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View Full Version : Nat'l Security Border issues, Iraq, Afghanistan, Mexico and now Libya


petegz28
03-24-2011, 07:52 PM
Frighteningly obvious to most but often turned away without a second thought by several the facts are we are now engaged in military combat in no less than 3 countries around the world yet our border with Mexico remains wide open for any Tom, Dick and Harry to walk right across.

One really has to ask "WTF?" when we are defending peoples in other countries and in some cases very much guarding the borders of said countries but none of them are our own border. Seriously.

Feds Warn Of Terrorists Sneaking Into U.S. Through Mexico
http://www.judicialwatch.org/blog/2010/may/feds-warn-terrorists-sneaking-through-mexico

The Department of Homeland Security has warned Texas law enforcement agencies that a renowned Al Qaeda terrorist is planning to sneak into the U.S. through Mexico, illustrating that Middle Eastern extremists continue to exploit the porous southern border in their quest to harm Americans.

While alarming, this case is hardly unique but rather part of a growing trend among Islamic terrorists to slip into the U.S. through a notoriously vulnerable 2,000-mile stretch. Mexican drug cartels and Middle Eastern extremists have for years joined forces to smuggle weapons and terrorists into the U.S., though the mainstream media coverage has largely ignored it to focus on the humble, poverty-stricken Mexicans who simply come to seek a better life.

A few years ago the Drug Enforcement Agency (DEA) revealed details of how Islamic terrorists and violent Mexican drug gangs have teamed up to successfully penetrate the U.S. as well as finance terror networks in the Middle East. Additionally, the top Homeland Security official in Texas confirmed that indeed terrorists—with ties to Hezbollah, Hamas and Al Qaeda—have been arrested crossing into the state through the Mexican border.

This proves that the U.S. government has known for years that terrorists are using Mexico as a pathway into the country. In this week’s alert, Homeland Security officials warn Houston authorities to be on the lookout for a member of a Somalia-based Al Qaeda group called Al Shabab who plans to cross the Mexican border. Evidently, he has ties to a Somali man in Texas who was recently indicted for operating a large-scale enterprise that smuggled hundreds of Somalis with terrorist ties from Brazil, through South America and across the Mexican border.

A separate case in Virginia illustrates that these sorts of illicit enterprises are on the rise. In that case a man with admitted ties to Al Shabaab is currently being prosecuted for running an international business that smuggled more than 200 Somalis across the Mexican border. The Somalis are believed to have been disbursed across the country and remain mostly at large, according to the national news report that broke the story.


I am so glad we are more worried about Afghanistan, Iraq and now Libya. :facepalm:

banyon
03-24-2011, 08:32 PM
I've been saying for a while that we need to be out of Iraq, but redeploy about 40% of those troops to the southern border for border enforcement and joint military ops with Mexico to take out these paramilitary narcotics cartels. It's fast becoming the most viable threat against our internal sovereignty.

jamesincanada
03-24-2011, 08:50 PM
I get a major hassle now when I cross at Buffalo. Treat me like a freakin' criminal, when I am only coming over to partake in delicious Buffalo Wings.

petegz28
03-24-2011, 08:52 PM
I've been saying for a while that we need to be out of Iraq, but redeploy about 40% of those troops to the southern border for border enforcement and joint military ops with Mexico to take out these paramilitary narcotics cartels. It's fast becoming the most viable threat against our internal sovereignty.

I don't know that we could trust the Mexican military when then President of Mexico is locking down his southern border while bashing us for wanting to lock down our southern border.

jiveturkey
03-24-2011, 08:52 PM
I've been saying for a while that we need to be out of Iraq, but redeploy about 40% of those troops to the southern border for border enforcement and joint military ops with Mexico to take out these paramilitary narcotics cartels. It's fast becoming the most viable threat against our internal sovereignty.
Works for me.

KC native
03-24-2011, 08:54 PM
I've been saying for a while that we need to be out of Iraq, but redeploy about 40% of those troops to the southern border for border enforcement and joint military ops with Mexico to take out these paramilitary narcotics cartels. It's fast becoming the most viable threat against our internal sovereignty.

More guns isn't the answer. It will only escalate the violence.

banyon
03-24-2011, 08:56 PM
I don't know that we could trust the Mexican military when then President of Mexico is locking down his southern border while bashing us for wanting to lock down our southern border.

Of course we shouldn't trust them. The people we trusted previously and trained are the same people that defected and joined the cartels. That said, we don't have to trust them too much to work against a common enemy, much as,we,did in ww2 with Stalin and the russian troops.

banyon
03-24-2011, 09:01 PM
More guns isn't the answer. It will only escalate the violence.

The cartels control marijuana, cocaine, meth, guns, prostitution, and human trafficking. Is yourproposal to legalize all of those?

petegz28
03-24-2011, 09:03 PM
More guns isn't the answer. It will only escalate the violence.

This is where we disagree. Right now the alternative is to turn a blind eye and in some cases turning over land un-officially to drug trafficers like we have done with part of the national park in in AZ.

KC native
03-24-2011, 09:04 PM
The cartels control marijuana, cocaine, meth, guns, prostitution, and human trafficking. Is yourproposal to legalize all of those?

With the exception of human trafficking and aside from your mischaracterization of their role in gun situation, yes. Prohibition is a failed experiment.

The cartels get their guns here. They pay top dollar so it's easy for them to find people willing to walk into gun shows and stores here in Texas and across the Southwest.

KC native
03-24-2011, 09:07 PM
This is where we disagree. Right now the alternative is to turn a blind eye and in some cases turning over land un-officially to drug trafficers like we have done with part of the national park in in AZ.

Legalize marijuana and the bulk of their profits disappear overnight. Americans grow the best weed on the planet and we grow a lot of it. If the legal restrictions weren't there then there would be no reason to buy mexi-brick shit because there would be more American grown weed.

Legalize cocaine and they would be completely out of business.

petegz28
03-24-2011, 09:11 PM
With the exception of human trafficking and aside from your mischaracterization of their role in gun situation, yes. Prohibition is a failed experiment.

The cartels get their guns here. They pay top dollar so it's easy for them to find people willing to walk into gun shows and stores here in Texas and across the Southwest.

That's why we need to lock down the border. To keep things from going across illegally, regardless of which way it is going.

petegz28
03-24-2011, 09:12 PM
Legalize marijuana and the bulk of their profits disappear overnight. Americans grow the best weed on the planet and we grow a lot of it. If the legal restrictions weren't there then there would be no reason to buy mexi-brick shit.

Legalize cocaine and they would be completely out of business.

Marijuana I can go for legalizing. Cocaine? Never.

KC native
03-24-2011, 09:15 PM
Marijuana I can go for legalizing. Cocaine? Never.

People aren't stupid. They know what drugs do to you. If they want to continue to do them after that then that's their fault.

Our focus should be on the medical side of the problem because drug use is a medical issue.

petegz28
03-24-2011, 09:19 PM
People aren't stupid. They know what drugs do to you. If they want to continue to do them after that then that's their fault.

Our focus should be on the medical side of the problem because drug use is a medical issue.

I say, BS. Cocaine causes too many social side-effects. I would rival them to alcohol but worse. We see how some parents and spouses get when they drink, we don't need them wired out.

KC native
03-24-2011, 09:21 PM
I say, BS. Cocaine causes too many social side-effects. I would rival them to alcohol but worse. We see how some parents and spouses get when they drink, we don't need them wired out.

Legalization doesn't mean unfettered access. Regulation must accompany legalization.

petegz28
03-24-2011, 09:24 PM
Legalization doesn't mean unfettered access. Regulation must accompany legalization.

Disagree here again. Cocaine is just as bad as meth and heroin. Too much BS comes with Cocaine and if it is legal it will be even worse.

banyon
03-24-2011, 09:25 PM
With the exception of human trafficking and aside from your mischaracterization of their role in gun situation, yes. Prohibition is a failed experiment.

The cartels get their guns here. They pay top dollar so it's easy for them to find people willing to walk into gun shows and stores here in Texas and across the Southwest.

I agree with your point on the guns, I was inartful in my phrasing. I mean that they control the black market for guns within Mexico.

Apart from that, I think 1920s alcohol and meth labs are apples and oranges. There is no rational, harmless meth user that I've met.

KC native
03-24-2011, 09:29 PM
Disagree here again. Cocaine is just as bad as meth and heroin. Too much BS comes with Cocaine and if it is legal it will be even worse.

Cocaine is no where close to either. Meth and heroin are physical addictions. Cocaine, while producing harmful side effects, is a mental addiction.

Aside from that, prohibition of any substance doesn't work. We've tried it with alcohol. We've tried it with drugs. All it has done is create a thriving and violent black market.

KC native
03-24-2011, 09:30 PM
I agree with your point on the guns, I was inartful in my phrasing. I mean that they control the black market for guns within Mexico.

Apart from that, I think 1920s alcohol and meth labs are apples and oranges. There is no rational, harmless meth user that I've met.

I would proffer that there aren't very many rational, harmless people no matter what substances are involved.

banyon
03-24-2011, 09:34 PM
KCN, what do you make of these articles:

Pressure to reform Dutch drug laws as gang violence grows

By the time the shooting ended, the A73 south of Nijmegan was littered with bullet casings, and one man lay dead in his car with another sprawled wounded in the passenger seat.

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01116/joints_1116829c.jpg

The survivor refused to talk to police, even though a hired assassin had pursued his vehicle shooting at it without hitting for several miles before finally catching up and riddling it with automatic fire.

Commuters were horrified, but the murder in September was wearily familiar to detectives who have dealt with 25 gangland-style killings in suburban southern Holland over the past three years.

As usual, there was a cannabis connection. The assassin was a hired Bulgarian and his two victims, men in their twenties, had been involved with one of the thousands of cannabis "nurseries" which flourish out of sight in the attics, sheds and spare rooms of small towns – using Dutch horticultural expertise honed from years of growing tomatoes and tulips.

Billions of euros worth of cannabis is grown for export – much of it to Britain – in Holland's modern cannabis industry, which has come a long way since the days of penniless hippies growing pot on Amsterdam houseboats and opening "coffee shops" where stoners could happily puff away in an atmosphere of dope haze, peace and love.

Now there is so much money and violence involved that Holland's police commissioner responsible for cannabis calls it a danger to Dutch society.

Since he started his job a year ago Max Daniel has made it his mission to change Holland's laid-back view of the drug, and as calls mount from politicians and citizens to shut "nuisance" coffee shops he believes that his message is getting through.

Mr Daniel said: "For years this was seen as an innocent business and the tolerant Dutch approach was undoubtedly a successful form of harm reduction – it kept users away from hard drugs.

"But now there is so much money to be made that cannabis is sucking in organised crime gangs from abroad and corrupting legitimate businesspeople – especially lawyers, estate agents and bankers. Money laundering is a massive enterprise, and it is bringing together white-collar professionals and the kind of criminals who deal with heroin, prostitutes and people-smuggling.

"Cannabis is a threat to our democracy."

Mr Daniel said police noticed that the business was starting to change about 15 years ago when criminals realised there were bigger profits from growing cannabis in Holland than smuggling it from Morocco, but the violence has become much worse in the past few years.

Dutch police believe that the underground cannabis growing cottage industry has now become one of their nation's biggest earners of foreign currency, worth an estimated 2.7 billion euros (£2.3 billion) in total – about half as much as Holland's legitimate horticultural business.

The public perception has not kept up with the worsening criminality; most Dutch still regard cannabis as harmless, if not quite respectable. A nationwide poll in November found that 80 per cent of Dutch people opposed the closure of marijuana coffee shops.

The nation's 730 coffee shops, where customers can buy herbal cannabis or hashish without fear of arrest, attract tourists and pay more than 300 million euros in tax annually.

An estimated 40 per cent of the cannabis grown in Holland is sold in them. Police believe some are fronts for organised crime, but the worst of the violence takes place in the cannabis-growing industry where strong-arm gangs prey on novices who think they can make easy money by setting up cannabis farms.

Everything needed can be bought in a "grow shop" – seeds, nutrients, powerful lights and hydration systems. Police say some grow shops sell the addresses of novices to criminal gangs, who months later smash their way in and steal crops or cash.

Cannabis growers can't go to the law for protection, so they arm themselves, electrify doors to shock or electrocute, or buy large dogs for protection. In one case police discovered a trap for intruders, in the form of a pit filled with sharpened stakes dug beneath a doormat. Suburban Holland has never seen anything like it.

Public anger about tolerant drugs laws is mounting along the French and Belgian borders, where rows of coffee shops sell to thousands of drugs tourists every week. They are accused of making a nuisance in the placid and law-abiding small towns.

This month Amsterdam's civic fathers decided to shut 43 of the city's 228 coffee shops as they were close to schools, another sign of growing anxiety about the city's laid-back drugs laws.

So far coffee shop owners have been remarkably relaxed in the face of the growing campaign against them.

"Every few years we hear about how they are going to close us down and about what a threat we are to the nation's morals," said Michael Veling, sitting in a fug of potent cannabis smoke inside his "420" coffee shop on the edge of Amsterdam's red light district.

He dismissed the increasingly vociferous police warnings about organised crime as "scaremongering" and accused the politicians of pandering to a small Christian party which is now part of Holland's ruling coalition.

Mr Veling, a clean-shaven 53 year-old who is head of the coffee shop owners' association, makes an unlikely drugs dealer.

He described himself as bourgeois and pointed out that he paid income tax at Holland's top 52 per cent rate. He insisted that he provided a valued service, not least to the hordes of young English visitors who boost Amsterdam's economy when they stream in every weekend.

At the bar, customers were offered a range of different cannabis products, which since last year cannot be mixed with tobacco which it is now illegal to smoke in public places.

The coffee shop's resident expert, Steven Pratt, a long-haired 32-year-old from Stourbridge, advised customers in the manner of a wine waiter that one brand gave a euphoric high, while smoking another ensured what he described as "a more traditional 'stoned' effect".

His patrons included a mournful-looking Dutch pensioner in a leather jacket who smoked alone at the bar, and a group of rowdy young Italians who couldn't stop giggling.

The police routinely call by to check the scales used to measure cannabis and make sure that no hard drugs are sold.

Last year Amsterdam's policemen were urged by their bosses not to smoke dope in the coffee shops during their time off.

Michelle Martin, 36, an IT worker from Liverpool, was enjoying a joint with her friend Lee Jones, 33, from South Africa in the 420.

"It's not sleazy, it's just a fun place to come and relax and meet people," she said. "I feel safer walking back from here than I do in Liverpool, and I've never seen any signs of organised crime in Amsterdam. Surely closing the coffee shops and forcing cannabis underground would help criminals take over this business?"

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/3997943/Pressure-to-reform-Dutch-drug-laws-as-gang-violence-grows.html


California's medical marijuana crops draw violence
By Staff Reports | Times-Dispatch
Published: November 13, 2010
» 0 Comments | Post a Comment

By Diana Marcum Los Angeles Times

LINDSAY, Calif. -- The father was clearly worried. Behind him, his son was tossing medical marijuana plants into a truck -- part of a hasty move out of this small farm town after a deadly shooting.

On a mid-September night about 11:30 p.m., Robert Craven had gotten a call from his son, who lives a half-mile away down a country road. The son said his neighbors, who also grew medical marijuana, were being robbed. There were four gunmen.

"I flew over there locked and loaded, there was already an ambulance coming down the road," said Craven, 45, a pig farmer and Little League coach.

The son had gone next door armed with a handgun. One of the gunmen grabbed him from behind and the son fired over his shoulder, according to police reports. Authorities deemed the shooting self-defense. He killed a 17-year-old suspected gang member.

Now he's on the run from threats of retaliation.

It's harvest season in California's Central Valley, and that includes medical marijuana. Pot-growing used to be more the domain of free-thinking, freely-puffing places such as Humboldt County along the state's northern coast. But in recent years, with some legal cover, this conservative, agricultural valley has sprouted a new favorite crop and a new crop of troubles.

"There's so much of it that we can't even get a handle on the quantity," said Capt. Jose Flores of the Fresno County Sheriff's Department.

"We're the No. 1 agricultural valley in the world. Then you add this recession where there are people who know how to grow things who are desperate to augment their livelihood, unclear laws that allow growing marijuana, doctors who will write a prescription for anything, and for the past three years it's been open season on marijuana-growing in our rural setting," he said.

Medical marijuana cards might shield growers from law enforcement, but not from robbery. In September in the Central Valley, there were at least five confrontations with growers, two of them fatal. In one Fresno incident, a woman in her 70s used a machete to ward off two thieves. One of the thieves fired a round that wounded an 82-year-old man who lived in the home.

Citing the Valley violence, Fresno County's Board of Supervisors on Sept. 14 passed an emergency ban on outdoor medical marijuana cultivation.

In the Lindsay shooting, police arrested two men on suspicion of robbery and kidnapping. A third is wanted for questioning.

Craven thought medical marijuana cards protected his 22-year-old son and his son's friends. They all had plants, they all had prescriptions (his son's was for migraine headaches). Craven didn't much like their pot-smoking, but they were grown men and he'd been most worried about them getting in trouble with the law. He hadn't thought of robbers.

"I mean, why that house?" he said. "You're going to have trouble finding a place around here that doesn't have a grow."

Across the street, Maria Sanchez, a grandmother, had a medical card. Her squat, showy pot plant grew among her rose bushes.

"I don't smoke it. I use it in tea. I use the leaves and just a tiny bit of bud. I have really bad arthritis," she said.

Her son, Socorro Sanchez, 31, also had a prescription and his own plants.

"I make edibles," he said. "You make marijuana butter and when a recipe calls for oil you replace it with the butter. It's for my epilepsy."

Around the bend, behind a two-story barn-style home was at least a half-acre of marijuana in a partly open shed next to fields of pumpkins, flowers, tomatoes, corn, jalapenos and cilantro.

Up and down country roads near Lindsay, at the base of the Sierra foothills in Tulare County, a soft breeze carried the distinctive odor of budding marijuana plants. Tulare County requires marijuana to be cultivated within a protective structure, but this seems to be often loosely interpreted as arbors or hedges. It's easier and cheaper to grow marijuana outside in the sunshine.

In Fresno, at an outdoor marijuana garden next to Brown's Floral and across the street from the city's oldest park, the scent was even stronger.

Ten-foot-tall plants were easily visible over a ragged wooden fence. A posted sign with a drawing of a gun read: "Never mind the dog. Beware of owner."

"When the wind kicks up, boy do you smell it then," said Reuben Tolentino, who works in the flower shop. "On breezy days we used to say, 'Smells likes trouble.'"

Trouble came Sept. 8 when their neighbor Phayvahn Dydouangphan, 47, shot 40-year-old Stanley Wallace, who later died.

Police say Dydouangphan heard his dogs bark about 6:30 a.m. and found six or seven men in his yard, uprooting plants. He fired a shotgun at them. As they tried to drive away, he fired again, hitting Wallace in the head. Dydouangphan will stand trial on a murder charge.

"I don't know how you could not have known something like this was going to happen," said 70-year-old flower shop owner Donna Brown. "It was like someone put candy in my driveway and told all the kids, 'It's not for you.'"

Richard Hanni, a 49-year-old homeless man who does chores around the shop, said the marijuana garden next-door is atrocious.

"Now, last year, they had a real nice-looking garden. Mostly pumpkins. People did steal a few pumpkins. But the difference is they knew how to grow those right and no one got killed."


http://www2.timesdispatch.com/lifestyles/2010/nov/13/i-mari1005-ar-647768/

banyon
03-24-2011, 09:35 PM
I would proffer that there aren't very many rational, harmless people no matter what substances are involved.

I'm not really concerned with run-of-the-mill irrationality. I mean irrationality that leads to serious harm of others.

petegz28
03-24-2011, 09:35 PM
Cocaine is no where close to either. Meth and heroin are physical addictions. Cocaine, while producing harmful side effects, is a mental addiction.

Aside from that, prohibition of any substance doesn't work. We've tried it with alcohol. We've tried it with drugs. All it has done is create a thriving and violent black market.

BS. They are all physical addictions.

KC native
03-24-2011, 09:41 PM
KCN, what do you make of these articles:

[

Of course that's still going to happen. Until it is legal everywhere then there are going to be elements of criminality.

At this point, neither the Dutch growers nor the California growers can rely on police and the rule of law to protect them. Just because those growers may follow the legit path doesn't mean that there aren't tremendous illicit profit opportunities through black markets.

Portugal has the best policy on drug decriminalization at this point IMO. The Dutch policies, while better than ours, leave much to be desired.

KC native
03-24-2011, 09:43 PM
I'm not really concerned with run-of-the-mill irrationality. I mean irrationality that leads to serious harm of others.

As a prosecutor, I'm sure you see quite a few people that fit this category that aren't meth addicts.

KC native
03-24-2011, 09:43 PM
BS. They are all physical addictions.

Go look it up pete.

banyon
03-24-2011, 09:46 PM
Of course that's still going to happen. Until it is legal everywhere then there are going to be elements of criminality.

At this point, neither the Dutch growers nor the California growers can rely on police and the rule of law to protect them. Just because those growers may follow the legit path doesn't mean that there aren't tremendous illicit profit opportunities through black markets.

Portugal has the best policy on drug decriminalization at this point IMO. The Dutch policies, while better than ours, leave much to be desired.

I think that might be a reasonable speculation on the California shootings (though I don't share it), but the Amsterdam article appears to be completely intra-city, so I don't see how it applies.

petegz28
03-24-2011, 09:46 PM
Go look it up pete.

So you are contending that cocaine does not provide a physical high? I guess the numby gums are just mental? The wired "rush" you get from it isn't physical?

banyon
03-24-2011, 09:48 PM
Go look it up pete.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Is_cocaine_physically_addictive

No. Cocaine is not physically addictive.


And there will be no propaganda in my answer like those other posts. All the info I'm giving is from personal experience and from what my doctor told me when I asked him the same question. We all know cocaine is bad for you blah blah.. the question was "Is cocaine physicaly addictive" and the answer is NO.

It is, however, severely psychologically addictive. Some users experience no withdrawal symptoms, for some people the dependence comes on slowly over weeks or months of use, and for some it like, you snort one line and suddenly your wallet is arguing with your mind and body, while your self control shoots heroin and dozes off on the front porch (you won't be seeing him till tomorrow and he's gonna have some physical withdrawal going on).

But lets get serious here.

Sudden abstinence from a physically addictive substance causes physical harm such as seizures, severe muscle and bone aches, immune system suppression, some can be fatal.

Psychologically substances, cause psychological harm with sudden withdrawn such as severe anxiety, depression, even drug educed schizophrenia type symptoms. These psychological symptoms can often manifest themselves as physical problems like shaking, sweating, panic attacks, irritable bowel syndrome.. the list goes on, but none of these problems will cause physical bodily harm, and there is potential for death from sudden withdrawal, in fact, your body will probably thank you after it's done being all anxious and depressed.

Both types of addiction are caused by similar mechanisms. Addiction occurs when one suddenly abstains from taking a certain exogenous substance (or similar types of substance) for a long period of time (though time period really depends on the person and can develop a lot faster with psychological withdrawal than physical). While the person is on the drug, that person will slow down, or stop the body from producing some endogenous chemicals, or severely decrease the effectiveness of natural bodily chemicals. This causes distress because you're body needs these chemicals to be present in natural quantities and act effectively on the body and mind.

So you can do a gram or so of coke per day for years and quitting cold turkey won't harm your body....... As long as your heart doesn't explode and you liver doesn't crap out and you don't develop one of the many other health problems chronic cocaine use causes.... and what your doing is actually cocaine and not some other strange chemical that disgusting, despicable coke dealers often throw in the mix

Basically, it's the actual use (not the sudden withdrawal) that causes physical damage. And the damage is bad, despite it's moderate social acceptance.

Read more: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Is_cocaine_physically_addictive#ixzz1HZko3Yb4


Yeah, that does sound swell.

banyon
03-24-2011, 09:49 PM
As a prosecutor, I'm sure you see quite a few people that fit this category that aren't meth addicts.

Yes, but I see plenty of people who are who wouldn't be that way sans meth.

We can't organize our criminal laws on the principle "If it doesn't stop the absolute worst people in society then it isn't worth doing."

KC native
03-24-2011, 09:54 PM
Yeah, that does sound swell.

I didn't say it was pleasurable but cocaine isn't physically addictive.

KC native
03-24-2011, 09:56 PM
Yes, but I see plenty of people who are who wouldn't be that way sans meth.

We can't organize our criminal laws on the principle "If it doesn't stop the absolute worst people in society then it isn't worth doing."

I don't suggest we organize them that way either.

The results of the drug war speak for themselves. Drugs are more plentiful, cheaper, and more pure as a result. Over 2 million people are in US jails now (a good portion of them for drugs). We spend billions of $'s a year to stop drugs and throw people in jail. Prohibition is an abject failure by any measure.

banyon
03-24-2011, 09:58 PM
I didn't say it was pleasurable but cocaine isn't physically addictive.

You claimed it wasn't "as bad" as the others, but the physical/psychological distinction doesn't seem that compelling in the descriptions.

banyon
03-24-2011, 10:01 PM
I don't suggest we organize them that way either.

The results of the drug war speak for themselves. Drugs are more plentiful, cheaper, and more pure as a result. Over 2 million people are in US jails now (a good portion of them for drugs). We spend billions of $'s a year to stop drugs and throw people in jail. Prohibition is an abject failure by any measure.

Are they more plentiful and pure as a result?

Isn't california's medical marijuana precisely the opposite of what you claim here? Isn't it more pure, cheaper, and more plentiful after legalization?

I don't disagree with the claim that there are some prison systems unnecessarily overcrowded with drug users, but most of those stats don't factor in drug dealers, gang members, or other dangerous criminals who happen to use drugs. If drugs were legal, many of those individuals would be in custody in any event for other offenses.

KC native
03-24-2011, 10:05 PM
I think that might be a reasonable speculation on the California shootings (though I don't share it), but the Amsterdam article appears to be completely intra-city, so I don't see how it applies.

Missed this.

It the Dutch article, they mention that much of the cannabis is being exported to Britain (mostly). The prohibitionist policies of others are bringing the black markets and associated violence.

As far as California, that is definitely the case. The dispensaries pay anywhere from $2500-$4000 (really rare for the high end of the range, usually toward the lower range) a pound for top shelf shit. That same top shelf shit can be shipped to Texas and fetch anywhere from $3500-$5000. So, if a grower is willing to deal with black market shit then they stand to make a lot more money. Most of the high grade in Texas comes from California. Colorado is starting to push in and push prices down but their shit is inconsistent.

The lower grades usually get exported from Cali because they can't sell it there (too much good shit). So those growers (or fuck ups IMO), if they want to sell their wares, must go to the black market.

KC native
03-24-2011, 10:09 PM
You claimed it wasn't "as bad" as the others, but the physical/psychological distinction doesn't seem that compelling in the descriptions.

I'm not trying to demean cocaine addiction because it is very real and carries huge psychological problems but kicking coke and kicking meth are two different beasts.

I've known addicts of both drugs. The coke addicts success rate of going clean are tremendously higher than meth addicts. I know this is anecdotal but given what I know about how these drugs actually affect people, I would wager confidently that the empirical evidence would back that up.

banyon
03-24-2011, 10:10 PM
I guess I'm just not ready to cede society to the soma zombies yet.

banyon
03-24-2011, 10:11 PM
I'm not trying to demean cocaine addiction because it is very real and carries huge psychological problems but kicking coke and kicking meth are two different beasts.

I've known addicts of both drugs. The coke addicts success rate of going clean are tremendously higher than meth addicts. I know this is anecdotal but given what I know about how these drugs actually affect people, I would wager confidently that the empirical evidence would back that up.

Well, yes I agree, meth is the worst. The success rate is usually @ 23% for multiple rehabs.

On a spectrum though, cocaine is closer to meth and heroin than it is to marijuana.

KC native
03-24-2011, 11:25 PM
Are they more plentiful and pure as a result?

Isn't california's medical marijuana precisely the opposite of what you claim here? Isn't it more pure, cheaper, and more plentiful after legalization?

I don't disagree with the claim that there are some prison systems unnecessarily overcrowded with drug users, but most of those stats don't factor in drug dealers, gang members, or other dangerous criminals who happen to use drugs. If drugs were legal, many of those individuals would be in custody in any event for other offenses.

You just hit the nail on the head. We have many laws that catch these people in other behaviors that put them in prison. Criminalizing a medical problem is a huge misuse of resources.

KC native
03-24-2011, 11:26 PM
Well, yes I agree, meth is the worst. The success rate is usually @ 23% for multiple rehabs.

On a spectrum though, cocaine is closer to meth and heroin than it is to marijuana.

I would agree with that.