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Direckshun
03-28-2011, 12:26 PM
At the risk of sounding too AustinChief-y: woooooooooooooooooooooow.

This one I did not see coming. Syria is a country with a ton of heterogeny that can be exploited by the powers that be, collided together politically until any resistence quells.

Not so, apparently. Yowser.

This one could be a game changer regarding Israel. This is one to watch closely.

(Click the link for photos.)

http://www.bagnewsnotes.com/2011/03/tearing-down-the-statue-of-a-middle-east-dictator-take-2/

Tearing Down a Middle East Dictator Statue – Chapter 2
By Michael Shaw
March 27, 2011

If these dramatic scenes from Deraa, Syria on Friday were reminiscent of anything here in the West, it was the toppling of the Saddam Hussein statue in Baghdad’s Firdos Square. Except the Syrian’s, in dismantling dictator/President al-Assad’s dictator father, didn’t need a U.S. tank to do it.

Oh, and we Tumbl’d this.

(photos: Two cell phone photos and still frame from amateur video via Reuters. caption/s: Protesters gather near the site where the statue of late Syria President Hafez al-Assad was torn down in the southern Syrian city of Deraa, in this picture taken with a mobile phone March 25, 2011. Syrian President Bashar al-Assad was facing the deepest crisis of his 11 years in power after security forces fired on protesters on Friday, adding to a death toll that rights groups have said now numbers in the dozens. Picture taken March 25, 2011. caption 3, first sentence,: This still image taken from amateur video posted on a social media website shows men removing the statue of late Syria President Hafez al-Assad in Deraa March 25, 2011.)

AustinChief
03-28-2011, 01:06 PM
I have been mentioning this in other threads for the past couple days...

and yes, revolt in Syria could be the biggest game changer in the region...

My biggest hope is that the dirtbags fall into utter chaos and can no longer influence Lebanese politics or support Hamas.

Any chance your boy Obama could be convinced to start a carpet bombing campaign there? Hell, I'd be satisfied with a giant crater filled radioactive strip along Syria's borders... anything to keep them from f-ing over their neighbors anymore.

Direckshun
03-28-2011, 01:08 PM
I have been mentioning this in other threads for the past couple days...

and yes, revolt in Syria could be the biggest game changer in the region...

My biggest hope is that the dirtbags fall into utter chaos and can no longer influence Lebanese politics or support Hamas.

Any chance your boy Obama could be convinced to start a carpet bombing campaign there? Hell, I'd be satisfied with a giant crater filled radioactive strip along Syria's borders... anything to keep them from f-ing over their neighbors anymore.

It's near impossible to tell what American action could possibly be at this point. I couldn't begin to say.

AustinChief
03-28-2011, 01:10 PM
It's near impossible to tell what American action could possibly be at this point. I couldn't begin to say.

I doubt we do anything... and we probably shouldn't... my post was just wishful thinking.

Bowser
03-28-2011, 01:13 PM
We need to stay the hell out of it, seeing as how we are stretched paper thin at the moment.

I haven't followed this story. Is this another case of social networking opening the eyes of the citizens to what a bunch of dickbags are running their country and lives?

Direckshun
03-28-2011, 01:13 PM
Yeah.

We have no strings in Syria that we can pull. Arming the rebels is not a plausible option. Arming the dictator there certainly is, but the guy is apparently going to be ousted relatively soon anyway.

My bet: we do nothing, and we ready a big, fancy aid package to Syria during any transition, perhaps with Israel.

Direckshun
03-28-2011, 01:13 PM
I haven't followed this story. Is this another case of social networking opening the eyes of the citizens to what a bunch of dickbags are running their country and lives?

That would be pretty damn close, yes.

AustinChief
03-28-2011, 01:26 PM
Yeah.

We have no strings in Syria that we can pull. Arming the rebels is not a plausible option. Arming the dictator there certainly is, but the guy is apparently going to be ousted relatively soon anyway.

My bet: we do nothing, and we ready a big, fancy aid package to Syria during any transition, perhaps with Israel.

I HIGHLY HIGHLY doubt this... We aren't going to find any pro-America faction in Syria for quite awhile.

Direckshun
03-28-2011, 01:29 PM
I HIGHLY HIGHLY doubt this... We aren't going to find any pro-America faction in Syria for quite awhile.

We don't need pro-America. All we'd need is pro-money.

NewChief
03-28-2011, 01:48 PM
We don't need pro-America. All we'd need is pro-money.

Yeah, I don't know. I'm sort of sick of throwing our money at countries who hate us. You'd think they'd have some appreciation and that it would pay off in foreign relations and good will of the actual people... unfortunately it just seems that the more we get involved, the more we're hated.

KC Dan
03-28-2011, 01:51 PM
We don't need pro-America. All we'd need is pro-money.We have no money, just paper. Maybe China will give them a loan...

Direckshun
03-28-2011, 02:21 PM
Yeah, I don't know. I'm sort of sick of throwing our money at countries who hate us. You'd think they'd have some appreciation and that it would pay off in foreign relations and good will of the actual people... unfortunately it just seems that the more we get involved, the more we're hated.

It's more complex than that.

Allowing Syria to democratize will moderate them in the long run. The short run... it's anybody's guess.

A modest donation every year does wonders to keep anti-American conflict sponsored by the government down. As well as Israel.

I'm not saying this is what we SHOULD do. This is just an option. In reality, I don't have a fucking clue what to do.

JimBaker488
03-28-2011, 02:22 PM
Syria doesn't have much oil, consequently it's not a real big deal.
Bahrain & Yeoman are significantly more strategic, primarily because of their proximity and relevance to the Saudis.

Chocolate Hog
03-28-2011, 02:26 PM
I doubt we do anything... and we probably shouldn't... my post was just wishful thinking.

Is there any valuable resources in Syria? That answers the question.

Direckshun
03-28-2011, 02:28 PM
Is there any valuable resources in Syria? That answers the question.

There's Israel, right next door.

KC Dan
03-28-2011, 02:30 PM
There's Israel, right next door.Oh, and they have human beings getting killed by their gov't just like Libya. Guess they don't count in this case though...

Direckshun
03-28-2011, 02:32 PM
Oh, and they have human beings getting killed by their gov't just like Libya. Guess they don't count in this case though...

You lost me.

KC Dan
03-28-2011, 02:34 PM
You lost me.Billay asked if they had any vauable resources in Syria. You pointed out the Israel proximity and I was just throwing into the mix that if people valued Syria's people resources like we obviously did in Libya (the reason for action) that we are now discounting their "human resources" as valuable.

Chocolate Hog
03-28-2011, 02:36 PM
You lost me.

I think he's trying to say why didn't we send troops into Israel for killing the innocent like we did in Libya.

On topic: Thats a great point about Israel being next door. The majority of people in Syria are Sunni, i'm not sure what the relationship between Sunnis and Israel is like though I'd imagine it's not good. I'm surprised with all these revolutions going on that Iran hasn't tried anything. They're the big boys in the region now thanks to us.

KC Dan
03-28-2011, 02:36 PM
I think he's trying to say why didn't we send troops into Israel for killing the innocent like we did in Libya.

On topic: Thats a great point about Israel being next door. The majority of people in Syria are Sunni, i'm not sure what the relationship between Sunnis and Israel is like though I'd imagine it's not good. I'm surprised with all these revolutions going on that Iran hasn't tried anything. They're the big boys in the region now thanks to us.cartoon post

Direckshun
03-28-2011, 02:42 PM
Billay asked if they had any vauable resources in Syria. You pointed out the Israel proximity and I was just throwing into the mix that if people valued Syria's people resources like we obviously did in Libya (the reason for action) that we are now discounting their "human resources" as valuable.

Well we haven't crossed the "government atrocities committed upon their own people" yet, and certainly not on the scope that Ghadaffi has.

When we start flirting with massacres, we'll revisit that point. Until then, you're comparing apples with gigantic, bloody apples.

Chocolate Hog
03-28-2011, 02:43 PM
cartoon post

I don't get it?

Hydrae
03-28-2011, 02:43 PM
We have no money, just paper. Maybe China will give them a loan...

Through us allowing us to pay the interst on said loan. Hell yeah!

NewChief
03-28-2011, 02:46 PM
It's more complex than that.

Allowing Syria to democratize will moderate them in the long run. The short run... it's anybody's guess.

A modest donation every year does wonders to keep anti-American conflict sponsored by the government down. As well as Israel.

I'm not saying this is what we SHOULD do. This is just an option. In reality, I don't have a ****ing clue what to do.

I don't know about the long term or the short term. I'm not confident in the people's "buy in" for Democracy in the region to be sufficient to overcome the powerful radical elements in their societies who will use these opportunities to consolidate their own power.

AustinChief
03-28-2011, 02:48 PM
Syria doesn't have much oil, consequently it's not a real big deal.
Bahrain & Yeoman are significantly more strategic, primarily because of their proximity and relevance to the Saudis.

Wait for it......................................... WOW.

Are you serious? Syria is probably the most important player in the entire Middle East. An argument could be made that Iran is a bigger player... but the argument would be wrong. Syria has its hands in EVERYTHING and for every ONE thing that you see on the surface, they have 10 more going on behind the scenes. I can not stress enough how important Syria is in the region.

AustinChief
03-28-2011, 02:52 PM
Well we haven't crossed the "government atrocities committed upon their own people" yet, and certainly not on the scope that Ghadaffi has.

When we start flirting with massacres, we'll revisit that point. Until then, you're comparing apples with gigantic, bloody apples.

I'm sure this has been addressed in another thread... but I'm lazy... so here goes..

Yes, Syria has yet to see Libya-like actions with the army intervening against protesters... but Bahrain HAS.. why is Obama not addressing that? Double standard much? Waiting for France to tell him his opinion there as well?

Chocolate Hog
03-28-2011, 02:54 PM
I'm sure this has been addressed in another thread... but I'm lazy... so here goes..

Yes, Syria has yet to see Libya-like actions with the army intervening against protesters... but Bahrain HAS.. why is Obama not addressing that? Double standard much? Waiting for France to tell him his opinion there as well?

You don't really believe that.

'Hamas' Jenkins
03-28-2011, 02:55 PM
Can we please retire the phrase "game changer"?

AustinChief
03-28-2011, 02:58 PM
You don't really believe that.

No, it's a joke.. but it hearkens back to how he makes us appear on the world stage with his "soft power" BS.

go bowe
03-28-2011, 02:58 PM
I'm sure this has been addressed in another thread... but I'm lazy... so here goes..

Yes, Syria has yet to see Libya-like actions with the army intervening against protesters... but Bahrain HAS.. why is Obama not addressing that? Double standard much? Waiting for France to tell him his opinion there as well?
well clearly the difference is that the protesters in bahrain are shia while obama is a sunni...

Direckshun
03-28-2011, 02:59 PM
I'm sure this has been addressed in another thread... but I'm lazy... so here goes..

Yes, Syria has yet to see Libya-like actions with the army intervening against protesters... but Bahrain HAS.. why is Obama not addressing that? Double standard much? Waiting for France to tell him his opinion there as well?

Yeah, double standard. It's that simple.

We have a massive military base there. We have no such sympathies with Ghaddafi.

And I'll say this -- as bad as Bahrain as been, it hasn't touched Libya. By far the bloodiest revolution in the region so far. Bahrain trails Libya by a lot, and even trails Yemen for 2nd place.

AustinChief
03-28-2011, 03:10 PM
Yeah, double standard. It's that simple.

We have a massive military base there. We have no such sympathies with Ghaddafi.

And I'll say this -- as bad as Bahrain as been, it hasn't touched Libya. By far the bloodiest revolution in the region so far. Bahrain trails Libya by a lot, and even trails Yemen for 2nd place.

You are probably correct on Bahrain.. but there is NO WAY for you to know that.. or for me to know any different for that matter. The media controls there are pretty tight... much like Saudi Arabia. Hell, there could be a massive genocide going on in Saudi right now and we may never know.

ClevelandBronco
03-28-2011, 03:14 PM
I don't get it?

We know.

Direckshun
03-28-2011, 03:21 PM
You are probably correct on Bahrain.. but there is NO WAY for you to know that.. or for me to know any different for that matter. The media controls there are pretty tight... much like Saudi Arabia. Hell, there could be a massive genocide going on in Saudi right now and we may never know.

No, I'd way we're certain that Libya's the worst.

The world's too small for massacres to exist in shadows anymore. Burma has complete control of their population, almost like a prison sentence, and we have an extremely acute idea as to what they're doing to their citizens.

Chocolate Hog
03-28-2011, 03:23 PM
We know.

ROFL I have a stalker its cute. Well atleast you're good at something.

ClevelandBronco
03-28-2011, 03:27 PM
ROFL I have a stalker its cute. Well atleast you're good at something.

Sounds exciting. What do I have to do?

AustinChief
03-28-2011, 03:58 PM
No, I'd way we're certain that Libya's the worst.

The world's too small for massacres to exist in shadows anymore. Burma has complete control of their population, almost like a prison sentence, and we have an extremely acute idea as to what they're doing to their citizens.

Actually no we don't... you may THINK we do, but we simply don't. We probably do 12-24 months later but it still takes time to filter. Yes, our ability to know it has increased exponentially with the advent of better tech... but it's nowhere near what you think it. It will be soon though, I'll give you that. We tend to forget that we are smack dab in the middle of a huge technological revolution in the third world. Egypt is a perfect example of a country on the BLEEDING edge... Syria (due to a fairly healthy middle class in comparison to the rest of the middle east) is another country that we can keep accurate tabs on. Bahrain and Yemen are a lot of guesswork and supposition at this point.

I actually don't think you are wrong in your suppositions.. I just thing you have too much confidence in what we "know" is going on in certain countries.

KC Dan
03-28-2011, 04:15 PM
Does Ivory Coast count?

http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2011/03/28/violence-escalates-in-africas-ivory-coast

Thousands of supporters of Ivory Coast’s President Laurent Gbagbo enlisted in his army last week, fueling fears of renewed chaos in West Africa. Gbagbo’s refusal to accept his electoral defeat to Alassane Ouattara in the country’s November presidential election triggered bloody clashes between loyalists and Ouattara supporters.

Rapes and killings, reportedly by Gbagbo’s forces, have left more than 400 dead. Over 50 people were killed last week alone. Gbagbo officials are encouraging young activists to join the army and fight against “the terrorists,” or backers of Ouattara, whom the United States and the rest of the international community recognize as the legitimate leader.

Ouattara called on the United Nations to use force to protect civilians. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton condemned the violence and said those “responsible for ordering or carrying out these heinous acts will have to answer for their actions.” The Obama administration pledged $12 million to the World Food Program to help feed the tens of thousands of Ivorians seeking refuge in neighboring Liberia.

ClevelandBronco
03-28-2011, 04:27 PM
Does Ivory Coast count?

Shit, does Ciudad Juarez, Mexico count?

Direckshun
03-28-2011, 04:42 PM
Actually no we don't... you may THINK we do, but we simply don't. We probably do 12-24 months later but it still takes time to filter. Yes, our ability to know it has increased exponentially with the advent of better tech... but it's nowhere near what you think it. It will be soon though, I'll give you that. We tend to forget that we are smack dab in the middle of a huge technological revolution in the third world. Egypt is a perfect example of a country on the BLEEDING edge... Syria (due to a fairly healthy middle class in comparison to the rest of the middle east) is another country that we can keep accurate tabs on. Bahrain and Yemen are a lot of guesswork and supposition at this point.

I actually don't think you are wrong in your suppositions.. I just thing you have too much confidence in what we "know" is going on in certain countries.

Thing is, they're not my suppositions. They are assumptions that belong to experts in each of the areas we're talking about.

I trust the experts more often than not. I am, after all, your common stupid person. And if they say they have a damn good idea, I think it's usually far more common that they're right.

Donger
03-28-2011, 05:25 PM
Didn't SecState Clinton already basically say that we won't get involved in Syria?

AustinChief
03-28-2011, 06:19 PM
Didn't SecState Clinton already basically say that we won't get involved in Syria?

Sortof.. She basically said that Syria is a concern but not on a scale like Libya... though she sort of warned that we could get involved if it got to that scale... she also made some gaff about Abbas being a "reformer" but nothing serious.

Bwana
03-28-2011, 06:20 PM
We have no money, just paper. Maybe China will give them a loan...

Ding fucking ding, someone gets it.

Direckshun
03-28-2011, 07:04 PM
Didn't SecState Clinton already basically say that we won't get involved in Syria?

Sortof.. She basically said that Syria is a concern but not on a scale like Libya... though she sort of warned that we could get involved if it got to that scale... she also made some gaff about Abbas being a "reformer" but nothing serious.

AC gets it right.

patteeu
03-28-2011, 09:31 PM
I think he's trying to say why didn't we send troops into Israel for killing the innocent like we did in Libya.

On topic: Thats a great point about Israel being next door. The majority of people in Syria are Sunni, i'm not sure what the relationship between Sunnis and Israel is like though I'd imagine it's not good. I'm surprised with all these revolutions going on that Iran hasn't tried anything. They're the big boys in the region now thanks to us.

Hamas is a Sunni organization if that tells you anything.

patteeu
03-28-2011, 09:39 PM
Yeah, double standard. It's that simple.

We have a massive military base there. We have no such sympathies with Ghaddafi.

And I'll say this -- as bad as Bahrain as been, it hasn't touched Libya. By far the bloodiest revolution in the region so far. Bahrain trails Libya by a lot, and even trails Yemen for 2nd place.

How many people died in Libya before our intervention?

patteeu
03-28-2011, 09:41 PM
I actually don't think you are wrong in your suppositions.. I just thing you have too much confidence in what we "know" is going on in certain countries.

This

Chocolate Hog
03-28-2011, 10:17 PM
Hamas is a Sunni organization if that tells you anything.

They are democratically elected. We want Democracy in the middle east right?

Direckshun
03-28-2011, 10:19 PM
How many people died in Libya before our intervention?

Too many.

HonestChieffan
03-28-2011, 10:36 PM
How many people died in Libya before our intervention?

You can't make it a numbers game. That would open up Iran, Darfur, and a slew of other places where killing a lot of folks didn't raise an eyebrow.

Work on feeling and be less analytical, more free flow and vibrant.

patteeu
03-29-2011, 07:09 AM
They are democratically elected. We want Democracy in the middle east right?

Do you understand why I posted that or do I need to spoon feed you, my naive little friend?

patteeu
03-29-2011, 07:11 AM
Too many.

You can't make it a numbers game. That would open up Iran, Darfur, and a slew of other places where killing a lot of folks didn't raise an eyebrow.

Work on feeling and be less analytical, more free flow and vibrant.

Owned

Direckshun
05-11-2011, 11:33 PM
Syria's taken a turn for the worse, guys. I'm not sure how many here on the board care, but you should.

This is a crackdown that makes much of Ghadafi's threats into actual action. And this conflict bears much more influence over Israel than Iran or Egypt ever did.

It's heartbreaking:

Assad has gone mental with deadly violence. He still has the military in his pocket (unlike Mubarack or Ghadafi), and has unleashed them with incredible force.

He's shelling cities.

He's detained over 10,000 protestors. (Think about that.)

He's had the military kill hundreds. Snipers are being instructed to shoot protestors in the head.

Children, women, everyone is getting murdered there.

The Obama administration is showing signs of ratcheting up its rhetoric.

May not be long before other steps become necessary...

This is absolutely horrifying. A people are being held hostage.

I don't see any way for unarmed freedom fighters to defeat a military.

patteeu
05-12-2011, 12:54 AM
Syria's taken a turn for the worse, guys. I'm not sure how many here on the board care, but you should.

This is a crackdown that makes much of Ghadafi's threats into actual action. And this conflict bears much more influence over Israel than Iran or Egypt ever did.

It's heartbreaking:

Assad has gone mental with deadly violence. He still has the military in his pocket (unlike Mubarack or Ghadafi), and has unleashed them with incredible force.

He's shelling cities.

He's detained over 10,000 protestors. (Think about that.)

He's had the military kill hundreds. Snipers are being instructed to shoot protestors in the head.

Children, women, everyone is getting murdered there.

The Obama administration is showing signs of ratcheting up its rhetoric.

That should do the trick.

ForeverChiefs58
05-12-2011, 01:05 AM
Syria's taken a turn for the worse, guys. I'm not sure how many here on the board care, but you should.

This is a crackdown that makes much of Ghadafi's threats into actual action. And this conflict bears much more influence over Israel than Iran or Egypt ever did.

It's heartbreaking:

Assad has gone mental with deadly violence. He still has the military in his pocket (unlike Mubarack or Ghadafi), and has unleashed them with incredible force.

He's shelling cities.

He's detained over 10,000 protestors. (Think about that.)

He's had the military kill hundreds. Snipers are being instructed to shoot protestors in the head.

Children, women, everyone is getting murdered there.

The Obama administration is showing signs of ratcheting up its rhetoric.

May not be long before other steps become necessary...

This is absolutely horrifying. A people are being held hostage.

I don't see any way for unarmed freedom fighters to defeat a military.


Situation in syria imo could be the key to change everything. If syria falls, it would open iran up to the change it has resisted for years. That would have a domino affect throughout the region with lebanon back through egypt again. That part of the world needs more than anything to see, feel and taste freedom. The only thing we can really do is help them get there through the vacuum that is left by showing they have a friend waiting for them to help prop up freedom and democracy.

It all sounds great, but israel and the west should all do what we can to insure the extremists don't take a foot hold of the power vacuum that will be waiting for them.

ForeverChiefs58
05-12-2011, 01:07 AM
I have been mentioning this in other threads for the past couple days...

and yes, revolt in Syria could be the biggest game changer in the region...

My biggest hope is that the dirtbags fall into utter chaos and can no longer influence Lebanese politics or support Hamas.

Any chance your boy Obama could be convinced to start a carpet bombing campaign there? Hell, I'd be satisfied with a giant crater filled radioactive strip along Syria's borders... anything to keep them from f-ing over their neighbors anymore.

oh yeah, and this.

ForeverChiefs58
05-12-2011, 01:12 AM
we have to do something to make people realize hamas, hezbollah, Islamic Jihad and other groups are the wrong paths to take. That region just doesn't get it that these groups are radical and against progress. Or maybe they just don't care.

Amnorix
05-12-2011, 07:32 AM
I was reading that if Syria falls, EVERYTHING is in play, with tremendous uncertainty whether in the long run it will prove to be good or bad for us and "the West" in general. Certainly it is true that the Syrian regime is closely allied with Iran and dances with Hamas and Hizbollah, which is bad. They have also, however, left the Golan Heights alone for 40 years and have recently (and I don't mean in the last few weeks) taken steps to close the western border of Iraq in a manner that helps America's efforts there.

Syria is also 75% Sunni, but with a government that is Shia, opening up the possibility of mass reprisals within the country if the government should fall. At this point, however, it might be hard to fault them if they are able to overthrow the government.

In any event, the article that I read suggested that Syria is a very important domino in the middle of the Middle East power structure and if it falls, the repurcussions could be extremely widespread.

Amnorix
05-12-2011, 07:33 AM
That should do the trick.

How many boots would you put on the ground? Tomahawk strikes first, I'm assuming? Time to implement the draft yet?

I assume you'd agree that American military power can't solve every problem in the world simultaneously, but from your rhetoric on here, I'm uncertain.

RedNeckRaider
05-12-2011, 07:46 AM
we have to do something to make people realize hamas, hezbollah, Islamic Jihad and other groups are the wrong paths to take. That region just doesn't get it that these groups are radical and against progress. Or maybe they just don't care.
Changing minds in the middle east is a silly wish. We will just have to deal with whatever turds float to the top~

Chief Faithful
05-12-2011, 08:12 AM
Interesting how silent Russia, Syria's biggest ally, has been.

durtyrute
05-12-2011, 09:23 AM
We will be 'in there like swimwear" lol

patteeu
05-12-2011, 10:17 AM
How many boots would you put on the ground? Tomahawk strikes first, I'm assuming? Time to implement the draft yet?

I assume you'd agree that American military power can't solve every problem in the world simultaneously, but from your rhetoric on here, I'm uncertain.

I just thought it was funny that after rattling off a list of atrocities being committed by the Syrian regime, the next line was about how Obama was going to change the font on his teleprompter to ALL CAPS.

Amnorix
05-12-2011, 10:19 AM
I just thought it was funny that after rattling off a list of atrocities being committed by the Syrian regime, the next line was about how Obama was going to change the font on his teleprompter to ALL CAPS.

Yeah, don't think rhetoric is going to solve this, not matter how impressive the speaker.

:D

Saul Good
05-12-2011, 10:39 AM
I just thought it was funny that after rattling off a list of atrocities being committed by the Syrian regime, the next line was about how Obama was going to change the font on his teleprompter to ALL CAPS.

He's just trying to figure out who's ass to kick.

Direckshun
05-12-2011, 12:51 PM
I just thought that after hearing about the horrific price innocent freedom fighters are paying to fight a losing battle for freedom, that I'd react with a cheap political rimshot because that's really all I know.

FYP

patteeu
05-12-2011, 12:58 PM
Did Obama just not understand the importance of Syria with respect to the greater jihadist problem in the middle east when he decided to take his eye off the ball and get us bogged down in the Libyan sideshow or is there some personal vendetta against Kadafi involved? In other words, is this an example of incompetence or putting personal/political interests ahead of national interests?

go bowe
05-12-2011, 01:33 PM
Did Obama just not understand the importance of Syria with respect to the greater jihadist problem in the middle east when he decided to take his eye off the ball and get us bogged down in the Libyan sideshow or is there some personal vendetta against Kadafi involved? In other words, is this an example of incompetence or putting personal/political interests ahead of national interests?where i have i heard that line before?

as i recall, similar charges were leveled at president bush by the "other" side...

ForeverChiefs58
05-12-2011, 01:48 PM
Syrian troops surround city known for 1982 revolt


BEIRUT – Syrian soldiers and tanks executing a nationwide crackdown on regime opponents surrounded the city of Hama on Thursday, which President Bashar Assad's father laid waste to in 1982 to stamp out an earlier uprising, an activist said. Forces also used clubs to disperse 2,000 demonstrators on a northern university campus.

Assad, who inherited power from his father in 2000, is trying to crush an uprising that exploded nearly two months ago and is now posing the gravest threat to his family's 40-year ruling dynasty. The level of violence is intensifying as forces move into more volatile areas, and the United States called the crackdown "barbaric."

Human rights activist Mustafa Osso said troops backed by tanks have deployed around the central city of Hama, known for the bloody 1982 revolt crushed by the regime, and security forces were detaining people.

In another echo of that earlier uprising, the Syrian army shelled residential areas in central and southern Syria on Wednesday, killing 18 people, a human rights group said.

The shelling of neighborhoods evoked memories of Assad's father and predecessor, Hafez, whose most notorious act was shelling Hama in 1982.

He leveled the city to crush a Sunni uprising there, killing 10,000 to 25,000 people, according to Amnesty International estimates. Conflicting figures exist and Syria has made no official estimate.

Other activists said security forces used clubs to disperse about 2,000 demonstrators late Wednesday at the university campus in Aleppo, Syria's largest city.

The intensifying military operation and arrest raids seemed to be an effort to pre-empt another day of expected protests throughout the country on Friday.

More than 750 people have been killed and thousands detained since the uprising against Assad's autocratic rule began in mid-March. The revolt was touched off by the arrest of teenagers, inspired by uprisings in Egypt and Tunisia, who scrawled anti-regime graffiti on a wall.

Syria's private Al-Watan newspaper reported Thursday that Assad met for four hours with a delegation of Sunni clerics from Hama. It said the clerics asked the president to solve some problems pending since 1982, such as people who have been living in exile since then.

"President Assad accepted to study the case as long as it includes people who are known to be loyal to the nation," the paper said.

Since the uprising began, authorities have been making announcements about reforms on Thursdays in an attempt to head off protests on Friday, the main day for demonstrations in the Arab world.

This week was no different: The state-run news agency, SANA, said Prime Minister Adel Safar introduced a new program to employ 10,000 university graduates annually at government institutions.

Unemployment in Syria stands at about 20 percent.

Rami Abdul-Rahman, director of the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights, said Thursday that arrests are continuing throughout the country before expected protests on Friday.

"Authorities are detaining any person who might demonstrate," he said.

In the northern city of Deir el-Zor, authorities placed cameras inside and outside the Osman bin Afan mosque, where many worshippers were demonstrating after the Friday prayers, he said.

Abdul-Rahman added that many former detainees were forced to sign documents reading that they were not subjected to torture and that they will not take part in future "riots."

Assad is determined to crush the uprising despite international pressure and sanctions from Europe and the United States.

In Washington, White House press secretary Jay Carney condemned the violence. "The Syrian government continues to follow the lead of its Iranian ally in resorting to brute force and flagrant violations of human rights and suppressing peaceful protests," he said, "and history is not on the side of this kind of action."

State Department spokesman Mark Toner called the Syrian attacks "barbaric," adding, "We don't throw the word 'barbaric' around here very often."

Officials in the Obama administration, which had sought to engage Syria after it was shunned under former President George W. Bush, said Tuesday the U.S. is edging closer to calling for an end to the long rule of the Assad family.

The officials said the first step would be to say for the first time that Assad has forfeited his legitimacy to rule, a major policy shift.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110512/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_syria

ForeverChiefs58
05-12-2011, 01:52 PM
Syria says Assad's rule has passed "dangerous moment"


AMMAN/BEIRUT (Reuters) – Syria's government said the threat to President Bashar al-Assad from the seven-week-old uprising was receding as security forces tightened control of hotbeds of protest across the country.

"I hope we are witnessing the end of the story," presidential adviser Bouthaina Shaaban told a New York Times correspondent allowed into the country for a few hours. Most foreign journalists have been banned.

"I think now we've passed the most dangerous moment."

Prominent human rights campaigner Suhair al-Atassi said from Damascus: "This regime is playing a losing card by sending tanks into cities and besieging them. Syrians have seen the blood of their compatriots spilled. They will never return to being nonpersons."

Atassi said a demonstration against Assad's autocratic rule erupted Tuesday in Homs, Syria's third city, despite a heavy security clampdown, after tanks stormed several neighborhoods Sunday and three civilians were killed.

Another human rights campaigner in Homs said 1,500 people had fled their homes in three villages near the city where tanks had been deployed. One woman was killed by the military forces which swept into the area Sunday, he added.

In the eastern city of Qamishli, around 1,000 people marched in a night demonstration demanding the lifting of the sieges of Homs, Banias and southern cities and towns encircled by tanks.

Four civilians in the southern town of Tafas were killed as security forces widened a campaign of arrests, a human rights campaigner in the region said, adding that 300 people had been detained since tanks entered Tafas Saturday.

DIALOGUE?

Leading activist Louay Hussien, one of four opposition figures who has met Shaaban over the last two weeks to explore the possibility of a dialogue said:

"We said that the authorities should allow peaceful protesting and allow sit-ins so that the protesters can agree on political programs and choose their representatives who will negotiate with the authorities," Hussien said.

Officials have blamed most of the violence on "armed terrorist groups," backed by Islamists and foreign agitators, and say around 100 soldiers and police have also been killed in the unrest.

Shaaban said armed militants had manipulated "the legitimate demands of the people," calling them "a combination of fundamentalists, extremists, smugglers, people who are ex-convicts and are being used to make trouble."

Assad, who has maintained authoritarian Baath Party rule since inheriting power from his father in 2000, held out the prospect of political reform when unrest first erupted in March but turned to the military two weeks ago to crush dissent.

In Washington, U.S. State Department spokesman Mark Toner said the Syrian government crackdown would only strengthen the determination of protesters.

"What's apparent from the events of the past weeks is that the Syrian government's repression in towns like Deraa and Banias simply stirs up new violence and frankly strengthens the resolve of the Syrian people's demands," he said.

"False government claims of reform such as lifting the emergency law while expanding the number of persons arbitrarily arrested is also no answer to Syria's problems," he added, saying security forces had moved into Jassem in the south.

Adding to international criticism, Turkish Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan, who has had close ties to Assad, disputed the official Syrian account of the violence.

Erdogan said more than 1,000 civilians had died and he did not want to see a repeat of the 1982 Hama violence or the 1988 gassing of Iraqi Kurds in Halabja, when 5,000 people died.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20110510/wl_nm/us_syria_124

ForeverChiefs58
05-12-2011, 01:54 PM
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ForeverChiefs58
05-12-2011, 01:55 PM
Clinton: U.S. looking to raise pressure on Syria

NUUK, Greenland (Reuters) – Washington and its allies will hold Syria to account for "brutal reprisals" against protesters, Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said Thursday, but stopped short of saying President Bashar al-Assad should go.

Clinton, in Greenland for talks with foreign ministers from other countries with Arctic territory, said the United States and its allies were looking for ways to raise pressure on Assad to agree to democratic reforms to end a seven-week uprising.

"President Assad faces increasing isolation and we will continue to work with our international partners in the EU and elsewhere on additional steps to hold Syria responsible for its gross human rights abuses," she said.

"I think it's fair to say that we're going to hold the Syrian government accountable."

The Obama administration has been sharply criticized by human rights groups and others for what they say has been a tepid response to Syria's unrest following much stronger U.S. support for popular uprisings in Egypt and Libya.

The United States, like Europe, has imposed economic sanctions on a handful of senior Syrian officials deemed most responsible for the violence, not yet including Assad himself.

The response contrasts notably with Libya, where U.S. and European forces are carrying out air strikes they say will not end until leader Muammar Gaddafi leaves power.

Asked if Assad had lost his legitimacy to lead Syria, Clinton demurred but said the United States had watched with "great consternation and concern as events have unfolded under his leadership."

"Despite overwhelming international condemnation, the Syrian government continues to exact brutal reprisals against its own citizens," she said, citing unlawful detention, torture, and denial of medical care to wounded persons.

Syrian forces spread through southern towns Thursday and tightened their grip on two other cities, broadening a military crackdown on protests against Assad's government.

Clinton indicated the United States could expand sanctions in concert with allies. The European Union listed 13 Syrian officials on a sanctions list Tuesday, including a brother of Assad but not Assad himself. Diplomats say the aim is to introduce punitive measures gradually.

"We are working with our international partners to make as strong a case as possible to sanction those who are leading and implementing the policies that are coming from the government," Clinton said.

Danish Foreign Minister Lene Espersen, speaking at an appearance with Clinton in Greenland, said the Europeans too were looking at tougher measures.

"We're calling for the Syrian leadership to actually deliver on the promises that they've made...about political reforms and national dialogue," Espersen said. "If the Syrian leadership does not deliver on reform, we are prepared to tighten the sanctions against the Syrian regime."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20110512/wl_nm/us_syria_clinton_2

patteeu
05-12-2011, 02:52 PM
where i have i heard that line before?

as i recall, similar charges were leveled at president bush by the "other" side...

Yes, that's my (perhaps, non-obvious) point. I wonder if the Direckshun's of the world can find a justification for this policy or if they'd be just as critical of their guy as they were of mine.

Amnorix
05-12-2011, 03:08 PM
Did Obama just not understand the importance of Syria with respect to the greater jihadist problem in the middle east when he decided to take his eye off the ball and get us bogged down in the Libyan sideshow or is there some personal vendetta against Kadafi involved? In other words, is this an example of incompetence or putting personal/political interests ahead of national interests?


We're hardly "bogged down" in Libya, and we only entered the situation, by all reports, as a result of the pleading of both our European allies and the Arab league. And, at the time our very limited Libyan investment was made, the Syrian situation was very much in flux.

Hardly comparable to the investment made in Iraq when it was KNOWN that Afghanistan needed to be, and was, a primary target for US military and diplomatic efforts due to the presence of the Taliban and their sheltering of the individuals who launched an attack on our oil.

Analogy fail.

patteeu
05-12-2011, 03:12 PM
We're hardly "bogged down" in Libya, and we only entered the situation, by all reports, as a result of the pleading of both our European allies and the Arab league. And, at the time our very limited Libyan investment was made, the Syrian situation was very much in flux.

Hardly comparable to the investment made in Iraq when it was KNOWN that Afghanistan needed to be, and was, a primary target for US military and diplomatic efforts due to the presence of the Taliban and their sheltering of the individuals who launched an attack on our oil.

Analogy fail.

Yeah, we can walk away any time we want. You guys on the left don't seem to care about national prestige and the impact a lack of commitment has on our future efforts at diplomacy. Analysis fail.

The_Doctor10
05-12-2011, 08:21 PM
Do they have any oil? If so, another excuse to gauge people on gas prices is just around the corner. Yay!

Direckshun
05-13-2011, 12:23 AM
Yes, that's my (perhaps, non-obvious) point. I wonder if the Direckshun's of the world can find a justification for this policy or if they'd be just as critical of their guy as they were of mine.

Mmmm... yes. I'd wonder'd how long it'd be before you try to equate Libya with Iraq.

Well done sir. In that you've fulfilled the empty rhetorical device without fail.

Bowser
05-13-2011, 01:10 AM
Wait, we're "bogged down" in Libya?

Direckshun
05-13-2011, 01:53 AM
Wait, we're "bogged down" in Libya?

It's Obama's Iraq, after all.

patteeu
05-13-2011, 06:14 AM
Wait, we're "bogged down" in Libya?

Sure, why not? We were "bogged down" in Iraq even though we could have left at any time, right?

patteeu
05-13-2011, 06:18 AM
Mmmm... yes. I'd wonder'd how long it'd be before you try to equate Libya with Iraq.

Well done sir. In that you've fulfilled the empty rhetorical device without fail.

How come you didn't answer my question? Why did Obama get us distracted in Libya when there are so much more important things going on in the Arab world?

Amnorix
05-13-2011, 07:09 AM
Sure, why not? We were "bogged down" in Iraq even though we could have left at any time, right?

How can you be bogged down where you have few or no boots actually IN the mud?

Fritz88
05-13-2011, 07:16 AM
Syria is very complicated.

They are Iran's puppy in the region and at the same time, they have enough cards to make Israel not want a regime change in Syria.

Bashar Asad has gone mad. I personally don't think that he's running the show entirely, he is just not capable enough to handle this mess. It's his brother Maher and the Makhlouf family that are running the show.

The U.S. is being very delicate in handling the situation. Syria can cause hell in Iraq and Lebanon.

patteeu
05-13-2011, 09:59 AM
How can you be bogged down where you have few or no boots actually IN the mud?

When people use the phrase "bogged down" they don't mean literally stuck in the mud of a bog. LOL