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HonestChieffan
03-19-2011, 03:08 PM
JERUSALEM – Palestinian militants in Gaza fired more than 50 mortar shells into Israel on Saturday, the heaviest barrage in two years, Israeli officials said, raising the prospect of a new Mideast flareup.

Also Saturday, Hamas police beat reporters and news photographers covering a rally in Gaza City, drawing a stiff condemnation from the reporters’ association.

Israel invaded Gaza two years ago to put a stop to daily rocket barrages by Gaza militants, and Saturday’s exchange showed how the conflict could quickly spiral out of control. Gaza’s Hamas rulers are thought to be trying to avoid another Israeli invasion, after the last one caused widespread damage, killed more than 1,400 and left the territory under blockade, but Hamas claimed responsibility for some of the mortar rounds.

A Hamas official was killed and four civilians were wounded when Israel hit back with tank fire and air strikes, said Gaza Health Ministry spokesman Adham Abu Salmia.

Israeli police spokesman Tamir Avtabi said Gaza militants fired 54 mortar shells at Israeli border communities within 15 minutes. He said two Israeli civilians were lightly wounded by shrapnel, and residents were advised to stay at home or in bomb shelters.

Hayim Yellin, head of the Eshkol region where the mortars exploded, said they were the same type as those intercepted last week on a cargo ship loaded with weapons Israel said were sent by Iran to Palestinian militants in the Gaza Strip.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110319/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_israel_palestinians

patteeu
03-19-2011, 03:29 PM
Frankie just jumped over a fire.

mikey23545
03-19-2011, 03:43 PM
"Israeli police spokesman Tamir Avtabi said Gaza militants fired 54 mortar shells at Israeli border communities within 15 minutes. He said two Israeli civilians were lightly wounded by shrapnel, and residents were advised to stay at home or in bomb shelters."


This is hardly worth passing out candy for...

Frankie
03-19-2011, 05:48 PM
Muslims attack Israel with heavy mortar barrage]

Frankie just jumped over a fire.

:eek:

OH MY GOD!!! You mean there's a conflict going on between Arabs and Israelis?!

WHEN DID THAT START?!!

ClevelandBronco
03-19-2011, 07:13 PM
:eek:

OH MY GOD!!! You mean there's a conflict going on between Arabs and Israelis?!

WHEN DID THAT START?!!

Well, this guy Abram, or Abraham, or Ibrahim had two sons...

Easy 6
03-19-2011, 08:14 PM
For the life of me, i'll never understand this issue.

The Jews are from that country, countless & sundry evidence points to this, they were mostly ran off by violence & many also left willingly in a hope of something better. Centuries later, a world body decided it was finally time for these people to have a true home again & so they went back.

That displaced Arabs who had also been there from the beginings of time & without a doubt in my mind i believe they have legit grievances that deserve to be recognized. But instead of recognizing the legitimate right of an entire people to return to their ancestral home, & resolving to settle their problems within the bounds of decency & law... they chose absolute resistance at any cost. It continues today. Yet this (atleast on the surface) is a struggle between two peoples.

Heres where i really start to not get it from the Arab & Persian side... to quote my sentence above 'its between two peoples'. Yet from the farthest reaches of Indonesia, to Iran, to Syria & Lebanon... indeed seemingly every person of the Islamic faith, Sunni, Shia, regime to regime, decade to decade, from one end of the globe to the other... hate the Jew as if they had taken their own land & killed their family. Indeed the only thing that seems to Unite the Muslim like none other is the Jew. The hatred crosses continents, borders, governments, religious sects, on & on i could go.

For decades, different Jewish leaders & American presidents have proposed concrete & good faith offers to Palestinian leaders, maybe not perfect, but undoubtedly good faith efforts at working up a fair deal, that at the least were firm starting points for real resolution. Time & time & time again ad nauseum, they were rebuffed or entered into only halfheartedly by the Palestinians, it was & still seems to be 'absolute victory or death'.

Its just a big, sick, world ending joke to me... these people want nothing more than a miniscule, teeny tiny strip of land where their ancestors first made their mark on the world... Muslim lands stretch far, Far, FAR away to the Jews east & west... yet spanning across all social,political & religious distinctions in the Muslim world... there remains this underlying hatred for a very small group of people, on a very small piece of land.

My deepest thoughts dont even come close to understanding it... the only unifying thread, the only reasoning that makes any sense i can find that runs through this story is, religion. An overriding, burning, seething hatred of a particular group of people by another, for no other reason than that they worship a different God.

As long as i see that kind of blind, irrational & cross borders hatred for one small group of people, on one small piece of land... i know who's back i've got.

BucEyedPea
03-19-2011, 09:03 PM
My deepest thoughts dont even come close to understanding it... the only unifying thread, the only reasoning that makes any sense i can find that runs through this story is, religion. An overriding, burning, seething hatred of a particular group of people by another, for no other reason than that they worship a different God.

As long as i see that kind of blind, irrational & cross borders hatred for one small group of people, on one small piece of land... i know who's back i've got.

It's political—not religious, because it's about the same thing that has caused most wars—a dispute over land. Don't be fooled by the rhetoric.
It's just happening to religious peoples both of whom are semitic....although most Israelis are actually secular with more atheists then devout followers.


The common denominator is the western intervention via the 5-western-nation controlled UN. An organization formed to end war but has now become the cause of more wars than ever before— 144 and counting. Oops! Make Obama's Libyan war 145. The same old thing still goes on today while both sides get money and aid. Figure that one out.

teedubya
03-19-2011, 09:08 PM
Why does this whole thing have a WW3 feel to it?

BucEyedPea
03-19-2011, 09:11 PM
Why does this whole thing have a WW3 feel to it?

Oh! I agree with you it does. I've said that early on during the Obama regime. Just like during the Great Depression—nothing like a war to take the people's attention off their own corrupt govt, heavily influenced by interventionist mercantilists which include banksters. The latter get to make even more money now too. Our govt has been utterly corrupted.

I mean when will it be Yemen and Bahrain?

Frankie
03-19-2011, 10:29 PM
Why does this whole thing have a WW3 feel to it?

It doesn't. Chilax dude.

BTW, I like your avatar.

mnchiefsguy
03-19-2011, 11:10 PM
The Muslims hate the Jews for who they are, period. It is in their religious DNA to hate all non-Muslims, and they demonstrate this time and time again. The radicals launch the mortars...and the moderates don't condemn them, rather, they just celebrate behind closed doors. This was an attack against a sovereign nation, and when Israel responds, Frankie and the like will be on here condemning Israel for defending itself, conveniently forgetting that it is Hamas and Hezbollah are the ones who cannot stand to let any of the Jews live, let only have a Jewish State.

Frankie
03-19-2011, 11:16 PM
The Muslims hate the Jews for who they are, period. It is in their religious DNA to hate all non-Muslims, and they demonstrate this time and time again.

No they don't. But they do hate absolute morons. If I were you I'd take my gullible, paranoid, ignorant ass somewhere safe and hide.

Go,... Go, man.... You are wasting time. I'll cover for you.

mnchiefsguy
03-19-2011, 11:39 PM
No they don't. But they do hate absolute morons. If I were you I'd take my gullible, paranoid, ignorant ass somewhere safe and hide.

Go,... Go, man.... You are wasting time. I'll cover for you.

Do you condemn these attacks then? I don't recall seeing that post you bigot. You are the moron who supports terrorists.

Frankie
03-19-2011, 11:42 PM
Do you condemn these attacks then? I don't recall seeing that post you bigot. You are the moron who supports terrorists.

You are losing time man. RUN!

mnchiefsguy
03-19-2011, 11:49 PM
You are losing time man. RUN!


You don't scare me terrorist bigot....I must really have you all riled up if you cannot even answer a simple straightforward question.

patteeu
03-19-2011, 11:53 PM
For the life of me, i'll never understand this issue.

The Jews are from that country, countless & sundry evidence points to this, they were mostly ran off by violence & many also left willingly in a hope of something better. Centuries later, a world body decided it was finally time for these people to have a true home again & so they went back.

That displaced Arabs who had also been there from the beginings of time & without a doubt in my mind i believe they have legit grievances that deserve to be recognized. But instead of recognizing the legitimate right of an entire people to return to their ancestral home, & resolving to settle their problems within the bounds of decency & law... they chose absolute resistance at any cost. It continues today. Yet this (atleast on the surface) is a struggle between two peoples.

Heres where i really start to not get it from the Arab & Persian side... to quote my sentence above 'its between two peoples'. Yet from the farthest reaches of Indonesia, to Iran, to Syria & Lebanon... indeed seemingly every person of the Islamic faith, Sunni, Shia, regime to regime, decade to decade, from one end of the globe to the other... hate the Jew as if they had taken their own land & killed their family. Indeed the only thing that seems to Unite the Muslim like none other is the Jew. The hatred crosses continents, borders, governments, religious sects, on & on i could go.

For decades, different Jewish leaders & American presidents have proposed concrete & good faith offers to Palestinian leaders, maybe not perfect, but undoubtedly good faith efforts at working up a fair deal, that at the least were firm starting points for real resolution. Time & time & time again ad nauseum, they were rebuffed or entered into only halfheartedly by the Palestinians, it was & still seems to be 'absolute victory or death'.

Its just a big, sick, world ending joke to me... these people want nothing more than a miniscule, teeny tiny strip of land where their ancestors first made their mark on the world... Muslim lands stretch far, Far, FAR away to the Jews east & west... yet spanning across all social,political & religious distinctions in the Muslim world... there remains this underlying hatred for a very small group of people, on a very small piece of land.

My deepest thoughts dont even come close to understanding it... the only unifying thread, the only reasoning that makes any sense i can find that runs through this story is, religion. An overriding, burning, seething hatred of a particular group of people by another, for no other reason than that they worship a different God.

As long as i see that kind of blind, irrational & cross borders hatred for one small group of people, on one small piece of land... i know who's back i've got.

Nice post.

Frankie
03-19-2011, 11:53 PM
You don't scare me terrorist bigot....I must really have you all riled up if you cannot even answer a simple straightforward question.

Countdown has started. Run man. I'm tellin' ya.

patteeu
03-19-2011, 11:55 PM
It's political—not religious, because it's about the same thing that has caused most wars—a dispute over land. Don't be fooled by the rhetoric.
It's just happening to religious peoples both of whom are semitic....although most Israelis are actually secular with more atheists then devout followers.


The common denominator is the western intervention via the 5-western-nation controlled UN. An organization formed to end war but has now become the cause of more wars than ever before— 144 and counting. Oops! Make Obama's Libyan war 145. The same old thing still goes on today while both sides get money and aid. Figure that one out.

Everything is political, but religion is what unites the the majority of the muslim world against Israel with such dark passion.

mnchiefsguy
03-19-2011, 11:56 PM
Everything is political, but religion is what unites the the majority of the muslim world against Israel with such dark passion.

Not according to the Jew hating terrorist loving bigot Frankie.

Frankie
03-20-2011, 12:00 AM
Not according to the Jew hating terrorist loving bigot Frankie.

99,...98,...97,...96,...

mnchiefsguy
03-20-2011, 12:03 AM
99,...98,...97,...96,...

Well, at least bigot terrorists can count backwards...hopefully your bomb will not go off before you get to zero.

Frankie
03-20-2011, 10:49 PM
Well, at least bigot terrorists can count backwards...hopefully your bomb will not go off before you get to zero.

...95,...94,...93,...92...

MagicHef
03-21-2011, 01:50 AM
99,...98,...97,...96,...

...95,...94,...93,...92...

Commas and ellipses? No spaces? That's an affront to humanity.

LOCOChief
03-21-2011, 08:35 AM
No they don't. But they do hate absolute morons. If I were you I'd take my gullible, paranoid, ignorant ass somewhere safe and hide.

Go,... Go, man.... You are wasting time. I'll cover for you.


Muslims do hate the Jews. Muslims persicute the Jews for the same reason that Satan does for they are one in the same.

You Frankie are a coward and weak person, and everyone who reads your crap knows who you side with.

Amnorix
03-21-2011, 10:10 AM
The Muslims hate the Jews for who they are, period. It is in their religious DNA to hate all non-Muslims, and they demonstrate this time and time again.

For what it's worth the old Ottoman Empire was more civil to the Jews than many of the European monarchies which went round after round of getting deeply in debt to Jews and then killing them or chasing them out of their country, in addition to the basic denials of rights like ownership of land etc.

Frankie
03-21-2011, 10:23 AM
Muslims do hate the Jews. Muslims persicute the Jews for the same reason that Satan does for they are one in the same.

You Frankie are a coward and weak person, and everyone who reads your crap knows who you side with.

And you are an uninformed schizoid proud of your ignorance. The world is the right balance I tells ya.

Frankie
03-21-2011, 10:25 AM
For what it's worth the old Ottoman Empire was more civil to the Jews than many of the European monarchies which went round after round of getting deeply in debt to Jews and then killing them or chasing them out of their country, in addition to the basic denials of rights like ownership of land etc.

Come on Amnorix. Don't educate the ignorant. I was having fun.

PARTY POOPER! :evil:

Garcia Bronco
03-21-2011, 10:55 AM
For the life of me, i'll never understand this issue.

The Jews are from that country, countless & sundry evidence points to this, they were mostly ran off by violence & many also left willingly in a hope of something better. Centuries later, a world body decided it was finally time for these people to have a true home again & so they went back.

That displaced Arabs who had also been there from the beginings of time & without a doubt in my mind i believe they have legit grievances that deserve to be recognized. But instead of recognizing the legitimate right of an entire people to return to their ancestral home, & resolving to settle their problems within the bounds of decency & law... they chose absolute resistance at any cost. It continues today. Yet this (atleast on the surface) is a struggle between two peoples.

Heres where i really start to not get it from the Arab & Persian side... to quote my sentence above 'its between two peoples'. Yet from the farthest reaches of Indonesia, to Iran, to Syria & Lebanon... indeed seemingly every person of the Islamic faith, Sunni, Shia, regime to regime, decade to decade, from one end of the globe to the other... hate the Jew as if they had taken their own land & killed their family. Indeed the only thing that seems to Unite the Muslim like none other is the Jew. The hatred crosses continents, borders, governments, religious sects, on & on i could go.

For decades, different Jewish leaders & American presidents have proposed concrete & good faith offers to Palestinian leaders, maybe not perfect, but undoubtedly good faith efforts at working up a fair deal, that at the least were firm starting points for real resolution. Time & time & time again ad nauseum, they were rebuffed or entered into only halfheartedly by the Palestinians, it was & still seems to be 'absolute victory or death'.

Its just a big, sick, world ending joke to me... these people want nothing more than a miniscule, teeny tiny strip of land where their ancestors first made their mark on the world... Muslim lands stretch far, Far, FAR away to the Jews east & west... yet spanning across all social,political & religious distinctions in the Muslim world... there remains this underlying hatred for a very small group of people, on a very small piece of land.

My deepest thoughts dont even come close to understanding it... the only unifying thread, the only reasoning that makes any sense i can find that runs through this story is, religion. An overriding, burning, seething hatred of a particular group of people by another, for no other reason than that they worship a different God.

As long as i see that kind of blind, irrational & cross borders hatred for one small group of people, on one small piece of land... i know who's back i've got.

Google Isaac and Ismail

mnchiefsguy
03-23-2011, 08:43 PM
Looks like Israel is fighting back:

http://www.rr.com/news/topic/article/rr/9000/37399989/Israel_retaliates_for_deadly_blast_rocket_attacks

ForeverChiefs58
03-24-2011, 04:11 PM
It's political—not religious, because it's about the same thing that has caused most wars—a dispute over land. Don't be fooled by the rhetoric.
It's just happening to religious peoples both of whom are semitic....although most Israelis are actually secular with more atheists then devout followers.


The common denominator is the western intervention via the 5-western-nation controlled UN. An organization formed to end war but has now become the cause of more wars than ever before— 144 and counting. Oops! Make Obama's Libyan war 145. The same old thing still goes on today while both sides get money and aid. Figure that one out.


The only problem with that is although there are 60 muslim countries, there is only 1 jewish.

vailpass
03-24-2011, 04:16 PM
Could we please put Israel and Palestine inside a bubble and let them fight it out one-on-one; winner take all, two countires enter-one country leaves thunderdome kind of thing?

From there we could move on up the bracket to Iran vs. Israel in a cage match. Boy that part of the world would get cleaned up some.

Not that the cowardly Palestinians would ever go for it any more than any of the others of their ilk in that part of the world. They need to hide behind women or churches and committ cowardly attacks.

But I'd sure like to see those two go at it for all the marbles.

petegz28
03-24-2011, 06:45 PM
For the life of me, i'll never understand this issue.

The Jews are from that country, countless & sundry evidence points to this, they were mostly ran off by violence & many also left willingly in a hope of something better. Centuries later, a world body decided it was finally time for these people to have a true home again & so they went back.

That displaced Arabs who had also been there from the beginings of time & without a doubt in my mind i believe they have legit grievances that deserve to be recognized. But instead of recognizing the legitimate right of an entire people to return to their ancestral home, & resolving to settle their problems within the bounds of decency & law... they chose absolute resistance at any cost. It continues today. Yet this (atleast on the surface) is a struggle between two peoples.

Heres where i really start to not get it from the Arab & Persian side... to quote my sentence above 'its between two peoples'. Yet from the farthest reaches of Indonesia, to Iran, to Syria & Lebanon... indeed seemingly every person of the Islamic faith, Sunni, Shia, regime to regime, decade to decade, from one end of the globe to the other... hate the Jew as if they had taken their own land & killed their family. Indeed the only thing that seems to Unite the Muslim like none other is the Jew. The hatred crosses continents, borders, governments, religious sects, on & on i could go.

For decades, different Jewish leaders & American presidents have proposed concrete & good faith offers to Palestinian leaders, maybe not perfect, but undoubtedly good faith efforts at working up a fair deal, that at the least were firm starting points for real resolution. Time & time & time again ad nauseum, they were rebuffed or entered into only halfheartedly by the Palestinians, it was & still seems to be 'absolute victory or death'.

Its just a big, sick, world ending joke to me... these people want nothing more than a miniscule, teeny tiny strip of land where their ancestors first made their mark on the world... Muslim lands stretch far, Far, FAR away to the Jews east & west... yet spanning across all social,political & religious distinctions in the Muslim world... there remains this underlying hatred for a very small group of people, on a very small piece of land.

My deepest thoughts dont even come close to understanding it... the only unifying thread, the only reasoning that makes any sense i can find that runs through this story is, religion. An overriding, burning, seething hatred of a particular group of people by another, for no other reason than that they worship a different God.

As long as i see that kind of blind, irrational & cross borders hatred for one small group of people, on one small piece of land... i know who's back i've got.

You hit the nail on the head, religion.

alnorth
03-24-2011, 07:00 PM
It doesn't. Chilax dude.

BTW, I like your avatar.

agreed. That is an awesome avatar. Kudos to you, teedubya

Frankie
03-24-2011, 08:53 PM
You hit the nail on the head, religion.
Religion is the gasoline. Land is the match. It is still a land dispute much more so than a religious one.

Frankie
03-24-2011, 08:55 PM
agreed. That is an awesome avatar. Kudos to you, teedubya

He changed it.

alnorth
03-24-2011, 09:08 PM
He changed it.

Ahh, ok. well, never mind on whatever you were looking at. I'm diggin' those cool stars.

petegz28
03-24-2011, 11:17 PM
Religion is the gasoline. Land is the match. It is still a land dispute much more so than a religious one.

Sorry, I tend to disagree. While land does indeed play a part, the hatred for the Jews by Muslims is driven be their religion more than anything. Thus the hatred for the Jews in countries well beyond Palestine.

Frankie
03-24-2011, 11:35 PM
Sorry, I tend to disagree. While land does indeed play a part, the hatred for the Jews by Muslims is driven be their religion more than anything. Thus the hatred for the Jews in countries well beyond Palestine.

Have you met any Israelis?

Direckshun
03-25-2011, 12:17 AM
For the life of me, i'll never understand this issue.

The Jews are from that country, countless & sundry evidence points to this, they were mostly ran off by violence & many also left willingly in a hope of something better. Centuries later, a world body decided it was finally time for these people to have a true home again & so they went back.

That displaced Arabs who had also been there from the beginings of time & without a doubt in my mind i believe they have legit grievances that deserve to be recognized. But instead of recognizing the legitimate right of an entire people to return to their ancestral home, & resolving to settle their problems within the bounds of decency & law... they chose absolute resistance at any cost. It continues today. Yet this (atleast on the surface) is a struggle between two peoples.

Heres where i really start to not get it from the Arab & Persian side... to quote my sentence above 'its between two peoples'. Yet from the farthest reaches of Indonesia, to Iran, to Syria & Lebanon... indeed seemingly every person of the Islamic faith, Sunni, Shia, regime to regime, decade to decade, from one end of the globe to the other... hate the Jew as if they had taken their own land & killed their family. Indeed the only thing that seems to Unite the Muslim like none other is the Jew. The hatred crosses continents, borders, governments, religious sects, on & on i could go.

For decades, different Jewish leaders & American presidents have proposed concrete & good faith offers to Palestinian leaders, maybe not perfect, but undoubtedly good faith efforts at working up a fair deal, that at the least were firm starting points for real resolution. Time & time & time again ad nauseum, they were rebuffed or entered into only halfheartedly by the Palestinians, it was & still seems to be 'absolute victory or death'.

Its just a big, sick, world ending joke to me... these people want nothing more than a miniscule, teeny tiny strip of land where their ancestors first made their mark on the world... Muslim lands stretch far, Far, FAR away to the Jews east & west... yet spanning across all social,political & religious distinctions in the Muslim world... there remains this underlying hatred for a very small group of people, on a very small piece of land.

My deepest thoughts dont even come close to understanding it... the only unifying thread, the only reasoning that makes any sense i can find that runs through this story is, religion. An overriding, burning, seething hatred of a particular group of people by another, for no other reason than that they worship a different God.

As long as i see that kind of blind, irrational & cross borders hatred for one small group of people, on one small piece of land... i know who's back i've got.

Just clicked to scan this thread, and ran across what has to be some of the most honest thoughts I've read on this subject in quite some time. Great post.

Not that I agree with it. I think you make two mistakes, largely, in your thinking: (1.) the Israelis have, at times, negotiated in good faith, but often times have negotiated in bad faith as well, and (2.) the Palestinians are largely a race of people right now who feel that their very existence is under seige by Israeli overlords who are trying to take their land.

The latter part is particularly important, because we all know what happens to ordinary people in extraordinary circumstances. They radicalize. They rally around people who are cynical tough talkers, not pragmatic dealmakers. It seems to run counter to our intuition, but this is what happens: when you feel under seige, you rush to whoever is doing the toughest talking and holding the biggest guns. In Palestine, it's Hamas.

As I've said before, Hamas is the most cynical organization on earth. They are not interested in what's best for their people. They are interested in consolidating and maintaining power, and they need Israeli aggression and the feeling of victimhood to inspire fear in Palestinians.

They've been very successful, but they've had more than enough help from the Israeli government, in particular under Benjamin Netanyahu. The settlements that Netanyahu continues to approve range all over what would traditionally be considered Palestinian land should a two-state solution have ever occur, and that eats away at future Palestinian land. Add in all the boom-bang stuff that occurs, and you have an extremely nervous Palestinian population that feels beseiged.

The settlements are, above all else, evidence of Netanyahu's bad faith. Anybody looking for a good faith solution to a two-state solution would not perpetrate the expansion of settlements which have continually eaten up Palestinian land since the UN created Isreal in the 60s.

My understanding is that you're largely correct in that Palestinians feel nothing but contempt for Israelis, but there's a political element to that that's radicalized them to the point where there are basically no moderates in Palestine left. As far as the Muslim world as a whole, there's a lot more tolerance of the Jewish people that is caricatured in our culture.

Muslims are not monolithic, they are a mixture of beliefs and politics. There is a large contingency of hatred for the Jewish people amongst the population, much of it political and some of it ignorant and religious. There's also widespread tolerance and pluralist amongst the more modern strands among them, but the powers that control the Middle East are a ways away from embracing modernity.

Egypt Iran is probably the clearest example. Egypt is moving towards democracy, and I don't think you'll find a government more indifferent to escalating conflict with Israel. Part of it is history, part of it is our influence in Egypt, and part of it is that the strands of anti-semetic sentiment make up only a part of society. The Muslim Brotherhood? Pah, they'll be lucky if they get seats in Parliament.

I don't mean to demean Israel in this, I just mean to provide the Palestinian perspective, since it's clearly missing in American society. Israel also has its kneejerk fears, and its fears feed into the Palestinian fears, which feed even moreso into Israeli fears. And so on.

This conflict will not be solved by out-mighting the other. An earnest seat at the table will absolutely have to happen, but it takes two parties in good faith. At this point, your best shot with that with the Palestinians is the PLO of the West Bank, not Hamas. As far as the Israeli side is concerned... well, we're probably the closest there is. I don't know if Netanyahu is.

stevieray
03-25-2011, 07:11 AM
I keep forgetting that the Palestinians built King Solomon's temple.

"Israeli overlords"....meanwhile the poor victims celebrate their deaths in the street.

tell us again how much you 'appreciate' it.

patteeu
03-25-2011, 07:22 AM
The settlements are, above all else, evidence of Netanyahu's bad faith. Anybody looking for a good faith solution to a two-state solution would not perpetrate the expansion of settlements which have continually eaten up Palestinian land since the UN created Isreal in the 60s.

No, they're the result of decades of palestinian bad faith.

Egypt Iran is probably the clearest example. Egypt is moving towards democracy, and I don't think you'll find a government more indifferent to escalating conflict with Israel. Part of it is history, part of it is our influence in Egypt, and part of it is that the strands of anti-semetic sentiment make up only a part of society. The Muslim Brotherhood? Pah, they'll be lucky if they get seats in Parliament.

Haha, good luck with that. The Muslim Brotherhood has something like a 20% following in Egypt and they are more organized than pretty much any other opposition group. If that doesn't translate into seats in Parliament, someone's doing something really wrong.

I don't mean to demean Israel in this, I just mean to provide the Palestinian perspective, since it's clearly missing in American society. Israel also has its kneejerk fears, and its fears feed into the Palestinian fears, which feed even moreso into Israeli fears. And so on.

This conflict will not be solved by out-mighting the other. An earnest seat at the table will absolutely have to happen, but it takes two parties in good faith. At this point, your best shot with that with the Palestinians is the PLO of the West Bank, not Hamas. As far as the Israeli side is concerned... well, we're probably the closest there is. I don't know if Netanyahu is.

As long as there are people like you in the west who will excuse palestinian radicalization and blame it on Israel, there's never going to be any reason for the palestinians to participate in good faith, because to do so would necessarily mean that they'd have to give up most of their hold out positions and settle for something close to the more-than-fair offers Israel has already made in the past.

Frankie
03-25-2011, 12:09 PM
Just clicked to scan this thread, and ran across what has to be some of the most honest thoughts I've read on this subject in quite some time. Great post.

Not that I agree with it. I think you make two mistakes, largely, in your thinking: (1.) the Israelis have, at times, negotiated in good faith, but often times have negotiated in bad faith as well, and (2.) the Palestinians are largely a race of people right now who feel that their very existence is under seige by Israeli overlords who are trying to take their land.

The latter part is particularly important, because we all know what happens to ordinary people in extraordinary circumstances. They radicalize. They rally around people who are cynical tough talkers, not pragmatic dealmakers. It seems to run counter to our intuition, but this is what happens: when you feel under seige, you rush to whoever is doing the toughest talking and holding the biggest guns. In Palestine, it's Hamas.

As I've said before, Hamas is the most cynical organization on earth. They are not interested in what's best for their people. They are interested in consolidating and maintaining power, and they need Israeli aggression and the feeling of victimhood to inspire fear in Palestinians.

They've been very successful, but they've had more than enough help from the Israeli government, in particular under Benjamin Netanyahu. The settlements that Netanyahu continues to approve range all over what would traditionally be considered Palestinian land should a two-state solution have ever occur, and that eats away at future Palestinian land. Add in all the boom-bang stuff that occurs, and you have an extremely nervous Palestinian population that feels beseiged.

The settlements are, above all else, evidence of Netanyahu's bad faith. Anybody looking for a good faith solution to a two-state solution would not perpetrate the expansion of settlements which have continually eaten up Palestinian land since the UN created Isreal in the 60s.

My understanding is that you're largely correct in that Palestinians feel nothing but contempt for Israelis, but there's a political element to that that's radicalized them to the point where there are basically no moderates in Palestine left. As far as the Muslim world as a whole, there's a lot more tolerance of the Jewish people that is caricatured in our culture.

Muslims are not monolithic, they are a mixture of beliefs and politics. There is a large contingency of hatred for the Jewish people amongst the population, much of it political and some of it ignorant and religious. There's also widespread tolerance and pluralist amongst the more modern strands among them, but the powers that control the Middle East are a ways away from embracing modernity.

Egypt Iran is probably the clearest example. Egypt is moving towards democracy, and I don't think you'll find a government more indifferent to escalating conflict with Israel. Part of it is history, part of it is our influence in Egypt, and part of it is that the strands of anti-semetic sentiment make up only a part of society. The Muslim Brotherhood? Pah, they'll be lucky if they get seats in Parliament.

I don't mean to demean Israel in this, I just mean to provide the Palestinian perspective, since it's clearly missing in American society. Israel also has its kneejerk fears, and its fears feed into the Palestinian fears, which feed even moreso into Israeli fears. And so on.

This conflict will not be solved by out-mighting the other. An earnest seat at the table will absolutely have to happen, but it takes two parties in good faith. At this point, your best shot with that with the Palestinians is the PLO of the West Bank, not Hamas. As far as the Israeli side is concerned... well, we're probably the closest there is. I don't know if Netanyahu is.

CONGRATULATIONS SIR! THE BEST POST EVER IN THE DC FORUM. AND THE MOST INFORMED AND CEREBRAL ABOUT THE ARAB/ISRAELI CONFLICT. :clap:

Every poster should read this before expressing an opinion about this situation.

Bravo. Rep.

Frankie
03-25-2011, 12:15 PM
I keep forgetting that the Palestinians built King Solomon's temple.

"Israeli overlords"....meanwhile the poor victims celebrate their deaths in the street.

tell us again how much you 'appreciate' it.

Direckshun's post was quite fair and balanced. Why are you trying to make it one sided, Stevie? Aren't there suffering families on both sides who observe the death of their loved ones from time to time?

vailpass
03-25-2011, 12:25 PM
Direckshun's post was quite fair and balanced. Why are you trying to make it one sided, Stevie? Aren't there suffering families on both sides who observe the death of their loved ones from time to time?

Your Delta Tau Ki name is "Jew Hater".

patteeu
03-25-2011, 12:28 PM
Haha, Direckshun, Frankie agrees with you.

Frankie
03-25-2011, 12:28 PM
No, they're the result of decades of palestinian bad faith.

Both sides have had lapses of good faith negotiations. The most recent seems to be Israel's:

http://www.neontommy.com/news/2011/01/israel-spurned-historic-palestinian-concession-massive-document-leak-revealed

Donger
03-25-2011, 12:29 PM
It is pretty simple. If the Palestinians really want peace, all their leaders need to do is recognize Israel's right to exist. Until they do that, I see no reason why Israel should make or agree to any peace initiatives.

Frankie
03-25-2011, 12:29 PM
Your Delta Tau Ki name is "Jew Hater".

Now let's hear from smart posters.

Donger
03-25-2011, 12:30 PM
Both sides have had lapses of good faith negotiations. The most recent seems to be Israel's:

http://www.neontommy.com/news/2011/01/israel-spurned-historic-palestinian-concession-massive-document-leak-revealed

Illegally-occupied?

Frankie
03-25-2011, 12:35 PM
Haha, Direckshun, Frankie agrees with you.

Not only do I agree with his post, but I vehemently support and confirm it. He said in one post what I have been trying to say here for years. Sadly
it seems that telling the truth rewards you with labels of "terrorist-supporter" and "Jew-hater" here.

If you are blowing off what Direcshun said so easily then, YOU are the one who supports bloodsheds in the region, Pat.

Frankie
03-25-2011, 12:36 PM
It is pretty simple. If the Palestinians really want peace, all their leaders need to do is recognize Israel's right to exist. Until they do that, I see no reason why Israel should make or agree to any peace initiatives.

WTF?! That has long been part of Palestinian concessions!

Donger
03-25-2011, 12:37 PM
WTF?! That has long been part of Palestinian concessions!

I don't believe that is the case at all.

patteeu
03-25-2011, 12:38 PM
Both sides have had lapses of good faith negotiations. The most recent seems to be Israel's:

http://www.neontommy.com/news/2011/01/israel-spurned-historic-palestinian-concession-massive-document-leak-revealed

You obviously don't understand what negotiating in good faith means. It doesn't mean that you accept every offer the other side makes. Besides, this offer didn't even come from the leadership of the palestinians, it came from the PA, an irrelevant opposition group.

patteeu
03-25-2011, 12:40 PM
Not only do I agree with his post, but I vehemently support and confirm it. He said in one post what I have been trying to say here for years. Sadly
it seems that telling the truth rewards you with labels of "terrorist-supporter" and "Jew-hater" here.

If you are blowing off what Direcshun said so easily then, YOU are the one who supports bloodsheds in the region, Pat.

I addressed Direckshun's post directly. I've been given no reason to believe that Direckshun finds it acceptable for palestinian terrorists to murder Jewish civilians, nor do I recall him making any excuses for it like you did.

Frankie
03-25-2011, 12:41 PM
I don't believe that is the case at all.

Once again it's all about Donger.

http://signsofthelastdays.com/archives/hamas-recognizes-israels-right-to-exist-and-the-vatican-blames-the-occupying-of-lands-for-most-of-the-problems-in-the-middle-east

http://israelipalestinian.procon.org/view.answers.php?questionID=000393

Donger
03-25-2011, 12:43 PM
Once again it's all about Donger.

http://signsofthelastdays.com/archives/hamas-recognizes-israels-right-to-exist-and-the-vatican-blames-the-occupying-of-lands-for-most-of-the-problems-in-the-middle-east

That's your evidence that recognizing Israel's right to exist "has long been part of Palestinian concessions!"?

Frankie
03-25-2011, 12:45 PM
I addressed Direckshun's post directly. I've been given no reason to believe that Direckshun finds it acceptable for palestinian terrorists to murder Jewish civilians, nor do I recall him making any excuses for it like you did.

Excuses no, rational analysis yes. The stuff going on there is a two way street. Yet you always see the Israeli side as victims because your Bible tells you so.

Donger
03-25-2011, 12:47 PM
Once again it's all about Donger.

And, what does that mean? You really didn't know that Hamas and the PA don't recognize Israel's right to exist?

Frankie
03-25-2011, 12:47 PM
I'm off folks. Life beckons. But I will be back to read all the reasons Direcshun is a terrorist supporting Jew hater.

Ta ta!

patteeu
03-25-2011, 12:50 PM
Excuses no, rational analysis yes. The stuff going on there is a two way street. Yet you always see the Israeli side as victims because your Bible tells you so.

Equating the cold blooded murder of an israeli family at the hands of palestinian terrorists with collateral damage caused by Israel during one of their justified retaliations against palestinian terrorists is the kind of excuse making I'm talking about. I think you're generally an alright guy, but this aspect of your character is deplorable.

The Mad Crapper
03-25-2011, 12:51 PM
I'm off folks. Life beckons. But I will be back to read all the reasons Direcshun is a terrorist supporting Jew hater.

Ta ta!

Taking the Burqa to dry cleaners?

BIG_DADDY
03-25-2011, 01:00 PM
I'm off folks. Life beckons. But I will be back to read all the reasons Direcshun is a terrorist supporting Jew hater.

Ta ta!

Don't leave Frankie, we all need someone to laugh at.

KC Dan
03-25-2011, 01:07 PM
Once again it's all about Donger.

http://signsofthelastdays.com/archives/hamas-recognizes-israels-right-to-exist-and-the-vatican-blames-the-occupying-of-lands-for-most-of-the-problems-in-the-middle-east

http://israelipalestinian.procon.org/view.answers.php?questionID=000393Then, it should be no issue for the PLO, Hamas or any other entity with a stake by stating the "Israel has the right to exist". The real problem here is with their "cons".

"Article (8) The Israeli existence in Palestine is a Zionist invasion with a colonial expansive base, and it is a natural ally to colonialism and international imperialism.

Article (9) Liberating Palestine and protecting its holy places is an Arab, religious and human obligation...

Article (12) Complete liberation of Palestine, and eradication of Zionist economic, political, military and cultural existence."


Please define the area that they state is "Palestine". I have been to Israel and stood//toured Jerusalem and the settlements and I can easily say that Israel will NEVER split up Jerasalem with anyone. It really isn't possible based upon geography and security. Unless you have seen how it "really" is, you're barking up a tree.

Direckshun
03-25-2011, 01:09 PM
No, they're the result of decades of palestinian bad faith.

Non sequitor.

The settlements are evidence of bad faith in negotiating for a two-state solution.

Whatever motives have driven Netanyahu and the Israeli government to pursue them doesn't change that.

I don't necessarily disagree that the Palestinians have had a history of bad faith themselves. Nobody's hands are clean in this. But the settlements are pure bad faith.

Haha, good luck with that. The Muslim Brotherhood has something like a 20% following in Egypt and they are more organized than pretty much any other opposition group. If that doesn't translate into seats in Parliament, someone's doing something really wrong.

You've made my point for me. Sure, I've undersold how influential the MB is in Egypt, but what's 20%?

If we had a proportional representation system in America rather than the winner-take-all system we have now, we could probably muster 20% support for an arch-Christian theocracy party. It would probably be incredibly organized, too. Palin/Huckabee, '012!

As long as there are people like you in the west who will excuse palestinian radicalization and blame it on Israel, there's never going to be any reason for the palestinians to participate in good faith, because to do so would necessarily mean that they'd have to give up most of their hold out positions and settle for something close to the more-than-fair offers Israel has already made in the past.

If you want to accuse me of sympathizing with Palestinians in this conflict, that's fair. If you want to accuse me of being biased in their favor, whatever, no skin off my sack.

But you're overplaying your hand, and you sound silly, when you say I'm "excusing radicalization" and "blame it on Israel." I'm not excusing squat.

There are ways of understanding the Gaza Strip and Palestinians as a whole that don't involve saying "Palestinians are bad people who hate teh Jooz!"

It involves psychology, and cause and effect. Palestinians are radicalized right now because of how they feel, which has been fomented in part because of their history, because of Israel's actions, and because of their chosen leadership that exploits them. To reduce this down to "who's fault is this?" is too simplistic and too emotional.

I don't know if you're willing to admit that you understand what I'm explaining. I think you're once again feigning like you can't comprehend what I'm saying in a vein attempt to stifle conversation. I'll let you prove me wrong in your next post.

vailpass
03-25-2011, 02:57 PM
I'm off folks. Life beckons. But I will be back to read all the reasons Direcshun is a terrorist supporting Jew hater.

Ta ta!

Gotta' go throw a few Jews down the well eh Frankie old boy?

stevieray
03-25-2011, 05:22 PM
Direckshun's post was quite fair and balanced. Why are you trying to make it one sided, Stevie? Aren't there suffering families on both sides who observe the death of their loved ones from time to time?

Palestinians handing out candy isn't observing the death of their own loved ones, it's a celebration over the death of Jews. ..please don't be brutally dishonest.

....defleckshun's post, like most of his, are nothing more than self aggrandizing ploys of BS to make him feel better about himself at the expense/misery of others.

....did the Palestinians build King Solomon's Temple?

go bowe
03-25-2011, 07:15 PM
Gotta' go throw a few Jews down the well eh Frankie old boy?eh, that would poison the water...

go bowe
03-25-2011, 07:16 PM
Non sequitor.

The settlements are evidence of bad faith in negotiating for a two-state solution.

Whatever motives have driven Netanyahu and the Israeli government to pursue them doesn't change that.

I don't necessarily disagree that the Palestinians have had a history of bad faith themselves. Nobody's hands are clean in this. But the settlements are pure bad faith.



You've made my point for me. Sure, I've undersold how influential the MB is in Egypt, but what's 20%?

If we had a proportional representation system in America rather than the winner-take-all system we have now, we could probably muster 20% support for an arch-Christian theocracy party. It would probably be incredibly organized, too. Palin/Huckabee, '012!



If you want to accuse me of sympathizing with Palestinians in this conflict, that's fair. If you want to accuse me of being biased in their favor, whatever, no skin off my sack.

But you're overplaying your hand, and you sound silly, when you say I'm "excusing radicalization" and "blame it on Israel." I'm not excusing squat.

There are ways of understanding the Gaza Strip and Palestinians as a whole that don't involve saying "Palestinians are bad people who hate teh Jooz!"

It involves psychology, and cause and effect. Palestinians are radicalized right now because of how they feel, which has been fomented in part because of their history, because of Israel's actions, and because of their chosen leadership that exploits them. To reduce this down to "who's fault is this?" is too simplistic and too emotional.

I don't know if you're willing to admit that you understand what I'm explaining. I think you're once again feigning like you can't comprehend what I'm saying in a vein attempt to stifle conversation. I'll let you prove me wrong in your next post.stifle conversation?

who would do such a thing?

Frankie
03-25-2011, 08:47 PM
Equating the cold blooded murder of an israeli family at the hands of palestinian terrorists with collateral damage caused by Israel during one of their justified retaliations against palestinian terrorists is the kind of excuse making I'm talking about. I think you're generally an alright guy, but this aspect of your character is deplorable.

Justified? depends on your definition. The world majority disagree with you.

Loss of any innocent person's life is deplorable, be it an Israeli citizen or Palestinian. I equate them because of that exactly.

You, on the other hand, conveniently put sexy labels like "collateral damage" on the killings of one side's innocent just so you won't have to wake up your sleeping conscience. Sorry Pat, I am 10X more disappointed in you than you are in me, and for far better reason.

mlyonsd
03-25-2011, 09:16 PM
Justified? depends on your definition. The world majority disagree with you.

Loss of any innocent person's life is deplorable, be it an Israeli citizen or Palestinian. I equate them because of that exactly.

You, on the other hand, conveniently put sexy labels like "collateral damage" on the killings of one side's innocent just so you won't have to wake up your sleeping conscience. Sorry Pat, I am 10X more disappointed in you than you are in me, and for far better reason.

You state it's a two way street but I never see you condemning Hamas or Palestine. If you truly believe in a two way street at some point you must claim Israel is justified in an action.

You pretend to play the middle man but always take one side.

See how easy this is?

Frankie
03-25-2011, 09:53 PM
You state it's a two way street but I never see you condemning Hamas or Palestine. If you truly believe in a two way street at some point you must claim Israel is justified in an action.

You pretend to play the middle man but always take one side.

See how easy this is?

What does MY condemnation solve? I have more than clearly stated in the past that I look at this issue with an open mind looking from both sides' points of view. In fact I have talked about Hamas and Hezbollah and the kind as groups with their own political agenda whom have successfully manipulated the situation to attract the Palestinians to their side. Bottom line is they also don't care as much about the regular-Yousef as they make him believe.

If I sound like I point out atrocities on the Israeli side more often it is because the same from the Palestinians get enough coverage on this forum. The general POV of this forum is quite unbalanced against the Palestinians and frankly a somewhat uninformed.

HonestChieffan
03-25-2011, 10:18 PM
Iranian arms shipment to Hamas disguised as humanitarian aid......Peace loving folks.

Read more at the Washington Examiner: http://washingtonexaminer.com/blogs/beltway-confidential/2011/03/israel-defense-force-video-exposes-iranian-arms-shipment-hamas-di?utm_source=feedburner+BeltwayConfidential&utm_medium=feed+Beltway+Confidential&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+BeltwayConfidential+%28Beltway+Confidential%29feed&utm_content=feed&utm_term=feed#ixzz1HfyHPE5x

mnchiefsguy
03-25-2011, 10:44 PM
What does MY condemnation solve? I have more than clearly stated in the past that I look at this issue with an open mind looking from both sides' points of view. In fact I have talked about Hamas and Hezbollah and the kind as groups with their own political agenda whom have successfully manipulated the situation to attract the Palestinians to their side. Bottom line is they also don't care as much about the regular-Yousef as they make him believe.

If I sound like I point out atrocities on the Israeli side more often it is because the same from the Palestinians get enough coverage on this forum. The general POV of this forum is quite unbalanced against the Palestinians and frankly a somewhat uninformed.

I have no idea what your condemnation would solve, since you have never condemned anything Hamas or Hezbollah have done. Just admit which side you are on, instead of lying and trying to appear to be neutral.

Frankie
03-26-2011, 12:12 AM
I have no idea what your condemnation would solve, since you have never condemned anything Hamas or Hezbollah have done. Just admit which side you are on, instead of lying and trying to appear to be neutral.

And you spare us your bogus humanitarian posture that's not based on any knowledge of that area but what your Bible tells you. I'd read something else too and educate myself if I were you.

Being ignorant is no way to go through life.

Frankie
03-26-2011, 12:18 AM
Iranian arms shipment to Hamas disguised as humanitarian aid......Peace loving folks.

It's impressive how naive you are. This stuff has been going on for a long time, Sherlock. It's one of many objections Iranians have toward their regime. You are too childlike in your thinking to separate people from regimes lording over them.

Like I said to your friend, ignorant is no way to go through life. :shake:

mnchiefsguy
03-26-2011, 12:53 AM
And you spare us your bogus humanitarian posture that's not based on any knowledge of that area but what your Bible tells you. I'd read something else too and educate myself if I were you.

Being ignorant is no way to go through life.

I have no problem with my position...I believe Israel has the right to exist, and to defend itself against terrorists like Hamas and Hezbollah. Israel is willing to live peaceably in the world with the Muslim..but the Muslims do not want to live peaceably with Israel. You can be a Muslim in Israel and practice your religion, have a job, have the freedom that any citizen of Israel has. Can a Jew do that in Syria? How about Jordan? Or even in Egypt? Not to mention places like an Iran.

patteeu
03-26-2011, 07:56 AM
Non sequitor.

The settlements are evidence of bad faith in negotiating for a two-state solution.

Whatever motives have driven Netanyahu and the Israeli government to pursue them doesn't change that.

I don't necessarily disagree that the Palestinians have had a history of bad faith themselves. Nobody's hands are clean in this. But the settlements are pure bad faith.

I don't see how you can say that the settlements indicate bad faith. When you don't have a negotiating partner, you carry on with life as it is, not as it could be under a negotiated settlement.

The territory that would make up each of the states in a two-state solution is negotiable, not predetermined. When the palestinians start negotiating in good faith for the first time, expansion or abandonment of the settlements will be an issue to be discussed. Israel has already shown that it's willing, under some circumstances, to abandon it's settlements and that was done unilaterally in Gaza. They would surely be willing to consider abandoning some of them in return for a lasting peace.

patteeu
03-26-2011, 08:02 AM
You've made my point for me. Sure, I've undersold how influential the MB is in Egypt, but what's 20%?

If we had a proportional representation system in America rather than the winner-take-all system we have now, we could probably muster 20% support for an arch-Christian theocracy party. It would probably be incredibly organized, too. Palin/Huckabee, '012!

Maybe you were exaggerating, but you said the MB would be lucky to get any seats in parliament, which is far from true. In fact, that 20% support figure will likely translate into substantially stronger representation due to the fact that the MB are so much more well organized and funded than other potential political groups. Liberals in the US only have a 20-30% following in the US but they've been in control of the WH and both houses of Congress for most of the past 2 years. The 20% is a base, not the entire group of people who could be persuaded to support the MB.

patteeu
03-26-2011, 08:08 AM
If you want to accuse me of sympathizing with Palestinians in this conflict, that's fair. If you want to accuse me of being biased in their favor, whatever, no skin off my sack.

But you're overplaying your hand, and you sound silly, when you say I'm "excusing radicalization" and "blame it on Israel." I'm not excusing squat.

There are ways of understanding the Gaza Strip and Palestinians as a whole that don't involve saying "Palestinians are bad people who hate teh Jooz!"

It involves psychology, and cause and effect. Palestinians are radicalized right now because of how they feel, which has been fomented in part because of their history, because of Israel's actions, and because of their chosen leadership that exploits them. To reduce this down to "who's fault is this?" is too simplistic and too emotional.

I don't know if you're willing to admit that you understand what I'm explaining. I think you're once again feigning like you can't comprehend what I'm saying in a vein attempt to stifle conversation. I'll let you prove me wrong in your next post.

I do think you're empathizing with the palestinians instead of being objective about the relative merits of their position/actions versus those of the Israelis. I'll withdraw the accusation that you're excusing their radicalization, but it seems to be a close call to me. There is no excuse for the behavior of the palestinians over the past 40+ years either at the negotiating table or in the streets. The Israelis have bent over backward to try to make peace work only to be answered with stones, rockets, and suicide vests. I think the overly emotional position is the one that looks at the poverty-stricken, necessarily-scrutinized, sometimes collaterally-damaged palestinians and tries to find reasons to avoid condemning them.

patteeu
03-26-2011, 08:14 AM
Justified? depends on your definition. The world majority disagree with you.

Loss of any innocent person's life is deplorable, be it an Israeli citizen or Palestinian. I equate them because of that exactly.

You, on the other hand, conveniently put sexy labels like "collateral damage" on the killings of one side's innocent just so you won't have to wake up your sleeping conscience. Sorry Pat, I am 10X more disappointed in you than you are in me, and for far better reason.

There's a reason we have different labels for different activities. "Premeditated murder", "suicide bombing", "self-defense", "collateral damage", etc. We use these labels to distinguish one type of action from another of very different character. Collateral damage is an unintended consequence of a justified action. Premeditated murder is not justified. To equate the two is to suggest that either they are both unjustified or that they are both justified. I'm not sure which of the two you believe, but either way it's not a positive reflection on you.

patteeu
03-26-2011, 08:16 AM
And you spare us your bogus humanitarian posture that's not based on any knowledge of that area but what your Bible tells you. I'd read something else too and educate myself if I were you.

Being ignorant is no way to go through life.

You're giving it a valiant effort though.

The Mad Crapper
03-26-2011, 08:19 AM
Can a Jew do that in Syria? How about Jordan? Or even in Egypt? Not to mention places like an Iran.

Can a Christian do that in Syria? How about Jordan? Or even in Egypt? Not to mention places like an Iran.

The Muslim Brotherhood is about to take over Egypt--- say goodbye to the Copts.

But Jews and Christians shouldn't feel special, muslims hate Hindu's and Budhists just as much.

http://www.rawa.org/statues.htm


****ing bastards destroy everything. They are a global cancer.

Frankie
03-26-2011, 11:49 AM
I have no problem with my position...I believe Israel has the right to exist, and to defend itself against terrorists like Hamas and Hezbollah. Israel is willing to live peaceably in the world with the Muslim..but the Muslims do not want to live peaceably with Israel. You can be a Muslim in Israel and practice your religion, have a job, have the freedom that any citizen of Israel has. Can a Jew do that in Syria? How about Jordan? Or even in Egypt? Not to mention places like an Iran.

Jews are well treated in Iran. Most of them consider themselves Iranian first and Jewish second. You don't know crap and react based on your uninformed imagination and archaic biblical beliefs.

However, in Israel a Muslim family cannot compete with a Jewish one for an apartment. Just like apartheid in South Africa.

HonestChieffan
03-26-2011, 12:02 PM
Jews are well treated in Iran. Most of them consider themselves Iranian first and Jewish second. You don't know crap and react based on your uninformed imagination and archaic biblical beliefs.

However, in Israel a Muslim family cannot compete with a Jewish one for an apartment. Just like apartheid in South Africa.

How do they manage the flood of immigration of people wanting to get into Iran?

go bowe
03-26-2011, 12:11 PM
How do they manage the flood of immigration of people wanting to get into Iran?very carefully...

HonestChieffan
03-26-2011, 12:19 PM
They should have some space available if enough people volunteer for the newest fad:
http://www.alarabiya.net/articles/2011/03/24/142817.html

(Al Arabiya)- Iranian authorities have licensed a website calling for “war,” including the use of volunteer suicide militants, against what its founders see as the “invasion” of Bahrain by troops from countries of the Gulf Cooperation Council (GCC).

Raheel, Arabic for “departure,” seeks to mobilize public opinion against the intervention of the GCC joint Peninsula Shield Force in Bahrain.

The website features Quranic verses that call for Jihad, or holy war, and backs those calls with photos and videos showing alleged human rights violations by the GCC troops. The website, however, does not show any GCC troops cracking down on civilians in the streets.

The website claims that a “redeemer” would wage war against Arab Gulf countries, Israel, and the United states, pointing out that this so-called “redeemer” has played a role in the popular uprisings of Tunisia, Egypt and Libya.

According to the website, the divine promise of the redeemer’s advent is materializing.

The website calls upon volunteers to engage in “martyrdom” attacks in Bahrain and reassures them that their data will be kept confidential and that they will be notified by email of the missions they are to carry.

According to the website, 1,858 have so far volunteered, 60% of them are from Iran, 18% from Bahrain, and the others from several countries in the region including Kuwait.

AustinChief
03-26-2011, 12:22 PM
Jews are well treated in Iran. Most of them consider themselves Iranian first and Jewish second. You don't know crap and react based on your uninformed imagination and archaic biblical beliefs.

However, in Israel a Muslim family cannot compete with a Jewish one for an apartment. Just like apartheid in South Africa.

Iran is unique compared to most of the Middle East. The fact that it isn't an ARAB country plays a big role in that.

BUT don't pretend that Jews in Iran have anywhere near the freedoms they would have in a truly democratic secular state.

Just because Iran isn't as repressive as Saudi Arabia doesn't mean Iran isn't still INCREDIBLY backwards in MANY MANY regards. Let's not be delusional.

Frankie
03-26-2011, 12:27 PM
How do they manage the flood of immigration of people wanting to get into Iran?

You are an idiot. I'm talking about a culture and you keep talking based on politics and your personal hatred.

go bowe
03-26-2011, 12:32 PM
You are an idiot. I'm talking about a culture and you keep talking based on politics and your personal hatred.well, politics and hatred are a culture too...

HonestChieffan
03-26-2011, 12:36 PM
You are an idiot. I'm talking about a culture and you keep talking based on politics and your personal hatred.


I know. I read and have some basic understanding. The small number of Jews who remain in Iran have been there a long time. They are totally committed to staying there. And they are tolerated.

Now, take that in hand and balance it with arms sales into gaza for the express purpose of killing Jews and the mullahs and political leadership who have stated time after time the goal of extermination.

Then you go jump over a trash bin on fire and tell us all is candy and cakes. The culture you so readily hide behind wants to exterminate another culture. Real swell, huh?


You are a fool. Do not underestimate people just because you disagree with them.

Frankie
03-26-2011, 12:38 PM
Then you go jump over a trash bin on fire and tell us all is candy and cakes. The culture you so readily hide behind wants to exterminate another culture.

Link please or STFU.

go bowe
03-26-2011, 12:40 PM
I know. I read and have some basic understanding. The small number of Jews who remain in Iran have been there a long time. They are totally committed to staying there. And they are tolerated.

Now, take that in hand and balance it with arms sales into gaza for the express purpose of killing Jews and the mullahs and political leadership who have stated time after time the goal of extermination.

Then you go jump over a trash bin on fire and tell us all is candy and cakes. The culture you so readily hide behind wants to exterminate another culture. Real swell, huh?


You are a fool. Do not underestimate people just because you disagree with them.sounds like good advice for you... :Poke:

go bowe
03-26-2011, 12:43 PM
I know. I read and have some basic understanding. The small number of Jews who remain in Iran have been there a long time. They are totally committed to staying there. And they are tolerated.

Now, take that in hand and balance it with arms sales into gaza for the express purpose of killing Jews and the mullahs and political leadership who have stated time after time the goal of extermination.

Then you go jump over a trash bin on fire and tell us all is candy and cakes. The culture you so readily hide behind wants to exterminate another culture. Real swell, huh?


You are a fool. Do not underestimate people just because you disagree with them.seriously, i don't think the culture of iran wants to do anything at all except be free of their islamist tyrants...

and while the current iranian rulers would clearly like to see israel destroyed, they don't represent the iranian culture...

at least i think that's what frankie is trying to say...

HonestChieffan
03-26-2011, 12:44 PM
sounds like good advice for you... :Poke:


For all of us from time to time?

HonestChieffan
03-26-2011, 12:49 PM
seriously, i don't think the culture of iran wants to do anything at all except be free of their islamist tyrants...

and while the current iranian rulers would clearly like to see israel destroyed, they don't represent the iranian culture...

at least i think that's what frankie is trying to say...

Thats what Frankie wants desperately to believe. I understand that. The reality is we see little or no evidence of these so called moderates who are peace loving and all that in any of the Islamist controlled countries. A few street protests and a lot of rhetoric for a few weeks does not demonstrate will or mass that can overthrow the leader they have. Do that and maybe people will buy in.

The culture is rapidly changing. Its been a long time since the culture Frankie points to had control. In time it will go the way of the Aztecs.

go bowe
03-26-2011, 01:22 PM
For all of us from time to time?of course...

go bowe
03-26-2011, 01:25 PM
Thats what Frankie wants desperately to believe. I understand that. The reality is we see little or no evidence of these so called moderates who are peace loving and all that in any of the Islamist controlled countries. A few street protests and a lot of rhetoric for a few weeks does not demonstrate will or mass that can overthrow the leader they have. Do that and maybe people will buy in.

The culture is rapidly changing. Its been a long time since the culture Frankie points to had control. In time it will go the way of the Aztecs.iran is not egypt...

there will be no overthrowing the ayatollahs so long as the republican guard exists...

they would have no compunction against shooting down anyone attempting to overthrow, hell even attempting to protest the current regime...

no weapons, no intervention, no chance of an overthrow...

zero chance...

edit: revolutionary guard or republican guard or revolting idiots guard or whatever the fuck they call themselves...

Frankie
03-26-2011, 01:30 PM
seriously, i don't think the culture of iran wants to do anything at all except be free of their islamist tyrants...

and while the current iranian rulers would clearly like to see israel destroyed, they don't represent the iranian culture...

at least i think that's what frankie is trying to say...

You sir are a man of intellect and understanding. :thumb:

go bowe
03-26-2011, 01:41 PM
You sir are a man of intellect and understanding. :thumb:aw shit...

you're gonna get me in trouble with the mad hatter, er i mean crapper...

Donger
03-26-2011, 03:02 PM
seriously, i don't think the culture of iran wants to do anything at all except be free of their islamist tyrants...

and while the current iranian rulers would clearly like to see israel destroyed, they don't represent the iranian culture...

at least i think that's what frankie is trying to say...

The Islamic tyrants that they welcomed back with open arms?

Let's not pretend that that didn't happen.

They went from one extreme to the other.

The Mad Crapper
03-26-2011, 03:20 PM
http://walloflies.org/

Frankie
03-26-2011, 04:16 PM
The Islamic tyrants that they welcomed back with open arms?

Let's not pretend that that didn't happen.

They went from one extreme to the other.

40 years ago all parameters were different. You keep bringing this up and it's really stupid.

go bowe
03-26-2011, 04:43 PM
40 years ago all parameters were different. You keep bringing this up and it's really stupid.
weren't the welcoming arms mostly those of the islamists and the people that became the republican guard?

as i recall, the majority did not welcome khomeni at all...

and to the extent that they did, it was a case of the lesser of two evils, the shah or the ayatollah (although it turned out that the ayatollah was by far the more evil of the choices)...

The Mad Crapper
03-26-2011, 04:43 PM
How to be a moonbat fakestinian apologist:

Tip #1 – Imagine that the Palestinians are fighting for a homeland that was taken away from them by the evil Jews.

That’s right. The foundation to becoming and remaining a faithful moonbat fakestinian enthusiast is to intoxicate yourself with the belief that the Palestinians actually once owned a homeland that was, in turn, stolen by the greedy and parasitic Jews.

While trying to convince yourself of this fantasy, ignore the historical fact that the Palestine Mandate was never a nation, let alone even a political entity of any kind. It was a "mandate" that was created by the British from the remnants of the Turkish Empire after World War I. 10% of it was given to the Jews and 90% was given to the Palestinian Arabs.

The key here is that you should never worry about where 90% of Palestine actually is. Just obsess with the miniscule tiny bit of land that the Israelis "occupy" now. It’s not important that this land was never officially "owned" by anyone in the first place.

You should also never reflect on whether all of your rage and hatred on this issue is proportional to the fact that Israel consists of 1% of the land in the Middle East.

Just get really angry that Israel is on territory that you think should be given to the Palestinians. And because you think this, then it automatically makes it right and historically correct.

You should never wonder how your moral indignation on this issue fits with your complete indifference to the fact that Jordan occupies 80% of the land that made up the original Palestine Mandate. So if you really cared about the Fakestinians, you would obviously be focusing your energy on protesting the crime being perpetrated by the Jordanians against the Palestinians. But the key here is that, well, deep down, you don’t really care about the Palestinians -– and neither should you. You must never admit this, but the Palestinians are only there for you to cynically exploit as pawns in your contributory effort to finish off what Adolph Hitler started.

That’s right. You know what I’m talking about. And even the Fakestinians are in on this with you. I mean, think about it: if the Palestinians themselves really cared about getting a homeland, don’t you think that they would be screaming about -- and fighting for -- the land that Jordan occupies? Don’t you think it is somewhat curious that Jordan has never, even for a second, been the target of a Palestine liberation movement?

Don’t you think it is a little bit curious that, in 1948, the Palestinian Arabs rejected an international resolution that would have established a Palestinian state, and instead focused all of their energies on destroying the new Jewish state?

You’re starting to get the picture now, right?

So be a smart and clever moonbat fakestinian apologist. The overall objective of your life should be facilitating the killing of Jews and destroying the state of Israel. The last thing you should be doing is worrying about the Palestinians. At the same time, however, in terms of what you actually say in public, you must always discuss the Middle East "problem" on the assumption that you are agonizing over the Palestinians’ plight and how their entire "homeland" somehow lies in tiny little Israel.

It is also a very good idea that you always refer to the myth of how the Jews "stole" the Palestinian "homeland" in passing, because then it makes its reality appear to be a given. You can’t believe how effective this ploy can be, especially in the midst of people who know nothing about Middle East history.

So believe in yourself and just do it!

Frankie
03-26-2011, 04:48 PM
weren't the welcoming arms mostly those of the islamists and the people that became the republican guard?

as i recall, the majority did not welcome khomeni at all...

and to the extent that they did, it was a case of the lesser of two evils, the shah or the ayatollah (although it turned out that the ayatollah was by far the more evil of the choices)...

IMO, the majority WAS excited about the ousting the immovable object that Shah's regime seemed to be. At that point ANY entity that would be the face of the revolution would have been welcome. Alas after the fruition of most revolutions the formerly united forces compete for the main power and the most ferocious wins out.

go bowe
03-26-2011, 05:03 PM
the jews stole the palestinian homeland is indeed a myth...

israel is part of what used to be an arab land, but not a homeland in any sense of the word...

the land was owned by palestinians, just like land is owned here...

but someone came and forced the locals to leave, at times even at gunpoint...

their land was stolen, not the "palestinians" not the "arabs" but the people who were living there for generations and who actually owned the land...

blogs like this always try to sneak a few modifiers in that totally change the argument and as honey would say it's a strawman...

there is no palestinian homeland and it doesn't exist in the tiny strip of land of israel (since it doesn't exist)...

the right of return refers to the people who owned land and lived there before 1948...

The Mad Crapper
03-26-2011, 05:07 PM
the land was owned by palestinians...

What are palestinians? What defines them or makes them unique in comparison to other Arabs like "Jordanians" or "Iraqi's"?

Do palestinians have there own language? When they "owned" the land, did they have a government? Who was president? What kind of money did they use? Did they even have a currency?

The Mad Crapper
03-26-2011, 05:08 PM
the right of return refers to the people who owned land and lived there before 1948...

They must be getting on in age, huh.

AustinChief
03-26-2011, 05:39 PM
the jews stole the palestinian homeland is indeed a myth...

israel is part of what used to be an arab land, but not a homeland in any sense of the word...

the land was owned by palestinians, just like land is owned here...

but someone came and forced the locals to leave, at times even at gunpoint...

their land was stolen, not the "palestinians" not the "arabs" but the people who were living there for generations and who actually owned the land...

blogs like this always try to sneak a few modifiers in that totally change the argument and as honey would say it's a strawman...

there is no palestinian homeland and it doesn't exist in the tiny strip of land of israel (since it doesn't exist)...

the right of return refers to the people who owned land and lived there before 1948...

one problem with this post... well over 90% of the land was not "owned" by anyone. Far and away the majority of Jewish settlement has occurred in previously unoccupied/unowned land.

The Palestinian position is that this unoccupied land is "theirs" as a people... I can't fathom ANY justification for this line of thought.

AustinChief
03-26-2011, 06:12 PM
Just to clarify and add my $.02 ... If the Arabs of the region had accepted the Peel Commissions partition plan or the UN partition... and THEN the Jews had "stolen" their land it would be a different story. But the fact is, due to religious and ethnic prejudice and hatred they did not... instead opting for violence. It obviously didn't work out in their favor.

Their certainly have been atrocities on both sides... but the main impetus for the conflict has been Arab hatred of Jews. To state otherwise one needs to be either willfully ignorant or frankly a liar.

Hog Farmer
03-26-2011, 07:40 PM
Just to clarify and add my $.02 ... If the Arabs of the region had accepted the Peel Commissions partition plan or the UN partition... and THEN the Jews had "stolen" their land it would be a different story. But the fact is, due to religious and ethnic prejudice and hatred they did not... instead opting for violence. It obviously didn't work out in their favor.

Their certainly have been atrocities on both sides... but the main impetus for the conflict has been Arab hatred of Jews. To state otherwise one needs to be either willfully ignorant or frankly a liar.

There :p


Spelling Bee chump of forth grsde

go bowe
03-26-2011, 07:51 PM
What are palestinians? What defines them or makes them unique in comparison to other Arabs like "Jordanians" or "Iraqi's"?

Do palestinians have there own language? When they "owned" the land, did they have a government? Who was president? What kind of money did they use? Did they even have a currency?i would surmise that palestinians are the people who lived in the british mandate of palestine, including what is now israel and the west bank and gaza (i don't remember how much of present day jordan was included in the mandate area)...

palestinians speak arabic...

i assume there was some sort of government under the mandate, but i don't think they had a president...

i would presume that they used some sort of currency...

but i don't see what all this has to do with ownership of land...

our founding fathers all owned land when we still a colony under british rule...

the people who lived in present day israel owned land while they were under british rule during the mandate period...

people own land regardless of the government, well except for venezuela cuba north korea and china...

Donger
03-26-2011, 07:52 PM
40 years ago all parameters were different. You keep bringing this up and it's really stupid.

Yeah, a dude calling himself Ayatollah shouldn't have clued anyone in.

Face it Frankie, your people welcomed him back with open arms.

go bowe
03-26-2011, 07:53 PM
They must be getting on in age, huh.hold on there bub...

i was born in 1948... :cuss: :cuss: :cuss:

Donger
03-26-2011, 07:53 PM
IMO, the majority WAS excited about the ousting the immovable object that Shah's regime seemed to be. At that point ANY entity that would be the face of the revolution would have been welcome. Alas after the fruition of most revolutions the formerly united forces compete for the main power and the most ferocious wins out.

Oh, good. Tacit admission that the Iranians welcomed him back.

go bowe
03-26-2011, 08:00 PM
one problem with this post... well over 90% of the land was not "owned" by anyone. Far and away the majority of Jewish settlement has occurred in previously unoccupied/unowned land.

The Palestinian position is that this unoccupied land is "theirs" as a people... I can't fathom ANY justification for this line of thought.i had never heard that before...

over 90% of the land was unoccupied/unowned?

you wouldn't happen to have a link for that, would you?

and i don't think that the land is anybody's "as a people"...

the land belonged to the individuals who owned it before being displaced...

go bowe
03-26-2011, 08:06 PM
Oh, good. Tacit admission that the Iranians welcomed him back.i think many iranians welcomed him back, for the reasons frankie set out, but certainly not all...

and after the ayatollah returned he and the islamists hijacked the revolution...

i don't see the islamic revolution as the fault, let alone the choice of the great majority of the iranian people...

go bowe
03-26-2011, 08:08 PM
Just to clarify and add my $.02 ... If the Arabs of the region had accepted the Peel Commissions partition plan or the UN partition... and THEN the Jews had "stolen" their land it would be a different story. But the fact is, due to religious and ethnic prejudice and hatred they did not... instead opting for violence. It obviously didn't work out in their favor.

Their certainly have been atrocities on both sides... but the main impetus for the conflict has been Arab hatred of Jews. To state otherwise one needs to be either willfully ignorant or frankly a liar.willfully ignorant?

that sounds like fun... PBJ PBJ PBJ

Donger
03-26-2011, 08:15 PM
i think many iranians welcomed him back, for the reasons frankie set out, but certainly not all...

and after the ayatollah returned he and the islamists hijacked the revolution...

i don't see the islamic revolution as the fault, let alone the choice of the great majority of the iranian people...

I do. And I've never claimed that ALL welcomed him back. But enough clearly did or the ones who did oppose him chose not to resist.

What was the referendum vote results on establishing an Islamic republic in Iran? Something like 90% approval?

The people who didn't want him back should have fought harder.

BTW, Frankie, when exactly did your family leave Iran?

AustinChief
03-26-2011, 08:17 PM
i had never heard that before...

over 90% of the land was unoccupied/unowned?

you wouldn't happen to have a link for that, would you?

and i don't think that the land is anybody's "as a people"...

the land belonged to the individuals who owned it before being displaced...

I'd have to go back and find it... but it's actually pretty obvious... the majority of land was "public" land ... you definitely had small concentrations of land ownership centered around communities, but that was the exception not the rule.

The problem with the "displaced" argument is that there was very very little displacement as you are defining it... about 50k as a result of the 1948 war and another 50k from the West Bank Barrier and settlements.

I can see some merit to giving special considerations to those cases... but unfortunately, even if Israel were to bend over backwards to make amends to this group... they would still be hated just as they have been for the last century.

go bowe
03-26-2011, 10:13 PM
I do. And I've never claimed that ALL welcomed him back. But enough clearly did or the ones who did oppose him chose not to resist.

What was the referendum vote results on establishing an Islamic republic in Iran? Something like 90% approval?

The people who didn't want him back should have fought harder.

BTW, Frankie, when exactly did your family leave Iran?i'm not so sure about that 90% vote...

election results tend to be what the ayatollah wants, chicago style...

go bowe
03-26-2011, 10:21 PM
I do. And I've never claimed that ALL welcomed him back. But enough clearly did or the ones who did oppose him chose not to resist.

What was the referendum vote results on establishing an Islamic republic in Iran? Something like 90% approval?

The people who didn't want him back should have fought harder.

BTW, Frankie, when exactly did your family leave Iran?it's hard not to agree with you on this...

but should have doesn't equal could have as far as controlling the outcome of the revolution...

i bet that a sizable portion of the iranian people wish now that they had fought harder or whatever it would have taken to keep the ayatollah from seizing absolute power in the first place...

you're right though that the ayatollah does have strong support amongst many iranians, to the misfortune of the iranian people as a whole and to the wider world...

go bowe
03-26-2011, 10:32 PM
I'd have to go back and find it... but it's actually pretty obvious... the majority of land was "public" land ... you definitely had small concentrations of land ownership centered around communities, but that was the exception not the rule.

The problem with the "displaced" argument is that there was very very little displacement as you are defining it... about 50k as a result of the 1948 war and another 50k from the West Bank Barrier and settlements.

I can see some merit to giving special considerations to those cases... but unfortunately, even if Israel were to bend over backwards to make amends to this group... they would still be hated just as they have been for the last century.i guess it does matter how you define it because wiki seems to think that 700 - 900 thousand arabs were displaced in the 48 war... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_refugee#Refugees_from_1948_War

that's an awful lot of arabs for small concentrations of land ownership...

as far as hate goes, sure it will take a generation if not more for the hate towards jews to subside, but being hated is a whole lot better than war and a lot less expensive than occupation...

AustinChief
03-26-2011, 11:17 PM
i guess it does matter how you define it because wiki seems to think that 700 - 900 thousand arabs were displaced in the 48 war... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_refugee#Refugees_from_1948_War

that's an awful lot of arabs for small concentrations of land ownership...

as far as hate goes, sure it will take a generation if not more for the hate towards jews to subside, but being hated is a whole lot better than war and a lot less expensive than occupation...

Regarding those figures...they are inflated by including people who left with no intent to return... The figures I was quoting were people directly relocated or left homeless by actions undertaken by Israel.

Regardless, I am not talking about small concentrations of land ownership in regard to % of the people but in regard to % of the land itself. Of course since almost 50% of Israel is uninhabitable my figure is inflated as well.

I have no problem with a right of return for those proving previous land ownership... as long as they are willing to accept citizenship in the territory they return to AND recognize the right for Israel to exist. Otherwise they are nothing but enemy combatants waiting to return to the battlefield.

The Mad Crapper
03-27-2011, 06:53 AM
i would surmise that palestinians are the people who lived in the british mandate of palestine

So the British came up with the name palestine? Before that, these people called themselves arabs, right?

the people who lived in present day israel owned land while they were under british rule during the mandate period...

How did they lose it?

Millions of indiginous people were displaced during and after WW2. Are you suggesting we go back to the national geographical lines of demarcation pre-WW2?

go bowe
03-27-2011, 12:44 PM
Regarding those figures...they are inflated by including people who left with no intent to return... The figures I was quoting were people directly relocated or left homeless by actions undertaken by Israel.

Regardless, I am not talking about small concentrations of land ownership in regard to % of the people but in regard to % of the land itself. Of course since almost 50% of Israel is uninhabitable my figure is inflated as well.

I have no problem with a right of return for those proving previous land ownership... as long as they are willing to accept citizenship in the territory they return to AND recognize the right for Israel to exist. Otherwise they are nothing but enemy combatants waiting to return to the battlefield.the problem with even a limited right to return is that the jewish state would soon find itself an arab-majority state if you give citizenship to returning arabs...

that's the same reason israel doesn't go ahead and annex the west bank...

go bowe
03-27-2011, 12:52 PM
So the British came up with the name palestine? Before that, these people called themselves arabs, right?



How did they lose it?

Millions of indiginous people were displaced during and after WW2. Are you suggesting we go back to the national geographical lines of demarcation pre-WW2?hell, pete, i can't remember when they started calling it palestine...

isn't palestine the name of the holy land in the bible or something?

redrawing national boundaries in the former colonies of africa and the me seems like a good idea since the arbitrary lines drawn by the colonial powers usually separated tribes and other national groups so as to diminish their power...

of course, re-aligning the existing national borders in those areas is politically impossible at this point...

AustinChief
03-27-2011, 01:08 PM
the problem with even a limited right to return is that the jewish state would soon find itself an arab-majority state if you give citizenship to returning arabs...

that's the same reason israel doesn't go ahead and annex the west bank...

There are 5.7 million jews in Israel and approximately 2 million non-jews.. even if ALL of them were arabs then you would need to allow 3.7 million arabs to return to Israel proper to shift the majority. Even if you annex the West Bank , that's only another 1.5 million arabs. Add in Gaza and you get another 1.5 million. I assume we aren't talking about Gaza and the West Bank though... so the figure is still 3.7 million. I just can't see 3.7 million palestinians being able to assert a legal right to return under the conditions I laid out.

I'm of the opinion that if you left of your own accord... then tough luck bucko.

AustinChief
03-27-2011, 01:15 PM
hell, pete, i can't remember when they started calling it palestine...

isn't palestine the name of the holy land in the bible or something?


The word itself derives from “Plesheth”, a name that appears frequently in the Bible and has come into English as “Philistine”. Plesheth, (root palash) was a general term meaning rolling or migratory. This referred to the Philistine’s invasion and conquest of the coast from the sea. The Philistines were not Arabs nor even Semites, they were most closely related to the Greeks originating from Asia Minor and Greek localities. They did not speak Arabic. They had no connection, ethnic, linguistic or historical with Arabia or Arabs.

The Philistines reached the southern coast of Israel in several waves. One group arrived in the pre-patriarchal period and settled south of Beersheba in Gerar where they came into conflict with Abraham, Isaac and Ishmael. Another group, coming from Crete after being repulsed from an attempted invasion of Egypt by Rameses III in 1194 BCE, seized the southern coastal area, where they founded five settlements (Gaza, Ascalon, Ashdod, Ekron and Gat). In the Persian and Greek periods, foreign settlers – chiefly from the Mediterranean islands – overran the Philistine districts.

From the fifth century BC, following the historian Herodotus, Greeks called the eastern coast of the Mediterranean “the Philistine Syria” using the Greek language form of the name. In AD 135, after putting down the Bar Kochba revolt, the second major Jewish revolt against Rome, the Emperor Hadrian wanted to blot out the name of the Roman “Provincia Judaea” and so renamed it “Provincia Syria Palaestina”, the Latin version of the Greek name and the first use of the name as an administrative unit. The name “Provincia Syria Palaestina” was later shortened to Palaestina, from which the modern, anglicized “Palestine” is derived.

This remained the situation until the end of the fourth century, when in the wake of a general imperial reorganization Palestine became three Palestines: First, Second, and Third. This configuration is believed to have persisted into the seventh century, the time of the Persian and Muslim conquests.

The Christian Crusaders employed the word Palestine to refer to the general region of the “three Palestines.” After the fall of the crusader kingdom, Palestine was no longer an official designation. The name, however, continued to be used informally for the lands on both sides of the Jordan River. The Ottoman Turks, who were non-Arabs but religious Muslims, ruled the area for 400 years (1517-1917). Under Ottoman rule, the Palestine region was attached administratively to the province of Damascus and ruled from Istanbul. The name Palestine was revived after the fall of the Ottoman Empire in World War I and applied to the territory in this region that was placed under the British Mandate for Palestine.

OH great.. now the Greeks are going to stake their claim to the region! After all, it is named after them. :P

The Mad Crapper
03-27-2011, 01:21 PM
isn't palestine the name of the holy land in the bible or something?


That's right. They weren't muslims living there, either. Somebody should tell Hamas that.

The Mad Crapper
03-27-2011, 01:22 PM
OH great.. now the Greeks are going to stake their claim to the region! After all, it is named after them. :P

Never mind the Greeks, what about the Ottoman Empire? Turkey would get all the oil in Iran and Saudi Arabia. LMAO

go bowe
03-27-2011, 01:26 PM
There are 5.7 million jews in Israel and approximately 2 million non-jews.. even if ALL of them were arabs then you would need to allow 3.7 million arabs to return to Israel proper to shift the majority. Even if you annex the West Bank , that's only another 1.5 million arabs. Add in Gaza and you get another 1.5 million. I assume we aren't talking about Gaza and the West Bank though... so the figure is still 3.7 million. I just can't see 3.7 million palestinians being able to assert a legal right to return under the conditions I laid out.

I'm of the opinion that if you left of your own accord... then tough luck bucko.refugees flee wars all the time...

does that mean they lose all their rights of ownership of their land?

most refugees want to return to their homes but only after hostilities have ceased, but they can't even do it then because of israel's policies...

i guess i'm saying that people forced to leave their homes in wartime do not leave of their own "accord" and it shouldn't be tough luck for them at all...

although being forced to flee your home sounds like enough tough luck already...

AustinChief
03-27-2011, 01:29 PM
That's right. They weren't muslims living there, either. Somebody should tell Hamas that.

Well, that's not exactly fair since Islam didn't even exist until after 630AD but what is more important... it wasn't historically an ARAB land. So, if you want to pick nits... where is the "right of return" for the people who were there before the Arabs invaded?

go bowe
03-27-2011, 01:31 PM
OH great.. now the Greeks are going to stake their claim to the region! After all, it is named after them. :Pthanks for the history of the name, good read...

as far as the greeks staking a claim, LMAO LMAO LMAO

go bowe
03-27-2011, 01:34 PM
Never mind the Greeks, what about the Ottoman Empire? Turkey would get all the oil in Iran and Saudi Arabia. LMAOottoman empire?

didn't they lose ww1?

AustinChief
03-27-2011, 01:38 PM
refugees flee wars all the time...

does that mean they lose all their rights of ownership of their land?

most refugees want to return to their homes but only after hostilities have ceased, but they can't even do it then because of israel's policies...

i guess i'm saying that people forced to leave their homes in wartime do not leave of their own "accord" and it shouldn't be tough luck for them at all...

although being forced to flee your home sounds like enough tough luck already...

It depends on how and why you left and if you intended to return when you did. There is CONSIDERABLE debate on this topic. One theory is that many left with no intention of returning to a state ruled by Jews and only wanted to return when the neighboring states refused to grant them citizenship. Another theory is that they were coerced to leave by Arab leaders who promised them a quick victory in 1948 and that they could return to a jew-free Palestine when it was done. In these two case... I am firmly in the "fuck 'em" camp. Now, if you left because an Israeli tank just bulldozed your house... I am quite a bit more sympathetic.

However, I do NOT support the rights of descendants. If you go down that rabbit hole... you could easily say that the Arabs stole the land they had from the Jews and Christians, who likely stole it from so and so .. etc etc... I might be willing to compromise and give the right to a single generation removed. After that, you simply have to draw a line somewhere.

go bowe
03-27-2011, 01:44 PM
Well, that's not exactly fair since Islam didn't even exist until after 630AD but what is more important... it wasn't historically an ARAB land. So, if you want to pick nits... where is the "right of return" for the people who were there before the Arabs invaded?hmmmm... rights of residents before arab occupation some 1,300 years ago as compared to traceable ownership rights from some 60 years ago...

(nitpicking alert) not the same...

but after looking at the population numbers you provided, it looks as if it might take a generation or two for the arabs to gain a majority unless the west bank is annexed, which would likely make it happen somewhat sooner...

The Mad Crapper
03-27-2011, 02:14 PM
hmmmm... rights of residents before arab occupation some 1,300 years ago as compared to traceable ownership rights from some 60 years ago...

...

Traceable? They have a deed?

Hey look, to show how absurd all of this is, let's take this to it's endgame, let's say everything the "palestinians" claim is true and they are granted what they want the Jews all leave and Israel is theres.

What do you think they are going to do with it? Turn it into another dysfunctional arab shithole?

Frankie
03-27-2011, 02:39 PM
Just to clarify and add my $.02 ... If the Arabs of the region had accepted the Peel Commissions partition plan or the UN partition... and THEN the Jews had "stolen" their land it would be a different story. But the fact is, due to religious and ethnic prejudice and hatred they did not... instead opting for violence. It obviously didn't work out in their favor.

Their certainly have been atrocities on both sides... but the main impetus for the conflict has been Arab hatred of Jews. To state otherwise one needs to be either willfully ignorant or frankly a liar.

AC, my mom owned and operated a school back in Tehran. Among the summer school daycare kids were a few Israeli kids, about 5 years old. Two of them I remember by name, Doran and Gilad, the rest by face. You should have been there to talk to them and hear the most hateful, racial words they used describing Arabs. If you think a kid brought up in a KKK family here learns to talk bad about blacks, you should have heard these kids. And they were children of diplomats. Assuming that the 'hatred' and the teaching of it is a one way street is, with all due respect, a sure way of fooling yourself.

I'm totally against practice of hatred of any kind. But at least one should be fair in condemning both sides.

Frankie
03-27-2011, 02:42 PM
40 years ago all parameters were different. You keep bringing this up and it's really stupid.

Of course this post merited a neg rep with the message "Monkey boy!" from our resident brainless racist, Sad Crap.

Pathetic.

AustinChief
03-27-2011, 02:45 PM
AC, my mom owned and operated a school back in Tehran. Among the summer school daycare kids were a few Israeli kids, about 5 years old. Two of them I remember by name, Doran and Gilad, the rest by face. You should have been there to talk to them and here the most hateful, racial words they used describing Arabs. If you think a kid brought up in a KKK family here learns to talk bad about blacks, you should have heard these kids. And they were children of diplomats. Assuming that the 'hatred' and the teaching of it is a one way street is, with all due respect, a sure way of fooling yourself.

I'm totally against practice of hatred of any kind. But at least one should be fair in condemning both sides.

I'm absolutely certain you are correct, there is hatred and prejudice on both sides... but the fact is Jewish hate violence on Arabs is SIGNIFICANTLY less then the reverse. That may have not been the case 40-80 years ago but it certainly is now.

Hatred and prejudice sucks regardless... but ACTING upon it is even worse.

Frankie
03-27-2011, 03:33 PM
I'm absolutely certain you are correct, there is hatred and prejudice on both sides... but the fact is Jewish hate violence on Arabs is SIGNIFICANTLY less then the reverse. That may have not been the case 40-80 years ago but it certainly is now.

Hatred and prejudice sucks regardless... but ACTING upon it is even worse.

Agreed.

The Mad Crapper
03-27-2011, 04:11 PM
Of course this post merited a neg rep with the message "Monkey boy!" from our resident brainless racist, Sad Crap.

Pathetic.

Muh muh monkey!

Donger
03-27-2011, 04:21 PM
Of course this post merited a neg rep with the message "Monkey boy!" from our resident brainless racist, Sad Crap.

Pathetic.

I understand that you don't like that fact, Frankie. But that doesn't change that it is a fact.

patteeu
03-27-2011, 04:39 PM
refugees flee wars all the time...

does that mean they lose all their rights of ownership of their land?

most refugees want to return to their homes but only after hostilities have ceased, but they can't even do it then because of israel's policies...

i guess i'm saying that people forced to leave their homes in wartime do not leave of their own "accord" and it shouldn't be tough luck for them at all...

although being forced to flee your home sounds like enough tough luck already...

If you flee your home during a war and the people who have your back don't win the war, then it's pretty much tough luck. That's pretty standard throughout history, I think. :shrug:

go bowe
03-27-2011, 05:03 PM
If you flee your home during a war and the people who have your back don't win the war, then it's pretty much tough luck. That's pretty standard throughout history, I think. :shrug:
well, when you put it that way...

The Mad Crapper
03-27-2011, 05:06 PM
Remember back in the 90's when Ehud Barak or whatever conceded former Israeli settlements back to the Fakestinians, and the Israeli's left behind Greenhouses, and the idiots destroyed them? Yeah, good times.

AustinChief
03-27-2011, 05:09 PM
If you flee your home during a war and the people who have your back don't win the war, then it's pretty much tough luck. That's pretty standard throughout history, I think. :shrug:

Sortof... I think if they truly FLED then it needs a deeper look...

Now, I agree with you if they left in collusion with invading armies to clear a path or simply left expecting to be welcomed elsewhere... well, then tough titties.

BucEyedPea
03-27-2011, 05:21 PM
I wonder why no one mentions what Britain promised the Arabs during WWI if they would help the Allies defeat the Ottoman Turks?

go bowe
03-27-2011, 05:25 PM
Traceable? They have a deed?

Hey look, to show how absurd all of this is, let's take this to it's endgame, let's say everything the "palestinians" claim is true and they are granted what they want the Jews all leave and Israel is theres.

What do you think they are going to do with it? Turn it into another dysfunctional arab shithole?that assumes that what they want is for the jews to leave...

the "jewish" economy is practically the lifeblood of the west bank and before hamas, gaza, isn't it?

and the jews have a functioning democracy, which is fast becoming the goal of young arabs throughout the region...

it's possible that many displaced palestinians would gladly keep the jews around if they could get back their land...

as a practical matter, how do you compensate the present israeli owners of the land if you take it away and give it back to a palestinian family?

now that i think about it, the right of return sounds like it might be ok in theory, but in practice it would be a non-starter...

hmmmmm...

i gotta stop talking to you righties, i'm getting brainwashed... :eek: :eek: :eek:

go bowe
03-27-2011, 05:26 PM
I wonder why no one mentions what Britain promised the Arabs during WWI if they would help the Allies defeat the Ottoman Turks?
well, honey, why don't you go ahead and mention it for us?

AustinChief
03-27-2011, 05:32 PM
that assumes that what they want is for the jews to leave...

the "jewish" economy is practically the lifeblood of the west bank and before hamas, gaza, isn't it?

and the jews have a functioning democracy, which is fast becoming the goal of young arabs throughout the region...

it's possible that many displaced palestinians would gladly keep the jews around if they could get back their land...

as a practical matter, how do you compensate the present israeli owners of the land if you take it away and give it back to a palestinian family?

now that i think about it, the right of return sounds like it might be ok in theory, but in practice it would be a non-starter...

hmmmmm...

i gotta stop talking to you righties, i'm getting brainwashed... :eek: :eek: :eek:

The prevailing thought is not to relocate anyone but to allow return and to compensate Palestinians for lost property. If you want a "practical" solution, you would need a mini-Marshall plan for Gaza and the West Bank. You wouldn't get your land back but you would get viable land AND external support to create a working infrastructure... I have no problem with this concept... even if it require the USA to fund it. Not a chance in hell the Palestinians would accept such a deal. The hatred in the Arab community is still too focused for a practical solution to take hold. Although, with the massive revolts in the region threatening to topple regimes like the one in Syria... a considerable amount of heat may be taken off Israel fairly soon.

go bowe
03-27-2011, 07:14 PM
The prevailing thought is not to relocate anyone but to allow return and to compensate Palestinians for lost property. If you want a "practical" solution, you would need a mini-Marshall plan for Gaza and the West Bank. You wouldn't get your land back but you would get viable land AND external support to create a working infrastructure... I have no problem with this concept... even if it require the USA to fund it. Not a chance in hell the Palestinians would accept such a deal. The hatred in the Arab community is still too focused for a practical solution to take hold. Although, with the massive revolts in the region threatening to topple regimes like the one in Syria... a considerable amount of heat may be taken off Israel fairly soon.interesting notion, but you're right that the present palestinian leadership and hard-liners won't go for it...

maybe the arab spring will fundamentally change politics in the west bank and gaza as well, who knows?

The Mad Crapper
03-27-2011, 07:15 PM
Agreed :drool:

<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/Fj6Pq-jWthU" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

patteeu
03-27-2011, 07:46 PM
And you spare us your bogus humanitarian posture that's not based on any knowledge of that area but what your Bible tells you. I'd read something else too and educate myself if I were you.

Being ignorant is no way to go through life.

Heed Frankie's message here folks. This is as close to an area of expertise as he has. :Poke:

The Mad Crapper
03-29-2011, 10:39 AM
Heed Frankie's message here folks. This is as close to an area of expertise as he has. :Poke:

Fa fa phooey!

ROFL

http://www.israelnewsagency.com/hamasterrorgazaisrael48770611.html

Easy 6
03-30-2011, 04:21 PM
For the life of me, i'll never understand this issue.

The Jews are from that country, countless & sundry evidence points to this, they were mostly ran off by violence & many also left willingly in a hope of something better. Centuries later, a world body decided it was finally time for these people to have a true home again & so they went back.

That displaced Arabs who had also been there from the beginings of time & without a doubt in my mind i believe they have legit grievances that deserve to be recognized. But instead of recognizing the legitimate right of an entire people to return to their ancestral home, & resolving to settle their problems within the bounds of decency & law... they chose absolute resistance at any cost. It continues today. Yet this (atleast on the surface) is a struggle between two peoples.

Heres where i really start to not get it from the Arab & Persian side... to quote my sentence above 'its between two peoples'. Yet from the farthest reaches of Indonesia, to Iran, to Syria & Lebanon... indeed seemingly every person of the Islamic faith, Sunni, Shia, regime to regime, decade to decade, from one end of the globe to the other... hate the Jew as if they had taken their own land & killed their family. Indeed the only thing that seems to Unite the Muslim like none other is the Jew. The hatred crosses continents, borders, governments, religious sects, on & on i could go.

For decades, different Jewish leaders & American presidents have proposed concrete & good faith offers to Palestinian leaders, maybe not perfect, but undoubtedly good faith efforts at working up a fair deal, that at the least were firm starting points for real resolution. Time & time & time again ad nauseum, they were rebuffed or entered into only halfheartedly by the Palestinians, it was & still seems to be 'absolute victory or death'.

Its just a big, sick, world ending joke to me... these people want nothing more than a miniscule, teeny tiny strip of land where their ancestors first made their mark on the world... Muslim lands stretch far, Far, FAR away to the Jews east & west... yet spanning across all social,political & religious distinctions in the Muslim world... there remains this underlying hatred for a very small group of people, on a very small piece of land.

My deepest thoughts dont even come close to understanding it... the only unifying thread, the only reasoning that makes any sense i can find that runs through this story is, religion. An overriding, burning, seething hatred of a particular group of people by another, for no other reason than that they worship a different God.

As long as i see that kind of blind, irrational & cross borders hatred for one small group of people, on one small piece of land... i know who's back i've got.

I didnt want this to be construed as a ISRAEL CAN DO NO WRONG piece, IMO they do often stomp around too heavily in their jackboots, creating 2 Jew haters for every 1 they kill. You cant keep generation after generation living in a police state & expect much goodwill.

But whats the alternative to the boot? if the Palestinians were free to come & go as they please, accept any shipment they want, a large percentage of them would take every opportunity to make Israel pay, seized arms shipments headed for militants are a weekly occurence. Theres no denying this, given the current state of Palestinian 'leadership'.

Until the most powerful figures in that 'leadership' position relent on the very existence of Israel, i dont see any choice that the Jews have but to play rough.

BEP said in an earlier post, (para) 'its not really hate, its all political'... i have to disagree, when generation after generation of Arab & Persian leaders rabidly denounce them, that message is gobbled up by the populace & taken as fact. Political rhetoric becomes reality on the ground.

I'm reminded of something Saddam Husseins uncle that raised him said...' there are 3 things God should never have created, flies, Jews & Persians' & i'm sure that sentiment is nearly identical among a very large percentage of Persians.

I have to stand by my basic assertion that the only thing a Shia high cleric & a Sunni plumber can agree on is that they hate that damned Jew.

And thats unacceptable.