

ForeverChiefs58
07-23-2011, 06:06 PM
Yep. I'm dealing with a moron whose mentality comes from video games.

Thanks for demonstrating that, dope. LMAO


Frankie, did you support Yasser Arafat?

Frankie
07-23-2011, 06:07 PM
Frankie, I'm a ****ing historian. Hitler wasn't a Christian. You were, and I guess are still, wrong.

The point we have made TOTALLY flew over your head, didn't it? :facepalm:

Frankie
07-23-2011, 06:08 PM
Yeah, blame the west for the sanctions and not the pompous leader who invoked them. Your inability to realize where the blame should fall reminds me of a child.

When you put a regime under sanction, do you target the people or the regime?

Frankie
07-23-2011, 06:10 PM
Donger- I would never call Hitler a Christian in the sense that he followed what I believe to be Christian ideals. But he did espouse Christianity in his speeches, just as many of these terrorists claim to be following Islam when they commit obvious Evil. You can dig up chunks of the Qur'an AND chunks of the Bible to support just about any action you decide to make. It's easy to twist the words of a sacred text for political gain or validation. Or to use those words to motivate people who are already downtrodden and angry.

THAT'S the point Donger.

LiveSteam
07-23-2011, 06:11 PM
Yep. I'm dealing with a moron whose mentality comes from video games.

Thanks for demonstrating that, dope. LMAO

Leave pac-man alone. Is nothing safe from you people.

http://picturesofpeices.weebly.com/uploads/6/8/8/1/6881832/5097915_orig.jpg

ForeverChiefs58
07-23-2011, 06:11 PM
When you put a regime under sanction, do you target the people or the regime?

The regime as much as you can. You also want to upset the people enough to change their vote or try one of those uprising things.

Did you support Yasser Arafat? and do you think muslims around the world supported him?

stevieray
07-23-2011, 06:14 PM
That's hilarious. Now you're just making shit up.


“Truly in the heart there is a void that cannot be removed except with the company of Allah.

And in it there is a sadness that cannot be removed except with the happiness of knowing Allah and being true to Him.

And in it there is an emptiness that can not be filled except with love for Him and by turning to Him and always remembering Him.

And if a person were given all of the world and what is in it, it would not fill this emptiness.”

- ibn al Qayyim al Jawziyyah


Muhammad ibn Abu Bakr (more commonly known as Ibn Qayyim or Ibn Qayyim al-Jawziyyah) (1292-1350CE / 691 AH- 751 AH) was a famous Sunni (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunni) Islamic jurist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faqih), commentator (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tafsir) on the Qur'an (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qur%27an), astronomer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_astronomy), chemist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alchemy_and_chemistry_in_Islam), philosopher (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_philosophy), psychologist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_psychological_thought), scientist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_science) and theologian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalam). Although he is commonly referred to as "the scholar of the heart,"<sup class="Template-Fact" title="This claim needs references to reliable sources from February 2011" style="white-space:nowrap;">[citation needed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed)]</sup> given his extensive works pertaining to human behavior and ethics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_ethics),<sup id="cite_ref-4" class="reference">[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_Qayyim_Al-Jawziyya#cite_note-4)</sup> Ibn Qayyim's scholarship was focused on the sciences of Hadith (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science_of_hadith) and Fiqh (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiqh).

-snip-

Ibn Qayyim al-Jawziyyah's contributions to the Islamic library are extensive, and they particularly deal with the Qur'anic commentaries, and understanding and analysis of the prophetic traditions

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_Qayyim_Al-Jawziyya



That's from a Wiki article as I don't have much time to hang out on CP today. I'll go ahead and take this guy's word over yours though.

Neither do I, but I'll expose your BS later.

Donger
07-23-2011, 06:16 PM
There you go, Donger. Now take the next step. Apply that same rationale to terrorists who claim to be following Islam.

I'm unaware of Hitler ever claiming that he was acting as a Christian with his acts, such as starting a world war, having Jews killed, etc. Are you?

Donger
07-23-2011, 06:18 PM
The point we have made TOTALLY flew over your head, didn't it? :facepalm:

What point is that, Frankie? You claimed that Hitler was a Christian. He was not.

Would you like to produce some evidence that backs your assertion, or just keep making a fool of yourself?

Frankie
07-23-2011, 06:18 PM
...for the third time show me where Allah has a personal realtionship with his followers.

WTH are you talking about?! Do you even read the backward gibberish you type? What "personal" relationship? Did the God of the OT go to bed with his followers? Did he sit at the table and told jokes? Did he lend them money or give them rides to the grocery store? "Personal relationship" is a man made phrase that has been hammered into your head every time you sat on a pew! Get real and debate with facts, man, not with superstition! :rolleyes:

Donger
07-23-2011, 06:20 PM
THAT'S the point Donger.

No, it really isn't.

Frankie
07-23-2011, 06:21 PM
You have stated that you do sympathize with his followers. I did? :eek: WHERE?!!!
Yes, the majority of the muslim world (nuts or not) does still look at him as a hero.Do you have documents to support that claim? This is what I'm talking about when I point out your emotional claims.

Frankie
07-23-2011, 06:23 PM
For the third time tell me why prophets in the Bible can establish a personal relationship with God but prophets in the Qur'an can't. It's your point to make, not mine.

He will never answer that. Because THERE IS no Stevieray answer to a smart question.

Frankie
07-23-2011, 06:23 PM
Frankie, I might have mixed you up with nodirecshun, did you support Yasser Arafat?

No.

Frankie
07-23-2011, 06:24 PM
the prophets you deemed irrelevant to the discussion? the God you originally said wasn't available to man?

I and Islam have already told you. It is impossible, because Allah can't be known on a personal level...to claim so is considered blasphemous.

please prove otherwise.

What did I tell ya? LMAO

Frankie
07-23-2011, 06:28 PM
You are right. That is why they can't even have a picture of Allah. It is, of course, punishable by death.You must have missed post 447. Here I'll post it again for you:

Muslims do not adhere to "God in flesh." Nor do they believe that God has a physical form. In the Muslim belief system God is shapeless (at least to man's limited understanding) and exists everywhere. The idea is that believing otherwise is the same as making "God" into an idol. It does not matter if you build a god with your hands or your mind. The end result is an idol.

Frankie
07-23-2011, 06:37 PM
The regime as much as you can. You also want to upset the people enough to change their vote or try one of those uprising things.Fine. So why would the west sell technology to the regime in the midst of the sanction?

Did you support Yasser Arafat? and do you think muslims around the world supported him?

I personally never supported him. I agreed with only some of his position in general regarding what Palestinians were going through. But he was never a hero of mine. I suppose I can say he gained more supporters among mainstream Muslims when he tried to act more like a statesman regarding the ME and less like a radical.

Frankie
07-23-2011, 06:37 PM
Neither do I, but I'll expose your BS later.

Waiting with baited breath.

ForeverChiefs58
07-23-2011, 07:27 PM
I did? :eek: WHERE?!!!
Do you have documents to support that claim? This is what I'm talking about when I point out your emotional claims.

I will try and make this as brief as I can, although I find it hard to believe with your background you don't already know this.

Haj Muhammed Amin al-Husseini was the president of the Supreme Muslim Council, the Arab Higher Committee and became the religious and political leader of the muslims. Everything really started with him. He started many "arab revolts" and riots. He was pure evil killing Jews and non-compliant Arabs every chance he got.

He joined Hitler and the third reich in the 1930's (Nazi Germany SS helped finance al-Husseini’s efforts in the 1936-39 revolt in Palestine) and spent most of WW2 as Hitler's special personal guest and advocating the extermination of Jews throughout the muslim world. He started the muslims infamous SS “mountain divisions” that wiped out Jewish communities and he even went to the gas chamber's of Auschwitz to watch them die in person.

He was one of the initiators of the systematic extermination of European Jews and had been a collaborator and adviser of Eichmann and Himmler in the execution of this plan. He was one of Eichmann’s best friends and had constantly incited him to accelerate the extermination measures.

With the collapse of Nazi Germany in 1945, the Mufti moved to Egypt where he was received as a national hero. After the war al-Husseini was indicted by Yugoslavia for war crimes, but escaped prosecution. The Mufti was never tried because the Allies were afraid of the storm in the Arab world if the hero of Arab nationalism was treated as a war criminal.

Of course he was among the big sponsors of the 1948 war against the new State of Israel.

This evil monster was replaced by his nephew Yasser Arafat. After the Sept. 11 attacks Arafat went on to praise his uncle and often referred to him as “our hero al-Husseini”, a symbol of Palestinian Arab resistance to the cheers of thousands.

To say he wasn't followed by a majority of muslims and radicals alike is ignorance of the facts.

ForeverChiefs58
07-23-2011, 07:31 PM
You must have missed post 447. Here I'll post it again for you:

I think that was his point. Christians can make it more personal such as seeing a picture of Jesus, having a cross with Him on it etc. Such things are considered idols in islam and strickly forbidden.